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279,"text":"二、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員會報告併案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人擬具︰"},{"start":3017.898,"end":3035.18,"text":"好,謝謝主席,這一條當初說的就是那個黑美卡的這個防制措施啦那因為我們當初提的想法是因為有些國外提供的這種跨國賣油服務嘛他其實在購買這樣相關的SIM卡的時候是沒有任何實名制的機制的嘛"},{"start":3035.62,"end":3047.994,"text":"那也就是變成詐騙集團去利用的這樣子的一個破口那我們覺得問題很嚴重所以當初提修正動議的概念就是說要變成因為他們都要跟我我國的這個電信業者做借接嘛才能夠去使用服務"},{"start":3048.547,"end":3070.416,"text":"所以它變成一個臨櫃登記的一個程序就強迫等於在強迫在我國境內完成實名制的這個登錄手續啦當初大概行政院端是覺得說這東西怕知識體大衝擊太大所以行政院的版本是說做護照號碼的登錄啦做護照號碼的登錄那後來我們這個行政院這邊NCE這邊有來辦公室做協商"},{"start":3071.016,"end":3093.454,"text":"那協商最後的結果是我還是希望實名制的精神可以保存所以既然說電信中間有辦法透過輸入護照號碼的方式來處理那我就要求就是輸入護照號碼加上護照持有人的姓名用這樣子的方式雙重把關這樣也可以避免大家只是單純去取得一組護照號碼就可以冒名使用這件事情有號碼有名字可以交叉比對"},{"start":3093.814,"end":3094.154,"text":"法條修正"},{"start":3113.239,"end":3130.776,"text":"這個修正完的版本那另外一個部分是我們有講嘛是這個當初要輸入護照號碼是為了要查詢他是在他是有沒有出境嘛但我覺得除了出境是否出境之外還有預期停留跟拘留這樣一個事情那這這個後面這件事情在當天委員會審查的時候就已經達成共識了"},{"start":3131.917,"end":3158.553,"text":"所以我唸一下最新的修正條文的版本如果大家同意我們就按照這個修正條文來處理就我們要把它改成電信事業提供境外高風險電信事業提供之全部或一部國際漫遊服務前於技術可行下應依前項第一項資料庫認證電信使用人之護照號碼及姓名就我們直接把它入法啦讓登記什麼直接很清楚經查證使用電信人如"},{"start":3159.553,"end":3188.593,"text":"無入境資料者不得提供國際漫遊服務但經使用電信人向電信事業臨櫃提示身份證明文件供核對及登錄後得提供國際漫遊服務電信事業應提供前項電信服務後應借接第一項資料庫並定期查詢該使用電信人是否出境或預期停留或拘留電信事業提供第一項電信服務後發現使用電信人有資料不實異常使用行為或依前項查詢以出境或預期停留"},{"start":3189.413,"end":3214.967,"text":"或拘留時應限制或停止提供該項電信服務後面都跟行政院版本一樣那另外我們在中間溝通的過程中這個也有人提醒就是說因為你講的所謂叫於技術可行可能會形成另外的漏洞但是如果我們一直在談論這些細節的話很有可能這法條到最後都不會有結果所以我希望除了修正條文照我們的版本通過之外"},{"start":3216.047,"end":3241.692,"text":"我希望再做一個附帶決議啦看在黨團協商的這個機制來做附帶決議可以也就是一年之後我們要針對這一條的執行成效提出完整的報告到底這個機制有沒有辦法有效防範黑媒卡我們在一段時間之後法條上路的一年之後我們要有足夠的數據資料來做檢討如果他有必要再修正再加嚴的時候大家也有憑有據所以我今天來這邊協商大概這兩個要求是否有當我們就大家討論一下謝謝"},{"start":3243.139,"end":3243.159,"text":"蕭政東議員"},{"start":3269.527,"end":3273.248,"text":"那第二十條就照牛刑庭委員的修正動議通過有沒有問題"},{"start":3297.244,"end":3302.525,"text":"二十條就照牛刑庭委員的修正動議通過二十條就照牛刑庭委員的修正動議通過我們現在討論第44條"},{"start":3328.703,"end":3334.485,"text":"來44條修正動議有麥一貞委員、習以貞委員、劉行廷委員提出的修正動議行廷要說明還是以貞要說明來劉行廷委員是第58頁、習以貞委員是第51頁"},{"start":3356.499,"end":3359.703,"text":"我們有提這個法條的內容有點拗口,但概念是這樣"},{"start":3371.114,"end":3392.185,"text":"本來的條文是說在中華民國領域之外以供詐欺犯罪所用之設備對於中華民國領域之內的犯罪也就是說是在境外提供設備啦但我們就想說既然都有這樣的法條就是不只是境外提供設備境外直接詐欺犯罪也應該要納入懲罰嘛所以我們的法條是在中華民國領域外"},{"start":3392.825,"end":3411.616,"text":"或以在中華民國領域外提供詐欺犯罪所用設備對中華民國領域內的犯罪加重期刑概念上是這樣也就是說在境外你不管是本人設詐或者是提供相關的工具都要加重期刑這是我們44條我們修正版本的精神我想這樣應該會比較完備以上"},{"start":3413.746,"end":3417.208,"text":"本來行政院版本是在中華民國領域外以供詐欺犯罪設備對中華民國領域內的販資"},{"start":3437,"end":3458.575,"text":"換句話說,那個無論是人、共犯在國外,或者設備在國外,本來就在我們行政院版本含澀的範圍之內啦。所以劉偉寧提的,其實事實上在原來條文就已經含澀在我們原來的條文範圍之內了。他是在……我們44條的第二款"},{"start":3461.841,"end":3490.96,"text":"無論是人在國外或者設備在國外他只要有一樣東西在國外對國內進行犯罪就構成加重的要件了確定喔?對沒錯沒錯有嗎?有問題喔好我們法務部處長所提出聲明好我們牛心亭委員、習一貞委員好來謝謝習一貞主席我那個只是調次的所以主要是牛心亭委員的這個版本"},{"start":3493.479,"end":3494.18,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3516.196,"end":3544.182,"text":"是不是做一下說明我剛才跟委員報告我們條文是在中華民國領域外以供設備對國內進行販資所以只要是人或設備在國外都包括他如果在境外但是他沒有使用設備因為你講法條內容是講說以供詐欺犯罪所用之設備他如果沒有用設備就他是個人或是用其他的形態"},{"start":3545.287,"end":3573.42,"text":"口頭或什麼樣的方式詐騙口頭應該不太可能啦因為一個在國內一個在國內沒有提供設備的狀況之下對那在國外沒有進行沒有用設備進行電詐這不可想像啊就是說不可想像說在國外沒有用設備反而對國內進行詐欺所以基本上你們在法條詮釋的時候只要在國外對國內就一定會有設備的問題就對了對對對那國外他基本上他國外又有機房嘛對國內進行詐騙無法想像就是說在國外人在國外卻沒有"},{"start":3574.5,"end":3574.641,"text":"設備進行對國內進行詐騙"},{"start":3578.598,"end":3603.328,"text":"我們正是在處罰這個境外的機房對境外的機房對國內進行詐騙那如果是這樣那我就不堅持啦但是我是覺得要稍微清楚一點那也請法務部回去思考一下有沒有一些特殊的形態比如說教唆或什麼樣的方式我覺得其實反正大家都支持這種做詐騙的事情要罰得越重越好所以也請法務部做一下思考啦目前這樣我們為了不耽誤法條的進度我們就不堅持了謝謝"},{"start":3606.479,"end":3617.167,"text":"好 謝謝我們劉欣庭委員那針對我們法務部的聲明我們還是照行政院版通過好不好好好來來好44條好美華33委員"},{"start":3620.487,"end":3640.642,"text":"謝謝主席我想我們的台灣民眾黨的版本主要是針對44條上次的43條他們講的是金額那現在44條講的是集體那集體的概念那我們是認為說只有三人以上不等於有組織犯罪所以我們希望還是能夠納入"},{"start":3643.923,"end":3667.628,"text":"三九之四第一項各款並犯組織犯罪的這個部分能夠加進來因為第一項只有三人以上但是要到組織犯罪的話其實並沒有特別再加重我們的版本是希望在已經到組織犯罪的程度的部分另外再加一個加重的條款所以這個是這個版本的第一項"},{"start":3669.568,"end":3694.978,"text":"第二、第三項、第四項這兩條我們希望能夠加上去好 謝謝 謝謝我們黃珊珊委員那是不是請我們法務部來做說明跟主席及法務委員報告事實上法務部的行政院版本事實上它是比較客觀上操作上可行你只要客觀上它的共犯達到3人以上就把它加重那如果按照這個就是我們黃委員或民眾黨版本的話它必須要犯組織犯罪條例"},{"start":3696.198,"end":3711.074,"text":"實際上我們犯罪組織條例在實務上要成立的可能性是相對的困難因為組織犯罪條例有它的構成要件要有集團性、要有牟利性、要有結構性非常複雜的一個構成要件所以事實上反而日後在實務上要去審查它是不是構成組織"},{"start":3712.615,"end":3732.631,"text":"這個反而是困難的。這第一點。第二點呢,如果說這個又把組織把規範成犯罪構成要件的話,是不是會有重複評價的問題?什麼意思叫重複評價呢?就是說我們組織犯罪條例已經在評價這個集團一次了。你現在又在我們家種裡面再把評價一次,就等於這一個行為被評價了兩次。"},{"start":3734.392,"end":3746.267,"text":"所以說本部的立場是希望就能夠照院版的通過用客觀數字超過共犯3人以上我就把加重未來在事務上是具有可操作性的以上補充謝謝"},{"start":3751.72,"end":3768.164,"text":"三人以上是你們第一項第二款用三人以上的方式去犯用三人以上的方式去犯會加重期刑但他如果到組織犯罪的程度有沒有再加重"},{"start":3768.664,"end":3793.42,"text":"根文報告,他如果犯組織犯罪條例的話,另外我們就用《刑法上想像進合》去做,衝一重處斷,不會把這個想像進合調給吃掉了。他如果這個組織犯罪條例比較重,我們就論那個組織犯罪要不要。所以確認,確認他有組織犯罪的情況下,他就會更重的狀態。對對對對對。反正公報商都有,以後不要變成說中間有漏掉,不會掛一漏萬。對不會不會,他如果一行為同時犯"},{"start":3793.961,"end":3798.717,"text":"詐欺跟組織犯罪條例用重的想像進合就按照想像進合範圍去處理重重阻斷"},{"start":3799.481,"end":3823.773,"text":"如果是濟民說他已經是三人以上,然後如果到組織犯罪的程度,他會更加重的情況,那就可以超越這個法條本身的重度。對,他如果另外再構成組織犯罪條例,我們組織犯罪條例的組織發起那是最很重。對,我們主要是要抓那個首謀啦,主要是要抓首謀跟這些粗點子,然後沒有在裡面實際行為的人,這些人要把他揪出來。"},{"start":3824.913,"end":3827.094,"text":"四條就照行政院的提案好不好"},{"start":3849.633,"end":3877.33,"text":"好,那大家還沒有意見沒有意見我們就照行政院版通過謝謝好,現在我們49條49條的修正動議有徐以貞委員、牛行廷委員還有司法院的版本"},{"start":3881.359,"end":3882.719,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3904.23,"end":3923.259,"text":"報告主席以及在座的委員先進。司法院提的版本是另列第二項。前項規定行為人如屬少年應依少年事件處理法相關規定辦理。本條是因為我們少事法第81條對於我們的少年假釋的部分有另外特別的要件。"},{"start":3924.139,"end":3940.453,"text":"跟這個詐欺危害防制條例草案的第49條的要件有一些不一樣為求這個法律的解讀的這個是一致性避免矛盾所以建議增列第二項然後另外在立法理由的部分也增列第四點的說明以上補充報告"},{"start":3949.994,"end":3951.575,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3980.181,"end":4006.202,"text":"現在我們處理第57條57條的修正動議我習以珍委員我們所提出的修正動議請我們習以珍委員來做說明57條也是條次57條也是條次這樣喔好那我們就照行政院提案修正通過好不好好謝謝"},{"start":4010.572,"end":4010.973,"text":"主席"},{"start":4029.056,"end":4054.115,"text":"好,那我們回過頭來我們現在是不是我們休息三分鐘好不好我們金管會跟我們習政委員來做說明好不好現在休息三分鐘"},{"start":4061.561,"end":4061.601,"text":"主席響鐘"},{"start":4092.948,"end":4094.409,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4122.962,"end":4145.451,"text":"二、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、台灣民眾黨黨及委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、委員何欣純等21人�"},{"start":4148.573,"end":4174.092,"text":"二、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員會報告併案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、"},{"start":4176.52,"end":4198.792,"text":"二、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員會報告併案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防"},{"start":4199.412,"end":4224.643,"text":"二、委員何欣純等21人分別擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、台灣民眾黨黨及委員何欣純等21人分別擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人分別擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人分別擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人分別擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防"},{"start":4228.829,"end":4229.81,"text":"負責擬負責擬負"},{"start":4248.805,"end":4275.986,"text":"二、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）事由：一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4278.047,"end":4278.527,"text":"太離譜了啊"},{"start":4303.394,"end":4304.715,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4321.673,"end":4321.853,"text":"主席響鐘"},{"start":4341.384,"end":4344.927,"text":"市長有準備這個動議,到時候發生什麼?檢復職昨天在部長班是給的"},{"start":4360.373,"end":4370,"text":"對 修正動議通過條例是有問題嗎?對 它這個原來的14、15現在我們這次有修正改了是就不行了洗防法 你們看那是用這個單本嗎?對對對華語是在證實 他說我們是司法的啊 他們是內政的啊"},{"start":4383.91,"end":4384.671,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4404.056,"end":4404.516,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4425.659,"end":4426.74,"text":"一、本院內政委員"},{"start":4453.337,"end":4453.978,"text":"投票結果"},{"start":4937.932,"end":4938.233,"text":"第44條條文"},{"start":4950.6,"end":4974.066,"text":"我們法務部次長說條文內容有關洗錢防治法之條次有變更因此44條我們就照本席所提出的修正動議通過我們手上大家都有花了吧好大家有沒有意見"},{"start":4975.445,"end":4982.25,"text":"沒意見我們就照修正條文通過我們繼續處理互代決議互代決議的議案請我們議事人員先讀一下"},{"start":4995.438,"end":5022.533,"text":"本法公布施行後一年相關機關應就第20條規定之時行程效及實務運作情形擬具報告到院必供本院委員評估是否再行修正提案人委員牛許廷等五人宣布完畢謝謝各位委員有沒有意見沒意見我們就照牛許廷委員的修正動議通過現在要補充宣告我們審查通過的不再決定第二項"},{"start":5025.97,"end":5050.445,"text":"現在我們審查通過的附帶結議第二項有關我們後段新台幣一千萬元配合法條的更正為五百萬元一併宣告修正OK嗎?好 謝謝我們到修正動議通過"},{"start":5052.172,"end":5052.372,"text":"先讀協商結論"},{"start":5067.078,"end":5093.784,"text":"宣讀立法院朝野黨團協商結論時間113年6月18日上午9時15分至10時14分地點紅樓302會議室協商主題併案審查行政院函請審議、台灣民眾黨黨團及委員陳亭妃等16人分別擬具〈詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案〉二、委員何欣純等21人擬具〉詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案協商結論一"},{"start":5096.893,"end":5118.4,"text":"協商通過關五一照行政院提案通過者為第五十七條,照協商條文通過為第二十條、第四十四條、第四十九條如復見。二、保留條文第八條、第十一條、第十二條、第十三條,送院會處理。三、通過互待決議一項。"},{"start":5120.305,"end":5143.549,"text":"通過互代決議兩項,是其遭審查結果通過。五、條文調適引述條文之文字及相關法制用於授權主席及醫生院整理。宣讀完畢。好,各位委員有沒有意見?好,沒意見。好,謝謝。那我們都照我們協商的結論通過。謝謝。"},{"start":5152.516,"end":5154.217,"text":"主席主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}