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就是說"},{"start":189.586,"end":215.548,"text":"這個業者你可以通告說業者是不是你要先經過部落的同意如果涉及到部落的部分不要到時候第一階段完成了第二階段也完成了結果後來部落不同意對不對那對業者是非常不利啊所以這個然後這個環境影響評估的期間第一階段第二階段部落就一直很擔心啊"},{"start":217.308,"end":246.409,"text":"所以這個部分是一個兩方面怎麼去共同的去處理如果能夠先進行原住民部落的諮商同意不是沒有這種案例喔對我就講這個蘇花安交通部的蘇花安蘇花公路有一段有三段要改為它名稱叫蘇花安蘇花改都已經完成了那另外蘇花安"},{"start":248.038,"end":255.588,"text":"在最後一次的環評大會之前呢所有的部落的諮商統一都已經完成了"},{"start":257.484,"end":283.649,"text":"所以這個部分其實是可以這樣子去進行的部長你認同嗎我非常認同因為任何的開發單位一定要跟當地的住民例如說原住民做好細部的溝通他們送進環評到我們那邊我們來審核才有機會會比較容易過關因為任何的單位其實都可以來旁聽也可以來發言這是環評的制度所以我們都有考慮到這個系統所以例如說我舉例像台東"},{"start":284.849,"end":298.48,"text":"這陣子說要蓋陸域風機其實我相信當地的原住民就感受到這樣的東西我們也聽到了也看到了所以我們也表態了這個有關提到這個東海岸的風電的部分"},{"start":301.001,"end":319.134,"text":"以這樣的一個密密碼碼,25個,還不包含那個大武達了那個海岸,那個如果包含的話就更多了所以整個東海岸就是這樣,所以這個部分,第一個,相公所反對"},{"start":322.027,"end":339.243,"text":"長濱鄉公所已經表達反對成功鎮公所表達反對當地的人民表達反對台東縣政府也表達反對所以最近都被質詢除了你被質詢之外還有經濟部經濟部長直接就說如果地方政府反對"},{"start":341.138,"end":350.723,"text":"我就不同意是那就還要不要進行所以這個部分的乾脆就所以你們跟內政經濟部跟環境部這邊要讓這個要讓這個業者知道啊啊"},{"start":357.287,"end":386.014,"text":"尤其是經濟部長說他親口在立法院說的台中憲政我反對他就不同意那就還要不要進行不要浪費任何的環境影響那個開發他如果是在地的居民有很嚴重的反對其實要過的機會環評委員都會縱觀所有的那我們最近看到很多陸域封建的案例都是附近的民眾的反對地方的反對沒有辦法過的所以這個是最重要要聽民意是最重要的所以我的意思說這個相關的這些意見"},{"start":387.214,"end":413.032,"text":"也請這個因為法案沒有明訂所以就請這個環境部因為現在目前是這個案是在你們在公告嘛對還沒有送進來完全沒有送進來是開發單位自己在準備當中對對對所以你們要把這些意見給他們因為我們一般相關的這些意見無法我們沒有管道給他們嘛所以你們可以給他們"},{"start":413.992,"end":440.859,"text":"現在我們因為有大量幾千則的意見在我們環境部的公開網站留言所以我們都會給開發單位他們會知道會處理但是沒有的就是在立法院經濟部長親自回應的時候地方政府不同意他就不會准那個也要讓他們知道我相信他們比我們更清楚謝謝謝謝曾天才委員發言那接下來請陳培宇委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":901,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時24分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：有請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。根據環境影響評估法第五條，開發行為對環境有不良影響之虞，就要進行環境影響評估。而這個環境影響評估法第五條所列舉的總共有10項，當然第11項是其他經中央主管機關所核定的，光這10項來講，基本上所有的進行都會涉及到什麼？都會涉及到原住民族基本法第二十一條，政府或私人以原住民族土地或部落及其周邊一定範圍內之公有土地從事土地開發、資源利用、生態保育及學術研究，應諮商並取得原住民族或部落同意或參與。所以這個部分就會涉及到底要先進行原住民族基本法第二十一條的規定，先經過部落諮商同意，還是直接就先進行環境影響評估，然後又有第一階段、又有第二階段，對不對？這樣會有到底誰先誰後的問題，然後對原住民族而言哪個有利，或是對業者而言哪個有利，因為要進行環境影響評估，不管是第一階段或是第二階段，都要花不少的費用，要吧？"],["彭部長啓明：要。報告委員，原住民的這個法跟環評法是兩個平行的，我們這邊是環境的把關，所以如果是涉及到原住民的，我們就會請原住民相關的單位一起來審這個案子，我們還是最終的環評保護、環境品質保護的機關。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，不太一樣，因為你請原住民相關的機關，譬如說原民會去參加環境影響評估的會議，它不能代表那個部落，對不對？不能代表那個部落，所以這個是不一樣的，那個只是一個相關的機關去參與而已，所以這個部分我個人的建議是，如果涉及到部落的部分，你可以告知業者是不是要先經過部落的同意，不要到時候第一階段完成了，第二階段也完成了，結果後來部落不同意，對不對？那對業者是非常不利啊！然後環境影響評估的期間，第一階段、第二階段，部落就一直很擔心，所以這個部分是一個兩方面怎麼共同去處理的問題，如果能夠先進行原住民部落的諮商同意，畢竟不是沒有這種案例喔！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我就講交通部的蘇花安，蘇花公路有三段要改，它的名稱叫蘇花安，蘇花改都已經完成了，另外的是蘇花安。在最後一次的環評大會之前，所有部落的諮商同意都已經完成了，所以這個部分其實是可以這樣去進行的，部長你認同嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我非常認同，因為任何的開發單位一定要跟當地的住民，例如原住民做好細部的溝通，他們送環評到我們那邊審核，才有機會比較容易過關，因為任何的單位其實都可以來旁聽，也可以來發言，這是環評的制度，所以我們都有考慮到這個系統。例如臺東這陣子說要蓋陸域風機，其實我相信當地的原住民就感受到這樣的東西，我們也聽到了、也看到了，所以我們也表態了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，有關你提到東海岸風電的部分，確實以這樣密密麻麻的25個，還不包含大武、達仁的海岸，那個如果包含的話就更多，整個東海岸都是這樣。所以這個部分，第一個，鄉公所反對，長濱鄉公所已經表達反對；成功鎮公所表達反對；當地的人民表達反對；臺東縣政府也表達反對，所以最近你們都被質詢，除了你被質詢之外，還有經濟部，經濟部長直接就說，如果地方政府反對，他們就不同意。這樣還要不要進行？經濟部及環境部要讓這個業者知道，尤其是經濟部長親口在立法院說的，臺東縣政府反對他就不同意。這樣還要不要進行？不要浪費相關的資源。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，任何的開發如果在地的居民有很嚴重的反對，其實要過的機會不高，環評委員都會綜觀所有的意見，我們最近看到很多陸域風機的案例，都是附近民眾反對、地方反對沒有辦法過的，所以這個是最重要的，要聽民意是最重要的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，所以我的意思是相關的這些意見也請給他們，因為法也沒有明定啦！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以就請環境部處理，因為目前這個案子是你們在公告嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對，還沒有送進來，完全沒有送進來，是開發單位自己在準備當中。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對、對、對，所以你們要把這些意見給他們，因為我們相關的這些意見並沒有管道給他們嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以你們可以給他們。"],["彭部長啓明：好，現在因為有大量、幾千則的意見在環境部的公開網站留言，所以我們都會給那個開發單位，他們會知道、會處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，但是那裡沒有的，就是在立法院經濟部長親自回應，地方政府不同意他就不會准，那個也要讓他們知道。"],["彭部長啓明：是，我相信他們比我們更清楚，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員發言。接下來請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","張啓楷","楊曜","陳瑩","蘇清泉","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":427,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、外交部就「因應美國退出巴黎氣候協定並提出對等關稅，對國內\n產業淨零轉型造成衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、勞動部、教育部、經\n濟部針對「國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物管理及防制精進作為」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}