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你知道你們屬於跟你們勞動部給這個勞檢員訂的那個一年的KPI是多少跟委員報告 我們這個KPI基本上是因為我們是補助地方政府去聘用勞動條件檢查員所以就會有所謂的工作量所以大概我們現在一年的工作量勞檢的話是200場次"},{"start":214.212,"end":225.137,"text":"你這樣賣頂到先我拐這個等一下我會進一步跟你講這個連監察院都提出檢討報告要你們改你到現在沒有改一天你上班公務員一天上班幾天扣掉休假日結果你平均一年的KPI你現在要檢查200件這怎麼做得來呢這幾乎天天都在勞檢對不對"},{"start":243.732,"end":268.636,"text":"這太高了啦我來給你看現在地方政府反應是兩個你訂了這個勞檢勞檢員這個KPI這麼高勞檢員就是去檢查人家有沒有問題的啊結果你本身又過勞這不是很碰刺嗎這是第一個點那現在老實講現在因為我們人口在減少嘛很多地方又是用那個遠距的有沒有你很多地方應該可以做一個修正了那另外"},{"start":270.294,"end":292.889,"text":"我是很希望你們趕快去檢討這個KPI要怎麼講我給你看一個齁這不是只有地方的這個政府在反應監察院啊來你看一下我給你看監察院的調查監察院的調查啊他說每一個案子啊每一個案子你要去檢查你要做什麼事情第一個你要先看他的出勤的紀錄比對薪資的這個情緒這個第一"},{"start":295.612,"end":308.101,"text":"第二你還要跟僱主說明相關的這個法規第三你要撰寫檢討的這個檢討報告的這個通知第四你可能要開裁處書至少要長達一個月以上一個案子出去勞檢平均起來差不多二十點鐘這個你比較清楚嘛對不對你訂兩百一個案子出去二十個小時監察已經調查了叫你們改"},{"start":323.907,"end":325.983,"text":"所以你下禮拜上陣以後"},{"start":326.997,"end":352.187,"text":"列地要認趕快把它做一個檢討做一個處理好不好謝謝委員關心這個我們第一線勞動檢查員的辛勞確實那這個部分我們其實持續在做一些不管是在工具面或是說剛剛講的廠市面怎麼去換算因為並不一定說每一位這個200廠市一定是勞檢有時候我們在做一些仿試的話也會把它記為工作量這個我們就陸續在做一些優化跟精進謝謝委員關心"},{"start":354.268,"end":377.283,"text":"監察院調查完之後他是有明確要你做一些改正的啦他明明確確的你看以後你單列的這個時數啊你會增加的工作量太大嘛所以他有時候你看一個月的那個工作時間加班數超過50點鐘超過50個小時甚至各個機關加班費有時候規定只能給20那你就違規啊對不對"},{"start":380.663,"end":400.056,"text":"你這個強人所難啊 你導致你的這個你自己的勞工 自己的員工過勞嘛 然後又違反規定嘛欸 勞動部去年底那個霸凌案啊引起很大的仙人大波 到現在都還沒有完全解決勞動不是很多人工作時間是過場的"},{"start":402.725,"end":425.195,"text":"不是只有勞檢員要整體去檢討特別去年這個事情一定要引以為戒不要霸凌自己的員工好不好不要讓他們工作時間太長後來檢察官不是也進去調你們所有加班的時數嗎打卡的對不對這事情到現在還在查啊勞檢員你在地方你又害得他們不只是工作時間這麼長連加班時數都明定啦你就20個小時結果你給了50個小時這就違規了嘛"},{"start":428.596,"end":452.676,"text":"所以那時候監察院明確要求你們說你要嘛用什麼方式減少他們這個工作量這樣他可以做得更好啊不然你就增加人力嘛對不對另外一個他提那你對於他們的這個對於他們這個加班的這個方式啊你要有一個核實的一個專案加班最重要的就是這個事情嘛到現在都沒做啊來我具體來我現在今天具體的做三個要求好第一個"},{"start":456.84,"end":459.467,"text":"我請你中央啊 要去了解整個地方勞檢的這個狀況"},{"start":462.14,"end":486.383,"text":"你長久都在做這個事情嘛跟著副署長接著署長以後更要做你現在要很完整的深刻的去了解地方整個勞檢這個狀況然後作為你過去編預算的這個參考為什麼要這樣做因為每年預算都在滾動嘛對不對都在滾動嘛然後請勞動部你統計出來今年十月底跟去年一整年的"},{"start":487.404,"end":515.58,"text":"整個那個腦檢的那個狀況跟那個件數好不好好你這個提出來這個一個禮拜給我可以嗎你是不是再給我們一段時間一個禮拜上任那一個月啦好 謝謝一個月給我一個月給我這個資料這個就是OK然後第二個請你趕快提出一個具體的一個改善方案就是說這個KPI真的一年200件真的太多了去檢討一下甚至很多人都建議啊降到150 100多都合理啦"},{"start":516.981,"end":536.743,"text":"檢討一下這個要你在這個一個月內好不好檢討完以後給我一個報告不要再造成那個地方的這些工作人員真的是太辛苦了第三個請你們要提出新的工作分配改善方式包括你這個補助型計畫業務越來越偏低然後你要求地方這個勞檢員做了一堆那個他們現在不是只有勞檢的問題"},{"start":538.103,"end":559.828,"text":"你看他們還碰到一堆什麼不是勞檢類型的分類工作你還在那邊辦什麼說明會整堆的你整個都要納進去好不好整體做一個盤整好不好本席今天非常具體的三個要求那恭喜你下禮拜上任請把他列為第一要任好不好那一個月內給我一個檢討的這個方針跟改變跟改善好不好好謝謝好謝謝張祺可"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":956,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時41分）請彭部長，還有勞動部職業安全衛生署林毓堂副署長。"],["主席：請部長、副署長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，很高興剛才聽到你說臺東那個美麗的海岸線不會被破壞，生態環境優先嘛！我剛才聽到一句話，我覺得要肯定，你說如果當地的居民強烈反對的，要傾聽民意、要重視，就不會成嘛！所以我今天一方面肯定臺東這個美麗的海岸沒有被破壞，不只環境部部長已經明確講了，經濟部部長也說他不會允許這個開發，我們今天應該幾乎可以公布了，跟臺東的民眾、跟全臺灣民眾講，臺東海岸線陸上風機成的機率應該是很低的，這是一個好消息。","第二個，我更要進一步問，你剛才講說要傾聽民意，我上次問你基隆四接，我也希望你多傾聽那邊的民意，多去注意那邊，一方面是生態跟它的環境，如果它有污染，那天我們有共識了，儘快去改善，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們3月26號已經派人去查了，我們依據揭弊者保護法組成一個團隊，我希望大概月底或是5月初有一個報告再給委員參考。"],["張委員啓楷：已經去查了？"],["彭部長啓明：已經去查了，已經率隊去台電裡面查了。"],["張委員啓楷：你說什麼時候？"],["彭部長啓明：現在要等一段時間，因為我們已經要求台電提供相關的資料了，如果它有隱匿的話，目前我知道檢調也已經在查了，所以如果檢調有跟我們要資料，我們會提供給檢調，如果我們有結果也會再跟委員報告。"],["張委員啓楷：好，第一，儘快啦！第二，絕對不允許污染那個地方，更重要的是不要讓污染造成當地民眾的傷害，因為戴奧辛是致癌物質，一定要做到。","第二個，當地居民為什麼那麼反對四接？不是不能討論喔！是他們反映很多意見，例如現在臺灣的郵輪都是從基隆港進來，現在放四接的天然氣儲存槽在那邊會不會影響到他們？其實大家都知道，以前臺灣每次發生戰爭都是從基隆港登陸，所以當地民眾有些聲音，你剛剛提的很好，傾聽民意，這個我們共同努力。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：接著請林副署長。副署長，恭喜！聽說你下禮拜就要升任署長了，先恭喜你啦！"],["林副署長毓堂：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：不過任重道遠，我先問一個很重要的事情，很多地方政府都在埋怨一件事，這可能也是你上任後應該要馬上解決的，勞檢員從2016年開始就在哀怨說快過勞了，結果到現在為止勞動部還在說他們要做一些改善，要推動支持草案、做一些久任的獎金留才。它的根本問題出在這個地方，副署長，你知道你們署裡跟勞動部幫勞檢員定的一年的KPI是多少嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：跟委員報告，我們這個KPI基本上因為我們是補助地方政府去聘用勞動條件檢查員，所以就會有所謂的工作量，我們現在勞檢一年的工作量大概是200場次。"],["張委員啓楷：不會定得太高嗎？這個等一下我會進一步跟你講，連監察院都提出檢討報告要你們改，你們到現在都沒有改。公務員扣掉休假日一年上班幾天？結果你們平均一年的KPI叫他要檢查200件耶！這怎麼做得來呢？這樣幾乎天天都在勞檢耶！對不對？這太高了啦！","現在地方政府的反映有兩個，你把勞檢員的KPI定這麼高，勞檢員就是去檢查人家有沒有問題的，結果他本身就過勞，這不是很諷刺嗎？這是第一點。老實講，現在因為我們人口在減少，很多地方又是用遠距的，所以很多地方應該可以做一個修正。另外，我是很希望你們趕快去檢討這個KPI要怎麼降低，這不是只有地方的政府在反映，我給你看監察院的調查，監察委員說，每一個案子去檢查時要做什麼事情？第一個，你要先看他的出勤紀錄比對薪資的清冊；第二個，你要跟雇主說明相關的法規；第三個，你要撰寫檢查的檢查結果通知；第四個，你可能還要開裁處書，至少要長達一個月以上，出去勞檢一個案子需要的時間平均起來差不多是20個小時。這個你比我清楚，你的KPI定在200，出去勞檢一個案子要20個小時，監察院已經調查了，叫你們改，所以你下禮拜上任以後列為第一要任，趕快把它做一個檢討、做一個處理，好不好？"],["林副署長毓堂：謝謝委員關心我們第一線勞動檢查員的辛勞，確實，這個部分我們其實持續在做一些，不管是在工具面或是剛剛講的場次面怎麼去換算，因為並不一定這200場次一定是勞檢，有時候做一些訪視也會把它記為工作量，這個我們已經陸陸續續在做一些優化跟精進，謝謝委員關心。"],["張委員啓楷：監察院調查完之後，它是有明確要你做一些改正，你看，它說因為增加的工作量太大，所以有時候一個月的加班時數超過50個小時，甚至各個機關的加班費有時候規定只能給20小時，那你就違規啊！你是強人所難啊！導致你自己的員工過勞，又違反規定。勞動部去年底的那個霸凌案引起軒然大波，到現在都還沒有完全解決，勞動部很多人的工作時間是過長的，不是只有勞檢員，要整體去檢討，特別是去年這個事情一定要引以為戒，不要霸凌自己的員工、不要讓他們工作時間太長，好不好？後來檢察官不是也進去調你們所有加班、打卡的時數嗎？這個事情到現在還在查，在地方你又害得勞檢員不只是工作時間這麼長，連加班時數明定是20個小時，結果他加班50個小時，這都違規了嘛！那時候監察院明確要求你們要用什麼方式減少他們的工作量，讓他可以做得更好，不然你就增加人力，對不對？另外，對於他們的加班你要有一個覈實的專案加班，最主要是做這三樣事情，到現在都沒做。","我今天具體做三個要求，第一個，請中央要去了解整個地方勞檢的狀況，副署長，你長久都在做這個事情，接了署長以後更要做。"],["林副署長毓堂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你現在要很完整的、深刻的去了解地方整個勞檢的狀況，作為後續編預算的參考。為什麼要這樣做？因為每年預算都在滾動，請勞動部統計出來今年至10月底跟去年一整年整個勞檢的狀況跟件數，好不好？"],["林副署長毓堂：好。"],["張委員啓楷：請把這個提出來，一個禮拜給我可以嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：委員，是不是再給我們一段時間？"],["張委員啓楷：那就一個月啦！"],["林副署長毓堂：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：一個月給我這個資料。第二個，請你趕快提出一個具體的改善方案，這個KPI一年200件真的太多了，去檢討一下，甚至很多人都建議，降到一百五、一百多都合理啦！檢討一下，一樣檢討完後一個月內給我一個報告，不要再造成地方工作人員的負擔，真的是太辛苦了。第三個，請你們要提出新的工作分配改善方式，包括這個補助型計畫業務越來越偏低，然後你要求地方勞檢員做一堆，他們現在不是只有勞檢的問題，你看他們還碰到一堆不是勞檢類型的份內工作，你要叫他們去辦說明會什麼一大堆的，你整個都要納進去，整體做一個盤整，好不好？"],["林副署長毓堂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：本席今天提出非常具體的三個要求，恭喜你下禮拜上任，請把它列為第一要任，好不好？"],["林副署長毓堂：是，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：一個月內給我一個檢討的方針跟改善方案，好不好？"],["林副署長毓堂：是，沒問題。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員的發言。","徐欣瑩委員改書面質詢。","葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員。","王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員。","接下來請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-6","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","黃秀芳","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","張啓楷","楊曜","陳瑩","蘇清泉","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":427,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、外交部就「因應美國退出巴黎氣候協定並提出對等關稅，對國內\n產業淨零轉型造成衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、勞動部、教育部、經\n濟部針對「國內校園、賣場及工作場域之室內空氣污染物管理及防制精進作為」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}