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請好 那請張 張局長請"},{"start":2269.82,"end":2292.613,"text":"在我們那個四三四的條文對照表,我想主項從第五條開始。第五條,第一個大概是我們會把那個開發型這個定義把它刪除掉。所以第五款的,第十五款就不見了。那因為將來在49之三,它還是有一些相關的實質規範內容會再存在,所以刪除那個定義是不受影響的。"},{"start":2293.813,"end":2315.868,"text":"這是第一點的部分。那第二點就是吳委員跟陳一貞委員有建議的這個公共建設這個部分。那我們建議是不用在條文裡面特別去敘述。將來只要在說明欄去敘述就可以了。因為表達到我們有重視這方面公共建設的這個事項就可以了。所以我們建議維持原來的條文。"},{"start":2316.548,"end":2342.493,"text":"另外吳立法跟陳醫生委員有建議到第五條的第十二項不動產的部分要不要可以單獨分離附屬的設施定義要不要連結在一起我們建議條文要保留將來到我們在說明欄裡面再做序名我們目前所建議的這種附屬的定義設施的概念是什麼意思這樣應該可以表達到原來委員的建議是這樣"},{"start":2343.632,"end":2370.441,"text":"那就按行政院的提案修正通過吧。嗨,對其二項十二款的橋樑應改為橋樑正面木製旁嘛。好。OK。好。那第五條就這樣照行政院提案修正通過。建議條文。提案吧。按經管會的這個建議條文修正通過。好。好,現在改一下。"},{"start":2372.338,"end":2376.842,"text":"二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員"},{"start":2392.745,"end":2393.626,"text":"二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭"},{"start":2414.256,"end":2437.376,"text":"對於這個徵定第49條之三的部分按照經管會建議條文通過,有沒有意見?就是不放入社會住宅?本來就沒有了。社會住宅本來就不是在這邊處理的。接下來徵定第49條之十一"},{"start":2440.244,"end":2441.825,"text":"二十一頁這個部分"},{"start":2463.906,"end":2481.038,"text":"財政部有看他們的意見怎麼樣,我們也要尊重他,因為這部分我們只是行政院版本來方式的建議。來,雙書長請。是,報告委員,那我們還是建議採行政院版本,就有兩個原因。第一個是因為委員建議的是要把盈利系列貨配"},{"start":2482.038,"end":2495.594,"text":"這個短…我們講的貨幣利息所得是要分離課稅那目前我們的盈利事業基本上都沒有分離課稅這樣的規定主要有兩個原因第一個因為我們盈利事業它是可以有當年度盈虧戶底的規定跟後延10年虧存扣除規定"},{"start":2496.835,"end":2498.616,"text":"二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭"},{"start":2532.77,"end":2542.939,"text":"財政部財政部嗎?宋署長請我們財政部這邊做一個說明現在瑞子和所持有的土地目前我們大概統計大概主要是在雙北跟桃園"},{"start":2543.74,"end":2570.407,"text":"那因為委員介入的條文是說他基金的土地他不要用累進課稅全部用單一稅率千分之十來課那這會影響到地方政府的財政收入那大家現在也都在討論說地方政府財政收入夠不夠的問題那現在又目前又只有那幾個縣市那這幾個縣市一定會覺得沒辦法去承受這樣的稅損所以署長你還是建議照行政院的條文對我們建議照行政院版的條文"},{"start":2570.947,"end":2600.166,"text":"好,那請問各位委員,照行政院提案通過,有沒有意見?好,沒有意見,通過。接下來,第49條之19。這也是財政部的。對,財政部,那請副部長。是,那我跟委員報告,因為49條之19跟18是不一樣的。18它是新設一個基金,然後把原來的吸收合併,它本身是整個去蓋瓜承受。但49條之19這種是兩個基金,它本來不一樣,它合併成一個。"},{"start":2600.926,"end":2620.062,"text":"目前所有的合併都要做一個結算的動作,所以它不是所謂的非屬課稅範圍的問題,而是要依稅法證明所的稅問題,所以我們建議按照行政院版的條文通過。好,蘇組長說是按照行政院提案這個版本通過,各位有沒有意見?沒有意見通過。好,第111條。"},{"start":2622.391,"end":2645.627,"text":"這是配合49條之三的條文聯動。那我們就按照經管會的建議條文通過。好,每一件通過。接下來我們不動產條例的部分條文修正草案。來,我們保留的條文是第17條。那近負惡毒的病案協商是第62跟64條。來。"},{"start":2649.945,"end":2672.032,"text":"首先針對17條的部分那17條的部分的話本來這邊委員有建議是在就是序文的地方我們這邊是建議跟投信投顧法一樣就是不得投資與住宅法第三條第一款所定的住宅所以先於是按照行政院的條文"},{"start":2674.639,"end":2699.025,"text":"應該是金管會建議的條文。有關於第17條,我們就按照金管會建議條文通過。有沒有意見?沒有意見,通過。來,那待會有請。主委,我想是不是在針對了這個住宅法的第三條,那就是說這個本法用詞的定義,住宅到底有沒有含社會住宅?"},{"start":2699.962,"end":2710.325,"text":"來,那也要請內政部來解釋,還是內政部專委?張專委還是何專委?張專委請。剛才針對賴委員的這個提問,請說明。麥克風麻煩。"},{"start":2723.144,"end":2744.729,"text":"是有包含社會住宅就是我們現在住宅法的這個第三條規定當中是這樣子有包含社會住宅有明確嘛那你可不可以跟他說明一下就是有明確含社會住宅那如果說這一次本席我是主張啦我是主張就是社會住宅應該是納進來就是在這一次就是我們的修法的部分"},{"start":2745.589,"end":2759.735,"text":"那如果我們就是用就是文字上社會住宅我們用文字上給他排除的話這一個法源是不是用?要排除就當社會住宅可以進來這個部分?對對對這樣子的話呢就這樣子一個修正啦"},{"start":2767.969,"end":2792.109,"text":"但是其實我們目前我們社會住宅用瑞士的這個機會是不是其實比較不高啊?就是因為我們必須要創造更多的一個投資的一個工具。這個我剛剛就強調了嘛,是我的一個主張嘛。那如果就是說,我們在這個...政策面的部分還是請那個張局長來解釋好了好不好?我們請金管化解釋,他法條解釋就好。政策面我們還是請金管化這邊來進行解釋好了。"},{"start":2793.69,"end":2814.176,"text":"為什麼社會住宅沒有納入一個主要因素?其實上次有討論過。對,這個部分其實在驗版當時在規劃的時候就考慮到說因為他怕有產王的問題,所以我們就不把社會住宅納進去。所以當時是有討論過。所以驗版的時候就不把社會住宅納進去。所以我們現在條文是看不到有社會住宅這個話題。"},{"start":2815.316,"end":2815.517,"text":"林楚茵、林委員請"},{"start":2825.54,"end":2826.02,"text":"本院委員郭國文等16人擬具"},{"start":2846.113,"end":2857.368,"text":"讓青年首構能夠檢踢他的房貸壓力但是美意就因為幾個所謂的害群之馬的案例那麼新青安現在變成是回過頭來要重新檢視當時本席是認為從"},{"start":2860.772,"end":2888.57,"text":"百萬要提升到一千萬然後從三十拉到四十其實這都是因為蛋黃區跟蛋白區的差異我們也不希望說好像變成是稍微接近蛋黃區一點的買不到那麼為什麼我會拉到這個有關於新青安的問題就是我們現場在座的大家都知道REIT它是一個投資性的商品也就是說我們本身是讓它用證券化的方式去投資這些比較龐大的物件"},{"start":2889.29,"end":2912.549,"text":"則希望活絡創造更多的這個投資的商品但是他既然投資他就要獲利可是大家都知道社會住宅它的用意是什麼就是跟新清安一樣是協助在經濟上相對比較弱勢的人能夠在合理的價格在合理的地區居住能夠成豬他們可以負擔得起的住宅"},{"start":2913.75,"end":2927.263,"text":"一邊是居住正義、房價正義一邊是獲利當兩者衝突跟矛盾的時候如果出現了這樣的案例的時候那麼我們今天修法如果把這個門打開那麼未來我們可能就要承擔"},{"start":2928.484,"end":2928.624,"text":"二、本院委員郭"},{"start":2948.562,"end":2948.782,"text":"二、本院委員郭"},{"start":2963.914,"end":2990.529,"text":"不放進社會住宅而根據住宅法的第三條規定本來就是有三個定義住宅、社會住宅跟公益出租人我建議在現在打房的經濟大原則之下尤其是最近房價又高漲請大家三思我還是認為必須要把一定的線先踩住然後REIT是一件好事我也不希望REIT在大眾不了解的情況底下REIT又被耽擱"},{"start":2992.72,"end":3008.586,"text":"我補充一下我想我跟楚茵在最大的一個差別就是說社宅它不是住宅就是社宅它其實是一個公共的建設那楚茵認為就是說社會住宅它的錢的來源"},{"start":3009.986,"end":3011.447,"text":"三、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員"},{"start":3038.127,"end":3065.189,"text":"大大公股銀行我們借了4千億4千億給這個住都中心來蓋那等於說我們政府已經就是投入了4千億那這個會不會造成政府的一個舉債政府的一個舉債那在這裡我再特別請教就是說這個4千億是不是已經動波了那每個月的利息是多少錢這個誰有辦法回答我"},{"start":3069.011,"end":3089.409,"text":"內政部專委但是就是說17條第五款有個其他經主管機關核准投資或運用資標的這個條文那或許我們社會主權如果真的有需要用到的時候可以用這個條文由這個主管機關他"},{"start":3090.23,"end":3092.132,"text":"我告訴你我查過這個資料了我們已經開始這個那個就是4000億已經動波了每年我們要支付3.6億現在就是我們每年都要支付3.6億的利息"},{"start":3108.81,"end":3133.871,"text":"所以我主張就是說用律使的錢這個建設會加快還有就是說政府不用舉債你們想到他有可能這個四千億他可能未來也是政府的一個黑洞、一個負債那為什麼不用這個民間的一個能量那我們多了更多的一個工具讓這個社會住宅可以做得更好"},{"start":3135.024,"end":3163.073,"text":"民間的部分社會住宅需要資金的部分除了連帶之外他還可以發行債券相關部會都有在處理而且上一次的之前的內政部的政務次長花次其實也說過那時候就有討論到是要發行綠色債券的部分一兆元的部分所以資金的部分老實說依照目前台灣資金這麼豐盛的情況底下要取得這些資金並不是非常的困難那重點其實是在於說那個現在REACH的部分他主要目的是在投資"},{"start":3164.454,"end":3177.055,"text":"投資要獲利,獲利的情況底下社會住宅標的是屬於比較社會公益,就像林楚茵林委員剛剛所講的一樣的道理,並不是在比較不夠那麼商品化,如果過度的商品化可能就會變成炒作的標的。"},{"start":3179.704,"end":3184.346,"text":"我個人是覺得就是說這個借錢都要還啦那你這個這個會變成是一個很大的一個困境"},{"start":3207.235,"end":3227.575,"text":"主席委員來再補充說明一下,因為他好像有點沒有對焦的感覺。對,我覺得兩邊可能沒有對焦上,就是我相信社會住宅的建設的這些包括他的資金、他的Fund不應該是由REIT來出,他本來應該本身就有資金,只是說他開放讓民間可以有機會投資進來,那麼因為投資就是要獲利。"},{"start":3228.075,"end":3252.977,"text":"那麼對於現在的一般投資人來講我擔心的就是你把社會住宅放進來那剛剛內政部有講了其實裡面有附帶的條件不是說完全就把它排除如果必要的時候是不是可以放進來你剛剛內政部你所講的是哪一條第五款嘛對不對是那言下之意就是到時候主管機關金管會這裡如果因為我相信社宅"},{"start":3254.585,"end":3279.78,"text":"因為我覺得社宅齁這個全國各縣市都有社宅啦那每一個社宅的狀況也不太一樣啦那你今天如果把全國的社宅都放入一個可以成為衍生性金融商品商品化的標的的時候我個人還是先存疑就是你怎麼樣去面對外界的質疑說社宅也可以變成是"},{"start":3280.836,"end":3293.146,"text":"不動產證券化的商品的當中的其中一個這個你只要簡略的去解釋那我覺得就說不過去了所以顯然社宅可以"},{"start":3294.195,"end":3297.956,"text":"擬具〈證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案案〉案〈證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":3323.284,"end":3339.659,"text":"設宅可以投資可以炒作然後可以獲利那這個連結到到時候不一樣的地區的設宅的租金的時候我舉一個例子臺北市這個大同區他就有一間設宅一個月要四萬多塊"},{"start":3340.479,"end":3355.075,"text":"當初剛推出來的時候就引發了媒體的爭論跟討論覺得哇四萬多塊這麼貴啊是誰租的去可是那個就是台北市的淡黃區那如果這個淡黃區以這個個案我不知道他現在他的到底他的月租金是多少"},{"start":3355.475,"end":3371.428,"text":"但當他一旦要做合理的調漲的時候那會不會被誤會為那是因為他已經成為商品化證券化商品化那他要獲得一定的獲利所以他必須要利潤要回收所以我認為社宅還是應該站在公益性的部分先保留"},{"start":3372.429,"end":3375.011,"text":"二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員"},{"start":3399.564,"end":3400.705,"text":"二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭"},{"start":3426.034,"end":3432.983,"text":"我都是想就是說有哪一個單位可以跟本席解釋得清楚一點。我也想聽聽這個經管會。誰要解釋一下?說一下。"},{"start":3447.717,"end":3463.123,"text":"新北市社會住宅案例是一個VOT案。民間是完全用自償的方式,所以租金是由民間機構直接收取。"},{"start":3472.588,"end":3473.128,"text":"我…我是…我是這樣子啦"},{"start":3510.262,"end":3523.554,"text":"那個住宅的定義不只是社會住宅,它如果第三條放進去的話,就是連同一般的住宅都可能會拿來做炒作的標的啦。對啦,就是民間的部分呢,如果一般的大樓都可以綠色的話的話,那真的是……"},{"start":3524.955,"end":3543.433,"text":"事情會很大條,真的不一樣。你如果想像所有的這些大樓都拿來做股票標的的話,那個房地產的這個炒作資金的集中度會越來越高。金管會要不要補充說明一下,跟賴委員說明一下。"},{"start":3546.656,"end":3549.218,"text":"二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭"},{"start":3575.535,"end":3576.596,"text":"二、本院委員郭國文等16人擬具"},{"start":3603.627,"end":3610.251,"text":"副副副"},{"start":3618.685,"end":3642.309,"text":"那也可以接受嗎?謝謝,謝謝好,那我們這一條第17條就按照金管會的這個建議條文通過好,接下來還有第62條跟64條那先跟大家說明一下第64條的部分少一個條文的條第11款的部分少一個條文的條跟大家說明一下好,第62條、64條金管會請說明一下"},{"start":3647.349,"end":3670.209,"text":"好,那這個62條跟64條基本上我們是配合就是17條的修正條文所以把62跟64的相關的原因上開的條次一起修正所以我們這邊是會參採委員建議的條文上好,那這一條就按照經管會的建議條文通過有沒有意見?好,沒有意見通過,來好,那第64條"},{"start":3674.69,"end":3698.57,"text":"您到金管會要不要再補充說明一下?六十四條的部分也是配合二十二條條文修正的相次的變動所以修正六十四條原因傷害條文的相次所以我們會參考會參採委員建議所以金管會也並同修正上"},{"start":3699.17,"end":3701.633,"text":"請大家稍坐一下,我們等一下結論宣告"},{"start":3723.416,"end":3728.259,"text":"因為剛剛有一場會議是說會計師公會或四大等等他們對於說這個WiZ就是早就必須應該推動的"},{"start":3748.14,"end":3770.649,"text":"那也希望說這個組委新任大概多月齁我們在這方面包括未來的公件齁包括未來的一些比較大型的推動的商場等等齁可以比較有效率的把它集合在一起齁方便最大的功效齁讓一些機構法人甚至國外的法人齁"},{"start":3771.397,"end":3772.358,"text":"二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭"},{"start":3799.218,"end":3801.119,"text":"我們在議事人在整理協商結論,請大家稍後。"},{"start":3825.919,"end":3830.483,"text":"郭國文等16人擬具、「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案案案 案"},{"start":3836.156,"end":3844.542,"text":"他們家也是那種很輕鬆的支撐的?對,對,對。他是養尊處優,因為他們家是賣紅棗的。你不知道?他們家賣紅棗?"},{"start":3859.115,"end":3860.999,"text":"若在我們那個年代賣紅棗應該都是…"},{"start":3868.018,"end":3896.124,"text":"好,我們黨團的協商結論如下,一、第十七條照協調主題,第一,法案名稱本院委員郭國文等16人擬具不動產證券化條例部分條文修正草案的案。二、院會晉附二讀並案協商委員郭國文等19人擬具不動產證券化條例第62條及第64條條文修正案。"},{"start":3897.064,"end":3922.694,"text":"協商結論一、第十七條按照委員郭國文等16人提案修正通過。二、第六十二條照委員郭國文等19人提案通過。三、第六十四條照委員郭國文等19人提案修正通過。四、其餘均照審查會審查結果通過。好,來還有一個"},{"start":3925.437,"end":3926.658,"text":"總共有兩個法案,稍等一下。"},{"start":3950.428,"end":3950.628,"text":"主席"},{"start":3967.394,"end":3990.529,"text":"主席,我想這個不影響協商條例,那我再補充說明一下就是說我們有新的這個一個投資的工具開始的時候是不是也應該要做到投資人的一個保護那我希望就是說在執法中必須要那個明文規定就是受益人的保護機制至少每年應該要召開一個受益人的一個會議"},{"start":3991.971,"end":3997.58,"text":"郭國文等16人擬具、「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案案 案件、證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文"},{"start":4000.401,"end":4022.45,"text":"對,確實那個之前在審查討論的過程當中,賴委員有提過齁,類似的受議員會議齁的頻率齁,要把他定期化的說法啦。那因為現在剛上路嘛,你們要不要再跟賴委員補充一下,之所以為什麼你們條文會這樣子?對,剛才委員所講的這個部分,我們將來在執法就會規範一年一次的概念,對外來揭露。"},{"start":4024.158,"end":4024.178,"text":"羅委員請"},{"start":4036.241,"end":4061.876,"text":"謝謝,對於這個REITS的部分,就是我想請教一下,因為國外一般都沒有限制所謂的專業投資人,好像國內是超過100個,必須要100個以內,超過的話就會有所限制。現階段以及未來發展,會不會對於機構投資人,或者是說自然人有特別的限制?"},{"start":4064.264,"end":4065.31,"text":"三、本院委員郭"},{"start":4069.663,"end":4093.334,"text":"綠池是公募的,如果是公募的綠池就會掛在交易所上市目前對投資人的身份不會有限制但是如果是私募的私募的因為所有私募的商品因為就是投資比較有彈性但是他對應募人投資人的資格條件就會有要求就是專業投資人的資格條件就是有包括例如專業機構投資人高淨值投資法人專業投資治安人就是要"},{"start":4098.516,"end":4100.898,"text":"國外的一些,像英國、美國、新加坡,他們對這方面有這樣的限制嗎?"},{"start":4119.276,"end":4140.278,"text":"國外一樣,就是其實國外管理規範一樣,針對公募跟私募都有不同的要求,因為公募就是掛在對一般的投資人去募集跟銷售,通常是不會有一些資格,投資人資格的條件只是落實在一般的KYC。我知道了,其實這一個投資標的對很多人來說都是新的投資標的。"},{"start":4141.899,"end":4162.671,"text":"將來我們在財政委員會我真的建議可以用一個專題報告等他們執法完整之後來做一個說明會更加的完整因為確實公募跟私募確實是不一樣你資金來源的管道跟投資人資格的限定就會有所差別然後因為很多是授權於執法的部分那執法的部分包括公募跟私募它在公件的比例也會不同"},{"start":4164.072,"end":4192.349,"text":"所以說這個部分都需要有一些時間讓他們授權他們執法之後來做一個說明執法上我們會看到比較多的建議可以讓這個投資標準更加的完整風險的更加的降低好不好OK好那接下來我們另一個黨團協商的這個結論協商主題是行政院函請審議本院委員郭國文等16人擬具《證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案》等二案及委員林楚茵等17人擬具《證券投資"},{"start":4193.429,"end":4211.426,"text":"信託及顧問法第一條、第二條及第三條之一條文修正草案案。協商結論一、第五條、增訂第四十九條之三、增訂四十九條之十一及第十一百一十一條函說明均照協商內容通過"},{"start":4212.347,"end":4235.034,"text":"如後赴。二、增定第49條之14、增定49條之15及增定49條之19均照行政院提案通過。三、其餘均照審查會審查結果通過。好,沒有意見,那我們就通過。好,我們閃一下齁。"},{"start":4238.652,"end":4246.117,"text":"郭國文等16人擬具、「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案案案 案。"},{"start":4263.509,"end":4265.85,"text":"我們今天的協商就到此結束,散會謝謝"},{"start":4297.858,"end":4308.848,"text":"謝謝!"},{"start":4316.735,"end":4321.638,"text":"三、本院委員郭三、本院委員郭三、本院委員郭"},{"start":4338.87,"end":4339.83,"text":"董事長董事長董事長董事長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}