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了解我說是不是比人家高是確實是有稍微是偏高如果以關稅來看就已經偏高了台灣是貿易順差國呢了解"},{"start":157.95,"end":182.348,"text":"但是因為也跟我們報告因為我們從美國進口的車子很多都是電動車電動車現在都是只有關稅17.5而已電動車是整車輸入嗎對對整車輸入好那另外要請教那個懲罰署陳副署長每次提到這個汽車的這個關稅啊貨物稅啊就尤其是關稅的部分經濟部就一直在講說這個台灣有多少人靠這個汽車產業在"},{"start":184.535,"end":203.094,"text":"從事這個汽車產業靠這個才有工作到底真正的人數是多少報告委員汽車除了整車廠還有零件廠那整車廠目前是一萬就業人數零件廠是七萬合計八萬但是呢那組裝廠呢組裝廠就是整車廠一萬"},{"start":208.659,"end":230.987,"text":"除了這個以外因為有很多模具相關的供應商像什麼塑膠零件等等那些整體加起來整個約有30萬的那你乾脆把那個煉油廠也都算進來好了啦你連那個汽車這個零件的模具連開模具你就算那我現在問一個問題啦齁"},{"start":233.168,"end":262.751,"text":"台灣的市場就算你飽和他總共的量數也是有限所以台灣的零件廠必須要走向全世界其實台灣有很多的汽車零件他是行銷全世界他賣的很好那種反而是希望雙方都降低稅金嘛最好我們出口的國家稅金也降低台灣的稅金也降低讓台灣的零件既然可以行銷全世界這樣才能養活更多的人啊"},{"start":264.742,"end":292.268,"text":"所以每次講的時候你都把它混為一談會影響的就是只有汽車的組裝廠嘛就是所謂的整車廠這一部分嘛所以我是覺得這個大家講的時候要講清楚好不好你每次都就 憨不啷噹就講說三十幾萬然後現在跟我講說組裝廠的這個整車廠的一萬人然後汽車零件廠的七萬人然後再加上你有沒有沒啊 開沒啊 什麼的這個全部加在一起三十幾萬"},{"start":293.717,"end":312.126,"text":"我覺得你們這樣的講法不好欸經濟部應該就是就事論事啦齁這個事情如果弄清楚之後希望以後不要再聽到說啊這個如果怎麼樣的話會影響到三十幾萬人如果你這樣講的話哪一天跟美國談關稅降低了你是不是要救助這三十幾萬人啊"},{"start":315.973,"end":344.685,"text":"所以要在事實的基礎上談論問題啦這是我的希望第二個我上次也問過財政部部長你也回答我這個問題現在我們定義說只要在台灣加值超過35%的就算沒得贏台灣但是美國那一邊啊他說只要原料產品有35%以上是從中國來的他就算是中國的產品"},{"start":346.274,"end":374.916,"text":"那我就要問一個問題當然這個問題是你現在是不是邏輯上給他推理有中國的零件或是中國的原料百分之五十在台灣加值百分之五十輸出到美國去台灣說這是台灣made in Taiwan美國說是made in China那到底是made in Taiwan還是made in China報告委員我們現在第一點就是"},{"start":377.01,"end":401.624,"text":"貨物的原產地由進口國海關來認定所以是哪一個國家進口那個國家的海關來認定第二點根據世界海關組織官務組織他們有規定就是現在台灣的原產地規則是follow這個世界官務組織的一個規定就是使用進口原材料你如果在台灣附加價值達到35%"},{"start":404.245,"end":430.761,"text":"或者你的稅則有轉換所以我使用進口的原料在台灣附加價值超過35%你就可以視同是台灣原產這是我們目前的規定啊就是這個規定喔對台灣帶來莫大的危機啊所以當台灣的廠商信誓旦旦說對啊我沒得贏台灣啊我出口當然沒得贏台灣所以我出口要台灣出口是台灣製造"},{"start":432.521,"end":459.673,"text":"從美國的觀點就是你就台灣在替中國洗產地對不對進口國認為35%的原料來自中國他就認為是中國製造結果我們這邊的廠商在我們政府的規定我這是台灣製造啊我台灣製造所以我出口去美國啊那美國就剛好用那個標準說你看你這就是台灣在替中國洗產地所以我直接要問說這個問題到底要如何解決啊"},{"start":460.972,"end":478.04,"text":"報告委員 我們進口國認定這個原產地規則是各國的通則那我們這個部分我們會來跟我跟你講川普就是要改變世界的貿易規則嘛你看不懂他在改變世界的貿易規則嗎是 我們理解那我們會來研議說怎麼來處理這個我們進口原產地的規則"},{"start":483.004,"end":501.115,"text":"對啊 這個我是覺得這個是我們一個很大的危機我現在看一看那個洗產地的問題我們台灣用35%實在是太寬鬆了我跟你講中國的這個電動車現在全世界大家都在想辦法要防堵它如果照你的標準我弄65%的中國的電動車來然後我台灣給你組裝加值超過35%你們沒得贏台灣啊台灣人能相信這是沒得贏台灣嗎"},{"start":510.353,"end":516.142,"text":"那中國用你台灣這個標準給你弄進來那台灣就要接受嗎"},{"start":519.561,"end":539.713,"text":"委員我們除了我剛剛講的那兩個原則六月碼轉換跟35%的這個附加價值其實還有一個叫做實質轉型的認定如果你認為特別的製程要在台灣發生這個都可以去規範我們可以來討論如何來認定針對我們MIT的產品如何來認定它是台灣我跟你講現在其實有兩個問題啦齁你所謂照全世界的標準"},{"start":544.275,"end":572.016,"text":"有兩個大國現在不準備照選制的標準第一個就是中國他不準備照世界的標準他參加WTO之後他從來就沒有照世界標準他到處在犯規所以才引起美國對他的制裁嘛那再來就是美國川普因為上台之後為了要解決這個問題所以他現在要改變世界貿易規則就像你台灣就夾在兩個中間然後就假裝說沒有我就照世界規則我跟你講你現在照世界規則你會死的"},{"start":573.55,"end":585.375,"text":"在現在這個時空環境之下你對中國要特別對待他因為他不照WTO來的那你對待美國要怎麼樣好好的跟他談"},{"start":587.113,"end":604.865,"text":"假設台灣的關稅談判會失敗我認為最大的可能性就是美國一直懷疑你台灣在替中國洗慘地這是最大的危機所以我一直問財政部說你們那個小額小額包裹對不對美國現在都在制裁"},{"start":606.291,"end":623.117,"text":"要把那個小兒包裹要加到官司要加到120%從墨西哥去的從加拿大去的都一樣所以我們到底是要用什麼樣的態度我們希望他們不要多把他賴給說我現在在談判我現在在談判自己好好趕快想清楚因為我們問了這個問題問了好久了都沒答案啊"},{"start":624.917,"end":649.304,"text":"報告委員那基本上當然就是剛才就是針對那個中國藉由台灣洗產業這件事情我們一定是會嚴格查核的那至於剛才講到那個小兒包裹那個要不要就是考慮他的免稅取消的部分這個部分目前我們已經在積極的不是我是跟你講說你所謂的嚴格查核應該是要去把你那個標準到底是什麼重新"},{"start":650.731,"end":672.483,"text":"你如果照法令標準底下再來執行那你法令跟標準是錯的大前提是錯的時候你底下這個再怎麼執行結論也會是錯的啦所以我剛剛講的就是前提的檢討拜託加油啦我們台灣很大的危機在這個地方加油謝謝謝謝吳秉瑞吳委員來我們賴昭偉來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":197,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（10時）麻煩請財政部李次長和經濟部產發署陳副署長。"],["主席（林委員德福代）：請陳副署長、李次長，謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：委員早安。"],["吳委員秉叡：次長，先跟你請教，現在美國的汽車進口到臺灣總共要付多少稅金、比例？"],["李次長慶華：目前進口關稅是17.5%，再加上貨物稅，如果是小客車的話有25%或30%，2,000cc以下是25%、2,000cc以上是30%，加起來最高是47.5%，再加上營業稅5%的話，大概是52.5%。"],["吳委員秉叡：最高是52.5%，臺灣賣到美國相同的汽車，假設是油車、也是2,000cc以上的話，進口到美國要付多少關稅？付多少稅金？"],["李次長慶華：美國的關稅是2.5%，但是因為他們也是有課徵貨物稅。"],["吳委員秉叡：加起來是多少？"],["李次長慶華：加起來多少我們沒有辦法講，因為我們只有一個貨物稅金額的區間。"],["吳委員秉叡：區間也可以講。"],["李次長慶華：我只能講大概，對於高耗油量汽車的話，每輛車行駛公里9.1以上是每公升課3萬3,000美元……"],["吳委員秉叡：每公升？你有沒有弄錯單位？"],["李次長慶華：換算臺幣是每公升3萬3,000元的貨物稅，最高可以課到25萬4,100元。"],["吳委員秉叡：每公升是指？"],["李次長慶華：每公升耗油。"],["吳委員秉叡：不是吧？一輛車……"],["李次長慶華：它是以每公升行駛的里程數9公里以上來計算，只是因為我們搜尋到的資料是一個數額，所以這個部分可能還沒辦法詳細的跟委員報告，我們可能會後看是不是……"],["吳委員秉叡：就是我們的稅比人家多很多，對不對？坦白講，就是這樣子。"],["李次長慶華：相對來講，以關稅來看是相對高，但是貨物稅可能還要再做比較。"],["吳委員秉叡：總體加在一起，我要總體比，因為我們自己把稅分為好幾項，然後說我只有拿關稅跟你比，我覺得這樣不好。"],["李次長慶華：是，瞭解。"],["吳委員秉叡：是不是比人家高？"],["李次長慶華：確實是有稍微偏高，如果以關稅來看就已經偏高了。"],["吳委員秉叡：臺灣是貿易順差國。"],["李次長慶華：瞭解。但是也要跟委員報告，我們從美國進口的車子很多都是電動車，電動車現在都是只有關稅17.5%而已。"],["吳委員秉叡：電動車是整車輸入嗎？"],["李次長慶華：對，整車輸入。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外要請教產發署陳副署長，每次提到汽車關稅、貨物稅，尤其是關稅的部分，經濟部一直在講臺灣有多少人靠從事汽車產業才有工作，到底真正的人數是多少？"],["陳副署長佩利：報告委員，汽車除了整車廠還有零件廠，整車廠目前是1萬就業人數，零件廠是7萬，合計8萬。"],["吳委員秉叡：組裝廠呢？"],["陳副署長佩利：組裝廠就是整車廠1萬，除此之外，因為還有很多模具相關的供應商，像塑膠零件等等，整體加起來約有30萬的就業人數。"],["吳委員秉叡：你乾脆把煉油廠也都算進來好了，你連汽車零件的模具，連開模的你都算進去。我再問一個問題，臺灣的市場就算已飽和，總共的輛數也是有限的，所以臺灣的零件廠必須要走向全世界，其實臺灣有很多汽車零件是行銷全世界賣得很好，它反而希望雙方都降低稅金，最好是我們出口國家的稅金也降低，臺灣的稅金也降低，讓臺灣的零件可以行銷全世界，這樣才能夠養活更多的人啊！"],["陳副署長佩利：贊成。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以每次講的時候，你都把它混為一談，會影響的只有汽車的組裝廠，就是所謂的整車廠這一部分嘛！我是覺得大家講的時候要講清楚，好不好？你每次都夯不啷噹就說三十幾萬，現在跟我講組裝廠、整車廠的1萬人，汽車零件廠的7萬人，再加上開模或什麼的，全部加在一起三十幾萬人，我覺得你們這樣的講法不好欸！經濟部應該就事論事，這個事情如果弄清楚之後，希望以後不要再聽到如果怎麼樣的話，會影響到三十幾萬人。如果你這樣講的話，哪一天跟美國談關稅降低了，你是不是要救助這三十幾萬人啊？所以要在事實的基礎上談論問題，這是我的希望。","第二個，我上次問過財政部部長，你也回答過我這個問題，現在我們的定義是只要在臺灣加值超過35%，就算Made in Taiwan，但是美國那一邊說，只要原料產品有35%以上是從中國來的─就算是中國的產品。我現在問一個問題，你現在是不是在邏輯上進行推理，有中國的零件或是中國的原料50%，在臺灣加值50%，當它輸出到美國，臺灣說這是Made in Taiwan，美國說是Made in China，那到底是Made in Taiwan還是Made in China？"],["陳副署長佩利：報告委員，第一點，貨物的原產地由進口國海關來認定，所以是哪一個國家進口，由那個國家的海關來認定；第二點，根據世界關務組織有規定，現在臺灣的原產地規則是follow世界關務組織的規定，就是使用進口原材料，如果在臺灣附加價值達到35%，或者你的稅則有轉換，所以我們使用進口的原料在臺灣附加價值超過35%，就可以視同是臺灣原產，這是我們目前的規定。"],["吳委員秉叡：就是這個規定對臺灣帶來莫大的危機，當臺灣的廠商信誓旦旦地說：對啊！我是Made in Taiwan，我出口，當然Made in Taiwan；所以我在臺灣出口，是臺灣製造。但從美國的觀點，就是臺灣在替中國洗產地，對不對？進口國認為35%的原料來自中國，他就認為是中國製造，結果我們這邊的廠商照我們政府的規定，我這是臺灣製造啊！我臺灣製造，所以我出口去美國啊！美國就剛好用他的標準說：你看，這就是臺灣在替中國洗產地！所以我直接要問這個問題到底要如何解決？"],["陳副署長佩利：報告委員，我們進口國認定原產地規則是各國的通則，這個部分我們會來跟……"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你講，川普就是要改變世界的貿易規則嘛！你看不懂他在改變世界的貿易規則嗎？"],["陳副署長佩利：是！我們理解，我們會來研議如何處理我們進口原產地的規則。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊！我覺得這是我們一個很大的危機欸！我現在看一看洗產地的問題，臺灣用35%，實在是太寬鬆了！我跟你講中國的電動車，現在全世界大家都在想辦法要防堵他們，如果照你的標準，我弄65%的中國的電動車來，在臺灣組裝加值超過35%，就是Made in Taiwan？臺灣人能相信這是Made in Taiwan嗎？中國用臺灣這個標準給你弄進來，臺灣就要接受嗎？"],["陳副署長佩利：委員，除了我剛剛講的那兩個原則，6位碼轉換跟35%的附加價值，還有一個叫作實質轉型的認定，如果你認為特別的製程要在臺灣發生，這個都可以去規範，針對MIT的產品，我們可以來討論如何來認定它是臺灣製。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你講，現在其實有兩個問題，你所謂的照全世界標準，有兩個大國現在不準備照全世界的標準，第一個就是中國不準備照世界的標準，他們參加WTO之後就沒有照世界的標準，到處在犯規，所以才引起美國對他的制裁嘛！再來就是美國的川普，因為上臺之後，為了解決這個問題，所以他現在改變世界貿易規則，臺灣夾在兩者中間，然後就假裝說：沒有，我就是照世界規則。我跟你講，你現在照世界規則，就死定了！在現在這個時空環境之下，對中國你要特別對待，因為他們不照WTO來的。你對待美國要怎麼樣好好地跟他們談？假設臺灣的關稅談判會失敗，我認為最大的可能性就是美國一直懷疑臺灣在替中國洗產地，這是最大的危機，所以我一直問財政部你們的小額包裹，對不對？美國現在都在制裁，他們要把小額包裹的關稅加到120%，從墨西哥去的、從加拿大去的都一樣，結果我們到底是要用什麼樣的態度？我們希望你們不要都把原因賴到因為現在在談判，自己好好趕快想清楚，因為我們問了這個問題，問好久了都沒答案啊！"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，針對中國藉由臺灣洗產地的這件事情，我們一定是會嚴格查核，至於剛才講到小額包裹要不要考慮它的免稅取消，對此目前我們已經在積極研議當中。"],["吳委員秉叡：不是，我是跟你說，你所謂的嚴格查核，應該是要去把那個標準到底是什麼重新檢視，如果你照標準、照法令再來執行，假使法令跟標準是錯的、大前提是錯的時候，底下再怎麼執行，結論也會是錯的啦！"],["李次長慶華：是。有關剛才委員提到的，我們也會跟經濟部一起來做相關的研討。"],["吳委員秉叡：我剛剛講的就是前提的檢討。好，拜託，加油啦！臺灣很大的危機就在這個地方，加油，謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員。","來，請我們的賴召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-9","speakers":["賴士葆","黃珊珊","林德福","林思銘","陳玉珍","王世堅","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","黃建賓","吳秉叡","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","林思銘","羅明才","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：(一) 本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草\n案」案、(二) 本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案、(三) 本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案、 (五) 本院委員魯明哲等\n16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐\n欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、\n委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等\n16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案、(六) 本院委員李坤城等24人\n擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案、(七) 本院\n委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委\n員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19\n人、委員楊瓊瓔等20 人、委員邱鎮軍等24 人、委員萬美玲等18 人、委員廖偉翔等17 人分別擬具\n「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案、(八) 本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例\n第十二條之三條文修正草案」案；二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案","agenda_id":"1144001_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}