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謝謝那因為高金委員沒有來那我們接下來就進行機關代表報告一樣時間3分鐘請原住民委員會中副主任委員報告"},{"start":2279.639,"end":2306.191,"text":"主席各位委員大家早首先對於各位委員就本會的組織重視和指導表達由衷的感謝今天貴委員會聯席會議審查大院兩位委員的就有關原住民組織法的第三條第四條修正草案兩個版本本會應邀列席報告並備行請就下列事項來做一個說明第一個就是有關修正"},{"start":2307.489,"end":2334.974,"text":"本法第三條的部分政委員提案本本會的首長由三地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任首長之任命由行政院長提名僅具原住民身份之直轄市議員縣市議員鄉鎮市區長召開審查會同意以及本會首長任期保障與限制等查憲法第56條明文規定各部會首長由行政院院長提請總統任命"},{"start":2337.275,"end":2351.051,"text":"故委員提案內容系增加前開憲法明定行政院長人事任命權所無之限制與前開憲法規定有漢格之餘此外民主政治與責任政治為重要內涵"},{"start":2352.285,"end":2372.213,"text":"現代法治國家的組織政府推行政務應直接或間接對人民負責根據憲法修正條文第三條第二項規定行政院對立法院負責此來我國憲法基於責任政治原理所為之制定性設計憲法第53條也揭示之行政一體其意旨意在此"},{"start":2373.365,"end":2402.037,"text":"所有行政院掌理之行政事務應接受行政院院長之指示指揮監督,而得盡由行政院對立法院負責之途徑,落實對人民負責之憲法要求。故委員提案本會首長之任命須經具原住民身份之直轄市議員、縣市議員、鄉鎮市區長同意,恐使國家對於原住民族政策之責任有所措施,亦恐與上開憲法及憲法正確條文規定有違。"},{"start":2403.803,"end":2428.66,"text":"另外,高金委員提到本會首長兼任行政院政務委員一節,有助於原住民族事務跨部會之協調與推動,且施以行政組織法第五條第二項規定,政務委員得兼任前條委員之主任委員之精神相近,為施設行政院人事任用法規解釋之適用,敬請徵詢人事主管機關意見。另外,就針對第四條的部分,委員提案本會"},{"start":2431.175,"end":2452.161,"text":"委員均改為五己職一節本會委員其分為聘用委員、兼派委員、聘兼委員三類其中兼派委員以及聘兼委員為五己職原住民族十六族代表之聘用委員是依聘用人員聘用條例約聘禁用性質屬於公務人員有己職依據本會的初步規程附有相關興起審查聯繫會議"},{"start":2457.569,"end":2467.081,"text":"參與各種研究、調查以及主持專案小組參加部落的碎石技藝、民俗文化等相關活動而且本會作為原住民族政策統籌機關服務對象及範圍"},{"start":2470.657,"end":2488.256,"text":"擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一�"},{"start":2488.716,"end":2514.871,"text":"並且擔任機關與原住民族各組之間重要的溝通橋樑,使本會的業務推展更為順遂,談會改會無幾值,將難以使其負擔散開的工作職責恐影響本會的業務推動。以上的報告。好,謝謝副主委。好,那其餘的機關報告參閱書面。好,那機關代表報告完畢。相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄。"},{"start":2518.519,"end":2544.209,"text":"提案說明及機關報告都已經進行完畢我們現在開始進行詢答今天是司法法制跟內政兩個委員會聯席會議成員人數比較多一例本聯席會委員詢答時間為6分鐘非本聯席會委員詢答時間為3分鐘均不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2556.921,"end":2557.382,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2566.056,"end":2588.721,"text":"副主委早了,尤其上次對於人民會執行的內容我對於花納稅的錢拍主委的馬屁這件事情完全沒有辦法接受為什麼這樣看我們的賴清德總統事實上在清廉的要求非常的高很早以前他就說要杜絕拍馬屁文化的態度"},{"start":2590.533,"end":2599.86,"text":"結果我們來看看我們的原民會主委前任的幹了什麼事情花了145萬納稅人的公帑出他個人成果專刊這個人成果專刊不是在講原民會做了什麼是在講他個人的分工為業我們來看一看"},{"start":2617.935,"end":2627.504,"text":"原住民族八年施政成果專刊有沒有出 有出花了一百一十二萬頁數有兩百二十一頁我手上就是八年的專刊結果前主委移將今年花了一百四十幾萬出了一頁"},{"start":2644.5,"end":2649.945,"text":"兩百一百二十五頁一百二十五頁的書啊我當初在質詢的時候啊他說什麼他說這當然不是在推銷我個人啊他指責說我還沒有看到我的專看內容出版的時候會提供給我們參考現在出版了"},{"start":2670.236,"end":2678.042,"text":"我手上就這本書啊這本書叫什麼?原權推手 陳先啟後 宜將把路兒這本書的作者是誰?請 這本書的作者是誰?呃 園民會這本書的作者是園民會那奇怪了他提名是原權推手他指的是誰?宜將把路兒宜將把路兒 來來看看"},{"start":2697.472,"end":2725.683,"text":"具繫米儀描述主委的生平一百二十五頁有四十頁在吹捧他的生長、求學還有原因的啟蒙六十頁全部都是他的照片一百二十五頁花了上百頁在介紹他的生平到各個地方去的照片"},{"start":2727.131,"end":2751.348,"text":"這本書副主委你看過沒有我對於這樣子內容的摘要你同不同意對這本書的確是在整理過程中有多論述他個人的一些對原住民的相關奮鬥歷程他個人啊我們花公務預算在搞這種事情喔真的在討論過去這8年原民會做什麼的有幾頁有幾頁"},{"start":2758.669,"end":2778.963,"text":"我沒有進那個頁數後面還是有提到我們沒關係我幫你整理出來啦24頁24頁我下一個問題啊24頁的內容有哪一個項目是這本書沒寫的有哪一個項目是你們之前的八年成果專開沒寫的全部啊都是用棒數非常足的銅板紙"},{"start":2787.987,"end":2792.088,"text":"花了一百四十幾萬在搞個人宣傳我們看裡面嘛他的原因 啟蒙之路他小時候的照片他念書時候的照片下面60頁他到各個地方的照片這本書後面的價格"},{"start":2817.91,"end":2821.271,"text":"一本三百塊原民會買了幾本這一本書一本三百塊我是不相信放在書店的書架上有人會買的這本書原民會買了幾本我們沒有買沒有買一百四十五萬換了幾本回去原民會"},{"start":2844.891,"end":2848.753,"text":"這個標案書出出來 你花了一百四十五萬嘛 是你拿到幾本書應該都有一百 一兩百本一兩百本 所以一本多少錢一百四十五萬 你拿到一百本 一本多少錢"},{"start":2869.451,"end":2879.358,"text":"我不是買的 就是因為出版單位對 所以你花了145萬給你一百本這個東西公務的錢是這樣花的喔平均一本1.45萬拿來吹捧族委可以這樣幹喔原民會是預算太多是不是錢花不完是不是可以這樣搞喔"},{"start":2900.438,"end":2901.479,"text":"你覺得適合嗎?納稅的錢這樣花你覺得適合嗎?展現你的態度啊納稅的錢這樣花你覺得適合嗎?請說明各位報告我想當初可能也就是因為一向主委在任內8年也的確"},{"start":2928.294,"end":2956.434,"text":"有一些工作我們做了八年的一些政策不是出過一本八年成果專刊了嗎對我們也希望就是跟他個人在長期為原住民整個所以你的意思是說你們要為這一筆錢的花費持續的辯護未來還會這樣搞是不是不會不會應該因為前面幾天不會啊你如果沒有做錯你為什麼不這樣搞每一個主委都可以出啊前面前面幾天也有做過那樣的一些整理"},{"start":2957.133,"end":2971.767,"text":"有搞得這麼誇張喔?應該沒有那麼細來看一下政府機關辦理政策宣導不可以下列方式置入性行銷不可以做首長自我宣傳這個有沒有違反政府機關政策文宣規劃執行注意事項有還是沒有"},{"start":2985.305,"end":3008.846,"text":"我們還是做一個政策說明啦你現在還在講政策說明喔125頁上百頁都是他個人的宣傳跟照片然後你現在跟我講說這個是政策說明那如果按照你這樣解釋125頁上百頁在做個人的宣傳沒有違反這個注意事項那請問什麼時候會違反這個注意事項"},{"start":3015.249,"end":3020.932,"text":"請說明你要怎麼檢討可以啊來來來來來行政院主計總出預算法62條之一執行原則不可以違反我剛所講的注意事項你說要檢討有沒有違反好"},{"start":3037.267,"end":3050.334,"text":"有沒有違反剛剛的注意事項這個錢可不可以用公帑出還是要請儀將自己花145萬把那100本買回去這經費可以報銷嗎以後園民會還會幹這種事嗎你剛剛說要檢討 可以 需要多久檢討不是用嘴巴講的啦書面檢討報告"},{"start":3065.287,"end":3078.393,"text":"有沒有違反規定錢誰要出金費可不可以報銷你說要檢討給你時間檢討需要多久一個禮拜夠不夠一個月的時間一個月這種事情的檢討要檢討一個月喔委員會的效率這麼差喔這麼簡單的事情要檢討一個月喔兩個禮拜好不好可以嗎好"},{"start":3093.604,"end":3093.704,"text":"蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":3124.576,"end":3147.031,"text":"副主委副主委好副主委那我就問你今天的質詢題目啦今天質詢題目是這個原民會的組織法嗎要不要照這個政委員的版本修正還有高金委員的版本嗎是這樣你覺得今天這版本可行嗎委員提出的版本原民會這28年來"},{"start":3150.332,"end":3178.07,"text":"這對組織法的運作過程在不同政黨的執政的情況下其實都還算推動還蠻順利的這樣這順利的原因是因為原民會可以理解到這個原住民族朋友的需求大致上來說不管是國民黨執政時期還是民黨執政時期應該都是朝著要為族人做事的方向來做的嘛這沒有問題嘛對不對好那我們的原民會主委是山原平原都有擔任過嗎都有擔任過都有擔任過是好啊是輪流嗎"},{"start":3179.316,"end":3183.219,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員鄭天財"},{"start":3209.844,"end":3210.329,"text":"而因為這個就是"},{"start":3212.469,"end":3240.318,"text":"市財市所市財市所我想如果照今天的我們修正的版本鄭委員的版本通過之後那現在的部分會變成是山園平原的話是一定要輪流擔任而且啊其實我看他今天的鄭委員的這個條文文字裡面其實有幾個地方我看不太懂如果我們到時候進入這個主條的話也可能要請鄭委員多說明一下第一他是要求輪流輪流的意思是"},{"start":3240.998,"end":3241.539,"text":"委員高金素梅"},{"start":3261.241,"end":3286.477,"text":"好那他第二個他說次長的部分他說應由山地原住民與平地原住民擔任啊這句話是什麼意思我也看不太懂這個到底是分別擔任各要有一席呢還是是說只要有這個山地原住民身份跟平地原住民身份就可以那如果是這樣有身份就可以那就跟原條文有原住民身份其實是一樣意思啊那這樣好像也不用修正嘛好那再來的話"},{"start":3287.458,"end":3291.962,"text":"他現在說我們現在的原民會組委如果行政院長提名之後要有全國的原住民身份的民意代表甚至是鄉鎮區長召開審查會同意後才任命之我不曉得你有沒有跟政委員討論過或者了解他的意思這個同意是要怎麼個同意法是要全體同意"},{"start":3312.399,"end":3338.427,"text":"還是是四分之三同意還是是二分之一同意他這個同意是什麼意思啊你們有瞭解過嗎還有現在這樣具有身份來同意的人數有多少人啊目前我們出大概有將近一百位不過還要再精確一點有將近一百位喔這數字不是應該很明確嗎直轄市議員大概一百零位直轄市議員有二十二位縣市議員有四十六位鄉鎮市區長"},{"start":3340.448,"end":3359.884,"text":"所以101位裡面到底要怎麼個同意法這條文看起來好像也沒有理解嘛對不對然後如果我們看他的立法理由說明的話是說哇這個主委齁如果沒有做過地方基層官員或民代的歷練將難以精確掌握原住民族的需求不利事務推動"},{"start":3361.922,"end":3388.103,"text":"所以這樣子的話副主委以你現在的角度來看過去的這個幾位主委孫大川孫主委你覺得他做的怎麼樣馬英九任命的孫大川孫主委你覺得他怎麼樣其實前孫主委很稱職很稱職孫主委有做過地方基層官員或者是民意代表嗎他是學者他是學者嗎是所以這樣以後孫大川這樣的人都不能夠來為原住民族服務沒有辦法擔任主委這樣你同意嗎"},{"start":3390.093,"end":3399.384,"text":"這是適材適用而且是院長的提名權所以你到底是同意還是不同意啊?你要一定要我像其他委員這樣問你是或否嗎?"},{"start":3400.891,"end":3423.753,"text":"當然會比較狹隘了因為如果說學者專家對原住民事務很多人都非常所以其實今天是這樣嘛大家都非常的肯認社會上優秀的人才出身不只一種更何況人事權行政院長的人事權行政權裡面包含的人事統一權其實是憲法所賦予的"},{"start":3424.193,"end":3441.839,"text":"如果我們今天可以用這樣的態度是說原民會的組委行政院長要任命的原民會組委是要經過全國的民意機關原民的需要原民身份的民意機關來做同意才可以任命上任的話那我今天是不是也可以要求說內政部長"},{"start":3443.8,"end":3462.567,"text":"以後也應該要有全台灣各縣市首長及各鄉鎮首長、區長大家一起來投票同意,同意之後才可以上任教育部長也是啦,全國的小學、國中、高中、大學、校長都來同意,乾脆連校長都要全體學生同意,這樣難道不會亂了套嗎?"},{"start":3465.248,"end":3476.833,"text":"我是覺得其實原民會在表示這個意見的時候其實你們說的很委婉啦但是第一這是憲法層次的行政權的部分其實不應該照最近的這種氛圍齁又是剝奪行政權裡面的人事權又是剝奪行政院裡面的預算配置權這都是在削弱行政權的一種手法甚至我必須說啦"},{"start":3493.621,"end":3493.801,"text":"主席"},{"start":3513.254,"end":3520.12,"text":"今天叫我們站在這裡然後如果因為我這樣子反對他這個粗糙的修法就把我說成是打壓人民那我反而會覺得你這個其實是在挑撥原住民族人朋友之間甚至和整體社會之間的一個情緒而已嘛我們是立法委員應該是要看法條訂的好不好合不合理合不合憲不是是應該是這樣嗎"},{"start":3540.424,"end":3555.356,"text":"主委、副主委我是希望如果進入主條的時候你們要把所有的理由現實上的至愛難行之處以及法條的不完備處要能夠比今天的書面報告要講得更清楚"},{"start":3556.377,"end":3579.251,"text":"因為這顯然是一個違法違憲的條文不應該這樣修啦這樣才是真正守護原住民族朋友的優秀人才可以來市財市所擔任主委以及擔任副主委這些官員這些政務官的資格和機會你是在替優秀人才守護機會這一點一定要大聲說出來啦是是謝謝副主委是謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":3585.537,"end":3610.207,"text":"謝書委員那我們下一位請審法會委員發言主席我們先請副主委麻煩副主委委員好副主委早這個"},{"start":3613.44,"end":3637.932,"text":"今天為什麼主委沒有來?主委有其他的任務,所以如果來這邊,他也請假。在我看來,今天這個原住民會組織法的修正,這個對我們原民會來講當然是一個重大的其實如果說我們今天按照這個修正案通過,這一定會是我們原民會"},{"start":3639.383,"end":3660.637,"text":"的一個重大變革是所以這個應該是非常重要的議題所以主委沒有來我有點驚訝這個這個我想剛才幾位這個蘇曉慧委員她也的質詢她也講的大概相當清楚那我大概大概看了這個目前這樣子"},{"start":3663.236,"end":3688.298,"text":"這個委員所提出的修正草案有關這個第三條大概就是第三條跟第四條的修正草案裡面大概有幾個議題他雖然只有兩條的修正但是議題蠻多的應該有五個他有大概五個變動那我想這幾個變動裡面我有一些部分我是真的因為他的我也很仔細的看了我們這個提案委員他的立法說明那有的立法說明我就不是"},{"start":3689.654,"end":3706.2,"text":"我寫的沒有很清楚我也不是很理解那我又不能找提案委員上來質詢所以可能這些問題我就等一下留待如果說有再進入大體討論或主條討論的時候有機會再跟他們溝通那有一些問題我再先跟副主委來釐清這個大概有幾個議題第一個就是說"},{"start":3710.261,"end":3736.831,"text":"在這個第三條的部分有修正案提出要由原民會主委兼任行政院政務委員這是第一個議題第二個就是在第四條就是有主委的部分要山地原住民跟平地原住民輪流擔任這個是第二個議題第三個問題是這個這個主委的任命必須經過這個"},{"start":3739.719,"end":3761.986,"text":"限制議員跟區長的同意這是另外一個問題第四個議題是副主委目前規定是三名副主委裡面兩名原住民這個修正草案做下去是三個人都要原住民最後有一個就是在第四條的時候他們拿掉了這個"},{"start":3765.046,"end":3774.258,"text":"拿掉了這個依聘用辦法的部分就是將這個我們的這個本會的委員改為無極職大概就這應該就這五個問題對不對對分析這五項這裡面齁"},{"start":3779.366,"end":3806.917,"text":"剛才這個委員在提案說明的時候也有提到我先談說組委由這個三元平原的輪流剛才蘇小慧委員也有提到因為我們這個組委不是固定任期今天假設有一個組委任命了一個組委是山地原住民結果他經過一個月體檢發現身體實在不行一個月之後辭職那就下一個要換平地原住民還是那這個平地原住民一上來之後又被週刊爆料有婚外情"},{"start":3807.813,"end":3831.939,"text":"一個禮拜再換,那又變成三立原住民他是這個意思,而且法條我實在搞不太懂,說他這個所謂輪流齁輪流擔任,因為他沒有任期制嘛,這個不是說像那其他委員會的這些主委他有主委任期,所以你可以說這一任三圓,下一任平圓他這個沒有任期制他隨時會變的嘛,對不對?是,各位委員包括他裡面也有提到四年的時間,任期"},{"start":3832.199,"end":3854.558,"text":"所以他把任期固定成4年固定成4年然後再來但是也提到說事實上現在目前憲法裡面有關山地原住民、平地原住民目前這樣的區分事實上在很多原住民的包括原住民委員這些包括提案委員自己本身都非常質疑說憲法現在這個山地原住民跟平地原住民跟原住民生活型態實際上生活型態已經已經"},{"start":3858.804,"end":3879.895,"text":"現在不是說住在山地原住民鄉的就是山地原住民住在一般都市就平地原住民現在不是啊現在很多山地原住民他也住在都市裡面啊對不對所以這個山地原住民跟平地原住民的區分方式這個本身雖然規定在憲法上面但是事實上原住民對於山地原住民平地原住民的區分本身就"},{"start":3880.655,"end":3888.828,"text":"就已經有相當大的質疑那現在還要再將這樣子大家已經有質疑更何況喔憲法判決第17項他未來未來是連連這個平虎族"},{"start":3893.922,"end":3919.955,"text":"一一樣會納入原住民來嘛那這個如果現在我們在這樣子一個學理上面我們原住民朋友大家都很有爭議的這個三億原住民跟平地原住民又把這樣的制度我們又把它擬定在新的立法上面在這個憲法判決之後擬在新的憲法上的法令裡面我覺得那是會置私益焚啦置私益焚這個是歧視啦再來就是說"},{"start":3923.574,"end":3939.932,"text":"這個我們這個我們原民會是獨立機關嗎?是原民會是獨立機關嗎?不是獨立機關行政院二級機關二級機關嘛獨立行政院獨立機關在法律裡面有規定吧在哪裡規定在哪裡?"},{"start":3945.101,"end":3967.479,"text":"中選會中選會是獨立機關我知道中選會NCC還有公平會公平交易委員會對那是獨立機關規定在哪裡?行政院組織法行政院組織法嘛所以原民會他不是獨立機關他不是獨立機關他不是獨立機關他現在說要讓主委任命主委必須經過同意必須行使同意權"},{"start":3971.644,"end":3994.663,"text":"行使同意權這個我們在這個國民黨成為多數之後他們把很多的職務都要求要行使同意權這個我們也大概摸著鼻子認了啦這個他們多數他們要這樣決定但是我第一次看到說中央行政院的二級機關的人士必須經由縣市議員跟區長的同意"},{"start":3997.737,"end":4022.269,"text":"這個副主委我們現在目前有沒有其他的機關單位的同意權是這樣行使的目前沒有那依憲法這個同意權中央機關的這個委員的同意權由地方民意代表來同意這個在法理上我比較才疏學淺是不是請副主委跟我說明一下這目前沒有這樣的相關規定"},{"start":4023.413,"end":4046.885,"text":"所以這個我就真的是有一點覺得說我們都會支持基本上原住民所提出來的這些案子我們基於長期以來原住民他們的處境在少數的這樣的處境我們都相當的同情但是這個在立法上面我覺得最基本的憲法不要說都說到憲法最基本的法理"},{"start":4047.685,"end":4062.723,"text":"要符合,不符合的話我們真的是作為立法委員很難,這個法我很難說舉手說我同意這樣子讓行政院的這個人事同意權由地方民意代表來施行,這個我是覺得"},{"start":4063.464,"end":4080.55,"text":"很有問題啦齁再加上齁我們主委現在手上有沒有資料我們現在目前的這個他在案子所提的這個各縣市議員具有原住民身份的議員目前他的族裔的分配是怎麼樣有沒有資料目前大概各組都有但是只有三個組沒有有人數啦人數一組一組講人數"},{"start":4092.691,"end":4094.953,"text":"各族人數還在統計中還在統計還在統計你們全國的縣市議員總共有101位我知道總共有101位啦他的族裔分配怎麼樣到現在還在統計"},{"start":4121.26,"end":4137.274,"text":"你們這個實在是齁我實在是不知從何說起了齁再來最後齁就改他們這個我看兩個委員版本都有齁將我們現在原民會的委員改為無給職啦那我就覺得我就很好奇這個應該是"},{"start":4140.111,"end":4148.222,"text":"是這個正面的立法我趕快看一下他們的立法理由在立法理由我都看不出有什麼立法理由啊為什麼要把目前的按照聽證條例的為什麼要改成無極值剛才說明我也沒有聽到這個提案委員的說明啊"},{"start":4155.578,"end":4156.018,"text":"接下來我們請張宏祿委員進行詢問。"},{"start":4191.328,"end":4216.118,"text":"請副主委麻煩副主委副主委人民會主委算不算政務官算算算不算政務官主委是政務官如果以今天的修法那他有任期的保障你認為合理嗎"},{"start":4217.523,"end":4245.977,"text":"政務官有任期的保障目前來講政務官應該是你回答我應該沒有任期的保障政務官不應該有任期的保障是目前是沒有對不對對啊阿如果今天的修法政務官這個委員會組委並沒有任期的保障你支持嗎我覺得這個部分因為比較沒有這樣的規定一般政務官是隨著同進退的"},{"start":4247.216,"end":4247.636,"text":"國務大臣"},{"start":4270.427,"end":4284.581,"text":"對不對?你如果對我們原住民做得不好,大家所有的原住民都會認為他不好,他反而有任期保障之後那怎麼辦?那怎麼辦?他就在那邊4年什麼事都不用做也可以4年"},{"start":4286.838,"end":4309.435,"text":"會不會變這樣?有可能他是掌管全國全台灣原住民的事務再來我要請教一下今天的修法內容還要縣市議會的議員鄉鎮市長區長同意你認為合理嗎?這個部分因為這是行政院應該要對立法院負責所以它是行政議題"},{"start":4311.255,"end":4332.159,"text":"所以應該這個部會的首長是院長提醒總統任命所以這個部分還要經過縣司院比較特別不是啊你認為合理嗎目前沒有這樣的規定當然沒有這樣的規定啊你認為合理嗎你認為合理嗎你來到這邊的你來這邊備詢不應該只有校欸你認為合理嗎"},{"start":4341.612,"end":4359.624,"text":"我問你合不合理?合不合理?我要告訴你不合理的地方在哪裡?副主委,對原住民族的業務你應該非常的了解吧?很了解齁?還差不多齁"},{"start":4362.042,"end":4385.143,"text":"好 我想請問一下你都不要看我們現在是16組對不對是你可以每一組都說出他的可以好 你說台灣組、盧凱族、阿美族、北南族、賽德克族、泰魯格族、亞美族、拉魯瓦族、甘迺甘迺夫族、邵族、周族、杜魯谷、還有達烏族"},{"start":4387.501,"end":4411.456,"text":"還沒16個啊?對,已經是13個了。還沒16個啊?賽下族、伽馬蘭族。我跟你講啦,副主委。你都說你很...我今天不是故意要給你考試。是。但我覺得這個非常重要。你所有全國的原住民裡面"},{"start":4413.171,"end":4438.509,"text":"有多少的縣市議員他有每個族群都代表到嗎?有每個族群都有縣市議員的代表嗎?目前我們看到大概有三個組沒有任何的沒有任何的縣市議員才三個而已嗎?對有三個組才三個我認為你要說清楚喔你今天在這邊講的齁要負責任喔才三個沒有嗎?縣市議員我現在說縣市議員喔是"},{"start":4444.352,"end":4466.378,"text":"才三個嗎?你是不是手頭上面有這個資料?我裡面的資料是各縣市政府縣市議員之下市的名額而已你有名額嗎?但是族群還沒有那你沒有族群嗎?所以你跟我講三個你看你自己都蠻心虛的我只問你縣市議員對不對?"},{"start":4468.749,"end":4495.086,"text":"然後鄉鎮市長或區長他當然他這個特別區如果這裡是阿美族的地區他當然選的大概就是阿美族人數多嘛對不對所以問題來了如果說照今天的修法內容然後呢要所有的縣市議員鄉鎮市長區長去同意你認為比較少數的原住民族他有投票的權利嗎"},{"start":4496.84,"end":4520.412,"text":"沒有機會投票沒有機會投票嘛對不對那沒有機會投票我們原住民族委員會的組委他是不是應該要照顧所有的原住民連他人數特別少的我們是不是要特別照顧他是這是原民會的責任阿對啊阿如果今天修法改成這樣的話我比較少的原住民族我連"},{"start":4521.753,"end":4523.094,"text":"有可能有可能嘛"},{"start":4549.537,"end":4575.933,"text":"我覺得這個不對啦我們要照顧所有的原住民啦原住民族每個人我們都要照顧到啦不管他人數多或少啦而且未來有可能會有新的組出現啊所以副主委在修這個法我們不是說不照顧原住民但是我現在問你的問題就凸顯出他的問題所在了會有很多的少數的原住民族"},{"start":4576.613,"end":4576.833,"text":"李博弈委員發言"},{"start":4616.384,"end":4638.832,"text":"來謝謝我們請副主委麻煩副主委委員好紅路委員講的就是一個接續如果這個修法過的問題先請教這個主委副主委主委是誰任命院長提請總統任命對"},{"start":4640.902,"end":4664.642,"text":"那台灣目前的這個政治體制他是由總統任命行政院長由行政院長組閣那在組成各部會包含原委會那原住民委員會裡面當然是委員制那也包含其他部會裡面包含有工程會是委員制國發會是委員制等等那如果再加入一個"},{"start":4666.365,"end":4694.967,"text":"任命之後要經過100個由六都以及縣市政府的議員以及民選區長行使同意權的話再加上任期制第一個對於行政院長任命的這個權利他就加上了一個同意權那這個行政院長現在目前台灣的憲政體制對於院長也沒有同意權"},{"start":4696.165,"end":4722.207,"text":"你對於原委會的主委加上同意權這個是對於憲政體制非常奇怪的地方加上剛剛講的你再回答我一次這一百個可能要行使同意權的這一些代表們有沒有代表到目前16組所有的聲音有沒有應該沒有辦法完全沒有辦法完全嘛"},{"start":4723.448,"end":4752.39,"text":"所以行政院長任命的委員會主委他的責任他的使命他必須要照顧到所有原民朋友的權益也就是說16族的權益他都必須要照顧到而且他必須負政治責任不是有任期保障的是不是所以你立場要堅定啊剛剛洪路遠問你那麼多次你回答不出來基於對於16族所有族人的權益的保障"},{"start":4753.393,"end":4778.622,"text":"立場要堅定阿是你相不相信你的組委會照顧到所有族人16族相信目前對嘛如果經由這一百位呃代表來行使同意權的話不出所料齁我你回答不出來有哪一族現在沒有代表那你回答的出來哪兩族代表會最多嗎"},{"start":4780.371,"end":4806.75,"text":"人口數最多的大概代表會比較多人口數最多來我請教你一下現在人口數最多的阿美族、排灣族、泰雅族前三名阿美、排灣、泰雅那所以代表有可能喔你是一百個是不敢回答出來還是怎樣趕快查出來跟委員會報告到底這三族佔的一百個比例有多少會不會這一個同意權以後"},{"start":4808.061,"end":4817.236,"text":"會造成其他15族以上的族人權益可能不被重視。這個是我們必須要先提出來的問題。"},{"start":4820.236,"end":4845.899,"text":"另外一個政委的問題我想其實所有的部會那在行政院裡面大家買大啦一樣大那所以說我相信原住民族委員會所提出來對於原住民族的朋友的權益在行政院會裡面要做相關的這些討論的話沒有說原民會比較小你自己在行政院會有參加過舉手會舉不起來嗎?"},{"start":4847.338,"end":4865.105,"text":"所以這兩個修法是兩套不一樣的邏輯一個同意權另外一個政委政委其實就是某一個總統候選人他在競選總統的時候講說這個原住民的主委以後要兼任政委他不懂嘛"},{"start":4866.257,"end":4883.573,"text":"但是這一個同意權是另外一個要凌駕目前台灣的政治憲政體制的一個制度他甚至比內閣制還要大喔內閣制你要擔任這個部會你先選上委員這一個同意權他是"},{"start":4888.939,"end":4914.159,"text":"比部會還要大萬一如同剛剛講的如果這個組委下台了請問下一個組委誰提名是要來問這一百位代表會不會同意這個人選還是說行政院長來提名這一百位再加上他不同意的這個邏輯我覺得這個政治體制必須要很嚴肅的來討論第二個第三個"},{"start":4918.157,"end":4920.761,"text":"目前有多少委員?"},{"start":4925.287,"end":4953.77,"text":"祖群委員16位祖群委員祖群委員16位16組都有是不是所以祖群委員16位裡面都有聘任的關係對對對所以有諮詢那如果沒有諮詢的話這16個執行委員是不是會造成有什麼樣的問題我們認為他們是我們最重要的部落跟園民會之間重要的溝通橋樑而且他們也分派很多各種不同的任務"},{"start":4954.411,"end":4954.751,"text":"好,謝謝李委員"},{"start":4984.334,"end":4984.734,"text":"副主委"},{"start":5005.117,"end":5032,"text":"好副主委好今天其實修這個圓明會的組織法我想了一下他其實是一個非常重要的人事制度設計的完整的變革那我認為說這個只要涉及到人事制度的設計他應該是要有一個目的所在就是無論是他希望可以更民主或者說他的這個修正的邏輯是要符合更符合目前台灣的一些現狀的"},{"start":5033.221,"end":5058.268,"text":"這其實背後都要有他的精神所在那我想當然還是先請教一下啦因為現在這個他們決定說這個主委的人事同意權要修正的版本是不是有涉及憲法的問題是 這涉及到憲法第56條各部份的首長必須要院長提請總統任命所以這個部份就跟憲法相違背"},{"start":5059.477,"end":5076.932,"text":"是的,那當然在這個憲法56條裡面寫得非常明確嘛新政院長提請總統來任命目前我們的這些部會首長那其實誓字613號是不是也有強調可不可以告訴我們誓字613號裡面的重點是什麼"},{"start":5077.739,"end":5104.537,"text":"好,四字六一三號最主要是源於憲法第五十三條所揭示的行政一體這樣的一個說法。它的意思在使所有的行政院的掌理行政事務因為受到行政院院長的指揮監督,而得經由行政院對立法院負責的一個途徑,所以落實對人民負責憲法的要求。這是四字憲至六一三號的解釋,也就是說"},{"start":5106.338,"end":5113.926,"text":"所長的任命必須經原住民議員相正式這樣的一個同意,恐怕跟4至613號還有憲法53條是相違背的。"},{"start":5117.301,"end":5138.481,"text":"好 謝謝副主委的說明其實這個是字613號寫得很清楚啦就是行政院長他要來如何的提請然後任命他的部會首長總統如何任命這個都是這個在字613號裡面提到非常重要的精神也就是說今天這個版本下去如果改成各縣市的原住民族的議員來開一個審查會同意"},{"start":5142.564,"end":5169.804,"text":"會不會跟目前這個憲法跟4613有非常大的漢格我相信這個是等一下如果真的要進到主條討論第一個要先解決的問題啦那再來其實剛剛大家都有提到了這個我也非常的好奇喔因為其實在原住民族共16組裡面我們原民會的用意就是要16組與陸軍沾越少數越應該要保障它這個是原民會存在的精神與意義嗎是"},{"start":5170.805,"end":5196.87,"text":"那現在如果照這個版本下去改成由各縣市議員他們來審查會同意會不會反而變成說你人數越多的族群越容易取得這個代表的席次越容易取得這個發言的權利也就是說最後可能會壟斷於某一些特定的族群手上反而是他來代表所有的原住民族會不會造成這樣的結果"},{"start":5197.935,"end":5201.628,"text":"如果以投票數還有人口這樣的分布,大家會有這樣的一個趨勢?"},{"start":5203.16,"end":5229.885,"text":"是啦 這個就是剛剛非常多的委員在詢問說現在你們統計全台灣的你剛剛說多少人101位總共101人如果未來我們的圓明會的主委是要由這101人來決定那請問這101人裡面的族裔的比例是多少這個就變得非常重要對吧是那你可不可以告訴我那目前至少前面前三大"},{"start":5231.186,"end":5237.034,"text":"人數的比例大概是多少?像阿美族大概20萬出頭那排灣族10萬出頭"},{"start":5241.212,"end":5242.292,"text":"阿美族、台灣族、泰雅族"},{"start":5265.535,"end":5286.301,"text":"是的 這個就是我們擔心的所以剛剛有這麼多委員在講就是說我們要重新調整這個人事制度可以來討論可以檢討都沒有問題但第一個不可以跟憲法的精神相違背第二個不能說越改越不公平越改越不民主越改越沒有照顧到少數的族群"},{"start":5287.021,"end":5302.12,"text":"這個是我擔心的所以如果接下來我們要進行任何的人事的討論都應該要在這樣的原則跟精神之下所以剛剛其實大家最擔心的就是說好如果我們現在照這個模式"},{"start":5302.58,"end":5303.02,"text":"委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":5323.86,"end":5338.59,"text":"要負責的對象是誰其實會變得越來越不明確這個是我們真的會擔心那最後我再請教一個剛剛有提到說啊說有一個版本裡面是說可以保障政務官的任期代表4年是 裡面條文有這樣的事副主委您認同嗎目前的政務官應該隨時都有"},{"start":5350.042,"end":5369.327,"text":"這個就是政務官的基本的責任嘛。您也知道嘛。作為政務官他就是要有自己有責任政治的心理準備。他坐在這個位置上就是要來負責任。他不可以說就算我做的再爛我都有四年的任期保障。這樣對人民公平嗎?那這樣他有辦法對他的工作好好負責嗎?對不對?"},{"start":5371.403,"end":5393.741,"text":"所以這個條文修下去真的是問題非常大所以我也希望大家等一下在逐條討論的時候真的要審慎這些條文修下去的意義為何真的有對我們人民比較好對台灣的民主更好嗎所以我是今天在這邊提出以上的疑問也希望我們人民會要做好充足的準備提出一個更公平的制度來應對好嗎是 謝謝好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員"},{"start":5400.107,"end":5425.514,"text":"接下來我們請陳俊宇委員發言好謝謝主席我們請總副主委麻煩副主委副主委早委員好"},{"start":5427.123,"end":5447.265,"text":"針對我們今天所要審查的這個原住民族委員會的組織法那我想說針對這個部分第一點就叫我們副主委這個干預主委的人選有違這個責任政治您認同嗎因為目前"},{"start":5449.154,"end":5473.902,"text":"這種體制在原民會成立以來到現在都執行得很順暢是所以我們在不同政黨的情況下我們的運作其實憲法第56條也明文規定那行政院各部會的首長應該是由院長來提請總統任命之那基於這個行政議題這個責任政治行政院也要為其所屬的這個機關施政的表現來負責所以應該這個"},{"start":5476.704,"end":5483.874,"text":"主委的這個任命,我想還是要回歸由院長來提名,應該是比較適當,您認同嗎?是,要适才適用。"},{"start":5489.137,"end":5514.059,"text":"第二點就是說對於這個主委要兼任政委的部分那如果說是有助於這個我們院內的一個橫向溝通我覺得應該還要納入一個部分就是說其他的這個不同族群的這個相關的這個委員會你包括客家委員會還有其他甚至未來還有外配等等的"},{"start":5514.699,"end":5536.985,"text":"那這個他們所觸及的這個橫向溝通的應該也都是可能跟我們今天談的有點類似所以其實如果說這個原民會主委要兼任政委的話我覺得這個人選應該要納入剛剛我講的這個部分這個人選應該是比較適合來這個兼任政委這是第二點那第三點"},{"start":5538.7,"end":5567.366,"text":"我們原民會這個16位的委員是否要擠薪的部分我認為說因為在原民會的這個工作上原民會的工作上他有可能要上山下海那也要跨鄉鎮來做服務那你如果今天你如果沒有擠薪的話我們把它變成是無擠職會不會對於我們的好人才這個難尋覓有沒有可能"},{"start":5568.146,"end":5568.326,"text":"委員會應該要堅持"},{"start":5584.341,"end":5600.953,"text":"那所以我想說這個各部會在政務上的人士應該還是要依法給行政院長用人的這個彈性因為畢竟行政團隊是一體的政策的推動也是需要經過通盤的考量來進行那這部分也請原民會"},{"start":5601.857,"end":5602.458,"text":"議員高金素梅等16人擬具"},{"start":5619.188,"end":5642.423,"text":"我們宜蘭縣有兩個原鄉一個在大同一個在南澳那之前在南澳有一個壁後溫泉他現在已經成為一個熱門的旅遊景點那當時他要落成啟用的時候也是副主委您去現場是參與出席的那我現在我發現到另外一個點是在大同鄉"},{"start":5643.624,"end":5664.751,"text":"大同鄉有一個閒置27年的一個派出所當時他是私人派出所那也被網友把他另外取了一個這個名字叫做這個寂寞派出所他已經廢棄了那在那個地方常常我們媒體只要報導說下雪了"},{"start":5667.145,"end":5688.847,"text":"民眾一窩蜂往上跑的時候第一個觸及的點就是在這個思源崖口的地方在那邊賞雪了那也常常造成那邊的這個交通會非常的混亂甚至危停的狀況那因為那邊有閒置的空間我在這裡我想說建議副主委是不是可以研究看看把那個地方來活化"},{"start":5689.928,"end":5706.234,"text":"縣政府目前已經規劃的差不多了,只欠東風,我希望說我們園民會是不是可以臨門一腳來幫忙一下,來帶動地方的觀光,也讓我們園鄉的觀光有一次的再次的發展,有沒有可能?"},{"start":5706.434,"end":5732.356,"text":"好,各位報告,那這個部分是不是我們在找縣政府跟大同相公所去會刊,去瞭解一下這個情況來怎麼協助他們?好,因為他現在那個位置是在我們原住民的地區,那依據這個第21條,我們這個基本法第21條必須取得原住民族及部落同意或參與才能夠在周遭進行整頓,那因為"},{"start":5733.276,"end":5759.741,"text":"司園派出所及末派出所的周遭也都是一些可能跟原住民保留地或是國有財產署還有林務局的相關土地有關係。縣政府已經溝通的差不多了。我想說今天跟我們副主委就教希望能夠針對這個部分仿效我們之前南澳闢後溫泉的方式在大同鄉另外另辟一個新的旅遊新的景點。"},{"start":5760.501,"end":5760.881,"text":"一﹗一﹗一﹗"},{"start":5789.557,"end":5818.448,"text":"一個月的時間一個包括會刊會刊大概一個月之後我們這個報告出來好啦看能不能在今年的這個冬天之前我們把這個地方整理好了好不好因為現在夏天而已嘛那一個月內請我們委員會給我一份這個詳細的資料跟縣政府溝通之後甚至這個一個月內的計畫未來的計畫看能不能都整理出來如果一個月內有一些規劃或想法然後剛好也提出報告"},{"start":5819.148,"end":5831.637,"text":"趕好年底就可以因應這樣的一個下雪時間好那這部分再請我們原民會那個積極辦理是是好以上謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝陳委員那我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝昭偉啊有請我們原民會啊我們中副主委麻煩副主委"},{"start":5847.392,"end":5873.301,"text":"哇 莊委員好早 人事行政總署只有來的副處長而已是吧好來請請請謝謝我想副主委今天其實這兩個法案裡面也不是原民會的層級可以單獨來做決定我本來以為今天人事長會來"},{"start":5874.841,"end":5900.91,"text":"那可是我就跟我們原住民族有關係的我來就教了我們看到的是我們原住民族的一個委員會組織法裡面的一個規範原民會所制的這些委員跟整個國安會主委跟委員之間都是部長層級的這又不太一樣又不太一樣那你們對這個今天兩個版本"},{"start":5901.929,"end":5913.268,"text":"你的看法是怎麼樣?我對這個議題其實我比這個還更開放本席一直都主張原住民族其實他是可以自治的"},{"start":5914.431,"end":5936.266,"text":"我都這樣認為啊我都這樣認為啊那我為什麼說我比較開放的一個理由就是說比較開放的理由就是說這兩個條文裡面啊我也不認為說把它比如說又去兼任政委以後啊就可以來做解決了那你們現在原民會你們現在對這一個態度是如何我現在要聽聽我們"},{"start":5937.327,"end":5937.767,"text":"委員高金素梅"},{"start":5956.36,"end":5975.793,"text":"而且現在目前我們的族群委員,現在16位裡面有分兩梯,一個禮拜一半的人在會裡面,一半人在各區,就是做這樣的一個交流的工作推動。我正在問董事長,你怎麼跟他說他死去?"},{"start":5979.287,"end":5986.076,"text":"我再問你說你對這樣子今天委員會裡面提出這樣的一個法案你的看法啦其實我們認為"},{"start":5990.751,"end":6012.117,"text":"因為這次提案是希望無幾指但是我們認為還是希望能夠聘用的方式來禁用繼續負責他們來的工作這樣子好啦那我就提問一些你比較熟的啦我問的比較熟的啦你像比如說我們原民會的主委你認為說全國的議員原住民的一個議員或鄉鎮長來這樣做一個審查來行使這樣的一個同意權你的看法是如何"},{"start":6020.399,"end":6043.273,"text":"比如說你也可以認為從責任政治來看或者說整個人事權的一個行使方面到底對你們會有沒有什麼複雜會有什麼自然難省的一個地方或者你們甚至於跟現狀來做一個改變的話有什麼自然難省就是談到那個風險我想真正問你的看法"},{"start":6044.942,"end":6070.151,"text":"以目前這樣在28年來原民會這樣的運作還算順暢那如果現在按照這樣的提案希望由地方的縣市直轄市跟鄉鎮市區長的審查同意我覺得當然這個部分我們也不曉得要怎麼去調整而且這是在憲法裡面明定院長提名總統任命的一個權利而且他又是政務官"},{"start":6071.601,"end":6073.062,"text":"那你不覺得他們這樣的一個提案也很有創意嗎?但限制上是很難行"},{"start":6101.824,"end":6110.576,"text":"這就是你的看法?應該說我們不太確定他細節上面要如何操作。好,那個副組長你請回啊。"},{"start":6112.099,"end":6140.454,"text":"副主委我這樣倒是這樣子認為啦原住民族我們原民會甚至我們很多原民的一個委員他希望整個原民裡面自己有更大的一個自主的一個空間這個我們可以理解啦但是我的意思就是說你以現在的這樣的一個方式對於整個原住民族的一個自治來講的話是一個突破或者說是有一個是一個有一個有注意的"},{"start":6141.514,"end":6142.915,"text":"議員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":6166.124,"end":6166.965,"text":"但你們這個說法等於今天如果進"},{"start":6182.719,"end":6204.651,"text":"到這個條文要進入主條的話你們怎麼樣去做說明呢?好啦我繼續再來請教啦我記得你們主委上任受訪的時候也講說時間上的一個緊迫他所要的一個任務是要去回應憲法第111年憲判制第17號相關的一個工作推動平補足的一個證明那以現在來看的話"},{"start":6206.292,"end":6231.793,"text":"這個政策跟方向如果是繼續走的話就變成說未來除了山園跟平原以外會再多一個平埔原住民那本期在過去有質詢過前任的原民會主委跟內政部長還有中選會主委你多了一個平埔族的原民以後那個影響的層面非常大那最大的我相信"},{"start":6232.813,"end":6260.41,"text":"第一個大家想到的就是政治上層面的一個衝擊就是整個選舉制度那以現在來看的話我們憲法裡面所明定的就是只有三元跟平元的一個席次那你如果讓整個平埔族我們就變成說我們在多出一個平埔族的一個原住民出來以後按照憲法的一個指示那未來產生的衝擊你們籌備的部分你們現在方向是怎麼樣"},{"start":6261.28,"end":6288.726,"text":"我們現在也成立了一個工作小組那針對社裝法的部分我們也在諮詢討論那我們7月8月大概會有17場的一個徵詢會議然後他的權益呢?權益當然是會另一法律訂正那大概在諮詢會議的時候我們的草案有分甲板乙板不是我懂你的意思我的意思是從政治層面從選舉制度來看那你怎麼辦?"},{"start":6291.803,"end":6296.424,"text":"你真的以為是地方制度法?那他們怎麼選立委?"},{"start":6316.755,"end":6320.499,"text":"議員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11會議"},{"start":6337.042,"end":6337.622,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":6355.514,"end":6370.684,"text":"國民黨本身對修憲是沒有興趣的啦那我的意思是你從那個副主委你從原民的一個考量的觀點來做一個出發的話你該怎麼樣去保障這些即將恢復原住民族身份的評普組的權益我談的是這個我談的是這個因為當時在線視線裡面就提到"},{"start":6379.881,"end":6403.446,"text":"就平埔族的相關權利的保障是要考量各民族發展的歷史脈絡跟現況來斟酌國家的資源分配,我們會用另外一個法律來訂定。另外一個法律來訂定,所以你們都已經規劃好了?所以目前我們的草案裡面有分假案、疑案來做一個討論,來對我們現有的原住民跟平埔族群來做一個討論。"},{"start":6404.443,"end":6430.899,"text":"我去回到我們鄭天財政委員的提案他這個提案又有創意了他說未來行政院長提名原民會主委以後還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長來召開審查會才能夠同意第一個當然我們像我們所擔心的很怕會造成責任政治的一個混亂原民會是行政院轄下的一個部會跟行政院一同對立法院負責如果說"},{"start":6431.86,"end":6435.661,"text":"原民會的首長還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長同意以後才能夠認命那你認為這個到底是誰對誰負責的問題啦當然今天有人會舉例嘛那是不是警政署長要全國警察認命同意才能夠認命那體育署長要全國運動員同意才能認命不同的命題啦但對於原住民族自治這個部分我倒認為這樣的一個提案"},{"start":6458.226,"end":6483.473,"text":"反而範圍啊那個幅度還很小不夠破例但我問的是說會產生什麼樣的影響我看你覺得不要緊我們提到因為這個部分可能會對整個原住民族政策未來在執行上因為主委是總統院長提名總統任命他有一定的任期跟政務官的身份嘛但是又要經過"},{"start":6486.011,"end":6486.712,"text":"當然會有衝突啦一定會有衝突啦"},{"start":6498.493,"end":6524.223,"text":"責任政治來講的話誰任命誰要負最終極的一個責任但是如果你是地方的民代或者不管是議員或者是鄉鎮長他所低於他去認可他也許是自己的一個政治利益或者說地方上的一個利益跟整個市政也許會有衝突的地方跟原民會的職責也會有衝突的地方甚至到最後你都人選都不一定可以做一個產生"},{"start":6525.143,"end":6525.744,"text":"所以我看你們對於今天這樣的一個案子"},{"start":6537.79,"end":6538.19,"text":"謝謝中委員 下一位我們請中嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":6576.687,"end":6595.286,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關所長、官員、會長、觀眾夥伴、媒體記者女士先生,有請中副主委。主委好。主委好。主委,你是不是中華民國人民?是。我是不是中華民國人民?是。所以根據憲法第7條,"},{"start":6596.448,"end":6612.974,"text":"民國人民不分男女、宗教、種族、階級、黨派在法律上一律平等這意思說我跟你同不同種族我們同宗跟不同族那我們要沒有平等要平等所以我們根據憲法第17條我們都有平等參與選舉的權利對不對所以你會不會選總統"},{"start":6616.288,"end":6616.348,"text":"主席"},{"start":6635.303,"end":6662.566,"text":"現任的總統,這次總統大選你有投票嗎?有。我也有投票嘛。那不管我沒有投票支持這個同一個總統,現任的總統是我們國家的元首,也代表了你,也代表了我,你同不同意?是。那你有沒有這次參與立委的投票?有。有,我也參與立委投票嘛。我們選的是不同人,一定的啦。你不可能投我,我也不可能投原民的立委嘛。但是不管現在的立法委員,原民的立法委員,你有沒有投票給他,他都代表你對不對?"},{"start":6663.806,"end":6677.652,"text":"我當然投票投給我當然代表我自己啦齁好那請教一下目前大法官考試委員監察委員你有沒有投票給他沒有那他可不可以代表你跟我"},{"start":6680.439,"end":6708.066,"text":"因為他是由我們選出來的總統所提名的他們是由113位立法委員所組成的我們選出來的立委所同意任命的所以考委、監委跟大法官雖然我們沒有投票給他但他都代表了你跟我對不對那他有沒有平等的對待你跟我你確定嗎?考委有沒有原住民?有嗎?監委有沒有原住民?有原住民有幾族?那監委有16族的原住民都有嗎?"},{"start":6712.939,"end":6734.577,"text":"大法官有沒有原住民?那如果沒有原住民身份的大法官,雖然經過總統提名,全國民意基礎的立法院同意通過,他可以代表公平的對待不同的族群嗎?可不可以?所以目前政務委員當中有沒有,大法官有沒有規定一定要有一個大法官是原住民?"},{"start":6736.24,"end":6745.664,"text":"沒有那如果沒有規定大法官要有一個原住民這樣有沒有有違我們平等對待各個平等族的這個憲法保障第一條原則原理有沒有沒有嘛為什麼"},{"start":6747.932,"end":6773.95,"text":"因為不管有沒有保障大法官是不是具有原住民身份大法官繼經全民選出來的總統提名繼經全民選出來的國會立法委員由你的一票和我的一票的委員來同意任命他就要根據憲法第7條公平的對待不分種族的每一個國民是不是這樣來我們來談政體這只是很清楚的一個憲法ABC我們來談一下環境保育與民生利用並行補償淨法並"},{"start":6777.014,"end":6806.198,"text":"鼓勵永續經營我們來看一下來目前我們全國的原保地有26萬6千公頃對不對對其中林業用地佔了6成6是不是是那目前只有林保地會被納入淨法區域可以領取淨法補償是不是這樣是這當中屏東縣是不是最多對屏東縣最多所以我要問那個定義題目好來我們往下看目前列為淨法區的有9種是不是有這些林業用地水保用地水質保護區國家公園性質一不一樣"},{"start":6807.585,"end":6807.785,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6832.625,"end":6852.685,"text":"如果說我保持原貌進法公告之後呢有兩種一種是我做照領或其他用途你們是不是根據判斷有沒有濫墾濫罰是有根據竹木的覆蓋率有七成以上就算是可以符合資格是不是這樣是只要符合補償要件就算是有做其他的使用符合規定也可以領取補償是不是這樣是"},{"start":6853.926,"end":6875.142,"text":"所以目前的應許進法補償不是叫你什麼都不能動只是要你合乎規定來使用是不是好我們現在看好目前的申請補償面具有沒有逐年增加有有從2.4萬公頃到去年到7.2萬公頃了到了2024年我們估計有7.7萬請問新核定補償的土地通常有沒有做使用有沒有做使用他只是進法而已他有沒有做其他的使用你們有沒有去考究"},{"start":6884.369,"end":6905.082,"text":"新核定的這些補償的原保地上的林業用地有沒有做使用?我所知道多數沒有做使用,它就是保持原狀,是不是這樣?所以你們目前所合法的禁法補助,絕大多數都是保持原狀,是不是?但是法律有沒有規定他們底下不可以使用?沒有嗎?"},{"start":6906.395,"end":6913.197,"text":"現在目前我們在屬於原保地的林地當中有AB兩種方案一種是農業部林保署的造林獎勵有沒有你們知道嗎他們的造林獎勵可不可以去補助可不可以去使用"},{"start":6936.561,"end":6937.741,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":6964.551,"end":6981.631,"text":"林保署的跟我們原民會的可以同時申請嗎?不可以A或B是互斥的那如果還有一個C的方案他符合我們進化補助覆蓋率7成的規定但是他做部分的使用可不可以同時來兼領如果有個C方案"},{"start":6983.223,"end":7011.63,"text":"如果在合法使用...合乎規定使用法案,你們是同意的,好。所以你來看,A方案的話呢,個人投入呢,要投入很多。他個人有一定的收益,環境的收益也不錯,環境就是維持他的狀況。我們的方案B就是進發補償,個人不用去投入任何的利用跟開發。但是呢,個人有一定的收益,環境也得到一些些的保障,是不是這樣?但是如果我們加一個C方案,我們比照他,他個人投入一些"},{"start":7013.371,"end":7037.092,"text":"開發運用,符合規定的開發運用,他個人可以得到收益,環境也得到很大的再利用,你覺得有沒有可能?這個利用叫什麼?我來給你看答案,這個利用叫零下經濟。其實零下經濟可以維持現在林地的一個現有狀況,可是在滿足覆蓋率7成的情況之下,它可以又包括零下做一些開發利用以利民生。目前有沒有例子?"},{"start":7038.477,"end":7056.454,"text":"委員會有沒有這樣的例子?有來告訴你有哪些以前我諮詢過下一頁一個叫做什麼就是蜜蜂蜂蜜對不對我們養蜜蜂蜂蜜有高山茶為什麼蜂蜜跟高山茶是互利的因為有的蜂蜜他會帶來授粉往下看一種叫做無遮蜂聽過無遮蜂嗎"},{"start":7058.362,"end":7084.648,"text":"有沒有聽過吳哲鋒?就是沒有尾針的刺的。吳哲鋒在我們原住民的文化當中非常重要。他有非常多的應用用途,包括他的黏著,包括他的防水,都跟我們打獵有關。副主委你有沒有下去打過獵?有沒有拉過弓?有拉過弓,沒有打過獵。沒有打過獵,我也跟你一樣啦,我們都通信中。所以呢,再往下一頁。所以呢,同樣的道理,我們鄒族也有這樣的一個屋簷下的蜂窩,來幫助他們家裡可以開墾的"},{"start":7087.133,"end":7114.262,"text":"委員蔡普受諷最後我的訴求來往上一跳來上一頁現在你們是不是有一個111年到114年的原住民族的組織方案有 有這個部分有沒有一個古道遺址之外還有生態跟環境調查的維護計畫 有有沒有可以培育我們的原住民同胞他可以在維護自然生態的環境之下同時做一些經濟的開發利用 有沒有 有在各鄉鎮大概有十位左右 那目前成效如何"},{"start":7115.805,"end":7142.834,"text":"目前自然保育是有一些對環境的改善對環境的改善所以我要一個結論這個結論就是這個主張請原民會會同行政院各其他主管機關譬如說像農業部提出一個中產層的社會發展計畫他的目的就是針對目前有領取禁法補償或是符合領取禁法補償的原保地上的林業用地我們鼓勵原住民朋友"},{"start":7143.354,"end":7154.434,"text":"投入做符合規定的開發運用,你同意嗎?好,我們努力來嚴寧有嗎?有在嚴寧了喔?那我們希望說回到上面那個圖,就那個ABC方案的圖"},{"start":7155.683,"end":7175.513,"text":"如果說你們可以研議出這樣的西方案我相信未來我們原住民的朋友有原保地的朋友他在既有的林業用地上不是單純的受到的金髮的限制完全不能夠去使用只能說就是領取政府有限的金髮補償我們希望你們也鼓勵他投入類似林下經濟當下"},{"start":7177.114,"end":7206.099,"text":"在合乎禁法補償的使用範圍內做必要的合理的經濟開發運用,你同意嗎?同意,因為主委前幾天也有提到這個部分的...你們已經開始著手了,已經在有計劃運量了就開始去做...在執行了,我希望未來在你們下年度的計劃當中看到你們有C方案的提出來幫助原來領用B方案的原住民朋友可以因為他們的投入,他們對生態的服務他們可以領得更多的獎勵跟補助,好不好?"},{"start":7206.459,"end":7210.902,"text":"主席,我們請原民會中副主委跟原市行政總署曾永芳專委"},{"start":7234.266,"end":7239.571,"text":"有副處長要找副處長嗎?麻煩滿副處長"},{"start":7252.89,"end":7274.215,"text":"副主委還有副處長我先請教一下副處長根據行政院組織法第五條第二項規定政務委員得兼任下設委員會之主任委員而第四條規定行政院設立的委員會有包含原住民委員會因此原住民委員會的主任委員應該是可以兼任行政院的政務委員"},{"start":7274.975,"end":7290.288,"text":"也沒有違反行政院組織法的規定那執政黨的原住民立委曾經主張原民會的業務橫跨的各部會應該讓主任委員兼任政務委員為何你們一直都沒有讓原民會的主委兼任政務委員"},{"start":7291.577,"end":7319.691,"text":"那跟委員報告因為依照中央行政機關組織基準法的第18條第三項有提到機關首長除了他法律有特別的規定之外原則上是用專任的方式來處理所以說我們原則上因為這個原民會的業務是橫跨了各部會但因為他本身就是委員會性質是負責整合協調各部會的業務所以我們還是維持讓他用委員會而且專任的方式"},{"start":7321.443,"end":7346.325,"text":"國發會跟國家科學及技術委員會的主委有沒有兼任政務委員當時的考量是因為國發會跟這個國科會他們本身在相關的國家的施政的計畫科研計畫的審議方面有比較多資源分配的權限所以當時是在國發會的組織法是在立法院審議的過程是由委員建議把它改為由政務委員來兼任的"},{"start":7346.533,"end":7357.758,"text":"那所以說只要有委員建議可以改為這個政務委員兼任也是可以了是這樣的意思嗎?我們是建議就是說因為他現行之下其實已經有相關跨部會協調的功能了"},{"start":7358.666,"end":7386.861,"text":"但是因為沒有事實上他沒有真正跨部會寫到的公文我為什麼會提到這個當然也是今天條文的部分要修正的部分主要是因為賴總統有他的主張是要證明平埔族這我想上次這個主委新任的主委也特別提到那因為平埔族的這個證明涉及的議題非常的龐大而且所需要的預算可能也會超過幾百億可能影響的族群也超過100萬人"},{"start":7388.542,"end":7414.158,"text":"那這樣子是不是也需要跨部會去整合包括說如果追溯到平埔族的這個血緣的話臺灣可能有600萬人是平埔族然後還有很多的土地要面臨重新管理那如果平埔族都比照原住民55歲退休勞保基金的缺口也會變大所以整個國土的規劃都要重來所以請問這樣子還算不算是這個跨部會而且需要涉及重大計畫的審查"},{"start":7415.821,"end":7437.902,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告齁因為事實上我們行政院已經有成立一個叫原住民族基本法的推動會是由行政院的院長來擔任召集人所以關於剛剛委員提到這個重大的議題事實上是可以提到這個委員會來做相關的一個討論跟審議我想這可能跟我們的原住民委員會的主任委員能不能兼任政務委員我覺得應該也沒有直接的關係啦"},{"start":7438.703,"end":7438.843,"text":"中副主委"},{"start":7454.241,"end":7474.358,"text":"原民會有一個標案是113年度補助原住民族長者裝置假牙業務的宣導文宣費預算的經費是199萬元那為什麼會有這個宣導品是因為112年度原住民的長者裝設假牙的補助總共1936案補助金額是3666"},{"start":7478.382,"end":7495.274,"text":"六十三萬元那原民會認為從數據上來看喔原住民長者申請的補助人數太少所以要做宣傳那請問一下副主委那個原住民長者的牙齒都不好嗎要不然為什麼認為這樣算是少而且是因為宣傳不夠"},{"start":7497.162,"end":7507.601,"text":"其實很多老人家的牙齒的確到一定的年齡大概都會鬆動而且吃食物進食會比較困難對 那是根據什麼樣子的理由你認為說這個是因為宣傳不夠呢"},{"start":7510.265,"end":7510.445,"text":"委員高金素梅"},{"start":7530.106,"end":7557.95,"text":"以貼紙的話可以張貼在66處的原住民族的家庭服務中心22縣市政府510處的文化健康站全國的村里長辦公室牙醫診所那會需要裝假牙的人會去找牙醫需要申請補助的會去找里長家人也會上網查資訊為什麼需要花199萬去製作USB風扇跟USB LED燈進行宣導呢?各位報告這個可能也是鼓勵"},{"start":7559.042,"end":7561.304,"text":"請問有幾個長者會用USB充電?"},{"start":7582.614,"end":7601.401,"text":"所以這樣子的一個宣導品我覺得根本就沒有好一大使用性是浪費公帑我在內政委員會的時候我也曾經質詢過前任的這個主委他花了145萬要去做他的個人的一個紀念冊我已經覺得是非常的浪費公帑浪費我們納稅人的錢"},{"start":7604.022,"end":7616.292,"text":"那我記得在這個行政院卓院長在院會也一直強調原民會的預算很吃緊但是以這個標案來說其實也是非常嚴重的在浪費人民這個納稅的錢副主委請您回答"},{"start":7622.2,"end":7650.793,"text":"委員這個部分我們再來瞭解看因為的確老人家是比較很少用USB啦都是年輕人比較多所以說你花了199萬元去做老人家根本不會用到的宣導品就是浪費公帑就是浪費納稅人義務的納稅錢可能也是給老人家或者是讓家裡能夠一起做這樣的一個宣導199萬元既然原民會的預算是很吃緊的我覺得每一分錢都該花在刀口上好嗎好也謝謝委員提醒謝謝"},{"start":7652.839,"end":7654.36,"text":"無中縣委員發言麻煩副主委"},{"start":7684.289,"end":7685.109,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":7704.454,"end":7728.086,"text":"他都是從事勞力密集的工作而且他的收入其實是偏低的每人每月平均薪資現在我們來看大概是34,244塊跟其他的國人相比他其實是少了9,037塊那其實未滿3萬元的比例還有高達三成多所以我們從這個數據上面來看我就覺得"},{"start":7730.247,"end":7731.148,"text":"委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":7747.332,"end":7747.672,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":7769.264,"end":7789.499,"text":"一百一十二年這個數據比應該這麼說啦就是說失業率一年只少了零點二九就從一一跟一二這樣來比的話那一年只少零點二九這個進步的速度是不是不太好零點二九算是"},{"start":7791.297,"end":7820.137,"text":"跟委員說明因為失業率的下降呢其實從早期的98年呢8%左右已經有逐年下降那今年其實都維持到不到1%是有透過我們的強化促進原住民就業方案跟各部會的合作來去促進原住民的就業權益以上說明那你們有沒有去分析一下他們找不到工作的原因大概是哪些有些是生活圈沒有工作機會或是就業的資訊不夠掌握還有跟生活技能跟工作的技能有關係"},{"start":7822.032,"end":7842.868,"text":"我這邊有看了一份112年原住民就業狀況調查年度報告111年的勞動力參與率跟失業率是62.75跟3.82也就是說我們從這個資料上面來看有65.31的人他是在工作中沒有遇到工作機會"},{"start":7844.77,"end":7852.488,"text":"當然這裡面有很多種不同的細項的分別其中有30.42他是找不到他要做的職業類別"},{"start":7855.086,"end":7880.552,"text":"有沒有去稍微了解一下這個狀況是什麼?是不是專業度不夠或是什麼?有沒有了解?是,跟委員說明這除了就是有工作技能不足之外我們有透過職業訓練那當然也會有分原鄉跟都會那不同的地區確實有不同的工作機會那以原鄉而言來說本來產業發展就比較有限所以我們會有推動一些在地的觀光政策那這個部分也會加強推動"},{"start":7881.451,"end":7909.377,"text":"按照剛剛說的如果說有六成的這個失業者在找工作的過程中他完全沒有遇到這個可以或適合的工作機會那我想請教一下那這個是不是這樣主委這個部分就問主委主委請問一下這個會不會是代表有一些公司他會拒絕那個入取原住民甚至說連面試的機會也不給啊你們有沒有研究過我們這方面的原因"},{"start":7910.197,"end":7911.278,"text":"我們還是要去分析他們找不到工作的原因"},{"start":7938.496,"end":7956.729,"text":"當然說會不會有一些公司他本來就是對原住民有歧視而拒絕去面試他這也要麻煩你們了解一下那如果我們發現沒有工作的原因主要是因為技能或什麼不足的話我想這個國家就有辦法去介入介入一下就提供給他們一些"},{"start":7957.889,"end":7960.391,"text":"有關這個部分我們是不是也跟勞政單位去了解一下這個情況?"},{"start":7977.163,"end":7997.576,"text":"麻煩要知道問題才能夠解決問題這部分再麻煩你們另外我還想請當然我知道政府有做很多就像企業要標政府標案的時候他會要求企業要有一定的人住民比例如果沒有的話要繳納貸金這個政府都有在做也是薪資多年的一個制度我想請問一下企業繳納貸金現在狀況普不普遍繳納貸金"},{"start":8005.772,"end":8032.866,"text":"委員說明大概未足額的廠商大概平均每年有500到600家左右比例呢?比例這個部分的話因為我們大概平均每年大概有2萬多的那個標案這個部分但是其實那個原住民的廠商超額經用的人數也有比例的上升那目前的這個貸金的這個部分的話還是維持大概2億到3億左右沒有我是說這可能要看一下比例啦就到底有多少公司他們只是寧願繳貸金也不用"},{"start":8034.77,"end":8034.81,"text":"主席"},{"start":8052.107,"end":8070.678,"text":"四至七一九號的理由書有提到原住民的聘用是屬於國家保障原住民發展的一環,但能夠提供多屬於短期或不具技術性的工作,難以增進原住民長期穩定的工作機會和專業技能。"},{"start":8074.195,"end":8074.796,"text":"我們對人才的賠利也會加強這個部分"},{"start":8099.618,"end":8118.763,"text":"還有就是說我們的立法院的法治局有提到一個報告就是政府提供很多臨時工作雖然是可以解決原住民的生計藍莓之急但是這不是長久的那個方法嘛因為這個反而會隱蔽了原住民的失業率他沒有辦法真實的反映現在原住民面臨的問題這一塊也要麻煩你們"},{"start":8121.404,"end":8122.465,"text":"最後我想說提一下"},{"start":8139.596,"end":8156.731,"text":"因為原住民他們就業其實有一個特殊的狀況就是早進晚出他就業反而是很密集在15到24歲或55歲以上所以你們要去了解一下15到24歲他們在進行職涯規劃的時候他到底需要的是什麼"},{"start":8157.432,"end":8157.652,"text":"議員高金素梅"},{"start":8177.814,"end":8178.355,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8199.436,"end":8225.632,"text":"改善原住民就業狀況或提高競爭力的配套措施。我想說你們應該有這些配套措施嗎?可不可以就是說這個相關的規劃還有書面能夠兩個月內給我讓我拜讀一下,好不好?是,是,謝謝,兩個月的時間。可以嗎?可以,可以。兩個月內再麻煩你們給我。剛剛委員所講的包括15到24歲甚至55歲以上這樣的勞參率我們也會了解一下他的情況"},{"start":8226.853,"end":8227.113,"text":"謝謝吳宗憲委員接下來我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":8258.943,"end":8277.044,"text":"請原民會跟人事行政總署好 請副主委各位好想先請教副主委是你贊成這個原民會的主委兼任政委嗎"},{"start":8279.043,"end":8306.901,"text":"這個部分我們是不是還是因為這涉及到行政院人事任用法規的解釋跟適用我們很在尊重人事總署的看法我現在不是問法規我只問有沒有這個需要你作為一個圓明會的副主委所以你的意思是其實無所謂見不見無所謂當然目前我們在推動整個圓明會的事務我們也有透過"},{"start":8307.842,"end":8331.497,"text":"我直接問你啦 兼任政委對你們原住民委員會來說的話推動事務當中是不是會更有著力一點一點是 是嘛 所以作為原住民委員會的副主委這件事情我覺得就要你原住民委員會的態度那現在我想請教一下我們人事總處請問一下反對的原因是什麼"},{"start":8333.102,"end":8333.903,"text":"我看了一下你們說啦,你們大概說"},{"start":8348.271,"end":8376.55,"text":"依照中央行政機關組織基準法嘛 對不對規定機關首長除應性質特殊法規定有規定者外應為專任嘛那現行行政院組織法第四條第五條規定行政院有九個委員會的主委可以兼任政委那其中國發會跟國科會因為具有跨部會整合功能原民會性質比較單一所以你們認為沒有兼任政委的必要性嘛 對不對"},{"start":8378.823,"end":8397.007,"text":"國發會跟國科會主要是針對各機關的計畫要進行相關的審議跟資源分配。這個部分也是委員在修法的時候爭列的。我現在請教一下副主委,你認同人事行政總署這個見解嗎?從業務端來看,我不講法規端。"},{"start":8401.731,"end":8429.471,"text":"我這樣問好了齁請問按照原住民組織法原住民你管的這個相關的原住民工作包括哪些項目包括教育文化社會福利工程建設土地社會福利非常多包括政策規劃地方基礎建設大概算是包羅萬象的確啊教育文化經濟觀光產業土地海域"},{"start":8430.738,"end":8448.812,"text":"幾乎啊 我直接說啦 原住民委員會所管的事項吼 真的叫包山包海啦 對不對你大概除了兩岸國防外交 兩岸都未必了 兩岸都還有關係喔 我大概想連國外交都還有點關係喔"},{"start":8450.387,"end":8478.095,"text":"我大概說國防 欸 國防好像也有點關係喔我要跟你講說他跨部會需要的工作恐怕是各個部會裡面最高的吧 是不是目前我們 所以我們常常有一些跨部會的一些協商機制對啊 可是他們認為說你們的跨部會的需求不像國科會或者是國發會那麼高啊所以你們是非常專一的單位啊 你認同人事行政總統這個見解嗎"},{"start":8482.305,"end":8501.893,"text":"我們還是尊重人事總署的我是從業務端啦他們從法制端我沒有要為難他們啦業務端你認同嗎因為現在在整個機制上我們運作是都有透過這樣的一個方式包括跟教育部我跟副主委講你是原民會的副主委"},{"start":8502.95,"end":8514.66,"text":"你今天爲了爭取原住民我們今天很多的一些不管是法規建制的優化不管是福利預算的爭取你要從原住民"},{"start":8516.138,"end":8532.708,"text":"我們的朋友的角度來去看我只講一個最簡單的事情嘛我就認為人事行政總督這個論點不成立阿我比你還敢幫原住民講話阿你覺得成立嗎?跨部會我還真找不出比原住民委員會更跨部會的一個單位啦有嗎?幾乎所有東西教育涉及誰?"},{"start":8538.854,"end":8558.987,"text":"教育設計哪個部會?原住民的教育設計哪個部會?教育文化處對啊我說教育設計哪個部會啊?其他部會啊?教育部啊今天經濟事務設計哪個部會?環境事務設計哪個部會?海洋事務設計哪個部會?原住民委員會才真的是一個化部會需求最高的單位啦"},{"start":8560.24,"end":8574.899,"text":"這個我也是希望我們的人事總處這件事情能夠把它納入考慮不是你們講的所謂的他的單一性我覺得原住民委員會並不單一他跨部會需求非常高我再舉個例子"},{"start":8576.341,"end":8592.055,"text":"請問我們的副主委是原住民族基本法在民國94年立法之後相關執法目前進度如何相關執法大概已經完成85%以上現在只剩下5個法還沒有原住民自治法進度怎麼樣"},{"start":8593.792,"end":8607.371,"text":"司法目前朝著分流立法的方式,那目前大概針對幾個族群,像太魯閣族跟盧凱族,有就這個族群的部分希望能夠請他們就有關自治的議題,然後再"},{"start":8610.213,"end":8635.363,"text":"非常好!原住民土地及海域法進度如何?已經有一些法案上次有送到立法院針對我們那原住民族生物多樣性條例法案進展如何?這個生物多樣性因為問題還比較多還必須要去做更多的討論更多的跨部會討論啦是是是你知道我要問什麼了吧?理解這些法制修改需不需要跨部會討論?"},{"start":8639.195,"end":8659.946,"text":"所以為什麼今天在這邊我們立法委員會願意支持說今天讓原住民主委也可以兼任政委因為政委先天的功能我在政府單位工作過啊政委的功能其實主要就是以他政委員的身份來進行跨部會的很多的協調統合工作嘛 對不對"},{"start":8661.26,"end":8688.167,"text":"那今天如果說我們的原住民的主委他也同時兼任政委的話我剛剛講這麼多不管是說今天業務端法規端其實你就會知道基本上他就有更好的一個我們講說在政府單位的一個職務基礎來去為原住民朋友來去爭取更優化的法案的跨部會的協調工作副主委你認不認同"},{"start":8689.721,"end":8690.021,"text":"主席中副主委"},{"start":8721.546,"end":8736.941,"text":"副主委我想今天針對我們組織法第三條第四條的修正我想主要有關於我們政委員提出說我們商地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任首長之任命"},{"start":8739.533,"end":8748.583,"text":"主委由三地原住民及平地原住民輪流擔任,另外由行政院長提名也要經過原住民身份的議員、區長及鄉鎮市長的審查同意。"},{"start":8754.537,"end":8767.852,"text":"那我看你的這個剛才對我們所有的很多的委員你的答詢你就講說這個依照憲法56條這各部會的首長是由行政院長提名請總統任命所以你是不贊成"},{"start":8775.541,"end":8789.298,"text":"主委請教你,你認為族委是不是要跟我們原民的所有的這些族或者部落要熟悉,而且要溝通無礙,一定要嗎?"},{"start":8793.283,"end":8793.443,"text":"主委主席"},{"start":8812,"end":8825.582,"text":"所以在這種前提之下如果族委純粹是由行政院長來提名然後總統任命但是這個族委跟所有的族人不熟悉的話你認為他的政務會推行得很順暢嗎?"},{"start":8830.052,"end":8855.635,"text":"當然如果不熟悉會不順暢不過以我們這28年來的經驗所有的被任命的事才事任的首長大概都跟主委很熟悉那個副主委這是你的看法啦我想我過去也在內政委員會待過你這樣在當主委的時候我想我的選區新竹縣有兩個原鄉部落那你說這個主委真的跟他們那麼熟嗎 沒有"},{"start":8856.536,"end":8875.252,"text":"沒有齁 那不管是跟議員也好並沒有你講的什麼很熟悉啦所以其實我想這一次的修法主要針對這一次的修法所以要經過不管是由這個三立原住民平立原住民輪流擔任主委我想這一條這個很公平啊這個你贊同嗎這一條的修法"},{"start":8880.265,"end":8881.906,"text":"主委,主委由輪流來擔任你認為這樣的修法,你贊不贊成?"},{"start":8896.172,"end":8910.505,"text":"你回答很簡單回答,贊不贊成啊?因為今天有這個修法嘛,我看你的意見啊,聽一下你的意見因為這是提名跟任命權的問題,提名是不是三元平原那因為目前在憲法裡面提到三元平原大概只有立法委能選舉"},{"start":8911.486,"end":8938.392,"text":"副主委我想這個你本身你本身就是原民你可以站在原民的立場來講一下嘛就是說這樣子會不會比較對於不管是三民的照顧平地原住民的照顧可能會比較有均衡啦比較平衡啦不會每次都是平地原住民擔任或者是三地原住民擔任會讓所有的我們的族人啊你們的族人會感覺怎麼會這樣其他如果另外一個族永遠"},{"start":8939.532,"end":8964.511,"text":"都沒有機會去擔任主委嗎?所以用輪流可能會比較恰當會比較恰當另外就是說我想剛才我也聽莊瑞雄委員講說你們不贊成就是說由這個審查會來統一就是由我們的議員或者鄉鎮長區長來再做一次審查那實際上我想"},{"start":8966.193,"end":8984.731,"text":"當然從憲法的角度我們固然憲法是好像是有所限制但是我是希望說原民會跳脫一種思考邏輯原住民自治重不重要所以我剛剛也跟你講了說好多這個主委的一個如果他要去當主委他的一個要件"},{"start":8985.657,"end":9003.448,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條文修正"},{"start":9015.29,"end":9015.771,"text":"所以說你們可以跳脫這個這個思維啊是不是就是說是很有創意的一個設計啊"},{"start":9023.052,"end":9047.495,"text":"你們看如何來去讓這個條文不違憲的情況之下來以原住民的一個特殊性讓他能夠讓這個條文能夠實踐我覺得有他的必要所以我是建議說副主委你們似乎在未來在主條審查或者你們在提供意見的時候在行政院提供相關意見你們可以跳脫你們現在固有框架的思維"},{"start":9048.776,"end":9067.394,"text":"讓原民的發展能夠更好另外我想再請問你你去過西湖縣沒有?有去過西湖縣我剛才講的就是有五峰還有殲石這兩個原鄉最近五峰鄉的觀光特色景點你可以如列幾個給我聽聽看嗎?"},{"start":9069.741,"end":9095.356,"text":"五峰有溫泉張學良故居五峰的清泉你去過清泉嗎?有去過清泉張學良故居也去過兩次還有三毛的故居嗎?我看最近新北縣政府有向交通部公安局申請了一筆經費來補助整個我們這些觀光景點油氣設施的改善"},{"start":9097.129,"end":9097.469,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9116.264,"end":9116.785,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9134.401,"end":9148.852,"text":"有有有去過啦那當時在一將族委的時候去開幕剪裁嘛那最近我看他運作的也不錯是全台唯一你們原名的一個義文的一個中心就在我們竹東"},{"start":9149.713,"end":9149.753,"text":"主席"},{"start":9169.443,"end":9169.543,"text":"鄭天財委員"},{"start":9204.521,"end":9229.809,"text":"主席、各位委員,有請中副主委,還有人事行政總署。中華民國憲法徵修條文《國家因應民主意願保障原住民族之地位及政治參與》"},{"start":9231.943,"end":9254.638,"text":"本席所提的修法都是合憲你們提到的這個56條憲法56條我們沒有違反所以這個部分我們一個一個來講很重要的原住民族基本法依憲法徵修條文規定要原住民族自治"},{"start":9255.595,"end":9279.069,"text":"但是一直8年來都沒有提一將主委8年來都沒有提過去的主委過去的總統都有送這個原住民組織法到立法院唯獨這8年都沒有蘇貞昌院長說分流立法今天就是分流立法的開始所以我才會提出"},{"start":9280.517,"end":9303.252,"text":"這個相關的這些第二項增加第二項由行政院院長提名給我們原住民去行使同意簽我本來要設計送到立法院行使同意簽但是立法院原住民立委很少所以交給原住民的民意代表從7張以上的行使同意簽"},{"start":9304.704,"end":9328.677,"text":"跟公平會、NCC、中選會、送到立法院行使同意權,很多啊!大法官也是、考試委員也是、監察委員也是啊!對不對?這有什麼違反憲法?沒有違反憲法。好,我們一個一個來齁。你看,你說政務委員來監不行,過去的蒙藏委員會,就是由政務委員來監的。"},{"start":9331.274,"end":9356.568,"text":"一直到106年9月15日以前的盟戰委員會都是政務委員、委員間的那現在行政院組織法第四條這個各委員會這邊設了很多委員會第五條說行政院自政務委員7人至9人特任政務委員得兼任前條委員會之主任委員所以高金素梅提的"},{"start":9358.16,"end":9384.563,"text":"由政務委員來兼完全符合行政院組織法完全符合行政院組織法這個你說任期四年不要有任期和影響這個寫了很多理由那個理由都不是理由國家通信傳播委員會的主任委員就是四年啊中選會的也是四年啊公平教育委員會也是四年啊"},{"start":9385.919,"end":9410.988,"text":"所以寫的時候要謹慎一點包括人事行政總署要謹慎一點本席是老公務員也是寫法的過去很多的組織法尤其是延命會的組織法都是我在推動的好我們看為什麼要有三眼平眼過去從民國85年6月1號開始"},{"start":9413.983,"end":9436.764,"text":"嚴明會成立的主任委員從華家次‧尤哈尼‧伊斯卡卡夫特是三眼,任期都很短了。陳建聯主委是平眼,任期比較長一點。娃麗絲貝琳是三眼。接下來從第五個一將主委,她當了九年了。"},{"start":9438.177,"end":9458.375,"text":"一將主委當了9人是平衍張仁湘平衍孫大川平衍林江毅平衍對不對一將保洛斯平衍現在的曾志勇三衍三衍平衍真的不同啦很多的地方不一樣他們中副主委"},{"start":9460.54,"end":9481.632,"text":"你沒有像我以前當副局長當副主委的時候我跑遍全台灣了包括都會期了你就做不到現在的主任委員更做不到為什麼他們也很忙了常常要來立法院我也了解了所以主委是三員還是平員絕對有差別了"},{"start":9482.864,"end":9483.785,"text":"）立法院第11屆第12會議"},{"start":9503.909,"end":9531.766,"text":"滿一九十代一百零三年十二月十八號提出原住民族自治暫且條例行政院應設原住民族自治政府行政院設原住民族自治政府這是行政院會通過的他的主席由各族的委員來推及而這些委員也就是各族群來推這個是由下而上"},{"start":9532.932,"end":9560.441,"text":"由下而上自主席一人中旅自治七政務由委員推舉提請行政院院長聘任之人不是沒有過啊 院會通過啦因為人是行政總署你比較年輕啦過去沒有看到這個東西中副主委你應該有看過這個啊 對不對這個送到立法院喔 很可惜沒有三讀通過啊"},{"start":9562.608,"end":9590.138,"text":"所以這個部分沒有通過我理由就不講了我們後來有把它改成推動條例那這個這個族群委員啊你這邊寫的寫的那麼長理由都很好但是過去8年來都沒有這樣做了本席當了常務副主委當處長的時候都符合你寫的了但是過去8年來都沒有啊"},{"start":9591.738,"end":9618.746,"text":"原住民族自治,族群委員有沒有跟族委說一定要提,為什麼班也沒有提。土海法,他們要代表各族群啊。所以土海法要送啊。從原民會連送都沒有送到行政院啊。這是唯一的。所以不得不修啊。所以這個部分是這樣,因為你根本就沒有善用族群委員啊。"},{"start":9620.41,"end":9631.195,"text":"我也去了解過你們族群委員參加這個委員會議或是相關的這些法案沒有了每天在鄉下"},{"start":9632.383,"end":9658.111,"text":"每天在鄉下,因為你可能不知道啦,這部罪你不知道。各位報告,其實我們那個族群委員都有分別就各處事的一些工作,在地方做一些考察會刊,或是參與各種會議。我都知道,我常常碰到他們吶,他們都代表主任委員參加婚喪喜慶的。都代表主任委員參加婚喪喜慶。"},{"start":9659.266,"end":9664.45,"text":"時間的關係,這個後面還有很多的委員要提,這個我要特別講的是說,有一個案子比較急迫"},{"start":9677.295,"end":9677.795,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9703.983,"end":9704.563,"text":"副主委"},{"start":9726.367,"end":9745.977,"text":"副主委我要繼續追蹤上次那個兩會基金會員工的這個宿舍的這個問題後來我們好不容易在6月25號收到你們來的這個合約住宅規劃建議案的評估那我前面我實在是我是很不高興平良心講因為你這份報告裡面你花了大部分的篇幅去講說這個沒辦法做這個事"},{"start":9748.854,"end":9762.842,"text":"那我在質詢的時候好幾次的質詢我是沒有講我們要提這個概念的用意是要解決兩會期因為你搬家所以要解決這員工的通勤問題所以我有沒有講說一定要合一住宅不可有嗎"},{"start":9763.804,"end":9767.11,"text":"因為他們裡面董事會有一個董事一直往這邊去建議他們基金會是不是朝合一住宅去處理"},{"start":9779.288,"end":9806.206,"text":"那是他的建議案你跟他溝通沒有問題但是我的質詢是要求你解決住宿跟通勤的問題降低因為搬家造成的離職問題嘛那你要針對我的問題來處理啊那可能在業務單位在處理這個部分有一些誤解又有誤解了搞這麼久的時間還這麼多誤解那不是很奇怪嗎因為當時通知我們說針對合宇住宅這個部分是不是可以做一個說明然後你就只針對這個說明那我前面三次質詢都白講了就對了"},{"start":9807.512,"end":9809.719,"text":"沒有那個部也都還在進行中那請問現在有其他案子嗎?"},{"start":9813.664,"end":9842.391,"text":"並沒有那什麼叫做還在進行中就是還在討論因為目前那個原務會的基金會跟工會之間很多東西都必須要有一些共識第一個問題你在那邊花很多這個篇幅去講合一住宅不可行尤其是你去講取得土地很困難對不對但是我要問你啊取得土地真的有這麼困難嗎除了移轉或者是架構之外難道沒有別的方法嗎"},{"start":9843.43,"end":9844.291,"text":"為什麼你都沒有寫在報告裡面呢?"},{"start":9861.121,"end":9875.957,"text":"是所以可能一直對於合一住宅這個部分來做一個論述你如果可以成就這件事你多花一點時間論述我也很高興啊你寫了一大堆然後結論是不能啊這也不能那個也不能那不是推責任是什麼"},{"start":9877.435,"end":9902.881,"text":"我這樣跟你講嘛你現在要處理土地你講說原民會因為這個是兩個基金會處理的所以原民會沒有辦法協助用地取得我今天就出示一份公文啊國有非公用不動產提供有必要審查意見表你的主管機關只要續名理由不就處理完了嗎該出用或該取得不就有空間了嗎怎麼可能我們國家的法律會去限制你去做這個事情呢那你們有往這個方向想過嗎"},{"start":9908.08,"end":9924.049,"text":"應該沒有那怎麼辦呢我更生氣的是我看到你資料裡面寫什麼最後你要處理這些解決這些員工的問題你總共的經費唸給你聽啦這是你的報告經原文會與工會研議結果交通補助712萬8千搬遷補助389萬4千托育補助90萬非自願離職988萬8千這些數字加起來大概就2千萬我請問你搬遷的時候多少員工受到影響"},{"start":9941.108,"end":9953.543,"text":"三百多位員工?要因為很多人離職對不對?然後你就編這兩千多萬打發這群人了是嗎?你就是這樣寫的啊?你就寫說我就是這兩千多萬要處理這些事情了?"},{"start":9958.467,"end":9986.653,"text":"他都是原住民的弟兄捏而且是在你這個難得有一個很好的工作機會在你裡面可以推動原住民的文化推動原住民的隱世相關的這些工作你不用善待這些人才嗎?你們作為主管機關不用善待這群人才嗎?這個一定要善待他們因為不容易培養到這樣的一個程度是嗎?那萬一他們都離職了你就把900多萬離職資遣費發出去這件事情就算了是不是?那個是最下下策了那就對了嘛為什麼只有2000多萬呢?"},{"start":9988.359,"end":10010.439,"text":"您說沒有誠意是什麼呢?影響這麼多幾百個人欸不是說今天20個人10個人大家個別協商就可以處理了300多個人那很重要的勞動問題欸沒錯沒錯我們政府難道能夠打壓基層勞工嗎?尤其是原住民弟兄很奇怪吧那還有沒有別的方法我想跟委員報告因為上次可能在整個我們是有些誤解的部分"},{"start":10011.397,"end":10026.163,"text":"有關在整個搬遷的事以後我會很快的時間也會找兩個基金會在一起來討論因為他目前一直陸續的還在工會跟基金會之間有一些討論那一直還都沒有一些共識的部分我們會協助他們"},{"start":10027.003,"end":10048.713,"text":"海基會辦公室也是租的國防部國家安全研究院辦公室也是租的你那個地方我們曾經盤點過桃園的土地之所以好用就是因為那邊未來航空城開發計畫怎麼樣我也會有一些國有或者是室友的土地你沒有辦法架構我理解原民會要編預算很困難但你可以租賃你可以償租你可以交換很多方式可以處理嘛"},{"start":10050.117,"end":10069.296,"text":"我會講你講合一住宅他可能不是那麼合不是那麼適合現在政策的這個政策方案我也可以理解啊是但我的目標怎麼就給他一個漂亮亮亮而且距離很近的員工宿舍這有困難嗎難道不應該努力一下嗎有必要有必要對對對好那你什麼時候可以提出新的報告這份我們就作廢了丟垃圾桶可以嗎"},{"start":10070.697,"end":10070.717,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":10100.657,"end":10100.691,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具 «原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案》案。）"},{"start":10405.606,"end":10412.589,"text":"好謝謝那我們現在開始開會好那我們接下來請吳思瑤委員進行詢問麻煩副主委委員好"},{"start":10429.591,"end":10443.651,"text":"謝謝今天來看我們今天的幾個修法的提案那我謝謝鄭天財委員剛剛我們在會議期間在台下有多了一些討論我覺得多討論有利於我們更了解原民的想法"},{"start":10444.291,"end":10468.632,"text":"也更了解提案委員的很多初衷我謝謝鄭天財委員給我很多的指導但當我看到不管是鄭天財委員的提案或是高金素梅委員的提案針對原住民族委員會組織法的一些任用的方式那我個人粗淺的判斷我還是認為它涉及有侵害了憲法的人事任命權也就是立法侵害行政權的疑慮"},{"start":10469.793,"end":10496.205,"text":"所以我們都支持原民政策我們支持讓原民的各項照顧的福利措施更好但是會不會因此又開創了一個違憲的惡例呢我們應當要深思下一頁所以針對今天的修法提案如果說依委員的提案未來強制要求原住民族委員會的主委要兼任政務委員的話那恐怕涉及了影響行政權的人事任命權"},{"start":10497.628,"end":10500.885,"text":"我認為在憲法的分際上是值得商榷的。"},{"start":10503.479,"end":10527.117,"text":"那要讓主委是由山地原住民平地原住民來輪流擔任那我個人也會粗淺的認為就會不會又落入了一個過去傳統的一個統治框架的迷思會不會是走回頭路那也可能去強害了現在原住民族16族的主體性這是我的質疑好下一頁"},{"start":10529.034,"end":10548.843,"text":"主委由審查會來行使同意甚至創設了一個從來沒有見過的主委任命的審查會是由地方議會的議員以及鄉鎮市長來審查這對於中央地方權責的混淆因為它史上未見所以基於這三點理由就交於副主委我的這些分析你們會裡的立場是什麼"},{"start":10551.894,"end":10566.56,"text":"其實就剛剛委員的分析我們是非常的認同因為就我們所寫的報告一樣這個也涉及到憲法56條新政院長提名總統任命相關部會的首長那因為三元平原白你有按麥克風嗎"},{"start":10567.8,"end":10589.73,"text":"有嗎?有有。而且三元平原這個問題本來就是以前統治者為了管理方便所做的一個分析。不要再落入過去的框架。而且也都有種聲音就是希望把三元平原因為回到民族的主體性去各組來去看各民族的相關事務。那特別提到那個委員的部分吳啟子這個部分但我們也是認為"},{"start":10590.936,"end":10592.138,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":10606.036,"end":10611.12,"text":"主委的任命都是中央院長的權責這非常的清楚而目前有兼任政委的是國發會跟國科會但這兩個由政委來兼任主要是因為國發會處理了很多預算公建預算他要分配到各個部會"},{"start":10634.78,"end":10660.931,"text":"國科會也基於他的科學政策的導入他過去從科技部再回到國科會的這個組織的調整這都經過非常縝密的討論也就是國發會跟國科會基於他的特殊屬性由政委來兼任來能夠協力各個部會都進行國家發展以及科技發展的重要政策所以他有必要其他的委員長"},{"start":10662.271,"end":10670.96,"text":"錄委會、金管會、海洋委員會、僑委會、退府會、還有原民會、客委會都沒有用政委來兼任的。"},{"start":10672.056,"end":10673.297,"text":"議員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":10702.276,"end":10723.828,"text":"不需要這樣為分而分這是我個人的看法而且是基於現在的任命的一致性跟需要性所以我對於這幾個委員的提案我表示尊重但我認為值得大大的商榷那剛剛講到還有另外一個提案也就是提到要把行政院的原民會這屬於行政院二級機關的委員從有幾職來改為無幾職"},{"start":10728.741,"end":10742.646,"text":"這些委員就我所知道他們當然跟總統府的原轉會是任務編組這個屬性本質完全不同那這些擔任我們的原民會的委員們平常是不是事務很多"},{"start":10744.467,"end":10765.263,"text":"對,失誤很多除了參加會議還有包括會刊、審查甚至參與部落的一些活動所以他不是只有諮詢的那一類的委員嗎?他實質上是有政務推展跟去執行的必要所以我認為應當維持他的有給值否則我看以後不會有人來做這個工作吧?"},{"start":10765.543,"end":10765.623,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":10785.405,"end":10810.692,"text":"那因為我看到高金素梅委員在他的提案裡頭有提到說為什麼要讓他主張讓原民會的主委是由政委來兼任是因為現在族群歧視很嚴重他認為讓政委來兼任原民會的主委可以有利的來反族群歧視這是高金素梅委員在他的提案說明裡頭很重要的一個重點"},{"start":10813.293,"end":10828.545,"text":"這剛好跟我長期在推動的我認為反族群歧視我們需要一個專法而不是讓原民會的主委由政委來兼任就可以去改變我們要去扭轉的這個族群間的平等好下一頁"},{"start":10829.666,"end":10849.466,"text":"現在的反歧視法在7個法律裏面都散裂欠缺法的一致性所以我多次在這裏都提出以下的這些說法今天是就教於原民會我們好幾個委員林德福委員、鄭天財委員、伍麗華委員、陳寅委員都針對反族群歧視有提過法案"},{"start":10851.408,"end":10880.669,"text":"但是在陳建元院長的指示曾經一度說那由內政部來主責以反族群歧視平等來立法下頁但是經過行政院的審視也包括本席一直在司法法制委員會的倡議我們認為台灣如果要有一部反歧視法或是平等法都應當是方方面面統一規範所有的反歧視的行為不只是族群的它包括性別的工作的包括不同的同志的"},{"start":10883.392,"end":10890.66,"text":"因當擴大反歧視的面向來做一個專法的立法以利於從法律面組織面跟制度面來擺"},{"start":10892.332,"end":10898.957,"text":"因此行政院已經從原本請內政部來做反歧視法現在已經提升到行政院的人權及轉型正義處辦理了三場公聽會提出了行政院版的反歧視法的草案已經公告了"},{"start":10917.532,"end":10939.942,"text":"已經公告了對於受保護的特徵行為領域除外條款政府的義務乃至於受歧視者的賠償及救濟有一個專法的版本五月也就是我們看到然後未來期待會送到立法院來審議我想請問在這一個法的討論裡頭原民會應該扮演了非常重要的角色吧所以那如果有這樣一個專法"},{"start":10941.909,"end":10969.586,"text":"那搭配剛剛高金素梅委員所提的一定要由政務委員來兼任原民會的主委才能夠做到反歧視的作為那你覺得法比較有效還是這個人事任命比較有效當然制度法規很重要是所以我希望從這個面向也能夠說服我們高金委員的提案真的要做到反族群歧視我們需要一個專法法律來支持在各項的作為而不是只讀"},{"start":10971.027,"end":10971.047,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":11001.767,"end":11006.849,"text":"蘇清泉委員鄭振前委員楊瓊英委員陳冠廷委員林倩琦委員"},{"start":11037.357,"end":11058.316,"text":"主委,請問一下主委今天為什麼沒有來?主委,他有其他的會議有行程嘛,對吧?剛才應該也有委員問過啦。剛才休息的時間你們沒有跟他講一下有委員在關心嗎?有沒有?"},{"start":11060.177,"end":11087.515,"text":"行政作為要加油你要加強好嗎要不然常常讓主委在很辛苦的一個狀態下今天本席這邊的一個討論跟建議針對這個條文那很多東西也請你一定要帶回去我想知道主委的一個想法跟意向既然今天是副主委您來一些相關的概念我想跟你做一個討論第一個你希望原住民族自治嗎"},{"start":11088.858,"end":11111.172,"text":"這是長期的目標一直希望20年前大概都開始在推大家都希望嘛所以這是我們這個原住民很期待跟希望而且希望能夠真正落實的一個目標那我們都有這樣一個共同的一個方向要走所以那你同意現在原住民族自治的暫行條例嗎"},{"start":11113.442,"end":11134.544,"text":"草案因為目前的草案是因為前面的歷史過往是五進五出所以現在都還在討論中那所以你們有什麼樣子的看法現在是朝分流立法的方式那目前也對比較可以成為民族自治的族群像包括盧凱族還有太魯閣族"},{"start":11136.158,"end":11164.126,"text":"我們在兩年前就跟他們有一些合作然後請他們就內部民族去做一個討論然後什麼是自治要如何自治等相關的議題那很快大概這兩個民族的一些意見都會提供給我們好 你們排灣族你自己有沒有在參與排灣族的部分在三年前也成立了民族議會他們也正在思考研擬這個方向那因為排灣族的部分分布在台東跟屏東兩個區域"},{"start":11165.476,"end":11194.053,"text":"平東大概四分之三的人口,臺東有四分之一的人口。好,那繼續加油齁你們。我們每一個族群都要好好加油。那所以呢,如果你同意跟我們都希望原住民族有機會自治的話,那為什麼可以請你針對政委員這邊所提出來的,你們認為與憲法有抵觸的部分,可以告訴本席為什麼原住民不能以自身的想法跟理念朝向自治邁進呢?"},{"start":11195.714,"end":11210.408,"text":"因為以目前原民會成立28年來他整個組織法的運作在不同的政黨之下執行的還算順暢那政委員提案這個部分提的不管是任命的部分或者是"},{"start":11211.128,"end":11226.829,"text":"審查同意的部分甚至時間保障的部分因為這個跟憲法有一些明文的規定是有相抵觸的部分所以我們就這個部分其實還有很多必須要突破的那當然56條就明定部會首長必須是院長提請總統任命"},{"start":11228.475,"end":11249.974,"text":"中副我們是原住民國家這個概念應該在我們存在之後才有的所以如果憲法給予我們寬廣的空間那針對第10條第12項你有沒有可能在這樣一個思維下不要自己受限在現有的條文之內自我矮化跟自己設限"},{"start":11251.175,"end":11275.778,"text":"那這樣才會是我們原住民在朝向我們期待的方向才有可能的一個可能性跟思維,你不覺得嗎?你可以懂我講這句話嗎?理解,那因為憲法有按照目前所謂的政黨政治跟行政議題我想現在連釋憲的部分都有特別提到這樣的一個任命都有相關的原則跟規定"},{"start":11276.479,"end":11293.62,"text":"我一直跟您強調第10條的這個部分你們應該跳脫現在已經被殖民跟被框架的思維跳出來到憲法層次來思考原住民的特殊性跟未來"},{"start":11295.709,"end":11322.228,"text":"這是我給你一個建議那好好地想一想先把它想通想懂然後再試著看看不要自己先跳到已經被殖民被框架的條文之內去思考那這樣我們可能會離我們共同的目標還有一段很長的距離好那另外一個是剛才我們七十將高金委員的這個政委來兼"},{"start":11323.789,"end":11349.516,"text":"主委的這樣一個概念我覺得挺好的那我來問一個問題本席有碰到啦不曉得你們覺得是怎樣我覺得所有的原住民的立法委員都很認真的幫你們在推動行政事務那你知道為什麼嗎我們在行政單位都待過你覺得原住民的事務有一個共同的困境是什麼比較複雜多元"},{"start":11351.742,"end":11373.559,"text":"因為複雜多元,所以是一個原民會就可以做的嗎?當然原民會要整理整個原住民的相關政務跟法規所以你覺得你目前的行政能耐能夠去統合各部會嗎?目前我們在各部會之間都有相關的平台在推動相關的跨部會的合作的工作"},{"start":11375.322,"end":11393.493,"text":"在本席私下跟你們同仁在討論一些原住民族的業務的時候你們甚至有人還不太清楚其他部會是怎麼的推動的有些平台你們可能還不太清楚在討論些什麼然後都要本席幫你們在其他的事務上跟委員會來做爭取跟推動"},{"start":11394.734,"end":11420.51,"text":"所以我要講的是那如果政務委員有機會來擔任這樣一個位置主委能兼任主委的話他有沒有可能在一個比較高的高度上來解決你們行政上的困難你覺得有沒有可能同樣的喔同樣的喔不要在自我、行政、殖民、受限跳脫出來一個原住民主體的思考"},{"start":11422.366,"end":11444.091,"text":"這是我給你們的建議所以今天你們既然談到憲法的層次請你以憲法的最高層次來為族群、原住民族爭取最大的利益最重要的是自己的主體性不要在國家概念上的思維被自我矮化謝謝我們共同來努力"},{"start":11447.516,"end":11448.218,"text":"徐新穎委員"},{"start":11465.793,"end":11468.617,"text":"副主委您認為今天審議的法案是不是典型的原住民自治議題?"},{"start":11478.405,"end":11503.9,"text":"是或不是就好了這是組織法是原民會的組織法規那它算不算一種原住民自治的議題嗎當然如果說在整個行政運作上原民自主自行這樣子還有獨立的預算對對對我就問是或不是那剛剛我也聽到林委員質詢的時候您支持原住民自治嗎"},{"start":11505.221,"end":11521.664,"text":"您要表達支持嗎?支持那如果不討論人事、法規、行政院組織等等您贊不贊成提案主委山原平原輪座的主張?您贊不贊成?我先了解山原平原輪座的主張"},{"start":11534.775,"end":11563.986,"text":"因為這樣的輪流主張,它也涉及到未來提名的任命的權利的部分。對,那您贊不贊成嗎?不要浪費我時間,您贊不贊成?贊成或不贊成?以目前來講,目前委員會推動還算順利啦,因為從剛剛委員提出的幾個...好,所以您贊成嘛,贊成嘛。好,那這個目前提案的這種自治應該還算是蠻低度的自治吧?"},{"start":11570.163,"end":11590.442,"text":"所以目前的提案都算比較低度的吧那我現在提比較強度更高的就是由原住民自己選主委或是原住民的領袖主委你的看法支不支持呢所以你不敢講支不支持嗎"},{"start":11591.918,"end":11614.709,"text":"以目前來講我們算在所謂的國家政府組織推行政務要直接對人民負責這樣一個憲政體制底下對嘛所以你那你認不認同原住民自己選出主委或是原住民的領袖原住民領袖都有現在都各族群都有那你指的是什麼"},{"start":11615.734,"end":11618.096,"text":"原住民自治應該不是只有說選出最高領袖還有最高議會"},{"start":11644.356,"end":11658.769,"text":"應該有更多原住民自治的事項的問題,譬如教育、經濟、文化、語言等等。在您的看法,這個給你多一點,給你30秒,你講一下你的概念跟想法好不好。"},{"start":11660.27,"end":11681.007,"text":"這個也是謝謝委員我們應該是看法是相同的因為就原住民的語言的部分必須要自治所以現在108年通過了原住民族語言法讓原住民族的語言成為國家的語言我指的是更多原住民自治事項語言只是其中一項包括您教育的部分因為有原住民族教育法對對對那您有沒有"},{"start":11683.23,"end":11690.179,"text":"這個對於我們推動原住民自治這些比較具體實體事項的推動程序的規劃"},{"start":11692.096,"end":11715.072,"text":"你怎麼來推動?整體推動還是你們是採用分流立法?現在採用分流立法的方式因為以目前推動的相關工作包括所謂的鄉鎮市區長大概像以三地原住民鄉鎮所有的鄉鎮市區長是一定要具有原住民身份所以他就鄉來講他算是一個鄉自治的一個機制"},{"start":11718.102,"end":11734.564,"text":"所以您現在所講的很多分流的推動,很多都是周邊的事務,那一些比較自治的核心事項,您有沒有想過?有,根本沒有辦法,因為自治上次提到過,因為它五金的存在...那最核心的是什麼?"},{"start":11734.904,"end":11757.035,"text":"五進五出在立法院因為它涉及到整個行政區的劃分這個也會面臨衝擊比如說花蓮、台東這兩個縣因為都是原住民鄉鎮為什麼會五進五出啊?草案從89年就開始提出草案是因為沒有共識還是怎麼樣?還是不完備?它裡面的爭議的議題很多比如說我舉一個例子"},{"start":11757.97,"end":11769.804,"text":"在民族自治以後全面衝擊行政區域,對於一個行政區域來講,它的影響,比如說花蓮台東兩個縣可能就會不存在了。所以會影響到我們一般非原住民的意思,所以這個需要比較久時間,大家要有共識。"},{"start":11779.334,"end":11795.363,"text":"我們在新竹就有兩個鄉他要脫離新竹縣變成這樣子而且民族跟民族之間有一些重疊的地方所以怎麼樣具體推動而且可以落實這個才是你們的挑戰好不好接著時間不多了"},{"start":11796.383,"end":11815.407,"text":"接下來本席要就原民就業自治條例的部分來就教於您。行政院5月3號函告臺北新北,對不對?您應該很清楚。有關原住民就業自治條例部分條文無效。那雙北市政府分別在5月30、6月3號提起訴願。"},{"start":11818.648,"end":11828.031,"text":"行政院原民會也回應了地方政府提出訴願將循程序進行。副主委,請問無效的理由是什麼?"},{"start":11838.103,"end":11850.149,"text":"各位委員報告因為這個雙北的那個自治條例因為目前我們有原住民族工作權保障法主要有第四條第五條還有政府採購法的相關規定已經有規範了所以抵觸的是這兩部法律"},{"start":11853.915,"end":11869.369,"text":"是抵觸了原住民族工作權保障法以及政府採購法的相關規定那這樣本席就教您一下原住民工作對工作權保障法第24條也有規定說得標廠商要因一定"},{"start":11869.989,"end":11895.494,"text":"一律依差額人數乘以每個月基本工資來計算繳納代金經過司法院第810號解釋是違憲而且特別提到說要致辭這最慢於本解釋公佈之日是110年10月8日起兩年內要依據"},{"start":11896.814,"end":11917.804,"text":"這一個司法院的解釋違憲的意旨要修正之他兩年內要修正我們現在已經超過兩年又八個月了為什麼沒有修正是 各位說明目前這部法律已經送進立法院了兩年多了還所謂送進立法院那為什麼沒有審"},{"start":11919.793,"end":11947.888,"text":"什麼時候送進立法院的?今年2月的時候,今年2月也已經超過這個兩年,兩年內你今年2月已經超過兩年四個月才送進立法院所以過去這兩年四個月在做什麼?去年在9月的時候已經送過,然後今年又再送第二次所以9月的時候沒有審完是不是?完全沒審那你們有沒有去拜託召委排案啊?執政黨每一個委員會都也有召委"},{"start":11949.722,"end":11977.08,"text":"所以我們最想知道那你們的立場跟態度是什麼?究竟打算怎麼做?就是因為你說你們都回復說已經送立法院了這個答案我知道啊但是就這句話然後繼續躺在那繼續躺然後都一直過期那你到底有沒有真的想要做維護原住民族的這個工作權保障?"},{"start":11979.867,"end":11980.788,"text":"主席副主委你要加把勁吧"},{"start":12004.329,"end":12005.75,"text":"接下來我們請張志倫委員張志倫委員張志倫委員張志倫委員沒有來那所有發言"},{"start":12032.674,"end":12059.506,"text":"登記發言委員都已經發言完畢好訊答結束那委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關謹速送交個別委員及本聯席會委員黃建斌、高金素梅、傅坤祺、翁曉琳、王美惠、胡齊明、楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆"},{"start":12063.308,"end":12071.9,"text":"本次會議進行到此結束議員討論事項未及處理部分令定期繼續審查現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}