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案要職農業部長陳俊俊報告後委員鄭念前等17人提出質詢經由農業部陳部長及衛福部食藥署周簡記"},{"start":1902.651,"end":1924.432,"text":"及相關人員及其答覆．登記發言委員．處不在場．走壞局域軍委發言委員必尋答．決訴委員．明帶話．所推書面質詢．列入紀錄勘定公報．書面質詢案未及答覆．部分引項．相關單位與證案以書面答覆．並複製本會二委員．本院委員邱英營等17人．已具職務整條司法草案案．三本院委員楊秋英等24人．已具職務整條司法草案案．決議尋答決說令定期繼續審查．散會宣讀完�"},{"start":1929.431,"end":1942.636,"text":"好 那我們現在進行報告事項第二案請宣讀邀請經濟部部長就面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為進行報告．並備質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1948.513,"end":1976.34,"text":"好,那我們146待會等到主法定人數我們再做確認那本日議程排定的是面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為進行報告並備質詢那現在因為我們的這個顧部長經濟部部長他公出那請假由連錦章次長代表列席連次長調生之後首次"},{"start":1976.96,"end":1983.426,"text":"到我們本委會來做備詢首先要恭喜連次長那現在我們請經濟部連錦章次長進行報告"},{"start":1996.604,"end":2023.988,"text":"主席、各位委員．承蒙國委員會邀請本部就經濟部面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層的因應作為進行報告那本部所屬臺電、中油、臺糖及臺水公司等國營事業具公共事業與生產事業的雙重經營特性堅固穩定充分公民民生與公會發展的要求並與人民生活及社會經濟發展息息相關因此公私人力應用行行"},{"start":2024.588,"end":2039.98,"text":"有關營運發展及提供民眾優質的服務品質那各4類人力為什麼產生斷層主要原因有下列三類一個就是82年到93年因應民運化政策採用精簡人力停止禁用新進人員後來從93年因為民運化趨緩所以才又開始禁用人力這中間產生了10年的斷層"},{"start":2047.225,"end":2057.907,"text":"另外一個就是97年勞基法因為退休人員從60年到65歲造成國營稅人員老化的問題另外一個就是在預算員的部分在"},{"start":2059.062,"end":2083.239,"text":"主計的相關規定是不能超過前3年的一個用年費費率的平均式再來是下年度不能超過上年度預算原有30%所以造成一些禁用原有一個人力的限制那針對這個問題經濟部提出了以下幾個相對應的一個改善措施那其中有關台電、中油、台糖、台水等等這些措施在簡報上"},{"start":2085,"end":2112.401,"text":"請大請委員參考我簡略的大概講幾個措施第一個就是我們提前的應用未來年度空缺的一個方案等於是說把未來的空缺我們可以在預算額度的情況下讓你提前去應用另外一個就是我們透過產學合作採取多元零採的管道那透過一些產學合作或是一些獎學金的制度然後來多方的禁用人力另外一個"},{"start":2113.837,"end":2132.058,"text":"就是我們針對這些進來的這些人力我們強化一些新進人員的實習訓練跟考核還有職務論調而且這種國營事業是有一些師徒制我們也進行了一些實施業師的一個制度來推動整個一個人才培訓的一個訓練"},{"start":2134.36,"end":2162.903,"text":"本部所屬事業未來5年已經到現在來看已經沒有比較大的一個退休潮而且實際的一個人齡已經從之前的差不多55歲占大比例現在已經縮短到平均年齡差不多到45歲左右所以這一部分就目前來講我們已經大幅度的改善這樣人力的一個短缺的一個狀況那最近我們台電中有台糖台水等世家也都配合能源轉型提升供應潤性等"},{"start":2163.804,"end":2165.265,"text":"那以上報告進行各位委員支持跟指教"},{"start":2196.563,"end":2197.204,"text":"請走出來敬禮"},{"start":2213.364,"end":2230.357,"text":"行政院人事行政總署的書面報告我們請各位委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在我們進行詢答那委員詢答前主席台依循慣例做幾項的宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時加1分"},{"start":2231.718,"end":2243.829,"text":"非本委員會的委員了4分鐘10點半截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位的林黛樺委員請做詢問有請次長我們請林次長"},{"start":2253.868,"end":2269.066,"text":"好那我們就針對國營事業的人力需求我們希望他是穩定發展而且人力就是我們企業的競爭力好我們針對有三個部分跟次長討論第一個人才斷層的嚴重營運是會受到影響嗎"},{"start":2273.131,"end":2287.267,"text":"第二個未來10年人力缺口怎麼補齊本席兩項建議第一個加強產學合作升更基層培訓第二個全面推動國營事業的自動化跟智慧化第三個也有一個具體建議"},{"start":2288.388,"end":2308.179,"text":"好,那在斷層當中在您的簡報也有提出退休高峰其實你們在109年的時候開始啟動這樣的一個議題的重視也這個65歲的介林高峰也會在119年來完整的呈現而當中最緊急的也就是在明年年"},{"start":2310.619,"end":2327.904,"text":"一百一十九年到一百一十四年將會出現最高峰甚至會達到五千到七千人以上的退休人口那時候省農經省部長的時候也正式到這樣的問題下令說一定要補齊缺口而且強調過渡期不可以有人才方"},{"start":2328.504,"end":2350.238,"text":"所以5年內要補齊7314人但是台電糖水這5年來補足的狀況不是很理想是呈現怎麼樣呢到今年為止你現有公司的總人數跟預算的元額總共台電糖水缺目前就缺了4291人好在你們也盤點了從明年開始"},{"start":2356.162,"end":2380.327,"text":"剛才的4291人是目前的缺口你未來10年總共盤點出來台電糖水是110704291再加上未來10年到123年的11070人按照你們現在的國營事業推一補一那如果再加上我們現在生育率排名是世界倒數第二"},{"start":2381.047,"end":2393.841,"text":"可能這樣人力缺口是永遠補不起的好那未來10年這個人力缺口所以呢本期在102年就開始倡議在地的高中職與國營事業產學專班也因為本期的倡議開啟了國營事業與高中職階段能夠就地培養人才"},{"start":2400.888,"end":2421.699,"text":"完成了這以下產學專班所以我在這邊也非常感謝台電唐水各位董作以及同仁人事單位的支持中油跟我林園高中跟小港高中的產學專班台電跟小港高中的產學專班台水跟六龜高中的產學專班台船跟中鋼集團跟高院工商"},{"start":2422.259,"end":2436.034,"text":"以及我民間的大社石化專區跟仁武高中中華電信與岐山農工等都還有相關的進行是在進行洽談當中好那這個產學合作有什麼好處呢"},{"start":2437.099,"end":2458.469,"text":"那我想這個次長你也很了解這個在地的人才我留用人才甚至我們的專班辦到熊中熊女他不去念他回來讀我們的產學專班這當然是我們國營事業的相關的這個福利制度還有你們在產學當中讓家長都很清楚我們國營事業整個在轉型過程當中的一個現況能取得家長的認同"},{"start":2463.291,"end":2477.502,"text":"所以這個目前我這個首創之軀是我們的中油所以甚至我們李順經理董事長我非常感謝他他甚至都認定我們林園高中就是中油所屬的"},{"start":2478.183,"end":2478.443,"text":"在高雄"},{"start":2502.055,"end":2519.476,"text":"還有哪些產學專班可以來進行規劃跟來執行的這是第一個等一下要請次長您來回應好那在但是呢針對全面推動國營事業的自動化跟智慧化"},{"start":2520.257,"end":2530.873,"text":"在本期去年的時候我就做了要求所以我也感謝中油他有來這個經濟部這邊還有中油這邊你們結合了公園院電光進公園院的電光的這個"},{"start":2536.04,"end":2562.517,"text":"的專業進行了國產武軍專晚節和AIOT所以去年7月去年10月的時候經濟部技術師也提供公研院POC的驗證經費而且年底去年12月的時候完成功能的驗證在今年3月的時候技術師也帶著公研院去看了這個成果那我也感謝中友他們也覺得說這確實是可行的可是"},{"start":2563.117,"end":2580.707,"text":"他說如果我要全面執行要明年的7月這就是緩慢但是他有去回應經濟部以及他也認知到中油本身也有這樣的需求在這個智慧化的需求好相關智慧化跟自動化跟智慧化的這個機制"},{"start":2583.548,"end":2592.614,"text":"雖然不能解決人員禁用但它可以減少人力需求的壓力我就以我林園廠來講它有三清四清關鍵是相當複雜我們現在的坐月區域的巡檢跟環廠道路的巡檢現在是用什麼用人力"},{"start":2600.299,"end":2620.691,"text":"我們走在場區外我用肉眼去看啊那邊漏了好那我就趕快來回報啟動檢查機制為什麼我這邊就可以用無人機無人載具不是無人機是無人載具跟AI影像辨識那當然我們知道它是一個工業區所以無人載具工研院這邊都有設計環抱"},{"start":2622.452,"end":2623.132,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":2639.24,"end":2661.866,"text":"一天24小時7天365天全年無休啊但是我人力是有局限的所以我就可以減緩人力的需求所以不是替代人力而是補足補充我人力不足的部分在我們這個自動化跟智慧化好所以具體建議有三個也請次長回應第一個"},{"start":2662.686,"end":2690.052,"text":"參考中油跟林園高中還有剛才本席所推動各國營事業的產學專班持續的來推動本席有具體的要求在我高雄這邊你們在進行一個月內完成所有的盤點各國營事業當中還有什麼樣的產學專班的規劃的一個可能性第二個全面加速推動國營事業自動化跟智慧化請經濟部專案列管我本席這邊講的專案列管是要部長主責列管"},{"start":2692.352,"end":2717.129,"text":"召集公研院、金屬中心、施策會等相關法人於3個月內完成規劃另外也請部長於今年9月前也就是下會期間完成四大國營事業的仿製檢視國營事業自動化智慧化的現況跟未來為什麼本席要求一定要部長親自來督導部長是歷任的這個部長當中完整業界歷練"},{"start":2718.63,"end":2733.122,"text":"第二個他所從事的半導體產業是所有國內目前自動化跟智慧化最高的產業也只有他親自督導在四大國營事業當中帶頭才有可能讓相關的中下游一併的啟動"},{"start":2734.443,"end":2752.119,"text":"我整個包括我的中小企業相關的產業傳統產業的自動化跟智慧化我就能夠有一個一個這個全面提升的可行性所以我才要求部長要親自的訪視而且親自的重案列管那這個列管當中我是要求三個月完成規劃案"},{"start":2753.2,"end":2756.041,"text":"包括逐年編列的預算你要達成什麼目標你什麼時候完成什麼樣的成果這是我第二個建議第三個基於就業公平及經驗傳承的原則我講清楚基於就業公平跟經驗傳承評估回聘退休人員因為你們現在人力虛財若渴"},{"start":2774.588,"end":2787.375,"text":"你要工業自動化跟智慧化還是需要一些時間但是你現在就是缺人所以我說一定要就業公平我們不是要去站年輕人主導年輕人上來升遷但是在這個過渡當中我能夠在就業公平跟經驗傳承的機制評估回評退休人員帶領新進人員迅速上手"},{"start":2799.583,"end":2817.98,"text":"減緩人力不足的壓力以經驗來提供專業機制甚至我們的這樣的回聘人員到什麼程度我們也應該要有一個適時的退場這些都是要規劃重點還是要讓我們自己公司內的新進的同仁能夠承接上來部長您回應一下這三個具體的建議"},{"start":2819.082,"end":2841.543,"text":"謝謝委員針對那個產學專班的一個指導這部分我們一定會繼續做因為這個不只是在補充人力跟地方這個合作的這一部分其實讓地方的機會更穩定這部分我們一定會做另外一個就是說國營事業自動化跟智慧化這是我們部長上來第一個要務要產業AI化那一定是以國營事業為優先那這個我跟"},{"start":2842.364,"end":2865.312,"text":"委員報告我一定親自下來下來督導市長你就懶了這個工作了我一定會專案來跟我們報告我也很高興你來懶這個工作因為你你也這個工業局上來所以也因為這個有關我們高雄整個石化公安的問題這個我們一定會努力來做那另外一個就是那個聘委那個退休這部分我們目前也有在"},{"start":2865.792,"end":2866.572,"text":"接下來我們請邱議員章偉請做詢談"},{"start":2904.269,"end":2931.545,"text":"謝謝主席我是不是請一下連次長我們再請連次長次長早還是要先恭喜您從產發署署長高升變長賜我相信您未來的工作責任應該是更相對重大次長我想請教一下您在長賜的任內您會負責主要督導哪些業務單位"},{"start":2932.731,"end":2955.976,"text":"我是負責油水、糖電還有那個還有那個能源署跟標準局所以國家的能源政策大概都是屬於您在督導屬於您在管是不是這樣那我就直接切入主題來我第一個想要請教可能台電王總經理也在來這個我們一直在講台電的虧損原本預計今年的虧損會到2124億"},{"start":2958.897,"end":2987.322,"text":"那4月份我們調降電價之後你們台電的預估今年會多收了600億元對不對一直到年底會多收600億元再加上行政院的撥補1000億所以你的整個虧損會降到500億那台電你們現在也公布就是說燃料有下降中油已經調降了所謂的天然氣的這個採購的價格你們購買的成本也下降所以你們預估今年可以損益兩坪是這樣嗎"},{"start":2990.143,"end":3014.781,"text":"政府如果可以撥補一千億的話政府撥補一千億你們是可以損益兩平你們的預估今年是可以損益兩平那這個就會我下一個問題就要請教了你們在講說今年會損益兩平的同時其實你們前幾天公布了一個就是說你現在我們要求有一些比如說農漁業社福團體學校或者是地區醫院"},{"start":3015.802,"end":3030.084,"text":"要求希望電價動漲這件事情可是呢台電說你們不會再去做這一些優惠的處理回歸給各單位自行去編列預算嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":3031.753,"end":3050.518,"text":"這個部分是兩個層次一個是台電對民眾的這個部分或者是一些弱勢農業會等等這個部分這個部分是不會改變的台電對他們的店家是不會改變而只是說台電在這方面的需要撥補的這部分我們是跟機關之間做處理而已"},{"start":3051.64,"end":3061.696,"text":"總經理我覺得你還是要說明清楚因為我看到的新聞稿跟看到了你們的那個標題實在是不清楚你說對個人的部分比如說我現在直接舉例農漁業社福團體"},{"start":3064.767,"end":3065.748,"text":"好這邊補充一下齁就是"},{"start":3084.906,"end":3085.747,"text":"那各目的事業主管機關"},{"start":3109.769,"end":3136.349,"text":"總經理你確定他們今年有編列這樣的預算嗎?還是說你這整個計畫是從明年才開始計算?因為現在大概各部會已經準備在編列明年的預算了嘛所以你們現在發這個文的意思你們在中央在行政院裡頭有沒有經過跨部會的整合協調然後各機關是不是確定從明年開始他們就會去編列所謂的減少優惠的這樣的一個預算編列?"},{"start":3138.041,"end":3151.29,"text":"是的 這個部分是在中央有曾經協調過有這樣的一個決議所以我們是根據這個決議發文給各世界目的所以各個機關都知道比如說教育部也知道是的"},{"start":3152.145,"end":3152.345,"text":"是的"},{"start":3175.444,"end":3201.648,"text":"第二未來的這一些補助由各機關來自行編列預算我覺得這兩個重點其實前面只是前面那個重點啦就你要讓他們知道說他們的電價還是動漲不會因此而受到影響我覺得這個是一個很重要的關鍵前提否則現在新聞就寫說台電取消所有的這個優惠措施那你會造成大家的恐慌我覺得這件事情可能"},{"start":3202.768,"end":3226.075,"text":"這個次長或者是台電你們還要必須要在對外說明更清楚好我們在對外說明再強化這一塊好來接下來我其實要講就是說電費這件事情我現在看到有一個民間的企業就是統一超商他們在6月21號開始推動所謂的凌晨3點到6點限時關燈的這樣的一個政策預估一年可以節省96萬度的電"},{"start":3228.64,"end":3234.151,"text":"這個我覺得還是一個蠻不錯的一個政策方向請問一下經濟部有沒有"},{"start":3235.393,"end":3261.058,"text":"有沒有這樣的意思比如說更加大幅的去推廣不必要的用電或者是說真的我們應該要大幅的鼓勵大家去採用節能設施節電設施我一直在想我們立法院的這個燈我們立法院的冷氣到底有沒有節電設施比如說我們現在會議在進行可是我們的門是一直開著外面30幾度那那個整個冷氣的運轉"},{"start":3263.559,"end":3291.268,"text":"行政院的所有的行政機關到底有沒有裝置節能設施這些經濟部到底有沒有去盤點當然郭智慧部長講的這個東西是被斷章取義擷取一句話但是他重要的目的其實就是在告訴大家節能的重要性所以市長您說你督導這些油水、糖電、能源這件事情其實是大家很關注的"},{"start":3292.128,"end":3307.473,"text":"到底你們經濟部有沒有去大肆的我簡單問啦行政單位有沒有有沒有去做比如說變頻冷氣的改設燈具等等這一些節電的設施你們到底做了多少這個針對那個政府機關喔不管在電燈或是冷氣這一塊"},{"start":3312.176,"end":3328.404,"text":"﹗"},{"start":3329.644,"end":3342.026,"text":"我們部長目前也在進行一個比較大的就是要推動X口這樣的一個動作那X口我們只要會把台電把那個後段班節能比較後段班的我們撈出來然後針對後段班節能比較不好的我們會灑下去整個全部灑下去我們有服務團來協助這些節能比較績效不好的我們來進行他協助他做節能另外在家電的補助部分其實這個節能我們都是"},{"start":3358.015,"end":3385.005,"text":"你要補助的話你買的這個家電一定是要再節能多少以上的我們才做補助這個我們都知道啦我現在講的就是說節電除電新的一個能源概念其實這個我們已經談很久了那你如何讓社會大眾能夠去接受到一個這樣的一個新的能源轉變新的能源政策比如說這兩天的太陽光"},{"start":3386.032,"end":3413.848,"text":"來臨。"},{"start":3414.528,"end":3415.228,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢答"},{"start":3440.796,"end":3443.317,"text":"現在我在執行的同時對面的行政院門口正有17個團體"},{"start":3470.427,"end":3494.047,"text":"在陳前抗議北中南都有喔他們在抗議什麼聯合反對賣電賣了電廠嚴厲我先練一段他們的宣言這團隊包括六千污染傷害聯合球場自救會雲林前海養殖協會南部反空污大聯盟台灣健康空氣行動聯盟17個團隊他們說賣了阿"},{"start":3498.789,"end":3498.809,"text":"總經理"},{"start":3525.734,"end":3537.982,"text":"我問一下,你知道全台灣第二大的污染源是哪裡?全台灣喔?第二大的污染源?不要聊,這邊的電廠蠻多的結果你五月應該一號機要關起來啊你進行這個污染源又繼續了"},{"start":3546.667,"end":3575.236,"text":"我們再看下一張好不好,來,你再看一張環境部委公布了一個資料,他說我們的碳排不只沒有降,反而是增加的一個嚴重問題就是我們的煤還繼續在燒,他在說我們國家2020年總溫室的氣體排放量不只沒有達到2020年的2%管制的目標,裡面最重要是二百多個,溫室氣體的最大中心是二氧化碳"},{"start":3576.291,"end":3601.162,"text":"排放量比2005年不只沒有降欸還增加了2.55%全台灣第二大污染源你繼續讓他繼續本來要停的5月底要停你不停你要繼續讓他燒然後連環境部都要提醒你了二氧化碳要繼續這樣排放下去嗎我們看下一張來我問你整個問題現在在對面的行政院的團體要求一個東西"},{"start":3605.168,"end":3615.546,"text":"你的黑箱合約合約能不能公布你現在叫賣寮電廠的合約能不能公布給大家看"},{"start":3617.469,"end":3645.517,"text":"跟委員報告齁其實整個商業行為必須要談誠信問題啦齁那整個合約的穩定性跟可預見性也必須要維持齁所以我這個合約是25年的合約那這25年的合約裡面這個電廠建置的那個固定成本必須要能夠讓他回收所以這個部分我們必須要照這個合約去做你白天去買電你去跟賣掉電廠買電用的是我們人民的納稅錢嘛你是國營事業嘛這本來就要公開嘛對不對"},{"start":3647.33,"end":3657.643,"text":"對人民負責啊所以行立法院才會這樣要求你民脂民膏本來就是要公開嘛但是又關到人民的健康啊全民這麼關注啊這個合約為什麼不能公開"},{"start":3658.868,"end":3675.969,"text":"可以公開嗎?這合約沒有,這合約有什麼見不得人的地方?有嗎?有任何見不得人的地方嗎?沒有見不得人的地方。所以讓公開唄?我們回去研究一下好不好?就這法的部分我們研究一下。不是啊,你有什麼見不得人的地方為什麼不能公開?你進行的就是5年對不對?你現在兇兇,你又演年華。"},{"start":3679.397,"end":3697.699,"text":"到底怎麼定的?這裡面大家很清楚了嘛你時間就是到5月底1號機就在停啊那你記憶什麼理由?你現在講的理由就是說可能你的那個之前有些地方那個還沒有發電完成對不對?可是你合約裡面看的時間點就是5月底啊1號機在停啊那你該停的不停"},{"start":3698.78,"end":3728.035,"text":"那你又不把合約公布啊人民就抗議啊是不是這樣因為這個是2015年的時候齁主管機關有做一個分媒深媒減量28個22%的這個部分啊這個部分牽涉到他麥寮電廠他的固定投資成本回收的這個部分所以我們在新的合約這一年半目的就是讓他把他所以你看到的是麥寮的問題有沒有看到人民的問題你繼續燒剛我剛剛可以看的是什麼第二大污染源"},{"start":3729.393,"end":3744.115,"text":"連環境部都在提醒你了犧牲的是人民的健康跟生命喔兩權之間到底是人民比較重要還是賣寮電廠比較重要你可能要再想一下第一個我再問你所以你當時可以怎麼看定你合約能夠攤出來給全民全民看"},{"start":3744.554,"end":3771.245,"text":"我們盡快回去研究以後再回覆你下午下班前給我答覆好不好現在人民跟團體還在那邊曬著大太陽在等你的答案好不好今天下班前我這樣進行好不好你不是回去研究嗎5點之前給我可以公開吧我們回去研究我這樣進行你要給我答覆OK第1個現在婚姻官他不是沒有通過燃煤的許可證明嗎"},{"start":3772.375,"end":3793.162,"text":"他還沒通過 完整會都還沒通過 你怎麼可以就是延長合約呢 這沒有違法 你有辦法運作嗎這個部分完全在 必須在合法的狀況之下才 你就不合法了 你委員這個合法 是不是總經理 完整會不給你這個 不知道免許可證明 你怎麼可以去簽一個延長一年半 這違法欸 這台電是不是違法 欸經濟部"},{"start":3798.922,"end":3824.678,"text":"市長沒有,台電不會違法做這個事沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":3825.373,"end":3828.918,"text":"還沒違法還沒違法你就是違反這一條啊你就是違反這一條啊你就是違反這一條啊"},{"start":3842.432,"end":3845.894,"text":"是現在還不是合法的合約嗎?應該是說他這個生美許可他必須自己去拿到"},{"start":3869.464,"end":3874.99,"text":"所以賣寮電廠不要說未來或者是一年半他一輩子都沒有拿到婚姻關的這個燃煤許可證這個合約就無效了他不能燒喔是不是這樣"},{"start":3890.489,"end":3893.49,"text":"這是我們國家政策啊!市府一定會怕喔!總經理應該都知道啊!我們的國家的政策"},{"start":3916.417,"end":3945.313,"text":"就是要減少煤對不對?要轉型對不對?結果你去做了一個繼續燒煤的而且這麼嚴重的一個污染報告委員整體的煤的用量是一直在持續下降的喔持續下降啊今天這邊加一點沒關係喔所以賣了這邊增加沒有關係嗎?這不是矛盾嗎?整體是下降的齁整體下降我可以同意你整體下降那你為什麼那邊突然要高起來?這經濟不就又高起來嗎?"},{"start":3946.428,"end":3968.007,"text":"好不好?再想一想我上個禮拜站在這個位置我問了郭部長我一直在講你不省電阿對不對?你搶到自己沒有缺電阿你又打自己的嘴巴這是你的政策欸國家的政策也是經濟部也是台電的政策你的燃煤燒煤是要減少的你自己打嘴巴你才讓賣料可以再增加"},{"start":3969.525,"end":3998.515,"text":"所以我明確的要求了郭部長你若確定你自欺滿滿一直在講你沒有缺電你就不要去危害人民的健康危害人民的安全啊生命啊所以我就要求你說你若我沒有缺電的話你慢點去把他停掉喔我聽你不是這樣說他說回去好好看一下電這是兩件事啦因為我們必須讓合約執行是必須是穩定跟可預見性否則其他的IPP我採購的時候會有他們一些擔心說未來他的25年合約是不是會有問題那合約裡面有什麼重要的事情"},{"start":4000.276,"end":4025.693,"text":"我剛剛就在提醒你合約裡面你看到的到底是賣寮的利益還是人民的利益人民這邊是健康跟安全哪一個重哪一個輕總經理跟經濟部次長還有經濟部要好好想這個問題好不好這是第一個問題那現在更嚴重什麼你一直在講合約合約你看到的是說這個以前沒有發電量還沒有發完你要讓他發完一般的人民看到是什麼你合約時間就這麼久啊"},{"start":4028.445,"end":4036.885,"text":"裡面有發生了某些變動或者你說可能是憲政或人民說你不要燒那麼多煤你某些額度沒有達到可是最重要的是什麼?那合約裡面最重要的點是什麼?"},{"start":4038.032,"end":4039.373,"text":"我再重複上個禮拜講的話"},{"start":4062.301,"end":4089.639,"text":"我也問了郭部長你不要自己有衝突了你們自己在強調沒有缺電結果你又要去燒煤要去影響到傷害到人民的健康安全這是很大的問題好不好再想一下如果真的不缺電趕快去停下來第一個剛剛講的他本來縣政府就沒有合法給他燃煤的許可證他根本就沒辦法動啊這是一個所以這個合約目前看起來還不見得可以執行對不對第二天你今天下班進行五點進行"},{"start":4091.51,"end":4091.53,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":4121.124,"end":4133.657,"text":"接下來我們請張家俊委員請做詢談主席我想請這個連次長我們再請連次長"},{"start":4140.017,"end":4164.971,"text":"市長這個和珊電力缺口不用擔心我們都有考慮進去就是這個是6月12號本席在經濟委員會質詢的時候你們部長所回答的當時部長說和珊停機的7%發電缺口未來預估就是加上AI每年3%用電成長的缺口都不用擔心真的不用擔心嗎你告訴我"},{"start":4165.95,"end":4174.877,"text":"跟委員報告河山一號機如果除以的話它差不多有95萬千瓦那7月的話會有豐德3號加入有110萬9到時候會有大潭9號跟7號還有興達一號機上來那這個加起來有300萬總共有440幾萬那我先繼續問一下市長請問一下河山廠的一號機二號機總裝置容量是多少"},{"start":4192.517,"end":4193.539,"text":"和三場一號機跟二號機都是95萬"},{"start":4196.613,"end":4200.254,"text":"所以加起來加起來是1902MW所以過去這段期間來本席在問經濟部和安會要不要考慮和三廠研議本席也多次以國外為例國外的核電廠使用週期都是60年以上是常態但你們一直說不考慮一直說有準備次長你剛剛告訴我的說"},{"start":4224.523,"end":4226.184,"text":"這個1900MW的缺口你們已經準備了但是你們準備的這幾個如果都能夠供應上的話為什麼還要賣了電廠"},{"start":4239.307,"end":4247.689,"text":"跟委員報告河山廠的在7月27日下來之後我們是有豐德3號機會上來所以那個量是可以足夠cover的那為什麼還要賣電呢我覺得你們這些都是言不由衷敷衍的話我來幫你們說因為麥寮電廠的總發電量是多少123機各發電600MW總共1800MW是不是剛好cover你"},{"start":4268.135,"end":4268.195,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":4289.292,"end":4295.794,"text":"河山的部分只有1號機下來,所以是950...那2號機明年5月也要下來啦那我們還有另外的機組會上來哪什麼機組會上來我們先來看看,讓全國人民看一下拿賣電抵河山,台電要多花多少錢就是依照台電公佈4月的發電成本河南每一度電是1.12元"},{"start":4315.561,"end":4324.186,"text":"五十五億度電只要六十一點六億元但是如果用麥寮發電麥寮燃煤發電的話立刻暴增到一百六十八點三億增加了一百零七億元你有沒有看 有看嗎這是你最新四月的"},{"start":4337.922,"end":4353.358,"text":"對,報告委員最主要是因為河山下去是因為法規的規定我也想聽聽次長講,次長你知道這件事情除了多花107億之外還要犧牲雲林縣人的健康請問你清不清楚這個影響有多大我跟委員報告"},{"start":4358.479,"end":4359.02,"text":"沒有沒有沒有沒有最後一次"},{"start":4374.451,"end":4379.555,"text":"你們一直告訴我說這個河山停機跟麥寮延長發電是因為什麼都無關都是因為合約的問題但是現在其實賣電給燃氣的這個計畫已經在進行了到底台電有沒有計畫跟這個這個賣電來購買天然氣的發電呢"},{"start":4399.449,"end":4399.77,"text":"現在麥寮天然氣的接收站環評都已經過了"},{"start":4411.147,"end":4415.371,"text":"我們基本上大家都是反對火力發電的你不能夠說你這個用電缺口你核電的用電缺口要用火力發電拼命燒用我們雲林彰化這些百姓的肺來發電這是完全不合理的"},{"start":4430.724,"end":4433.785,"text":"而且麥寮電廠當時也有對雲林縣人承諾說2025就不再燒煤你們應該好好研議怎麼樣加速讓核酸不用退役繼續研議而不是犧牲雲林人的健康而且呢"},{"start":4448.072,"end":4460.984,"text":"中規一句話中規一句話這都是錯誤的能源政策所造成的放著一度電一塊的核能不要用去買昂貴的天然氣去用煤炭來發電市長我也知道你很無奈啊"},{"start":4465.12,"end":4468.243,"text":"你也什麼都做不了不要說你了我相信連部長都做不了主因為整個國家的能源政策都被民進黨的意識形態所綁架說真話的人受到批評還要被要求說不要說話我們的國發會主委我們的經濟部長上任之初整個社會都期待他們能夠扭轉內閣對核能的偏見結果呢"},{"start":4492.085,"end":4506.781,"text":"現在什麼都不敢說了當初說真話的人被民進黨批評變成被民進黨批評的對象國家的能源政策至此何其可悲受害的是國家受害的是全體人民啊你們同不同意"},{"start":4509.364,"end":4516.169,"text":"報告委員 能源的政策的選擇是各個都有它的優點跟缺點 核能部分的安全你台電現在累積虧損多少錢你告訴我啊你現在台電今年會不會累積虧損 是不是有沒有5000億的可能"},{"start":4528.359,"end":4532.462,"text":"你現在累積3800億3850億你現在告訴我說有什麼優缺點你知道3年來政府已經撥補了你們4000億你還累積3850億你告訴我什麼優缺點法律的問題要先解決所以所以我們要想辦法去解決而不是把這些把賣店拿來補充啊拿來填補這個缺口啊你現在告訴我合約合約"},{"start":4556.51,"end":4557.231,"text":"我告訴你你好好面對你這些虧損之後要怎麼辦謝謝"},{"start":4585.155,"end":4592.279,"text":"嚴肅的議題理性的討論謝謝我們接下來請鄭正前委員請做詢談"},{"start":4600.706,"end":4619.467,"text":"謝謝主席我想請一下我們林次長還有我們中油的李董事長我們請以上兩位台電的王總經理然後台塘的楊董事長然後台水的李董事長台水李董事長請"},{"start":4621.601,"end":4646.352,"text":"以上五位請就質詢台謝謝因為今天那個早有特別安排了經濟部面對國營事業未來10年能力嚴重斷層之因應作為所以就是我們四大國營事業的董事長和總經理都在現場所以我針對這部分的時候我想特別關心因為我看到我們整個"},{"start":4649.634,"end":4664.525,"text":"經濟部提出來報告的時候我發現整體來說的時候台電這邊表示說他們113年起退休人數逐漸減緩以無落差過大之斷層所以台電就表示好像沒有什麼人力的一個問題"},{"start":4665.746,"end":4693.339,"text":"那中油這邊也表示111年期退休人數趨緩已無明顯之斷層中油也沒有問題然後台糖這邊的時候表示114年期可逐漸脫離退休高峰期員工年資年齡偏高的情況都明顯獲得改善人力斷層壓力也逐年減輕台糖也沒有問題那台水這邊也表示近年來退休潮已有所趨緩就四大國營事業都表示這個人力沒有問題那我就感覺感覺很像我們今天這個經濟委員會"},{"start":4695.18,"end":4706.415,"text":"安排這個經濟部面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層的因應作為好像是一個多餘的一個報告可是我想請教一下次長就是我們來看一下"},{"start":4708.876,"end":4732.791,"text":"這幾年的一個退休人數屢創新高那我這邊就統計到111年那針對這個部分就是我想問就是四大國營事業公司我想問111年我這邊數字只有到111年我想問112年中游自願退休的人數有多少有多少借齡退休離職人數有多少"},{"start":4737.648,"end":4761.362,"text":"請給我具體的數字好不好然後臺電也請準備然後臺糖臺水都請準備志願退休人數去年志願退休人數借齡退休人數還有離職人數跟委員報告那事實上中油公司去年去年整個退休跟離職人數總共是731位"},{"start":4764.224,"end":4764.244,"text":"臺電這邊勒"},{"start":4793.139,"end":4807.482,"text":"臺電數字請給我,自願退休有多少人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是95"},{"start":4822.244,"end":4822.904,"text":"臺堂這邊請給我具體數字"},{"start":4851.058,"end":4877.065,"text":"台塘的部分退休人數是162人那離職人數是40人加起來是202162你們可不可以分成自願退休跟借零退休?通常都是借零退休的台塘自願退休少對不對?那台水這邊請給我數字跟委員報告112年台水公司的退休人數是202人"},{"start":4879.773,"end":4896.464,"text":"那志願退休是57人 戒退是145人OK志願退休多少人志願退休57人57人嘛OK然後志願戒停退休是145145離職人數離職人數是143人143人喔OK好謝謝那四位董事長總經理為什麼要特別問這個問題"},{"start":4906.611,"end":4930.807,"text":"是因為我看到所有的這個部分我們看到整個借鈴退休的數字在111年當中的時候只有29.4%是借鈴退休表示有超過7成的人都是自願退休跟你們剛剛給我報的數字有一點點落差那每一年的情況都會改變我可以理解可是我為什麼要特別問這個事情因為"},{"start":4932.208,"end":4944.674,"text":"市長我想問一下我們今年四大國營公司的時候準備要招考多少人中游1100人不是我說今年準備要招考多少人中游1100"},{"start":4954.895,"end":4963.282,"text":"要招考1100人我看到在6月12日經濟部上網公告經濟部所屬事業單位113人招考總共只有826人欸中研就1100這是什麼狀態那個是職員職員的部分嘛你那部分包括臨時人員嗎包括技術人員"},{"start":4981.54,"end":5006.178,"text":"那這個部分至少你到時候你整合所有的數字給我一下我們整合一個數字給委員長因為我想看一下我們四大國營公司的人力情況到底是如何因為我這邊看到一個情況就是我們今年要招考826名那目前還在找那我看到去年的數字的時候我們錄取率大概是10%左右而已可是我為什麼會特別要問自願退休跟"},{"start":5007.398,"end":5008.139,"text":"所以我今天這邊請四位董事長總經理這邊上來的時候"},{"start":5036.781,"end":5049.255,"text":"就特別提到我們國營事業如何留才的問題如何留才那如何留才這邊的時候呢我們看到的情況有點擔心像台水之前找了50個退休的人進來當顧問為什麼因為第一線的技術人員不夠"},{"start":5053.9,"end":5076.294,"text":"你人找進來是不是技術人員能夠滿足第一線的要求看起來是有一些問題的那我們看到中油這體系當中在煉油廠當中的時候很多第一線的員工公眾環境並不是那麼好所以流動性高那我們希望國營事業有一個相當的穩定性所以本席在這邊的時候也特別希望次長這邊能夠"},{"start":5079.396,"end":5092.004,"text":"來特別針對國營事業單位在數位化的能力能夠有所提高因為四大國營事業單位我們都認為他應該是有競爭力的可是我們看到了目前"},{"start":5093.939,"end":5112.952,"text":"就是民間對於整個亞太行銷數位轉型聯盟協會他針對整個台灣各個產業跟政府部門的時候我們看到了國營事業單位政府部門我這邊我先不講可是國營事業單位在說的數位轉型當中能力是最差的"},{"start":5114.172,"end":5131.918,"text":"所以現在台灣不斷在強調半導體跟AI的情況我希望國營事業單位能夠在這個腳步上面能夠跟上透過數位化、自動化跟AI化的一個狀態能夠讓我們的國營事業單位更具競爭力然後有更多的福利能夠給"},{"start":5134.079,"end":5134.899,"text":"好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":5157.025,"end":5179.185,"text":"我們也請國營會針對四大國營事業單位因為今天的主題本席特別要聽取他們四大的困難以及人力的缺口到底目前人力是夠不夠那麼每一年退休包括建林退休以及這個志願離職的當然趕快請他們做一個"},{"start":5181.747,"end":5182.908,"text":"鄭天才委員請作詢答"},{"start":5209.529,"end":5231.119,"text":"主席會委員有請次長我們再請連次長這個恭喜你這個在經濟部的首署的相關的工業局標檢局還有什麼國產發署都待過這個很適合"},{"start":5236.828,"end":5238.67,"text":"當任常務次長"},{"start":5261.277,"end":5264.678,"text":"國營事業延遲合理化管理作業規定多有一個這樣的一個機制希望能夠朝這個方向去"},{"start":5290.486,"end":5292.949,"text":"經濟部首署4月103至112年曾面臨人力斷層的危機有三點分析"},{"start":5313.086,"end":5316.354,"text":"那其中這個第二點60歲至65歲有一個原因當然要看這個"},{"start":5322.349,"end":5343.19,"text":"台電、台水、台糖每個不太一樣的工作環境像台電它常常會爬上爬下還要上山所以這個部分也會有所不同但是這個也是會面臨我們未來"},{"start":5344.4,"end":5367.895,"text":"未來還面臨這個少子女化的很多的問題所以這個部分都是要去怎麼樣去因應都要去多多的去看那我們看這個台電中友台糖台水這個年齡各年齡分布的情形來看的話"},{"start":5369.295,"end":5392.987,"text":"我們就像我剛剛講的61到65歲台電就比例就相對的比較低了所以他自然他就算你這個勞基法改了他一樣要退啊因為這個工作比較吃重嘛要上上下下所以各方面他會有但是如果我們從這個"},{"start":5396.223,"end":5396.844,"text":"臺電公司報告提到整個"},{"start":5424.852,"end":5432.211,"text":"面臨所謂的中高年齡解剖老化問題然後經過你們的一個整個整個"},{"start":5434.311,"end":5459.274,"text":"改善改進經濟的方案之後確實有比較好如果從台電工作性質比相對跟其他的4個商業公司的話來講基本上35歲到54歲中間人力接近5成這個部分當然因為這個是一個經驗也很重要"},{"start":5460.775,"end":5487.316,"text":"所以這個部分是一個需要各個公司都要去談的部分然後我們看你未來10年員工退休的情形你們也做了一估這個部分怎麼樣就成我剛剛講的這個年輕人怎麼樣讓他能夠進來是一個途徑很重要的途徑當然另外一個途徑這個就是我的重點了"},{"start":5488.632,"end":5502.497,"text":"另外一個途徑是原住民的禁用原住民的禁用我們看這個經濟部首屬事業機構這個新進職員原住民報考的人數我們從105年207人然後這個入企人數只有5個5位這個人數的比例很低一直到112年"},{"start":5517.693,"end":5535.808,"text":"這個新晉執言爭試原住民報考人數287人競用只有8人所以這個比例真的是很低這個需要這個要請這個我們所有的這個臺臺電這個相關臺水臺糖"},{"start":5540.45,"end":5562.617,"text":"包括各個事業機構海棠各方面都應該去我們就舉這個例子臺電臺電一直是我們原住民族一直很嚮往要去的一個國營事業但是如果我們從這個來原住民報考的人數這個105年是107人報考"},{"start":5569.57,"end":5586.883,"text":"這個入企人數只有10個這個比例真的很低這個112年383人去報告這個有成長一些些因為這幾年我一直在請我們各個國營事業的那個去"},{"start":5588.837,"end":5588.977,"text":"進行報告．"},{"start":5609.76,"end":5635.388,"text":"一年就離開了,甚至半年就離開了那何不如讓我們在那邊長期的來去做這樣的一個工作機會台水公司也是一樣這個顏族民族禁用的人數的比例真的都是非常非常的低我們看這個台糖也是一樣這個無論是職研、公研、業股"},{"start":5636.792,"end":5639.595,"text":"要請次長協助我們的各個公司來禁用原住民,可以嗎?"},{"start":5661.735,"end":5674.185,"text":"好,我再來找我們四大國營事業公司來討論一下怎麼來多多敬略我們原住民的那個同胞這樣子好,謝謝好,謝謝接下來我們請李玉玲委員請做詢答謝謝主席,請連次長我們再請連次長"},{"start":5696.957,"end":5711.134,"text":"委員好是謝謝林市長請教你的就是因為去年的4月12號大陸的商務部特別宣布了就是依據台灣對於大陸的貿易限制進行了貿易壁壘的這個調查"},{"start":5712.675,"end":5726.361,"text":"的結果就是因為2002年的1月份我們加入了世貿的組織到現在我們對大陸的部分的產品採取了單方面的限制進口的措施所以在這種情況下大陸認為沒有必要再給我們臺灣單方面的這個讓利所以他們大陸的商務部調查的結果就是我們兩岸的確實有"},{"start":5735.845,"end":5758.131,"text":"議員．"},{"start":5758.251,"end":5781.743,"text":"在這一次我們賴清德總統上任之後我們並沒有看到兩岸的破冰的這個契機所以這個ECFA在這個清單裡面所有的我們的關稅減免上會不會影響到我們未來的話會完全的這個就是所有的這個在賴清德總統這個任內可不可能就完全歸零了"},{"start":5782.643,"end":5786.605,"text":"根委員報告其實我們不做這種假設但是我們是用一個比較完整的一個分析就是說我們從去年開始在去年初的時候我們針對大陸有這樣的動作我們就把它假設說萬一它全部給我們取消的時候我們對產業我們要怎麼來協助它過過這個難關我們對產業尤其是傳產業因為大部分出口的部分的話都是屬於半導體的產品的電子零件的部分"},{"start":5811.46,"end":5838.446,"text":"我們傳統產業雖然說在這個出口上大概只有佔了2%而已但是你要怎麼樣協助他們你有什麼規劃跟委員報告其實從去年開始我們就跟像鋼鐵機械自行車紡織還有石化等等我們就一個一個為他們量身訂做什麼量身訂做我們有跟他們量身訂做說萬一這個完全取消的時候我們要怎麼去脫離紅色公務員或怎麼去脫離對大陸的依賴"},{"start":5840.186,"end":5842.629,"text":"市長其實最重要的這些產業他們自己都知道技術怎麼提升最重要的目標我們會開拓其他市場這一定的那其他市場的競爭力在哪裡就是"},{"start":5863.575,"end":5886.254,"text":"對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對"},{"start":5886.454,"end":5891.336,"text":"比如說好他要到泰國那到泰國那個那一要落地的那一剎那我們去幫他協助他可以在那落地的時候怎麼去讓他進到那個市場這一部分我們去做一些協定也就是說現在我們的簽署FTA的這個國家目前只有8個那你是不是就是屬於區域的或是兩國的這種簽證的話簽約的話才能夠讓他們的關稅可以減低"},{"start":5913.625,"end":5931.161,"text":"對關稅檢驗是這樣對對對對是不是這個我們也努力在做但是另外一部分是說還沒有在簽雙邊的FTA之外我們有另外一個方式來解決所以出口的關稅是非常重要你要幫他們找出路啊對是不是有有有好所以這個你必須要積極來做了因為我們有有有"},{"start":5932.142,"end":5953.234,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":5953.655,"end":5963.567,"text":"接下來本席想請問的是因為現在大陸已經提出了這個ECFA的這個取消之後的話那未來的話在國際上他就會認為說我們現在的話這個"},{"start":5968.834,"end":5969.714,"text":"會不會碰到更多的阻礙呢?"},{"start":5985.202,"end":5985.842,"text":"但是現在GPTPP是會員國製的嘛"},{"start":6002.549,"end":6014.479,"text":"會員國資的話那有一個會員國不同意我們就進不去的阿是不是我不說大陸其他國家因為我們讓國際會有這個訊息認為說我們台灣有這個貿易壁壘的情形阿所以你還是要繼續努力嗎你這麼有自信你要繼續努力所以現在CPTPP的進駐的情況怎麼樣我們已經申請了那有進駐嗎"},{"start":6027.297,"end":6048.106,"text":"這個是我們目前還在努力嘛所以會員國還是有阻礙嘛還沒全部的會員國都同意嘛所以這種現象你要小心的應對好好的規劃對大陸的多市出像一些產品上可以免有這麼多的限制這樣只要大家能夠互動的話貿易壁壘的情形就會減少了"},{"start":6049.727,"end":6057.632,"text":"接下來我們想請問的就是國營事業的人力問題回到正題裡面現在國營事業跟公營的事業台電的話我們在針對這60歲到65歲因為60歲到65歲就要退休了在這5年情形或人力的缺口情形台電的大概有2613人中油有2818人還有台糖有616人"},{"start":6078.426,"end":6102.408,"text":"臺水公司就有655人這樣統計下來未來的5年我們退休的缺口人力的缺口將近有6700人6700人本席要講的就是因為人力你們沒有補足都有缺口都有人力不足情況之下現在要考我們公營事業國營事業的人又減少那這種情形上人力不足你怎麼去做呢"},{"start":6104.346,"end":6127.716,"text":"委員報告我們除了禁用那個因為我們也會聘用當地的一些約聘僱的所以這種禁用的會從原籍公籍還有約聘僱這幾個方向來禁用還有我們目前也在跟一些高職的學校鄰近的高職學校去做合作那如果他一畢業產業合作對產學合作我們四大公司都有在跟"},{"start":6128.556,"end":6129.62,"text":"這不是根本的解決問題的方式啊"},{"start":6135.885,"end":6136.665,"text":"你這個人力還是繼續有缺口啊"},{"start":6163.118,"end":6167.542,"text":"您用產學合作不是根本的方法?不是說產學合作是其中一種方式主要還是從招聘這一邊問來一年差不多有八九百位會去招聘那剛才講那個巡檢人力我們目前還是會透過一些世衛科技來做協助補助那這部分我們台電已經"},{"start":6182.034,"end":6203.486,"text":"針對那些優先順序已經在安排在做處理本席會這麼提就是因為我們人力不足你都靠其他地方來支援就從新北苗栗新竹那邊調人力來我們桃園支援現在你不足的看新北不足的人79人桃園不足有35人新竹是19人苗栗也15人都在不足的情況下調配來桃園的話"},{"start":6205.563,"end":6222.273,"text":"那現在未來你的用什麼產業學合作沒有根本解決方法那尤其是現在在招考方面現在我們國營事業跟公營的事業招考的人數也是減少了所以你的招考的人數減少之後你提高了這個這個整個這個鑑別的這個門檻讓他們都能夠進來這樣子你的數值會不會變得更低啊"},{"start":6228.635,"end":6252.727,"text":"是不是這樣子?跟委員報告齁,我們整體的用人數量一直在增加齁,就像前段時間台電大概是2萬6,然後一直增加到2萬7對,因為你的程式進步了嘛,所以用人會增加,但是招考,考來報考的人數是減少的,那你那個入取率又提高,那我們本期是擔心你未來的這個品質數值上跟你的鑑別度的話都會下降了"},{"start":6253.247,"end":6272.79,"text":"所以我們在新進員工的薪水的部分也做得比較高你薪水調高了可是你的環境有沒有改善呢?你跟民間公司的話競爭民間的人才你很難因為民間公司整個環境都有改善那你本身公營事業都沒有要改善啊你調整薪水你的薪水比得上民間公司嗎?"},{"start":6273.671,"end":6300.373,"text":"當然薪水沒辦法跟一些特別大的這個就是競爭的人力的問題但是在住宿條件方面我們都提供宿舍盡量滿足當地的整體的工作環境還是要獲得改善所以你要積極本席提醒你未來這5年你的缺口會更大所以你整體的不能靠產學了我聽到你講產學我就擔心了我們實質的技術人員人力人才才是最重要的好不好"},{"start":6302.418,"end":6315.708,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請陳庭菲委員請做詢答在楊瓊怡委員詢答結束之後我們休息3分鐘人性管理謝謝謝謝主席我們是不是請我們的次長我們再請連次長"},{"start":6337.356,"end":6362.555,"text":"市長我想有一個資料可能要請你要密切瞭解密切注意就是說我們有得到一個訊息就是最近中國聯通跟他的香港子公司一直有私下密集在接觸臺灣國際藍網通信股份有限公司"},{"start":6364.414,"end":6388.605,"text":"那這一家有限公司呢我為什麼要特別來提出來因為我們去了解他大概有兩張我們的這個電信事業登記證明還有電路出租業務特許執照這兩個非常重要因為是特許因為這個次長你"},{"start":6390.197,"end":6416.885,"text":"從我們過去的工業局然後在產發署這樣一路到現在所以你應該很清楚這兩張執照很重要吧是不是都是屬於特許喔都是特許的喔沒錯那這特許有什麼重要為什麼中國聯通還有他香港的子公司要接觸如果他被收購了嚴不嚴重"},{"start":6420.353,"end":6420.994,"text":"但是除了數位部以外"},{"start":6436.636,"end":6451.428,"text":"你們投審會如果說今天當然你要密切注意欸而且我再去吊了這一家台灣國際藍網通信股份有限公司齁"},{"start":6453.037,"end":6472.383,"text":"這裡面我們看到他的公司簡介裡面公司的嚴格是2010年就結合兩岸電信營運商建立連接淡水到福州之兩岸直達海底光覽"},{"start":6475.533,"end":6504.825,"text":"這他的嚴格裡面公司嚴格裡面就這麼寫了然後我們在整個特許執照也是給他另外我還看了他在裡面公司的優勢這他資料裡面網上都查得到的他的公司優勢中國聯通在台最佳戰略合作夥伴他大剌剌的"},{"start":6506.411,"end":6521.328,"text":"他完全也不會隱晦也沒有隱瞞喔可是在我們整個電信特許的狀態之下這危不危險危險危險"},{"start":6526.615,"end":6550.263,"text":"在整個我們的特許行業在電信特許行業當中結果這一家公司有可能是中國聯通極盡所能在接觸的然後他也非常直接在他網站當中就直接寫明了他是中國聯通在台最佳的戰略合作夥伴"},{"start":6553.667,"end":6576.181,"text":"市長 這個要小心啊 這要注意啊 要調查清楚啊 要跟我們投審會瞭解另外一個要注意的 如果他是藉著我們台灣的企業 然後藉口呢"},{"start":6577.827,"end":6606.222,"text":"有沒有可能這個一定會審查因為後面你那個資本出資的背景是什麼這個如果要進來台灣還是要經過可是他如果用台灣目前擁有的資本下去做一個收購甚至他的預算不用給那麼多嘛不用給那麼多嘛我先把你換下來先把你拿下來之後"},{"start":6607.745,"end":6634.22,"text":"再去做後續的這有可能啊?是不是有可能?今天委員已經有提醒這件事如果我們有看到這有關聯性的時候我們會去注意這樣的一個關聯性我們會去注意所以如果台灣國際藍網通信股份有限公司今天要做任何的變更我們要小心要極度小心啊好不好今天我正式把這樣的問題然後"},{"start":6637.182,"end":6657.442,"text":"跟我們的次長就教甚至把這個資訊給你因為中國聯通剛好在接觸然後他的網路上也寫得很清楚他是中國聯通在台最佳的戰略合作夥伴所以剛剛好嘛"},{"start":6659.198,"end":6683.289,"text":"所以中國是不是會用榆木混珠的包裝方式然後甚至用港資或是台資來做收購該公司的股權來獲取台灣電信的牌照來統戰台灣這個要注意啊因為他這兩張特許牌是非常重要喔"},{"start":6684.935,"end":6690.285,"text":"是非常重要喔這兩張特許牌就是中國聯通中國看中的喔"},{"start":6691.792,"end":6718.092,"text":"所以如果今天他沒有用所謂的正常的管道程序而是用榆木混珠的利用台灣國際藍網同行股份有限公司本來就已經有這兩張特許執照了再用所謂的中資台資港資不管就是用榆木混珠的方式要企圖拿到你這兩張的特許權"},{"start":6720.76,"end":6740.509,"text":"甚至去干涉到我們所有的通信系統這現在在發生了而且極度有可能已經在進行當中了所以拜託次長要跟我們的投審會甚至因為如果用我們的這個台灣的資本"},{"start":6743.902,"end":6759.179,"text":"投診會看不到嗎?因為今天我剛才已經說今天委員已經提醒這件事情那因為他如果說他背後會有一些故事或是一些相關的那我們就用這種關聯性來注意這件事情"},{"start":6760.495,"end":6788.892,"text":"一定要密切注意因為他這兩張的特許牌是非常非常重要的而且我再一次強調中國也就是看中了這兩張這兩張現在要拿很困難啦不這麼簡單啦他就是看中了這兩張看中了這兩張之後這一家公司也不會演的在他的網站當中說他就是中國聯通的最佳戰略夥伴"},{"start":6790.519,"end":6819.048,"text":"這麼清楚的所以拜託我們的次長請我們的投審會要密切我們會請投審會密切注意這件事情然後我們希望在未來國營事業的部分你在招攬我們所有的一些人才的部分還有我們要如何招聘要如何規劃要如何讓我們在用人費的部分要怎麼能夠恰到好處"},{"start":6820.697,"end":6822.178,"text":"國營事業要帶上來國營事業要帶上來沒有人才"},{"start":6837.059,"end":6837.379,"text":"請楊瓊英召委諮詢"},{"start":6872.969,"end":6900.908,"text":"謝謝主席首先請連次長跟國營會請國營會謝謝次長好我想首先請國營會來說明我們四大公司台水、台糖、台電、中油目前我們的人員各多少以及我們預計要退休的人員有多少"},{"start":6902.466,"end":6902.747,"text":"這裏,這份就有了。"},{"start":6912.621,"end":6937.032,"text":"跟委員報告好我們現在台電公司是到目前為止是兩萬九千三百九十五人然後中油公司是一萬六千八百四十四人台南公司是三千兩百零九人台水公司是五千七百七十九人預計不管是自用或者是建立退休這個是現在員工的總人數對那你預估到今年你會減少多少人"},{"start":6938.533,"end":6939.914,"text":"主席這個時間要扣掉剛剛已經從頭到現在數字還搞不清楚"},{"start":6959.918,"end":6970.471,"text":"市長你在這裡曾董事長以前也是次長你們都是管這四大公司我們真的國營會加油如果說連這樣的數字都講不出來"},{"start":6972.841,"end":6979.026,"text":"這個是離譜至極請說明整個會議今年會退休是2640人我們預計可以進多少我們去年招考的人數去年招考人數今年會進來的那也是差不多就是2000多人差不多這個數字我們請四大公司的負責人請上"},{"start":7005.003,"end":7021.573,"text":"四大公司我相信大家都知道你們的辛苦今天之所以排定這個議程也就是把問題提出我們到底要怎麼樣充足我們的人力而且穩定軍心因為現在全球都在搶人才"},{"start":7022.193,"end":7041.544,"text":"國營會"},{"start":7042.447,"end":7055.508,"text":"對,我們大概應該是這樣因為我們現在台中的資料還沒有出來了大概跟委員報告就是假設像今年預定退休2640人當中大概借零退休的大概一半"},{"start":7057.017,"end":7082.471,"text":"那你說的是差一層多但是大家都認定國營事業單位是最榮耀的單位為什麼這個自願退休的近占一半左右原因是什麼好我們姑且待會再做討論我們把問題提出之後坊間也有說因為我要申請我要申請一個電表我至少要規劃三個月幾個月"},{"start":7083.672,"end":7083.792,"text":"來 請教台電"},{"start":7109.035,"end":7123.188,"text":"有沒有這個問題?人力不足以及在基層因為經驗斷層衝擊導致這個原因各位報告就是說這些相關的工作除了台電自己本身做也有一些委外"},{"start":7124.409,"end":7137.432,"text":"那應該要這樣講就是整體來講臺電剛剛本席所提問的是不是我們的原因之一那個加接電表裝電表簡單主要是前來一個線會比較請針對問題回答我們今天是要提出問題解決問題這麼長的時間可能有零星的個案"},{"start":7147.196,"end":7163.102,"text":"可能有,所以還是有。接下來其他的有沒有這個問題?台水有沒有這個問題?水公司目前是新裝工程的設計,現在我們人力都沒有什麼問題。因為這個技術上他們進來應該大概學習了3到6個月就應該可以上手。"},{"start":7170.205,"end":7194.364,"text":"有新進人員大概半年內可以學習跟得上那本席在這邊跟國營會以及次長在這裡喔也就是這一些的人員我們退休之後新進補進來但是留人才才是重點早期我們有討論國營事業單位如果委外的太多你自己沒有訓練你的基本功那"},{"start":7195.124,"end":7218.319,"text":"當然你會有斷層所以我仍舊這個原則也就是希望我們四大公司我知道在最基層是最辛苦的你們一定要想辦法去留人才出來那我也請你們四大公司將你們預計要怎麼樣留人才讓我們的人才可以充足穩定請素面資料給本席你們請回座接下來我要談論電的問題請做其他請回"},{"start":7222.902,"end":7229.451,"text":"市長跟店請留住本期要請教我聽到了台電要取消動漲"},{"start":7231.308,"end":7254.042,"text":"因為從蔡英文總統的時代我們將學校、農娛、社福甚至去年就擴大到這些的項目那據聞台電要宣布要取消是為了說我們的虧損太多如果取消這些我們可以節省42億對外這樣子的訊息是正確的嗎?"},{"start":7255.103,"end":7255.684,"text":"委員講的那個不完全對啦請問"},{"start":7270.34,"end":7284.921,"text":"台電要取消對農娛學校社福團體的電費動長改由各部會自行決定是否要編列預算來補貼 台電說可以省下台電42億 是不是"},{"start":7287.564,"end":7289.787,"text":"台電目前是要取消這些動漲是不是?"},{"start":7307.501,"end":7324.735,"text":"是由機關來編預算請問來享受這一些優惠的電價我請教連次長次長請教這是政策性的問題留台電來回答也不是當那由次長你來回答他不是取消他是說還是維持那個電價"},{"start":7328.558,"end":7331.401,"text":"那請問次長您是經濟部長您正在就是說先取消動長然後再由各相關所屬部門去編列預算來補足動長的那個預算是不是這樣子"},{"start":7354.763,"end":7357.827,"text":"會不會?教育部會編嗎?"},{"start":7372.099,"end":7391.93,"text":"我們聽不到訊息欸我們希望要公開透明教育部會編嗎因為我告訴次長苦不能苦孩子欸這是蔡英文總統任內以及去年的時候所擴及的包括社府請問內政部會編嗎教育部會編嗎教育部長在教育委員會那邊已經有說他會去編他會去編喔內政部會不會編"},{"start":7401.194,"end":7428.172,"text":"你們既然是行政院的指示那所以本期要請教因為再苦也不能苦孩子我想你認同這一句話吧再苦不能苦孩子你點頭你也認同喔這個叫市長習慣喔這個曾董事長也點頭再苦不能苦孩子所以你這個政策下去要由各部會去編我們要看現在正在編列明年度的預算會不會編足"},{"start":7430.894,"end":7445.928,"text":"我可以這麼解讀嗎?動長之後取消動長之後由各部會去編都會編足這個額度是不是如此?因為只有在行政院有去做協調有共識這一部分我們會在行政院"},{"start":7446.769,"end":7451.133,"text":"這邊我們會再來跟各部會再來督促這樣請行這邊來督促因為教育部已經剛剛在教育委員會那邊已經說他會編了我想其他部會因為既然是在行政院那邊協調出來的大家來教訓教訓"},{"start":7462.526,"end":7483.417,"text":"所以市長也不需要我們台電一直背黑鍋嗎 對不對所以我一句話再苦不能苦孩子再苦不能苦弱勢的社團 對不對這大家的對這個共識所以我也希望這個政策我要請問行政院這樣拍本定案到底是台電決定行政院決定還是總統決定誰決定那這是在行政院開會決定的"},{"start":7489.728,"end":7503.292,"text":"誰拍板定案的?因為這是蔡英文總統當時任內所做的決定那現在賴總統我們現在卓院長拍板定案誰提議啊?誰提議?是誰提議?經濟部提議嗎?台電提議嗎?誰提議的?大家要知道誰提議的請告訴我誰提議?"},{"start":7519.448,"end":7523.232,"text":"提議是台電 經過行政院的跨部會決定 是不是要打臉蔡英文總統 是不是啊 因為他的政策你取消嘛 那我們不管你怎麼做 本席這當然是取消 動長取消"},{"start":7540.732,"end":7561,"text":"改一個方式由各部會去編組所以我們要追請聽本席說所以我要追到底各部會會不會執行大委這個我們要追因為我要再次說明再苦也不能苦孩子再苦也不能苦弱勢團體這個認同吧市長這個認同喔"},{"start":7566.256,"end":7582.727,"text":"對認同好最後一個議題我給你功課你來回答我要重申一下這個是那一些若是團體或是社會團體這個是沒有取消的齁我說它的電價又會是沒有取消的喔只是說要來請說明一下"},{"start":7583.647,"end":7593.715,"text":"沒有取消棟長對 他還是棟長齁但是那一些增加出來的本來是由台電吸收那現在只是你現在叫內政部去編列嘛對對對對那你要叫好喔出錢的方式是換了另外一個方式而已各部會回歸各部會是不是對對對好 那各部會我們就看他有沒有編"},{"start":7605.304,"end":7619.425,"text":"再苦不能苦孩子再苦不能苦弱勢團體我相信這個沒有政治話術大家全民一定都支持對不對最後一個議題我功課給你夏季的時候呢保證夏季倍容量"},{"start":7620.126,"end":7647.063,"text":"不低於10%甚至7%517呢需量反映因為需要所以你買電買了一度12塊國部長在這邊都有回答所以我要請問因為夏季電量會增加那你們預估預估在夏季的時候會不會因為缺電所以你的備載容量不到你所說的10%再買12度的電會不會如此做"},{"start":7649.436,"end":7653.861,"text":"來 台電董事長會不會如此做我們現在的準備就是要達到葉建峰7%這是我們在做的準備那所有的準備都是因為那個機組能夠正常運轉"},{"start":7664.594,"end":7667.957,"text":"那如果有任何的狀況我們當然就會依照我們的調度的規則來做好 照預計規則你們現在有的一度12塊再下跌仍舊有可能委員你剛才所說的虛量反應他有很多種 我也跟您多次做過說明大家都內行的外公幾分十塊你有必要可以再增"},{"start":7685.851,"end":7705.762,"text":"平均價格沒有到這一個水準當然你不要再給我雅雯爵士說數字的問題最高就可以買到12塊這個是國部長這個自己都說的有的我本期也不是跟你說你每一度都買到12本期問你你有可能你的機制裡頭有一度跟民間買到12塊對不對"},{"start":7707.483,"end":7708.203,"text":"所以你們不斷也要S口"},{"start":7726.414,"end":7731.996,"text":"不斷的ESCO的時候甚至有說從遠端冷氣需要的時候作為送風模式或者關閉給電費扣減節電每度10塊的回饋金這個政策據聞要7月1日開始執行是嗎?"},{"start":7743.404,"end":7747.208,"text":"這個是我們看你們的網站喔這個是節電政策你講的S口也是一個是不是節電這個是我們網站上公告業務處的新的一個對所以是不是7月份要開始如此事辦沒有錯如此事辦嘛好也就是想辦法任何的S口我要一個結論"},{"start":7761.221,"end":7777.441,"text":"如果不缺電為什麼會有這麼多的政策那沒關係我們也希望S口是全世界我們必須要推動的但是我仍舊需要有充足的電穩定的電綠能的電也就是乾淨的碳排的電對不對"},{"start":7779.096,"end":7808.419,"text":"是不是?朝這個方向對不對?那個缺不缺電跟節電沒有關係本來你電充足你還是要節電啦節電對省你的成本省口袋的錢本時也說了ESCO都是大家全球要推動的都要推動但是你反推在缺電的時候你會買到一度12塊這是人民的納稅錢所以你深思你去討論好不好7月份就開始這麼做你的網站上面所公布的嘛你說要試辦嘛是不是"},{"start":7809.359,"end":7810.26,"text":"我們現在先休息三分鐘"},{"start":7850.037,"end":7850.659,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8071.704,"end":8072.245,"text":"邱志偉委員請作詢答"},{"start":8097.509,"end":8118.334,"text":"謝謝主席 請這個市長休息一下啊 休息一下台電李董事長 台電曾董事長 中油李董事長 台水李董事長 台糖楊董事長"},{"start":8121.946,"end":8137.253,"text":"今天主要是討論國營事業人力的問題那當然國營事業受到經濟部相關的這個任務指示裡面也有內部經營管理的問題人事的權益問題我想請教所以董事長都在"},{"start":8139.361,"end":8167.831,"text":"這個企業經營有內部的環境跟外部的環境內部的環境你會面臨到這個你的進環境的這個內部的強勢你的強項是哪裡你的弱項是哪裡外部經營環境你的這個機會是哪裡你的威脅是哪裡所以我想請教四位董事長你們針對目前在你們執政之下在你們這個主政之下市家國營企業的15萬的分析先從中游來好了"},{"start":8170.356,"end":8177.392,"text":"內部,你們強項在哪裡?弱勢在哪裡?外部的機會在哪裡?他的威脅在哪裡?"},{"start":8181.298,"end":8208.885,"text":"根文報告那當然中國公司身為國營事業因為相對穩定福利也比較好所以基本上這就是應該是國營事業的一個強項那落下當然如果落實相對的其實這個都還蠻相同那相對也因為國營事業所以有很多框架有很多這個滑頓面這一點是比較難一下民營企業那現階段面臨到外部經營環境的機會在哪裡"},{"start":8210.905,"end":8232.03,"text":"那目前我以中油來講的話其實就是現在面臨全球淨零碳排的這個危機危就是機會嘛是危機也是轉機我想對於中油公司來講我們再往這悠遊減碳節能未來的這樣子一個轉型的方向來想我想這是非常好的機會那外部威脅其實"},{"start":8236.491,"end":8251.025,"text":"我想這個都是相對的一樣剛剛講的這是一個機會那當然本身就是一個威脅嘛因為中油公司是能源事業是石化產業所以面對全球暖化氣候變遷我們是海嘯第一排"},{"start":8251.846,"end":8278.66,"text":"我們是首當其衝所以針對SWAT你也很清楚嘛是強項要讓它更強,弱項要讓它變小是然後你的這個機會要讓它擴大你的這個威脅要讓它降低這是你作為一個董事長該有的責任對不對是是你作為一個董事長你現階段你作為國營事業那你需要經濟部給你協助的思想最目前在目前最迫切的最迫切的是什麼思想我想這一部分目前政治的問題是中油公司的政治的問題嗎"},{"start":8280.026,"end":8289.648,"text":"當然幾個面那當然就是說人力資源的方面當然需要大部還有包括大燕共同協助嘛當然以現在來講我們的實際人是16800多位嘛844位那事實上我們的編制員是17000多還有大概1000多個一個缺口那多久時間可以補齊"},{"start":8304.392,"end":8321.555,"text":"但是這個缺口可能在我7月16日一批退休 明年1月16日一批退休 缺口會擴大 也是就大概持平大概balance這樣一個狀況 所以這些聯視長都有聽到了就是他們的這個目前需要進一步協助的事項 這個回去要跟部長再報告一下"},{"start":8322.296,"end":8338.212,"text":"那政治的問題需不需要經濟部協助?那當然就是說在未來的轉型很多往新能源的領域都需要大部跟大院來協助包括這個青龍方面的一個發展那包括短期以短期來講我們新市區已經在5月13號獲得這個中國市"},{"start":8341.707,"end":8343.868,"text":"所以每家國營事業都有相同的問題"},{"start":8370.525,"end":8371.667,"text":"謝謝李董事長謝謝鄭董事長台電鄭董事長一樣的問題請教鄭董事長"},{"start":8376.457,"end":8399.905,"text":"內部的強勢跟弱勢外部的機會跟威脅剛才李董事長提到的臺電也都有一定的相當性最重要的大概是這樣子臺電主要是我們有工程人員還有機電類的人員跟現在國內最主要的產業其實在人才上是最高度重疊競爭的那這個部分我們其實也透過很多方式來解決"},{"start":8401.305,"end":8424.551,"text":"首先第一件事我們包括今年條新我們都把那個比較就是讓新進同仁條的比例相對來講比較高我們坐在這邊的副總啊等等的幾乎就是只按照規定在跳我想說盡量增加提高新進人員的底薪和福利這個是重要的事另外一個就是說人才禁用上面其實國營會有幫了不少忙人事總處也幫我們忙"},{"start":8427.532,"end":8451.838,"text":"就是讓我們在既有的人事法令裡面可以彈性的規範我們都運用但接下來在人才競爭上面我想大概還是兩個大事第一個就是我們在同類型的行業類別裡面的薪資在人才的競爭上面是不是能夠有一個比較合理的薪資第二個是人事金融的彈性希望能給我們彈性這是你們內部經營的問題你了解這個問題"},{"start":8454.199,"end":8472.106,"text":"希望提出有效解決方案 外部有哪些有競爭的機會 還有哪些威脅其實就業務來講 其實最大的狀況就是 其實電力的需求是一直在成長的 就一個公司營運來講 你被需要其實是最大的機會"},{"start":8473.286,"end":8481.503,"text":"那最大的挑戰也是同時在這個被需要的同時能夠充分的供應這是我們相對來講要去努力的"},{"start":8486.999,"end":8512.876,"text":"我想現階段大概委員也清楚就行政院編了一千億的預算還沒有到位對 這個還帶審議那個已經送來立院了已經送來立法院現在就是還上帶大院審議我們要快速 立法院要加速審查因為立法院議程很多所以我們希望能夠有機會派上 謝謝我們大家一起努力盡快讓這一千億能夠通過好 那個台堂那個楊董事長一樣問題請教您"},{"start":8516.656,"end":8535.513,"text":"謝謝委員大概基本上我們國營事業的內部問題大概都是差不多一個是同仁的一個是心態我是感覺我來台堂大概一年多我覺得是心態方面在內部方面大家要一個調整心態要怎麼調配心態他們是基本上是這樣國營事業當然有他的保障"},{"start":8539.036,"end":8565.381,"text":"那一方面國營事業有類似公務員的一個保障但是以台糖來說在外部上面台糖的300多個品項全部都要跟外部做競爭跟油、電、水是不一樣所以我們台糖的同仁在這一方面基本上在這一方面也表現得相當的還可以表現在這個獲利方面"},{"start":8566.601,"end":8567.482,"text":"那來自於外部的威脅有哪些呢?"},{"start":8589.08,"end":8610.181,"text":"基本上啦就是我常說台糖在一二級產業做得非常好但是在外部上面我們就比不上所謂的第三級行銷方面在外部要跟大家做競爭一定要有一個行銷但是行銷需要編列的這個費用費用的話你投入的費用沒有產出一定的效能"},{"start":8611.118,"end":8612.278,"text":"最後請台水理事長趕快問大家請稿"},{"start":8637.907,"end":8654.975,"text":"謝謝委員指導,那開水公司大概我們也自己經常在做SWAT分析,那水公司的一些優勢最主要我們全省各個官網都有聯通在一起,可以相互做一些支援調度,那因為"},{"start":8656.235,"end":8682.808,"text":"水公司我們有很多的專業就是水處理或是摘水工程的專業的人才在我們水公司因為畢竟是我們國內也是最大的一個摘水事業所以所以相關的我們有很多的廠商可以從而做利用那另外在類似的部分大概我們就是有一些管線比較老舊的問題可能大菸這邊也經常在關切"},{"start":8684.189,"end":8684.91,"text":"另外我們也去討論AI智慧的這個區塊"},{"start":8711.19,"end":8727.331,"text":"進步很快速或許我們可以導入一些的這些科技來加強我們的管理那我們也是注意到我們公司的一個體質就是最近可能也是極端氣候影響可能孤寒的議題或是說有一些停塞的議題"},{"start":8728.331,"end":8752.684,"text":"市委董事長都在就是說如何把內部的這個所面對的環境把它這個優勢把它強化把它這個相對劣勢把它縮小把外部的機會把它擴大多元化這個威脅降低這是大家共同的責任那連市長你都聽到了市委董事長他們都有提出他們相關的看法那最後這個30秒我跟市長講就是說"},{"start":8755.265,"end":8775.794,"text":"議員．"},{"start":8776.575,"end":8797.937,"text":"這個一定有相關的原因出現 相關的造成這個原因是哪 是什麼原因 針對這個問題能夠提出解決方案 最起碼讓女性在職場 在國營事業特別是台電中油的職場能夠維持這個比較高的一個比例 可能有相關法律的限制讓他們這個比例沒有辦法提升 跟國際同業來比較"},{"start":8800.736,"end":8808.499,"text":"應該是沒有法令限制這個啦 但是因為對理性應該是行業別的比例就比較低嘛 比法國比韓國 也是你們差5%"},{"start":8818.163,"end":8846.412,"text":"我覺得國營事業是可以就不同的職系或職位我把這個問題點出來的但是你要尊重這個問題我再跟他們提高理性的員工比例也拜託四位董事長針對我今天所提的SWAT的問題是不是有個書面資料因為執行時間太短沒有辦法講得非常清楚是不是有個書面資料提供給我針對你們提出的SWAT的分析我們再來做一些討論"},{"start":8849.046,"end":8849.586,"text":"陳昌明委員請做詢談"},{"start":8870.946,"end":8873.248,"text":"首先有請我們的連常務次長 台電曾董事長"},{"start":8884.85,"end":8903.771,"text":"首先孫董你現在是專任台電的董事長以前是政務次長現在我們新的常務次長上任了但是你在當政務次長的時候你也有答應我在一個後龍好望角那個關關地區"},{"start":8906.509,"end":8925.764,"text":"所以要經個能演展示館你也親自會館了好幾次不過你現在沒有當政務次長當臺電的董事長我不曉得你有沒有交代入屋給我們新的政務次長還是常務次長這個到底還要沒有效啦不要淪亡正義我是相信你講話很有信仰的人"},{"start":8926.505,"end":8947.845,"text":"那個跟委員報告就台電的部分負擔的費用這一塊我們都清清楚楚會執行那連次長基本上我相信次長接這個工作那個政務是延續性的你一定要趕快延續下去不要跟我拍拍屁股就走了齁我陪你跑了好幾趟啊要趕快去欸"},{"start":8948.706,"end":8949.647,"text":"我今天問的就會比較輕鬆"},{"start":8968.447,"end":8986.589,"text":"那整個你在當次長的時候還有台電董事長的時候你說你的台電是消波塊為了一直通貨的膨脹各方面所以很多都由台電來吸收但是最近有一個問題大家在討論"},{"start":8988.072,"end":9009.313,"text":"而且幾天好像禮拜五的報紙出來說台電虧了一屁股的債現在包括我們的社福學校42億的電價要由各單位來負擔啊你的小破塊做到現在只有在這樣的情形之下你說"},{"start":9011.274,"end":9025.322,"text":"那個1000億的補助下來調整電價9個月有600億所以還差500億今年但是啊天然氣這邊會協助你中油還有現在藍莓的採購價格今年會平衡"},{"start":9032.446,"end":9052.543,"text":"那幾千億在那裡啊你這個42億你不要去說做一個台中的公路小破塊一下子就消失掉了你要去要把它取消掉我給你建議不然你去我們那邊聽你去台電那邊聽你落土的話你盡量就照那個家族"},{"start":9053.479,"end":9074.709,"text":" 那個月應該的現在調整價格 會六度的財政都比較困難 有分等級的 你又叫人來負擔這個學校社會團體 阿你孫政長院長當時在講的時候斑斑有冷氣 喔 講到跟我們那樣還想要去困亂 現在開始要愁眉苦臉了"},{"start":9075.709,"end":9092.263,"text":"我感覺哈哈若是團體要看狀況來補貼不要一次的取消這個不然會引起民進黨執政選前一套選後一套一直那斑斑有冷氣斑斑有電腦到現在到這小風雨啊"},{"start":9093.204,"end":9120.419,"text":"我為你們的政黨著想不要看囉我是以善意的提出來看你這個要怎麼改變應該是這樣講就是說事情是因為那個是在就是上電價調整前的一個討論會議上面做出來的一個決議狀況就是這個樣子就是電價維持一個幅度然後針對相對弱勢的要有一定程度的補貼這一件事"},{"start":9121.84,"end":9134.664,"text":"政策沒有改變只是費用的部分由這些目的事業主管機構來辦中央的目的事業主管機構中央就全部付錢啦啊這個洞補這個洞都一樣的洞啊人家對台電覺得以前你們犧牲的形象現在以後沒有你就要給我經營啊我知道你在"},{"start":9151.07,"end":9153.171,"text":"提醒什麼事情但我會把事情解釋"},{"start":9180.213,"end":9187.852,"text":"可是現在其他坐在底下的3位委員都是六都的他六都有錢啊他土地的價格那麼高他們不會講話啦"},{"start":9189.557,"end":9215.73,"text":"我很自信不會講話回六都了你不要以為票桌的地方你們在廠場照顧票桌的地方你就好啊去人手啊那不合理啦報告委員我們大概是這樣子齁就是說我們會把所有這些成本的一些還有您提到的一些關於對我立了中央編制預算全部補治六都的時候我跟你講他們錢太多他們都是被挖變工的挖只要賣吃一千瓶大概都夠了"},{"start":9216.75,"end":9244.892,"text":"我們要賣資3萬瓶還不過來禮頓會阿絕不會這樣逼搞做事情有各種地區不一樣不要以為六都的你以為把他們弄好不講話一定會廢除非六都的話應該特別注意阿好好考慮一下好不好不然的時候我相信這個問題一定會持續下來原來這個政府選前就什麼答應都好選後什麼都沒有了"},{"start":9245.697,"end":9272.003,"text":"好不好 感謝你一下謝謝 謝謝委員還有剛剛談到人事問題第一個所以這就顧啊剛剛出席委員有講到人事彈性你這個很重要你們銜接的期間你給三個未來訓練這個人給他熟悉狀況以後的意外就比較少人事總裁這個要特別注意到其實7月"},{"start":9273.325,"end":9300.868,"text":"人的成本非常重要你這邊給他信任一下然後去銜接的話事情會安全掉這樣有道理嗎現在去做不是你們退了一個才進一個不能這樣做啦臺灣你曉得要退休的時候就要提早跟人事總裁人事行政是聯合的不要一板一眼這個是跳動的時代好不好"},{"start":9302.715,"end":9330.331,"text":"再來我覺得臺電、中油、自來水還有茶糖都是很優秀的人才薪水有沒有把它提高現在都搶人才你不管臺電、中油進去的我都覺得很優秀以前留下來的產種包括自來水公司、包括臺糖那些以前比較善良的人沒辦法去留學都在臺電、中油那裡吃飯了自來水公司那時候還算穩定"},{"start":9331.793,"end":9358.274,"text":"你現在大家都在搶人才啊我剛剛有講到AI的人才現在是世界都在我們台灣求人才只要稍微基本的話都會納入裡面啊因為我們台灣很偽詐把台灣的AI人才訓練完了以後都送給日本送給美國送給歐洲台灣還要每天去找人因為他們可以印美鈔可以自己印薪水特別高"},{"start":9359.985,"end":9360.165,"text":"10萬多人"},{"start":9389.96,"end":9393.121,"text":"好好這方面研究一下好不好"},{"start":9414.773,"end":9414.793,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":9439.458,"end":9459.114,"text":"謝謝陳常委員 謝謝那個剛剛董事長特別強調的1000億他已經送到委員會來這個是在財政委員會審議那這個是要撥補給台電公司跟剛剛陳委員所提的他們地方沒錢的沒電的跟這個是不相關的因為我們我給我們議會人士報告"},{"start":9461.556,"end":9479.508,"text":"我們經濟委員會由此以來不分藍綠白我們都非常理性的在問政我也希望我們行政部門就委員所要提的跟剛才邱志偉委員所要的四大公司你們的這個SWAT的部分要請核實把資料給他們就證如早上這個"},{"start":9482.21,"end":9484.152,"text":"接下來我們請賴瑞仁委員"},{"start":9510.916,"end":9511.477,"text":"臺灣有沒有缺點?"},{"start":9526.287,"end":9549.822,"text":"報告委員讓臺灣不缺電就是臺電的責任所以沒有缺電的問題部長有提到他為了要讓外界更加的清楚說7月份又公開相關的電力資訊我看到其實已經相當多的資訊公開不管是電力資訊包括用電曲線圖包括這個備轉容量率包括發電量都有了"},{"start":9550.282,"end":9550.943,"text":"7月份還要公布什麼樣的數據?"},{"start":9556.936,"end":9579.256,"text":"部長的意思是對下一個階段的預測就是對未來的預測所以7月份會公布8月份的預測數字那現在資料出來了嗎我們正在整理所以7月1日會如期的來上線來公布下一個月份的數字因為部長現在出訪我們希望能夠有機會回來跟他報告過把這事情確認下來"},{"start":9584.951,"end":9586.792,"text":"7月份公布8月份的相關的用電的一些,所以等於電量的準備的狀況,隔一個月後的"},{"start":9603.4,"end":9614.488,"text":"我看了一下這個昨天的資料啦齁其實用電量是3629萬千瓦那預估會到最高到4070但是當天最高的會到4629萬千瓦這個數字是正確的嘛對不對對就我們網站上的資料還是9點20的資料是所以從這樣來看的時候其實如果以"},{"start":9627.376,"end":9644.464,"text":"例年最高大概是2022年7月22日4074萬千瓦的話其實我們的量還是多出了將近有600萬千瓦所以量其實是都有超前做一些準備的"},{"start":9644.884,"end":9661.114,"text":"報告委員這是日間風啦齁你現在提的這個日間風的部分我們現在都在掉落上完全都沒有問題好那有的會比較擔憂因為日間的時候其實太陽光電是相當強的齁我看幾乎占到第三的占比第三啦齁燃氣最高"},{"start":9661.638,"end":9664.4,"text":"我們現在葉尖峰的狀況基本上我們最少應該我們現在都有7%左右的那個被轉容量"},{"start":9678.87,"end":9705.505,"text":"備轉容量力在7以上所以7以上的話基本上還是穩健的因為其實夜間封的時間跟過去日間封時間會比較長很長的時間那夜間封時間會比較短所以我們基本上就是備轉其實是因應基礎風險的問題那時間比較短我們在預估的量上面我們準備量就會不必準備的那麼多不用準備那麼多當然就比較不會有太多的一些消耗"},{"start":9706.466,"end":9726.443,"text":"對,因為成本,那個倍轉容量是成本是,那我也看了一下齁,這個大概也預估啦齁,在因為7月份大概都是有可能是用電的高峰啦齁,氣溫也比較高,那但這幾天氣候相當的異常,溫度已經相當高,所以我看已經有的站到了全台的歷年的這個用電量第三名了齁,那當然下個月"},{"start":9727.163,"end":9751.609,"text":"也有可能還會增加那我看你們的預估是會用到4,119萬千瓦這個大概就創下新高了那如果在這樣的狀況下的話我們用電還是沒有問題嗎跟委員報告日間風的部分我覺得那個大家不用天天都追他有沒有破紀錄因為今年可能夏天那個破紀錄就是比原來那個4074高的機會都會非常的大對"},{"start":9752.409,"end":9777.575,"text":"好 那個是 這個沒有什麼 這不是對我們來講 不是那個意外但我要講的是電力上面的供應是沒有問題的嘛 對不對 是所以也請國人放心啦 台電這一塊跟經濟部有做萬全的一些準備因為日尖峰會一直有 會有新的紀錄出來 這個在今年度一定是常態對 特別是6月份已經開始有很多的開始在往上衝高 那7月份有可能還會再 是的 好 那"},{"start":9778.515,"end":9792.645,"text":"所以大概到整個用電量看起來就是整個用電狀況是沒有問題的那我要講的是其實大家擔憂的未來的部分我也看了一下從今年的部分我們會除以大概是272萬千瓦但是我們會進來的會有新增的會有333萬千瓦"},{"start":9797.068,"end":9826.334,"text":"包括到2025年一樣這個新增的都比除役的多2026新增的比除役的多2027新增的2028新增比除役的一樣都多大概100萬千瓦左右所以政府在這一塊其實也預做了準備現在我們不斷的講半導體產業的投資或者是講AI這些投資用電有可能會增加包括這個回台的投資不斷的增加但是這一塊電力都是做了準備我覺得這一塊董事長要不要再說明更清楚一點"},{"start":9827.094,"end":9852.447,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們這一塊現在結出來的都是那個比較大型的基礎那目前還有再生能源還有等等一些基礎調度的一些做法那我想幾個事第一個事情是我們節電這個當然還是first fill這就對減碳都有很大的幫助其他的部分就是我們在台電在新基礎的建設上面這一段時間確實是高峰"},{"start":9853.928,"end":9870.738,"text":"那也感謝各位委員的支持讓我們機組有更新的機會那我想說這個工作非常的重要我們要儘快的更新新的機組上來所以知道嗎不只今年沒有缺電問題在未來如果照這樣的規劃這還都是大型的機組嗎還有其他的在任人員都進來所以也沒有缺電的問題嗎"},{"start":9872.198,"end":9899.432,"text":"我們現在有三個電廠在蓋新的機組有兩個電廠環評通過在招標那有兩個電廠的計畫現在在做可行性評估那要報怨來核准所以同步進行所有的整個電力建設那也包含電網在內所以都超前部署了不管是這個電廠的部分包括電網的韌性的部分都做了一些部署了嗎"},{"start":9900.313,"end":9908.102,"text":"我們這個部分真的是因應電力的需要我們會提前來做更早的就是以台電過去的"},{"start":9909.552,"end":9911.874,"text":"為什麼還是坊間很多不斷的在講缺電缺電的問題?曾董事長"},{"start":9939.956,"end":9944.291,"text":"說明一下為什麼坊間還這麼多的講缺電造成人心惶惶"},{"start":9946.346,"end":9970.778,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我想說這個部分我們會盡全力來說明那當然台電公司在供電穩定上面持續的努力來證明這件事可能是最重要的不過我們要穩定的供電也需要大家支持新的電力建設所以我們希望新的電力建設能夠得到支持"},{"start":9971.498,"end":9989.592,"text":"必然你要用電但是如果不蓋新電廠甚至連變電所都不蓋的時候那電網應該都遇到問題如果沒有蓋新的變電所也沒有辦法拉電網其實很困難那尤其是報告委員我簡單說一下就是我們現在很多電箱人行道上的電箱過去都是因為纜線要地下化而產生的"},{"start":9992.634,"end":10020.775,"text":"那這些電箱我們也常常被要求要移動位置啊等等的一些狀況我們會警力但是真的要拜託社會能夠支持電力設備因為我們現在需要這些電力設備我也希望有些比較老舊的設備的時候也要提早來更新不要再動不動就有時候發生一些這樣的狀況停電往往就很容易被渲染成好像缺電那我認為這個其實對於整個所有的辛苦的同仁都是不公平而且對台灣的整個投資環境對台灣整個民生都會受到一定的影響"},{"start":10021.513,"end":10046.12,"text":"我想配電系統的加強我們會努力早上我有跟召委請了一個半小時的假也是在做這一件工作我想我們會加強努力不過還是要跟委員報告一件事電力設施的興建一定會在我們生活周邊因為電一定要送到你家所以這些電力設施的興建希望能夠得到社會更多的支持"},{"start":10046.34,"end":10063.779,"text":"這一個我也在強調這個我們看一下今天早上這個數字北部的部分電力其實相對是比較需要由南部跟中部送上來的所以我還是希望這個台電還是要不斷去克服這個問題北部相對電力上是吃緊的"},{"start":10064.36,"end":10091.561,"text":"來﹗"},{"start":10092.966,"end":10115.348,"text":"這個部分我們一定會來做說明我舉個例子就好了協和電廠除役以後北部的這個用電它將近有600萬千瓦但是未來它可能有470萬的一個電力的一個缺口這樣的缺口的部分可能就是如果北部不找到這些電力來源的話全台灣當然不缺電但是中南部必須送電上來"},{"start":10116.108,"end":10141.072,"text":"所以我認為這個事情還是要經濟部跟台電要審慎去思考電力用這樣的傳送其實不是一個好的方式除了耗損包括對於中南部也不見得是一個公平的方式我希望這一塊台電公司跟經濟部要審慎來做處理好不好最後再問一次啦董事長台灣有沒有缺電的問題我們會達成穩定供電的目標講得更清楚一點台灣有沒有缺電的問題就沒有缺電的問題我們會達成穩定供電的目標"},{"start":10151.278,"end":10174.705,"text":"來我們請牛許廷委員請做詢答謝謝主席經濟部次長中油的總經理跟董事長有請好我們請三位謝謝市長午安這個"},{"start":10178.413,"end":10188.092,"text":"今天談的是國營事業的人才斷層問題這本席認為這正本清源之道當然你旁邊兩位算正面典型這個我給新政府一個肯定為什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":10189.38,"end":10217.998,"text":"你大概不太清楚因為大家都常常講說國營事業董事長等等常常淪於政府的酬庸的工具但你旁邊這兩位剛好就不是這樣兩位都是從中油基層出生比如從組長開始然後做到主任然後做到做到這個副總總經理然後再做董事長這是正確的我希望從經濟部開始不是只有中油其他的也應該是以內生為主你要鼓勵基層員工讓他們的生涯規劃可以爬到一個非常"},{"start":10218.638,"end":10218.738,"text":"但是﹖"},{"start":10242.185,"end":10251.516,"text":"但是人才問題歸人才問題我還是要問具體的問題這個最近本學選區出了件大事就我們桃園煉油廠國光電廠二期擴建計畫裡面辦理環評結果在調查過程中發現廠區裡面有5.5公頃的土地遭到重金屬的污染"},{"start":10261.027,"end":10288.524,"text":"突然中芯、鎳、砷等重金屬嚴重超標石油、碳氫化合物也是嚴重超標舉個例子來說芯的濃度每公斤140014100毫克是標準值每公斤2000毫克的7倍石油、化合物等超標達到10.8倍根據中油調查污染的土地在廠區內那請問你們誰要回答都可以請問誰製造了這樣的污染"},{"start":10291.671,"end":10320.245,"text":"委員跟委員報告事實上我想委員剛剛都把這個狀況都已經講出來了嘛那事實上我們去因為國光的這個電廠要設置我們要做營業的一個移轉必須要具備這些法規上土壤的一個檢測嘛檢測報告出來其實我們也是有點shark怎麼會有這樣子的一個剛剛委員提到的嘛包括新嘛包括內嘛包括生嘛包括TPH總是有碳水化合物等等"},{"start":10320.985,"end":10341.517,"text":"所以我們後來去追去看齁因為雖然是5公頃多那事實上後來點的位置調查出來是8-3 11-12點狀的不連續狀沒有啦你回答我的問題就好了誰造成這個污染的嘛對那所以我們就去追嘛有可能最有可能就是說當時在12號這一塊地方因為在民國86年要蓋"},{"start":10343.638,"end":10344.239,"text":"所以是不是煉油廠就是污染的源頭嗎?"},{"start":10358.653,"end":10385.338,"text":"是嘛就簡單講就好了嘛這個喔本席作為龜山出生我以前是龜山做市議員然後現在一樣桃園第一選區的這個立法委員這是我選區的杯哥阿為了台灣的經濟發展我們捐出了土地犧牲了空氣品質當然為了成就這個國家能夠順利的往前走可是回報的結果卻是我的我家鄉的土地一而再再而三的受到重創這對地方來講不太公平吧董事長"},{"start":10386.218,"end":10388.119,"text":"臺灣市政府6月29日通過了,我們現在下一步要做的就是水保計畫。"},{"start":10402.648,"end":10429.197,"text":"我們希望水保計劃能夠趕快到國營展開政策董事長又把這話聽清楚來了既然啊前面捐出土地換來是這樣子一個悲劇的結果你要我繼續用這塊土地來貢獻你的發電啊這本行完全沒辦法接受這件事情才剛在地方開始發酵你想想看要是龜山的鄉親桃園的鄉親瞭解了這樣的事情之後他們巴不得我們前面都討論過煉油廠牽廠的問題我們都願意退步說退一步講說我們用務實的角度讓你給你時間讓你去做轉型"},{"start":10430.877,"end":10448.277,"text":"可是你看看我們相信煉油廠相信政府的結果是什麼是我的土地持續的來受創啊是我的污染越來越多啊然後你現在講說我要在這裡蓋發電廠這本席完全沒辦法接受我選區裡面的鄉親也沒辦法接受本席是建議啦你這土地既然遭受污染富裕是一定要的"},{"start":10448.857,"end":10463.562,"text":"復育完就復育完不要再想在這個地方再蓋電廠免得二次傷害三次傷害N次傷害這對我桃園對我龜山是絕對不公平的事希望經濟部也好中友也好針對這樣的決策再行討論這是第一個本期的主張"},{"start":10464.142,"end":10483.668,"text":"第二個這我們也跟郭智慧部長其實已經約好了這會期一結束麻煩夏祥走一走瞭解一下周邊居民的心聲瞭解一下大家對於煉油廠存在的壓力跟無奈並且提出有效的改善的措施還給桃園人公平正義我想那是非常有必要的好不好好謝謝辛苦了好謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":10489.105,"end":10512.606,"text":"市長在這裡因為四大公司我們都非常的希望就陳如中有一樣是由基層提拔上來這個等於我們要怎麼樣穩定人才他可以留住這是一個最大的一個鼓勵最大的鼓勵好謝謝請回座接下來我們請李博義委員李博義李博義委員我們請陳佩瑜委員"},{"start":10519.155,"end":10519.617,"text":"謝謝主席 有請經濟部次長 謝謝我們再請連次長"},{"start":10529.429,"end":10547.72,"text":"市長午安時間有限我就直接跟您討論了在關於國營事業的體育幹事納保這個議題呢從去年我們辦公室的10月總質詢到現在8個月了上一次經濟部長來的時候部長也說如果他在民間企業工作階段這些球員就是他的員工當然要納保那相關納保的問題其實應該不是你們說了算我們也問過勞動部勞動部說"},{"start":10552.162,"end":10571.293,"text":"就目前的做法從來可能會有問題可是你們如果真心願意為這些體育幹事納保從來都不會是問題只有台電要不要做的問題那上一次質詢之後呢我們跟台電繼續討論台電給我們一個說法說這些體育幹事是練習生我們來跟次長看一下"},{"start":10572.321,"end":10598.543,"text":"目前這張是男子棒球隊我們來看一下他的人數組成還有他的年紀19歲到25歲說這些是練習生再往下這個是女子籃球隊16歲到32歲一樣說他們是練習生再來男子足球隊18歲到30歲一樣繼續說他們是練習生次長您的社會工作經驗非常豐富你覺得按照這樣的年齡人數還有薪資這些人真的是所謂的高中生跟練習生嗎"},{"start":10602.133,"end":10606.376,"text":"事實上呢如果要處理台電體育幹事投保的問題重點是經濟部部經濟部應該遏止國營司繼續自認是勞保的主管機關勞保的主管機關應該是勞動部對吧次長"},{"start":10626.248,"end":10653.437,"text":"對可是呢到底怎麼解釋誰該投保誰不應該投保不應該讓經濟部的國營司跟台電來自行處理甚至國營司在跟我們辦公室討論的時候他還語帶威脅的說那不然就解散球隊啊不然就解聘選手啊這是我們國營事業該有的態度嗎賴清德總統在上任前提出要升格體育發展司而不那相關的體育產業政策落到經濟部卻是這個狀態次長您可以接受嗎"},{"start":10656.044,"end":10683.17,"text":"我覺得這個應該要由勞動主管機關來做解釋是 謝謝次長您的回應非常正確應該勞動主管機關我們不會只有提出質疑我們提出了對策我們辦公室設置了相關運產發展條例的修正草案也就是根據勞動部的建議其實在人員聘用上你們可以不受到國營事業管理人管理法人員禁用的限制所以我們提出了這個草案如果按照次長您剛剛說法您支持嗎知道"},{"start":10683.61,"end":10684.81,"text":"經濟部必須秉持政府保障選手權益精神,直接為這些體育幹事納保勞保"},{"start":10706.915,"end":10725.435,"text":"甚至您剛剛說勞動部已經表示只要合約寫清楚就可以了沒有終身僱用的問題如果這次你們不能接受那中策我們來看支持我們班東市提的運動產業發展條例的修正讓國營事業球隊彈性用人法院這件事情並不會有台電之前一直說的他就變成終身人員這個問題了不會有這個問題下下策"},{"start":10729.349,"end":10754.418,"text":"半年內如果還是沒有辦法解決相關問題必須要由經濟部主動申請勞動部協助進行勞檢確認勞動的樣態有沒有符合僱傭關係而不是讓台電片面解釋也就是說我們積極的提出問題我們也提出解放次長請問我們時間有限請問您的態度是這個我們待會去研究一下好不好好那我們辦公室也會再積極追蹤好謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝"},{"start":10761.333,"end":10776.219,"text":"謝謝 接下來我們請黃珊珊委員請做詢答謝謝主席 我想也請次長跟台電董事長我們再請次長跟曾董"},{"start":10783.292,"end":10796.458,"text":"兩位好我想大家最近都是看到AI的風氣運用然後台灣也在這一波裡面可能會是將來非常重要的當紅炸子機那其實最重要的台灣有這樣的能量"},{"start":10797.022,"end":10816.408,"text":"﹚"},{"start":10817.358,"end":10821.281,"text":"對您來說我們現在包括設置相關的大廠我們都需要做環評對吧"},{"start":10843.715,"end":10848.82,"text":"但我曾經質詢過環境部奇怪我們的環評裡面水要評估唯一不要評估的就是電有電力配置的環評機制有但是基本上都是台電"},{"start":10866.124,"end":10880.826,"text":"不是他自己嗎?對以台灣的狀況來講現在都要台電部長你覺得次長還有董事長其實這些剛剛講企業有責任那我們是不是應該賦予企業相關的對於電力自己自有自足的責任"},{"start":10881.927,"end":10906.292,"text":"否則我們現在是用全民撥補的方式來補助或者是讓這些企業他們可以在臺灣生產我的意思是說第一環評裡面要把企業的責任也加進去不單單只是台電的責任兩位同意嗎我跟委員報告我們是幫台電想辦法你不用負這麼大的責任"},{"start":10907.639,"end":10925.825,"text":"那個委員我跟您報告一下現在其實在環評的過程我把實況我收一下實況沒關係我的意見就是說簡單來講就是科學園區環評現在都已經包括再生能量多少都寫死了其實都在框都在框科技業啦是因為現在他們其實是台灣的最大量尤其是台積電他4年成長了將近70%的用電但是我們台電的發電量其實成長了7.5%"},{"start":10935.968,"end":10956.794,"text":"也就是他們占比台灣用電的比例會越來越高現在最大的會來的量能大概就是所謂的數據中心跟資訊中心全世界的大廠都要來台灣設資訊中心但是在能源管理法裡面我們有沒有對於這些數據中心資訊中心納入我們的相關的規定"},{"start":10957.762,"end":10964.645,"text":"目前有嗎?但是資料中心不是製造業所以目前沒有在能源管理法裡面納管是嗎?要做了所以接下去其實我認為給企業相關的責任讓他們也負擔一部分的責任否則現在再生能源大家生產完賣給台電比較划算"},{"start":10982.054,"end":11002.319,"text":"因為台電收購價很高所以大家做完之後沒有要做自己的事情但是反正賴著台電就好了所以我的意思是說在國外很多小區或者是很多的廠房他們可以自己發電自己自主多的才能賣出來但是我們現在是多的先賣給你你再提供給他他永遠是賺錢的"},{"start":11004.703,"end":11018.475,"text":"臺電公司每年撥補不是辦法所以接下去是怎麼樣資產活化然後讓企業負擔相關的電力責任或者是將來有一天也許他們可能有各種不同的機組發電"},{"start":11019.881,"end":11041.978,"text":"他們自己可以自己制度的情況下台電可以把這些權限讓企業自己負起責任我想未來的方向應該是這樣沒錯吧對法律也輕鬆好不好希望台電不要老是到立法院來挨罵我們希望他們你們變成是台灣電力配置的轉運站而不是單純負擔責任的唯一的"},{"start":11043.1,"end":11043.12,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":11063.114,"end":11067.438,"text":"數據中心我們上個禮拜國防會有來報告剛剛要運算中心他們我們現在規劃只有200"},{"start":11076.596,"end":11076.996,"text":"的規劃如果是"},{"start":11100.114,"end":11100.614,"text":"接下來我們請參議委員請做詢答"},{"start":11128.107,"end":11133.608,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請這個蓮次長好我們再請蓮次長我也好次長那因為這個媒體有報導這個國營事業也出現人才荒那看這報導我一開始也不太相信我想國營事業應該是大家爭先恐後想要進來的"},{"start":11156.055,"end":11175.935,"text":"那如果以這個表格來看我右邊這一個表格你看從90年到109年整個全國的公務人員這公務人員包括行政機關的以及國營事業的公務人員你可以看到傳統行政機關的公務人員是逐年增高"},{"start":11177.116,"end":11205.367,"text":"從90年的時候21萬到109年的時候是25萬7千那相對國營事業的人數的比例從12萬現在降到了6萬也就是說這將近20年的時間國營事業的人數是減半這是砍了一半的一個人數那未來3到5年內還有所謂的一個退休的一個退休潮"},{"start":11206.067,"end":11212.068,"text":"那如果這樣的話市長國營事業會出現這個人才荒嗎?"},{"start":11213.345,"end":11237.283,"text":"跟委員報告我們已經注意到這個所以今天那個召委才安排了這樣的一個專案報告來提醒我們說要有相當的配套措施來解決這個問題那我們現在剛才委員講的這個應該是有的是民營化的問題齁那我們我們這個四大公司現在目前也針對今天召委所排的這個我們提出了一些相對的應對策那"},{"start":11238.284,"end":11265.202,"text":"剛剛委員講的4年內要填補將近4900人那因為我們現在目前一年在招聘的差不多有1000出頭那應該是可以補足這樣的一個缺口所以未來的話你們還是一樣會用退役補一的方式來做這個這個人員的禁用當然一般是一個蘿蔔一個坑但是我們因為現在有這種缺口我們會稍微採取比較彈性的做法這樣比較彈性是怎樣"},{"start":11266.263,"end":11288.786,"text":"所以說現在就有缺口了,所以可能現在就需要再補了對,要提前補,把未來的有一些要招進來好,那你們未來如果要再補的話,因為我事實上我們知道說很多國營事業,我們國營事業會經營很多面向那事實上很多面向的國營事業在經營上都不會有民營企業來得有競爭力"},{"start":11290.128,"end":11293.752,"text":"那如果我們未來整個國家大概是朝向減碳然後要所謂的ESG那這個都是未來國營事業必須要"},{"start":11312.713,"end":11323.489,"text":"領先就是說要做在民營去還要討錢那未來國營事業是不是應該要有更多的關於減碳的一個人才的一個徵用"},{"start":11326.694,"end":11354.315,"text":"這部分我們部長有告訴你說不管在減碳或是在剛才講的AI的應用這一部分國營事業要帶頭來做我們目前已經規劃要開始進行像中油現在都在公安在環保很多部分都已經開始用比較成熟AI那個鑑別式的那個技術已經開始在做了有齁有有有在做所以你們都有在推動齁好那我是不是再請那個自來水這個董事長"},{"start":11355.489,"end":11369.887,"text":"我們再請李董事長董事長我先前就有跟你談過事實上我們自來水"},{"start":11371.313,"end":11388.83,"text":"不管是站在減碳的角度或者是在節水的角度我們要怎樣減少這個水的一個浪費這個很重要我相信你也知道事實上以現在大概整個這個水供會有漏水的比率最高在哪裡你知道嗎"},{"start":11390.067,"end":11408.915,"text":"以我們公司內部現在的調查那漏水率最比較高的區域是在基隆跟屏東基隆跟屏東那如果以一個地區嘉義跟雲林的話是不是沿海跟平原比起來沿海的地方是漏水率比較高那為什麼會這樣"},{"start":11411.256,"end":11419.365,"text":"因為沿海地區有一些腐蝕性的問題啦,鹽分比較高。鹽化嘛,鹽化就是一樣是鐵壓的東西嘛,沒辦法這麼強鹽化的一個結果,所以算鐵壓也是會有的嘛。對。所以現在"},{"start":11429.696,"end":11441.346,"text":"自來水公司也有計畫說針對沿海地區避免它這樣的一個研化所以可能要換成高強度的HDPE的水管那你們這樣汰換的計畫目前進行到怎樣"},{"start":11446.511,"end":11471.067,"text":"我們那個更換的管材的部分還是放在我們降低漏水率的整體計畫裡面那像嘉義武器處這邊我們每年給武器處分配的預算大概有七八億左右那我會請我們嘉義地區區處針對沿海地區漏水率比較高的管段優先把它汰換"},{"start":11473.138,"end":11494.211,"text":"這個也要請教次長啦就針對這個漏水的這個問題嘛事實上先前也有討論過我們可能會直接用專案的方式然後來協助自來水公司然後讓他們有一筆比較大的預算然後在這幾年內用最快的速度解決漏水的問題因為我們現在知道說"},{"start":11496.115,"end":11513.082,"text":"這個水真的是吼 這個得來不易啦 要不要再加多水吼 因為吼 這個水管的問題吼 水管的問題 然後讓它流失了就很可惜 所以到底我們這樣的一個專款的一個計畫 耐用專款然後來減少漏水的這件事情 有辦法來爭取嗎"},{"start":11514.534,"end":11528.057,"text":"他們現在是提出800億要來請那個董事長是嗎?對啦,跟我們報告我們現在的降低漏水率計畫現階段是執行到113年那我們已經提報了114年到121年的8年的一個計畫總經費將近808億那這個計畫現在已經送給行政院來審議中"},{"start":11536.058,"end":11536.078,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":11565.626,"end":11581.749,"text":"接下來我們請葉元之委員請做詢答馬上請台電董事長謝謝好我們請曾董事長"},{"start":11590.642,"end":11607.951,"text":"總統好,我們現在在我們新北市啊最近停電越來越嚴重了我們特別去看了資料五月份的時候新北市呢大概有39處有發生停電的事故那其中37次是跟潰線或是跟一些線路有關"},{"start":11609.008,"end":11637.951,"text":"那6月份的時候更誇張了6月份近兩個禮拜停電已經28次就是兩個禮拜14天嘛28次平均一天就停電兩次那整個6月份大概有48次的停電那修復的時間有的也很長像5月份有一次在三重從停電到修復大概8個小時那6月份有一次是在新莊停電大概修復7個小時我不知道董事長你覺得這個是正常現象嗎"},{"start":11640.378,"end":11657.763,"text":"委員如果你願意聽我可以花一點時間解釋但是我時間沒有很多簡單講就是都會區現在都被要求線路要地下化所以我們過去用電線桿在送電的現在都在埋到地下那後來因為在路上有這些人孔蓋我們又開始做路屏"},{"start":11658.763,"end":11685.056,"text":"所以現在人口蓋有很多都下地就基本上被AC路面埋掉所以我們要找到這些人口蓋時間會稍微長一點那我們也在研究一些方法就是對於線路故障的偵測方式能不能夠有更好的方法來處理所以我們現在一方面要解決線路故障的問題那另外一方面就是修復的部分我們也就是說要儘快找到另外一個修復的部分我們如果在都會區的話"},{"start":11686.337,"end":11708.55,"text":"要做交通維護等等這些相關工作的準備確實時間上面相對來講會壓力比較大我剛剛指出的是兩個問題啦你回答一個嘛就是說現在修復時間會花比較長嘛但是第二個我覺得現在停電的那個頻率啊也越來越高那我當然知道每一次台電都要講說不是缺電啦只是事故啦但對一般的小老百姓而言沒有電用就是停電"},{"start":11709.17,"end":11728.935,"text":"他不會管你說是缺電還是說什麼發生故障只要台電沒有把那些輸配線系統把它處理好對小白海星就是沒有電用就是很不方便所以我希望說台電可以面對現實啦我們現在確實是停電的狀況是越來越頻繁越來越嚴重那台電不是之前有編一筆預算是做韌性電網的嗎這編多少錢"},{"start":11730.615,"end":11733.539,"text":"主要是輸電陷入還是比較大型的高壓供電那您關心這個問題我也做一個說明我們現在看到是今年度1到3月停電的次數是下降的"},{"start":11745.836,"end":11751.86,"text":"我剛舉的數字6月份在我們新北市近兩個禮拜就28次今年1到3月都還下降4月5月跟5月是上升6月我們現在還在做後面的統計6月的那個成長幅度沒有像4、5月那麼高"},{"start":11763.829,"end":11791.957,"text":"我們現在看到具體的狀況是你現在不能夠比爛嗎你現在講的我現在講的具體你只要一次發生停電大家就非常不方便我們是要讓停電的減少發生不是說好像我已經比之前好了我覺得心態上不是這樣啦我現在跟您分析說問題是什麼不用分析啦我跟你講你永遠都是在講藉口我們現在是希望你解決問題當然以你在台電待這麼久你要掰一些理由出來當然很容易啊但是對小老百姓來講就是沒有電可以用嘛"},{"start":11792.637,"end":11815.316,"text":"我現在是希望你可以解決問題委員我就是要回答你問題出在哪裡怎麼解決問題是已經持續發生好幾年阿幾年前的時候你們都說推給小動物阿小動物出來背鍋也好幾年了阿那為什麼這幾年都沒有辦法把問題解決呢過去這幾年其實是配電系統的跳電事故是在下降沒有我"},{"start":11816.437,"end":11830.553,"text":"你一直在跟我講這個我舉的就是具體的數字具體的數字就是之前兩個禮拜在我們新北市停電就是28次平均一天就停電兩次這就是最實在的數字啊"},{"start":11832.42,"end":11857.111,"text":"對沒錯那你現在我先把問題告訴你然後你現在給我的態度是這樣代表說下一次可能一天兩次停電也沒有什麼大不了的啊因為你台電態度就是這樣啊你現在一直在跟我講說這個很正常這是正常狀態所以呢預告應該是市民要去習慣以後就是一天可能在新北市就是平均就兩天跳電大家習慣就好是這個意思嗎"},{"start":11859.568,"end":11884.248,"text":"委員我還是要再說就是說全世界我們可以來參照這工作是怎麼樣子進行那如果您的標準是永遠都不會跳電這個我們也會來考慮不是永遠不會跳電是你的頻率越來越高希望你可以去瞭解把這問題解決那如果說董事長你的態度一直是說這正常啊跳電正常啊民眾沒有電用也沒差反正我們董事長有的做就好啊"},{"start":11888.592,"end":11890.573,"text":"委員你不可以把我沒有講的話加在我嘴裡我沒有這樣子講因為你剛剛從到尾都不覺得我沒有聽到你講一句話說你要去解決"},{"start":11908.283,"end":11908.784,"text":"好 敬禮委員 知委員"},{"start":11930.997,"end":11933.138,"text":"請先敬禮 謝謝"},{"start":11960.871,"end":11961.031,"text":"國營事業能力斷層"},{"start":11978.052,"end":11989.384,"text":"那我帶立法院都在一直倡議壯世代所以我今天來特別趕來給你提一個解方希望你聽得下去"},{"start":11994.128,"end":12014.856,"text":"從這個曲線當中看到這3年來從2020年到2023年我們的工作增加了108萬人工作量很多但是因為少子化所以這個求財大家搶人才搶得越來越困難"},{"start":12016.766,"end":12034.737,"text":"我們從這頁看,國營事業也是一樣因為現在以前是金飯完、銀飯完、鐵飯完、銅飯完但是這些保障越來越少,福利也那個所以你看我們的錄取率從2010年來台電從4%增加到13%"},{"start":12042.022,"end":12042.462,"text":"我們看到現在民間的"},{"start":12059.275,"end":12059.295,"text":"市長"},{"start":12077.674,"end":12077.814,"text":"OK 看起來"},{"start":12105.769,"end":12106.069,"text":"好,所以呢"},{"start":12126.175,"end":12149.897,"text":"這一方面年輕人才很困難所以我也告訴我們應該要從高齡的人才那過去我們從這個表當中我也覺得我們現在用人單位都還是挺有在1970年代把主要的勞動人口放在下方年輕人口就這個金字塔的下方但是台灣已經進入到2040年"},{"start":12152.449,"end":12179.556,"text":"主力在高層的人口所以要往這一方面那個要政策要大大的調整你不是一直想最近有一個台鐵的錄取一個員工64歲考上10%照常考試錄取的結果錄取你幾天就開始要準備退休因為65歲要退休所以呢相關的這一些也是很荒謬的事情"},{"start":12180.456,"end":12199.81,"text":"所以這裡也看到事實上這個我在談的高齡壯世代不是我們特別是人力單位其實有研究報告他的策略跟創意事實上達到人生的最高峰在60到80歲之間不是你想像的是我們沒有好好的去挖掘他的人力"},{"start":12201.01,"end":12225.064,"text":"所以國營事業好好地研究因為你們用了龐大的人力所以我最近在推動勞基法54條目前要送到二讀這個改了一個54條本來是65歲退休以後要改成如果勞工有工作意願得經僱主及勞工雙方協議延長之"},{"start":12227.145,"end":12245.128,"text":"所以國營事業是不是率先來想應對於這一方面的工作所以最後是不是可以請經濟部可否承諾針對國營事業善用中央世代55家豐富的人力資源可不可以在兩個月之內提出中央世代人力的運用計畫"},{"start":12246.51,"end":12246.53,"text":"謝謝市長謝謝"},{"start":12277.867,"end":12291.095,"text":"接下來我們請陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在現場我們請林德福委員林德福林德福委員不在現場我們請林思敏委員林思敏林思敏委員不在現場我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在現場我們請伍麗華伍麗華委員伍麗華不在現場我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做詢談"},{"start":12305.41,"end":12316.941,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會長工作夥伴、媒體資深女士先生、有請經濟部連次長和台電曾董事長。好,請以上兩位。"},{"start":12323.788,"end":12338.318,"text":"市長好 董事長好 在不久前我們郭部長做了一個描述很傳神說台積電的良率市長有沒有聽過他說台積電的良率像增1000個小籠包950個都完整沒有破皮的你有聽到嗎"},{"start":12339.798,"end":12361.871,"text":"有齁?那你覺得台積電的良率多少?95.5%是不是?他有的應該更高有的更高不良的大概只有0.5%那同樣的台電的用戶有多少戶你知道嗎?董事長知道嗎?超過1500萬1500萬戶用這個良率用這個良率我們每天要維持多少戶以上的不斷電才算是優良1500萬"},{"start":12364.994,"end":12370.858,"text":"董事長你算數比較好你說95%的良率那就是要小於75萬戶少於75萬戶嘛就是停電要少於75萬那請問台電維持每天都是標準嗎"},{"start":12380.086,"end":12381.766,"text":"市長,你們要對我們的國營事業訂出一個類似台積電良率的要求"},{"start":12405.714,"end":12424.565,"text":"一般的航空公司有里程事故率多少萬里程才出一個事故多少萬的供電戶我們才多久時間發生一個電力事故把這個定給台電讓他來好好表現好不好可以嗎總統可以接受喔好來我來問一下今天是退休潮啦說要出現斷層有這個情況嗎有沒有"},{"start":12427.448,"end":12445.854,"text":"呃 跟委員報告我是問那個次長 有沒有你台 國營事業現在退休潮已經慢慢開始了但是我要跟你強調我關心的不是台電的或中油或我關心的是這一個 來請看下一頁你知道我們屏東縣的自來水普及率多少嗎 我們董事長可以幫忙一下有沒有達到八成 次長知不知道"},{"start":12446.354,"end":12457.917,"text":"沒有沒有來請問董事長李董事長是請問你覺得台平東縣的政策普及率好不容易才從不到六成提升到快七成主要問題是人力不足還是預算不夠"},{"start":12459.382,"end":12468.069,"text":"跟委員報告,其實也不是從不到6層,應該更早,106年是不到5層,那現在已經突破7層全國的平均是92%,94.9%問題是說這個率算不夠還是人力不足?"},{"start":12480.981,"end":12492.951,"text":"這個應該不是人力不足啊不是人力不足但是我問過主計長前任主計長跟前任主計長他說有你們能做多少我通通編給你過去前章幾期是不是得到權力的支持這個因為"},{"start":12495.462,"end":12514.951,"text":"我們從前章計畫裡面有一個你直接簡單的講因為時間有限有沒有權力支持你的預算這個預算是從計畫是水利署都來了權力支持嘛權力支持但是為什麼今年明年的資格21你知道嗎因為主計總是說你們最多水公司只能做到19億"},{"start":12516.741,"end":12524.482,"text":"市長你要了解問題了沒有水公司目前的量能我們給他再多的預算他沒辦法執行發報完成阿是不是人力太少"},{"start":12525.558,"end":12552.754,"text":"跟委員報告齁應該不只19億啦因為本身我們屏東七處不只19億對我們還有一些管線開放的管線工程所以你們大概可以做到多少我們一個七處屏東七處啦齁一年大概二三十億還有我們一個工程處對包括工程處包括工程處那我就去跟主席長要求要給我們三十億加強屏東市自來水的普及可不可以"},{"start":12553.314,"end":12559.357,"text":"你保證喔 市長他答應喔委員我們已經送了一個800億的企劃喔是甚麼 東東藥水企劃多少是屏東縣的自來水普及我們因為普及率的提升我們是繼續在辦業館其實過去111年是編了20.5億112年編了17億113年編了15億 為什麼"},{"start":12581.363,"end":12609.412,"text":"因為其實呢這個是關於鹽管工程還有一個叫做檢疫自來水我知道你們去明年度的檢疫自來水原住民地區有保留有留下來有保住但是非原住民地區是不是刪掉了市長是不是這樣是因為什麼原因錢不夠還是人力不夠市長直接回答你如果說錢不夠我就去爭取這個這個是水利不是自來水檢疫的是我知道檢疫是水利署你是市長啊問你他剛好而已啊"},{"start":12610.586,"end":12611.066,"text":"市長你知道嗎?"},{"start":12611.066,"end":12611.186,"text":"知道"},{"start":12639.335,"end":12665.92,"text":"知道嗎?董事長也跟他講了,對不對?是不是過去下一頁,你們過去曾經這40年來你們的水質的污染處理問題有薄膜技術你們在極端氣候和汗老不均的情況上有沒有辦法去提供水質水量的穩定?是不是你們一度要去一個國家去協助他們制裁者工程,有沒有?有,有,這個之前有要協助新南向哪一個國家?印尼印尼我常去,印尼真的需要協助"},{"start":12667.034,"end":12687.548,"text":"市長我要告訴你如果你們擔心水公司這幾年擴充人力國內的自來水普及提升之後這些人力沒出去我告訴你叫做ODA叫做政府開發援助在中國叫做一帶一路但在台灣我們的國營事業的工程品的優良超過中國台灣這種信用超過中國他什麼意思"},{"start":12688.248,"end":12717.694,"text":"台灣的政府提供貸款給對手國對手國把這個貸款用來僱請台灣的營建工程商幫他們做基礎建設、公共設施錢都不會到外國政府口袋通通都回到台灣的承包商知道這個ODA嗎?好知道下一頁所以最後呢就這樣我們國內的基礎建設如果國營事業行有一律完成之後這些充實的人力可以用來不是閒置人力這些優質的人力可以用來協助政府做ODA你知不支持?市長知不支持?"},{"start":12719.099,"end":12735.26,"text":"支持好所以回去告訴你們的副理事長官所以公司的人力給我多支持一下預算我來幫你爭取好不好如果以後有這個量能幫其他的國家有幫國家興建他們的基礎建設用OT的方式好不好好謝謝主席"},{"start":12737.614,"end":12763.047,"text":"謝謝那那個主席總書要告訴他不要亂講話數字差那麼多謝謝接下來我們請何欣淳委員何欣淳何欣淳委員好主席台宣布我們登記發言的委員除了不在場之外其餘都已經發言完畢那這個詢答結束我們有委員謝一鳳委員"},{"start":12766.449,"end":12790.02,"text":"楊瓊怡委員．林俊憲委員所提的書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報。書面質詢以及為其答覆的部分請於相關單位於一週之內以書面答覆並複製本會。本日議程處理完畢我們要特別感謝我們議事組人員還有行政部門謝謝大家媒體朋友大家辛苦了我們明天禮拜四繼續開會現在休息"},{"start":12801.43,"end":12802.452,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}