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ﻷ三、邀請國防部報告國防部機密專案預算需求．並備質詢。 ﻷ國防部部長顧立雄、軍備局局長林文祥及空軍司令部參謀長曹建平報告、委員王帝宇等18人質詢。 ﻷ均由國防部部長顧立雄、政治作戰局局長陳玉琳、軍備局局長林文祥、"},{"start":1826.081,"end":1852.232,"text":"空軍司令部參謀長曹敬平及國家中山科學研究院院長張忠誠等即席答覆,決定一、登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢,報告及審查結束。二、委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊,請國防部於二周年以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員令指定期限者從其所定。三、委員林毅君所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報宣錄完畢。"},{"start":1860.543,"end":1861.333,"text":"二、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":1862.225,"end":1891.652,"text":"稍後再確認議事錄。現在請議事人員宣讀報告及討論事項。報告事項二,邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告漢光四十號演習規劃情形．並備質詢。討論事項,審查一本院委員馬文君等21人擬具國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。二、本院委員黃仁等24人擬具國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":1892.052,"end":1917.507,"text":"三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等25人擬具《國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案案》案。 bicy、本院委員賴世寶等21人擬具《國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案案》案。五、本院臺灣民眾黨黨團擬具《國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案案》案。六、本院委員羅志強等24人擬具《國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案案》案。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1923.22,"end":1949.994,"text":"我們先確認議事錄請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有那我們議事錄確定接下來我們法案審查的部分如有委員要提修正動議請於10點30分之前送交議事人員我們現在先介紹在場的委員還有列席官員首先介紹陳永康委員"},{"start":1952.595,"end":1965.662,"text":"賴士寶委員黃仁委員還有我們國防部部長顧立雄顧部長梅家樹參謀總長楊基榮常務次長"},{"start":1981.36,"end":2004.276,"text":"全民防衛動員署白結榮白署長總督察長市李榮華總督察長政務辦公室廖建新主任政治作戰局陳玉琳局長軍備局林文祥林局長主計局謝祺賢謝局長"},{"start":2009.039,"end":2036.01,"text":"軍醫局醫務管理處楊仲祺楊處長戰略規劃司李士強李司長資源規劃司鄧克雄鄧司長法律事務司沈世維沈司長整合評估司苗慧芬苗司長國防採購事趙雅萍主任"},{"start":2038.43,"end":2048.014,"text":"人事參謀次長是劉佩智次長行報參謀次長是顏有賢顏次長作戰及計劃參謀次長是陳文新陳次長後勤參謀次長是陳毅智陳次長通信電子資訊參謀次長是盧建宗盧次長"},{"start":2068.496,"end":2077.144,"text":"訓練參謀次長是張俊智張次長陸軍司令部陳建義參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮參謀長空軍司令部曹敬平參謀長後備指揮部薛淵權參謀長憲兵指揮部呂正芳參謀長"},{"start":2097.363,"end":2115.128,"text":"陸軍後勤指揮部、劉清勳參謀長自通電軍副指揮官王月陽王副指揮官軍事情報局第一處鄧敦仁鄧處長電訊發展室許益新執行長國家中山科學研究院張忠誠張院長"},{"start":2125.543,"end":2137.988,"text":"國安局黃明昭、黃副局長法務部法治司、調部辦事謝佑雲檢察官討論事項審查國軍老舊眷村改建條例"},{"start":2152.22,"end":2161.233,"text":"條文修正草案共有6個提案版本我們現在請提案委員做提案說明發言時間3分鐘首先請賴士寶委員"},{"start":2170.633,"end":2188.71,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進那麼本席跟馬文君主席共同提案其實是他要來提不過因為我的是第四案他第一案他當主席所以我就來代打我想今天針對這個"},{"start":2192.043,"end":2207.891,"text":"國軍老舊眷村改建條例其他的委員都是提第三條的修正案馬文君跟我是共同提案包括第五條跟第五條之一其實主要要解決的就是這個國安局跟國安會"},{"start":2209.272,"end":2236.375,"text":"他們這些的軍事人員就目前在國軍的眷村改建條例裡面是被也被排除的這對他們非常的不公平而我擔任立委這段時間國安會的長官國安局的長官都有來跟我講他們是大力支持的到目前為止其實這個國軍這一部分還有六"},{"start":2237.796,"end":2260.332,"text":"有八個村吧,是吧?有八個村。那麼在國安會裡面有六個村,六個村還沒完成的改建。原來國安會、國安局他們是要自己改建,所以才有今天的漏網之魚。現在確定了,國安會、國安局不改建了,所以理論上應該就會到這國軍"},{"start":2261.853,"end":2279.971,"text":"老舊眷村改建條例裡面所以第三條這個裡面很清楚的就是說為什麼一樣是國軍陸海空一樣陸軍官校畢業一樣軍校畢業那麼分到陸海空各單位我就有眷改條例"},{"start":2281.482,"end":2281.982,"text":"三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":2311.882,"end":2335.51,"text":"我跟馬文君委員還有第五條及第五條之一規範的也是這樣的概念,就是把國安會、國安局規範得更細膩。我知道這個案子在國安會都同意,國安局也願意幫忙,但是國安部一直不同意。您現在請我們的顧部長來說明一下,"},{"start":2338.231,"end":2341.673,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":2359.481,"end":2384.222,"text":"最有資格來幫他們講話你當過國安委的秘書長現在當國防部長我們這個主要的職權單位在國防部我們希望國防部能夠藉這個機會能夠讓這些人能夠得到他應有的權益以上的一個說明之意思向各位簡單的報告請各位指教也請各位支持謝謝"},{"start":2390.908,"end":2402.43,"text":"現在請國防部顧立雄部長分別就漢光四十號演習規劃情形以及有關國軍老舊眷村改建條例的修正草案進行報告和說明主席各位委員先進面對區域安全情勢變化中共軍力擴張及持續對我軍事威懾"},{"start":2421.421,"end":2437.138,"text":"員進挑戰,國軍持續推動各項艦軍備戰工作與確保國家安全。今天應邀致大院委員會實施專案報告,將針對漢光四十號演習規劃進行報告,其實各位委員能夠了解國軍透過遠訓執行實戰化訓練的能力。"},{"start":2441.762,"end":2455.622,"text":"並支持各項國防事務推動。令大院各位委員提案修正建改條例六案,請各位委員考量歷年建改條例之一致性及公平性,並兼顧對眷戶照顧之立場周延。"},{"start":2460.253,"end":2479.309,"text":"法規內容被立言,建改工作能夠順利執行。接續由本部參謀總長梅家樹上將及政治案局局長陳毓林中將就漢光四十號演習規劃情形及國軍老舊眷村改建條例修正草案等兩項專題向各位委員報告。謝謝。"},{"start":2491.315,"end":2513.865,"text":"漢光四十號演習的規劃情形報告主席、各位委員新晉、大家早安今天本人非常榮幸能夠應委員會的邀請到大院來實施專案報告承蒙各位委員的長期的支持與鼓勵使國軍在建軍備戰上面有非常多的"},{"start":2515.049,"end":2543.646,"text":"注意,現在就漢光四十號演習的目的、構想、規劃、督考的編組與預期的成效、栽種的實施說明,敬請各位委員指導。首先報告演習的目的,面對共軍日益升高對我的軍事的威脅,敵可能的行動以及作戰思維必須迅速的調整。國軍防衛作戰計畫也必須持續的精進及修調。"},{"start":2545.373,"end":2553.385,"text":"本部藉由漢光演習來驗證聯合作戰計劃的適切性以及可行性以適應防衛作戰的需求"},{"start":2554.625,"end":2569.278,"text":"接續報告演習的構想依照共軍犯台的可能行動及參著歷年演習檢討與建議本部具以發展演習的想定並依照三軍的兵力的現況藉連續性的狀況發布以誘導各部隊按照聯合作戰計畫實施演練"},{"start":2577.25,"end":2593.88,"text":"今年的漢光演習總共區分三個階段在3月份的時候我們實施了高階幹部的土上兵推4月份執行的電腦輔助指揮所演習以及即將在7月下旬實施的實兵演練這三個階段來實施"},{"start":2596.261,"end":2616.374,"text":"並且將童心、自強、萬安及民安演習等科目均納入規劃至重點於戰力保存、整體防空、聯合階級、國土防衛作戰及民務力動員與全民總力的運用等。接續報告演習的規劃在高階幹部圖上兵棋推演"},{"start":2617.628,"end":2646.574,"text":"此目的是為了貫徹防衛作戰的指導由參謀總長召集三軍重要高階幹部實施圖上兵棋推演藉互動的研討與集思廣益達成作戰的共識使各作戰部隊能夠了解聯合作戰指揮官的作戰決心與戰略指導這個推演總共執行了兩週第一週是實施國防部高階幹部的圖上兵棋推演"},{"start":2648.134,"end":2676.16,"text":"由參謀總長指導說明防衛作戰的理念,使作戰層級的指揮官能夠了解國防部的作戰企圖、構想與所望的戰果。第二週則執行作戰層級圖上兵棋推演,係參據第一週的研討結果,針對單位首付的任務,完成作戰的指導,並明確立定各部隊的執行內容。第二階段我們執行電腦輔助指揮所演練,"},{"start":2678.655,"end":2703.821,"text":"是以合理的想定、序列及戰材、趨近敵我軍戰力及戰術戰法的實況誘導防衛軍演練以磨練各級指揮官用兵的決策、參謀判斷與計劃作為的能力並檢視聯合作戰計劃的適切性此操演是由部長任統裁官、國防大學的校長任副統裁官參謀總長任防衛軍的指揮官"},{"start":2706.221,"end":2726.152,"text":"我們是利用聯合戰區層級模擬系統規劃了八天七夜的對抗操演以強化國軍灰色地帶的應處、加強戒備、平戰轉換、應急以全面作戰等防衛作戰程序與行動。我們即將在七月要規劃的是實兵的演練"},{"start":2727.574,"end":2752.443,"text":"在歷年演習所奠定的基礎下及趨近實戰化的要求下分別由戰役、作戰及戰術等層級設計仿真的戰場想定及輔助狀況以誘導官兵操演、驗證聯合作戰計畫的可行性及各級部隊執行計畫之能力是由參謀總長任統裁官、三軍司令任副統裁官"},{"start":2753.561,"end":2779.264,"text":"我們強調以實兵、實地、實時並規劃部分海空的兵力實施對抗的草案並致重點於軍種的聯合作戰及業戰等以遂行、戰力保存、整體防空、聯合截擊及聯合國土防衛作戰等連續五天四夜的草案。草案科目的重點具有下列幾項。第一個,整體防空的效能"},{"start":2781.076,"end":2796.141,"text":"統合運用三軍部隊防空的兵火力、演練近中遠程整體的防護網並運用戰機增強聯合防空的效能與本島執行防空作戰的任務第二點聯合階級及反封鎖能力"},{"start":2798.03,"end":2815.379,"text":"審核海上空中的兵力、安置火力與海巡等與本島海空域遂行反封鎖護航任務以維持重要聯外海空的交通暢通並建立海上的擊殺鏈執行兵海打擊作戰的實兵演練。"},{"start":2816.516,"end":2836.702,"text":"第三點,國土防衛作戰,各作戰區指導海岸巡、特戰及地面部隊等遂行禁岸的防禦、反掃雷破障、反登陸、反空機降作戰、關鍵基礎設施防護與城鄉守備等實兵的演練。最後一項是全民防衛動員的能量。"},{"start":2837.799,"end":2863.419,"text":"此次整合了同心34號、自強40號、民安10號及萬安47號的演習運用地方的警消及民防團體與組織執行後備部隊的動員、民務力的徵用、戰災搶救防空疏散及災民收容等以發揮軍民整合及城鄉守護的效能。繼續報告督考的一個編組"},{"start":2864.946,"end":2883.26,"text":"這一次由國防部的總督長室及各軍總司令部那邊所屬的參謀負責演習期間的督考的事宜檢視三軍各級的部隊是否確依敵情的威脅將聯合作戰計畫融入想定及輔助的狀況誘導責任區內的三軍部隊執行訓練落實達成實戰化訓練的要求目標。預期的成效"},{"start":2892.042,"end":2900.585,"text":"第一點,藉高階幹部的圖上兵棋推演,檢視國軍113年聯合作戰計畫的適切性與連貫性,並共同研討創新的思維,提出戰術戰法、策進建議。第二點,將電腦輔助指揮所演練所獲得參數與結論,據修訂聯合作戰指導與行動方案,並作為後續戰力的整建、兵力結構的調整等建軍備戰規劃的方向。"},{"start":2921.906,"end":2938.32,"text":"第三點,藉時兵的演練,讓官兵熟悉戰場的環境,瞭解作戰的任務及指揮與戰鬥程序,同時磨練各指揮官任務式指揮與授權的機制,縮短決策的程序,爭取戰場主動優勢。"},{"start":2940.475,"end":2959.046,"text":"第四點,我們會中整演習重大的戰備議題及部隊操演的檢討,納入國軍明年即114年聯合作戰計畫的修訂,漢光四十一號演習的驗證重點以及未來建軍發展的規劃,持續提升防衛作戰的能力與韌性。"},{"start":2960.936,"end":2981.702,"text":"最後本次漢光演習本部秉持的是誠實的軍風坦誠面對問題確實深入檢討國軍部隊的訓練成效並提出具體可行的解決方案並達成高戰備的目標建立堅實可視的戰力確保國家安全報告完畢進行指教"},{"start":2994.639,"end":3017.895,"text":"主席、各位委員先進今天大院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會召開第29次全體委員會議並按審查馬文君委員等21人擬具《國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案》等6案"},{"start":3019.136,"end":3041.271,"text":"感謝各位委員對於國防部推動老舊眷村改建工作的關心與指導。那麼針對委員的提案內容說明如下。一、委員提案內容第三條部分,王鴻薇委員等22人及羅志強委員等24人提案修正第一項。"},{"start":3043.21,"end":3062.997,"text":"將老舊眷村定義、修正為本條例公佈施行前、興建完成且有改建必要之軍眷住宅。厲世保委員等21人、馬文君委員等21人及黃仁委員等24人提案,修正第一項。"},{"start":3064.237,"end":3071.82,"text":"將老舊眷村定義、修正為有改建必要之軍眷住宅。令王鴻薇委員等22人、賴世保委員等21人、馬文君委員等21人、黃仁委員等24人及臺灣民眾黨黨團提案修正第二項。"},{"start":3084.665,"end":3086.167,"text":"將國家安全會議及國家安全局納入核發國軍眷舍居住憑證或公文書的全責單位。"},{"start":3097.196,"end":3120.988,"text":"第五條部分,馬文君委員等21人提案,配合第五條之一令定國安會及國安局列管原眷戶的權益,於第一項增列除書規定,並將第二項及第三項著作文字的修正為本條例九十年五月三十日修正施行前。"},{"start":3122.128,"end":3139.558,"text":"第五條之一的部分馬文君委員等21人提案增訂本條規定國安會及國安局列管援軍戶享有之權益以輔助購載款為限並明定其權益承受的方式及時限。二、國防部意見"},{"start":3144.412,"end":3168.065,"text":"為解決國安會及國安局列管眷村納入改建問題本部前擬具了《國軍老舊眷村改建條例修正草案》於110年10月21日呈報行政院為本案仍有下列上代克服的諸因素分數如後一、眷改基金財務短處"},{"start":3169.966,"end":3188.999,"text":"常在困難,眷村改建《西醫本條例》第八條及第九條規定編列特別預算以國軍老舊眷村的土地及國軍不適用營地處分作為經費來源並設置眷改基金執行改建工作,期間完成52處改建基地"},{"start":3191.34,"end":3207.33,"text":"由於補貼、輔助購宅差額款及舊有捐赦處理費等至捐改基金累積短處1055億餘元令現金部分因申借不適用營地周轉金725億餘元"},{"start":3209.992,"end":3229.857,"text":"自110年起陸續歸店186億元為仍有539億餘元欠款上代繳還國庫,故現階段仍以活化收益還款為首要工作。二、無法再興建住宅社區與眷戶期待不符。"},{"start":3230.819,"end":3252.171,"text":"一、行政院101年合證修訂國軍老舊眷村改建計劃案的政策決定,國防部及其所屬機關不再興建即合適的住宅。加以近年來社會快速發展,繫增眷村改建規劃圈以無法盤點適合地點興建住宅社區,原眷戶僅可領取輔助購宅款、購置成屋。"},{"start":3258.795,"end":3270.98,"text":"以現行市場的價格,眷戶所領取之輔助購宅款是將難以購置鄰近區位相同平行的市場城屋,不符眷戶的期待。"},{"start":3271.983,"end":3295.682,"text":"三、眷戶意見分歧,契未能完成整合。上開眷村未爭取權益,眷村自治會多年來持續地向多方爭取、說明。同時,透過國安會以及國安局的溝通努力,目前確實已有部分的住戶認同已修法的方式解決眷村住戶權益問題。"},{"start":3298.143,"end":3304.848,"text":"為認同修法住戶中多數傾向期待國防部能夠提供住宅供其承購。還有部分住戶強烈反對修法並自主自救會持續進行陳情。"},{"start":3315.035,"end":3336.602,"text":"顯見現況住戶意見仍屬分歧本次修法僅能以領取輔助購載款來安置在仍有為數不少不同意見的情形下透過修法是否能夠解決問題抑或反而導致不同意見住戶採行其他陳抗手段仍存疑議"},{"start":3337.426,"end":3344.429,"text":"三、節語。國防部始終秉持照顧軍眷的立場更理解委員提案照顧眷戶的美意為本案卻有上述的困難軍代克服解決以由列管機關持續的溝通、獲取共識以謀取最適的解決方案較為合一仍請各位委員考量國家整體財政運用以及政府住宅政策調整"},{"start":3367.18,"end":3368.801,"text":"並且兼顧照顧眷戶立場,就全案通盤審慎的評估。以上報告,敬請各位委員先進參考指教。謝謝。"},{"start":3385.653,"end":3402.605,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘、非本會委員6分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右視詢答情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢羅美玲委員上台質詢羅美玲委員上台質詢羅美玲委員上台質詢羅美玲委員上台質詢羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":3419.491,"end":3438.846,"text":"羅委員好部長好,部長,截到今年的4月份為止,我國大約有150萬名的這個後備軍人,相當於全國總人口的這個6.4%那這個國外有一個知名的軍事網站,它有公布2023年的軍事實力排行"},{"start":3439.386,"end":3450.509,"text":"我國在145國裡面綜合排名是第23可是我們的後備軍人數是全球排名第一可是我國的後備軍人從訓練、裝備跟編制等等長期以來其實都受到軍事專家的詬病"},{"start":3458.311,"end":3463.176,"text":"所以國防部才在2021年的時候推動這個全動數的這個改組而且呢在2022年的時候後備軍人叫招的這個訓練呢我們有更新了這個計畫到目前為止呢我們已經試辦了兩年然後在明年會正式來上路"},{"start":3476.688,"end":3497.969,"text":"我記得之前我有看到一份報導也就是在這個新制剛開始的時候那時候被認為是有史以來最硬的這個教召那教召第一批的這個教召員曾經受過一些媒體的這個訪問那我列出幾個例子可能要待會可能要麻煩國防部長來回答一下"},{"start":3500.692,"end":3500.812,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":3520.826,"end":3533.118,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":3545.449,"end":3563.924,"text":"這是新制的時候這是第一批的時候有一位教召員B他就說他那時候是擔任船令兵作為來講他是要練習背上這個所謂拐拐無限奠基可是他在教召訓練14天裡面一次都沒有背過"},{"start":3564.645,"end":3588.541,"text":"那有個教召員C呢他說他在教召編輯裡面他是被分配為營級的這個情報士官工作應該是幫助長官收集各種地方情報協助指揮判斷戰況可是他跟其他的教召員一樣只接受步槍兵的訓練沒有人協助他複習情報士官、情搜相關專業的訓練"},{"start":3590.302,"end":3615.873,"text":"所以是不是說這是在這個新制DP的這個教召員他們所提出來的這些意見那兩年過去了事辦了兩年對於這些剛剛我所提到的ABC教召員所提到這個問題我們有在做改進嗎?看起來我們的訓練內容是非常的不矜持跟委員報告、委員指教的我認為我也有"},{"start":3618.03,"end":3638.302,"text":"相當的認同就是說我們後備軍人的這個訓練因為從我們過去我們今年才開始實施一年期的EVE的從4個月才開到一年期的EVE那後備軍人的這個訓練的這個部分如何讓他訓練能夠扎實然後能夠"},{"start":3641.573,"end":3654.027,"text":"有效的形成站立,這個部分是我們的一個非常重大的一個挑戰。那不但只是訓練部分,那還有裝備等等。那現在我想我們會從基層幹部來"},{"start":3659.502,"end":3687.674,"text":"就是說他有一個後備戰略形成他要有一定人數的基層幹部那這個基層幹部的這個能力呢要把他變成是一個志願役然後他來帶領這些役這些過去的軍事訓練役的這個人那這樣子才能夠形成一個有效的戰力那所以從基層幹部能力的補時這一點就開始要做起那訓練的這一個部分呢確實我想從一開始"},{"start":3689.315,"end":3705.641,"text":"展開這個新式的教召確實還是有一些問題存在,但是我們不斷地去改進這個新式教召的這個內容,那將這個新式教召的內容把它從這個也就是說讓它"},{"start":3706.781,"end":3725.299,"text":"不管是在實彈的這個射擊上面,還有各種的這個核武實彈化訓練要求的射擊的姿勢、姿態,然後戰鬥的這個射擊方式,那一直到這個野外來輸贏等等,我們現在不斷地在加強,所以"},{"start":3726.36,"end":3739.411,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":3748.398,"end":3759.003,"text":"候備軍人的裝備也列為優先建軍內容項目之一。希望透過這三個部分,我們希望能夠"},{"start":3761.586,"end":3786.727,"text":"來形成一個有戰鬥力的一個後備的部隊。這是我們現在光復屬於一個重要的政策項目。是。部長剛才你提到這個裝備。不單裝備還有武器。像過去我們在叫招的時候我們是單位之間互相借用這個武器跟裝備。也就是說我們後備單位是沒有自己的武器跟裝備。這情況有改善嗎?請問。"},{"start":3789.064,"end":3815.498,"text":"裝備現代的籌貨列為我們現在這個近來5年建軍的這個重要的項目之一,我們把它都優序把它往前排。那將後備的這個裝備,當然包括您講的武器這個部分,要把它列入這個優先籌貨。所以到目前為止的話,這部分還是在互相各單位互相在借用當中,所以還沒有完備嗎?是不是?部長的意思是這樣子,我們會未來會改進的意思嗎?"},{"start":3817.179,"end":3823.719,"text":"必須誠實地講就是說我們要快速地來加強那現在還有很多可以改進的空間"},{"start":3824.554,"end":3848.861,"text":"OK 好 謝謝部長所以我們現在就要找我們所採取的就是就地動員、就地編制、就地訓練、就地守備的這個方式那這部分我們當然是非常的這個肯定那當然我們動員署其中成立最主要有一個很重要的這個目標就是長後合一那我們有做到長後合一嗎我們的長輩軍人跟後輩軍人我們有曾經有過協同作戰的這個演習嗎有嗎請問"},{"start":3853.522,"end":3858.948,"text":"這是我們的目標之一,我們有做到嗎?就是在漢光的時候我們有納入,那平常訓練的時候、平常教招的時候是沒有的嗎?"},{"start":3866.072,"end":3886.88,"text":"平常叫召的時候剛剛您講的就是我們現在拉到那個縣地去那讓他去熟悉這戰場的環境然後讓他了解然後來進行他熟悉他的戰鬥位置那這樣子的方式來進行至少就叫召了14天是沒有辦法"},{"start":3887.6,"end":3899.646,"text":"就跟像漢光演習這樣子來進行,但我們就會到他的現地的位置,讓他去熟悉他應該要有的守備位置這樣子。"},{"start":3900.543,"end":3921.264,"text":"部長我有給給一個建議喔像新加坡其實新加坡跟台灣非常的這個類似他也有戰備軍人的這個回訊那之前我有看過這個韓剛明少將他有提到就是說雖然新加坡他一樣也是14天的這個他們叫回訊我們叫叫招他們叫回訊他們說這些叫招員呢"},{"start":3921.584,"end":3922.766,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":3935.687,"end":3959.954,"text":"跟委員報告新加坡這個部分我跟新加坡相關的人已經有談過好多次了他們最重要的就是說他們18歲當兵的時候他們把他形成一組的人力之後他們就會從中拔走那個幹部然後從中拔走幹部之後他們就這一組會用一個他們自己的一個比如說LINE或者是一個社群的平台來聯絡"},{"start":3961.114,"end":3977.679,"text":"那所以他們會隨時可以進行動員然後這一些小組的幹部就會通知這些人馬上去報導他有時候光報導但是不實施教召有時候報導以後把衣服穿好然後就回家有時候是報導以後再加實驗的訓練他用各種的方式來進行這樣的動員演練這確實是值得我們學習的地方"},{"start":3983.921,"end":4010.385,"text":"因為我有看過他相關的這個報導我是覺得確實部長您所講的他的新加坡經驗真的是很值得我們去學習像他也擔心馬來西亞他也擔心印尼他周邊也有很多的這個強國所以他們的全民的這方面的這個意識這防疫的意識是非常強的這國家意識也是非常的強而且他們這個在教招的時候不是單純就只有自己在"},{"start":4011.505,"end":4039.112,"text":"在做這個所謂訓練,就是教召員的訓練,他們可能還會結合民間。好像全國都有這樣子的一個想法,就是保家衛國的這個想法。我在想說這個部分,新加坡經驗很值得我們去了解跟學習。好,那時間到了以上,謝謝。是,謝謝,謝謝雯子。我們,因為新加坡它地方比較小啦,這一點,但是我們要學習它的這個方法論是應該的,是。"},{"start":4045.235,"end":4048.276,"text":"接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢。有請顧部長及梅總長。請顧部長還有梅總長。"},{"start":4072.523,"end":4093.318,"text":"今天發生了一個震驚全國的擔憂的一件事今天早上清晨的五點有四艘的中共海警我們的海警船艦再度的傳入我們金門境縣治水域"},{"start":4094.697,"end":4121.94,"text":"這個就是在之前我們淡水衝撞了我們的淡水海域然後今天又發生了這樣的一個狀況請問一下這一次的金門的這個金門府僅5海里只有5海里這是史上最近的一個海裡衝撞了我們的這個金門近線的水域"},{"start":4123.373,"end":4139.847,"text":"部長你待會表達一下今天中共步步的每一步都逼近了都有突破性的逼近到我們的海域我們要如何防範待會總長你也要回答一下請回答"},{"start":4141.025,"end":4161.862,"text":"跟委員報告中國的海警確實在金門的海域現在實施一個比較我們講說要建立一個否定競選是隨意的一個新常態的一個作為所以他確實是會每一天他會派遣這個海警船"},{"start":4162.142,"end":4164.423,"text":"委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":4182.171,"end":4183.972,"text":"國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4207.548,"end":4228.62,"text":"謝委員有關在國軍的部分其實就以外島我們是同島民命其實不管是國軍或者說是海巡其實大家都是在這樣子的一個態度上面相互的支援然後也把這些的情資去做分享所以其實在整個的應處上面"},{"start":4229.6,"end":4249.473,"text":"不管是海巡跟國軍的外島的指揮部其實都非常的綿密而且相互的會有實施備援好因為現在每一次都有突破性的步步的逼近在到我們的海域的進水域這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":4251.204,"end":4273.224,"text":"這不是一個平常在過去裡面所發生的可是今年會多次的會發生而且還會再發生你相不相信那我們國軍如何的去應對因應因為我們反觀一下目前中共在菲律賓的一個海這個南海發生的這個嚴重的衝突"},{"start":4275.266,"end":4293.772,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":4304.229,"end":4324.551,"text":"你要回答?跟委員報告,我想如果他現在因為不是軍用的艦艇進入了禁線式水域,如果由軍用的艦艇進入禁線式水域,我們就一定會負責來將這個越界進入禁線式水域來依照這個土豪商場組織規定來加以處理。"},{"start":4325.752,"end":4346.507,"text":"那現在這個是屬於海警的這個傳播,那這個有海軍來負責海域的執法。那我們互相會建立剛剛提到的我們支援的這個機制,然後互相通報,然後來協助監控跟來驅離這些廣播驅離來這些禁案的。"},{"start":4346.647,"end":4347.787,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":4365.874,"end":4379.725,"text":"四十號演習是一個非常特殊具有提振國軍的士氣。今天我們要講的為什麼在本島的漢光演習四十號的演習當中將不採取實彈"},{"start":4383.047,"end":4403.563,"text":"原因是什麼?那另外就是在這一次演習有許多變革,包含本島實兵不實彈加上外島實兵實彈,取消由總統親自視導的大型的火力展示項目,取消假想敵,去中心化執管。"},{"start":4404.644,"end":4415.593,"text":"強化夜間信念等並將疫情下達狀況實時實地驗證不經你已安全考量等因素,為何?"},{"start":4417.417,"end":4442.914,"text":"委員主一跟您做一個回覆委員剛才有特別提到的就是實彈的部分我們這一次在外島是有實彈的射擊在本島我們沒有安排實彈的射擊跟委員做一個說明的因為我們這一次就是讓我們的這些的聯兵旅單位他的一個戰術層級的單位他依照我們所給予的想定還有臨機的狀況他要經過判斷之後去行動"},{"start":4446.897,"end":4461.286,"text":"所以這個時機點他會到什麼的地點雖然我們是一個計畫的方式來去引動他但是可能在任何的時段如果我們下達在沒有去做這些的這個這個火炮安全管制的話"},{"start":4462.026,"end":4476.64,"text":"其實我們也不希望說他這樣子臨機的方式引起了相關的這些的一些的安全的事務所以我們在本島的規劃還是以他去熟悉他的作戰環境以及去熟悉他的聯合作戰計劃"},{"start":4478.542,"end":4494.841,"text":"然後因為我們聯合作戰計畫做了蠻多的一些調整所以我們今年的訓練目標是希望他們能夠熟忍他們的作戰計畫所以我們按照這樣子的規劃第二個剛委員也有提到去中心化的去中心化確實是我們今年的一個非常重要的一個訓練目標"},{"start":4496.323,"end":4518.496,"text":"去中心化大概有五個面向。第一個,各級的指揮官要非常清楚他的任務。第二個,我們要給這些指揮官充分的授權。第三個,我們要給他一個非常清楚的責任區。第四個,我們也要給他一個非常周延、詳盡的一個交戰規則。最後,他要有獨立作戰的能力。"},{"start":4519.156,"end":4540.271,"text":"所以我們去中心化是朝向這個方向。所以我們今年的訓練所有的規劃就是為了達到我們的訓練目標而設計的相關的漢光演習的一個實兵的一個訓練。現在很多國人產生一個質疑的原因就是每一次的漢光的演練的演習都會有實彈。"},{"start":4542.092,"end":4560.394,"text":"今天為什麼以不時但我作為你們現在的漢光四十演習的目的現在國人產生了質疑也產生對國家沒有信心所以這一點你必須要說明時但每一次的演習都是時但演練"},{"start":4561.335,"end":4576.681,"text":"這是一個我們漢光演習對整個具有特殊性的意義所以這個部分你再詳細的說明好不好跟委員做一個說明其實國軍在年度的訓練有分成不同的層級我們的實彈的相關的訓練其實並沒有荒廢"},{"start":4581.263,"end":4603.112,"text":"我們在每一個階段的射擊包括在屏東的我們的聯訓基地有實彈射擊我們年度也有安排相關的精準飛彈的射擊我們甚至現在把精準飛彈射擊都調整成為跟他的戰術位置能夠相結合包括海軍跟空軍其實我們一直不斷的在這些的作為上面去精進"},{"start":4604.452,"end":4628.726,"text":"所以今年我還是跟委員做報告的就是說今年我們的訓練目標其實漢光演習著重的第一個你要先設定你的訓練目標你今年的目標是什麼然後你這一次實兵的操演訓練的對象又是以戰術單位為主所以我們因為聯合作戰計畫因為敵情的威脅我們改變了非常多我們一定要讓他進入熟悉計畫因為實驗醫術"},{"start":4631.067,"end":4645.275,"text":"另外我要跟部長講一下我們美國向我們釋出彈丸刀無人機是不是有採購的必要性那目前來講的話我們本來中科院就已經研發對峙"},{"start":4646.896,"end":4673.405,"text":"跟我們這個美國所要售出的3.6億的美元、彈簧刀300型及Adduce 600MV及這個600型的兩款自殺式的攻擊無人機、國防、國防部是否有將要採購。那我們另外就是國防的兩型飛彈現況我們中科院國照就已經可以對峙跟這些"},{"start":4674.985,"end":4701.63,"text":"兩款的這一些美國的方式都有平衡型的一個對抗怎麼會還要再採購這個付這個3.6億的美元我先跟委員報告齁剛剛您提到那個漢光的實彈齁我們只是取消那種叫漢光展示性的這種但是我們年度的這種實彈的訓練沒有少反而增加這個部分要跟各位委員報告台灣大陸的部分呢我們是採"},{"start":4703.592,"end":4705.515,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":4721.736,"end":4738.079,"text":"這一次的因為行政審查的程序加速了以後讓我們也能夠快速的取得所以我們是兩個雙重的方式都來併進我們中科院已經目前來講巡飛彈一行中科院已量產"},{"start":4738.98,"end":4756.345,"text":"而由海軍陸戰隊採購了300枚今年交金50枚明年交金250枚都已經有這樣的能量跟能力來跟平行我們的堂皇道的三百行所以第二個是"},{"start":4758.266,"end":4772.478,"text":"尋飛彈的二型中科院已在去年的航太首度公開備受關注而且我們在中科院也得到了獲得年度的模範團隊所以這個我們絕對有這個能力為什麼還要再準備採購花3.6億的經過費用來買這個美國的所謂的這個"},{"start":4787.176,"end":4787.961,"text":"彈丸刀三倍刑"},{"start":4789.81,"end":4816.347,"text":"主席再給我幾秒鐘市委員你好剛才陳如委員所講的中科院第二期六百目前還在研發階段今年會完成所有的研發測評明年預劃把新人做好之後會向軍總展示就如陳如剛剛部長講的其實我們那個武器系統由研發跟外交來並行的方式來走中科院也沒有放棄在研發持續的"},{"start":4816.547,"end":4840.726,"text":"所以中科院已經有這個能力所以沒有必要再跟美國來採購彈簧刀三百型我們今天我們要刀錢要發在刀口上中科院既然有能力我們應該以中科院為主不要仰賴美國這一些武器既然都可以平行的對抗為什麼還要再採購"},{"start":4841.226,"end":4856.593,"text":"外務委員陸軍、參謀長這邊向您補充報告。第一個,我們向美採購的它是一個成熟而且是在戰場上有實戰經驗的一個成熟的裝備。第二個,不管是彈簧刀300或是Artis600或是中科院所研發的巡飛彈,因為我們的敵情的目標種類不同。"},{"start":4860.174,"end":4872.207,"text":"那我們會依據不同的目標然後有多重的這個符合戰術的用心。我們在審慎的考量好不好在審慎的考量不要輕易的來這樣子來做一個決定。好以上。謝謝。接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢。"},{"start":4894.091,"end":4910.14,"text":"主席好因為昨天下午在大院質詢的時候已經邀請這個院長跟部長已經質詢過那麼今天很多的細節是提供參謀本部做一個參考所以我這邊請參謀總長梅上將請梅總長"},{"start":4920.289,"end":4944.741,"text":"總統好過去我們同事多年互動學習累積經驗個人一直很珍惜那段過去留下來的記憶今天看您承受這麼大的擔當跟責任在這邊以總長在軍事的指揮權責所以我今天的不是質詢理論上我做出是建言不涉及到你的指揮管制"},{"start":4945.759,"end":4946.66,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":4967.313,"end":4979.325,"text":"議員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2議員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王�"},{"start":4982.233,"end":5002.478,"text":"那麼今天這麼多年來了因為就中間就失去在這個過去ROE上面的研析那麼過去很多的同仁沿用一個字叫SOP我想總長了解這是標準作業程序是行政流程的這個責任擔當但是從上到下一個版本那ROE就有不同了"},{"start":5003.96,"end":5010.651,"text":"這張圖其實在您剛才回答前任委員前面講的很多觀念已經講進去了,這邊僅供參考。"},{"start":5014.594,"end":5040.035,"text":"下面我們在這邊問政對國軍作建言的時候我們通常是目的方法、手段、誓言做法、建議那麼我們這邊提供一個建議要培育國軍熟人戰爭法、武裝衝突法跟國際人道等法務人員藉由常態化戰場的訓練官兵將交戰或是接戰準則深植人心我這邊在這邊向各位報告這個是2019年"},{"start":5042.637,"end":5053.585,"text":"二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王�"},{"start":5066.445,"end":5088.324,"text":"那這一次您提到的要去中心化我們在反想定裡面都有授權就是剛剛您講的基層我們設定了目標方法手段以及建議現在建議裡面事項就產生就是當我們在做作戰區的時候有一個想定的前提第一個就是所有中華電信的中繼台通通失效"},{"start":5089.065,"end":5104.556,"text":"要靠國軍的微波載台以及目前我們的衛星但是中興二號快到期中興五號的功能還有待要展示、驗證那低軌衛星尤其是跟OneWeb簽的合約我強烈建議"},{"start":5105.256,"end":5124.968,"text":"要跟這個所謂速發部跟NCC強調國軍需要的通訊頻段頻寬這個要及早定義而不是等事件發生了再做討論所以我們目的是要強化戰場的指揮作業能力那這種條件下就是光纖是不是仍然有效國軍的機動通訊車數量足不足"},{"start":5127.99,"end":5142.843,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":5156.57,"end":5173.776,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王�"},{"start":5184.384,"end":5208.279,"text":"無人機在俄烏戰爭中大家看到烏克蘭跟俄國相互用無人機而且大部分用大漿可是因為幅員廣大這個鄉鎮之間距離30公里城鎮之間100公里所以在這個連接的道路上不是烏軍就是俄軍看到就打誤擊的機率很低但是到了以哈戰爭中間無人機的使用"},{"start":5209.144,"end":5220.651,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王�"},{"start":5227.134,"end":5239.366,"text":"我曾經跟中東的美軍指揮官第五屆的司令開會提出他們特別強調在這個人在這個鏈路中間in the loop on the loop還有完全授權out of loop這個要及早定義"},{"start":5241.53,"end":5266.241,"text":"那我們來看一下這個北斗系統北斗是雙向指管他現在已經所有他的解放軍的車輛單兵甚至到排級都可以手機接受但是我們還沒到這個位未來的低軌衛星可能是一個重要的一個使用工具但是中國大陸現在已經在搶軌道他先向國際衛星聯盟登記了未來短期內10年內要160個軌道平面1萬顆衛星"},{"start":5271.035,"end":5291.393,"text":"那麼在俄烏戰爭中間,美方啊,這個Starlink協助它是46000個點那每一個點就是一個接收站,但周圍的人手機就要靠過去一個月要800萬美金所以我們這個要有它的好處,就要有備援的鈔票這個要規劃進去,這個圖請做參考"},{"start":5296.329,"end":5314.708,"text":"中國大陸這個火箭軍的他也考慮到他可能被北斗會被干擾掉或者地面控制站破壞於是他利用八重八橫的光纖再配合無人機的中繼那這個就是將來我們可以做參考local不管用伏身器用無人機做中繼通訊是一個選項"},{"start":5318.117,"end":5344.723,"text":"那反響定就是對方這個是去年8月4號的投擔軌跡再加上他的很可能我們地面通訊基礎設施可能到時候功能可能就不完整甚至部分功能就沒有了那這個時候在我們的運用規劃就剛剛您講的權責下售、任務了解、授權、責任承擔這個都是在ROE裡面會defend清楚了但是我們還是需要由中央指揮的一個備援模式要能夠掌握"},{"start":5347.946,"end":5366.638,"text":"這張圖昨天展示過了就是要模擬彈道那希望在解釋的時候對國人、貴國軍的有個瞭解這張圖我特別來解釋利劍演習就是這個2024利劍2024A的利劍總長請看這上面這個是台灣的防空識別區的圖這邊有四個在海峽中線以東空軍有四個訓練空域"},{"start":5376.667,"end":5393.936,"text":"但是我們國防部做了簡報的這個圖就是講我們把中共拒止在24里外並不是用他的圖可是這個圖上面只有三個訓練空隱我跟你講這張圖是舊圖GNC的這個老版本我建議圖不只是電子化"},{"start":5394.736,"end":5422.376,"text":"要更新版本有些是要從國外買過來有些是請我們自己的圖那這個就是套上去在這個同一個時間我們要顯示到就是說不只是中共演習或者我們漢光演習在周遭下面圖看海上的動態看民航機的動態這個要全天限制你看他的商船民航機有沒有受到影響做你一個判斷的客觀參考像這個是民航圖"},{"start":5424.129,"end":5441.025,"text":"眾縣以東市4個訓練空域,套上這是今天早上中共干擾的,就是說共同圖像,雖然是樹化的圖,但是要經過GIS校正,重複套疊,對長官來講,可以有一個更客觀的判斷方法。"},{"start":5441.937,"end":5454.165,"text":"議員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2議員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2議員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2議員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員"},{"start":5474.793,"end":5500.502,"text":"所以這個海灘過去的紅色現在都不存在即便是少數的紅色它的規模也只能容納迎擊的登陸所以你在演練假設這個情境發生部隊上來城鎮作戰如何做這個都是反想定這個每一個想定都很重要不是會不會發生而是想定跟想定中間的時間的關聯性要把它做出來像這個圖是一個示意台灣北部"},{"start":5502.919,"end":5531.134,"text":"這裏是所有的海堤工程建設工程根本已經沒有一個大規模的登機了所以左邊的這個是外航的想定這是外面的報告要把這些圖套上衛星圖套上我們現在作案圖那你的作戰想定就比較合理化那甚至在對面這個導彈的攻擊模擬那最後就是說我們把一個整個的想定過程排解出來"},{"start":5532.536,"end":5560.996,"text":"紅軍有紅軍的做法藍軍難做雖然紅軍沒有實兵但是你演練的科目並不代表每個科目多要但是互動關係找出來在這個同時要了解社會的堅韌性就是當時是不是已經比方講從D隊到D加3完全民間是斷水斷電國軍在想定過程中間要結合社會堅韌性如果社會堅韌性斷水斷電而只有國軍演練這個就脫鉤了以上提供總長做參考"},{"start":5562.137,"end":5588.331,"text":"總長有沒有什麼回應?委員我們今年其實就是朝向的就是不管您剛才提到的這些的想定然後第二個聯動性還有所謂的這些的連續其實我們會有這些的改變其實就是讓國軍能夠突破能夠進步更結合實戰那您剛才所提供的這些資訊我們都會很好的去做一個分析納入我們非常重要的一個資訊的參考謝謝您提供的這些資訊"},{"start":5595.518,"end":5598.923,"text":"在用。是。"},{"start":5601.939,"end":5604.161,"text":"是,了解,是,是,謝謝委員。"},{"start":5636.985,"end":5638.566,"text":"接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢。黃國昌委員"},{"start":5661.924,"end":5682.786,"text":"部長,在2017年的時候,立法院因為使用了中國製的太陽能力變氣,它叫做Inverter,基本上是直流電轉換成交流電的一個太陽光電模組當中必備的部分。那裡面幾乎都有內嵌monitor unit,也就是遠端,可以看它發電的數量。"},{"start":5684.728,"end":5703.988,"text":"這件事情後來被披露了以後後來被披露了以後我們執政黨的立委參與議委跟前立委陳柏惟做了一個非常重要的記者會說禁用中國的逆變器要不然會有嚴重的紅色危機"},{"start":5705.909,"end":5728.33,"text":"當目前為止,國防部是不是有個清楚的政策立場在國防部重要的軍事要塞所使用的光電或者是逆變器禁用中國製的產品?我們本部在區議員署裡面特別有鎮定不得使用陸製品的一個條文這個是統一的,在每一份企業裡面都有這樣的規定嗎?是"},{"start":5731.155,"end":5755.656,"text":"因為我接到檢舉我們國家注資30億我們的國發會跟耀華玻璃是第一大股東號稱綠能國家隊的聯合戰神他們承接了國防部非常多光電招租的案子也就是用我們國防部包括很多軍事要塞的土地、屋頂做太陽能光電那基本上"},{"start":5757.045,"end":5774.552,"text":"推動再生能源我們都支持但是在我們的軍事要塞裡面去做太陽光電的模組這件事情事實是會用到中國製的產品有沒有國安危機這件事情就變得很重要因為這個事不是今天才發生"},{"start":5775.922,"end":5799.978,"text":"但我接到的檢舉是說我們在陸軍蘭陽地區的指揮部光電的標出案裡面得標的就是我們綠能國家隊的子公司叫做永良公司那這家公司呢當初在競標的時候說他要承諾使用國內領導品牌的變流器結果沒想到"},{"start":5801.348,"end":5808.905,"text":"去跟國防部爭取標案的時候說一套實際做的是另外一套實際做的是哪一套"},{"start":5811.124,"end":5835.704,"text":"如同剛剛部長所說的在租人契約書裡面已經白紙黑字寫不可以使用暴露地區的產品但我接到的檢舉是在蘭陽地區的指揮部裡面所有用的逆變器都是中國製的產品那因為這個檢舉很嚴重所以我昨天特別跑去蘭陽指揮部那邊去現看"},{"start":5836.565,"end":5862.645,"text":"那也非常感謝我們南洋指揮部的弟兄很辛苦昨天太陽很大陪我在那邊看結果看到的現在部長啊您看到的就是所謂的逆變器旁邊貼的貼紙旁邊貼的貼紙大剌剌的就寫的Made in China大剌剌的就寫的Made in China這個讓我們非常的困惑非常的狐疑是"},{"start":5863.625,"end":5878.917,"text":"當初這個東西在裝的時候契約書已經載明了不可以做這件事情他們還是無視於國防部相關的規定甚至是契約上面的要求做了這件事情而且毫不避諱的"},{"start":5879.938,"end":5897.818,"text":"就在產品上面的貼紙就寫了Made in China這件事情我昨天去南洋指揮部玩了以後我有跟現場主持會議的指揮官說麻煩這件事情請他昨天回去的時候要跟部裡邊報告部長有沒有收到這樣的訊息"},{"start":5899.089,"end":5925.54,"text":"跟委員報告有,我們有,就我現在得到的訊息就是說,這一個逆變企業或者變流企業,它是德國一個叫SMA的公司品牌,但是是在大陸組裝的。那麼現在確認它有,我也使用的這一個大概是44個。那我們會一月要求陳商要在一個月內將這些錄製品拆除,更換符合這個契約的這個規範的一個產品。"},{"start":5928.441,"end":5935.906,"text":"這就是我今天把這件事情在質詢的時候請部長注意因為對於後續的處理這件事情"},{"start":5937.157,"end":5958.098,"text":"這家廠商是惡劣至極啊明明就知道不可以這樣做他還是決定這樣做但我們如果今天國防部在主張權力的時候只是把這個置義萬為胡作非為的廠商只是叫他更換完部長你覺得對這個廠商會有任何嚇阻的效力嗎"},{"start":5960.518,"end":5980.195,"text":"我們會按照那個合約條款的這個內容,那我到現在為止沒有清楚的看到合約條款的內容。那我們一方面就它這個要改進,那我們也會清查有沒有裂案的這個情形,有類似案件的這些情形,我們都會來全面的清查。"},{"start":5981.209,"end":6009.534,"text":"因為部長是非常優秀的法律人特別拜託部長回去看我們國防部的契約因為如果在我們國防部的契約裡面對於這種無視國防部的政策無視契約條款根本置義萬為的廠商我們如果定的契約法律效果只是被抓到了以後換回來就好了我必須要說不會有任何嚇阻的效果"},{"start":6010.074,"end":6028.741,"text":"以後他就繼續這樣幹因為如同剛剛部長所點出來的如同剛剛部長所點出來的這家廠商他是不是被欺騙所以才去用中國的逆變器不是他從頭到尾就知道他用的是中國的逆變器而且用的範圍"},{"start":6030.27,"end":6048.131,"text":"我再跟部長報告一下用的範圍恐怕不是只有南洋指揮部因為到目前為止我所收集到的資訊包括了我們在高雄的海軍艦隊指揮部包括了國防大學包括了三軍總醫院松山分區"},{"start":6049.452,"end":6078.023,"text":"這家廠商非常厲害國防部非常多的隱屈全部都有他們的案子他們可以這樣置義妄為無視規定如果我們最後國防部所謂的依照契約辦理只是要求他換過來的話恐怕是沒有辦法真正的二組未來有類似不肖的廠商一樣化葫蘆反正我就先用被抓到了以後再換回來就好了"},{"start":6078.743,"end":6091.342,"text":"部長是不是可以承諾嚴肅的檢討目前契約的規範是不是只能夠要求他換還是應該要採取更嚴厲追溯法律責任的行動"},{"start":6092.627,"end":6116.022,"text":"我們會來檢視相關合約的這個整個內容有沒有類似有一些相關的這個就是說我們要和約定的相關的內容來處理那另外我們也會全面清查國軍所有的這些太陽光電的這個設置營區是不是有使用錄製品的設備部長最後一點提醒就好了因為這個東西是驗收通過的"},{"start":6117.023,"end":6144.101,"text":"今年二月喔驗收通過的我昨天在現場的時候其實我很困惑因為我一看到那個機身旁邊的貼紙就寫Made in China我的困惑在於說人家就已經大剌剌的也不遮掩就是Made in China我們驗收怎麼會通過但請部長不要誤會我的意思我沒有意思要去追究我們蘭陽指揮部弟兄他們的責任因為我知道"},{"start":6145.063,"end":6160.359,"text":"他們很辛苦光電這些產品未必也是他們所熟悉的但是是不是在驗收的SOP上少了關鍵的一環例如說要求那個廠商出具原產地的證明"},{"start":6161.601,"end":6188.52,"text":"沒有出具這個東西的話驗收不會通過因為我相信如果當初驗收的SOP有這個要求的話應該不會出現這麼離譜的狀況是不是可以請驗收的程序一併檢討未來不要讓這個不肖的廠商有上下棘手的空間我們會一併來檢討這個委員所指教的這樣子的一個就是說有這樣的要求我們會來一併納入檢討"},{"start":6190.052,"end":6191.994,"text":"主席有請顧部長。請顧部長"},{"start":6222.321,"end":6245.397,"text":"是林委員好部長好我想今天還有非常多的媒體在場您剛進來的時候很多媒體都在針對好像今天有評論報導講說您來委員會備詢然後連參謀總長都一起來了所以說您這個這樣的動作遭受到質疑不過本席看了一下今天其實我們的討論事項的議程就是國防部長率領參謀總長來報告漢光四十號演習嗎"},{"start":6249.5,"end":6265.877,"text":"我們也都知道這個國會擴權法案目前復議也失敗了所以是在釋憲當中那麼這是主席所排定的這個議程所以您真的覺得這個議程當中有不適合但是不好意思說嗎還是說其實您覺得是OK的"},{"start":6266.237,"end":6281.581,"text":"因為我覺得既然這是議程當中那麼主席會議也要求的話您也就必須要率領這個參謀總長來出席嘛那麼您個人怎麼來看這個題目因為我感覺上覺得這個報導從頭到尾都沒有提到一個關鍵就是這樣子如果沒到參謀總長來參謀總長可能藐視國會啊"},{"start":6284.967,"end":6302.433,"text":"跟委員報告第一個應該要跟國會來接受到國會來接受質詢的基本上應該還是國防部部長那但是大法官四十四六一號解釋確實有一個所謂列席備詢的一個規定那他就是在解釋參謀總長有沒有"},{"start":6303.613,"end":6324.226,"text":"列席備詢的義務。我查了461號解釋,它確實有這樣子的一個列席備詢的一個義務存在。但是當然就涉及國防機密的事項,當然就可以不回答。當然我也是如此,就涉及到國家安全的這些機密的這個"},{"start":6326.927,"end":6345.545,"text":"事項我們當然都不能夠在這個公開的場合加以回答那所以基於這樣的一個考量那又是涉及到漢光那因為漢光進入實兵驗證之後呢這一個統裁部是由這個參謀總長來負責所以我想我們認為那就就這個主題來講那就請參謀總長來列席備詢"},{"start":6349.195,"end":6366.847,"text":"好,謝謝部長清楚的說明因為我想這個有的時候這個因果關係還是要搞清楚如果說是立法院的要求那麼對於國防委員會的尊重我相信部長也會依照這個方式來進行溝通那麼我也不希望說好像質詢還沒有開始但是這個參謀總長是不是要來然後就完全的"},{"start":6371.75,"end":6373.451,"text":"規劃情形：一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告 «漢光四十號演習»規劃情形：一、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":6388.359,"end":6404.917,"text":"那麼本席對於這個你們今天在報告當中特別提到的是接下來會以就是不必要的一種所謂的展示性的這個演習的部分我們就把它盡量的避免或減少但是我想部長你也知道如果以俄烏戰爭的發展連中共的共軍將領都說接下來"},{"start":6409.262,"end":6414.304,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":6431.355,"end":6451.71,"text":"這一次有特別將這個認知戰的部分給納入進來那因為認知戰的部分我們現在如果要進一步講是應該講說是一個戰略溝通的機制也就是說他要對內展現國防的防衛作戰力量來建立全民的信心那對外"},{"start":6452.41,"end":6471.343,"text":"也要傳達我國建立防衛的決心那爭取國際社會的關注跟支持那對敵要想辦法削弱他們的這個對台動武的決心瓦解敵軍的戰鬥的意志這些等等都會都是在我們這一次這一個征戰"},{"start":6472.628,"end":6477.109,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24"},{"start":6500.523,"end":6501.504,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":6522.804,"end":6538.003,"text":"兩岸之間的金融的交流也是非常頻繁的那麼我想要就教部長的就是過去因為您曾經也擔過金管會的主委啦所以我會拿這一題來講的原因是因為金融業的部分必須要跟央行"},{"start":6538.664,"end":6547.515,"text":"跟金管會有做一些溝通跟交流過去我一再提醒的是我在財政委員會要求央行或金管會做這個部分的時候他們的回應當然都是說他們有一些內部的演練跟操練但是如果以二屋戰爭來講為什麼"},{"start":6554.304,"end":6568.22,"text":"在俄烏戰爭底下銀行可以奇蹟似的可以生還系統可以如期的運作那就是他們在2021年底知道俄羅斯有意圖入侵的時候就採取了一些措施包括烏克蘭的央行跟銀行業都有展開過壓力測試所以我在這裡要提醒的是部長有沒有可能考慮"},{"start":6574.767,"end":6575.287,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":6598.065,"end":6609.535,"text":"現在的作戰恐怕不是只是我們看到的這些槍、炮、彈藥實體型的傷害式的作戰金融的傷害其實可能更無形而且更需要關注"},{"start":6610.34,"end":6628.797,"text":"跟委員報告,因為我在國安會待過,那這一個部分我們在國安會的時候,那就這個相關的涉及到,特別是涉及到全社會防衛任性的這一塊,那我們將各種"},{"start":6630.552,"end":6635.499,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":6649.636,"end":6674.831,"text":"也在做相關的一些兵推要做相關的兵推然後另外也要加強他們的金融相關的韌性就我的理解是如此那至於他這個整個部分要不要納入漢光的這個部分因為我們現在有這個明安、萬安、同心、志強這個部分那還有其他的這個整個的部分在屬於這個權動署他們所規劃的所"},{"start":6679.053,"end":6695.348,"text":"不說規劃,他們是作為一個秘書單位,現在總統也成立說要成立全民社會防衛的委員會,那相關的這樣子的"},{"start":6700.714,"end":6721.429,"text":"全社會防衛的這個韌性或者國家韌性的建構是非常重要的一環那我想哪一些部分可以納入到這個漢光的兵推的作為一個演練的一個部分呢這個部分可能我們還要做跨部會的一個協調特別如果涉及到"},{"start":6722.41,"end":6739.489,"text":"國安層級的那可能要由國安會那甚至是跟行政院那邊要做一些協調那本部的立場應該是站在要配應該來配合來實施說這樣子的一個演練"},{"start":6740.609,"end":6761.661,"text":"好我想因為以部長的經歷啦從軍管會到國安會再到現在的這個國防部當中本席會在這裡提出建議跟建言就是很多的戰爭的一開始恐怕現在不會是第一顆炸彈可能會是第一個錯假訊息倒是我就像您所說的剛剛我特別提醒的金融漢光演習從金融系統"},{"start":6763.802,"end":6789.553,"text":"的謠言或者是金融系統的損壞造成社會的動盪就如同每一次我們漢光演習只要演習完之後中共都會幫我們免費出一些認知戰的假想啦比如說會講說漢光演習之後蔡英文就要落跑了啦又或者是說像這一次漢光演習之前就開始放消息說啊這個有內部消息舉出要取消什麼紅金時兵演練啊然後會有一些這個冒充軍職的假訊息出來啊"},{"start":6792.634,"end":6795.097,"text":"那麼所以說對於漢光演習來講本席在這裡會比較提醒的就是認知戰的補強包括有沒有第一時間有成立這種所謂錯假訊息的反制的機構那這個部分剛剛其實部長已經有回應了"},{"start":6809.372,"end":6831.303,"text":"那在最後的質詢的時間我只是提醒部長這裡是不是可以把包括金融的面、網路面跟科技面就如您所說的可能還要更高層級來做一個大規模的開會跟演練那麼相關的如果有進度跟報告的話是不是可以來私下跟我們委員會或者是相關的一個部分有一些進展讓我們知道"},{"start":6832.062,"end":6853.974,"text":"就漢光的演習在軍事面這一塊要不要再擴大到全社會防衛是一個可以討論的啦但是這不是國防部應該一個部會可以做成決定的應該還要跨部會來做相關的檢討我想我從國安會出身我理解這個部分的重要性"},{"start":6855.235,"end":6856.256,"text":"接下來請王定宇召委上台諮詢。"},{"start":6886.788,"end":6889.315,"text":"好,謝謝主席,麻煩參謀總長梅教授上將請梅總長"},{"start":6896.451,"end":6917.307,"text":"委員好,好久不見了。辛苦了。很高興看到你來到我們委員會。當然按照憲法,有些問題你可以回答,有些問題你不能回答。所以我們待會就教育總長,如果你認為不適合回答的,你就直接講,沒有關係。我們這次漢光演習,其實有幾個重點,包含時時就是,"},{"start":6918.268,"end":6919.489,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":6946.531,"end":6972.293,"text":"那我們要怎麼去驗證這個東西我第一個要請教就是要各單位獨立作戰那每個單位都要熟悉ROE嘛我們的接戰規則否則我不曉得接戰規則我又找不到長官請示我很怕這個狀況所以才要去中心化所以本席請教我們總長第一個問題就是我們現在設定的最小的接戰單位"},{"start":6973.939,"end":6998.641,"text":"也就是要熟悉能夠下命令根據ROE做出指令的你們現在設定是到多少?是到班牌聯那陸海空軍那有另外的一個單位請教一下總長以地面部隊來跟委員做一個說明如果說是一個小部隊的特戰編組他也可以依照我們原來所設定可以給予他的任務特戰編組有時候是一個Squad而已是的"},{"start":6999.585,"end":7016.6,"text":"我們賦予他的任務,賦予他的一個授權,然後賦予他的一個責任遞進,然後他也具備獨立作戰的能力,當他沒有在依照這些的所有的這些的達到他的一個條件的時候,"},{"start":7018.021,"end":7043.633,"text":"他可以依照我們已經授權給他的我們已經告訴他的ROE告訴他的這相關的作為他就能夠遂行指揮官的意圖這裡面牽到幾個部分第一個就是說我們過去部隊習慣請示上級連看到無人機都要搖拐拐那現在你們在每一個最小的作戰單位我都給你一個接戰指令授權範圍"},{"start":7045.074,"end":7066.611,"text":"那他是還要請示只是斷聯了我作戰區跟作戰區上跟下斷聯了我才能夠採取所謂去中心化的自己做決策還是我們就訓練他習慣於你已經有這個範圍你已經有這個規範了你就去執行不用再請示是哪一種我要跟委員做一個報告其實兩者是互補"},{"start":7067.552,"end":7077.756,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24"},{"start":7095.083,"end":7113.548,"text":"同年的已經中斷掉了。其實在這個去中心化的執管,他非常重要的一件事情,他要求他的快速。他能夠依照敵情判斷之後,依照指揮官授予他的任務,他就能夠採行行動。這個是他的一個,不見得要回報。"},{"start":7118.186,"end":7140.971,"text":"有對到我真正想問的我們到底是在通訊鏈C4ISR中斷的時候才採取授權還是把我們的部隊的文化整個改變美軍是這樣子喔你有個目標文化都會改變對你有個方法你有個授權範圍你就可以勇於敢於做決定嘛所以你現在是後者"},{"start":7141.411,"end":7170.493,"text":"是的那這是我們中華民國部隊很大的變革喔是的但是他還是會有一個中心化的指揮這個不變指揮鏈一定會在啦但是會有去中心化的行動報委員我這樣子說明指揮鏈、授權、命令、目標都很明確當然那個有中心但是進到行動的時候他可以知道我這個範圍根據我手上的工具跟我得到的授權範圍來決定我怎麼做那我就要問你第二個問題了"},{"start":7171.414,"end":7195.131,"text":"那這樣接戰指令、ROE、接戰規則就要很普遍的下放到很基層的單位嗎?甚至到單兵。我們今年是到單兵。我們現在有到這樣程度嗎?跟委員報告我們從去年開始推動應該講ROE的推動我們推動幾年了但是我們現階段又把它去做一些的這個重新的去做調整"},{"start":7195.751,"end":7222.739,"text":"我們今年的ROE在今年漢光我們會驗證到每一個單兵手上就會有一個他的交戰規則告訴你在什麼樣的狀況下你就可以採行行動你就可以使用武器裝備所以不同的單位他其實完全不一樣這個就是變成以前坦白講以前漢光是用演的啦C好的比較多啦現在你這個就不能演了我現在瞭解你這個班"},{"start":7224.226,"end":7253.685,"text":"那班長可能會不見啊不只是通信的問題那每一個單兵知不知道我的接戰指令跟我的目標範圍嗎所以這一個變革其實是提升戰力增加部隊彈性還有存活率這個其實是一個往實戰化去做處理那本席認為國軍勇於去做改變這要給您肯定而且前幾年磨合透過演習讓我們的各作戰單位各最小單位習慣做決定勇於做決定"},{"start":7254.98,"end":7255.24,"text":"主席"},{"start":7274.565,"end":7298.721,"text":"也會有一個精進的方向嗎?會。那個會不會列機密?這一次會第一次做,但是有些的不...我們整個漢光的演習的這些檢討都是列為機密。對,因為我們過去講了很多ROE的東西。是的。但去中心化的實兵演練,這是第一次。確實。確實是第一次。是,其實也是一些經驗的累積之後,讓我們可以做到這一步。那軍令系統在推動這一套的時候,"},{"start":7299.758,"end":7316.188,"text":"改革總是會有阻力嗎?沒有阻力的改革通常是假的啦。你在推動當中有沒有遇到困難?其實就是觀念的建立是我們的第一個碰到的一個困難。那觀念其實,坦白講我們這邊那麼多老朋友都是將領,越資深的將領觀念要改變越困難啦。"},{"start":7317.328,"end":7327.33,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":7345.874,"end":7374.308,"text":"所以我剛才問了不知道總長方不方便講你在推動這個區中心化跟ROE這個下放到很基層到單兵身上了坦白講指揮官反而是事前的計畫要做的周詳作戰的行動反而是下放到更大指揮官的責任更重有沒有遇到阻力應該講說我們在指揮官要完整規劃剛才我跟委員提到的五件事情第一個要給他非常給下級非常清楚的任務"},{"start":7375.809,"end":7393.861,"text":"還有他要執行的這個內容還有第二個要非常明確的授權他能做什麼事情還有授權的範圍甚至接替指揮的這些都在裡面第三要給他規劃出非常精準的責任區這些東西指揮官是個挑戰沒有一個不是挑戰我請教你們過去在官校的時候有學過這些東西嗎?"},{"start":7398.904,"end":7414.231,"text":"二、報委員我當時也是對這個是一張白紙也是這幾年的累積這跟我們過去將領的養成其實完全不一樣欸因為你事情要想得很透徹這一塊這一塊是什麼誰去執行怎麼執行帶隊的人不在了誰接上來"},{"start":7415.455,"end":7443.523,"text":"然後通訊斷了之後怎麼弄,大概有很多很多細節。所以坦白講這應該會有遇到一些困難點。但是這我們必須要做的。檢討是你們機密本席尊重啦,否則坦白講我們委員會應該要了解臺灣首次進行了這樣子的RE跟去中心化的實兵演練。那個檢討如果在不設機密下我們也請顧部長參著看看,可以讓我們委員會可以了解。但是機密我們是尊重。好你先請回喔。"},{"start":7444.223,"end":7472.205,"text":"不,部長先請坐。今天好像,有啦,部長先上來,還有我們海軍參謀長兩位,其他先請回。另外是一個制度的調整。這一次中共的潛艦在台海中線以西,大概靠近金門附近。我看了舊的資料,大概那個座標有三次潛艦在那邊被發現,中共的潛艦。那,到目前為止有確認型號了嗎?"},{"start":7474.139,"end":7502.225,"text":"有他是什麼型號不能講我從來不為難你們不方便講就不方便講我猜是094嘛 凍94嘛因為那個駝背駝的那麼明顯他是一路扶航還是到那邊才扶起來應該是一路扶航應該是一路扶航因為在那邊再扶起來就另外一個事情了那他出現在這裡的原因你們估計是什麼"},{"start":7504.189,"end":7509.873,"text":"我今天要問的是另外一個問題,澎湖的漁民去那邊抓小管拍到這個相片提供出來對我們國軍有沒有幫助?"},{"start":7532.466,"end":7544.974,"text":"三、審查本院委員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等"},{"start":7554.56,"end":7572.185,"text":"外國船艦包含中國的是有錢可以領的,對不對?是所以中國我們分成軍用、民用、公務還有24海里外、24海里內等等等等那科研船也在裡面,獎金大概就是3萬、2萬、1萬不等那你看我看下一個表,你仔細看喔"},{"start":7573.685,"end":7590.032,"text":"這幾年共軍對台灣的威脅的值跟量都是上升沒錯吧?是那怎麼會我們漁民有獎金可以拿的卻逐年一直遞減甚至今年都是還是零欸我第一個先請問一下094發現了這一艘漁船他可以申請獎金吧?"},{"start":7591.964,"end":7592.264,"text":"報告主席"},{"start":7610.797,"end":7637.908,"text":"我們現在本國籍的船在外海的不會只有漁船啦還有遊艇還有海釣船所以是不是修訂獎勵對象從本國籍漁船放寬到本國籍船舶這第一個建議這增加對國軍獲得目標的名利的範圍這對國軍的戰力是往外延伸嘛第二個獎勵的限制你們你剛剛講的是這個你們已經在掌控中的你就不發獎金了"},{"start":7639.413,"end":7665.711,"text":"那漁船會說我跟你講的你都說掌控中那算了所以我認為這個部長可以研究看看我們本軍艦艇已經在監控中的被發現的是不是要合法獎金但是跟像我們一般的刑事犯罪都有分成第一個發現、第二個發現、第三個發現你可以依次遞減最後一個獎金是不是該適度提高來增加誘因這三點供國防部參考好不好部長這樣可以嗎"},{"start":7666.371,"end":7666.391,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":7689.606,"end":7697.009,"text":"等會兒沈博洋委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘。接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。你好,我們請部長。請部長。"},{"start":7722.645,"end":7745.794,"text":"部長好。部長這一次的漢光演習有沒有規劃同時在漢光演習執行的過程當中那共軍不管是在共建共機同時老台這個時候的protocol或者是說對應的準則有沒有先做好準備避免情勢升溫那這樣的狀況是不是可以請部長簡單回應一下"},{"start":7748.308,"end":7772.393,"text":"我想就這個共軍可能的擾台的這個部分都在我們的聯合情監偵監視的一個範圍之內那所以我們會持續的一直充分的掌握然後世界的對應包括這個在空的訓練機然後戰鬥巡邏機等等然後船艦我們也會做這個"},{"start":7778.835,"end":7805.057,"text":"對這個他已經在那邊的傳言我們都會做一個監控這樣子。部長我的意思是說因為在漢光演習演習視同作戰嘛那這時候是長時間高強度那我們的國軍不管是陸海空都在這種最高強度的狀況之下那在這一種的壓力之下同時遇到中共如果還是一樣大規模的這樣子來去侵擾我國的話"},{"start":7806.578,"end":7816.508,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王�"},{"start":7825.187,"end":7849.679,"text":"我的理解是我們如果是屬於那一個要屬於警戒三昧維持的部分他是不會參與這個漢光的一個演習的部隊所以我們還是維持一定的這個兵力跟數量來特別是海空軍的部分來掌握這個敵情的狀況來應對所以應該"},{"start":7854.935,"end":7861.323,"text":"應該不至於會,您講了這個有發生衝突升高的一個可能性這樣子。"},{"start":7862.489,"end":7890.548,"text":"所以演訓的部隊跟他實質上面過去我們掌控大概是分離開來的就對了?對對因為我們講所有部隊不是講所有的全部的他可能有的正好在做他的相關的一些警戒或者是剛好在測考等等的這些還是會維持住我們相關的部隊都出去就是運用我們可以運用的一個兵力然後來最大化來做這樣子"},{"start":7892.569,"end":7915.282,"text":"好謝謝部長那我們來看一下下一頁那這個是我們把今年所有由國防部那他釋放出來的資訊那我們來做一個比較我想之前台灣的一些其他國防相關安全研究的這些雜誌都有做這一些數據上面或者是把這一個軌跡然後做一個統整"},{"start":7916.187,"end":7939.697,"text":"我們現在看到說它的範圍跟接近臺灣的領空領海的狀況是越來越接近、越來越頻繁。最近的距離是到臺灣的本島是31海里。我們強調這件事情是因為我必須再說就是國防部不管是在我們的社群媒體把這些訊息釋放出來是非常正確的做法。"},{"start":7940.197,"end":7962.954,"text":"那我們是希望說未來不僅要做而且可以更頻繁那可以把掌控的情質如果不違反國家安全的狀況之下更大的揭露出去給所有這個國際的媒體跟國際的研究智庫來去使用我為什麼再次強調這件事情是因為在許多的聽證會或者是國會議員我們的接觸上面他們都一直在強調說"},{"start":7964.555,"end":7990.766,"text":"臺灣面臨的威脅他們需要更加的視覺化來去呈現給美國的公眾或者是這一個其他相關的利害相關者因為只有視覺化我們才知道說我們威脅到底在哪裡那所以從這一個陸海空和周邊空域的活動示意圖我覺得這就是一個很好的方式那特別過去是有把畸形來全部都有揭露但是後來據我上次來質詢國防"},{"start":7991.886,"end":7993.867,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":8014.195,"end":8043.095,"text":"呃我我我我我先請這個呃情事室來回回回答一下他們的他們的肯慎是來委員好我是情事市長那當然委員提到這段是我們長時間在做每天早上都會公布整個海空的動態那是我們調整的時候當然包括委員提到的我們之前公布包含他的機型數量甚至從哪個地方在哪個地方做活動但是呃我們通盤考量之後因為敵情的威脅他是多變的多元化的"},{"start":8043.735,"end":8060.938,"text":"那我們很多情資來源等等也因為透過這些我們公布了之後啊那不管是對岸也好甚至我們有門國家要給我們一些情資警訊告訴我們說畢竟台海周邊的這些情資威脅是越來越多元"},{"start":8061.459,"end":8063.08,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":8079.514,"end":8096.293,"text":"未來齁可以參考就是說這些示意圖可以更視覺化的把它做出來讓我們作為國會議員我們到其他的國家的時候在講中共對台的威脅的時候那我們可以展示出來那用更方對更視覺化更快速更直覺的方式我在國安會已經到國安部之後我都"},{"start":8096.833,"end":8111.717,"text":"我都就這個部分希望有一些檢討,那我們再檢討來看看。但是因為情勢事實是顧慮到我們徵收的手段,因為這樣子會有一些洩漏,所以我們可能還要再研析一下。"},{"start":8111.957,"end":8127.243,"text":"沒問題這之間的平衡怎麼抓我想還是要總體的考量那就是在資訊透明跟資訊的這個保防這些其實都要並重所以可以理解因為資訊的揭露有助於我們跟國際之間的一些戰略溝通"},{"start":8133.207,"end":8147.077,"text":"國防外交委員會委員同時是國防也是外交的委員那我們在外交的場合上面在不同的智庫也會講這些事情那接下來就是想請教一下就是關於這個勤勞的部分那我看到"},{"start":8148.198,"end":8163.683,"text":"華盛頓郵報的報導說,美軍為了防止中共的犯台那中共艦隊要入侵的時候,美軍說會在台海部署數千艘的無人艦艇、無人水面艦艇還有空中無人機等等。我想請教一下這個國防部的這些同仁"},{"start":8164.463,"end":8187.779,"text":"我們有沒有足夠的數量來去面對因為根據這個英國國防安全智庫那皇家聯合研究所的報告他說烏克蘭每月在戰場上面損失大概是一萬架無人機那一萬架無人機當然不是有些是高價值的無人機那有些是比較平價小型的無人機但這樣子的價值或者數量不能夠用這樣子直接去換算"},{"start":8188.88,"end":8202.873,"text":"但是我想透過發展無人機去減低我們的傳統兵力的這種損失當然是非常重要我想知道說目前大家怎麼估計我們的庫存是否足夠我們的自治率是否足夠採購量是否足夠"},{"start":8204.234,"end":8217.819,"text":"跟委員報告我個人認為是不足夠所以我們要建立自主的產能來有效的應對那還要引進這一個AI的系統來建立敵我識別這樣子的一個"},{"start":8219.54,"end":8242.949,"text":"情況也就是說我們這個面積狹隘啦吼那很多的這一個無人機那在上面的話那要建立敵國識別然後要建立擊殺鏈等等的這些都需要靠AR的輔助那無人機的這一個部分的發展我想日訓夜議那我們需要來有更多的多元的這個"},{"start":8244.702,"end":8269.738,"text":"不管結合到這個進行這個截擊在海上的階段,或者是在貪案的階段,我們都要運用各種不同型態的無人機。那這個部分屬於不對稱作戰裡面一個很重要的一環。那就像您講的這個無人機的耗量是相當的大,所以我們也很希望能夠建立這個自主產量。"},{"start":8271.642,"end":8298.679,"text":"我還是強調自主跟對外採購它是不會互相矛盾對,我們現在是並行對,就並行那當然是說這樣子看起來在烏克蘭的實戰上面的運用或者是其他國家那是非常的明確但是另外一個部分就是臺灣海峽那我們所要佈建的除了我們潛艦國造之外在無人載具的海下的載具跟海面上的載具最近美軍有一些新的這些建制"},{"start":8299.099,"end":8317.065,"text":"我想知道說這部分我們比較少看到畢竟那如果是在海下的話也很難去觀摩那這個部分我們的規劃大體上面的規劃是什麼有足夠的量能嗎我們國家有這些合格的這些國防的產業鏈可以做到這些海下載具嗎"},{"start":8319.085,"end":8339.331,"text":"我只能這樣子跟委員報告就是說這是我們未來不對稱建軍的一個重點那我們會跟印太司令部來持續的交流來持續的發展這樣子的一個您剛剛講的不管是空中的水面的跟水下的這些運用然後跟這個"},{"start":8342.261,"end":8353.787,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王�"},{"start":8368.375,"end":8394.577,"text":"我認為經過培訓之後他可以再進入這些國防產業鏈那他應該受到更大的一個重視那這是除了教育部來投入資源之外因為通常我們這些在國內的這些設備的構置那些競賽的構置都還是要跟教育部來去爭取資源可是這其實跟國防產業也是有關聯的所以這部分如果可以的話我們是希望"},{"start":8395.618,"end":8410.036,"text":"國防部也可以納入考量從國中、高中這些小型的飛手我們看到在烏克蘭很多他根本沒有任何的軍事的經驗那直接就被徵召那在市區外來去見面敵人那我認為說這些都是可以來去考慮的"},{"start":8410.737,"end":8412.398,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":8429.929,"end":8453.9,"text":"這個駕照是很長的一段時間才換那麼希望考照、換照的頻率可以像駕照一樣不要這麼頻繁的來去老民那這些更多人、更多不同的方面產業都可以來進入無人機產業來進入無人機的這個領域好謝謝,謝謝部長、謝謝各位好謝謝,謝謝委員好謝謝陳冠廷委員發言然後接下來由馬文君委員來發言"},{"start":8463.235,"end":8464.696,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請顧部長還有梅總長有請部長及總長"},{"start":8474.853,"end":8497.759,"text":"市委馬委員好部長好總長好久不見這一次我們特別在委員會邀請針對國防部就漢光四十號演習規劃的情形進行專案報告那我們特別邀請參謀總長梅上將可以列席主要是剛剛其實有很多位委員其實都有詢問過"},{"start":8500.14,"end":8514.567,"text":"那其實梅總長畢竟至少你是文道有先後、書業有專攻嘛那部長雖然曾經在國安會不過我們這一次漢光演習做了很多的變革那剛剛"},{"start":8516.328,"end":8518.291,"text":"委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":8533.015,"end":8535.056,"text":"委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":8561.71,"end":8571.939,"text":"前三大危險的區域一個俄烏一個就是以巴然後一個就是我們的台海那沒有理由不讓我們所有的國人更清楚的知道我們應該面對什麼樣的環境所以我們不管就什麼樣的議題討論我們希望都是朝正面來看待好不好因為就像上一次我們去太平島次長也跟我們去還有處長也跟我們去其實就是很簡單的"},{"start":8588.053,"end":8591.555,"text":"委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇"},{"start":8603.641,"end":8609.869,"text":"所以就這個部分我們希望可以很中立的可以來探討這樣相關的問題因為這一次我們在漢光演習裡面不管是驗證去中心化也好剛剛總長說這個部分已經好幾年了"},{"start":8621.383,"end":8622.503,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":8638.928,"end":8653.265,"text":"在這裡要詢問的一點是我們演習驗證的科目哪裡去了會不會做因為就上一次我們這一次特別請總長很重要的一個原因也是因為部長上任以後面對媒體的詢問曾經說過作戰或者戰術成績的部分是交給參謀總長"},{"start":8659.272,"end":8680.357,"text":"那部長是對於軍政還有軍備的事務會比較專注所以今天漢光四十號演習的專報就這個部分總長可以在百忙當中出席我們希望可以有機會可以讓總長跟我們說明的更清楚一點好不好"},{"start":8681.037,"end":8691.824,"text":"我想可以請總長說明,不過我還是說明一下我們對於戰略層級的部分,我想總長還是屬於我駐軍令的幕僚長,所以應該還是我這邊,那我只是說明說作戰跟戰術層級的"},{"start":8698.087,"end":8707.873,"text":"由總長來負責這我想也是符合國防部組織法相關的一個國防二法以後當然我們軍政軍令還有軍備其實主要的責任都會在國防部長可是今天可以由雙方因為部長剛接任那這麼多的一個新的變革如果有兩位一起來我相信其實會可以更四平八穩讓大家知道所以其實目的很簡單"},{"start":8725.484,"end":8726.085,"text":"二、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":8744.645,"end":8755.338,"text":"取消假想敵這個部分因為在等於是兩棲登陸的聯興還有空降作戰的聯雲操演會被取消那這個部分是真的嗎?"},{"start":8757.51,"end":8778.725,"text":"謝謝委員﹚感謝委員的關心首先說明剛才委員關切的聯興跟聯雲的這兩個科目這個是我們年度都會訓練的一個是空降的還有反空降的聯合作戰的科目另外一個是兩棲作戰的這個確實在今年我們沒有排入到漢光演習裡面"},{"start":8780.346,"end":8801.883,"text":"原因是這兩個都我們颱風防衛作戰是一個首次作戰那這兩個部隊的主要成員是有兩個非常關鍵的戰力一個是我們的陸軍的特戰然後第二個是我們的海軍陸戰隊他們在防衛作戰都有他們特定的任務他們在防衛作戰的時候都有他"},{"start":8803.103,"end":8826.552,"text":"首次作戰的特定任務所以我們這一次要求這些規劃這些的部隊應該要結合防衛作戰因為我們漢光演習為了我們防衛作戰的目的而設定的演習所以說讓他援兵歸援衛這些特戰的兵力應該到他的戰術位置應該去熟悉他的環境應該知道他的指揮管制的關係"},{"start":8827.932,"end":8833.916,"text":"這個我們認為是今年我們訓練的一個要項所以我們做這樣子的規劃跟委員做個說明總長因為到去年之前這個紅軍的科目或者像聯興、聯雲的這個演訓其實都是存在的那聯興跟聯雲就我們因為剛剛有提到他們在首次作戰他們有另外的一個安排要執行的項目如果他們在被取消以後他們會安排執行什麼"},{"start":8857.157,"end":8868.099,"text":"跟委員做個報告,我們在年度的這個聯興跟聯雲並沒有取消,它還是存在的。所以它在其他的時間點還是會去做演練。不過,總長,因為就軍事專家的解釋,陸軍特戰散兵部隊還有海軍陸戰隊在戰時它具有快速投射戰場的能力。"},{"start":8880.402,"end":8900.391,"text":"所以聯興跟聯雲的操演他們年度最重要、最標準、最完整的三軍聯合作戰演練這個其實都是在漢光演習可以一次到位可是我們這一次把它抽出來做防衛型的我們現在想要理解的是因為現在南海、太平島周圍緊張的情勢除了大陸解放軍以外還有其他國家比如說像越南他們也是虎視眈眈"},{"start":8907.634,"end":8925.179,"text":"所以如果說陸戰隊外島的未將恢復作戰能力不再需要藉由這樣大型的演練然後來驗收他們聯合作戰的能力嗎那如果這樣子沒有這樣做的話全部都是手勢未來如果發生作戰要收復外離島的時候我們有能力執行嗎"},{"start":8927.52,"end":8950.487,"text":"因為畢竟我們還有很多的外離島不是只有太平島也不是只有更遠的我們還有周邊的外離島那我們通常像這兩個聯興跟聯雲他主要就是我們歸附作戰的這樣子的一個能力所以他們要怎麼樣做戰力的一個驗證謝謝委員關鍵我們其實在7月初的時候我們的聯興演習"},{"start":8956.989,"end":8976.962,"text":"就會執行完畢所以他的剛才委員所關切的他的任務兩棲作戰的任務他的總能還有他的這些的一個整體的我們並沒有因為沒有納入那個漢光演習而有任何的調整那聯勇演習我們在漢光結束之後也會執行"},{"start":8977.97,"end":9003.175,"text":"所以說這個我們是在一個綜合考量下先把漢光聚焦在因為剛才委員提到一個非常重要的觀點他不僅是我們防衛作戰的這個重要的部隊其實他也還有兼顧其他的他的兩棲作戰的能力還有這個快速這些的空機降的這個能力我們這些的總能我們不會去做他的這個這個做任何的取消"},{"start":9003.675,"end":9008.283,"text":"但是希望在漢光演習的時候聚焦在防衛作戰的任務對"},{"start":9010.331,"end":9016.558,"text":"總長您有一直提到我們現在其實把重心都放在防衛作戰那所以其實像他們不同的一個作戰特性尤其是他們這兩個那他們未來會安排到什麼樣的地方比如說像陸軍特戰其實他們有很多他們都可以做的你是要把這個都做他們的這些相關的業務嗎因為時間的關係"},{"start":9034.876,"end":9035.656,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":9051.849,"end":9052.189,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":9073.132,"end":9083.022,"text":"這是我們今天特別邀請美總長可以來的一個很重要的因素。接下來請總長先回座。我借一點點時間來請教部長。部長,因為您上任以後有提到我們未來國防預算會增加,然後我們會有很多的"},{"start":9096.156,"end":9110.327,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王�"},{"start":9113.47,"end":9136.884,"text":"自殺無人快艇重創俄軍黑海艦隊大型艦艇的戰機所以中科院以代號快起專案科研用了兩億五千萬大概兩億多的經費去研製導控距離60公里的攻擊型無人艇時間的關係今天我先請教一下我們看到烏克蘭"},{"start":9137.805,"end":9144.189,"text":"在他的新型的2024黑海安全論壇上面公開的潛行者五新型的海上無人艇單價大概是兩百多萬就是六萬歐元"},{"start":9153.956,"end":9174.254,"text":"他具備150公斤的彈頭重量,航程高達600公里,最高速度可以達每小時75公里而且烏克蘭現役有實戰的自殺無人快艇,每艘也只要新台幣600萬可是我們中科院現在在科研的一艘高達五、六千萬"},{"start":9175.595,"end":9198.033,"text":"如果再把其他的導控還有他的站台全部放進來其實就不止了比他至少貴了十倍以上今天我們希望把國防預算用在島口上我們有需要可是我們需要用到這麼貴因為他是消耗品他是自殺式的攻擊所以去了就不會回來那你需要用到這麼貴的"},{"start":9199.655,"end":9205.629,"text":"經而去做這樣的科研嗎?他都已經非常成熟了。那這個部分部長是不是有什麼樣的簡單的一個看法?"},{"start":9208.576,"end":9213.741,"text":"我想有一些東西就是說在現貨市場是不是能夠買得到這是一個要考慮的事情部長無人機可以買到這個船艦這個小型的無人艇船體非常簡單這個我們國內很多的船廠都可以做所以我們為什麼要花這麼高的預算"},{"start":9229.537,"end":9231.798,"text":"人等24人、委員王鴻薇等2人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人"},{"start":9241.701,"end":9260.187,"text":"這個人家已經用了而且是非常成熟的然後他只要兩百多萬甚至如果是在現役的只要六百萬我們一艘卻要六千萬這是非常離譜的那你以後量產的時候更不得了而且如果把導控其他的再算進去平均一艘算得出來嗎?院長"},{"start":9265.734,"end":9273.397,"text":"好就這個部分我先提出來我們希望國防部還有中科院可以提供詳細的資料如果不恰當希望你們可以做修正甚至怎麼樣去採購這樣成熟的這樣的一個武器裝備我相信其實並不困難我們無人機比較或者其他的都可以買到了這個不會有困難部長請你們下去做一個檢視跟調整好不好"},{"start":9291.564,"end":9304.033,"text":"好,我們會來進行研議,那我將這個委員的建議來納入我們思考的方式。好,謝謝,會得太離譜了,謝謝。好,謝謝馬文君委員。接下來由沈博洋委員發言。那謝謝,有請這個顧部長跟美總長,謝謝。有請部長還有總長。"},{"start":9327.764,"end":9342.557,"text":"我先問總長我還是認為總長不應該在這裡但是我覺得既然今天總長來了那我就問一些因為我知道有些事情不適合在這個國會的殿堂那因為我有看到這一次演習的時候"},{"start":9344.698,"end":9370.208,"text":"總長自己有提到就是說因為我覺得這個並不是細節而是一個管理的方式那管理的方式我覺得是蠻重要的那有特別提到由上對下的一個這個溝通的觀念就是直接說目的是什麼然後漸漸取代由下至上逐級提報修正的一個陋習然後說這樣是可以去減輕部隊的一個負擔跟行政的作業那不知道總長是不是能夠在這邊跟國人說明一下這整個的精神"},{"start":9371.583,"end":9389.164,"text":"公務委員報告其實我們委員應該也了解所謂的一個任務是指揮的概念其實任務是指揮非常重要的第一件事情就是能夠把你的意圖還有你的這個希望你的部署達到的以及他對於"},{"start":9390.285,"end":9414.39,"text":"我執行完這件工作之後應該要達到的一個預期的一個成果要能夠清楚的轉達讓你的部署知道然後藉由他們完成所謂方法跟手段我覺得這個是一個我們現階段在推動這一個工作非常重要的所以我覺得我也必須成為我是一個總長我必須要讓我的部署"},{"start":9414.91,"end":9435.051,"text":"為什麼我們會有所謂的高階幹部的任務式的做圖上兵推其實就是把這些的作戰的這些的方法去做一個非常深入的探討讓下級的指揮官已經了解我們的意圖以這樣子推動事情會比較快速"},{"start":9436.493,"end":9452.368,"text":"謝謝總長因為我覺得這個部長上任之後呢也是很著重在於溝通的成本不要一直提高所以能夠直接的讓我們的一個規劃讓指揮官知道讓這一個士兵知道那這樣其實是更直接的一個方式那很感謝這個總長的說明那總長請回接下來我都是要問部長相關的問題"},{"start":9453.849,"end":9480.547,"text":"好,那這個呢就是部長之前也有提到就是說我們盡量能讓行政負擔減輕我們之前有問到休假什麼等等之類的那這一次我們可以看到外媒的報導就是說這個無劇本不作秀的一個方式獲得基層的一個肯定那也是增強國人的信心我覺得國際上反而都是對這個是好評那所以呢我覺得更進一步我們想要去看的事情是說就是接下來除了最後一個我寫的這邊國際支持之外"},{"start":9482.208,"end":9506.67,"text":"因為我們會有更多的跨部會整合的狀況以及一些hybrid warfare就是這種新型的這種敵情威脅的映出所以等一下想要就教於部長就是針對這一些方面我們接下來的規劃是什麼那我第一個部分就是在新型的這個敵情威脅太陽我這邊想要講的是因為剛好這一次呢就是中國在國台辦還有在國安部、公安部的這一個"},{"start":9507.27,"end":9534.36,"text":"在記者會的時候規定了一個台獨分子的一個規定那這個看起來本來是跟外交部有關因為譬如說海外假設你今天被認定台獨分子啊會不會被引渡啊等等之類的但因為國防部接下來可能也要面對就好像菲律賓遇到的這種法律戰的狀況所以呢在接下來的這一個過程當中我們接下來對國人法律相關的說明這一個方面國防部有沒有可能來做想問一下部長"},{"start":9535.782,"end":9549.314,"text":"國防部應該是如果就因為國防部畢竟是在軍事面向上面要做好這個相關的論述那所以國防部在就這個"},{"start":9552.94,"end":9555.282,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":9573.672,"end":9595.283,"text":"甚至應該是到國安層級來進行跨部會對國際也好、對內也好做一個參與跨部會來做好溝通。對,因為我覺得可以很明確地感受到他們今年整體的目標都是用法律的方式。這個說明其實有些跟國安有關,有些跟國防有關,有些又跟外交有關。"},{"start":9597.365,"end":9623.385,"text":"關於這一個跨部會的整合我當然還有一個細節想要問但最右邊這一個方式是因為我們也時常遇到一個狀況就是因為畢竟我們現在有越來越多的這些士兵或者我們的一些指揮官到美國做訓練那從美國做訓練回來以後其實會帶回來很多的經驗但是我們也發現一個狀況就是說這些人很容易可能都被叫回去常常是做翻譯的工作因為他們英文太好了因為他們在那邊已經有太多的溝通"},{"start":9623.985,"end":9639.693,"text":"所以我覺得這一件事情當然我覺得因為他們畢竟有那麼多的經驗不應該只是英文那台灣其實英文好的人也所在多有那另外有一個情形呢我就覺得也是可能可以跟中研院等等討論看看就是不聯網的這些翻譯的系統"},{"start":9640.493,"end":9669.34,"text":"雖然之前在中委院開發的系統是有被批評但是不聯網的翻譯的系統直接翻譯的系統取代人為的這一個可能可以考慮看看那這樣不但可以減輕這些人還要不斷的去當翻譯的這個能量或許也可以讓他們回歸他們從美國帶回來的經驗所以這邊就是給部長一個小小的建議我跟委員報告我們現在越來越重視這些流外的這些人回來"},{"start":9670.2,"end":9688.894,"text":"那跟委員報告因為就我的理解就是說他們都要經歷一定的我們叫經管就是說他要去歷練所以我現在很重視就是說他們不要因為他們去外面學習回來之後他們經管的這個部分會欠缺"},{"start":9689.634,"end":9708.625,"text":"所以比如說他們要進入紫參、要進入戰爭學院,現在就要結合,就是說他甚至在國外就可以去考,考回來馬上就可以銜接上去。然後他的指揮官的這個歷練,那也要來進行。像這樣子的話,好好的來運用的話,"},{"start":9710.032,"end":9724.595,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":9736.098,"end":9744.522,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員"},{"start":9754.727,"end":9777.279,"text":"推動全民國防教育、增進全民防衛意識、凝蓄民心士氣、塑造有力的戰略環境。最後一句話叫做獲取的訊息主導的地位。我覺得訊息主導地位這一點當然聽起來是比較模糊。但是或許在蠻多狀況我會認為真的有時候有必要會有一些主導的地位。我下面用一個很簡單的例子。"},{"start":9777.879,"end":9797.257,"text":"這個例子跟中國沒有關係,它完全就只是一個單純的投書而已。但這個投書裡面,記者報導就講說中國要把戰機改成無人機,會消耗我們的愛國者飛彈等等之類的。當然其實,間期要去把它做改造,然後它還需要跑道等等之類的,它其實有很多難以達成的事情。"},{"start":9798.038,"end":9825.063,"text":"但是像這種新聞一出來以後我們要怎麼避免這種又再配句擷取去做一些文章然後反而造成國人的恐慌說哇那接下來會不會無人機壓境啊我們的愛國者飛彈怎麼辦啊它顯然就是一個會對我們國防信心會動搖的一則報導那這個報導可能就只是一個專家的一個評論那這個評論我們以國防部來講在訊息主導地位的時候有沒有什麼比較好的方式可以跟國人說明就是"},{"start":9825.583,"end":9835.17,"text":"那這件事我們應該要怎麼去跟公眾做溝通?跟委員報告,這個不禁又讓我想起,我就從國安會過來。"},{"start":9837.185,"end":9866.623,"text":"我們現在確實要配合政治、經濟、外交跟相關的這些手段來塑造有利的一個戰略環境,獲取一個訊息主導的一個地位。這個工作應該是跨部會,事實上是在國安層級裡面來處理這個部分。我大概現在是在國防部,但是有機會私下再跟委員做一個中文的說明。"},{"start":9866.963,"end":9891.568,"text":"沒有問題,因為有時候就是會遇到這樣的一個狀況,比如說群組裡面開始有人截圖啊,在說這個無人機要壓境啊,那反而有時候像這種新聞一出來以後,常常第一個被訪問的反而是像我,然後就是被記者訪問,那我就反而要稍微講一下就是說無人機改造的這個過程可能是什麼,它可能還需要更多的成本,所以有可能有不可行的地方等等之類的,但感覺好像我們好像不太像是闢謠單位,雖然記者會問我們啦,"},{"start":9893.368,"end":9906.867,"text":"所以我們要配合進行這個反制任職專案,特別是在軍事消息的這一面,有一些真為混雜,有一些是假的,那要如何我們政政局都要負責來協同來做。"},{"start":9909.33,"end":9925.4,"text":"對因為接下來像會有因為有時候他只是台灣的專家可能受訪啊這個有時候算小事因為只要澄清一下或者說討論一下我覺得都是健康的討論但怕就是怕說比如說境外勢力他去見縫查證他把裡面的話做曲解然後再做成圖卡然後在爛群組大量散播"},{"start":9925.64,"end":9926.08,"text":"我們要預判,然後要主導,這個是"},{"start":9945.741,"end":9964.721,"text":"一個關鍵的,然後所以漢光我們也需要避免被負面的訊息給遮蓋,所以我們要主動出擊然後來說明,對外來說明,像譬如說我們從事這樣子比較實戰化的這種演訊,一定也會發生一些狀況,譬如說"},{"start":9966.062,"end":9983.816,"text":"那胡裝儀容不整等等,或者是臨時出現一些不預期的狀況,這些我們也都要讓國能夠理解,這才是真實的。那過多的表演性質,好像照劇本的,然後大家就這樣子演一遍,然後這樣好像就"},{"start":9985.217,"end":10012.489,"text":"就顯得是無事但其實是沒有真正達到實戰化訓練但是達到實戰化訓練就會有一些風險就risk那我們把這些又要做一些降風險的一些工作所以這個事實上這個中間要取得一個平衡但總之實戰化訓練是一個核心的目標沒錯謝謝部長希望這個國軍然後越來越好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝總長謝謝主席好我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":10408.328,"end":10412.809,"text":"我們繼續開會接下來請洪森漢委員上台質詢上一次總長來立院報告其實已經20多年前所以今天我想要請顧部長跟梅總長請顧部長、梅總長"},{"start":10444.871,"end":10463.539,"text":"是,黃委員好部長當然我是樂見這個看到國防部裡面去貫徹部長跟總長的分工所以我接下來的問題當然我請兩位一起上台但也可以依照你們職權上的分工來進行回答那我主要我想要先跟這個國防部來討論關於漢光演習的部分"},{"start":10467.34,"end":10486.874,"text":"其實我們都知道其實這個火力展示的目的其實是為了向民眾來展現我們的國防戰力我自己認為這也是全民國防教育的一環這個是要展現我們好的一部分但是其實演習的目的是要來檢驗戰力"},{"start":10489.229,"end":10490.27,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":10511.104,"end":10525.92,"text":"可以看一下螢幕上面的當然這是2019的漢光那如果是用演習的思維來說的話照理來說我們其實應該是要把它做分散的設置包括偽裝的陣地來去處理這個問題可是這個狀況其實我們看到這其實比較像是擺拍"},{"start":10528.152,"end":10529.672,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等23人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等25"},{"start":10550.117,"end":10570.591,"text":"所以我自己很樂見看到今年國防部標榜我們的漢光演習希望能夠所謂來真的那來真的這三個字講得簡單可是要做起來並不是一件這麼容易的事情所以我也今天也有一些媒體朋友在現場其實如果當我們要來真的時候可能就會有看到"},{"start":10571.351,"end":10597.998,"text":"我們在民眾在路上會看到可能一些服裝儀容不一定這麼整齊啊甚至會維修拋錨輪車的這些狀況都可能會發生因為這就是所謂來真的那我自己認為這也才是演習的目的因為真的打仗沒有在怕衣服髒或者我們只做這些面子工程那可是接下來我想要問也問國防部我們未來有沒有擴大能夠將演習跟活力展示徹底分開辦的這樣的規劃"},{"start":10604.131,"end":10619.96,"text":"委員您的意見有關展示對於不管是剛您提到的對於這個民眾的信心然後對我們的把我們實際的一些的武器裝備籌貨之後展現給國人這個還是有它的必要性當然"},{"start":10621.642,"end":10638.804,"text":"對,這個部分我們會有這個今年我們可能這個部分目前因為漢光演習是從去年12月份就開始規劃了然後我們所有的也是做一個延續那您的建議我們會會把考量如何去做在"},{"start":10639.665,"end":10666.205,"text":"在符合在單位的一個任務的狀況還有一個我們時間的配當展示給國人還是有它的必要性。總長我的意思不是說今天我只獨尊演習然後我的活力展示沒有必要我的意思並不是這樣而是怎麼讓這兩件事情之間邏輯不要互相的干擾影響到這兩件事情本身的效益是的那所以我覺得如果真的要做那乾脆就更擴大的分開去處理"},{"start":10667.421,"end":10691.131,"text":"那既可以達到我們希望演習的功能在火力展示要讓大家對國防部有信心的部分我覺得也可以進行可是他邏輯不要衝突這是重點是的 這個我們會把它納入的這個做完整的規劃畢竟我們後面的一個戰力的提升新獲得的這些的裝備如何展示給國人讓國人有信心這個我們一定會把它納入我們的非常重要的考量"},{"start":10691.411,"end":10720.308,"text":"好接下來我還要繼續我想往下細看其實我們都知道目前漢光其實還是一個所謂計劃統裁的概念簡單來說他還是有一定的劇本啦那比方說可能前三天是紅軍佔優勢之後藍軍反攻可是我們看到其實2023年的長青十三號的操演裡面其實已經看到在這個計劃統裁裡面已經開始有實施所謂一般的這個我們一般叫做可能叫自由統裁的部分已經在這裡面其實有看到了"},{"start":10720.936,"end":10749.366,"text":"那我們未來會擴大自由統裁的部分嗎?跟委員報告自由統裁其實最主要就是考驗我們這些的指揮官他能夠去臨機的判斷然後下達他的一個這個指導然後再由統裁部看他的這個作為這個確實是一個在實兵對抗的時候非常好的一種執行的模式但是總長我這邊當然也有幾個部分因為其實有很多不同的專業者來給我們一些建議"},{"start":10750.646,"end":10773.279,"text":"他們也提醒如果要完成自由統裁其實有幾個重要的前提第一個是要有完善的指管系統是的那比方說我們現在看到新加坡的星光部隊他們的指管層級其實是可以到陸軍的單兵他們其實把他們GPS打開以後他們指揮官就可以非常非常清楚地掌握到他們部隊每一個甚至到單兵裡面的位置那這個指揮系統其實可以一清二楚"},{"start":10773.999,"end":10800.471,"text":"可是我們其實陸軍的為了要落實我們的指管到連或者是排其實我們之前委託了中科院的睿子專案但這個專案現在卻被審計部認為效能過低甚至評測有嚴重的延誤無法掌握部隊位置無法及時應變所以變成最後還是只能照劇本演練的這個狀況所以我想請問國防部這部分我們有沒有改進的計劃"},{"start":10807.218,"end":10821.712,"text":"市長,剛才您提到新加坡的這個例子,其實我們現階段確實在朝這個方向在努力中,然後瑞子系統我等一下請陸軍司令部來去做一個說明,但是"},{"start":10823.281,"end":10848.079,"text":"這個方向我們沒有變而且我們可能會有一些的成果但是我們現在問題是我們的準備包括我們的做法上面要怎麼真的趨向這個地方所以我現在看到的反而是如果從睿智系統這個做法來看的話現在反而被審計部做這樣子的評價那國防部怎麼樣去處理這個部分或有沒有什麼改善的做法"},{"start":10849.376,"end":10866.267,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們這個睿智系統的這個建案的這個部分我們應該是說他還他可以有改善的一個地方"},{"start":10867.011,"end":10884.616,"text":"那到達改善的一個程度的時候呢,我們會把它納入。但是我想我們也會有這個完善的一個指管系統的一個方案。"},{"start":10886.136,"end":10896.943,"text":"這些部分我認為可能不適宜在公開的場合做過多的一個說明所以現在就這個"},{"start":10898.735,"end":10920.996,"text":"等於是說我們會把這個執管的這個系統構建到一個我們認為完善的不然我這邊當然是一個提醒啦當然如果有不適合在國會這邊公開講的部分當然我們也尊重那只是就是這部分當然怎麼建立執管系統是大家其實提醒的一個重點那第二個重點其實就是說也有很多人建議是不是要把這個紅藍軍改成"},{"start":10923.078,"end":10951.577,"text":"A、B軍意思是說其實我們現在在我們演習的劇本裡面紅軍其實就是進攻方藍軍其實就是防守方那可是這個紅跟藍又有他的政治意涵在裡面所以常常就會後面有些政治因素比方說如果從紅藍軍的角度來說對我們來說那這個藍軍如果落敗那這個大家壓力就很大就會有所謂的包袱所以有人建議說是不是直接乾脆把紅藍改成A、B就讓他在這背後"},{"start":10951.817,"end":10953.738,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":10973.404,"end":10982.052,"text":"委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇"},{"start":10983.953,"end":10992.917,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等"},{"start":11006.584,"end":11013.07,"text":"防手防腳,更不敢像是真實的演練的狀況。黃委員,我這邊向委員報告。委員剛剛的指導也是我們在努力的一個方向。我就兩點來說明。第一點,我們過去的這個雷射模擬接戰系統,它的確沒有辦法同步地跟上我們部隊組織變裝的調整。比如現在已經變成聯兵營。"},{"start":11027.924,"end":11028.985,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":11053.387,"end":11082.51,"text":"我想跟國防部說我剛才這幾個當然都是很多專業者給我們的建議這建議當然目的是都未來都希望能夠我們讓自由統裁的部分能夠再擴大讓我們的演練更趨近於真實讓大家的這個軍力真的能夠被解放出來潛力真的被解放出來的目的所以以上我想這幾個建議還是希望國防部可以帶回去來去做參考那接下來我還是要討論到關於卷改的部分我要請國安局的副局長上台黃副局長吧"},{"start":11090.049,"end":11095.648,"text":"副委員我現在投影片上面是國安會跟國安局主管的眷舍"},{"start":11097.05,"end":11124.593,"text":"當然我們在討論建設議題的時候我們首先需要去確認建設現任居住者的身份不能夠說很多軍人的老前輩他可能已經搬走或其他人住在裡面可是他在這個狀況下還能夠領到補助款這當然就會對於其他的老前輩來說變成是一個蠻不公平的事情所以我們這邊其實照理來說其實國安局應該有兩大資料第一個是配住的公文書第二個是居住者的軍階這些資料照理來說應該國安局都有"},{"start":11126.493,"end":11142.822,"text":"三、審查本院委員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等"},{"start":11154.068,"end":11177.407,"text":"不管是在國安局或國防部之間這些相關的重要的資訊我想照理來說都應該是國安局把它準備好的我們必須掌握誰是合格的居住者並確認他的軍階我們才有辦法給予相對應正確的合適的補助這是重要的事情所以我剛才說這兩大資料一個是配注公文書跟居住者的軍階這應該都是既有的文件"},{"start":11179.449,"end":11186.435,"text":"都應該妥適的提供給國防部啊我們才有辦法進行後續的工作啊這部分的進度"},{"start":11187.389,"end":11214.038,"text":"副局長,現在我們進行到哪裡?我要跟委員報告,我們目前沒有納入的有三個村。那這三個村的部分,我剛剛報告了,中校新村部分還在清查中,因為住戶的一個配合度不是很高,甚至我們沒辦法取得那個…這不是配合度的問題,這你要住在裡面,你就應該相對應,包括這也是照理說國安局應該直接掌握的文件啊。"},{"start":11215.679,"end":11242.681,"text":"因為當時的配住是民國58年還有64年那麼長久的時間原始的資料有些住戶都已經不見了副局長我們這幾份資料如果沒有辦法掌握清楚的時候我們後續的問題就很難處理就容易有糾紛大家今天在國會討論就很容易落入空中樓閣這是我們現在今天為什麼要在這邊很具體的要求這些相關剛剛兩大資料的文件"},{"start":11243.649,"end":11245.216,"text":"我認為國安局請一個月內"},{"start":11246.55,"end":11275.473,"text":"告訴我們進度到底你把這個資料具體的轉交給國防部到什麼程度那假設還沒轉交呢你接下來打算該怎麼辦你要拿出具體的辦法不然我們接下來處理卷改的問題只會衍生非常非常多的爭議這不是我們樂見的事情我們希望這個相關的採取處理都能夠順利把握這些讓這些軍人的老前輩們拿他應有的權利這是我們期望的事情但我不希望變成行政端變成是爭議的來源啊可以嗎"},{"start":11275.993,"end":11276.013,"text":"請顧部長、參謀總長"},{"start":11310,"end":11323.49,"text":"總長好,還有我們部長好。那今年的漢光演習呢,比較不同的是,過去是五天四夜,現在呢改成八天七夜嘛。那對,改成八天七夜,郭部長應該知道。"},{"start":11324.531,"end":11352.617,"text":"那上次呢我問邱部長的時候那就講說呢我們要增加很多跟聯軍演訓的部分那我想要請您再針對這個部分再說明一下在五天四夜延長到八天七夜有哪一些科目是增加的當然如果涉及機密的部分可以不說沒有關係但是我們希望知道說增加了這幾個天數那我們是要增加哪一部分的一些演習又可以達到什麼樣的目的"},{"start":11353.26,"end":11358.036,"text":"我想詳細的由總長來報告不過跟您說明一下八天企業是指那個電腦"},{"start":11360.542,"end":11381.916,"text":"指揮所的那個電腦輔志指揮所的這個演練然後時兵的這個部分是五天四夜那但是那個但是顧部長因為上一次我問邱部長的時候他確實有說演練的項目是有增加的所以我您回去看過去的這個影像的話我只是說明一下有兩個兩種的知道知道這我理解請說"},{"start":11383.917,"end":11399.357,"text":"委員好,我來說明一下我們在今年從5天4夜延長到8天7夜的所謂的電腦輔助指揮所演練因為今年的威脅,其實共軍有可能由嚴轉戰的這個狀況"},{"start":11402.13,"end":11428.901,"text":"由嚴轉戰,你們的判斷是有這樣的可能性?是,從前年的他們的聯合軍事行動到近期的所謂的立建2024A其實甚至他們在現階段在我們周邊的這些的戰備警巡其實就是很多的專家學者其實都有提出來說是一種溫水煮青蛙或者說是一直不斷的切香腸的戰術"},{"start":11430.121,"end":11455.895,"text":"其實我們逐漸的看出來說他具備了所謂的由演轉戰的這個能力所以我們這一次在漢光演習的時候我們就著重在幾個重點第一個國軍如何從灰色地帶能夠快速的轉換成為備戰這個階段我們大概就增加了一到兩日的一個操演的過程這個是指實際操演不是指電腦模擬"},{"start":11457.135,"end":11481.161,"text":"電腦模擬的部分電腦模擬其實有更多的一些的可以進入到實際的一個狀況然後接下來另外一個也就是說我們除了一個從灰色地帶進到防衛作戰的這一個演練是一個我們增加的第二個我們如何快速的讓國軍從一個在平時的狀態轉換成為暫時的狀態"},{"start":11486.242,"end":11507.399,"text":"從前我們的演習可能是直接進入所謂的這個暫時的狀態就開始執行後面的但這一個變成我們國軍的轉換是非常重要的所以這也是我們演練的重點因為我們國軍一般來講我們是講的是這個這個有沒有包含是義務役的部分的轉換"},{"start":11509.909,"end":11534.181,"text":"國軍因為國軍我們分成義務役跟志願役嘛對不對那國軍整體我們都是一起講的所以我想跟您確認一下您剛說快速的這個轉換的過程當中是只有包含我們的志願役的士官兵還是也包含了義務役的部分委員這個裡面區分兩部分第一個部分就是我們現在的所謂的常備部隊也就是我們平時所"},{"start":11536.516,"end":11537.376,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":11551.901,"end":11562.144,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":11571.886,"end":11594.872,"text":"OK了解了那還有其他部分嗎?完成這個部分之後我們就按照第三個重點就是按照共軍的攻台的可能行動而且隨著他的一個戰力不斷的這個這個增長我們調整了我們很多的作戰的一些的思維所以我們在這一次我們為什麼要八天七夜"},{"start":11595.672,"end":11616.695,"text":"用八天七夜才有足夠的時間把每一個階段能夠非常扎實的去做一個驗證當然我們很支持那再來想問一個就是說先前我也問過邱部長同樣的問題是在這一次的漢光演習裡面是不是也增加了與盟軍共同怎麼樣快速協防的相關項目"},{"start":11619.226,"end":11645.143,"text":"方委員這個可能我們都不宜在公開場合可是上次是邱普長講的你們這樣子上次不是我上次我想這個部分確實不宜在公開的場合好啦那我跟您說一下好了你們這樣很可愛喔因為上次是我問他說為什麼要改八天七耶然後他在這個備詢台上說那是因為要增加跟盟軍的演練所以其實是你們說的不是我"},{"start":11645.543,"end":11669.403,"text":"我是問問題的人那你們是回答問題的人但沒有關係不宜說的都不宜說但上次我從質詢台裡面聽到你們備詢台上面的長官們說過了所以我只是再確認一次而已但既然這次改成不宜說那就不說了好嗎沒有要為難大家的意思那接下來我想問一下我們的國軍是為哪一個國家而戰"},{"start":11671.98,"end":11696.228,"text":"這應該是部長我們來回答的為中華民國而戰為中華民國而戰對不對可是問題是我們的賴清德賴總統突然說中華民國也是台獨那請問我們可以解釋說我們的國軍也是為了台獨而戰嗎?能做這樣的解釋嗎?我想每一個國軍都為國家效忠為人民效忠那我們的國家是中華民國還是台獨呢?"},{"start":11697.481,"end":11717.243,"text":"我們是中華民國啊。我想總統的意思是說,在中國的眼裡面,你捍衛中華民國的主權也是一種態度。我完全懂。但是我在這裡我也要特別說,中華人民共和國說了什麼是他中華民國家的事。"},{"start":11717.944,"end":11742.239,"text":"我們中華民國說了什麼是我們中華民國的事而且我相信我們的國軍也有這樣的氣魄要一起為中華民國而戰我相信是這樣的我們的歷史我們的精神我們對國家的熱愛我覺得我們的所有的國軍全民的同胞所有中華民國的國民都會一致的來支持但是中華人民共和國他認為是怎樣那是他家的事"},{"start":11742.779,"end":11753.012,"text":"我覺得我們不需要聽他,難道他叫我們去吃屎,我們要吃屎啊?誰理他啊?所以我這裡要講,來我們看下一張所以過去包含我們顏德發部長、包含我們邱國正部長、包含我們像吳斯懷將軍、馮世寬他們都講了"},{"start":11762.122,"end":11783.733,"text":"國軍不為台獨而戰。中華民國國軍是為中華民國而戰。我想要請問一下顧部長您對這件事情的看法可不可以重述一次讓我們知道我們新任的國防部的部長對這個事情您的具體的態度是什麼?我想每一個國軍都會國家效忠、為人民效忠。"},{"start":11784.113,"end":11804.335,"text":"那中華民國現在有效的統治區域就是臺澎金馬2300萬的人民他們一定會為2300萬人民的現存的民主自由生活方式而戰那我們的首要目標也是基於備戰才能避戰我們一定要維護臺海的區域和平穩定這就是我們現在的基本的態度"},{"start":11804.995,"end":11826.974,"text":"所以中華人民共和國的說法,我們中華民國不需要採納,不需要相信,不需要去把中華人民共和國的話塞到我們自己台灣人、中華民國人的嘴巴裡。但是總統的意思應該就是在講說中共的態度它其實就是如此,就是你主張為中華民國而戰。"},{"start":11829.496,"end":11854.795,"text":"在他的眼裏面,因為他剛剛發佈了對於台獨分子的這個制裁的22條的意見那在這個意見裏面,所以總統才會解釋就是說你主張為中華民國而戰在中華人民共和國的眼中裏面他也是一種台獨好,當然啦,我希望因為您也不是賴總統所以我不想逼迫您我知道您沒有辦法代表他發言但是我要再一次強調"},{"start":11855.976,"end":11876.885,"text":"中華民國就是中華民國我們的國軍是為中華民國而戰我們國軍不是為台獨而戰中華人民共和國要說中華民國是誰是台獨不是台獨那是他家的事那不是我們家的事我們就是為了我們的國家奮勇向前而且我相信我們所有的國軍弟兄我相信我們的國防部長我相信我們的參謀總長都是秉持同樣的態度"},{"start":11883.087,"end":11909.459,"text":"只有這樣我們中華民國才能夠團結在一起所以不管是過去的顏德發不管是過去的邱國正以及我相信顧部長您的想法跟過去或許在做了部長之後會有一些轉變我們希望看到的是這八天七夜的演習裡面我們所有的國軍一起努力為中華民國而戰必戰是最優先的我們不希望看到兩岸之間生靈塗炭"},{"start":11910.74,"end":11935.131,"text":"但我們也要準備好,如果今天真的發生任何狀況的時候,我們是有在準備好的情況之下,能夠保家衛國,可以嗎?是,我想每一個國軍都願意為生活在這一片土地的2300萬人民,來他的民主自由生活方式的一個維繫,來有效的防衛,進行這個鞏固國家安全。謝謝部長,謝謝參謀總長。謝謝。"},{"start":11941.834,"end":11963.71,"text":"好,接下來請林益君委員上台諮詢。謝謝主席,有請顧部長。請顧部長。"},{"start":11972.904,"end":11993.098,"text":"是林委員好顧部長好本次漢光四十號演習有幾個比較重大的變革包括取消攻擊軍的角色還有取消預演以及演習的時間和地點不受限在取消預演和取消演習時間的地點方面大概可以預期會有不少的混亂和錯誤擺出的"},{"start":11995.259,"end":12003.526,"text":"人等24人、委員王鴻薇等2人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等"},{"start":12011.172,"end":12012.894,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":12028.53,"end":12031.511,"text":"韓官演習時兵操演的部分取消了攻擊軍的角色。那請問部長這有兩個問題。第一個是,時兵對抗演習的目的是分出勝負還是考核野戰部隊整體的作戰表現,並且驗證計劃在限地實施時有無問題和效果。"},{"start":12049.96,"end":12076.535,"text":"我想應該講漢光這個實兵就實兵驗證的這個層級就是要來驗證實戰訓練的成果然後來誘導這個三軍的各級部隊來執行聯合作戰計畫的這個演練那所以目的當然就是要檢驗這個平時訓練的成果然後能不能夠遂行這一個聯合作戰計畫這樣"},{"start":12078.476,"end":12084.703,"text":"那第二個問題就是你覺得電腦兵推跟實兵對抗演習是否可以互相取代呢?"},{"start":12085.271,"end":12106.34,"text":"沒有,這個各有各的功能,各有各的功能。這個電腦兵棋的推演是很重要的,因為它是到一個甚至對象,這到戰役層級我們來做。那一般的士兵演練我們是到了這個履級以下,戰術層級的,應該是這樣講。"},{"start":12109.808,"end":12136.894,"text":"過去我們漢光演習其實時兵操演的都有紅藍軍的對抗嘛最後其實到時候最被詬病的就是每次都是照著藍軍必勝的特定的劇本在走然後表演的性質比較濃厚但北席認為其實這次把攻擊軍的這個角色拿掉恐怕會有一點失去演練的這個整個意義因為時兵對抗演習的目的其實不在勝負而是在於驗證兵推時"},{"start":12137.794,"end":12146.52,"text":"人等24人、委員王鴻薇等2人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等"},{"start":12165.151,"end":12166.753,"text":"國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條之一條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":12189.975,"end":12211.449,"text":"我們實兵對抗的操演,我們一直都有,三軍都有,包含剛剛紅委員所提到的陸軍長青操演,他都有。第二點跟您報告,漢光的實兵,他主要包含部長剛剛所說明的,來驗證我們的實戰化訓練,他最重要是驗證我的孤彎作戰計畫。"},{"start":12212.99,"end":12239.318,"text":"那我們這次只有採取少部分海上跟空中兵力當任假設敵那傳統以往他都用特戰部隊或者像總長所講陸戰隊來擔任一個假設敵但是他自己在戰時任務我們要利用這段時間讓他在他的作戰任務他的作戰地境來磨練他的作戰計畫同時讓官兵守忍他的作戰場域所以我們基於這個原因他是跟沒有事"},{"start":12239.938,"end":12259.345,"text":"我們傳統這種對抗性的演練在這邊特別跟委員做個說明年度的對抗性演練還是會存在的只是我們這一次漢光要讓所有的部隊特別是地面部隊讓他所有的部隊都落實就是說除了有必要的病例之外呢"},{"start":12260.206,"end":12263.809,"text":"其他都要落實演練自己的防衛作戰任務,讓他熟悉這個戰場環境跟戰鬥手續。"},{"start":12279.242,"end":12301.579,"text":"對,像剛才說的長青操演這個這個對抗演習之外其實年度漢光其實其實他是非常是國軍很難得的模擬解放軍陸海空三七聯合進犯的一個大規模的演習所以其實部長可能是還是要考慮一下是不是要保留一下那個實兵對抗啊其實我本身也我也覺得我有一個建議啦如果考量到我們的"},{"start":12302.7,"end":12307.281,"text":"行特部還有戰車登陸大隊這些需要熟悉戰時的任務的話其實也可以縮小紅軍的規模譬如旅籍的規模擔任紅軍的時候是不是可以改成營籍還是排籍每年輪流這樣擔任紅軍其實這樣從聯兵裡可以抽掉一些單位出來一起扮演紅軍其實這樣在實兵驗證還有熟悉戰時任務上其實都是可以兼顧到的所以部長的話看要不要回去研議看看"},{"start":12332.065,"end":12340.09,"text":"因為我覺得兵棋推演還有軍事上面的演習的輸贏其實不重要實際上對手能力越強其實越能磨練出我們的戰鬥力而且越困難的處境想定更能激發指揮官將資源發揮到最大的效果所以北席這邊其實對部長領帶領國軍改革還有把所有的訓練推向實戰化其實有很高的期待希望我們能夠做到"},{"start":12359.801,"end":12362.604,"text":"被戰而不畏戰、人戰而不求戰。謝謝委員的指導。現在我還有一個問題想要請教部長。今年漢光演習的時序是什麼?你說時間嗎?不是的,時序是什麼?從戰力保準、整體防空、海上聯合結集到這個國土防衛作戰。"},{"start":12384.829,"end":12408.927,"text":"那這次漢光演習雖然沒有納入戰備跑道的起降,但本行是要特別提醒一下部長,就是戰力保存的階段,我們空軍的戰力保存成效,其實是有關作戰的人力。要是喪失了空優,其實台海防衛會陷入非常不利的局面。所以請教部長說目前我們空軍戰力保存有哪些手段呢?這個是不是請空軍人員?"},{"start":12412.984,"end":12433.407,"text":"委員好 我是空軍參謀長曹敬平有關戰力保存的手段其實分成不同的針對不同的載具有不同的方法包括空中的飛行器還有機場的分散部署我們其他還有包括地面的防衛部隊戰術雷達它都有不同的方式在執行按照我們戰術目的來分別規劃"},{"start":12435.288,"end":12461.579,"text":"其實共軍很了解空優的重要性所以我們機場跑道都是共軍第一打擊的目標所以我們現在算出他們可以算出每一個波次要用多少的飛彈去打所以才就會癱瘓我們的整個機場所以現在使用公路的戰備跑道是空軍重要的戰力保存的手段那部長知道我們這五條公路的戰備跑道過去有幾次的起降演習嗎?"},{"start":12466.543,"end":12473.609,"text":"五個戰備道過去在加東跟民雄曾經做過兩次,其他的各段分別做過一次。"},{"start":12477.457,"end":12502.017,"text":"所以其實空軍的戰力保存是非常重要的所以每次戰備道的開設其實很不容易也不方便但戰備道的起降其實如果沒有納入國軍的演習那這樣的話五條戰備道過去如果做只做過七次的起降的演習在每一個戰備道大約就是只有一次還是兩次而已這樣看來都是停留在驗證的階段這樣我講應該沒有錯吧"},{"start":12504.719,"end":12531.381,"text":"報告我來補充報告一下其實戰備道我們一般大家一般比較常接觸的就聽到公路戰備道其實戰備道有兩個等級一個叫做機場戰備道一個叫公路戰備道所以在每個機場裡面也有戰備道的設置那我們平常為了要保持熟練在機場戰備道的部分盡量多演練但是在公路戰備道部分盡量減少擾民的程度因為他影響程度比較大"},{"start":12531.781,"end":12535.483,"text":"所會配合每年的這演習的構想按照需求來規劃。其實我這樣看起降機種跟數量其實有發現到每次的起降演習基本上都是三種型號還有主力戰機各一架還有再加上鷹眼的預演機但是我們空軍未來可能會有超過200架的F16還有130架的IDF跟50幾架的幻象"},{"start":12555.214,"end":12575.591,"text":"那三型的主力戰機總共有380架左右。如果台海發生衝突的時候,空軍要做戰力保存的話,這五條戰備道會只有15架的戰機起降嗎?這樣空軍的戰力保存實戰化是不是有很大的進步呢?有很大進步空間需要改善呢?"},{"start":12576.291,"end":12603.325,"text":"是的委員您說的這個計算的依據看起來是有道理但是呢其實戰力保存的手段不是都是完全靠公路戰備道來執行有其他方式來配套那公路戰備道是可以提供他在必要時候做戰機起降跟必要的整補來支應後續的作戰謝謝委員指導好謝謝還是希望能夠做好整個可能性的整個推演然後維持國防戰力保護我們台灣人民的安全好謝謝"},{"start":12610.517,"end":12613.68,"text":"接下來請翁曉琳委員上台質詢請部長還有梅總長"},{"start":12633.103,"end":12633.423,"text":"國軍因應作戰的因果"},{"start":12651.498,"end":12674.549,"text":"則應處理的一些作為。那部長您是管政策,那總長則是管作戰。所以在這裡我想請問總長,如果在戰時發生了有關兵、巨戰、怯戰、逃亡、抗命等等這些犯罪行為,那國防部要怎麼處理?還有或是這個作戰總部這邊要怎麼處理?"},{"start":12676.782,"end":12699.842,"text":"委員好,謝謝您的關切。就我個人其實是受部長的命令來執行做這些的軍事指揮的任務。那我們在如果說是有官兵所謂的您所談到的所謂未戰的這樣子的狀況,其實我相信在戰場這麼嚴峻可能也是以"},{"start":12701.152,"end":12703.894,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":12728.57,"end":12746.634,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王�"},{"start":12758.702,"end":12783.036,"text":"這個部分有,細節我請法律司司長跟您做個報告。好,請問你們演練些什麼?呃,我也好,我是法律司司長。這一次我們是巡禮,我們每一次的漢光演習,我們都會開設暫時的臨時法庭。我們會演練現在編配在部隊的人員,然後到我們指定的地點去開設臨時法庭,然後針對一些相關的案例來演練他們暫時必須要有的偵查跟審判的一個作為。"},{"start":12783.576,"end":12803.875,"text":"是,謝謝市長的這說明啊。那麼可是呢我們知道,其實從103年軍事審判法修法之後啊,軍事審判機關都已經虛極化了。大部分的軍法人員都已經編配到各個部隊裡面去當法務人員。那麼所以呢就現在的軍法官的配置的員額是足夠的嗎?"},{"start":12806.322,"end":12831.492,"text":"報告委員,我們有蓋算過,就是在台灣的整個作戰區跟作戰分區,我們要開設多少個臨時的審判庭跟臨時的偵察庭,它相關的數量所需要的人員跟我們現在有可以去做這件事情的相關的人員大約是蓋等。未來或許會減少,但是我們會用那個後備召集的方式,再用招的方式把人員再招回來。"},{"start":12831.892,"end":12854.918,"text":"好,我要講的就是說其實從101年到現在已經有12年都沒有招考過軍法官了,軍法官考試都沒有舉辦,那其實可以看得出來就是軍法官的人力是不足的,因為你們現在的編配比是多少?就是你們現在編制跟現有緣額的比例是多少?當然我們這個有一定的落差啦,是。落差有高達五成以上嗎?"},{"start":12855.936,"end":12867.24,"text":"三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、�"},{"start":12881.525,"end":12909.057,"text":"有能力可以去做相關的偵查審判的工作嗎?報告委員如果說以人力來講的話我們過去這樣子編配看起來的話是目前大概是蓋的那至於能力的部分我們就只有透過平常的一些訓練我們每年在我們自己有自訓那另外也有派那個就是資源的那個檢查事務官他們去從事一些相關一些實務工作他們也有借調的那他們也有做從事"},{"start":12909.377,"end":12912.14,"text":"我必須要打個比方這個就有點像是一個從來沒有飛行過沒有飛行訓練的飛行員一旦發生戰事的時候你要叫他立刻開戰機這其實沒有實際上平常就在做的偵查審判工作那到了真的發生狀況的時候是根本沒有辦法去處理我們剛剛講的那些有"},{"start":12933.981,"end":12944.311,"text":"具戰、怯戰、逃亡、抗命等犯罪行為的士兵所以在這邊我想請教部長請問一下部長認不認為其實我們應該要補足軍法官的這個員額"},{"start":12947.152,"end":12956.241,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":12966.249,"end":12983.477,"text":"三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委"},{"start":12983.697,"end":13011.92,"text":"那日後的話我想我們會納入這個相關的一個考量來做因為部長您新上任本席是非常重視有關於軍法人力的這個議題我希望就是說國防部能夠再恢復軍法官的考試這個養兵千日用在一時我們不能說等到真的發生狀況的時候找不到軍法官或是就算有軍法官他也沒有一個實際的一個經驗"},{"start":13013.641,"end":13030.909,"text":"到時候整個的軍紀會是混亂的我覺得這個問題是非常嚴重那看起來你們在這次漢光演習裡面其實並沒有把這個已經出現的問題納入通盤的思考如果說真的是要讓司法院的法官未來要一起加入暫時審判的話其實在整個的演習規劃裡面就應該要有相關的安排"},{"start":13037.325,"end":13063.213,"text":"我們跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說即使我們現在召考軍法官那也要能夠有審判的經驗那因為現在沒有這個審判的一個機制存在所以他的經驗沒有辦法累積那第二個我們要跟審判員來協調如何讓我們的這些軍法官、既有軍法官或者是我們考進來的法務官能夠接受相關的訓練然後另外再跟審判員協調如何能夠在暫時的時候來調用這個審判員的能力來進行"},{"start":13066.874,"end":13089.541,"text":"謝謝部長的說明,因為我想您是法律背景出身,所以您很了解就是整個的法律人員的這個養成,司法人員的養成。但是很重要的前提還是要先恢復軍法官的考試,要有人進來你才有辦法訓練。以上就是本期希望在很快的時間裡面就可以看到國防部可以跟考試院一起趕快再合辦軍法官考試,謝謝。好,謝謝。"},{"start":13096.994,"end":13123.246,"text":"謝謝接下來請賴士寶委員、賴士寶、賴士寶委員不在請楊瓊英、楊瓊英、楊瓊英委員不在請何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳委員不在請邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在請林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在請鄭正前、鄭正前、鄭正前委員不在請林思敏、林思敏、林思敏委員不在請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":13124.406,"end":13125.726,"text":"徐清穎委員上臺質詢。"},{"start":13145.924,"end":13171.311,"text":"部長好今天我們的專題報告是漢光四十號演習的規劃情形首先本席先表達我們非常支持國軍的防衛訓練但是呢在國軍防衛訓練的時候我們民眾的權益我們也希望部長可以了解聽一下我們第一線第一線的民眾的心聲"},{"start":13174.032,"end":13191.926,"text":"當然我們現在因為配合執政黨的抗中保台所以空軍越來越繁忙、頻繁的起降所以擾民的頻率也增加了首先本席在這裡要先跟部長溝通一個觀念"},{"start":13192.927,"end":13206.163,"text":"就是說我們的這個噪音你應該可以了解現代人忍受噪音的容忍度跟5年前、10年前甚至20年前是不一樣的這點部長您了解嗎?應該認同吧?"},{"start":13208.677,"end":13230.163,"text":"我的了解就是說確實我們現在面對的敵情嚴峻那空軍起降的次數是增加那時間上可能也沒有辦法因為他有時候甚至連夜間都會過來所以確實造成這個民眾在對民眾的有一些干擾那這一點要請民眾能夠諒解"},{"start":13232.445,"end":13246.705,"text":"對啦,民眾可以諒解啦,但是國防部這邊可以對民眾的補償、補助,民眾也希望國防部能夠多體恤啦。我了解是有這個詳情是不是行?對,來本席接著講。"},{"start":13248.027,"end":13270.607,"text":"我們空軍司令部有說民國92年1月8日以前於飛機航道下有房屋使用執照合於規定者每戶補助門窗及冷氣3萬元但是92年以後新蓋的房子那因為噪音管制法已經修法而且法令已經公告所以不再補助範圍內"},{"start":13272.128,"end":13301.27,"text":"那這點本席要跟部長來溝通就是說請問誰會願意住在每天被飛機噪音影響的地方那當然有幾種可能一種就是他經濟能力有限他只好買在那裡那另一種就是他92年買的時候他根本不知道他是在管制區內所以呢我們因為92年那時候的飛機起降情況跟我們現在也是不一樣嘛"},{"start":13301.89,"end":13319.573,"text":"所以那個補助沿用那麼久之前的是不是我們可以民眾大家我一直強調我們的立場我們支持我們國軍防衛訓練但是民眾的權益是不是可以請部長這個部分也能夠幫忙"},{"start":13322.676,"end":13343.613,"text":"委員好,我是空軍參謀長曹俊平。其實我們的噪音補助跟時間或者是其他的飛機機種是沒有關係,是跟噪音的程度有關係。所以它的噪音只要按照我們監測,達到噪音的標準,它就會按照這個。講得好,講得好。其實這個噪音的程度,我也要請部長,還有您說您是?我是空軍參謀長。參謀長。"},{"start":13346.775,"end":13365.724,"text":"我們聽過一句話叫做滴水穿石那你知道一滴水一滴水誰怕它不怕嘛怕的是驚濤駭浪海嘯對不對可是滴水穿石它只要一直滴一直滴一直滴它可以穿石所以噪音的分貝數啊"},{"start":13367.605,"end":13392.061,"text":"在不到那個分配那麼高的時候好像耳朵可以忍受但是如果長時間長期有多少人會崩潰這一塊要納入要考量啊所以包含你說我們這個重裝備我們背個幾十公斤在身上可以啊但是持續一年我跟你講身體絕對變形"},{"start":13393.7,"end":13395.962,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":13412.617,"end":13424.147,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":13438.88,"end":13465.005,"text":"依據空軍補助的村裡還有一個很有趣的現象我們新竹縣虎口鄉有一個鳳凰村鳳凰村隔壁是鳳山村鄉鄰嘛你鳳山村有補助但是鳳凰村就在鳳山村旁邊接近鳳山村的它的噪音跟鳳山村一樣但是鳳凰村沒有補助所以這一個部分"},{"start":13465.885,"end":13481.906,"text":"事不事可以重新來檢視?大委員其實只要地方任何時候有需求都可以提出來我們可以去做補監測這個動作剛剛講到監測的我們真的要拜託一下你不能說比如說80分貝假設以80分貝"},{"start":13484.409,"end":13507.775,"text":"那72分貝還不到80分貝但是他是持續不斷持續不斷不要講別的本席的聲音大一點10分鐘我在場很多人都受不了何況是我們飛機起降的聲音所以這一塊部長您今天在這一定要重視還有我們的總長拜託再來再來再來就是我們陸軍啊"},{"start":13509.736,"end":13533.476,"text":"就是空軍也可以參考一下陸軍航空六動腰旅的做法就是他改發放補償金給涉及滿一年在管制區的每一位鄉親那本席提到這個那個陸軍的沒關係你可以就座我只是說空軍是不是可以比照陸軍這種體恤民眾的方式"},{"start":13537.299,"end":13564.464,"text":"趙雲補助他有兩種方式可以執行一個是設施的補償另外一個是現金的補助但他執行的方式是由地方政府還有給個人的補償包委員您聽我說一下其實他執行的方式是由地方政府提出來之後經過趙改會討論同意之後由地方政府同意來執行那每個地方的這個執行方式在每次都會請地方政府先要看這個第一個一個輪次執行完畢的時候要不要更改"},{"start":13565.264,"end":13591.678,"text":"其實本席都了解我為什麼今天花這個時間來特別講這個那就一定是你們沒有聽到地方的聲音地方執行沒有辦法嘛所以才要立委在這裡講嘛讓部長在這邊站了一下嘛所以你們這塊就要清楚那今天本席講了以後當然您說的這個程序我們會再跑一次可不可以不要讓我們失望不要讓民眾失望"},{"start":13592.538,"end":13593.479,"text":"謝謝主席。我請國防部部長。請顧部長。"},{"start":13625.689,"end":13650.226,"text":"吳委員好部長好部長上次我在總質詢的時候來向您請教我們國軍改革的議題那後續呢我陸續看到我們國防外交委員會有很多委員在關切就是我們其中一項改革是休假免通報制度但是很多委員在關心說聽說但實質上落實下去還是有很多會變成是基層的官兵被要求要"},{"start":13651.407,"end":13666.981,"text":"主動來回報。那部長您當時的回答是說你有聽到相關的狀況。請問部長後續我們有沒有來追蹤怎麼樣來改善、落實這個改革。我想我已經要求這個所有的單位那麼關於這個"},{"start":13670.359,"end":13692.244,"text":"要在官兵就休假離營之前就完成相關安全宣導以外,就是要律定就是說休假的官兵遇到狀況才要主動回報,那這個我想在例如我們已經以這個令班這個全軍距離執行了,那如果說有任何的狀況我會納入這個"},{"start":13694.444,"end":13695.946,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":13713.188,"end":13739.362,"text":"遇到狀況當然就是遇到他需要有碰到一些協助的要需要我們來進行有需要協助的對的時候才需要來回報對因為回報是為了我們要能夠來協助協助他不然我們不清楚他的狀況是好謝謝那我們也希望說這樣的改革能夠繼續來落實那這一次是社會各界大家都很關心啊我們的漢光四十號演習"},{"start":13740.478,"end":13767.339,"text":"要採用一個新的方式我看了媒體的報導下了一些標題有些媒體說漢光野心不演了漢光野心來真的那這一次其實主要是說我們去改變了以往是預演展示的形式改以無劇本去中心化的方式來進行我看到國防部的說法是說這樣會比較貼近我們實兵的操演那這是不是就跟我們取消刺槍術取消踢陣不一樣"},{"start":13767.719,"end":13784.292,"text":"我們希望整體的國軍可以朝向跟去除形式主義化實戰訓練化的方式來進行的我們的想法是怎麼樣對我們主要的目的就是在驗證他們這個平時這個實戰化訓練的成果以及他們是不是能夠執行聯合作戰計畫"},{"start":13785.413,"end":13807.636,"text":"那所謂無劇本並不是說漫天的這個方式可以下令這個說任何的一個操演,他還是要由統裁部依照抵可能行動來下一個想定的主軸那在這個主軸之下各級的這個指揮官、主管他就要按照他的任務然後來做一個沒有先"},{"start":13809.537,"end":13832.784,"text":"就直接先告訴他說這要怎麼樣怎麼樣,他就照劇本這樣抄但是他這一個依照他的任務範圍之內他進行這樣子的一個連續性的一個下達這些科目的抄演然後來展現他這個平時訓練然後還有我們的聯合作案計畫是不是能夠到位這樣子"},{"start":13833.485,"end":13849.039,"text":"那其中去中心化的這個模式是指什麼樣的方式?去中心化就是說過去都是下面就是在等上面的依令嘛那現在就是說我們要假設說這個指管的系統可能會斷掉"},{"start":13850.08,"end":13873.323,"text":"那他就要知道說上級的任務是什麼所以在這樣子的時候他要理解他要完成的任務是什麼所以即使是沒有上面的指管沒有上面的指揮下來他還是知道他應該要的任務是什麼然後他結合這個交戰規則他要去讓他能夠自行決策來果斷的執行他應該要完成的任務"},{"start":13873.923,"end":13873.943,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":13893.127,"end":13899.171,"text":"我要扛責任等等所以我想我們這一次示範這個去中心化也要給每一個決策層級充分的支持讓他們能夠像部長你剛剛講的能夠勇敢果斷的來決策才是我們要達到的事情對這個軍中的文化我們要來逐步的透過這樣的演習來加以不斷的改變然後這樣的一個授權之後然後來自行決策果斷執行這樣子的一個層面"},{"start":13920.223,"end":13943.856,"text":"必須要透過這樣的一個演練來逐步的讓他們能夠理解而不是單純的一直等待上級的或者是整個到達這個我們講說最高的指揮層級給他一個下命令那下面才能夠進行作戰這樣子的一個思維的模式我想在第一次演練的時候一定會有一些狀況但是我們不斷透過這樣子演練應該會讓這個"},{"start":13948.279,"end":13966.141,"text":"國軍的這個戰力會有效的提升是,我們這次演習當中很重要一部分也包括了全民防衛動員能量那我們賴清德總統也成立了全社會防衛任性委員會所以全民防衛是絕對是我們未來很重要的一環那我過去有發現說因為我目前是國防部的全動署"},{"start":13967.202,"end":13995.179,"text":"是在我們行政院這個匯報當中的幕僚單位但是我們的基層民防他有我們的義消、義警包括民防像我們的以萬華區來說我們的民防常訓每年常訓我們每年都去的那也謝謝像我們上校都會在我們常訓課程當中來幫我們上全民國防的議題但是我們的權動署、國防部如何跟我們警政署、消防署這些相關的跨部會的單位能夠有一個協調的機制讓我們的這個全民防衛"},{"start":13995.839,"end":14014.521,"text":"在暫時的時候,倘若是權動署要來指揮,但在平時怎麼樣有一個更好的協調?我想權動署只是作為一個執行秘書的一個單位。如果就整個跨部會的這樣全社會防衛的韌性,總統現在也成立一個委員會,那另外在行政院也有政委來做跨部會的協調。"},{"start":14015.442,"end":14031.199,"text":"那我的理解是我在國安會的期間國安會也要負責做這方面的協調工作那國安部作為配合這一個全社會防疫韌性建構裡面的一環那國安部就會統整這個剛剛提到了這些相關的"},{"start":14032.1,"end":14047.845,"text":"三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委"},{"start":14059.645,"end":14076.529,"text":"可能是那一些比較無據本事的一些推演那關鍵基礎設施的房屋比如說行政有國土辦然後等等那他到各目的事業主管機關不管有水電等等他也要可能會遭受一些"},{"start":14077.73,"end":14081.072,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":14110.001,"end":14131.615,"text":"接下來請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢。主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府監事長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生,有請顧部長。請顧部長。需要的可能是空軍人員陪同。請。請空軍參謀長。"},{"start":14139.73,"end":14162.479,"text":"部長,過去您看過漢光演習嗎?幾次?有沒有超過五次?我講的是過去啦,現在是漢光四十號啦。漢光演習在屏東,你是四次。我當副市長你當了八年啦,看的次數可能不下於你。"},{"start":14163.679,"end":14186.514,"text":"過去我們屏東的恆春地區、恆春半島地區都有一個民意代表有一點半開玩笑的建議說漢光演習火力展示很好看應該把它規劃成一個觀光資源照來觀光客尤其是在冬天落山峰的時候請漢光演習移到那個冬季落山峰來執行我們可以讓觀光客來參觀漢光演習你覺得這樣的說法您有覺得什麼地方怪怪的嗎?"},{"start":14188.955,"end":14213.436,"text":"我印象很深刻是有一次就是他有一個漢光演習的時候火力展示,那我們就在那個很大的一個台子上面,參觀台上面,那這個火力的展示是還蠻威武的,但是很明顯的是一種展示性、表演性質的一種。是,從漢光十一號之後呢,漢光演習在地方人看起來是一種火力展示,是一個秀。"},{"start":14214.016,"end":14226.936,"text":"而不是一個實戰所以對這次部長只是要做實戰化的一個趨勢大家很肯定好但是接下來我們有更務實的說法來請看請問一下部長過去共軍共機共建老台的航機當中哪些地方比較常被騷擾哪些地方比較少被騷擾"},{"start":14229.607,"end":14246.328,"text":"現在已經沒有辦法做這樣子的一個區隔了,過去是越過中線。其實我們做過統計往下看,其實大概是巴士海峽涵蓋我國跟菲律賓的防空識別區ADIZ,這個部分他們比較少去過去,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":14247.301,"end":14275.038,"text":"有沒有這樣的統計?這個地方我們所知道的,據我們所知道的內情人士說這個地方,為什麼?因為你當過負責國安,因為容易跟菲律賓引起緊張,是不是這樣子?可是我們的AZR的西南面,現在跟東南面他們也都常見。對,但是靠巴士海峽這邊呢,過去比較少來往下看。所以就一個問題啦,如果未來兩岸有進行到這個開戰的情況,我們西部的戰機是不是會戰力移轉到東部去?"},{"start":14277.932,"end":14295.548,"text":"我們會分散式的配置,但是詳細的情況我想可能不宜…當然,但是我們知道這個戰力移轉是很重要的,那因為我屏東有一個戰略空軍,就是六聯隊,六聯隊跟其他的聯隊、戰鬥機聯隊不太一樣,請問一下如果他戰力保存、戰力轉進要到哪裡去?"},{"start":14296.809,"end":14301.155,"text":"其實有沒有可能往其他的國家,譬如說菲律賓,其實這不是沒有可能的。"},{"start":14312.47,"end":14337.129,"text":"過去我們的C13棟曾經去做過人道救援飛到菲律賓飛到更遠的國家都有去過所以這邊請你思考一點就是說當未來遇到這樣子狀況的時候我們可能我們的戰力保存需要各種的可能性都要考量進去菲律賓也不視為是一個未來可以戰略上結盟的地方這個時候屏東有個武里亭機場啊它可能就是一個在主跑道被破壞的情況下它一個被降跑道有沒有這樣的規劃"},{"start":14339.107,"end":14356.107,"text":"你們對於屏東武里勤機場、恆春武里勤有沒有了解?我的了解是武里勤機場的跑道的長度是不夠的。過去我們屏東想要發展觀光,一直希望把它跑道方向移轉,避免落山風。第二是長度加強,讓大型客機可以降。後來發現都是一場夢。為什麼?"},{"start":14359.17,"end":14375.385,"text":"因為他那裡實在不適合大型的客機起降但是對於我們空軍戰機他的耐候性上來講跑道只要適度的延伸就可以作為我們六連隊各項戰略空軍機種的停降的一個備援跑道請問空軍看法怎麼樣"},{"start":14378.837,"end":14402.13,"text":"報告委員您這個提議我們大概還要再納入更周延的考量,因為到過去沒有這樣的研究,我們未來再做質詢再跟您報告。我們連戰力移轉有沒有可能考慮要用菲律賓,這個都要列入你們的思考。最後,部長。其實呢,除了作戰之外,我們來看一下,台灣的空港、台灣的機場,不是只有空軍在使用,是不是有民航機在使用,是不是有貨機在使用。"},{"start":14403.719,"end":14406.341,"text":"民航機場起降幾年前培洛西萊是降在哪個機場?"},{"start":14416.828,"end":14433.341,"text":"桃園機場離對岸很近嘛他一隻手伸出來就扼住你的掐住你的咽喉了嘛所以這個時候呢作為一個客機的主要起降機場桃園機場在暫時或面對經濟封鎖的時候他有很高的一個被封鎖性但是呢台灣其實啊按照某位名人的說法"},{"start":14433.801,"end":14461.013,"text":"只要貨能貨出去人進來人沒有進來沒關係台灣的半導體晶片能夠出口我們就比較不擔心經濟封鎖請問部長你知道台灣的晶片是坐飛機坐船還是怎麼樣用陸運嗎應該大部分用空運用空運對所以一個輸出的出口的空運的國際機場維持台灣在緊張狀態下能夠持續出口很重要你覺得如果出口的貨機機場放在哪裡比較有可能不會被封鎖"},{"start":14462.537,"end":14485.402,"text":"我都給你秀出來了。其實就是跟空軍概念一樣。因為南部的ADS呢,我們比較在平常就會通過一個渠道所用。所以最後兩點呢,請部長簡短的回應。有沒有可能評估恆生機場延伸以作為戰略機種的一個倍降起這樣的可能性?第二個,當面臨經濟火種的時候,如果南部有個貨運機場,是不是比較能夠維持台灣的生產運輸?請簡短回答。"},{"start":14489.421,"end":14510.802,"text":"我只能說我們納入評估的項目,我沒有辦法做一個明確具體的承諾。那你可不可以用一個嘗試性的判斷,有沒有可行性值得你去評估?我們要做,先要做可行性的評估。是的,是的,所以又是請你做可行性評估。以上說的是結合部分的嘗試跟部分的專業所提出來的建議,請部長的慎重考量。"},{"start":14512.904,"end":14522.821,"text":"我在交通委員會在交通部長都多次的提出這一個以出口為導向的國際貨運機場在南部較不易受封鎖的空域裡面去設置的概念好 謝謝部長好 謝謝"},{"start":14533.983,"end":14551.506,"text":"今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分會要求補充資料者、疫情相關單位已出面於兩週內提供委員另約定期限者從期所定"},{"start":14554.256,"end":14577.004,"text":"有關國軍老舊眷村改建條例各修正草案今天已經完成詢答主條審查的部分透過國防部的說明針對修正的內容牽涉的面向相當廣泛可能還需要有更多的共識凝聚所以先行保留令則其繼續審查本次會議到此結束 散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}