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不談玄學就是"},{"start":195.732,"end":213.93,"text":"這裡面的原因我覺得是值得探究啦因為老是撞這個地方這很怪那當然今年一月這個是有媒體報導是有開啟這個輔助駕駛系統那本席啊從這一題裡面我其實很擔憂一個事情"},{"start":215.307,"end":231.897,"text":"科技一直在發展跟進步所以未來這個運劇當中它所包括以後AI的運用或者等等它勢必會越來越多的對人類看起來更方便"},{"start":232.737,"end":258.251,"text":"但是他的安全性他必須跟因為他的安全性不管你雷達不管你用攝像鏡頭就簡單講現在我們可預知的科技的概念跟體系他基本上跟環境都產生很大的關係那我當然不知道這個雲南會調查這個結果是不是因為譬如說標線或者其他的裡面的環境的裝置物讓"},{"start":259.87,"end":278.087,"text":"輔助系統去誤判這個我不知道因為要等你們專家來調查出那個結果但是這個結果啊還要一段時間你七月才公布你所收集到的這些事實狀況那你要再進行調查可能又要一段滿場的時間可是這些科技"},{"start":279.64,"end":291.933,"text":"國人同胞每天正在使用輔助駕駛系統大家也逐漸的熟悉而且我相信很多人或許他就很習慣在某一些時段或者某一些路段他就開啟了輔助駕駛系統"},{"start":294.076,"end":313.007,"text":"那如果這樣的問題不趕快解決我覺得這個其實是一件蠻令人擔憂的事情蠻令人擔憂因為大家都在做這個事情那我講過它跟環境會有關係嘛因為它是電腦所以它透過雷達透過攝像鏡頭然後讀取快速判讀"},{"start":313.8,"end":337.813,"text":"然後這個輔助系統他就會依照這個判讀的結果去做操作但如果這個環境我們沒有辦法細緻的去掌握到特別是一個地方老是撞那裡那這個有一點危險就簡單講就是說下一個會不會又開了如果假設他跟輔助系統的判讀錯誤有關"},{"start":339.724,"end":360.992,"text":"那會不會下一個在那個地方開輔助駕駛系統的人又再來一次所以有時候有一些案子它是有急迫性的就是說它可能對你其他運具或載具的這些使用發生事故 大型事故或許你用比較長的時間 因為它不常被發生"},{"start":364.306,"end":383.578,"text":"所以或許它時效性上可以容許你做一個比較完整性依照你們的進程跟流程去做調查但是本席比較擔心的是老是撞這裡然後這裡面又有一些是開了輔助系統我不知道這有沒有關聯性但我覺得像這種事情應該是不是有一種機制"},{"start":385.134,"end":410.145,"text":"你們應該要儘速的去做至少把這個可能性先排除說應該不是開輔助系統的問題所以主委你現在懂我在講什麼嗎這個可不可以先來去調查了解或者做一點排除或者讓大家安心或者你警告大家最好這裡不要開輔助系統因為它有可能是原因之一"},{"start":413.077,"end":435.924,"text":"這個分析的非常透徹這個案子的調查重點我們是分成三個組在做一個道路環境分組還有車輛跟紀錄器的分組還有一個操作生涯因素因素其中有關道路環境分組裡面特別講要檢視道路跟它的交通工程設計它是不是符合法規就剛剛委員講的跟我們的方向是一致的"},{"start":436.952,"end":461.436,"text":"所以我的意思是說至少你如果沒有你一定要等到這個115年以後才可能把那個調查但是你們預估嘛那可不可以再事先做一點警示或者是狀況的排除就它不是最終報告但優先去把它做一點了解跟讓提醒我覺得這個可不可以"},{"start":462.318,"end":483.48,"text":"這個案子我們已經立案調查那過程中我們有跟高空局有在聯絡高空局事實上他已經對這個路口已經開始在看要怎麼改善他已經在研究了所以是不是輔助系統不知道所以我的意思就是說這是攸關人命"},{"start":484.451,"end":504.796,"text":"所以我但是我知道你們有程序你們要嚴謹因為你們講的話或許會對社會或者對產業的有一點衝擊對但是我的意思還是老話一句人命無價如果說你說一件案子老是就是就發生過一次可是在你的手上就七次都撞同一個地方"},{"start":506.292,"end":531.098,"text":"這件事情我覺得不能夠跟一般的案件等閒失之沒有錯好不好主委你去研究一下看什麼方式去做一點提示提醒或者說確定排除這個應該可不可以提早一下可不可以我們可以研究一下謝謝那第二件齁這個就是我們助理在非安報告裡面早上好像委員有提到這個耳機掉掉到那個椅子那個事情"},{"start":532.352,"end":556.384,"text":"所以這個是這樣子 像這些東西第一個我們不可能禁止大家不戴耳機然後你也不可能禁止不戴那種單顆會掉落那種耳機的確是很容易掉落 我自己使用的經驗來講我也常常會不小心就掉落那要不要制定一個系統 因為後來這個案子的處理方式是拆椅子"},{"start":557.332,"end":581.257,"text":"就是叫飛機先不要飛因為那個耳機裡面有電池嘛那怕產生危險所以我們叫飛機不要飛航空公司也算負責叫飛機不要飛然後拆椅子拆完之後把那個耳機取出然後裝回去然後再飛那像這種案子啊這個以後我認為他掉落的機率蠻高的"},{"start":582.685,"end":597.451,"text":"那這個要不要我們來有一套SOP或者使用什麼樣的方式可以來比拆椅子更可以快速排除因為你動不動一個不小心掉了那飛機可能一耽誤又一個小時兩個小時甚至更久"},{"start":598.311,"end":621.823,"text":"那這個對我們在航空業或者說對旅客的甚至商務的方便性跟效率上面這個都會造成很大的衝擊所以我的看法是第一個不可能叫人家不戴耳機第二個不可能影響飛安安全我們就給他飛了所以我們一定要有第三種選擇就是怎麼樣可以快速排除所以"},{"start":623.061,"end":648.286,"text":"醫院會是不是找至少國行裡面椅子的設計它有多少種樣態那這些樣態可能如果發生這種情況它掉落的位置在什麼位置有可能可以做什麼樣處理這個是不是可以來做一個SOP或者一個簡單的指引這種東西我們可以來研議看看好不好或是把它綠定出來對對對就是建議他們找大家來討論一下看這個因為這個"},{"start":650.593,"end":675.745,"text":"諸葛我不知道你有沒有使用啦你應該沒有使用啦對像我就是有使用的可能我年紀還算輕啦不知道這沒有老人家的問題啦很多老人家我看他也在用因為我在公園看到那個老人家在運動的時候他也帶跟我相同的耳機可是我覺得這個耳機真的容易掉真的容易掉那像我們家買這種耳機啊最常發生的原因就是掉了一個"},{"start":677.017,"end":700.535,"text":"就是小朋友不小心掉了或者我自己也不小心就掉了掉了一顆所以我覺得掉落是會容易會容易發生的事情所以研議一下啦好沒問題我們來先走幾個開會對這個應該不宜拖太久啦看怎麼處理好不好三個月半年內就把他把這個排除的方式有一個指引啦是謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":625,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時19分）謝謝主席，大家早。請林主委。"],["主席：請運安會林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委早。有兩個議題想跟你分享一下一些意見跟看法，第一個是今天早上或許有委員問到，關於楊梅休息站的分隔島，我隨便查了一下，這幾年應該有好幾起事故都是撞這個分隔島，最新的就是在今年1月25日，有人撞了分隔島之後起火造成傷亡。主委大概知道這個事情嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：對，我知道。"],["蔡委員其昌：你們也開始著手進行調查了？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：公路組應該有在調查喔？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：現在調查的進度是什麼？"],["曾組長仁松：跟委員報告，目前我們已經去蒐集相關的資料，並且把電動車拖吊到消防署的場地裡面，去做車輛的電池檢查。我們預計在7月份的時候出一個事實資料的報告，會再去做分析跟審查，所以最晚會在明年7月完成這個調查報告的發布。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，組長，每次撞那一個分隔島的都是電動車嗎？都是含有自動駕駛還是輔助駕駛系統的車子嗎？就你們現行的資料來看，我先不管那個調查最後的結果跟原因，以目前可見的，那些撞上去的是不是都是電動車，或是輔助駕駛系統的車子？"],["曾組長仁松：跟委員報告，我們已經蒐集歷次的資料……"],["蔡委員其昌：那裡撞了幾次了？根據你現在手上有的資料，那裡撞了幾次了？就那一個分隔島，每次都是撞那一個……"],["曾組長仁松：對，目前大概……今天我手上掌握的大概有7件。"],["蔡委員其昌：7件？"],["曾組長仁松：對，有一個是遊覽車……"],["蔡委員其昌：也撞那一個？"],["曾組長仁松：對，也是撞那個。"],["蔡委員其昌：這7件的車輛是否都是自駕系統或者有輔助駕駛系統的？"],["曾組長仁松：有3件是有開啟的，駕駛說他有開啟……"],["蔡委員其昌：先不管他有沒有開啟，是不是都是這樣的車子？"],["曾組長仁松：並不是，一般的車輛也會去……"],["蔡委員其昌：那你不覺得很弔詭嗎？一個分隔島被撞了7次，就你持有的資料，至少它就被撞了7次，你會不會覺得這個……現在不是7月，不談玄學啦！我覺得這裡面的原因是值得探究的，因為老是撞這個地方，這很怪！","今年1月的案例，媒體報導他是有開啟輔助駕駛系統。從這一題裡面，本席其實很擔憂一個事情，科技一直在發展跟進步，所以未來的運具，包括以後AI應用勢必會越來越多，看起來對人類更方便，但是它的安全性必須跟……對於安全性，不管你是用雷達、不管你是用攝像鏡頭，簡單講，現在我們可預知的科技概念跟體系基本上跟環境都產生很大的關係。我不知道運安會調查結果是不是因為……譬如標線或者是其他環境裝置物讓輔助系統誤判，這個我不知道，因為要等你們專家調查出結果，但是這個結果還要一段時間，你們7月才公布你們所蒐集到的事實狀況，還要再進行調查，這可能又要一段蠻長的時間。","對於這些科技，國人同胞每天正在使用，大家也逐漸熟悉輔助駕駛系統，而且我相信或許有很多人很習慣在某一些時段或者某一些路段開啟輔助駕駛系統，如果這樣的問題不趕快解決，我覺得這其實是一件蠻令人擔憂的事情，因為大家都在做這個事情。我講過，它跟環境會有關係，因為它是電腦，所以它透過雷達、透過攝像鏡頭讀取，快速判讀之後告訴輔助系統，它就會依照這個判讀結果去操作，但如果我們沒有辦法細緻的掌握環境，特別是老是撞到那個地方，這個有點危險啦！簡單來講，下一個會不會又開了……假設它跟輔助系統的判讀錯誤有關，會不會下一個在那個地方開輔助駕駛系統的人又再來一次？所以有時候有一些案子是有急迫性的，可能對於其他運具或載具的使用，當發生大型事故，或許你們會用比較長的時間，因為它不常發生，也或許它時效性長，可以容許你們依照進程跟流程去做比較完整的調查，但是本席比較擔心的是，老是撞這裡，然後又有一些是開了輔助系統。我不知道這有沒有關聯性，但這種事情是不是應該要有一種機制？你們應該要儘速去做，至少把這個可能性先排除──應該不是開輔助系統的問題。主委你現在懂我在講什麼嗎？這個可不可以先去調查、了解？或者做相關排除之後讓大家安心，還是你警告大家在那裡最好不要開輔助系統，因為它有可能是原因之一。"],["林主任委員信得：對，委員分析的非常透澈，關於這個案子的調查重點，我們分成三個組在做，一個是道路環境分組，還有車輛跟紀錄器的分組，還有一個是操作生還因素，其中有關道路環境的分組裡面，特別講到要檢視這個道路跟交通工程設計是不是符合法規，就如剛剛委員講的，跟我們的方向是一致的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以我的意思是，你們一定要等到115年以後才可能把那個調查完成，這是你們預估的嘛？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：可不可以事先做一點警示或者是狀況的排除？它雖然不是最終的報告，但優先把它做一點了解跟提醒，這個可不可以？"],["林主任委員信得：針對這個案子，我們已經立案調查，過程中我們有跟高公局聯絡，事實上高公局對這個路口已經開始在看要怎麼改善，他們已經在研究了。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以是不是輔助系統？不知道？我的意思是，這攸關人命，我知道你們有程序，你們要嚴謹，因為你們講的話或許會對社會、對產業有一點衝擊……"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：但是我的意思是……還是老話一句，人命無價……"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：如果一件案子只有發生過一次……可是在你的手上就有7次都撞同一個地方，這件事情我覺得不能夠跟一般的案件等閒視之，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委去研究一下，看用什麼方式做一點提示、提醒，或者確定排除，這個可不可以提早一下？"],["林主任委員信得：可以，我們可以研究這個方向。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝。第二件，我們助理在飛安報告裡面……這個早上好像有委員提到，就是耳機掉入椅子的那件事情。主委，是這樣子的，像這些東西，第一個，我們不可能禁止大家戴耳機，也不可能禁止戴那種單顆會掉落的耳機，它的確是很容易掉落，以我自己的使用經驗來講，我也常常會不小心掉落，那要不要制定一個系統？因為這個案子後來的處理方式是拆椅子，就是叫飛機先不要飛，因為那個耳機裡面有電池，怕會產生危險，所以叫飛機不要飛，航空公司也算負責，他們叫飛機不要飛，然後拆椅子，拆完之後把那個耳機取出，把椅子裝回去之後再飛。像這種案子，我認為它以後掉落的機率蠻高的，主委，這要不要有一套SOP？或者使用什麼樣的方式可以比拆椅子更快速排除，因為一個不小心掉了，飛機可能就耽誤一個小時、兩個小時甚至更久，這對航空業或者對旅客及商務的方便性跟效率都會造成很大的衝擊，所以我的看法是，第一個，不可能叫人家不戴耳機；第二個，不可能在影響飛安的情況下就讓它飛了，所以一定要有第三種選擇，也就是怎麼樣可以快速排除狀況。因此，運安會是不是先看看國航在椅子的設計上有多少種樣態？一旦發生這種情況，這些樣態所掉落的位置會在哪裡？可以做怎麼樣的處理？這是不是可以做成SOP或簡單的指引？"],["林主任委員信得：我們可以來研議看看……"],["蔡委員其昌：好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：或把它律定出來。"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對。"],["林主任委員信得：建議他們……"],["蔡委員其昌：找大家來討論一下。我不知道主委有沒有使用，我想你應該沒有使用，但我是有在使用的，可能我年紀還算輕，不過這不是老人家的問題，我看很多老人家也在用。我看到老人家在公園運動時，也戴跟我相同的耳機。我覺得這種耳機真的很容易掉，買這種耳機最常發生的就是掉了一顆，小朋友不小心掉了，或者自己不小心就掉了，可見是很容易掉落的，所以研議一下，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：沒問題，我們先找幾個單位來開會，看怎麼處理……"],["蔡委員其昌：這件事不宜拖太久，好不好？三個月或半年內就提出排除問題的指引，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝委員關心。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌副院長。","請游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","魯明哲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","林俊憲","徐富癸","廖先翔","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","黃健豪","葉元之","張啓楷"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00013"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}