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年齡是有逐步有點上升的一個趨勢"},{"start":1856.374,"end":1876.366,"text":"那針對勞動地的一個調查在112年度我們啟動了一個調查那我們調查的對象是以主力農家為對象大概是21.1萬戶的農家你們去做抽樣的調查那調查的結果顯示大概有6%的這些主力農家他有一個缺工的就是有一些缺工的一個現象"},{"start":1877.206,"end":1896.38,"text":"這些缺工的部分大概分為兩個部分一個部分是一個就是他需要比較長期的這種長期的一個員工那另外一部分是因為他季節性的採收需要一些臨時的這些員工那以長期的員工來講他缺工數大概是2345戶那缺工人次大概是4505次"},{"start":1898.621,"end":1909.206,"text":"人次就是以這樣子的一個數據他的缺工的樣態並不一樣那同樣的就是臨時缺工的部分缺工數大概有10731戶那如果說以缺工人次來看的話是86000多人次"},{"start":1916.289,"end":1932.134,"text":"那如果說以地區來看的話整個缺工不管是常務的員工或者是臨時的員工大概是以中部地區為主他的缺工的現象是比較嚴重接下來是南部的地區那東部的地區相對的是比較少的"},{"start":1934.326,"end":1950.196,"text":"﹗"},{"start":1950.676,"end":1969.014,"text":"一百十四萬一千多但是經過我們的一些努力各方面的一個努力來降低這些缺工的需求那也看到了一個滿顯著的一個成果他在不管是在整個的一個季節性缺工的部分有一個顯著的一個下降"},{"start":1970.46,"end":1985.055,"text":"針對農糧的部分其實也有這樣的現象然後畜牧的部分它的下降的趨勢更明顯對移工的需求顯現說我們目前的政策政策的推動是對於缺工事業的一個解決是有幫助的"},{"start":1986.869,"end":2010.616,"text":"接下來我想跟各位報告就是針對農業部門的一個缺工那農業部本身大概用兩個方面去做處理第一個方面就是我們想辦法穩定我們的人力的供給甚至於增加這個人力的供給那第二個部分就是我們想辦法去減少對人力的一個需求那針對人力的穩定跟增加的供給裡面"},{"start":2012.436,"end":2036.813,"text":"最主要是就是引入了這些外籍的移工來協助我們本身的一個農事的一個操作那到目前為止我們接受就是跟勞動部爭取的是大概一萬兩千人來做這樣的處理那包括還有其他的外國的青農跟農業的實習那除了外籍移工以外其實本國的這些"},{"start":2038.334,"end":2064.537,"text":"人員去增加農事的一個協助的部分也是非常重要的所以我們建立了區域性的農業的人力的調度那相對的我們成立了49個人力團那這個人力團每年穩定的招生大概1500個人那他服務的一個農場的家屬大概5000人那第二個部分是更重要的就是我們一直政策一直在推的就是當人力沒辦法滿足的時候我們想辦法去減少人力的需求"},{"start":2065.297,"end":2091.887,"text":"特別推動了相關的農機的積耕團跟農機的一個共享機制現在目前大概有15團跟5個專案去做為這種農事的一個服務業那整個移工因為今天的主題是針對移工的部分那我們先review一下我們現在目前的移工的一個開放歷程那其實108年我們就開始示範當初只是從乳牛開始就是外展的乳牛大概800人"},{"start":2092.667,"end":2107.117,"text":"到了112年的時候我們已經達到112000人左右所以相對的針對移工來解決我們部分的缺工問題其實人數的增加是對我們整個政策是有幫助的"},{"start":2108.993,"end":2129.224,"text":"整個移工的聘僱模式大概分為兩個模式一個模式是屬於季節性缺工的部分那這些季節性缺工的部分他是用外展服務的方式他最主要是由我們的農業會或合作社來聘僱那聘僱的時候他會根據當地的需求來做一個外展的服務"},{"start":2131.885,"end":2152.031,"text":"主要是針對季節性的缺工當然有需要的時候就是派遣出去另外一部分是長期性的缺工長期性的缺工最主要是我在這個農場或在這個畜牧場或是在這個漁務廊之上我幾乎每天都需要相關的人力這樣一個前提之下我可以自行聘戶來外籍移工來協助我的一個農事的操作"},{"start":2152.748,"end":2168.04,"text":"那整個申請的規範我想在這邊就請大家做參閱那最主要是合配比的部分那我們也非常的努力去爭取的我們現在在10人以下的這些農戶或農民團體他跟本勞跟外勞比他可以達到1比1"},{"start":2169.875,"end":2191.252,"text":"那如果說我們看整個移工的一個情況的話我想在農糧部分還是占多數大概是4000人蓄墨的話4000人那林業的部分是相對比較少那漁業的部分其實那從這張圖表可以看得出來那整個的一個移工的情況在做外展服務大概"},{"start":2192.213,"end":2199.6,"text":"有相關的2472人是在做外診的部分那6000多人是在做長期性的一個故工"},{"start":2201.072,"end":2224.67,"text":"如果我們去分析這些移工他從事的這些產業別的部分那最主要還是以農糧為主然後畜牧、赤枝那其他的包括養殖業跟林業的部分那如果說以派工的情形的部分來看的話那相對的就是還是以農糧為主那相對的外產服務可以佔的29%那畜牧的話大概整個的整體外產服務的話那大概佔的7.69%"},{"start":2227.765,"end":2248.416,"text":"除了人力的部分我剛才也提到就是說當我人力沒有辦法滿足的時候我一方面透過就是減少人力的需求那我們推動了非常多的農業的機械耕作那現在目前我們有15團5個專案來處理這個积工團的部分就是類似代耕中心的農事的服務業那它涵蓋的作物項有16種"},{"start":2249.477,"end":2269.812,"text":"那整個的耕作面積大概將近在3000多公頃左右那113年度的時候我們更期待更要進一步的在我們的新政策裡面我們的目標就是一個主要的產區的鄉鎮就是一個農事服務業就是一個雞耕團的農事服務業來協助這些需要工的一個情況"},{"start":2271.564,"end":2294.822,"text":"那在整個經濟作為部分大概分為幾個面向那第一個面向就是我們雖然說一萬兩千人是到目前的一個合配比現在目前大概有八千五百多人那我們預估在年底就會滿了所以我們現在也啟動了一些調查我們會再積極的來向勞動部來爭取他的一個緣額的一個開放能增加我們的勞動部的一個緣額"},{"start":2296.003,"end":2315.575,"text":"第二個部分是長期性的缺工的部分目前10年以下的農場是1比1的合配比相關的10年以上的這些農場它還是35%我們希望說透過我們的爭取也能夠把它降到1比1這樣的話我覺得這是一個非常重要的我們的關鍵"},{"start":2316.596,"end":2340.706,"text":"那相對的我們現在農場是越來越大那相對的動不動可能都超過10個人我們希望說10個人以上也能夠用一比一這個我想我們會努力的跟勞動部來爭取那除了人力的合併比以外還有一個非常重要的就是我們會降低很多的門檻就是從事這些農作物的一個門檻包括草皮或增加像包括草皮、芽菜"},{"start":2341.306,"end":2364.381,"text":"那水稻育苗已經有了但是它的面積現在的門檻比較高我們也希望做適度的調整包括使用菇類那對於短期的這些需要短期的這些缺工以外因為我們現在的這些外展工都是在同一個區域裡面做調派沒辦法跨區可是現在我們有非常多的一個同一種作物的收穫是從南到北"},{"start":2365.714,"end":2388.808,"text":"那換句話說當你這個做向水稻從南到北的時候你的代耕團就可以從南一直收同一個團可以從南部一直收到北部那也會減少了這些代耕業者的需求所以我們現在嘗試著去做這個這個外展移工可以跨區調派的一個計畫那也希望都透過強化的合作管理來擴大一個方式"},{"start":2389.968,"end":2417.155,"text":"最後我想跟各位委員說明就是我們農業部一直非常重視缺工的議題然後我們也分別針對兩個方式包括想辦法去增加人力那另外一部分就是當人力沒辦法滿足的時候我們想辦法去提高它的機械化自動化的一個程度來減少對勞力的一個需求那過程中我想我們隨時都在跟農民做相關的這些討論然後也解決他們的所謂的困難"},{"start":2417.961,"end":2418.421,"text":"好,我們謝謝部長的報告"},{"start":2442.185,"end":2466.954,"text":"我們現在勞動部的書面報告我們請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那委員勳答前主席台依照慣例我們做幾項的宣告每位委員發言的時間本委會6分鐘必要時延長1分鐘非本委會4分鐘上午10點半截止發言登記我們首先要請登記第一位的林黛樺委員發言請"},{"start":2470.765,"end":2471.106,"text":"有請部長我們請陳部長"},{"start":2479.145,"end":2503.716,"text":"委員長今天針對兩個議題一個是農業資訊安全一個是農業勞動力缺乏資訊安全的部分本席要提出一個案例我們來進行剖析討論第二個在農金署針對農業資訊的這兩個一個單位你們是否有公平對待針對南農中心跟農金資訊公司好再者再次我們農業勞動力匱乏好這邊部長要請您表態治安"},{"start":2508.158,"end":2532.553,"text":"是不是國安?如果是你能夠接受您的下面各部各屬施各單位違反治安原則嗎?第三個你能夠接受您所有下面的各單位在處理民眾爭議的時候是不公平的嗎?這三個您必須要執行表態我才能夠繼續的來跟您討論"},{"start":2535.234,"end":2537.115,"text":"您能夠接受您下面的單位違反治安的原則嗎?"},{"start":2553.919,"end":2554.799,"text":"我 我想"},{"start":2584.353,"end":2598.74,"text":"我們來看這個案例最近才發生在這個我就先以這張圖一個是神崗農會這是受害者他的旁邊呢這叫無辜的受害者"},{"start":2600.001,"end":2617.883,"text":"這邊有農金資公司南農中心 那農金資公司我說過 這家公司政府百分百支持 不要說政府啦 就是農業金庫百分百投資 但是他完全所有業務都在外包 沒有設計人員 所有的維護也是都是外包"},{"start":2618.464,"end":2629.813,"text":"好那也沒關係反正你們接受嘛你們認為農業部有錢嘛好但是呢他竟然允許外包公司進到神農區農會然後呢去竊取南農中心在神崗農會的資料而且呢我為什麼說竊取這已經是從商業競爭當中的商業間諜了"},{"start":2641.201,"end":2662.495,"text":"因為他用了一個任何的資訊系統其實這兩方不管南農中心或農經資他們是有約定軟體的甚至你看這個末端獨立系統南農中心都有規範的好所以呢你在農經資公司你運行的外包在約定作業範圍外的木馬城市"},{"start":2663.536,"end":2677.451,"text":"你用了這個在這個在這個這個神鋼農會當中的這個外包公司叫商商商商的末端來竊取南農中心的資料好也那這個呢你們來這邊"},{"start":2680.675,"end":2696.136,"text":"我怎麼知道從去年在今年5月的時候南龍中心檢測就發現到高頻率的交易異常性每6秒固定竊取共66000餘次經查是非約定的程式"},{"start":2697.025,"end":2711.744,"text":"好 這個都已經這個我為了齁好來我們來看你能夠允許你的部會農金屬是怎麼樣的處理他今天7月4號要開個會他也出席喔邀了農金資喔已經南農中心結果你們說什麼我只針對"},{"start":2714.447,"end":2740.314,"text":"受害者叫做神鋼農會信用部跟受害者南農中心的轉換系統的爭議來釐清問題你加害著農經公司你是不處理的我為了來質詢這個東西本期邀請了誰邀請了國安這個治安我們國家在處理這個治安是哪一個部門速發部我邀請速發部下面的治安院公共工程委員會經管會"},{"start":2741.954,"end":2743.055,"text":"我找了4個單位來來確認這個案情這樣的分析結果你看你們農金署啊"},{"start":2763.188,"end":2765.129,"text":"所以我請了四個單位來好所以呢這個下面下面"},{"start":2781.55,"end":2786.491,"text":"那這個議題最後您再來回應我先針對農業勞動力的問題我們現在農業農家戶啊76萬戶農家的人口數是239萬人我實質農牧的從業戶是多少76萬降為35萬只有一半在從事而這35萬當中的高齡農牧戶65歲上的佔46%"},{"start":2807.395,"end":2822.529,"text":"而我們來看產值這個是我們行政院主計處提供的在這個農林漁牧業這個的產值從108到我們去年112我的農業產值的逐年比是持平而且還逐年下降"},{"start":2823.71,"end":2842.407,"text":"當然這樣的微幅下降表示什麼我獲利期望低啊所以農業從業人口從在將近10年前104年這10年來我減少了5萬人關鍵原因就是我農業對年輕世代的吸引力不足所以農業去工不是未來是他是一個進行式"},{"start":2844.616,"end":2865.208,"text":"好 那這個你們現在的農業引進外勞是利益良善規則清楚但是是不盡現實你們的規定說這個10人以下一共一比一甚至容器這個我都沒有意見但是重點是你什麼叫不盡事實你說這個租約一定要3年以上你才可以申請外勞好 來往下"},{"start":2867.952,"end":2874.118,"text":"那你這個通常我們是小農喔我們大概1.1公頃大概一甲一甲大概就是呢我夫妻倆或者是我這個一個人到兩個人的作業能力我就可以處理完所以我平常我不可能去請一個外這個移工啊請不起啊但我什麼時候需要對於這小農來講我們是需要他在產收的時候採收的時候我是需要的所以本席是支持你剛才講的"},{"start":2893.575,"end":2923.575,"text":"臺湯"},{"start":2923.575,"end":2938.746,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":2939.666,"end":2963.171,"text":"我具體要求第一個請農業部接同訴發部因為訴發部既然是國安主責治安針對農經資訊公司及委外業者利用神鋼農會系統轉放從事非約定的軟體程式安裝進行調查如果這個行為屬實本席要求兩個要處理第一個農經公司撤換外包公司"},{"start":2964.091,"end":2970.637,"text":"第二個避免求援兼裁判農經資訊公司的董事長不應該由農業金庫副總監任為什麼?農經資公司是誰在支持農業金庫?百分百!農業金庫是誰支持?你農業部跟全國的農漁會耶我不相信我全國的農漁會跟我的農業部接受這樣的治安高風險的商業的一個竊取"},{"start":2990.394,"end":3004.748,"text":"這表示你農漁會都接受我如果種農這樣的一個外包公司隨意的進入到我任何一個農會來竊取資料那表示你農業部所有各部門的資料也都可以由外面的所有任何公司來駭客你"},{"start":3006.87,"end":3018.917,"text":"這是何等嚴重所以我要求我這個已經低度喔我還沒有針對農經資公司來做處罰我只說撤換他的外包公司怎麼可以這樣維護怎麼這麼一點這個資訊安全而且因為商業競爭已經叫商業間諜了商業間諜不是本期講的是我們這四個單位告訴我的"},{"start":3031.448,"end":3055.46,"text":"還有求員兼裁辦農經公司你不應該有農業金庫副總來兼任這是我認為應該該有的如果是屬實的話至少本期我也做出我自己該有的調查那你們也應該要做起該有的調查這是你要回應的第二個我農民跟農業機構有關外籍農業移工的部分評估以農業行為來認定或者是租地契約跟台糖一樣就是改為兩年以"},{"start":3056.34,"end":3064.626,"text":"以下呢我就可以兩年了我就可以來聘請外勞什麼叫做農業行為認定譬如說我雖然這樣才兩年啊可是我之前的租約跟一樣這塊土地同樣的租約行為那我已經租了兩年了那我是不是可以合併起來我就達到三年這是一種我沒改你三年但是可以用合併的那另外一種是好我的這個租約就是跟我台堂的這個租約是一樣的或者你就去協調台堂嘛"},{"start":3083.518,"end":3105.171,"text":"第三個這個是您剛才這個有講到的以區域地區農會來申請農業移工提供區域農業勞動力的短期需求請你簡單回應這三個問題治安農業缺工我想非常簡單的回應就是有關於剛才講的這些農經濟公司跟南農還有一些農會之間的關係我想我們會分兩個階段一個階段是先去釐清"},{"start":3106.792,"end":3122.278,"text":"現象是什麼現象是什麼然後必要如果是真正的那個現象如剛才委員所說的這樣的一個惡意的這種竊取的話那一定會去做很非常嚴肅的一個調查那我們必要者也會請那個塑化部來協助那第二個部分"},{"start":3122.978,"end":3144.322,"text":"我想針對農地的部分就是缺工的部分我們也一直在鬆綁那包括您剛才講的那個三年的部分其實現在我們已經有鬆綁了就是只要你拿出續業的部分但是相對的我們會用地的概念從事的行為去處理我想我們會持續的檢討你那三年沒解決你的規定因為你的辦法很清楚就三年台糖是兩年沒關係我沒有意見如果你要堅持就繼續讓大農戶沒有辦法已經外來吧好你們來檢討好謝謝"},{"start":3151.343,"end":3151.363,"text":"蕭麗芸議員"},{"start":3177.451,"end":3189.882,"text":"委員長部長早部長我想首先我們感謝主席拍定這個農業移工的問題那這個問題其實我們過去在委員會裡頭也討論過相當多次部長我讓您看一下"},{"start":3191.805,"end":3215.826,"text":"這個大概是我稍微整理一下我們整個農業移工開放的這些歷程包括說初期的開放事辦是只有800人而且主要是從這個應該是這個飼養畜牧業為大宗然後慢慢的包括這個納入這個農保勞保員工人數他們其實是就可以申請移工的人數一直到現在"},{"start":3217.367,"end":3217.627,"text":"8500多 大概七成"},{"start":3234.929,"end":3259.998,"text":"7層好所以你們預估到今年年底這1.2萬就會全部用到對是的那接下來怎麼辦我想跟委員報告現在我們已經啟動一個機制就是說像現在已經到7層的時候其實我們已經調查現在就是外面需要的大概8000人所以我們不會等到沒有的時候才開始向勞動部申請我們現在就會啟動一個機制去跟勞動部申請所以你們已經開始要跟勞動部談了嗎開始談了沒對"},{"start":3262.679,"end":3270.361,"text":"已經在跟他們做溝通 因為調查大概8000人啊那我們希望說在年底之前能夠銜接 不會說有一個空窗期"},{"start":3270.834,"end":3288.038,"text":"昨天勞動部簽署了跟台灣跟印度的合作的MOU看起來是沒有包含農業移工這一塊我覺得或許可以跟勞動部再談一下部長我要跟您講我們在講農業缺工的問題我現在就只舉我美農農會在申請這些農業移工的現況美農農會因為我們在美農種野蓮的非常多"},{"start":3298.82,"end":3318.093,"text":"所以他一共跟農業部申請了5次總共核准了97人這中間大概有逃逸3個那要給部長看一下現在申請農業移工看起來沒有那麼困難跟複雜但是這個薪資的比例"},{"start":3319.354,"end":3336.365,"text":"我們現在的所有的移工都必須符合台灣的勞基法勞基法它有規定它的工時跟最低的薪資比例這個是現在我們統計出來如果就今年度來看申請一個移工他的薪水大概要付到將近4萬3千塊"},{"start":3338.925,"end":3361.19,"text":"快要比本國的勞工還要高啦我覺得有可能而且還要負擔他的時數那對於野蓮我是講單一個產品野蓮就好野蓮今年的市場拍賣價格其實是不好的所以他請一個移工基本上他快要沒有辦法負擔這個移工的薪水那面對這樣的一個問題"},{"start":3363.01,"end":3391.702,"text":"包括工時很多時候他們你知道農民的工作他不是說從早上9點到下午5點很容易計算工時他常常有可能是必須清晨天沒有亮以前就開始工作中間像現在太陽這麼大他其實是沒有辦法工作的到下午5、6點太陽下山了又再持續他的下一個階段的工作所以他的工時計算也會產生問題那如果是這樣的話農業部跟勞動部之間有沒有想出一個"},{"start":3399.508,"end":3417.063,"text":"對農民來講是一個很沉重的負擔他要申請外勞也不是不申請也不是好那這個外勞來呢很多時候比如說像野蓮的我們還要必須跟他講這個是要泡在水裡一整天所以美農逃跑的那三個基本上是因為無法適應所以逃跑"},{"start":3418.362,"end":3427.429,"text":"今年年底我們有訓練所謂的御荷包採收御荷包的人所以你的農業移工來到台灣要搭配什麼樣的"},{"start":3428.729,"end":3458.729,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":3459.73,"end":3484.364,"text":"中南部有非常多的外配那如果我們能夠讓這一些外配的親人來到台灣依親打工我不知道我過去提出這樣的一個政策想法的時候農業部有沒有思考過那我的了解過去是被勞動部打槍但是其實我們剛剛講到了這一些農業的問題"},{"start":3486.085,"end":3494.59,"text":"新資甚至我想外配如果他們的親人能夠來到台灣依親打工對於新資的給付"},{"start":3495.638,"end":3516.52,"text":"是一個負擔會大幅減輕更重要的是這個外配在他的家庭裡頭他的家人來協助他的嫁過來的這個家庭來做這樣農事的工作其實相對來講他在這個家庭的地位是會大幅提高然後也能夠完整的協助這些農事作業部長您怎麼看"},{"start":3517,"end":3545.775,"text":"我提出來的這樣的一個建立方式謝謝委員的這些關心那我想幾個問題就是彈性工時的部分其實農業部現在是符合勞基法的四周所以他已經不受限在那個週休二日還有就朝九晚五的這樣的一個規範他是可以在四周裡面去做一個彈性的調整我想這個部分我想勞動部這邊已經把農業部納入了那第二個部分薪資的部分的確就是委員所說的他的薪資水平快要跟本國的一樣高了"},{"start":3546.215,"end":3548.276,"text":"現在目前能夠透過這種所謂的強化這種外展的的機能能夠跨區也好來做一個協助"},{"start":3564.744,"end":3584.321,"text":"所以跟部長你要知道我們現在透過所謂外長功能你要讓農會大部分的農會都不會願意做這樣的配合因為他要負擔的這些安全成本其實是遠高過你的想像對另外還有一個就是說如果說本身如果能夠結合我們現在在努力去調整10人以上的這個農場的合配比"},{"start":3586.002,"end":3607.064,"text":"你如果說有一個類似合作共同經營的這樣模式的話大家分擔這樣一個人力可能它的效率會比較高所以這個部分我想我們也會來努力您講的這個都是現在已經在做包括農場10人以上的這個農場合作社等等他們能夠來申請這些外在移工不過它的合配比不行這是3比1"},{"start":3608.095,"end":3633.21,"text":"對嘛,所以他其實還是少的嘛好,如果能夠變成1比1那當然這是一個得證啦但我講的這個所謂的一清打工這件事情我覺得這個其實真的是可以認真的思考啦我想一清打工以農業部來講是非常贊成那我們也跟勞動部溝通了非常久那基本上現在的問題是卡在勞動部說這樣的一個意見還是照原來的遊戲規則走啦"},{"start":3634.71,"end":3646.336,"text":"那用現在的遊戲規則去走而且是在我們的總配額裡面去扣那我覺得這樣的話反而沒有幫助你是說照我們原來申請外產移工的總配額下去扣我是覺得勞動部這個思維太過僵化了我認為應該帶著他們實際到"},{"start":3657.022,"end":3678.78,"text":"﹗"},{"start":3678.8,"end":3679.48,"text":"接下來我們請黃國昌委員請做巡討"},{"start":3708.412,"end":3734.754,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是麻煩有請部長我們再請陳部長喂吼部長好上一次你們說昌市的案子回函說已經移送北捷了請問什麼時候移送我都沒有記出來是五月底六月初的時候五月底六月初的時候我記得我都沒有記出來請這調查報告什麼時候做出來的"},{"start":3735.495,"end":3763.905,"text":"行政調查報告的過程大概在五月五月初五月大概是四月還是五月我們在調查因為沒有關係什麼時候做好的沒有最後的定版大概在五月的七應該是七號前後啦所以你們有一個定版的完整行政調查報告嗎對就是說完整的行政調查報告什麼時候可以交出來對不起我沒有聽清楚"},{"start":3764.95,"end":3791.144,"text":"剛剛你不是說到5月的時候有一個定版的行政調查報告嗎?那份行政調查報告什麼時候可以交出來?我想我們提供給委員的就是行政調查報告但是因為部分的這些資訊我們已經已檢地檢署的時候地檢調查的時候我們把時序先講清楚啦你行政調查報告完整做完了以後然後你接下來移送北檢現在交出來的行政調查報告是只有部分的內容對不對?是"},{"start":3792.768,"end":3821.841,"text":"為什麼不提供完整的行政調查報告你說會涉及到偵查不公開嗎來我秀給你看當初在處理八八會館事件的時候一樣有刑事偵辦我們的高檢署新北地檢署內政部警政署完整的行政調查報告全部都交出來為什麼農業部的做法不一樣難道我們的高檢署地檢署我們農業政部所交出來的行政調查報告都是違法的"},{"start":3823.066,"end":3838.095,"text":"你還是堅持不交就對了嗎?我跟委員報告齁,別的部位我不清楚齁但是在相關的這些我們今天調查報告裡面有涉及到已經移交給地檢署的部分那這個部分我們是根據政府公開自檢法裡面的相關的規定去做一個處理的"},{"start":3838.9,"end":3865.112,"text":"沒關係啊你有你的主張啊你的主張站不站得住腳我們以後會繼續追下去今天時間的關係我還有很多問題要問你們的次長跟媒體說日本進口的雞蛋沒有行政的問題結果話才講一天你們就公開承認了裡面最起碼就有關於倉儲的部分運輸的部分違反政府採購法對不對"},{"start":3868.018,"end":3869.279,"text":"針對2022年超市進口雞蛋,超市的服務費付了多少錢?"},{"start":3885.288,"end":3885.609,"text":"道貨買斷的價格怎麼計算?"},{"start":3901.328,"end":3916.184,"text":"那到貨買完的價格根據市長會的一個說明是他根據因為他是每個月都有的時候他會根據當月的日本的相關的這些資訊跟我們國內相關的這些資訊包括他的關稅等去做一個綜合評估"},{"start":3917.085,"end":3940.124,"text":"怎麼評估的數據可不可以交出來我想這個部分是一個相關的一個執行細節他那個評估沒有關係啦你現在講嘛沒有付超私沒有付超私任何服務費那我現在的問題就在想說原來超私是在做功德的那個價格裡面啊從超私日本進來一公斤均價多少錢"},{"start":3942.81,"end":3955.085,"text":"一公斤軍價多少錢我不是非常清楚來你計算完了以後一公斤的軍價大概一百二十四塊一百二十四塊這個錢到底怎麼出來的成本結構 細項可不可以交出來"},{"start":3956.51,"end":3976.106,"text":"我不是非常清楚說這樣子一個最後的價格的一個細項 因為他們本身是買斷的方式 那買斷的方式他們的經費是有一個... 你看嘛 你們列出來的淨重多少 發票的價格多少 除完了大概就一公斤多少錢嘛 你現在裡面講說沒有服務費嘛"},{"start":3978.549,"end":3986.487,"text":"現在我就在質疑啊現在大家在問的是這個超市的利潤在裡面一公斤124塊超市拿了多少錢嘛"},{"start":3988.137,"end":3990.278,"text":"大家在關心的事情是那個價格到底怎麼決定的嘛"},{"start":4009.17,"end":4014.313,"text":"你到現在我跟你說你說沒有服務費沒有關係阿那你總要有一個決定價格的機制吧有一個機制我想這個機制是可以提供的我所瞭解"},{"start":4031.583,"end":4038.287,"text":"決定的機制是可以提供,一定有一個決定的機制,但是決定的細節需要多久?需要多久?一個禮拜可以吧?錢早就付了吧?因為你一開始口口聲聲跟大家講說只有超輸有能力進口嘛"},{"start":4054.02,"end":4061.183,"text":"這個是你當初在回答的時候答覆的內容嘛我記得我沒有說只有超私才有能力進口今天沒這樣說來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":4083.666,"end":4088.132,"text":"是你們回答給我白紙黑字的欸來我們來看一下喔這個是關務署調出來的資料"},{"start":4092.52,"end":4092.68,"text":"是吧?"},{"start":4092.68,"end":4092.7,"text":"是"},{"start":4120.123,"end":4140.061,"text":"奇怪,那亮彩後面進來的這些蛋到哪裡去了?是給中央續產會嗎?我跟委員說明齁亮彩的部分是他的合約是2到4月那4月以後的所有的買蛋不管是任何貿易商進來的都是用貨到付款的方式這個非常清楚啊對,所以我現在還是在問你嘛當初你跟大家講的"},{"start":4141.348,"end":4151.235,"text":"是只有昌司有意願嘛但我從關務署調出來的看從這個B廠商進口的數量我合理判斷啊這個B廠商這個B廠商是我們來看一下具體的數量嘛我最後因為主席站起來了我只問一個最關鍵的問題"},{"start":4167.099,"end":4168.7,"text":"對阿 到目前為止 你說每一筆都可以提供 來來來"},{"start":4194.485,"end":4221.014,"text":"我給部長看我從6月14日所知的東西到現在沒回覆我的辦公室幾乎是打電話每天去求農業部的什麼時候可以回覆永遠的答案都是還在簽和還在簽和還在簽和今天部長說可以提供非常的好請問部長需要多久不要讓我辦公室的同仁每天打電話去拜託你們的國會聯絡人要一個資料我好像在乞討一樣"},{"start":4222.868,"end":4236.73,"text":"需要多久我跟委員說明齁就是每一筆我們付款的資料的日期應該都已經很清楚的這個表但應該都有我剛剛的問題是由超司取得輸入許可我跟你們調"},{"start":4238.103,"end":4257.208,"text":"你們檢驗所的輸入許可局裡面的人說好了但是在部裡面簽合現在公文流量到哪裡我不知道我今天請教我非常卑微的要求你非常卑微的請求你這個數字什麼時候可以提供我想我不敢因為我非常尊重立法委員"},{"start":4258.648,"end":4260.09,"text":"所以這個什麼時候可以提供?什麼時候可以提供?什麼時候可以提供?來來來,那個部長,因為時間後面委員都在等待,那部長"},{"start":4281.591,"end":4294.376,"text":"是不是就剛剛黃國昌委員所需要的資料你就在一個禮拜之內提供給黃國昌委員我想我們要先聽一下我們所知的內容所知的內容很簡單啊"},{"start":4295.836,"end":4303.281,"text":"因為我們是買斷的我們是針對誰給我們的是要輸入許可我看輸入許可上面的名義是誰就知道了嗎這個你已經說過了請你回到問題的本身輸入許可可不可以移工輸入許可是誰發的"},{"start":4326.041,"end":4350.459,"text":"公務署發的嗎?還是誰發的?不是啦!雞蛋輸入檢疫的許可是你們農業部發的欸檢疫的許可是我們可不可以提供?檢疫的部分是應該如果是有的話我們就應該可以提供可以提供需要多久?因為我到目前為止所知到現在要不到嘛需要多久?這個也需要一個禮拜我早就發公文去要了欸"},{"start":4352.438,"end":4352.919,"text":"所以我剛剛沒有講錯嘛我早就要了嘛"},{"start":4359.687,"end":4388.491,"text":"你公文還在履行嗎?需要多久?我們還是針對問題那請農業部剛剛委員所提出他有兩項兩項要的資料不只啦我剛剛只是藉由那個巡檔剛剛那個所知的部分公文他們那邊都有啦我要的資訊一項一項一項一項我寫得非常的清楚全部在後面我量給召委看這個是6月14日就要所知的內容這個是6月19日就要所知的內容"},{"start":4390.841,"end":4402.39,"text":"包括你剛剛答應的輸入許可那件簡易的輸入許可那件事情需要多久?三天之內給好不好?他如果出來三天之內一定可以給三天之內可以給嗎?簡易證的部分嗎?"},{"start":4404.714,"end":4428.961,"text":"檢疫症的部分嗎?前面所知的部分一併三天之內給可以嗎?如果我問的問題你說我不知道我沒有資訊這是機密那你就這樣回覆就好了嗎?所知剛剛最後一點就三天內回覆給黃委員其他的部分請一個禮拜之內務必要給黃委員好不好因為他已經從6月14 19已經陸續要給你們這個請"},{"start":4434.242,"end":4434.262,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":4456.232,"end":4466.197,"text":"我們請農業部照剛剛所說約定的時間請把資料送出 謝謝接下來我們請鄭正賢委員請做詢答謝謝主席我想請一下陳部長還有我們勞動部陳祖密好我們請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":4488.162,"end":4512.111,"text":"部長好 說實話 措施蛋的事情能夠扯這麼久 我們也真的是服了農業部 就是一個很簡單的一個蛋的缺蛋 然後要進口把它補足的問題竟然可以扯這麼久 然後也讓這個整個國會改革的合理化更具正當性 那國會改革本來就是應該的 可是從這過程當中我們看到了其實"},{"start":4513.792,"end":4535.463,"text":"光要讓行政部門的黑箱打開來是多麼的不容易所以我在想說立法院要有調查權這部分是很重要的不過因為我們今天最主要要講說農業的移工政策改善措施這個部分所以我在這邊也針對整個農業移工的部分來就教於部長跟我們勞動部的主密"},{"start":4536.844,"end":4565.862,"text":"我想請教一下因為那個整個移工的部分逃跑移工的部分真的是問題很嚴重到今年的2月為止的數字都超過8萬5千人我想說勞動部這邊應該資料是很清楚的然後我發現每次碰到逃跑移工的時候勞動部這邊的說法都是直接表示說會你修法重罰非法雇主非法仲介可是每次都這樣用"},{"start":4566.902,"end":4585.527,"text":"四月份的時候碰到這個問題的時候我看到新聞資料當中你們也還是這樣講可是過去這麼多年每次勞動部都是這樣回應可是說提修法然後都沒有提那你們在四月份這邊的時候你們也特別提到今年"},{"start":4587.568,"end":4596.644,"text":"6月份的時候會開始處罰然後也打算要再提修法的部分請問這個部分大概什麼時候會正式送到我們立法院來?"},{"start":4600.613,"end":4623.519,"text":"謝謝委員的一個吹詢這個部分之前我們在針對就業服務法要重罰非法僱用跟非法媒介這個部分呢原來的政策方向一直是如此政策方向如此可是很多年據本席瞭解108年不是送進行政院可是怎麼都沒有送到立法院來呢因為在不同的這個"},{"start":4624.859,"end":4625.72,"text":"所以何部長現在是要送還是不送?"},{"start":4650.783,"end":4669.04,"text":"目前我們在整個法案已經重新政院申請要撤回來重新再研議當中撤回來要再重新研議是回到後續進度怎麼樣給本席一個很清楚的一個說明那因為我們很希望說如果說要怎麼樣去做能夠解決整個臺灣的一個移工"},{"start":4670.069,"end":4670.529,"text":"謝謝主秘在整個的那個我國產業"},{"start":4691.624,"end":4715.736,"text":"在缺工的狀態當中最嚴重的三個部分大概就是農業啦然後營造業跟長照我想這部分應該是很清楚的一個狀態那我們今天就針對農業缺工的部分來就教一下陳部長因為我看到我們的報告資料裡頭下一頁先看下一頁我看下一頁的資料裡面"},{"start":4717.878,"end":4743.595,"text":"右邊是你的那個農業部的一個報告就是農業移工政策改善措施的書面報告裡面你提到說我們其實目前開放農業移工是1.2萬人是很清楚然後勞動部核發出來的聘僱許可人數到目前為止是8505人很清楚對不對是然後你也特別提到說我們今年年底預計1.2萬人會用慶對不對是"},{"start":4746.997,"end":4757.472,"text":"所以這1.2萬人提到了就是我們常態性的缺工是1.2萬人可是我們季節性的缺工是20萬人次 對不對"},{"start":4758.995,"end":4785.158,"text":"對 這個就全部包括在一起的 理解 那我全部包括在一起是什麼意思 1.2萬人裡面 有一部分是做季節性的 有一部分是做常態的 理解 所以我這邊有整個列出來喔 就是季節性就是外展農務的部分嘛 外展農務的部分 2472人對 我知道 所以說我要提的狀態說 我們提的人次的部分是怎麼去定義人次的問題 20萬人次"},{"start":4788.584,"end":4813.581,"text":"人次是怎麼去定義這個人次的問題我們那個人次是從主力農家裡面去抽樣以後然後去詢問他這一戶如果有缺工的需求我們就把它當作戶數去計算那有一部分是他可能是缺幾個人有沒有我們就會去算人次的次的概念不是用一天來算對不對"},{"start":4814.321,"end":4816.543,"text":"所以我們現在已經啟動了一些調查調查的結果大概還需要8000人在這個階段還需要8000人"},{"start":4841.442,"end":4856.684,"text":"所以我們現在已經啟動了就是要跟勞動部去爭取這樣的一個8千人另外8千人嘛對不對所以我們希望說最後增加到2萬因為爭取還有一段時間我們希望能夠銜接到年底的時候用完的時候他就可以用8千人來處理"},{"start":4857.445,"end":4873.918,"text":"謝謝部長我這邊我要特別提到一個有關於外展農務的部分因為外展農務這邊的時候他就是很針對季節性的一個去支援對不對那我們看到目前這邊的時候呢你們提出來的數字是"},{"start":4874.899,"end":4893.649,"text":"拜訪人數是3000人可是我看到另外一個統計數字的時候是稍高一點可是人數是一樣的可是我要提的情況是說我們對於外展農務當中的時候目前還沒有滿額有一個很大的問題就是因為他們有季節性所以他們會有農閒的時候那農閒的時候要怎麼去補助"},{"start":4894.249,"end":4894.769,"text":"我跟委員"},{"start":4913.056,"end":4938.664,"text":"報告分兩個部分一個部分就是說有時候農閒的時候因為原來的外展服務是不能跨區的所以當這個區域閒的時候它就比較麻煩所以我們現在推動可以跨區服務因為一個東西收穫的時候它可以跟著一直走所以它幾乎每天都有一樣的所以現在開放到可以跨區那有沒有可能可以跨業比跨業的部分我們曾經努力過但是不同的行業它有勞動契約"},{"start":4939.804,"end":4954.301,"text":"就非技術性的工作有沒有辦法去跨業支持因為有一些公司他週休二日我們都希望說週休二日可以來農業但是相對的他說農業很忙結果禮拜一就打瞌睡了"},{"start":4954.761,"end":4966.512,"text":"所以他牽涉到不同產業的特性因為我覺得這部分我會提到一個跨業的一個支援的部分其實就是要解決就是外在農務這邊的時候他會有季節性農閒問題所以也請這邊的時候跟農業部跟相關的跟勞動部相關的單位我們去做一個跨部會的一個協調對我們會來討論"},{"start":4975.481,"end":4997.644,"text":"接下來我要講的狀態是我們看到所有經察院這邊一個資料齁經察院這邊提出來資料當中的時候我們看到移工失聯率齁農業的體系就是比例最高的那這個數字齁因為它是112年的目前大概11.92%左右你說農業的部分是不是對農業的部分"},{"start":4998.625,"end":5018.424,"text":"所以你要特別提到說 農業部分現在並沒有比整個一般的數字來得高 是一樣高的 對不對 我們8萬5千人跟74萬個移工來說 算起來也大概是11%左右對 11% 因為現在目前整個 整個失聯的大概3千人左右 大概有沒有 總共啦 移工的部分有4 將近500人 所以他11%左右啦"},{"start":5021.587,"end":5034.258,"text":"所以你說現在監察院提供的數字是比較舊的數字你現在最新的數字的時候農業的移工系統的比例在11%左右對不對那這個部分我就再請部長這邊再給我們更詳細的一個數字那我這邊我要提到一個狀態是現在很多"},{"start":5044.966,"end":5060.253,"text":"我提到一個狀態是因為現在很多其他產業的移工就黑工的狀態很多都集中在農業部門那在很多的茶園、果園裡面據說基本上都是逃跑的外勞"},{"start":5062.294,"end":5086.317,"text":"我希望農業部這邊的時候能夠想一個更完整的方式不要讓農業體系因為缺工太嚴重去容納了很多其他產業的一個逃跑外勞然後導致我們的社會當中出現另外一個不安定的狀態好不好?農業缺工情況我們很理解可是我們希望農業不要變成逃跑外勞集中的大本營"},{"start":5086.917,"end":5114.505,"text":"了解,我們會努力的想辦法降低這樣一個現象OK,謝謝好,謝謝接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做詢問主席、各位委員,來請部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":5123.562,"end":5142.336,"text":"部長很早辛苦了今天的主題非常重要從你們的報告裡面近5年農林移木就業人口遞減這是一個事實112年我國農林移木就業人口50.9萬人"},{"start":5148.74,"end":5177.215,"text":"比111年減少2.1萬如果跟108年來比的話更是減少了5萬人真的是一個非常嚴重的數字這個顯示農業人口而且從年齡層來講這個都是高齡者中高齡者而且不斷的會成高齡化這是事實其他的勞工也是一樣當然跟我們的"},{"start":5179.236,"end":5201.203,"text":"臺灣的這個人口結構也有關係第一個是大家年齡增加了然後又是因為很嚴重的這個少子女化都是一個面臨的一個問題所以從這個圖表裡面你可以看得非常非常的清楚那這個整個"},{"start":5203.995,"end":5219.842,"text":"從106到111如果我們從這個近5年常顧及臨時員工短缺的情形來看就可以從你們的報告裡面可以怎麼樣去了解實際的一個狀況那這個整個到113年5月底"},{"start":5228.567,"end":5257.985,"text":"根據勞動部的報告在台農業移工7529名從事農林移牧及養殖移業工作最多現在在台灣除了我們的農業的部分其實其他的一般的勞工製造業營造業各方面也都切"},{"start":5259.304,"end":5266.62,"text":"所以這個部長啊,你們在這個行政院到底有沒有跨部會的討論過這方面的問題?"},{"start":5269.482,"end":5269.622,"text":"這個我在"},{"start":5296.711,"end":5321.836,"text":"應該是上上一屆第9屆現在是第11屆其實我在第9屆的時候就建議建議行政院應該要成立一個少子擬化辦公室但是他們不理不睬完全沒有因為這是臺灣很重要的問題現在不是只有農林螢幕跟一般營造各方面的勞工未來"},{"start":5323.686,"end":5348.058,"text":"未來我們的軍人也是以後都要外籍軍人了現在願意去當兵的越來越少那薪水又很低所以這個部分這是一個非常嚴重的問題我就不知道為什麼這個行政院一直不成立這個少子女化辦公室的一個推動怎麼樣去解決這方面的問題"},{"start":5349.31,"end":5366.777,"text":"所以這個當然很多責任都是在衛福部跟行政院這個部分這個是一個很嚴肅很重大的一個問題所以這裡也很難跟你要求這是我們農民的一個問題這個是要去解決的部分好我接下來這個還是要談"},{"start":5379.619,"end":5394.035,"text":"我第一次談超市淡超市進口淡當這個事件發生的時候真的是不可不可思議了作為一個以前叫農委會"},{"start":5395.672,"end":5422.649,"text":"農委會依照稀木法第25條成立財團法人中央續產會然後進口這個農業部要補助你要補助補助都說要審核啊一億七千多萬補助要審核啊我這個外行的想也知道"},{"start":5424.226,"end":5436.213,"text":"一個超市這麼小的資本額然後他要進口他哪知道巴西有蛋啊部長巴西進口多少蛋"},{"start":5439.15,"end":5454.044,"text":"應該是五千多萬顆因為總計是一億五千多萬顆那巴西的部分巴西多遠?巴西離台灣多遠?多遠啊?那個槓桿是不是沒辦法保存嗎?一定是壞蛋嘛!"},{"start":5454.775,"end":5456.776,"text":"事實上部長不要替他們說話,我不要讓你牽扯"},{"start":5474.343,"end":5496.895,"text":"你沒有實際調查,你又不寫調查報告,你又拿不到他很正確的,按照你們的說明啊,我都看啊,你們的說明,說你們也沒有調查前,你們去調查,所以不要...沒有,我是針對蛋的部分。沒有,到底他那個船到底有沒有完成,那個設備是不是都很完整?"},{"start":5498.395,"end":5525.323,"text":"我是懷疑啊這麼短的時間最主要他怎麼知道巴西有蛋啊對不對絕對是都全部從中央市場會我不講說你們農業部有怎麼樣過節啊從中央市場會到外交部到什麼什麼什麼全部是一團一條鏈啊不然他怎麼知道誰知道巴西有蛋啊"},{"start":5529.157,"end":5550.148,"text":"巴西是全世界供應雞蛋的一個大宗國家至少你一定要搶便嗎?那就把調查報告給我不是不是我現在講的就是巴西本身的蛋因為巴西的國家是出口蛋現在你又不好好調查你又說你沒有無錢調查他是依矽目法"},{"start":5553.217,"end":5573.711,"text":"主管機關是你農業部,然後你建築成立的經費都是你的,相關的這些制度都在,你當然有調查權啊,怎麼會沒有呢?對不對?"},{"start":5574.977,"end":5602.297,"text":"好 這個是要調查 你說你沒有調查錢就交給不是 我要跟委員澄清一件事情就是說我們在行政調查的部分我們針對續展會都有做內部的調查 這沒問題我們說我們本身行政權沒有辦法去觸及的就是因為有些委員認為就是說貿易商之間的貿易的關係到底是什麼樣的關係那他們基本上是司法人的關係那以農業部的部分是沒有辦法直接觸及的所以"},{"start":5603.678,"end":5605.401,"text":"你們已經有調查的就認為你們的職權範圍內對是在我們的職權範圍內我們會調查的"},{"start":5617.875,"end":5620.717,"text":"最後財團法人法制定之後你們這些就要配合修正了"},{"start":5645.526,"end":5645.546,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":5681.946,"end":5690.637,"text":"接下來我們請楊瓊英召委諮詢主席楊瓊英發言 邀請部長請部長"},{"start":5697.11,"end":5717.715,"text":"副部長,我們今天討論農業界的缺工我記得在107年開始我們努力的把這個問題檯面化終於在108年以事辦的方式800人率先DP執行到現在我們所統計出來"},{"start":5719.675,"end":5746.304,"text":"顯性的：引信還不說顯性的大概我們需要的這一些移工的缺口應該會有將近兩萬人那目前當然第二階段一萬兩千人執行到現在大約有七成左右進來 對不對對大概七成嘛那在這樣的情況之下我們在當地地方還是"},{"start":5747.568,"end":5747.588,"text":"拜訪"},{"start":5777.848,"end":5781.473,"text":"我們務必要把它解決那也聽到剛剛部長您說的我們現在一萬兩千人用了七成那我們還要盤點了八千人所以這些你現在跟的對接介面因為到今年要到了那怎麼辦呢請說明"},{"start":5798.517,"end":5820.57,"text":"我想我們現在目前就是為了防止說年底以後就斷了一段的時間,所以我們排了8000人,8000人分為農林渝蓄這個部分因為我們負責過來,然後現在就積極的跟勞動部去爭取,去說服他其實勞動的缺工是必要的,來做一個補充"},{"start":5821.01,"end":5838.216,"text":"我們當你的後盾阿你有信心一定要爭取到嘛對不對我想勞動部也非常支持農業部的一個提案他們也非常重視阿我們要的是結果再到年底這個界面一定要對接成功繼續加油我們有信心那我們有信心我就給你獎勵鼓勵"},{"start":5840.537,"end":5860.425,"text":"接下來我們要討論的我們在基層因為我們的這個農業的技術訊息萬變而且行業別也訊息萬變原因裡頭比如說我們的多肉植物現在是很多人不管辦公室大家都非常喜歡這個創造了很多的產值對不對對"},{"start":5862.346,"end":5890.196,"text":"對"},{"start":5890.556,"end":5907.943,"text":"但是目前草皮的類別還沒有辦法加入這個行業怎麼辦我跟委員報告特別是我們針對一些新興的這些比較需要的像草皮像一些菇色這些更需要的上一次本席在跟你討論的時候連花卉都沒有最後你加進來對我現在6月7日的時候我們已經新的部分我們會跟勞動部爭取然後意義方面我們會把它降低門檻"},{"start":5916.846,"end":5917.666,"text":"所以本期請教草皮的部分會放寒這是務必"},{"start":5938.232,"end":5950.137,"text":"對 我們已經有提案到勞動部去了增加的類別 草皮還有什麼?菇吧 芽菜 芽菜非常的重要 菇 菇在我的心色 我們現在連菇 菇菌種都我們農會自己來協助"},{"start":5959.84,"end":5980.494,"text":"這是為國爭光啊 為國爭光 所以菇類 草皮都會在這一次 芽菜 什麼時候會公布我想我們在時任程局長一定會跟勞動部協調 然後跟他爭取你預估的KPI的時間點在什麼時候我都希望在年底之前都能夠完成啦 當然越快越好啊"},{"start":5980.936,"end":5989.878,"text":"不可能到年底,現在才6月!你怎麼可能半年?你不做事嗎?怎麼省也不要省到半年呢?大家都知道非常的迫切需要啊!我們農民一天都不能等欸!"},{"start":6003.041,"end":6024.733,"text":"加速審查 儘速開放 草皮 香菇 菇類 營養 芽菜都要開放因為它有一部分還要修法部長你真的要謝謝我們台中地區的草皮 像我們的永旺公司"},{"start":6026.274,"end":6041.26,"text":"二三十年全家董總動員不斷的在推陳初心為我們國家賺了這麼多的稅所以我們要全力支持他像我們的香菇我們做到被人欺負之後我們甚至農會你們輔導的我要謝謝我們自己"},{"start":6045.894,"end":6047.034,"text":"我們現在三天現在一共多少?"},{"start":6075.905,"end":6077.708,"text":"25.5你看一直盤上個禮拜27.5現在25.5那我們的批發價本來是大概39塊"},{"start":6090.655,"end":6110.761,"text":"甚至有人說再來給我第一家好辛苦一箱甚至一箱一箱300塊怎麼辦您上次跟我本席討論的從寡產機那麼你說一個月我們要有這個50萬支你要維持兩個月維持兩個月嗎維持兩個月每一個月增加淘汰50萬支應該是60萬120變成180"},{"start":6120.646,"end":6126.214,"text":"60萬隻 一隻補助多少 20塊 一隻補助20塊部長你冷靜去想好不容易生出來的雞蛋 過量甚至要去餵豬 心痛啊"},{"start":6135.546,"end":6159.253,"text":"接下來我們要看到人民的納稅錢因為你的產銷沒有去安排好我們還要一支補助20塊這都是人民的納稅錢你的產銷機制你現在希望控制在2400萬克 對不對你現在希望控制這樣子那所以本席也具體給你建立你的產銷機制"},{"start":6161.604,"end":6165.406,"text":"你的產銷機制必須好好的去盤點好不好你沒有去盤點一架子又要我們補助一隻寡產母雞20塊這都是我們的錢欸60萬隻double120萬隻又要花多少錢啊產生出來的雞蛋還要送給豬吃哇這個是他存起來還要冷藏還要電費農民苦哈哈雞農苦哈哈欸"},{"start":6190.39,"end":6206.655,"text":"不可以如此你去盤點我們要怎麼樣在產銷能夠平穩你把數量資料給本席好不好好最後一個議題我給你也就是你知道本席非常關心的我們流浪的遊蕩的這些犬貓"},{"start":6207.881,"end":6228.3,"text":"那我們現在有說啊天啊天啊的機制你的SOP流程你整個要完善啊我說你今天手術之後你應該要有讓他們幾天的觀察期才可以回治嘛你現在第26條告訴我你們告訴我只要一天"},{"start":6229.561,"end":6257.034,"text":"一天可以嗎?腸子破掉了肚子也破了這怎麼辦啊?可以嗎?所以本期具體建議你應該要將這個TNR的手冊裡面要嚴格的去落實到它上面基層都建議回治的時間要手術後的五天部長你認為呢?"},{"start":6258.627,"end":6276.653,"text":"我覺得在整個在回遲的之前一定要確保動物的福利這是一個最大的一個前提那你東東一天肚子破掉也讓他出來他如果結紮以後有一些傷口如果說要看當時的情況我覺得一天可能太早啦我覺得要確保動物的福利是一個前提這個基本"},{"start":6277.779,"end":6296.489,"text":"第一件希望五天我希望你去盤點至少要三天好不好好不好你把數字告訴本席因為你們更離譜叫說回字過去肚子破掉的說請周邊的居民你請看一下他到底在哪裡所以本期第二項建議第一個時間點你們去盤點本期具體建議至少要三天回字第二個具體建議手術之後也應該要有放晶片你們去研議"},{"start":6307.354,"end":6320.822,"text":"這樣子你才可以管控這一支到底跑到哪裡去啊不然你會製造第二個問題嘛好不好我覺得委員的建議非常正確就是說當我捕捉以後再回制的時候應該放晶片啦如果沒有的話我們會強我也要求啦"},{"start":6322.483,"end":6347.542,"text":"接下來才能有效的追蹤對 我們才能夠達到我們才有結果嘛 對不對好 我也謝謝你同意本席所提出手術之後結紮之後你必須要放晶片讓所有的人都能夠安心嘛好不好那第一項就是以照顧我們的這個犬貓牠動物牠的安全為基準本席具體建議是三天你要把時間告訴本席 好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":6357.313,"end":6369.457,"text":"接下來我們請謝一芬委員請做巡檔謝謝主席 我想要請陳部長 我們再請陳部長委員長"},{"start":6378.325,"end":6393.432,"text":"部長早其實我看到你們的報告當中你已經瞭解其實我們現在農業的這個勞動人口其實在50歲以上的勞動人口都算是年輕是不是以農業來說是不是"},{"start":6399.758,"end":6419.43,"text":"平均是53歲啦那我先提供一個數據就是現在目前的那個主計總數調查是50.9萬那其中如果說大於65歲才11%換句話說65歲以下的大概接近大概90%左右那50歲以上的呢"},{"start":6420.371,"end":6425.698,"text":"50歲以上的齁我這邊的數據是有小於45歲的大概12.6萬人然後45到64的是27.3萬人這樣推估起來大概20萬人左右"},{"start":6431.437,"end":6451.574,"text":"所以大部分都是在50歲上下對上下這個部分那代表了我們其實農業的缺工是非常嚴重的嘛大家都你也你也非常清楚是那在農業缺工裡面你又你的報告也提到了我們的臺灣的是以小農為主是"},{"start":6452.955,"end":6466.037,"text":"那小農的缺工他如果要自己去找工人或者是引進勞工是不是比較困難很多人是用合併的方式那這個部分怎麼樣解決這個外展農業服務"},{"start":6467.389,"end":6493.073,"text":"我跟委員說明就是因為請一個外籍移工的話成本大概4萬塊左右所以你如果自己是小面積的你去請一個外籍移工的話非常困難我覺得那個會把你的收益都吃掉所以我們是鼓勵用合作社的方式共同經營的方式去處理那第二個部分就是我們會強化這些外展的移工有跨區協助的一個功能"},{"start":6493.393,"end":6514.452,"text":"可是過去你們也有所謂的就是說我們的就是週期性的就是勞動的人力的有我們還是有但是過去就是成效不彰啊第一個有一些就是不願意做那有一些不願意留下來那你們未來怎麼樣子改善這些問題"},{"start":6515.533,"end":6530.458,"text":"我想分為兩個層次就是我們會強化現在本國的人力團46團裡面大概1500人能夠真正的達到對季節性缺工的一個需求能夠滿足到第二個部分就是有一部分可以用機械化自動化替代的部分我們會"},{"start":6531.358,"end":6556.156,"text":"去組成一些農事服務業然後透過機械化的部分去來協助他們去做處理那第三個部分是有一些像高接力有沒有我們用人機輔具的方式是節省他的同樣的人但是能夠增加他的效率對但是我們知道像水稻、雜糧等等可以機械化但是很多的例如我們剛才說到的花卉"},{"start":6557.036,"end":6573.829,"text":"對,花卉果樹都是比較困難的花卉或者是菇類或者是其他的草皮、芽菜等等都是困難的那這個部分怎麼解決我想第一個部分就是我們會降低他申請的門檻就是我們會重新評估"},{"start":6574.309,"end":6593.797,"text":"議員．"},{"start":6594.867,"end":6622.592,"text":"還有大家關注的蛋的問題去年是缺蛋今年卻是蛋過剩我想要請問部長從你從整體的供需的角度來看為什麼會發生這樣子的問題我想分為兩個層次就是說我們在整個的雞舍的升級過程中有一部分已經升級了它的產蛋效率又變高但是他們"},{"start":6623.803,"end":6624.243,"text":"另外一個問題是我們現在的消費量"},{"start":6638.814,"end":6639.894,"text":"對,所以我們一直呼籲我們的消費民眾就是"},{"start":6663.122,"end":6664.283,"text":"在這個問題上面消費者跟農民同樣的受傷"},{"start":6679.628,"end":6705.401,"text":"是不是?消費者也沒有享受到現在蛋過剩他們低價的便宜而農民卻又受到了蛋產量過剩的問題是不是?那農委會這個也要解決啊是不是?對我們現在有一部分就是在跟超市賣場合作就是他們供應的消費端的這些蛋能夠有一些比較平價的方式去刺激他們"},{"start":6706.241,"end":6720.554,"text":"那部分的這些超市賣場已經開始有這樣的行動了所以什麼時候會開始沒有這個是我們在跟超市賣場協調那超市賣場有一部分他已經開始有降價的一個空間那我們希望說這個降價能夠帶動"},{"start":6722.571,"end":6737.337,"text":"好 那希望說降價的問題不會再影響到產地蛋的售價好不好因為你這樣子對 這樣會惡性循環下去我們這樣子這個雞蛋的問題永遠都沒有辦法解決是不是"},{"start":6738.632,"end":6754.034,"text":"再來就是我昨天特別去了解了現在我們農業部在推廣的就是希望輔導農民使用青蛮樹來吹芽是不是"},{"start":6755.955,"end":6768.287,"text":"但是我發現了我在觀摩當中我發現一個非常大的問題就是你們認為青蛮樹的導入農民可以自己的去"},{"start":6769.554,"end":6769.574,"text":"是﹗"},{"start":6796.256,"end":6816.777,"text":"過去我們在希望輔導農民用青蟎樹來吹芽的時候結果現在又發生了這樣子就是第一個估算的問題第二個還發生了氣候的因素也跟過往不同了現在因為氣候變遷的因素導致"},{"start":6818.439,"end":6835.964,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":6836.67,"end":6860.721,"text":"我們吹牙的這樣子的一個效果的農藥過去也是農委會推薦克美素那克美素目前在食藥署並沒有定任何的殘留那在沒有定殘留情況下他們可不可以用藥那不能用藥的情況下怎麼樣子解決目前吹牙的問題部長"},{"start":6862.369,"end":6862.869,"text":"當然你現在都是優化技術"},{"start":6883.601,"end":6901.01,"text":"但是我說的是農民過往他們就已經習慣因為這個東西他們過往是用外包的方式所以他們本身就沒有具備吹牙的這個技能嘛那我們今天如果要做這樣子的時候你也要花一些時間去導入嘛"},{"start":6902.731,"end":6926.317,"text":"那對於農民這樣子的一個你剛才說的你要誘導他進入這個政策的時候你必須要給他誘因嗎那在這個部分青蠻樹的部分你怎麼樣子提供他們誘因啊過去我們農業部說要導入青蠻樹是希望可以先減青蠻樹這個用藥的價格就是這個催壓劑的價格那怎麼樣子做相關的補貼"},{"start":6932.439,"end":6944.607,"text":"我想我們會去思考一些產業的輔導的一個產業的協助的作為但是我們基本上不傾向直接用因為藥的部分我們很少用"},{"start":6945.472,"end":6945.592,"text":"我瞭解"},{"start":6964.017,"end":6988.787,"text":"這個東西是當初就是說我們在當初在協助他們做這個相關的這個吹牙祭的這個就是使用青蠻樹這個過程當中我們希望可以就是說讓所有農民慢慢的去使用但是你去使用的時候我們又發生了氣候的問題導致於他們又要使用新的藥"},{"start":6989.787,"end":6989.907,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":7022.077,"end":7029.443,"text":"這個議題真的很重要連我們的計時器都跳起來了所以部長加油接下來我們請李議員請做巡檔謝謝主席請陳部長再請陳部長"},{"start":7044.94,"end":7066.474,"text":"部長,我國的經濟從農業社會一直轉型到工業社會到現在的以科技的這個產業供應鏈為支柱那尤其要提升我們國際的競爭力我們看到產業的轉型跟民眾的觀念以及少子化的這個危機加重了我們農村地區的人口的老化跟世代的斷層"},{"start":7067.295,"end":7067.435,"text":"那是農保的"},{"start":7084.16,"end":7102.076,"text":"所以現在2019年引進了這個農業的移工有這個需要吧從最早的800人到現在12000人剛剛部長在報告的時候也特別講到目前現在移工的申請到了8500人到年底就會到12000人那你知道這個缺口還要有8000人對不對那這8000人的話你知道要分配的到哪裡嗎"},{"start":7108.542,"end":7114.465,"text":"例如說像我們農糧部分目前是4000續牧業的話是4000人還有我們的外產人員是3000人跟我們養殖業800跟林業的200那你未來增加的這8000人你有規劃你有去做市場調查嗎對我們那個8000人就是從市場調查裡面得到的目前8000人會怎麼分配對大概還是會在農糧為主然後有一部分是續牧"},{"start":7133.134,"end":7133.294,"text":"外展外展"},{"start":7163.534,"end":7164.255,"text":"我跟委員說明,就是過往這個"},{"start":7183.84,"end":7209.247,"text":"外展的部分都在當區因為牽涉到交通跟住宿的問題當我去做跨區的時候我們會再跟我們現在開始有示範我們會去看示範裡面他的真正的需要在協助的地方特別是包括交通還有一部分的住宿那我舉個例子像果樹部長你還是沒有去了解務實的這個問題你要問到每一個農會他們在申請的人員比如說大的農會"},{"start":7210.487,"end":7215.753,"text":"現在大的農會比如說板橋好了或者台北好了他大的農會人員很多你現在配比是50%1比1對不對他的農會的話大農會人員當然多他申請的人多但是實際上下去農耕的人卻不需要那麼多因為他的農會實際在做的就是存放好的業務比較多嘛所以"},{"start":7229.907,"end":7254.28,"text":"在農村來講話他雖然是小農會可能他的行業裡面大概緣額大概20人10幾個人但是他的那個農地非常的大所以在這邊提醒部長就是你的外展人員跟你配比的問題你就需要依照農地的大小以大農地來申請這個外展人員而不是農會的大小的緣額來申請這樣子的話就不夠物質了是不是"},{"start":7255.02,"end":7273.22,"text":"我講分為兩個層次齁第一個層次是合配比的部分齁我們現在是全國一次性的只是合配比不一樣齁它的一個本級跟外級的部分那剛才委員所提的用農地的部分齁小農會比如說像我們現在還有合作社也可以所以我們會針對那一區那一區如果說農會如果"},{"start":7276.744,"end":7284.408,"text":"的人力的不夠的時候我們會協助他用合作的方式還可以去申請所以我們會盡量朝這個努力因為農地體會不大"},{"start":7292.773,"end":7311.527,"text":"並備質詢"},{"start":7311.587,"end":7335.704,"text":"他可能兩夫妻的工作但是他在收割期的話需要大量的人力就必須要有臨時工這就必須要調配所以有的地方如果沒有像部長您所講的有46個團的人力1500人的這個農務的人力團的話他需要的人力就必須要在當地當地的話比如我們桃園的話就青農青農的話他就可以成立合作社你補助他這個機械化的農機具的話他可以來協助幫忙"},{"start":7339.326,"end":7361.033,"text":"但是部長你有沒有了解到農忙的時候大家都忙都在搶人比如我們桃園的話比較多的是水稻或者是我們茶葉或者是我們的有機蔬菜忙的時候都一樣有機蔬菜是每天在忙可是如果說茶葉一次性的水稻一年兩次性三次性就是把這個農民休閒的時間會空擋在這邊所以這樣的情形的話他們要怎麼去管理外產人員呢"},{"start":7367.543,"end":7388.583,"text":"所以我們才會提到這個外長可以跨區來支援那以桃園地區來講的話我們會加強因為很多像蔬菜類的部分有沒有我們會加強它的農事服務的代更系統那這樣它的人民又可以往別的地方走我還請部長你再務其了解跨區的資源還是不足在當地的在地的資源"},{"start":7389.103,"end":7389.363,"text":"會來得比較好"},{"start":7406.736,"end":7414.121,"text":"我瞭解我瞭解但是因為勞動部這邊對於核配比有一致性的原則啦那這個已經超多他的一致性原則用本國跟所以務實去了解實際的問題在研究以後再跟勞動部來溝通"},{"start":7430.931,"end":7440.719,"text":"還有就是因為我們的農耕是比較曝曬在戶外曬太陽而且比較辛苦所以這移工失聯的也比較多部長有沒有發現這個問題?我們大概是12點14所以要怎麼防範呢?"},{"start":7447.905,"end":7463.832,"text":"我想要先去考慮說會去逃逸的部分可能就是因為你本身的適應性不夠而且農業的這些特殊性農業跟其他的工業不一樣然後因為移工有互相聯絡的關係他都會跑往比較輕鬆的在COVID-19的時候"},{"start":7465.313,"end":7466.113,"text":"我們了解這個,我們會想辦法去解決這個問題"},{"start":7491.321,"end":7505.467,"text":"接下來我想請問部長一下因為台電有說未來他對於農漁業的這個電費已經不補助了那我們這邊有沒有要補助這個電費的補助我們已經納入我們農業部的預算大概19億農漁業的話的電費補助大概多少錢18.9億他也是18.9億"},{"start":7513.038,"end":7513.879,"text":"我記得是18.9億那你會補足嗎"},{"start":7526.809,"end":7544.381,"text":"一定要補足啊!好!那就不要把這個成本轉嫁到農民!現在農民的成本已經很高了啦!已經慢慢地在衰退了!如果再付他更多的成本他可能會受不了!店家的那個六大項我們會去支撐著嘛!就不會調降!不會調漲!那這個差額的部分是由農業部"},{"start":7545.322,"end":7545.362,"text":"主席"},{"start":7572.998,"end":7600.85,"text":"首先有請我們農業部我們的陳部長我們請陳部長委員長部長好部長我給你請教你幾年出委?47年次47年次好我這樣了解那部長我每次在委員會的執行"},{"start":7602.925,"end":7626.943,"text":"還有我們院會的總執行一直強調苗栗縣一定要成立第一區反波四萬區苗栗縣的土地裡面86%是山坡地我們受限到苗栗縣的喉嚨被鎖住的我告訴你一個世界情形"},{"start":7628.089,"end":7656.683,"text":"苗栗的山坡地一甲地大概是一千五百萬到兩千萬說到台北市新北市大概買不到十坪到二十坪的房子你看這比例差了多少我也希望部長這開始對農民很不公平農民又分成兩種都市計劃"},{"start":7658.336,"end":7659.596,"text":"尤其苗栗縣的山坡地占了86%"},{"start":7687.369,"end":7709.69,"text":"您知道嗎?你們在農挖條例以來,您條例學術在說,只要說山坡地保持安全,我告訴你們,現在北省太窮了,自己去的地方必須要照顧得好,不能發生問題。那主要為了醫院一片的假清高,把農民的財產都把它降下來,"},{"start":7711.431,"end":7740.038,"text":"以前一甲地可以賣到三千多兩千多現在剩下一千五還沒有人要那是天道地的差別農民是客家宅散地國家宅散現在老農民在工作做什麼呢做健康的不是賺錢的自己農業部搞一個民主地所以我在這我要再三跟你強調我希望你跟我還有水保使的跟我下去看"},{"start":7741.175,"end":7748.794,"text":"你看到的時候你覺得退出的時候就要到那個地方來治鳥語花香人間仙境"},{"start":7750.438,"end":7771.904,"text":"那因為開挖現在為什麼不給你們講其實裡面你有開挖包括你農地的耕種你甚至可以組織農耕隊裡面要大膽的改革啊我們要有行動也要有創新你的AI內閣像我山坡地86%都在那裡喊著要洗洗地啊"},{"start":7773.234,"end":7778.8,"text":"我現在要求一件事我比你年紀還大但是我永遠是行動我永遠敢於創新"},{"start":7795.595,"end":7808.774,"text":"我朝你來看我一定我們在苗栗縣政府裏面討論完我們山坡地要如何開發我要把苗栗縣的山坡地打造像日本輕型車一樣"},{"start":7811.981,"end":7827.47,"text":"來個試試也可以減低了很多都市人口的壓力年紀大的一點一點的人可以在苗栗縣來康養非常好觀念要改變因為苗栗縣有獨特的地方到台北市高鐵40分鐘台中18分鐘"},{"start":7831.292,"end":7842.398,"text":"到高雄那邊大概70幾分鐘而且苗栗縣的高鐵苗栗縣政府到苗栗縣每一個鄉鎮30分鐘就會到很緊張的很好的地方"},{"start":7847.489,"end":7873.704,"text":"我再三提出來我覺得說我們做事情一定要大膽,我們要串心,我們要物盡其用,不是那麼白癡在那,滿山滿嶺以前種的水果都沒有人在摘啊,切工切得很凍,年輕人也不想做,我們也要改變一個方式,方立委來支持我這個結尾,我帶你去看,我們把問題提出來,真的是好地方"},{"start":7875.677,"end":7897.702,"text":"我被你們農化條例限制變成垃圾我一定要活化阿免驚你給我們一個試驗地區由縣長來指導法院跟你們討論通過以後做一次給人家看這樣不像台灣的進步永遠你保守在那邊什麼的不能破壞我常常講"},{"start":7899.144,"end":7923.4,"text":"都市人禮拜一到禮拜五你們在這邊燈紅巧麗。禮拜五晚上到我們鄉下地方禮拜六禮拜天我們的青山綠水好山好水都在你鄉上。為什麼都市裡面的農地可以重劃?變為自宅區變為商業區?為什麼我們山坡地要特別受您規限?"},{"start":7925.129,"end":7933.898,"text":"現在施工幾乎沒有人在種：有時候你看到很悲哀：誰要去爬：要不要答應支持我這樣：我們兩個還有水保局跟我去看：三個人"},{"start":7950.862,"end":7962.595,"text":"半天給你看到民間的力量有多偉大他創造一個美好的地方之後他們都實現大家人生要來修養安養的一個地方在"},{"start":7965.538,"end":7969.641,"text":"我那時候也承諾在我們的會期結束以後我一定會安排我的同仁好好地去看不要太走忍"},{"start":7983.303,"end":7987.507,"text":"我舉個人去看一看當然你會瞭解很多地方 當初以前做了這個說明 可有辦法可能的"},{"start":8005.866,"end":8010.63,"text":"在我要唱給大家聽,還沒開發還沒進步,怎麼會這樣就立場改變一下啦!謝謝!我跟委員報告,我們不能用農地的階段,不是只有..."},{"start":8018.578,"end":8019.738,"text":"今天講到農業移工"},{"start":8047.605,"end":8070.691,"text":"啊現在狀況,失聯移工是佔了一個大部分那在流氓的時候看你部長夠不夠力你外來的移工現在從6千人到1萬2千人條度的問題每一個農產品產的季節的問題都不一樣所以現在依我了解"},{"start":8072.272,"end":8091.894,"text":"這農民要叫台灣人來做,沒人什麼人要做,要去拜託,拜託到很沒民主的那些主力才是主力,我先插頭跟你講其實有時候我們要感謝他們,為什麼?那段的時間大家寧願錢高一點給他們,他們又出來做"},{"start":8092.984,"end":8109.169,"text":"因為你記得一個觀念這些移工一進來他就是要賺錢談了一段時間有給他賺錢他就會問一座台灣人做一半工就把你完成了我跟你講我碰到很多我在地方跑都會問這個問題第二個關於移工要進來"},{"start":8115.327,"end":8139.612,"text":"農業,你們以農業系統,我也支持但是我會講,農業系統,你是有換款的單位當然以輔導的單位,比較官僚一點我講這句話也就是我們的農業嘛但是我相信不會,我是把實情告訴你因為我要替你解決問題,我要把真的情形另外,我碰到了幾個"},{"start":8141.805,"end":8166.965,"text":"農會的青年人不錯 像我們縣里農會 像我們的西湖農會 那些啊 青農不錯 即使你真的在調用 那些農會 行動到緩慢 那些青年 青農都很多新的 不單更做 而且是地方有實力的 他認識的人很多 好好把持 這個是重要的裝潮"},{"start":8168.246,"end":8181.9,"text":"所以他們為了要服務將來他們要在地方發展的時候只要他的農民來拜託他他就會去幫他找解決問題快速好好的運用這個有效率的青龍"},{"start":8183.362,"end":8205.499,"text":"我看過我們縣裡的青龍真的很團結,也真的在做事情。西湖的也不錯。每一個地方的青龍培養出來不一樣。我覺得你用這樣的青龍,它有你農業各方面的人在那一邊,他們還用的速度很快。調整人力好好指揮給他們去應用一下,可能非常快。"},{"start":8206.818,"end":8229.455,"text":"當然未來我們CPTP一進來我們會更到 農業會更到更大的麻煩現在因應好 未來是來是我們以後農業的主力 現在沒有人要做了 我只是跟你講而且收穫也不高 只維護他的土地 哎呀啦 我要去做什麼 叫做做健康的啦"},{"start":8231.82,"end":8254.317,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝陳委員感謝 謝謝接下來我們請賴駿榮委員請做詢答 謝謝好 謝謝趙偉浩請陳部長我們再請陳部長各位與會人士我們今天沒有休息所以如果要這個"},{"start":8258.26,"end":8279.958,"text":"人性管理請自行處理謝謝好委員長好部長我首先請教一下這個牡蠣的問題這個也是漁業也是食安的問題全國的牡蠣其實這幾年整體的數量是減少的但是在媽祖的部分幾乎是倍增大概是兩倍從109年66公噸到148公噸是部長為什麼會有這樣的狀況"},{"start":8286.743,"end":8302.932,"text":"全台灣整體在減少而在媽祖全台灣的牡蠣大概在兩萬噸上下那過往大概平均大概一萬七千噸我先講國內的部分然後不足的地方是從國外的特別是以越南為主那當你國內的因為氣候關係調降的時候"},{"start":8305.914,"end":8331.43,"text":"那個越南的牡蠣就會進來可是我們發現這一兩年來這一兩年來的越南的牡蠣包括從五千噸六千噸讓整體的這個產量大概多了兩千噸左右大概到了兩千兩百噸不過比較好的情況是它的面積雖然下降但是產值提高了這個產值提高的部分我要講是馬祖牡蠣這個部分對 那馬祖的部分"},{"start":8332.951,"end":8350.629,"text":"從那個應該是66到148嘛那相對的就是馬祖本身的這些海域過往他比較少種那現在他們覺得說種這個也算是不錯的現在有14家那他們覺得是不錯的一個行業所以他們透過馬祖養殖了以後進到本島來賣"},{"start":8352.371,"end":8373.947,"text":"這個通道本身現在大概有建立了我只是要特別提醒因為就整個產量來說的話其實媽祖的這個平均每戶的產量狀況是高於臺灣這邊的那我要講的是媽祖的這些牡蠣的重金屬的檢驗其中幾個裡面檢驗特別在這個蛤的部分都是超過1ppm的"},{"start":8375.328,"end":8392.724,"text":"甚至有到2.33ppm那我認為這個問題其實是需要還是需要農業部跟漁業署去重視當然是涉及到包括涉及到相關的衛福部的一些事案的問題包括涉及到海巡是不是有走私偷渡的問題等等但不管但我覺得就"},{"start":8394.226,"end":8412.984,"text":"於產品的一個安全性來說我覺得漁業署跟農業部還是有責任我希望用最快的時間去找各單位去溝通釐清一下一方面就是說這個如果有走失的狀況的話這個還是要做一些處理包括各種的走失狀況甚至把它放在那邊然後變成由這邊來採收或者是說這個"},{"start":8417.248,"end":8445.817,"text":"整個種金屬的狀況我認為這個部分農業部應該要更有態度去做處理我想非常重要就是其實從馬祖過來其實我們最擔心的是稀產地的部分所以針對馬祖本身種的我們會要求它本身有成交履歷或追溯的現在14家裡面已經有13家了那一旦有這個追溯系統它的量就能夠了解第二個就是品質的問題就是它品質本身的一個監控養殖條件的一個監控的部分我們會要加強"},{"start":8446.237,"end":8465.674,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8466.315,"end":8476.751,"text":"甚至他的來源是不清楚的我認為他就應該要這個部分要持續來推動這樣才能確保整個好不好我希望這一塊部長跟署長再更花多點時間來做處理好"},{"start":8478.038,"end":8504.209,"text":"接下來回來講一下雞蛋我覺得雞蛋這件事情其實很久了我看從去年就已經一直有人在檢舉部長為什麼經過了一整年還有人在炒這件事情部長你怎麼看不過我想其實從今年2月開始許多委員他是針對111年的我們雞蛋的專案進口是112年的部分所以當這些資料開始釋出的時候"},{"start":8504.969,"end":8506.231,"text":"我先問一下買斷這件事情有沒有違法?"},{"start":8525.433,"end":8551.168,"text":"我想整個的貿易的交易的過程中你用合約也可以用到貨付款的方式也可以這是一個非常正常的一個過去來的政府都有採用這兩種方式都有進行這個貨到付款的方式其實在中央區長會其實他已經行事了非常久的一個我會再問一下過去有哪些是用曾經也用這樣的方式來進行我想豬肉的部分有沒有豬肉的部分也是用這樣的方式在哪一年的時候"},{"start":8554.813,"end":8577.067,"text":"這三年都有這三年都有用直接買斷的方式買斷的方式去處理那還有其他的例子嗎報告委員我們在續展會的傳交條件裡面只要透過所謂的直接市場的購入的部分大家都會用這個方式那這幾年大概就是豬肉跟雞蛋這幾年主要這兩個"},{"start":8579.387,"end":8601.475,"text":"部長我要提的其實在2022年的時候那時候其實就缺氮的狀況就開始甚至社會不斷的有一些生意那到了我都還看到了這個媒體的報導當時的時候甚至於還有立委還認為說連這個中國大陸的他雖然有情流感他覺得也可以一樣可以進來就那時候的整個社會的氣氛跟氛圍就是"},{"start":8602.435,"end":8627.634,"text":"台灣因為禽流感的問題而導致我們的蛋量是不足的時候大家在搶蛋的時候沒有蛋的時候一直期盼政府能夠去找到蛋來甚至很多國民黨的立委甚至各黨的立委都還要求要增加雞蛋的來源讓國內能夠充分的能夠來供應這些雞蛋所以我覺得還是還原到當時的那個脈絡裡面去當時大家期待政府是有積極作為來引進這些雞蛋的嘛"},{"start":8628.614,"end":8645.14,"text":"所以包括剛剛部長有提到嘛包括2022年2023年都有那就我所了解的齁當時幾乎是只要誰能夠掌握到這個雞蛋能夠把雞蛋進來大概都是你們買斷甚至引進進來的一個主要的這個依據是吧是這樣吧"},{"start":8645.66,"end":8661.725,"text":"是這樣子喔,就111年的部分因為有一部分是氣候關係還有侵略關係但是那時候的缺氮的嚴重性沒有1120那麼嚴重所以那時候我們剛好是COVID-19的復甦的第二年然後相對的很多氮的需求增加然後雞蛋的產能不夠的時候"},{"start":8662.825,"end":8685.323,"text":"那那個不夠的時候配合穩定後端的一個物價所以我們開始啟動這個雞蛋的進口那當時的時候只有台美澳這三個國家能夠進口的時候所以我們在112年才會比較著重在日本的雞蛋進口可是日本的雞蛋相對的也遇到類似的問題所以誠如委員所說的我們在"},{"start":8686.204,"end":8694.19,"text":"我記得當時還有很多人講說日本的蛋為什麼便宜事實上日本也很多也是進口進來的所以我們其實也是用日本這樣的做法來進口蛋來滿足台灣的需要那裡面談到合約那個部分我看到甚至有的講到超市2022年是用買斷的方式2023年是用簽約的方式"},{"start":8714.065,"end":8729.119,"text":"那亮彩的部分2022年是用簽約的方式嗎?是不是?他在那個4月之前是用簽約的方式因為那個時候是用合約的方式後來我們發現說4月以後的那個缺段情況可能比較嚴峻了"},{"start":8730.48,"end":8754.9,"text":"所以你們在考量上如果沒那麼急迫狀況下你們會採用簽約是不是但是如果在比較急迫搶蛋的同時的時候你們會採用誰有現貨能夠買斷就直接做出來對 這個部分就是我們考量用合約還是用買斷的方式的其中之一啦因為合約的話就必須要有一個比較長期性的像2023那個專案進口的時候我們希望有一個比較長期性能穩定供應的那2011年的時候"},{"start":8757.022,"end":8772.841,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8776.426,"end":8790.523,"text":"從去年8月一直要提到現在已經快了一年的時間了內部也做了相關的調查 部長就你的調查了解到底裡面有沒有涉及到違法的事項我想基本上我們看到的情證調查的結果他有非常"},{"start":8791.144,"end":8806.295,"text":"有一些續產會那邊在整個基站的處理過程中有一些形成的一個一個瑕疵跟疏失有檢討的空間那我舉個例子就像我們看到了就是他沒有依照政府採購法去做的部分您講的是倉儲跟運輸這個對倉儲跟運輸的部分對"},{"start":8808.396,"end":8810.158,"text":"那這些部分檢調有沒有介入在做調查的?"},{"start":8826.215,"end":8852.761,"text":"我想我們看到的就是我們沒有辦法去很清楚釐清的就是我們與區長會的部分是貨到付款很單純可是我們也看到了部分的那個雞蛋齁亮彩跟超私有私人的這些司法人的一個關係的一個貿易關係那這個關係我們已經以農業部督導的角色什麼時候移送的?我們大概是五月底六月初的時候"},{"start":8854.001,"end":8876.167,"text":"我希望這些部分盡快的把它釐清好不好但是所有的相關政府部門的所以作為其實還是如果有任何指控是不實的部分我還希望部長要強力的去捍衛了因為這些有很多是政策性的因素那政策上當時在缺單還是要大家很多真心當然如果裡面有任何不法那當然司法該怎麼辦怎麼辦但是如果沒有涉及的部分也要還給這些同仁們清白"},{"start":8876.547,"end":8877.468,"text":"接下來我們請賴會員委員請做詢談 謝謝"},{"start":8902.437,"end":8926.635,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長跟畜牧師師長 我們請其他兩位 謝謝部長我延續就是剛剛賴瑞隆委員對於就是說在111年到112年這個蛋的一個問題當然就是說黃國昌委員他是用日本的一個規格的方式"},{"start":8927.315,"end":8927.335,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":8946.562,"end":8949.363,"text":"在這裏我要特別那個剛才那個我們蔡英主席有講到說那個蛋生產過剩的時候可以拿去吃嗎?"},{"start":8976.836,"end":8990.708,"text":"現在是沒有這樣的一個做法那之前112年那個是報廢蛋我們再去做成飼料做成堆肥啦對所以說你要做成蛋粉嘛這個蛋粉的成本是非常高的嘛是不是這樣子那個市長"},{"start":8993.157,"end":9007.883,"text":"是不是這樣子呢?報告委員沒錯,因為蛋粉的成本大概會遠高於蛋的價值好幾倍好,那我想就是說在整個就是111年到112年的這個採滿這個蛋的時候有行政上的一個瑕疵"},{"start":9008.703,"end":9034.591,"text":"可是這個續產會上面就是說我們當然就是說很多委員都講得非常清楚了可是我在這裡因為本席來自於一個農業的選區所以農業的問題對我來講非常非常的一個重要所以專案進口的一個蛋起因就是因為缺蛋可是在生產過剩的時候我們的老母雞就是也不見得全面的一個淘汰那就是說這個產銷"},{"start":9036.451,"end":9064.242,"text":"施衡、調解沒有辦法有一個一致的章節的時候缺氮、聖氮成為一個惡性的一個循環在這裡我要特別跟我們的部長就是說做一個建議啦光是就是雞舍的一個升級老母雞的一個淘汰還是消費量的一個降低這些元素其實都是在我們的檢討範圍裡頭所以我覺得這個是我們必須要有一套比較完整的一個策略"},{"start":9065.703,"end":9082.509,"text":"接著我要跟你講到了是一個飼料的一個問題我們知道就是說所有的群序所有他們吃的90%甚至也超過以90%就是來自於薏米還有就是那個薏米跟那個黃豆"},{"start":9083.189,"end":9096.383,"text":"那這一些產區全部我們都是仰賴進口的那萬一就是在禽流感就是禽流感整個封港的時候像這樣的一個狀況的時候我們有沒有什麼替代的方式呢"},{"start":9097.598,"end":9123.582,"text":"我想第一個部分就是飼料我們沒有錯就是我們從國外進口但是我們現在是用條件關稅的方式去處理那我們也希望說條件關稅能夠反映反映到反映給農民這是一件事情那第二件事情就是說我們現在目前的這些玉米飼料如果沒有的話我們還有一些其他的一些用米的方式像雞的部分也可以用產米的部分去做一個飼料的處理"},{"start":9124.062,"end":9144.203,"text":"我跟您說部長你用稅米你用公糧這些其實價格都太高了量也少顯然這一個方式還應該是第二順位的方式有沒有第一順位積極的一個方式呢還有本席在這裡還要跟你再探討一個農業相關就是相關的一個業務各"},{"start":9145.945,"end":9146.506,"text":"續產會90%是靠農業部來補助的7百人"},{"start":9167.443,"end":9168.264,"text":"國內的一個那個敘述的一個產業的一個問題的研究"},{"start":9190.999,"end":9206.341,"text":"那其實在這裡這些單位你應該要調整我剛才還跟中加兵委員講我說我們看到了你對農業的一個專業的一個精闢的掌握這個是非常重要的"},{"start":9206.821,"end":9229.43,"text":"那在這個階段裡頭有沒有辦法就是說讓畜牧業務回歸到公務體系然後你好督導你好指揮然後可以提出這樣的一個效能這個是本期在長期就是觀察到就是我們整體的一個畜牧的一個問題就整體台灣的一個畜牧的問題所以部長你覺得呢"},{"start":9230.35,"end":9254.271,"text":"我非常謝謝委員的這樣的一個建議其實這個建議我們在我們組織改造的過程中也被討論但是因為牽涉到總原額法還有它的機關的三級機關的單位來講已經滿額了但是現在沒有辦法直接把續展會納入公務體系但是一個非常重要的就是我會去強調強化整個續展會的管理系統我覺得它的管理系統有非常非常大的"},{"start":9254.912,"end":9255.132,"text":"我講的應該還有一些"},{"start":9277.732,"end":9278.753,"text":"參考的價值。對,絕對有,絕對有,謝謝你,謝謝。"},{"start":9306.035,"end":9310.498,"text":"我們是不是請農業部我們部長我們再請陳部長部長這個"},{"start":9327.472,"end":9345.499,"text":"在講農業缺工那現在事實上包括AI的一個興起那所以無人機大概也是變成一個未來農業缺工的一個利器之一所以在講農業缺工的時候當然現在我們知道從2019年就開始在推動這個無人機精準農業農噴應用的元年2019年那這個農噴也開始就有人在使用這個"},{"start":9358.703,"end":9383.603,"text":"這一個無人機的一個噴藥那這個無人機的噴藥勒事實上也是有一些狀況這個狀況就是說如果無人機勒去噴到旁邊的人還是去噴到人那他有怎樣的怎樣的一些規範嗎就是說你們對無人機的使用的這個規範"},{"start":9385.926,"end":9395.514,"text":"吳仁芝如果去噴一個戒病人的殘因為他沒像人家在排排農藥嘛對不對阿你現在吳仁芝去噴的時候阿去噴戒病人的殘"},{"start":9399.281,"end":9428.161,"text":"我們分兩個部分第一個部分就是說我們的無人機去噴到別人的船那有沒有負他的賠償責任這個現在要舉證的一個問題啦所以我們都因為通常無人機在飛如果隔壁田人在的話通常不會發生這種東西都是黑飛的啦都是一些黑飛的部分都要靠後段的這些去查證那如果查證屬實的時候第一個他違反了相關的規定他必須取得相關的證照才能飛而且飛的時候必須把他的航線上傳"},{"start":9429.142,"end":9433.23,"text":"我們可以用這個方式去處罰他但是對於他誤噴的這個部分因為現在舉證的問題會比較困擾"},{"start":9437.947,"end":9465.212,"text":"舉證問題啦當然這困難回到下一頁吼那所以無人機吼你們目前都是噴藥他是需要證件吼雙證照對然後你們是規定說一定要具有法人資格那法人資格的話就很多農民嘛吼他們是購買這個農用的無人機然後他是自然人所以他就是沒有辦法去取得這樣的"},{"start":9467.076,"end":9474.074,"text":"這樣接案的一個機會那所以你們認為這個法人資格是必要性的嗎還是說這個是可以作為一個檢討的"},{"start":9475.609,"end":9497.158,"text":"沒有,這一種法人的部分其實我們當初考量的是萬一有什麼問題的時候保險的部分然後也是一個過渡就是說我們希望在一開始的時候有一個法人能夠讓有飛手的有無人機的話能夠加入他只是一個加入的動作就可以了這樣未來在追蹤在管理會比較單純的不是由他自然能去處理"},{"start":9498.759,"end":9511.147,"text":"當初的設計是這樣子那後續如果說無人機越來越普遍的時候我們也會考慮說當我個人的時候是不是可以去做申請那這樣的一個法人比方說我是合作社我合作社可以嗎"},{"start":9512.657,"end":9536.397,"text":"可以,你要登記法人應該也可以我用合作社來申請然後合作社裡面的飛手只要他具有雙證照他就可以使用這個我們會重新充滿的檢討因為我們現在政策就是要推一鄉鎮的一個農事服務業那農事服務業有一個重要的就是無人機的朋友的部分所以這個部分我們會配套的去重新調整我們的遊戲規則"},{"start":9537.458,"end":9545.246,"text":"好,那如果有要調整的時候是不是還跟我們辦公室﹖會,我們一定會去救教育委員說明一下齁好,那在下一頁齁"},{"start":9546.272,"end":9575.627,"text":"那我們現在回到今天的主題是在講這個農業移工這一個缺工缺工的狀況那事實上農業是很特殊啦因為農業事實上柏中你已經很清楚了農業的缺工他是屬於季節性的缺工所以他變得說你除了是透過外展或者其他的媒合的一個平台你不然你在農業上你真正需要移工"},{"start":9577.257,"end":9598.773,"text":"真的符合的農業的品項不多可能在畜牧業或可能是蘭花他們是全年到當都有工作可是農業的話他就是季節性他就大開的時候需要他也燒開的時候就不需要移工所以對他來說這個移工是一個額外的成本"},{"start":9599.293,"end":9619.424,"text":"所以他們一定每個人大家都會將本求利所以變成說我去找合法的移工我身分太高那我當然大家都要找黑工去找這些逃逸的然後就變成說他在勞力的缺口上他需要的反而是類似這樣的逃逸外勞這個很矛盾"},{"start":9620.804,"end":9637.01,"text":"否則你們都沒有想要這個問題委員報告就是的確現在那種短時間季節性的缺工才是一個比較大的一個核心的問題所以我們在做那個移工外展的服務的時候假期都只有不能跨區現在可以跨區"},{"start":9637.95,"end":9637.97,"text":"部長!"},{"start":9652.807,"end":9668.736,"text":"可是外展我們也推了4年多了吧可是你們發現說事實上真正在用外展的還是我剛剛講的可能是在畜牧業還是比較還是比較集中型的產業就是說他的工作是比較他去用外展農糧的應該也有啊農糧的相對的跟其他當然畜牧還是比較多啦變成說"},{"start":9678.662,"end":9701.446,"text":"其中我剛剛講的季節性缺工的再用外展的他用這樣媒合的相對還是很困難所以部長我具體建議啦你們思考看看啦就是說以農業來說農業可不可以因為他的特殊性然後我們讓外勞是可以兼職的目前外勞是不是只能做一份工作"},{"start":9703.041,"end":9722.044,"text":"不管是哪一種外勞可能是工廠的或者是勞動契約透過勞動契約去限制對阿所以我們如果針對農業你可以同意讓外勞他是兼職然後就是在做農業你的問題都解決了捏"},{"start":9723.39,"end":9748.186,"text":"部長你懂我的意思嗎?比方說我是在做家庭照顧的外勞那如果我在農業缺工的這段時間 類似外財 讓他們去登記 讓他們兼職不要說他就去討食工作 然後就被抓到 就要被送回去你只要外勞可以兼職 可以讓他工作之餘可以去選擇做什麼工作"},{"start":9750.383,"end":9756.844,"text":"阿就單農業這一下我們不要把它開放到其他的工業那裡因為農業它就是一個很特別的阿"},{"start":9758.133,"end":9781.68,"text":"你只要讓他兼職,那些律師都沒必要啦,他就乖乖的,乖乖的,要照顧,要做長照啊,還是要照顧的,他就乖乖的。但是他啊,時間最長的出來的,讓他去兼職,讓他去去產林去那裡倒烤草,去產林去那裡烤粿啊,這樣怎麼有什麼不對?"},{"start":9784.104,"end":9806.105,"text":"我覺得你這個想法的確可以解決非常多的問題但是這牽涉到勞動法規的一個限制我會跟勞動部講就是說我們農業為什麼未老是沒有辦法解目前的外產或者是我們現在你開放移工可是這些移工他賣掉他都會變成他都會逃走"},{"start":9807.593,"end":9819.281,"text":"他都會跑去 然後後來你看到事實上吼我們是大家心照不宣吶 很多農業他會吹的那些火辣都黑金啦 都頭衣外套啦"},{"start":9821.271,"end":9821.732,"text":"來稍微講一下就好"},{"start":9849.147,"end":9852.674,"text":"主席再給我30秒就好我剛剛講的都有聽到嘛"},{"start":9855.188,"end":9878.994,"text":"謝謝委員的指教這個部分在就業服務法裡面目前針對這種攔領的移工我們是考慮到說他有生活管理的責任的問題所以目前是一個移工一個雇主所以這個部分如果要放寬讓他可以兼職的話就會衍生他在兼職的過程當中會有他的生活管理包括職災的發生或者是逃逸的責任的歸屬這個都是細部問題啊對所以那個部分可能這個問題就是拿出來檢討就好了啊就是說他"},{"start":9881.395,"end":9904.983,"text":"做登記,類似外展的一個登記,登記完後他在兼職工作的時候責任由第二個僱主來負擔。這個部分可能還在需要演繹,包括我們的...沒關係,我是覺得你要演繹這個啦。你第一你一定要改觀,不要讓外流都是偷走的,都是偷移外流,這第一你一定要改觀。第二你一定要改觀農業缺工的問題。農業這種季節先缺工這沒辦法。"},{"start":9909.197,"end":9934.556,"text":"他就是長這個樣子所以你們勞動部一定要去想辦法我們會跨部會一起來努力好不好好謝謝好謝謝接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做詢談來謝謝主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關首長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生我們有請陳部長"},{"start":9937.113,"end":9960.362,"text":"我們再請陳部長還有農副司的陳司長 農糧署的蘇代理署長好 以上二位一併來 委員長部長好 市長好 署長好部長 過去強弱的時候 我們是不是協調我們的國軍 弟兄 少吃蛋 改用其他蛋白質"},{"start":9963.439,"end":9989.134,"text":"現在我們蛋很多可不可以協調國防部請我們國軍兄多吃蛋我想我們已經發文就是請我們的因為蛋有非常好的蛋白質然後一天吃兩顆蛋也不會因為這樣子而有一些膽固醇現在是蛋太多跟缺蛋多我們反過來操作第二個問題可能署長或市長這邊想一下那天請教你雷鳳的問題"},{"start":9991.167,"end":10010.578,"text":"你也好好關心,請附宿長去了解那我現在發現檸檬的問題主要是一個產銷的問題啦就是說對於因為檸檬它是加價的嘛所以它的用藥殘留很嚴格那我知道呢對於彼此互相用藥最關心的就是什麼?"},{"start":10010.578,"end":10017.642,"text":"酪農啦因為酪農喔,他們不可能一台輪車,欸是集乳車啦不是那個輪車喔不要聽錯了齁"},{"start":10019.179,"end":10043.05,"text":"一輪車是一台車要塞整輪的木頭所以說只要一個牧場有牛生病打了抗生素驗出來整個所有的木頭都知道用了所以互相他們彼此之間對彼此顧慮到別人的乳品不要被污染他們對自己的牛吃的管理健康管理很重視不會害到別人你聽懂意思嗎?相信說這雷夢的事情是假的"},{"start":10044.531,"end":10045.292,"text":"我請問你 你是不是農家主帝?"},{"start":10072.964,"end":10074.365,"text":"我這邊創造一個叫做農業學工啦"},{"start":10098.683,"end":10121.869,"text":"農忙、下田、農閒、上學啊,你有沒有聽過建教合作以前他叫施謙是在擱金?有有高職的建教合作只有暑假才去上工嗎?不是,它是整個的工廠的工班跟他們的學期把它分開來工廠不忙的時候學校幫他們安排課程,這樣了解了齁?對我現在開始詢問了,來我們從業人口要跌破50萬,那怎麼辦?是不是你們就要移工,是不是這樣?"},{"start":10123.11,"end":10147.88,"text":"我講從業林口本身50.9萬基本上我們覺得他從主力的農家來講他應該還有機會少一點然後更精準所以不是量的問題是質的問題我同意好了我們看剛才都問農業的移工有長期的移工長期的缺工跟季節性的缺工你說有自行聘僱跟外展服務你知道為什麼外展服務不好用嗎?市長有什麼好用?市長你說我常常問你啊有什麼好用?"},{"start":10150.407,"end":10159.077,"text":"大概在外展的話,因為他...我農會要有很多人,我知道他一定會受害嘛。農會喔,他原來有很多啦,所以說他...不管你說經濟很多啦。啊,我們經濟多,他就派調動,這裡站兩個站三個敲八八,農忙的時候敲八八,農閒的時候沒回去,是不是這樣?"},{"start":10169.89,"end":10173.153,"text":"所以我們來看一看你知道教育部過去有建教合作現在有產學攜手嗎?"},{"start":10193.82,"end":10215.2,"text":"你知道有沒有辦新南向的這個合作班?這個之前我們特別是在印尼菲律賓的部分,成交非常好我跟你講,一樣遇到跟那個外展一樣,因為那個特大學的,他在這特大學,學期是固定的"},{"start":10216.041,"end":10234.389,"text":"所以說他們在用上課之餘去實習不見得農家好用目前比較好用的就是畜牧業 因為是有的 那些在那裡做工的 每天的 往下看所以我現在是說 讓你回憶一下高職的以前的建交合作 如果說我們從高職 現在有個3加4 有沒有聽過3加4"},{"start":10238.651,"end":10255.517,"text":"再三天、四天、七天、十六天就來台灣．可以參加這項在他執政時的類似建交合作．他生課大後．他可以好好配合．他的農盲去挑戰他的上課時間．了解意思嗎?"},{"start":10255.517,"end":10263.599,"text":"了解了解,我們看一下．所以說我們希望你去思考一下．不要只從外籍移工來思考．不要讓勞動部覺得很麻煩．廠工啊．"},{"start":10265.64,"end":10280.712,"text":"我不是東廠的那個工喔 是廠工 廣場的廠工 因為其實都是什麼 都是操時工作啦 早上5點去餵米糧啦 8點去上班啦 5點下班後就來偷走啦 其實還要當部門的同意啦"},{"start":10284.513,"end":10301.958,"text":"但是學生不同學生農業學工他來這邊求學位他花六七年的時間學校安排他的學習農忙下田農閒上課你覺得可不可以考慮我覺得可以考慮他們在暑假的時候不是暑假他們的寒暑假"},{"start":10302.338,"end":10325.645,"text":"不是根據學校的作息是根據農業的需求來調整因為是專班你覺得可沒有可能我覺得可以去考慮我覺得這個部分特別是未來去培養他們變成農業的經營者是一個非常重要的因為他們對於馬來、對於印尼他們很多人我們要學習就是要等於大家做老闆、大家開房子、開房子所以我這個事情要請教你覺得教育部會不會支持"},{"start":10326.499,"end":10352.964,"text":"就是說特別的專班他的上課時間是配合農閒的時間來上課農盲讓他們下田實習你認為有沒有可能我覺得這個要去談細節然後有願意有學校願意把他的課程跟農盲做配合對這個部分你們在講史崗委員來說明清楚是不是你同意跟教育部研究新來的專班我覺得一定會跟他們去討論好不好如果可以的話我們一定往前走主席也支持啦這樣請兩個部長去參詳啦我就問到這裡好不好好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝部長"},{"start":10371.897,"end":10375.379,"text":"主席謝謝我想請部長我們再請陳部長部長早安"},{"start":10403.962,"end":10425.49,"text":"農業移工的問題我想大家都非常的關心尤其我們雲林縣我每一次跟我們的農民在對話他們都告訴我說真的非常需要農業移工而且呢他們其實合法的管道對於他們來說非常的困難完全是緩不濟急為什麼會有這樣子的狀況呢部長"},{"start":10426.85,"end":10447.931,"text":"我想分為兩個層次就是說現在的移工本身有一部分是他本身的規模比較大的大農場但是他的合配比比較高所以他沒有辦法請到那另外一部分就是他想要請外籍移工但是他的規模沒到到那邊所以我們根據這個已經降低了相關準備降低他的相關門檻"},{"start":10448.812,"end":10465.432,"text":"是部長我希望說我們可以更彈性一點就是更彈性一點讓真正缺工的這些農民可以請到移工否則你可以看我們臺灣的這個農業就業人口比10年前下降了7個百分點"},{"start":10466.273,"end":10471.7,"text":"這個百分點就是說可能是務農賺不到錢或者是他們明明賺得到錢但工人不足導致他們沒辦法順利的獲利所以這個我覺得說可以說是農業部就是照顧農民就是農業部的天職"},{"start":10483.174,"end":10495.941,"text":"所以這個部分希望部長可以重視說我們農業的人口一直下降這也代表著農業部越來越不重要你知道嗎所以我也希望說我們可以好好照顧農民讓農民賺得到錢那這樣子農民的"},{"start":10498.562,"end":10500.083,"text":"現在目前8505人大概70%那我們估計到年底就會額滿"},{"start":10528.063,"end":10557.663,"text":"那明明我們農業很缺工為什麼這個原額沒有額滿為什麼呢?這個簽得到相關的一個申請的他們有的在申請程序就是我想要講的就是說現在農業移工的合配比率還是非常的嚴苛10人以下的農民或團體一個本勞只能配一個外勞如果是10人以上的農民團體只能占全部的四成以下現在農民本來都請不到了你設這個限制他如何一比一"},{"start":10560.265,"end":10581.12,"text":"這個合配比的部分是勞動部的一個規劃那我們會積極的去爭取包括我剛才說的我先處理10人以上的35%我希望說能夠朝向1比1的方式就是說沒有必要鎖定1比1啊就是這樣子的話變成是他本勞都請不到他外勞更請不到你等於鎖死了他所有的機會啊"},{"start":10583.121,"end":10592.027,"text":"我是希望說你們跟勞動部可以趕快妥善的一起研議啊那如果說是不是有辦法說你如果一比一假設他只有一個農民對一個一個外勞他們兩個溝通不了你有辦法成立類似小團體他外勞團體他可以輪著去不同的農場我覺得這也是一個可行的這個就是我們以農會為核心的就是"},{"start":10605.876,"end":10614.405,"text":"但是你農會你也設定了很多的一個比例讓他沒有辦法好好的去申請我提醒部長一件事情日本跟我們一樣他們現在邁向高齡少子化的社會他們的農業跟我們一樣也缺工"},{"start":10620.251,"end":10639.549,"text":"所以呢他們現在要鬆綁外籍移工的法規限制而且可以領到假設他們領到日本特定技能勞工第二類的身份就可以申請無限期延長簽證可以攜帶家屬同行之外最終得以申請"},{"start":10640.45,"end":10641.39,"text":"您剛才講日本人的案例據我了解其實勞動部也"},{"start":10665.88,"end":10666.04,"text":"拜訪農業部長"},{"start":10686.906,"end":10687.086,"text":"我們會來努力"},{"start":10705.382,"end":10726.839,"text":"另外這個是從今天早上到現在大家都想知道的請問部長取得中央續產會2022年8月採購日本雞蛋的合約公司到底是哪一家公司我想以續產會來講就是是不是量財我們是採貨到付款我先問你嘛我說是不是量財量財我了解是量財進口雞蛋"},{"start":10732.076,"end":10752.582,"text":"那我想要知道說量彩是一個依美生物科技人力仲介的這樣子資本額只有100萬的公司為什麼當初量彩可以拿到合約呢?第一個因為這件事情我稍微問了我們同仁基本上的營業項目是符合的第一個營業項目是符合的第二個我剛才說的我們在當初"},{"start":10753.802,"end":10760.009,"text":"緊急的狀況之下需要彈的話只要你有能力拿到日本彈我可以再問一下部長就是說那為什麼童年付款的對象卻變成是超市呢到底是跟誰簽約給誰輸入許可應該就是要付錢給誰為什麼他們"},{"start":10770.359,"end":10770.819,"text":"9月付款給操司是簽約還是買斷?"},{"start":10796.144,"end":10807.351,"text":"在4月以後幾乎都是買斷的方式 4月以後沒有 4月以後都是買斷的方式 我就是問你你確認說9月付款給超市是簽約還是買斷?不知道 因為都是買斷的 那亮采原本的約有沒有履約?亮采的約是到4月 4月之前都有履約啊 所以你確定亮采有履約?"},{"start":10824.169,"end":10826.572,"text":"我問你他有沒有履約?所以應該是沒有問題啊?"},{"start":10843.544,"end":10845.125,"text":"所以這個最匪夷所思的是如果照你這樣講 量產也沒有問題 超市也沒有問題啊"},{"start":10862.278,"end":10871.22,"text":"所以如果都沒有問題的話為什麼要移送減掉?因為你有移送就是有問題嘛你自己也覺得有問題啊移送不代表有問題移送是希望把這個事情做一個釐清"},{"start":10883.8,"end":10889.768,"text":"所以你自己內部都沒辦法釐清你是付錢的人你沒辦法釐清我們沒有問題你付錢給誰你不知道續產會絕對沒問題因為絕對沒問題你現在敢掛保證嗎你敢幫續產會保證嗎我跟你說你這個太嚴重了喔你要幫他保證的話就嚴重了喔"},{"start":10902.703,"end":10909.847,"text":"這個程序都沒問題 貨到付款 他拿到貨了 然後付錢就沒問題 那我跟請教部長 農業部這個補助續產會 冷藏倉儲租金1165萬 跟雞蛋的托運費295萬 總共1460萬"},{"start":10922.365,"end":10925.328,"text":"結果續產會實際核銷只有723萬所以可以就是追繳回50%的補助款對不對"},{"start":10934.239,"end":10952.804,"text":"對,因為這邊講的一些1165跟295是計劃當初核定的,但是最後實際的核銷...那他有繳回嗎?我們在當初口頭的時候已經說要繳回,現在在做行政程序所以他到現在都還沒有繳回?那個是一個行政程序在過...所以到現在都還沒有繳回?對,他們會繳回,但是現在在行政程序當中"},{"start":10953.744,"end":10968.184,"text":"我我我就是一個結論啊就是政府的錢幾億元都可以給沒有簽約的公司幾百萬的補助費給的也很隨便農業部到底是出了什麼問題我覺得這一點部長你一定要"},{"start":10969.165,"end":10970.906,"text":"接下來我們請張旗開委員請做巡檔"},{"start":11003.464,"end":11006.125,"text":"最近雞蛋盛產我們的蛋籠跟蛋商都很慘可是我沒想到的是"},{"start":11031.263,"end":11055.766,"text":"最近中央市場會還倒蛋還倒貨進我們的這個市場不是應該減少這個蛋的量嗎怎麼中央市場會還火上加油呢這裡面出了至少有三大的衝擊第一有沒有衝擊影響到我們蛋農的生計第二破壞了你農業部最重要的任務產銷的平衡第三個可能也會出現的"},{"start":11056.96,"end":11082.685,"text":"已經要釋出的是去年過期的蛋或者即將過期的蛋等一下這部分我沒有好好談我有數據給你看有沒有過期的蛋或即將過期的蛋吃到我們的肚子我畫一個問號等一下我們來談來這三部分我先問你部長這次產銷失衡就是蛋太多嘛對不對你的任務跟中央稀產會的任務一個是煮雞蛋鹹炒結果為什麼"},{"start":11086.277,"end":11109.441,"text":"反而中央市場會為今年5月17日開始：到現在已經5梯次公開飆搜彈兩天太多了你再倒兩下去火上加油我算起來錢一彈加上蛋黃一彈茶葉一彈滷蛋你如果算是用顆的這個顆量大概已經倒進市場兩千兩百多萬顆"},{"start":11115.801,"end":11135.197,"text":"這個會不會太離譜了?你要解決問題的人 接著我去製造問題這台灣會覺得什麼?生雞兩個沒有 又半雞三個有是不是?如果從行政學上去看是什麼?行政管理上是什麼?失職、失能、又失德有些農民都已經氣到 講一句話我先抱歉講很夭壽的你沒有解決問題 你從市長會 這時候會倒貨進去現在畫面 你想像那兩個畫面單車"},{"start":11143.975,"end":11172.916,"text":"兩天買起來的錢都沒夠啊弄到後來前幾天有那麼多媒體都報導那個畫面大家想一下有些為了要減少蛋再進到市場欸 拿去吃爹欸就是要減少他的量啊結果你想像這邊 欸都多心疼的事情結果你想像這邊的畫面是什麼中央市場會 五月十七開始你要倒到市場裡面倒了2200多萬顆蛋進去這人民不會憤怒嗎求我們善良的農民是不是"},{"start":11175.25,"end":11181.498,"text":"市長,這個中央市長會到底在幹嘛?因為台灣人民有跟我問題嗎?他反而製造了問題欸!"},{"start":11182.782,"end":11182.942,"text":"是否這樣?"},{"start":11213.422,"end":11234.41,"text":"現在是產量過剩喔!要減少喔!中華稀產會現在不只沒有減少喔!他還倒貨進來喔!你贊成他這樣做是不是?不是我贊成這樣做喔!這個是在產價調節的一個環喔!因為這些進口加工...調節!調節是應該減少他的量!讓價格回升啊!倒貨不是價格越來越高?你怎麼會?你這是火上加油!怎麼會是解決問題?"},{"start":11235.47,"end":11236.01,"text":"我還需要去吃一個雞蛋嗎?"},{"start":11264.687,"end":11289.887,"text":"不是不是,那個液彈是...對阿,你現在紫外,我跟你說,你現在沒對,你現在為了機能生鮮的可能要壞掉了你故意,你現在就必須要把它變成加工嘛,對不對我現在所有的資料都是從中央續產會的進口彈的這個加工品專區拖出來的東西去年快過期了,或者我甚至擔心有沒有過期問題,就是沒有過期,也即將過期,對不對為了要保存多一點點,所以要把它打成液彈嘛"},{"start":11290.848,"end":11315.576,"text":"那你應該是去年賣阿 或者是雞蛋少的時候賣阿因為你現在找雞蛋太多 太多的時候你又把蛋丟進去勒我沒有這種離譜的 那你剛講的 你說兩個有不一樣嗎他都是蛋阿 我只有吃了一蛋你今天試出來不是 聽我說喔 你今天試出來不是只有一蛋喔你還試出了茶葉蛋跟滷蛋 我今天我要吃一顆 茶葉蛋吃一顆"},{"start":11317.236,"end":11318.456,"text":"你這麼專業的人你應該是有專業的你是有知識沒有常識嗎?"},{"start":11346.004,"end":11370.092,"text":"你明明那個市場就過多了,價格已經跌成這樣,你量這邊加進去,你還在幫他辨護?沒有,不是,我是說整個雞蛋本身的...你是有專念,你是有資格,可是我剛剛講的是不是一個常識問題啊?對,這個部分就是...你為什麼你的農業部的功能是什麼?產跟消要平衡對不對?那產就已經生產過剩啊,啊你還把東西加進去,過剩什麼叫做平衡?太多的東西要變少對不對?"},{"start":11371.744,"end":11376.127,"text":"我問一個更嚴重的你目前已經丟了2200多萬個進去的我去看你去年給我的資料我看一下你加起來一共還有"},{"start":11398.761,"end":11404.223,"text":"我想我們會基於他們的專業的判斷,會去調整他們釋出的時間點。欸,保證,保證,農民已經氣到不知道,不是給他憤怒而已喔。"},{"start":11427.106,"end":11444.932,"text":"施職施農已經要求說實在施得了人民現在能夠多憤怒能夠罵多重的話再想一想在施農的時候你為什麼倒這麼多蛋已經不對了你現在嘔氣了還事情發了我們一定會觀察他本身的一個產銷平衡狀態去決定他的調不然就去收債啊你要丟蛋進去好第二個 我知道你有做你的專業"},{"start":11454.653,"end":11474.905,"text":"人在公門 我一直在強調這件事 那公門好休閒 有腦袋之外拜託有一個心啦好不好 剛剛宗嘉濮議員 宗嘉濮立委 我覺得他的質詢很好啊 要說農就消費啊 拜託國賃 這營養的農可以加一塊 我覺得不管是哪一個黨 有心幫人民解決問題就是好立委 一樣啊"},{"start":11476.055,"end":11502.757,"text":"不是只有腦袋,有心,部長到目前大家對你評價不錯,你有心你就是一個好官員,你現在都沒有感受到那種痛嗎?你若是一個養雞戶,你是一個彈籠,是一個彈山,心裡是在糖血的,因為你看到有些對你這些問題我當然了解,我當然了解,我們會努力來做這個方面好不好,我提兩個,我們動動腦啦,我們用心跟用腦幫彈籠跟人民解決問題,第一"},{"start":11504.713,"end":11514.918,"text":"農產品太多的時候你都去補助了嘛 考慮一下怎麼去補助蛋農 特別是在飼料那一塊有沒有 休息了 你已經降低關稅了 想一下能不能再有一點補助這是一個 第二個更重要 你鼓你進口蛋進口太多對不對 你做了什麼動作"},{"start":11533.166,"end":11537.192,"text":"你不能用同樣的方法嗎?你叫國軍買伊丸,你跟我們農業部,你叫中央市政府買一些回來啊!"},{"start":11550.024,"end":11562.752,"text":"買一些回來買完回來一樣一樣做成蛋液一樣做成滷蛋跟茶葉蛋以後需要再賣可以賣這個就是我我跟委員報告我們現在正在評估齁這就是我講的齁我們必須有一些國產蛋去做一個庫存緩衝的一個空間啦去做一個調配啦但是這個調配需要比較細緻的操作"},{"start":11576.543,"end":11597.783,"text":"其實你剛才主席剛才在對話我就聽了你說你現在要控制到一天就是2400萬顆嘛對不對?是目前其實為什麼過剩?接三十...三十二萬顆左右三十二萬顆的蛋出來嘛所以我就在想你又丟了2200萬顆好 那至少這個多出來的蛋你可以買啊 像去年一樣啊買完以後 它做成一袋它就有一年喔"},{"start":11598.988,"end":11622.747,"text":"對不對?你都可以幫外國,為什麼不能幫我們本國?好好想一下這個事,好不好?我了解,我們已經有在這樣一個規劃有規劃是不是?趕快做好不好?我這些量都可以講啦你現在目前你看,今年你買7千顆放在那裡嘛你至少今年你可以買我們本國的蛋啊,買7千顆一百那量就減少了嘛,就真的達到產銷平衡了嘛,對不對?7千顆沒有過期,你把它做成一蛋"},{"start":11623.447,"end":11647.629,"text":"做成茶葉蛋 每年你買一百到未來一年你隨時缺蛋你就放出去好不好 因為冬天需要量好 謝謝 所以抱歉 好消極麵我抱歉我講一下消極麵剩下你四千五百丁 不要再釋出了好不好 不要再到貨了這是消極麵 第二個積極麵 都知道講的 考慮一下補助 適量 讓我們的蛋籠"},{"start":11648.581,"end":11648.601,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":11664.321,"end":11677.548,"text":"期待是一個好的觀念好不好好 德佳好 謝謝那我們也請部長將你所謂的很細緻的這個方案競速提出然後送交給我們經濟委員會謝謝 協助淡龍接下來我們請黃仁委員 謝謝"},{"start":11691.843,"end":11708.918,"text":"有請部長我們再請陳部長謝謝主席來委員長好我就以你的業務報告裡面的原住民農產業發展與現況針對臺東縣長濱鄉倒稅劫死累累代收割已經遭到迷惑的大勢的破壞"},{"start":11719.927,"end":11742.374,"text":"那殘米香這個第一期的稻穗做目前等待收割中但有些田區每天遭受到這個米吼的入侵而且很多的這個稻米還沒未成熟就已經大肆的破壞那這個問題包含我們在那個什麼在"},{"start":11743.598,"end":11761.17,"text":"加走廊部落裡面有很多山豬入侵包含猕猴入侵你們如何現在對這個來防範甚至在其他的鄉鎮裡面的稻穗也曾經不是曾經是現在都一直在破壞當中你們如何防治"},{"start":11765.011,"end":11787.085,"text":"我跟委員說明就是說米油其實它的危害不只是現在講的水道其實還有很多果樹類的部分常常會受到這個米油的危害那現在我們林業保育署裡面他有提供這樣的一個電器那個電木器的部分微網的部分去做一些一些就是去喉的動作或者是防保但是這些措施對於水道來講他"},{"start":11788.766,"end":11788.786,"text":"第2個 這個"},{"start":11814.827,"end":11838.593,"text":"有關於簽電網如檢疫電網請問一下農業部有什麼什麼什麼樣的方式的補助那另外另外你們在做書面報告待會提出的事項那部落設計發展以農業農農產業的這個發展回鄉族人以在地成員形成新興組織的重要議題第一個"},{"start":11842.992,"end":11845.516,"text":"農業部目前有沒有大規模的園鄉農業推廣．或者部落主體的產業發展規劃那第二"},{"start":11853.533,"end":11876.903,"text":"原鄉離消費市場甚遠除了運銷成本高外受到銷售管道的限制近年來銷售進況不盡理想導致族人種種的意願降低請問農產品銷售管道狹隘次貸風險大農業部有如何解決的方法第三"},{"start":11878.663,"end":11890.428,"text":"農業部有沒有對原鄉特定作物補貼．或者修耕補助方案．請一周內給我一個回答另外本席認為在農業記憶土地記憶與原鄉的發展是直接連結在一起的"},{"start":11898.971,"end":11918.739,"text":"這樣才能夠實現以農為本的抵抗政治才能夠找回土地對原住民族回鄉者的一個真實的一個回鄉意願這個報告能不能提供給我我想跟委員報告你應該所列的東西我們會提供報告給你我只簡單的說明"},{"start":11920.18,"end":11920.36,"text":"好,這樣子"},{"start":11946.537,"end":11947.437,"text":"好 我們會提供好 謝謝"},{"start":11976.365,"end":11997.133,"text":"謝謝好那因為要11點50了我們中午不休息到今天會議結束那我們原本預定下午1點鐘要做公糧收購價格黨團協商提前到本日議程結束後立即進行好現在我們繼續詢談請黃珊珊委員請做詢談等一下等一下"},{"start":12004.906,"end":12006.046,"text":"請問您在接任部長之前在農委會擔任多久的職務?"},{"start":12022.998,"end":12042.357,"text":"我108年3月進到農委會你是長期的農委會擔任我認識你的時候你應該是副主委是所以應該我們在臺北市政府也很謝謝農委會對於臺北市相關農產運銷或者是北農的這些支持所以"},{"start":12044.407,"end":12059.869,"text":"當時的副主委現在的部長應該非常清楚台北市在新建所謂的第一漁國國菜市場跟漁市場的改建中當時我賢命因為台北市議會要求我們必須要來跟中央爭取補助這個國菜市場"},{"start":12060.934,"end":12083.684,"text":"還有漁市場的改建總共花費大概140億當時議會有下一個決議說因為北農的大股東有一個叫做農委會你們的股東應該是22.76台北漁業公司的部分全國漁會的股份也有39%所以要求我們要跟中央來爭取"},{"start":12085.939,"end":12097.815,"text":"部長看一個照片這是我們接受議會要求之後其實我們我就帶著董事長跟總經理來拜訪陳其中主委這件事情你知道嗎知道您知道嗎"},{"start":12099.798,"end":12126.716,"text":"當時會面的時候不知道我事後知道事後所以我們當時爭取新建經費然後主委說因為這個部分臺北市是一級財政城市所以不予補助但是陳主委當時就說接下去新建好了以後冷鏈還有相關的拍賣軟體設備的部分農委會可以考慮來協助就是內部的部分所以我想問一下陳主委講的話現在的陳部長會不會"},{"start":12129.238,"end":12156.503,"text":"我想我的態度也一樣就是說當因為批發市場是一個非常重要的一個市場所以內部的包括的冷鏈的部分特別是拍賣能夠升級的部分我想我們都會支持所以現在如果按照接下去的他的硬體還在蓋但軟體的部分我希望農業部在前陳主委跟現在的陳部長我們希望他不是只是單純臺北市的工程而是他是一個重要的全國的"},{"start":12156.983,"end":12162.124,"text":"臺北市的農產運銷相關的這些過程裡面我們其實很辛苦的就是在過程裡面我看到您在2020年其實已經開始推動所謂的分級包裝"},{"start":12185.52,"end":12186.48,"text":"我們每天有一千七百噸的"},{"start":12210.95,"end":12212.83,"text":"所以分期包裝一直以來有在推但是效果好像不是很好"},{"start":12239.599,"end":12239.619,"text":"部長"},{"start":12259.305,"end":12285.291,"text":"這些事情您接了部長之後會不會繼續推推的效益是不是要寫一些KPI啊不然每次都說啊要看品項要看農民那現在今天討論的又是農民幾乎沒有工人可以做事所以你怎麼樣推動分期報告我想跟委員說明喔從我的思維裡面我覺得很多進到批發市場的這特別是有些業差類的要先處理的就在產地端就要處理好"},{"start":12286.952,"end":12297.942,"text":"我會對接到他的五大的那個合作社場從合作社場那邊先處理那有一些共同運銷的部分我們希望一定要這樣做啦"},{"start":12298.581,"end":12319.292,"text":"但是部長因為沒有強迫然後第二個也沒有相關的機制我希望您上任農業部已經升格了我覺得這件事情我們不能再像原始社會一樣比如像比照日本比照相關的先進國家其實分歧包裝是很正常的事情可是在我們這邊變成是很奇怪的事第二個"},{"start":12319.952,"end":12345.47,"text":"沒有戰板化沒有標準化就會看到一大堆現在北農還是一大堆用人力在搬運沒有用起重機在搬運這是一個很原始的地方我希望改建以後這個部分農委會就剛剛您講的軟體的部分裡面相關不管是將來的拍賣或者是將來這些包裝都應該是在農委會以台北為例然後把它提升上來好嗎"},{"start":12346.793,"end":12347.733,"text":"接下來我們請侯木楷委員請做詢討"},{"start":12378.12,"end":12379.522,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":12389.013,"end":12410.865,"text":"陳部長我想還是關心一下國人都非常重視從去年到今年大家都想要知道操司雞蛋弊案爭議到底為何去年9月的時候有台北新北桃園台中高雄五個地檢署都說有接獲到民眾告發或是檢方的檢報分案依時安法或是偽造文書五路期發分案調查"},{"start":12411.385,"end":12438.693,"text":"那到今天有平面媒體報導說9個月了都沒有任何約談相關人士你自己也證實說你沒有被約談我本人我並沒有接受到約談那知道我們農業部有沒有相關人士有被約談或是這個我就沒有去詢問你沒有去詢問對我沒有去詢問所以我確認部長你覺得超思雞蛋這個爭議到現在一年多的時間了到底對農業部的形象好不好"},{"start":12439.748,"end":12466.575,"text":"我覺得會不會希望也如果說真的有人謀不章查出來如果真的沒有還農業部清白還業務同仁這是我的原則所以說那怎麼會您自己也不關心也不了解沒有我強調的就是說檢調單位查處本身如果說有不能不法我覺得不會寬待但是如果沒有不法也要還我們同仁一個清白是啊那但是9個月過去了都還沒有都還沒有讓國人釐清可是相對的齁"},{"start":12468.936,"end":12479.962,"text":"部長您的態度是什麼我想能夠把事情透過程序裡面把事情釐清是最重要的但是現在看到的就是在司法還沒有就是檢調單位還沒有"},{"start":12481.99,"end":12508.929,"text":"確認之前有很多外界的聲音就讓其實讓同仁非常困擾因為以農業部來講就是讓同仁如果說覺得困擾才更應該趕快水落石出嘛因為越滾越大從陳吉仲部長到現在你一樣都是陳部長啊但是我覺得現在國人關注的重點是到底真相為何不管是說超市雞蛋那時候花5.7億來去做補助不管說進口了這個"},{"start":12510.59,"end":12529.641,"text":"一億多顆的這個雞蛋八千多顆的雞蛋巴西來的那到現在到底真相為何還有這個不同公司簽約是A公司然後結果付款是B公司那九個月過去而今天看到這樣的一個媒體結果本席看到你回應媒體講是說我們也希望減掉建樹"},{"start":12530.936,"end":12556.836,"text":"那如果說競速號不是更應該要我們主動積極、機關主動積極的協助來辦理嗎?對,我想檢調如果任何的一個約談或是...所以看起來你沒有被約談我是沒被約談下面同仁就你了解也沒有我沒有去問所以我不清楚那到底有沒有人知道?我們同仁說目前沒有也沒有那看起來前部長陳吉仲也沒有所以都沒有"},{"start":12557.965,"end":12562.768,"text":"國人那麼關心的一個案件結果剪掉到現在也難怪媒體會用頭版頭來報導啊9個月了無盡度嘛"},{"start":12568.599,"end":12590.847,"text":"來部長那我再請教今天我更看到的是裡面有提到一個是說因為採購生鮮雞蛋帶殼雞蛋是屬於生鮮的農漁產品非屬採購法的採購標的但是冷藏倉儲跟雞蛋托運費用是全額補助那依規定是用採購法那沒有用採購法辦理對不對"},{"start":12593.764,"end":12603.633,"text":"從昨天調查報告是這樣子顯示的那我們現在是要追回五成的補助款對針對他應該用適用這種採購法的部分你的理由是什麼會認為是說他應該用採購法他沒有用採購法"},{"start":12609.411,"end":12623.613,"text":"這個我想我發30秒的時間說明一下就是當初續產會在處理這個案子的時候他認為因為雞蛋不是用政府採購法那後續的倉儲跟運輸他們覺得是因為他相對進的少他覺得應該是一批的啦"},{"start":12624.494,"end":12651.851,"text":"但是後來我們行政調查看起來是便宜形式對然後行政單位去看說後面兩個應該要適合採購法那根據這個東西我們會依法把這個錢把它追回來所以照理講我們想請教那個中央續產會他到底應不應該遵守採購法他沒有他用自己的資金都不用他只要簽得到跟政府補助的才有所謂的適不適用政府採購法的問題"},{"start":12653.22,"end":12677.848,"text":"但他的資金來源呢?不也是我們這邊會有相關的一個補助嗎?對 所以說在110年他是一個例行的政府採購嘛 例行的那個產價調節所以他有計畫上來 我們有合計畫下去 那有合計畫下去的話合計畫下去也算是政府補助不是嗎?對 所以說他不適合的時候就要追回就要追回 好 那我們來看一下去年的公文"},{"start":12680.011,"end":12693.14,"text":"工程會已經明白確認了冷凍蛋液跟冷凍蛋黃是冷凍處理非屬生鮮農業產品適用採購法那去年有什麼樣的一個 去年有什麼樣的狀況去年狀況講說"},{"start":12695.16,"end":12695.36,"text":"這是112年的嗎?"},{"start":12711.648,"end":12735.575,"text":"這是112年?2023年啊?112年的部分是所有的那個作業都是續廠會先用他自有資金處理那我們後面的計畫合定補助的設置在後面所以他不符合政府採購法的我們就給他50%以下所以沒有所謂的追求問題是!所以部長我們的冷凍蛋黃跟冷凍蛋液有給他50%以下嗎?就是給他50%以下 沒有啊!"},{"start":12737.395,"end":12760.6,"text":"你之前去年巴西進口的冷凍大法冷凍法也是一樣直接讓他做採購啊沒有你並沒有讓他去用採購法裡面不管是招標或是相關啊他如果沒有採購法的話我們的補助就是低於50%就這樣子沒有這個是去年本期現在拿出來的資料就是去年9月的時候我們有委員在質詢去年10月的時候我們有委員在質詢"},{"start":12761.9,"end":12763.002,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12771.823,"end":12798.551,"text":"沈記長那時候講是說確實純有爭議待釐清要先確認雞蛋是不是生鮮魚農產品那還有冷凍蛋液跟冷凍蛋黃是不是生鮮魚農產品那我們委員去年的時候我們的委員林維周委員就拿出這個公文就說我們在10月3號的時候就問工程會到底冷凍蛋黃農蛋液是不是農漁產品那工程會說不是嘛那現在3個月過去了我們到底有沒有去有"},{"start":12799.671,"end":12802.132,"text":"有交回50%嗎?有低於50%嗎?所以現在本席就要確認因為今天媒體報導已經講是說你的"},{"start":12826.775,"end":12852.047,"text":"冷藏、倉儲跟脫軌費用要收回50%嗎?那我們現在要問過去補助的冷凍蛋黃、冷凍蛋液有沒有要去了解?是不是如果說有補助100%也要收回50%?我現在只問的是是不是一定適用?一定一筆適用就是112年部分如果說他該適用政府採購他沒適用的話就會追回但如果說"},{"start":12853.027,"end":12874.124,"text":"他先買了我們在核定補助債後的時候我就一定不會超過50%是 所以這個就是重點嘛那什麼時候可以把資料釐清因為之前就是有爆發中央續產會就是去購買巴西的或是相關的冷凍蛋液跟冷凍蛋黃但他沒有用採購法他也直接用合約方式就直接採購了"},{"start":12875.465,"end":12901.078,"text":"所以才會讓我們去年有這樣的疑慮並且要求省紀部來去做瞭解省紀部說3個月要給資料到目前也是不了了之那本席就直接請教因為你們已經講了冷凍倉儲只要是符合採購法的追回50%那一樣冷凍蛋黃冷凍蛋液符合採購法這您剛剛已經承認了工程會也公文了那現在什麼時候要去釐清到底過去有哪一些是百分百補助要追回50%"},{"start":12902.403,"end":12902.423,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":12934.073,"end":12935.433,"text":"接下來我們請紅森漢委員請做詢談"},{"start":12975.027,"end":13000.274,"text":"謝謝主席請陳部長我們再請陳部長喂吼部長那個你有沒有察覺吼最近石虎啊草蕭啊穿山甲啊這些瀕臨絕種的保育類的動物啊其實被遊蕩犬咬死的新聞特別多"},{"start":13002.216,"end":13014.182,"text":"我有發現其實現在特別是入沙的部分那其實穿山甲是排名第一我是說被遊蕩犬那遊蕩犬的部分其實實務是比例蠻高的"},{"start":13015.327,"end":13031.558,"text":"從你們農業部統計的數量來看去年2023年在保育類跟所有野生動物被犬隻攻擊的案件裡面其實都是近5年來的新高那這數字大概代表了確實現在遊蕩犬的問題其實是越來越嚴重的"},{"start":13033.49,"end":13055.934,"text":"這問題其實不是只是野生動物被咬死這麼簡單其實我們都知道很多的遊蕩犬牠到了野外是會跟我們的野生動物相互傳染疾病的那很多科學也研究目前其實犬隻跑到野外牠們健康狀況其實更差存活率不到一半所以這個狀況變成是犬隻跟野生動物幾乎都是兩敗俱傷的狀況那部長我要問"},{"start":13060.615,"end":13088.583,"text":"犬隻是你們動保司管理嘛對不對那野生動物保育是林保署對不對那都在農業部所以部長針對這個問題你們打算怎麼辦我想我們針對這個部分其實那個動保司跟那個林保署包括我們都曾經討論過那現在就是我們會針對就是野生動物的熱區的部分先去做這個那個地區的犬隻的調查"},{"start":13090.36,"end":13095.766,"text":"這是今年5月18日的新聞這新聞上面寫說熱區移植有當權就你剛才說的事辦三個月沒下文為什麼這個新聞會這樣我可不可以請我們的動保司長說明一下"},{"start":13108.063,"end":13109.784,"text":"市長,如果你們確定接下來這些計畫是擴大的,也沒有暫停,那我覺得要跟外界說清楚"},{"start":13133.724,"end":13155.342,"text":"現在有很多擔心遊蕩犬的人他們其實看到這個新聞那都覺得那為什麼農業部接下來沒有動作我覺得對外說明清楚的部分要趕快解釋清楚而不是現在讓這樣子我在外面一直看到這個新聞大家都在傳啊我們會來說明清楚特別是台東南投跟苗栗的地區"},{"start":13156.563,"end":13184.709,"text":"部長,我當然肯定如果你們接下擴大座的部分在態度上面我是肯定的但我也看了一下今年你們在十五跟草蕭熱區的計畫那也請教了一些專家學者其實我們也發現有不少可以改進的空間第一個事情是在KPI的部分部長,你們年度目標寫遊蕩權處置率80%但我很好奇如果100隻去處置了80隻但如果後面又再新增了100隻"},{"start":13187.571,"end":13189.402,"text":"那這個處置率還有什麼意義呢?"},{"start":13191.26,"end":13220.183,"text":"你們這並不是整體的母數啊原本的100隻你處置80隻但你沒有去管那會不會有新的跑進來會不會有新的增加啊所以部長針對這個KPI你們覺得需不需要修改我跟委員說明齁我最近在看比較細的這些各單位的這些KPI的部分不只是這個啦還有其他的那些KPI我就覺得要嘛就是純粹一個數字的概念而已並沒有要回應到我們最後的政策的目的在哪邊所以我會就要求很多"},{"start":13220.763,"end":13233.011,"text":"拜託,我覺得這個是很明顯的在邏輯上面的問題所以,布朗如果你覺得OK的話,我是覺得關於這個KPI怎麼設定怎麼設計我覺得都應該有一併的檢討至少我們可以從生態熱區先來因為有蠻多的學者跟我說,確實生態熱區跟這個人類聚集的地方其實它的樣態是不太一樣的部分我覺得至少這可以先來,我們先來檢討KPI可以嗎?"},{"start":13251.504,"end":13271.385,"text":"我接下來也要問其實我們現在在法規上關於事主的責任是有明確的規範的不管是寵物登記啦不管是絕育啦施打疫苗啦不可棄養啦其實我們都有法源依據但現在問題是每次我們跟動保師討論動保師就跟我們說因為人力不足雖然法規都有所以很難落實執法"},{"start":13272.927,"end":13300.002,"text":"這是現在的問題可是我們明明看到遊蕩權越來越多但是執法端卻一直說資源不足、人力不足部長你覺得該怎麼辦我想我們之前也跟那個人事實行人種族那邊去爭取像動保法的動保的人力包括重要的部分跟地方限制政府的人力也要增加這個是正常的另外一個是用最壞人力我們現在變成是這些法規擺著不動變擺著好看"},{"start":13301.087,"end":13309.083,"text":"不會有人因為這受罰 不然我有一個建議我們剛剛都講到生態熱區的問題 我們有沒有可能我們的執法就在生態熱區來優先執法"},{"start":13312.12,"end":13335.046,"text":"優先盡情管理生態熱區的範圍當然比整體來說都小也更聚集如果資源不足的話至少在生態熱區上面我們就按照法規來你要有一定的宣導期我也贊成你可以在生態熱區有個幾個月一年的宣導期讓大家都知道我接下來開始要管理這些事情我也都同意可是我們不能法規擺的都不動啊"},{"start":13335.746,"end":13362.92,"text":"了解我想我非常同意先從生態樂區開始包括你人力的投入資源的投入可以從這邊開始投入是一回事但我剛剛現在說的是關節而把變也要開始著手進行我知道也許整個台灣的範圍很大你們人力確實不足但至少這些地方重點區域是可以開始的這部分你要有個宣導期我也不反對這樣好不好部長從這個地方我們優先開始最後一個我要要求主席再給我一分鐘"},{"start":13364.261,"end":13379.28,"text":"我們現在看到很多這些相關的計畫農業部其實大家都抱怨啦有點像關起門來自己做啦部長我其實是要求我們這些相關的包括資訊的公開包括你相關計畫書成效的評估其實都應該定期的公開"},{"start":13380.181,"end":13407.49,"text":"最後一個我是想要請部長這是很多我們生態界的專家學者們請我一定要跟你反映的我們應該定一個定期檢討的機制那這個定期檢討的機制裡面有關於資料的公開資訊的公開的部分讓外部的學者外部的各個專業者一起來參與而不會讓大家都覺得說你好像農業部自己搞自己的外面也不知道你在搞什麼也拿不到數據拿不到資料可是外面只有看到遊蕩犬的數字一直增加"},{"start":13408.41,"end":13408.51,"text":"拜託,謝謝部長"},{"start":13438.31,"end":13444.755,"text":"主席,麻煩請部長我們再請陳部長謝謝"},{"start":13467.601,"end":13493.512,"text":"部長首先我是覺得對於農業部在淡的這個產銷管理我真的覺得非常奇怪今年7月1號開始又要跟養雞協會合作又要開始殺老母雞去年的時候說要補助老母雞說進口種雞那時候很多農民跟農業部講說進口太多就會造成產能過剩那農業部說沒關係先進再講然後結果進了之後我們農業部又要再花錢去殺老母雞"},{"start":13494.622,"end":13523.367,"text":"那你會不會又會造成說到時候彈又缺彈我不知道部長能不能承諾不會再造成缺彈狀況我跟委員說明就是整個彈機場的產業鏈裡面老母機的淘汰是一個彈籠本來在這做的那我們是提供誘因讓他加速這個老母機的淘汰去年鼓勵人家多進然後今年又對叫他加速去殺然後進口彈去年的話一直進一堆進了一堆之後再花錢把它銷毀"},{"start":13524.487,"end":13549.507,"text":"我跟委員說明齁,就是您剛才...不打沒關係啦,你如果認為沒有錯的話,我是希望你可以檢討一下,因為這個產銷問題都是花人民的納稅錢,把人民的納稅錢1.1都浪費掉,然後又會造成缺蛋。我希望農業部可以把這個蛋的問題你們仔細思考一下,怎麼從源頭把它管理,不是頭都一頭腳痛一腳啦。但我今天想要問,還是一向我想要問這個,超市的問題,續產會的問題。"},{"start":13551.388,"end":13554.812,"text":"因為農業部當時大家在問說續展會這個採購有沒有問題農業部當初是說沒問題欸你們第一時間是說沒問題欸你們說因為續展會是用自有資金購買財物所以沒問題然後甚至於還推說續展會我們調查不到"},{"start":13567.587,"end":13583.568,"text":"結果現在被大家發現說不是沒問題包括你們自己剛剛你跟其他委員的詢答你都承認嘛在冷鏈還有運費這一塊他們是沒有用採購法所以是違法了嘛你現在又有問題我不知道說到底農業部跟續產會之間關係是什麼"},{"start":13585.43,"end":13596.646,"text":"因為續產會...你未來會跟他...不會跟他拒絕往來嘛你還會透過很多補助給他去採購很多農產品嘛那你到底有沒有在監督他你到底是什麼管制還有一開始第一時間為什麼是推脫"},{"start":13598.874,"end":13611.67,"text":"我跟委員說明就是續展會跟農業部的關係是我們農業部是它的督導單位所以續展會的所有的行政方面的部分我們農業部都有權利去做相關的調查你們農業部一開始面對外界質疑說續展會是用自有資金買"},{"start":13617.598,"end":13638.958,"text":"這是兩件事情齁就是我都從續產會本身的管理的部分農業部是負責督導的我們有權利去做相關的行政的一個查核這個部分是是沒問題的那第二個部分就是續產會如果有些產交條件他用自有資金先用了以後跟農業跟農業部請款的時候那就要付"},{"start":13639.278,"end":13653.656,"text":"有一部分是符合政府採購法就要政府採購法不符合政府採購法的部分我們就會50%以下那另外一類就是111年這一類他是在年度先核計劃年度先核計劃的時候他如果後續沒有照相關的規範的時候"},{"start":13654.637,"end":13679.77,"text":"那不符合規範的我們錢就會收回來當然嘛可是你這個就是後見之明你理論上來講你現在續產會是來解決國內大家缺蛋的問題所以農業部才會補助他一筆錢讓他去採購所以你先前就要跟他講清楚啊在採購的時候比如說要符合採購法規範你蛋可以不用公開不用符合採購法但是你其他運費冷鏈你要符合採購法你連這一點事情你們都無法督導"},{"start":13680.27,"end":13705.391,"text":"還要事後說你來跟我請款的時候我少給一點那我就覺得非常奇怪續產會不是大部分資金來源都是農業部嗎那這也都是人民的納稅錢啊你跟他少請的他如果虧本的話最後還不是很多時候農業部也是要補助給他所以為什麼不能事先解決一定要事後這個事情啪啪之後然後才要說喔那這個事情已經被外界知道了所以呢這個補助我們要減一半不過我想這樣農業部的態度非常消極欸"},{"start":13706.632,"end":13723.845,"text":"這個部分就是相關的這些補助案本身他就部長我只想問你啦接下來還會發生一樣狀況就是說你透過續產會要解決國內的某一個農產品稀缺的問題然後一樣讓他先去買然後他不合法之後呢你再叫他追繳"},{"start":13724.545,"end":13746.076,"text":"所以未來還會發生一樣的狀況嗎?我想不是說不合法以後才去追究沒有符合採購法就是不合法嗎?我開始剛才有跟其他委員講這個是續產會本身在這個雞蛋的採購過程中的倉儲他們是誤解的以為是他是跟著雞蛋一起一條包裝的所以後來他們了解 理論上 部長 理論上續產會跟你的關係非常密切嗎?"},{"start":13746.997,"end":13759.109,"text":"續產會董事長是林聰賢以前是農業部應該也是官派的吧這麼密切一個單位結果會讓他誤解那農業部都完全沒責任一部就是說沒關係我就少給你一點錢好像所有責任都是續產會"},{"start":13761.21,"end":13782.269,"text":"應該不是這樣吧部長 農業部對於去產會完全沒有任何督導跟管理的責任我們負有督導的責任 是嘛 所以我說相關的有很多的行政的疏失當然就是過去的事情要追究要追究 我現在講的時候那未來勒因為我現在跟部長詢答的感覺是說 都覺得你沒有錯嘛都覺得說那是去產會的事情嘛 那未來去產會是不是一樣會類似的狀況嘛"},{"start":13785.111,"end":13794.742,"text":"政府部門就要依法行事那相關的規範就要符合政府採購法這是一個大原則你若違反的話若你是惡意的故意的沒有問題是說未來農業部對於續產會是不是還是一樣的放任是不是我們絕對不會我們已經在加強續產會的管理了就是說續產會採購的時候又誤解了然後又沒有透過公開採購"},{"start":13806.275,"end":13827.746,"text":"政府採購法又繞過了然後然後農業部再說那我少給你補助這樣無止境循環會發生這樣的狀況嗎?你有沒有把握說未來跟蓄產會的監督到位我們一定會更積極的去監督這個那相關的成功率的底下有沒有能不能不上是另外一回事喔因為現在檢調在查我就不臆測但是我現在在問農業部的你的官方行政責任嘛"},{"start":13828.246,"end":13836.577,"text":"第二有關於超思跟亮彩的關係到底查清楚沒有為什麼巨展會是跟亮彩簽約付錢付給超思為什麼"},{"start":13838.131,"end":13841.675,"text":"為什麼你是跟亮采簽約他也是付錢給超市這沒辦法問嗎我告訴你我們不會聽信任的一方的齁"},{"start":13858.453,"end":13863.258,"text":"公部門講話對話講話要附我們的事實的證據那證據的部分要請檢調單位去處理我請問一下農業部有沒有去問區長會為什麼是這樣的採訪對我來講我覺得他們是商業關係商業關係是司法人的關係應該請檢調單位去進行所以農業部沒有問的意思嘛對連查都沒有查嘛你連"},{"start":13876.852,"end":13885.8,"text":"到現在為止大家外界關心的操司跟量產關係你都還沒有去釐清是這個意思嗎?是推給司法嗎?剛剛我前面在跟你講的是說農業部和續產會的關係你要督導續產會在採購要符合一定的規定嘛"},{"start":13898.812,"end":13924.202,"text":"基本上你跟A廠商簽約卻付款給B廠商這非常罕見的結果你正在一個督導的責任你連問說為什麼他是這樣的行為你都說那跟你沒關係推給司法那你農業部到底要怎麼去怎麼去管理續產會的單位我覺得委員你要把事情分清楚我剛才說的司法人的關係是量財跟超市之間的違法的我們行政局沒辦法處理所以請移行檢調當然可以處理嘛因為你是管理單位嘛"},{"start":13924.682,"end":13946.28,"text":"你是督導單位嘛你要不要做而已嘛我真不相信農業部每年補助那麼多錢給續產會你連問這個你都不能問我真的不相信啦我真的不相信啦我問不出答案沒有關係但所有人都看得出來農業部對續產會就是這個態度嘛連大家這麼關心的超市跟量產的關係你都說那是司法關係跟我們沒有關係"},{"start":13946.8,"end":13970.998,"text":"來,謝謝"},{"start":13972.116,"end":13994.734,"text":"接下來我們請蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員我們請徐欣宇委員 徐欣宇 徐欣宇委員我們請陳冠廷委員 陳冠廷 陳冠廷委員我們最後請邱志維委員 請做選擇今天發言時間是4加6還是4加6還是4加8"},{"start":14001.021,"end":14025.678,"text":"我都很按照時間順序時間到我就會很準時,因為怕會影響到下一個同仁的生意這個時間到一直不下來,一直問我在台下我不是沒到,我台下已經到了這個國會應該增加一個霸凌這個同僚罪霸凌國會議員罪"},{"start":14028.633,"end":14037.737,"text":"請做宣達來,先請這個農業部陳部長我們再請陳部長部長,我聽到整部、整套詞有六個問題但問題趕快處理好,脫離這個戰場,農業部變成雞蛋部"},{"start":14055.656,"end":14069.225,"text":"我希望能夠更快的釐清如果有不對就改進 如果他們有不實的指控 有不實的質詢 你們當然要反駁 不實的證據 不實的論述 你們就會強烈的反駁 對不對所以你要了解為什麼會一直循環這個問題 就是你是不是預測的機制有問題"},{"start":14081.038,"end":14106.941,"text":"看一下那個過去10年,過去10年那個但不是缺就是剩,缺剩缺剩缺剩這一次循環嘛,就在你這個預測生產預測機制有沒有可能要優化一點,如果你的生產預測機制不好不健全,那你預測就會失準,就會變成產銷失調嘛,供應跟需求供應跟需求永遠對不上,"},{"start":14108.513,"end":14114.349,"text":"所以你這個生產預設機制是不是能夠過去的經驗就用大數據你現在不是有你的AI嗎?"},{"start":14115.711,"end":14138.446,"text":"你用這個去預測你該怎麼樣去處理,不要每次這個產銷失調的時候就去補助。不是補助進口,就是補助淘汰這個寡產蛋機。一直在循環。所以問題是你還數課程之後,到底問題出在哪裡?你們可以用AI、用人工智慧去協助優化你們的生產預測機制。"},{"start":14139.966,"end":14145.21,"text":"那避免這個預測機制失衡嗎?博麟你也看完了嗎?"},{"start":14170.009,"end":14172.769,"text":"對我們會這樣子然後這次最主要是消費端的那個拉力需求力拉不起來啦"},{"start":14199.754,"end":14204.337,"text":"今天主題是農業移工政策改善提出精進作為精進作為你必須要有一個時間表精進作為兩個面向增加人力供給第二個"},{"start":14229.181,"end":14242.667,"text":"就是減少減省人力需求攻擊面增加然後呢需求面把它降低對不對是你們進行做那你也有時間表好第一個你們上個禮拜"},{"start":14244.195,"end":14260.329,"text":"跟相關的單位有結論按照這個農業能力需求跟勞動部提案申請增加農糧跟畜牧產業的農業移工緣額來 那個農業部有代表來 那個勞動部 這個什麼時候會執行 這個什麼時候會執行 那個部長 你們"},{"start":14264.994,"end":14293.561,"text":"我們現在是預估就是因為我們現在的一萬兩千人大概預估到年底會大概滿了現在是八千多人那我們已經啟動這個評估八千人現期旅籍你們有這個會議結論你們要跟提案跟勞動部提案嘛對不對什麼時候要提那提出多少元額他們7月開會的時候就因為勞動部有例行的一個會議我們在7月的時候就會提出去所以你這些要訓明清楚然後讓讓所有的這個有需求的單位瞭解你們一定有做了這些相關的作為"},{"start":14294.844,"end":14307.695,"text":"另外你們加強改善季節性缺工的問題好你說移工跨區這年農會都不知道嘛移工可以跨區是跨區還是跨市跨縣市都可以"},{"start":14308.968,"end":14310.069,"text":"現在開始在引進移工了"},{"start":14334.392,"end":14353.64,"text":"所以你要把這個做法 讓所有的需求單位了解 可以跨區你有很多政策 雖然是利益良善 但是往往我們這個基層需求單位不了解 我們有哪些有效的政策所以你們要加強宣導 跟這個相關的農事單位或是農會組織 農場加強去宣導"},{"start":14362.816,"end":14387.024,"text":"所以很多政策就是你們缺乏宣傳然後你未來這個你要把這個本來本勞跟外勞的合配比這個上上禮拜我開過記者會農業缺工這是一個存在已久的問題但你拿出來對策沒有辦法有效解決嘛如果有效解決就不會一直有缺工嘛對不對 這代表你們政策失靈啊"},{"start":14388.717,"end":14409.316,"text":"所以你現在未來要把你這個10天以下事業單位合位比跟這個一般農民團體相同這部分什麼時候上路?我們也是大概在7月的會議的時候我們一併會提出來所以這個就是要趕快建機旅機然後你說減省人力需求每一鄉鎮都要有農機Uber"},{"start":14410.12,"end":14429.519,"text":"什麼什麼上路我們大概現在開始已經在推動了齁那我們預計齁我們現在大概4年之內會全部的一鄉鎮一Uber但是兩年一鄉鎮一Uber對就是重大的產業區重大的重要的產區裡面一鄉鎮是一Uber我以為你這個連台北市信義區都要重要的農業生產區才有啦所以你要把這個"},{"start":14431.581,"end":14450.04,"text":"你不是每鄉鎮都成立,你應該是這個農業縣主要的,不是農業縣所有的鄉鎮都需要,對不對?你要把這些區域把它列明出來,包括高雄市、台南市、屏東縣有哪些鄉鎮有這個所謂的農機Wolver"},{"start":14453.137,"end":14453.257,"text":"了解"},{"start":14464.743,"end":14485.864,"text":"我講我們這個政策才在上個月沒有應該是兩三個禮拜前確認然後現在正在去規劃每一區的政府區然後現在已經有15團的所以我們會去針對重要的產區去做規劃大力道有政策要有效率而且要有效果雙效合一人民才有感"},{"start":14487.306,"end":14508.708,"text":"現在AI的產業會影響到農業相關系統的招生狀況嗎?比如說人文相關系統受到影響對不對?大家都往AI相關的產業去就學大學的招生都是往AI會不會影響到農業相關系統的招生"},{"start":14509.788,"end":14531.347,"text":"我想會有一些影響 今年狀況你們有沒有去了解 我們有曾經跟相關的大學的老師去討論那相關的就是AI的部分可能是 你們是預測未來10年我們農業相關系所的招生的下降的比率 人數的比率這個都要"},{"start":14532.674,"end":14546.935,"text":"對阿你要有10年期的計劃按照這些變化裡面有哪些對策最後再10秒鐘齁我前天去看這個永安永安這個永信漁港要永安去永信漁港那個我想張書文也在齁"},{"start":14548.637,"end":14569.419,"text":"這個永興漁港在永安區它的這個過去的這個漁港設施當然是老舊了那現在海洋局提出了這個計畫我也當面去看這個對漁民對漁業都有很大的幫助我希望說張署長跟這個陳部長能夠全力支持對我們確定會支持這三千萬你來倒數你勒"},{"start":14571.786,"end":14571.806,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":14603.035,"end":14603.681,"text":"那接下來"},{"start":14607.947,"end":14633.158,"text":"我們登記發言的委員除了不在場外其餘都已經發言完畢,詢答結束我們有陳庭輝委員以及陳冠廷委員所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報那書面質詢以及位置答覆的部分請於一周之內以書面答覆並複製本會那本日議程處理完畢謝謝大家散會我們休息兩分鐘就繼續協商"},{"start":14637.356,"end":14637.556,"text":"主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}