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案情不一樣那我也不會干涉介入 我也沒有去參與了解這些事你有聽到你這層檢察官說你這樣是不是變成司法打手了怎麼會這麼不公平 你看看咧明明是加起來16比17啊你再怎麼取樣都不可能出現這麼不公平吧剛剛 局長 你剛才的意思你剛才的意思是法務部"},{"start":102.967,"end":122.883,"text":"檢察官這邊都沒有沒有沒有發查你現在責任是推給那個推給那個檢察官這邊嗎沒有檢察官有發查但是應該是沒有全部我們現在沒發查你為什麼0比5呢為什麼出現0比5你的意思是報告員如果你有注意到的話其實目前現在發動偵辦的都是一些死亡連署"},{"start":123.854,"end":146.377,"text":"的一個狀況基隆您配講那個是110多個不是死亡連署是什麼那個不是死亡連署他沒有任何死亡連署嗎來你看你看中選會來看中選會的告發他什麼一件以上有涉及死亡連署或者其他的這裡面有多少16個案15加1包括高雄案的有多少是有死亡連署的你目前辦一個案子給我看有沒有"},{"start":147.598,"end":155.66,"text":"我們現在辦的都是死亡連署 因為死亡連署死亡連署就是一個很明顯的地方你不要硬啊 你不要閃避 這16個案子裡面沒有任何一個案子是有死亡連署的嗎這個要看個案的要看個案 你這邊已經辦了 南京這邊辦了5個啊你這邊16個 我問你 16個裡面沒有任何一個有死亡連署嗎"},{"start":171.84,"end":188.695,"text":"其實對我們來說沒有這個要經得起考驗喔這個非常經得起考驗對我們來說其實是沒有藍綠我們只是從這些死亡連署的人數太多的這些狀況可能檢察官覺得這個是比較嚴重的第一個中選會是有一個以上他就告發了這是第一次嘛對不對第一次的"},{"start":190.851,"end":207.849,"text":"那你應該同時辦啊你覺得有 到目前我就是在辦啊你去辦 辦到一個5比0包括一個5比0局長 局長你能不能給我的答案 局長現在是嚴重 這個司法的天秤 嚴重傾斜嘛我看到也知道啊現在就是說 你到底當時要辦"},{"start":209.511,"end":232.851,"text":"你要公平嘛我現在不是講藍綠的問題你要司法是要公正跟公平的你什麼時候綠的才要辦我們很同意喔我們很同意委員說這個這個司法要公平我們不是講藍綠啊你這樣有公平嗎所以我們現在就是針對如果委員你去看那些死亡連署的狀況你就會出現你就會知道說問題出在哪裡對啊啊你綠的我就問你嘛綠的都沒有死亡連署嗎"},{"start":236.05,"end":255.416,"text":"都沒有是嗎15加1 包括高黃金的案 霸藍的15個案子都沒有嗎現在在國會殿堂 現在是對著全民講話 局長現在檢驗兩個嘛 你什麼時候開始辦律第二個你在辦的時候有多少個是有死亡連署是律的發起的一定經得起考驗"},{"start":257.332,"end":282.45,"text":"好 現在去考驗 有 全民正在看你你目前已經經不起考驗了0比5 你接下來就看你的進度來 保定 我問你一下我們年紀都差不多啦我跟你講一個比較沉痛的事情我們這個年紀啊 我們經過戒嚴到解嚴多少人為了台灣的民主法治 人權不要說流血流汗 連性命都丟了啦那鄭南榕為了爭取言論100%你們現在辦這個案子這樣"},{"start":286.282,"end":311.536,"text":"這樣辦不只是沒有公正沒有公平我問你一個最簡單的你應該是一個民主素養的法務部長全世界的民主國家除了台灣這一次國民黨的台北市黨部被你們搜索了近景連柯文哲家裡面跟民眾黨的中央黨部都被你們搜索了你的腦海裡面全世界民主國家有那個國家"},{"start":313.291,"end":341.89,"text":"檢調去搜索在野黨的這個辦公室的有沒有幾個給我聽這個我對這邊是沒有研究美國如果共和黨執政如果共和黨執政敢去搜索民進黨民主黨任何一個辦公室而且這個是權力分立的嘛這個有犯罪嫌疑要搜索的話這是要跟法院申請的如果法院沒有搜索的必要所以柏定我說你我們年紀差不多我們經歷了那個整個民主進程你現在倒退如何啦"},{"start":344.012,"end":359.866,"text":"這個對你來講歷史定位這是一個傷害你要想辦法去補破往往前邁進我剛問你的是一個全世界的標準全世界有哪個民主國家發生了最近這八九個月以來民眾黨的中央黨部被搜索國民黨的"},{"start":361.26,"end":376.493,"text":"台南的黨部被搜索台北市黨部被搜索現在台南新北都有多少人有五個人被你們縮壓我現在問的是一個普世的價值全世界民主國家美國這樣共和黨執政他敢去搜索民主黨的這個黨部嗎"},{"start":378.214,"end":397.169,"text":"所以跟委員報告 這個違照屬押 違照提議這本來就是破壞民主法制的基石嘛所以這次貴大院也是不是在去年也通過了選罷法的修法就嚴懲就是這些違照屬押 違照這些的提議的這些的未經他們同意的 這些違照法所以這個本來就是"},{"start":400.231,"end":427.76,"text":"我現在要講的是你的歷史定位今天怎麼樣去捍衛台灣的法治跟人權我給你一個標準是說你去看看全世界的全世界的民主國家有哪一個民主國家的在野黨的黨部中央黨部像最近這八個多月以來被這樣搜索你們要經得去考驗那你如果還在意的話我講的話你還在意的話要想一想夜深人靜的時候想一想你的歷史定位是什麼"},{"start":428.373,"end":454.429,"text":"好 接下來司法處剛剛講的公正跟公平比例原則很重要嘛 對不對這是比例原則也很重要嘛 我問啊共諜案 民進黨連環報你們有沒有要好好去辦相對的比例原則 你說有死人去連署委照文書嘛 告知嘛 對不對這是重罪嗎國家安全這個才是國家安全法這個才是重罪法 七年以上啊"},{"start":456.422,"end":464.148,"text":"這邊五年以下就你現在用大砲打小鳥不只是5比0的問題耶需要去大收手大縮壓嗎這個沒有違反比例的原則個案不同啊個案不同這五個個案變成一個通案嘛對不對結果你五個通案的原則是什麼就是大收手大縮壓嘛不是這樣嗎"},{"start":480.715,"end":489.55,"text":"這個犯罪嫌疑重大當然有刑事司法101條的這些要件都發生嫌疑重大他的徒刑是五年以下他是重大犯罪嗎"},{"start":490.559,"end":511.06,"text":"你要好好辦 你去辦共諜案 民進黨的共諜案這完全是回到法律刑事訴訟法的法律得益的規定以及那個案情 以及那個偵查案罪所必要的已經有多少法界的人士 從學者到法官到檢察官 律師在提醒你嚴重違反這個比例原則 你都沒有聽進去嗎"},{"start":512.389,"end":521.528,"text":"不要再大砲倒小鳥了來 我們再看看以前的個案你從早上被問的同樣的案子以前為什麼沒有大搜索 沒有大收押"},{"start":523.127,"end":542.834,"text":"韓國瑜一千多個案子喔我想這個不起訴所分是在你那個人已經理由說得非常的清楚非常的清楚來 博定 你說理由來我們看看呢當初啊 綠營在高雄罷免高雄市長韓國瑜後來沒有起訴綠營地檢署的更高官第一個起訴書那個不起訴人在說什麼"},{"start":544.212,"end":571.137,"text":"他說在蒐集連署的過程裡面並沒有護意證系統等方式去核對跟比照身份證字號所以自義難去驅使說你要發覺有連署者是提議前就已經死亡的情形所以是被告等人根本就難以迎之刑死偽造文書罪當初這個檢察官是這樣提的這個理由現在存不存在"},{"start":572.048,"end":593.119,"text":"存在啊 再看看郭台銘 郭台銘更多耶郭台銘五千兩百七十一個 剛才民進黨在講他們比例比較低這個數目是這麼大耶這個案子第一個 沒有大搜索 更沒有大收押後來約談了三個主要的幹部對不對約談完以後 今年三月份 聽各位喔上個月 這個剛剛簽結喔"},{"start":596.645,"end":617.234,"text":"這兩個案子都沒事 結果你現在不只有事 你還大縮手大縮鴨你是不是有嚴重違反法律的比例原則好來 再看下一個人民現在更生氣的是什麼你有很多大案子要辦 我剛才說的你還要去辦 民進黨這個共諜案聯環報 這個不是影響更大 第二個打詐的案子啊今年三月份"},{"start":621.96,"end":643.437,"text":"台灣人民被騙了一萬六千多件損失的錢高達七十一億這每個案子可能都是破一個家庭甚至是幾個人可能會想不開的事情這多嚴重啊莫定 我們不要講多啦你跟我我們如果被騙個十萬塊你可能還了幾十天 一輩子搞不好都記得有些人是一輩子的居蓄 關財本都不見了"},{"start":644.773,"end":672.926,"text":"整個可能都家破人亡了你們有好好去打仗嗎你多一點心思去辦這個事嘛不是 我現在跟你講是比較你現在花了那麼多的人力這個打仗本來就是我們現在整個辦單人員就全力在這打仗所以那個成果我整個檢察官跟警方非常的認真在辦這個很辛苦嘛可是第一個是所以你現在把人力你現在把人力 把減掉人力移出去搞"},{"start":675.307,"end":702.106,"text":"去搞這個偽造文書稅你這樣不是對不起你們檢察官記不起調查局的人員嗎抓重點做嘛 這個是不是更重要是不是人民現在就說 我代表人民在問你你把打詐的事情做好不要把人力分出去做一些人民生氣的事情反正有任何的犯罪 犯罪嫌疑我想辦案人員都會 都會積極的你的人力有限嘛 對不對輕重緩急嘛 你現在這個該重的地方不重 該輕的不輕你怎麼可以不辦呢"},{"start":705.39,"end":716.576,"text":"你有辦啦 所以第一個公平那第二個就是委婉比例原則嘛你把最重要的事情多做才是重要的共諜案跟打詐來 最後我最後做一個最後做一個適合三個要求基於法律的平等原則不要雙標辦案不要讓人家覺得說案子碰到民進黨就轉彎了"},{"start":725.765,"end":746.887,"text":"所以請一座內你針對藍綠你在辦的狀況是怎麼樣給本席一個報告第二個依照比例原則你既然你在辦的這個偽造文書過往的人他這個連署請你把共諜案你們目前做到什麼程度也跟本席報告一下我現在不是只有本席要的全民現在盯著你們在看另外呢"},{"start":747.97,"end":771.691,"text":"各界現在在講 政府是濫用司法檢調的這個潛力 以大砲打小奶這個行徑我覺得不是只有對立法院負責你們應該公開開個記者會 也提出個說明以示眾議 不要讓你們基層的檢察官跟調查員接著說你們做長官的高高在上 聽不到基層的聲音也沒有去捍衛他們的這個形象一個禮拜都要一個公開說明 可以嗎"},{"start":777.049,"end":796.374,"text":"主席我要求這三個特別是第三項請給本席一個八卦然後你們對外要明確的說明好不好跟全民做個交代就麻煩照剛委員所說的處理我們年紀差不多啦台灣真的是在一個非常危險的狀況我們年輕的時候那麼辛辛苦苦建立的民主法治人權"},{"start":798.807,"end":804.152,"text":"趕快踩煞車 怎麼讓他回到一個公正公平好不好 那這我留給你啦好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1240,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時12分）請部長跟局長。"],["主席：好，麻煩部長、局長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，司法最基本的一定是要公正、公平，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個同意。"],["張委員啓楷：我看了一下目前罷免案的連署，兩邊去檢舉之後，關於中選會告發的案子，其中罷藍的（就是民進黨連署的）有15個案子，再加高虹安1案一共16個案子；相對這邊國民黨罷民進黨的17個案子，16比17。結果目前已經辦的，國民黨已經被辦了5個案子，0比5，這個有符合司法的公正跟公平嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個案件的案情不一樣，案情不一樣，我也不會干涉介入，我也沒有去參與了解這些事。"],["張委員啓楷：你有聽到你們基層的檢察官說你們這樣是不是變成司法打手了，怎麼會這麼不公平？你看，明明加起來是16比17，你再怎麼取樣都不可能出現這麼不公平吧！剛剛局長的意思，你剛才的意思是法務部檢察官這邊都沒有發查，你現在是把責任推給檢察官這邊嗎？"],["陳局長白立：沒有，檢察官有發查，但是應該是沒有全部，我們現在……"],["張委員啓楷：沒發查，你為什麼是0比5呢？為什麼出現0比5？你的意思是……"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，如果你有注意到的話，其實現在發動偵辦的都是一些死亡連署的狀況……"],["張委員啓楷：基隆林沛祥那一百一十多個不是死亡連署是什麼？"],["陳局長白立：那個不是，那個不是死亡連署，那個不是死亡連署。"],["張委員啓楷：他沒有任何的死亡連署嗎？來，你看……"],["陳局長白立：它不是。"],["張委員啓楷：你看中選會，來，你看中選會告發的條件是什麼？一件以上有涉及死亡連署或有其他疑似偽造的狀況，這裡面有多少？16個案，15加1包括高虹安的，有多少是有死亡連署的，你目前有辦一個案子給我看，有沒有？"],["陳局長白立：有，我們現在辦的都是死亡連署的，因為死亡連署……"],["張委員啓楷：你的意思是，沒有、沒有、沒有，局長……"],["陳局長白立：死亡連署就是一個很明顯的偽造。"],["張委員啓楷：你不要硬拗，不要硬拗，你不要閃避，不要閃避。這16個案子裡面，沒有任何一個案子是有死亡連署的嗎？"],["陳局長白立：這個要看個案的內容……"],["張委員啓楷：要看個案？藍軍這邊你已經辦了5個，另一邊16個，我問你16個裡面沒有任何一個有死亡連署嗎？"],["陳局長白立：其實對我們來說沒有藍綠……"],["張委員啓楷：這個要經得起考驗喔。"],["陳局長白立：這個非常經得起考驗，對我們來說其實是沒有藍綠，我們只是從死亡連署人數太多的這些案件，可能檢察官覺得這個也是比較嚴重的，所以優先發動偵辦。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，中選會是有1個以上死亡連署就告發了，這是第一個，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，那你應該同時辦啊，你有嗎？到目前……"],["陳局長白立：有啊，我們有在辦啊，你說基隆那一件……"],["張委員啓楷：你有在辦，辦到一個5比0？局長，局長，局長，你能不能給我一個答案？局長，現在這個司法的天秤嚴重傾斜嘛，用膝蓋看也知道，現在就是說你到底什麼時候要辦？你要公平嘛！我現在不是講藍綠的問題，司法是要公正跟公平的，什麼時候綠的才要辦？"],["陳局長白立：我們很同意，我們很同意委員說司法要公平，我們不是講藍綠。"],["張委員啓楷：你這樣有公平嗎？"],["陳局長白立：我們現在就是針對……如果委員去看那些死亡連署的狀況，你就會知道問題出在哪裡。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！我就問你嘛，綠的都沒有死亡連署嗎？都沒有是嗎？"],["陳局長白立：對我們……"],["張委員啓楷：15加1，包括高虹安這個案子，罷藍的15個案子都沒有嗎？現在在國會殿堂，現在是對著全民講話，局長。"],["陳局長白立：是，我知道、我知道。"],["張委員啓楷：現在要檢驗兩個，你什麼時候開始辦綠？"],["陳局長白立：一定禁得起考驗。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你在辦的時候有多少個有死亡連署是綠的發起的？"],["陳局長白立：一定禁得起考驗、一定禁得起考驗。"],["張委員啓楷：好，禁得起考驗，全民正在看你，你目前已經禁不起考驗了，0比5……"],["陳局長白立：不會啊！我們目前禁得起考驗。"],["張委員啓楷：接下來就看你的進度。","部長，我問你一下，我們的年紀都差不多，我跟你講一個比較沉重的事情，我們這個年紀經過戒嚴到解嚴，多少人為了臺灣的民主、法治、人權，不要說流血、流汗，連性命都丟了，像鄭南榕為了爭取言論自由百分之百，你們現在辦這個案子這樣辦，不只是沒有公正、沒有公平，我問你一個最簡單的，你應該是一個有民主素養的法務部長，全世界的民主國家當中，除了臺灣這一次國民黨的臺北市黨部被你們搜索了，之前連柯文哲家裡面跟民眾黨的中央黨部都被你們搜索了，在你的腦海裡面，全世界民主國家有哪一個國家檢調去搜索在野黨的辦公室，有沒有？舉一個例子給我聽！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我對這個是沒有研究，但是我們的案件本來就是……"],["張委員啓楷：美國如果共和黨執政敢去搜索民主黨任何一個辦公室……"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且這是權力分立，有犯罪嫌疑要搜索的話，這是要跟法院聲請的，如果法院認為沒有搜索的必要，那就……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我說我們的年紀差不多，我們經歷了整個民主進程，你現在「倒退攄」了啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有「倒退攄」啦！"],["張委員啓楷：對你的歷史定位，這是一個傷害，你要想辦法去補破網。"],["鄭部長銘謙：還是一直往前邁進啦！"],["張委員啓楷：往前邁進？我剛剛問你的是一個全世界的標準，全世界有哪個民主國家發生像最近這八、九個月以來，民眾黨的中央黨部被搜索、國民黨的臺南黨部被搜索及臺北市黨部被搜索，現在臺南、新北有5個人被你們收押，我現在問的是一個普世價值，全世界的民主國家當中，美國現在是共和黨執政，他敢去搜索民主黨的黨部嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，偽造署押、偽造提議，這本來就是破壞民主法治的基石嘛！所以這次大院在去年也通過了選罷法的修法，嚴懲這些偽造署押、偽造提議等這些未經他們同意的偽造。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我現在跟你講的，我再跟你講一次……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個本來就是……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我現在說的是你的歷史定位……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們的歷史潮流……"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼樣去捍衛臺灣的法治跟人權，我給你一個標準是說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有人可以容許這個偽造署押……"],["張委員啓楷：你去看看全世界的民主國家，有哪一個民主國家的在野黨黨部、中央黨部像最近這八個多月以來被這樣搜索，你們要禁得起考驗。你如果還在意的話，我講的話你還在意的話，你要想一想，夜深人靜的時候想一想你的歷史定位是什麼。","接下來，司法除了剛剛講的公正跟公平，比例原則很重要，對不對？比例原則也很重要嘛。關於共諜案，民進黨共諜案連環爆，你們有沒有好好去辦？相對的比例原則，你說有死人去連署，這是偽造文書、個資嘛，對不對？這是重罪嗎？國家安全、國家安全法這個才是重罪吧，七年以上啊！這邊是五年以下啊！結果你現在用大砲打小鳥，不只是5比0的問題，有需要去大搜索、大收押嗎？這個有沒有違反比例原則？"],["鄭部長銘謙：個案不同啦。"],["張委員啓楷：個案不同？這5個個案變成1個通案嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是通案……"],["張委員啓楷：結果5個通案的原則是什麼？就是大搜索、大收押嘛！不是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個犯罪嫌疑重大，有刑事訴訟法第一百零一條的這些要件的話，向法院聲請……"],["張委員啓楷：嫌疑重大？他的徒刑是五年以下，他是重大犯罪嗎？你要好好辦，你去辦共諜案、民進黨的共諜案……"],["鄭部長銘謙：關於能不能羈押，沒有說五年以下就不能羈押，這完全是回到法律、刑事訴訟法的法律規定以及案情、偵查犯罪所必要的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，已經有多少法界的人士，從學者到法官跟檢察官、律師在提醒你，嚴重違反比例原則，你都沒有聽進去嗎？不要再用大砲打小鳥了！","我們再看看以前的個案，你從早上被問的，同樣的案子以前為什麼沒有大搜索、沒有大收押？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有……"],["張委員啓楷：韓國瑜，一千多個案子哦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個不起訴處分的理由說得非常清楚、非常的清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你說到理由，我們來看看，當初綠營在高雄罷免高雄市長韓國瑜，後來沒有起訴，高雄地檢署檢察官在不起訴書裡面說什麼？他說，在收集連署的過程裡面並沒有戶役政系統等方式去查核比對身分證字號，自亦難期許得以發覺有連署者在提議前就已經死亡的情形，所以被告等人根本就難繩以行使偽造文書罪。當初這個檢察官是提這個理由，現在存不存在？存在啊！再看看郭台銘，郭台銘更多耶！郭台銘的部分有5,271個，民進黨說他們的比例比較低，這個數目字這麼大耶！這個案子第一個，沒有大搜索，更沒有大收押，後來約談了3個主要的幹部，對不對？約談完以後，今年3月份、上個月剛剛簽結，這兩個案子都沒事，結果你現在不只有事，你要大搜索、大收押，你是不是嚴重違反法律的比例原則？","再看下一個，人民現在更生氣的是什麼？你有很多大案子要辦，我剛才說了，你好好去辦民進黨這個共諜案，連環爆這個不是影響更大？第二個是打詐的案子，今年3月份，臺灣人民被騙了一萬六千多件，損失的錢高達71億，這每一個案子可能都會讓一個家庭破碎，甚至是幾個人可能會想不開的事情，這多嚴重啊！部長，我們不要講多啦，你跟我如果被騙個10萬塊，你可能會煩惱好幾天，一輩子搞不好都記得，有些人是一輩子的積蓄、棺材本都不見了，整個家可能就家破人亡了，你們有好好去打詐嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有啊！"],["張委員啓楷：你多一點心思去辦這個事情嘛，我現在跟你講的是比較，你現在花了那麼多的人力，部長……"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，關於打詐，本來我們現在整個辦案人員就是全力在打詐，所以打詐的成果……"],["張委員啓楷：我知道檢察官跟警方非常認真在辦，很辛苦嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們也要對這些打詐英雄……"],["張委員啓楷：可是第一個是……所以你現在把人力、把檢調人力移去搞這個偽造文書罪，你這樣不是對不起你們檢察官、對不起調查局的人員嗎？抓重點做嘛！這個是不是更重要？是不是？我就是代表人民在問你，你把打詐的事情做好，不要把人力分出去做一些人民生氣的事情。"],["鄭部長銘謙：反正有任何的犯罪、犯罪嫌疑，我想辦案人員都會積極去查辦。"],["張委員啓楷：你的人力有限嘛，對不對？有輕重緩急嘛，你現在該重的地方不重，該輕的不輕。"],["鄭部長銘謙：犯罪擺在你面前了，罪證明確的話，你怎麼可以不辦呢？"],["張委員啓楷：你有辦啊！所以第一個是公平，第二個就是違反比例原則嘛，你把最重要的事情都做才是重要的，即共諜案跟打詐。","我最後有三個要求：首先要基於法律的平等原則，不要雙標辦案，不要讓人家覺得案子碰到民進黨就轉彎了，所以針對藍、綠，你現在辦的狀況是怎麼樣？請於一週內給本席一個報告。第二個，依照比例原則，既然你在辦這個偽造文書、過往的人的連署，請你把共諜案你們目前做到什麼程度也跟本席報告一下，現在不是只有本席要的，全民現在也盯著你們在看。另外，各界現在在講，政府是濫用司法檢調的權力，這個行徑是以大砲打小鳥，我覺得不是只有對立法院負責，你們應該公開開個記者會提出說明，以釋眾疑，不要讓你們基層的檢察官跟調查員覺得你們做長官的高高在上、聽不到基層的聲音、也沒有去捍衛他們的形象，一個禮拜做一個對外公開說明，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以。"],["張委員啓楷：可以？OK。主席，我要求這三個，特別是第三項，請給本席一個報告，然後你們對外也要有明確的說明，好不好？跟全民做個交代。"],["主席：好，就麻煩照剛剛委員所說的處理。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們的年紀真的都差不多啦！臺灣真的是在一個非常危險的狀況，我們年輕的時候那麼辛辛苦苦建立的民主、法治、人權，來得及，趕快踩煞車！怎麼讓它回到一個公正、公平，好不好？我們一起努力一下啦！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}