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勸導沒聽啊 勸導沒聽啦 你們如果走開所以北省國民運代表就查證罪所以不是你聽我說 台北市的市長可以不用走沒有啦 現在就是這樣就是說他這個來走是用勸導 他沒有跟沒有啦 那個職業行政署是用警告喔 他的走就要有警告 命令解散 叫他制止啦"},{"start":135.572,"end":139.175,"text":"因為勸導也不會形成法律上的效果,不會做處罰啦我當然知道不會處罰什麼,我只是要告訴你,因為不要讓我們的警察當年為難啦"},{"start":162.878,"end":168.001,"text":"我們要一窮一條邊,同樣的道路,同樣的法律去走不會因為沒有同樣的地方,又沒有同樣的做法因為我們說實在,之前也看到我們台北市的市長,你們的做法跟他現在,尤其他站的地方,不是不能進去的地方"},{"start":190.506,"end":193.711,"text":"如果像你們這樣說的話,是人家未來還要選舉,如果愛家愛戶要去拜訪的,都要去申請喔!因為拜訪的本身的好選人,跟他本身的志工這樣走,都不是五六的啦!"},{"start":207.11,"end":210.772,"text":"師父,我是要跟你說,因為這個社會的禍害,我也認同說,如果太大聲插到人,應該是要去勸導,這我認同,可是不要讓百姓認為說,跟做官可以這樣,跟我們百姓去站的地方,不是管制的,不是不能入的,那是人性道,"},{"start":234.582,"end":237.164,"text":"因為我認為我們要做我們警察後面的護盾 不能讓他為難在這裡面 我也知道你們負上的辛苦 黃牛配合也要找人 運動裁券也要找人 現在什麼醫療"},{"start":255.698,"end":265.388,"text":"的票券還沒找,我要來請教我們的單位醫療票券是什麼來回答一下"},{"start":274.764,"end":276.465,"text":"衛生福利部代表衛生福利部代表衛生福利部代表"},{"start":304.604,"end":307.045,"text":"比較像是我委託你用我的名字對嘛 現在我就是要跟你們說醫療的票券的薪我為了這件我還自己騎摩托車去大堅北省看因為有很多醫生他如果說過不來但是他有現場說限制20個去看"},{"start":326.053,"end":327.134,"text":"要不然我去看,我又跳在他們門口早上六七點不去的時候不是他們走,不然他們如果要看"},{"start":337.244,"end":339.185,"text":"還有什麼戴掛號,那要再拿健保卡給他在當場的因為以前,是不是我們會去抽嗎?譬如二十個、二十個多在那裡嘛現在是該,你要抽的時候就要有健保卡"},{"start":357.728,"end":359.209,"text":"是不是這樣?因為我認為每一個單位都一樣做得不好,我們就依照一個單位去改善好事"},{"start":372.739,"end":375.5,"text":"因為本市在這裡也覺得說你這個醫療的票券的錢會讓人產生什麼什麼的有的醫美一個十張可以送兩張跟幾張可以也有可能是這樣所以在這個報酬報案的裡面部長我就是要跟你說我們非常辛苦像荒遊票"},{"start":401.77,"end":403.491,"text":"要聽NCV啦,我們也要合作啦,前面這兩天,前面我們又收過了,在文化部也收過了那個運動票券,我們也在教育部收過了,是不好的,我們要在專法裡面,怎麼處理"},{"start":425.043,"end":429.345,"text":"沒說實在,最近的演唱會,如果沒有這兩天大家的發表、大家的手法,有這麼多人可以買我們的問題是出在哪裡?有時候我真的買,但是臨時我都沒辦法去看沒辦法去看的當中,我會自己上網去買這要如何處理?這也是有的,沒錯"},{"start":452.973,"end":454.694,"text":"所以我們是應該讓不好的、我們想不好的繼續處理才對可以讓百姓認為這個黃牛票是非常惡質,這我認同但是在這兩天的端端,我們的黨人有想過才對你看現在,包括張學友來,包括什麼人"},{"start":478.393,"end":482.859,"text":"一定是很好,但是很好的當中,我們有需要再去文化部,要如何讓它轉化,繼續讓它加強下去,這才是最重要的"},{"start":493.433,"end":498.577,"text":"是 感謝委員的指導啦法律本來因為都有檢討到整整的空間但是我也很認同說它有這個目的事業主管機關包括文化部或是教育部他們有定專化在後我們站在近景上面是幫他協助但是你現在如果所有的部門都轉播到關上社會秩序維護法有時候會變成好像往後退那因為有精進的空間啦"},{"start":520.593,"end":540.161,"text":"最近這兩年因為有專法的關係其實處置上反而好一點所以我是覺得說不要再回來我們這個社會秩序維護法所以我們才會很主張說是不是社違法它有三年才剛剛開始適用三年讓它有一定的穩定性那我們有一些需要精進的空間我們會提供給目的失業主管機關來做參考"},{"start":541.522,"end":554.794,"text":"那委員剛有垂詢到有關於個別的就是警員在用集會遊行法對於這個舉牌的這個制止的部分那我想我們在這段期間裡面的處置就是說第一個他有沒有違反交通啦不要動了交通"},{"start":557.176,"end":568.424,"text":"因為極有法它有比較嚴格一點點的限制盡量不要用這樣的方式造成比較多的困擾但是我們要非常謝謝警員他一定是有其他的一個顧慮會認為說用極有法來做制止的這個動作或做其他的勸導的方向這個我們永遠有檢討的空間也是一樣所有的這些聚眾活動都有一定的法源基礎"},{"start":582.253,"end":596.43,"text":"那法源基礎呢請我們的警員在第一線要處理的時候呢他通常都有碰到不同的這個適用上面的困擾那但是我們都會用這個比較法律上面能夠橫平的觀點來看待那請委員能夠多多指教"},{"start":599.594,"end":603.935,"text":"好,感謝補充會的回答啦,在這,我們是覺得說,我們有法,要好好去質詢啦,要去執行例啦,不然有法定在那,我們不去做,不去執行例,這樣就不好了啦,以上"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":417,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時56分）主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：王委員好。"],["王委員美惠：部長，我覺得今天要討論的社會秩序法是包山包海，什麼都要做、什麼都要去協助，在這個過程當中，本席想要來跟你探討一下，星期一的時候，本席說你做得不錯、表現不錯，讓衝突可以降低很多，結果在這幾天的時候，有一個吳欣岱，他在人行道走路，一邊宣導他的理念、他的想法，結果沒想到才幾個人而已，警察就拿一支牌子說他違反秩序法，結果在這個過程當中，我所了解的，包括署長也好、部長也好，我覺得應該是不要因人而異啦！因為全臺灣的警察非常的辛苦，不過在這個過程當中，難道他有違法嗎？看是部長要回答，還是署長來回答。"],["劉部長世芳：我先請署長來回答。"],["王委員美惠：好，署長來。"],["張署長榮興：4月22日早上八點多，有110通報在金湖路有團體使用擴音器妨礙安寧，它是一個妨礙安寧，結果我們的同事去處理的時候，發現有人在那邊演講，那他有勸導……"],["王委員美惠：不聽勸導？"],["張署長榮興：因為不聽勸導，所以他才……"],["王委員美惠：你們讓他舉牌？所以百姓跟民意代表差很多……"],["張署長榮興：不是，你聽我說，地方……"],["王委員美惠：臺北市的市長可以不用舉牌？"],["張署長榮興：沒有，現在就是說……他舉牌是用來勸導的，他沒有跟……集會遊行法是用警告……舉牌包括警告、命令解散跟制止，他是跟他勸導而已，是口頭……讓他看到這個牌子，然後勸導，因為勸導也不會形成法律上的效果，就是不會做處罰。"],["王委員美惠：署長，我當然知道不會處罰，我只是要跟你探討說，不要讓我們的警察同仁為難，我們要一條鞭，用一樣的道理、一樣的法律去走，不要一樣的地方有不一樣的做法，因為我們說實在的，之前也有看到臺北市市長的做法，跟他現在……尤其是他站的地方不是不能進去的地方，如果像你們這樣說的話，未來下次要選舉的時候，挨家挨戶去拜訪的人都要去申請，因為去拜訪的候選人跟他的志工就不只5、6個了啦！署長，我要跟你說的是，對於社會的和諧，我也認同如果太大聲吵到人，應該是要去勸導，這我認同，可是不要讓百姓認為說當官的可以這樣，而我們百姓……尤其他站的地方不是管制的地區，不是不能進去的，那是人行道，署長，我覺得我們要做警察後面的後盾，不能讓他們為難。","我知道你們非常的辛苦，黃牛票也要找你們、運動彩券也要找你們，現在什麼醫療的票券也要找你們，我要來請教相關的單位，醫療票券是什麼？回答一下。"],["呂簡任技正念慈：委員好，我是衛生福利部的代表。有關醫療掛號的這個票券，就我們實務上看到的比較像是代掛號，那代掛號這件事情來講，他主要就是把個人資料，譬如我自己的身分證字號，請別人幫我透過網路的方式或者是現場的方式來去代掛，性質上比較像民法上的有償委任，這是第一個，就他行為態樣而言，比較像是我委託你，用我的名義……"],["王委員美惠：對嘛！現在我要跟你們講的醫療票券，我為了這件事，我還自己騎摩托車去大型醫院看，因為有很多醫生如果掛不到號，他現場還有限制20個人可以掛號，不過我去看的時候，我是故意選早上6、7點的時候去看，不是他兒子，不然就是他爸爸要看，哪有什麼代掛號？那個還要當場拿健保卡給他耶！"],["呂簡任技正念慈：對，要資料跟……"],["王委員美惠：因為以前我們去抽號碼，譬如有20個，那就會有20張單子在那裡，現在是改成你們要抽的時候，還要有健保卡，是不是這樣？"],["呂簡任技正念慈：對，是這樣沒錯。"],["王委員美惠：對嘛！我覺得每一個單位都一樣，做得不好，我們就針對那個單位去改進，因為本席覺得你這個醫療票券會讓人「霧嗄嗄」，有的醫美10張可以送2張或幾張，也有可能是這樣的，所以在這些包山包海的事務裡面，部長，我就是要跟你說警察非常的辛苦，像是聽演唱會的黃牛票也要警察去協助。其實上次我們就修過了，文化部也修過了，運動票券教育部也修過了，對於這些不好的我們要在專法裡面去處理，不然說實在的，最近的演唱會如果沒有這兩年大家的努力、大家的修法，就不會有這麼多人可以買到票，我們的問題是出在哪裡？有時候我自己真的有買票，不過臨時我剛好沒辦法去看，沒辦法去看的當中，我會自己上網去賣，這要如何處理？這也是有的耶！"],["劉部長世芳：有。"],["王委員美惠：部長，所以我們應該是這樣，針對不好的，我們沒修到的，我們應該繼續處理才對，還可以讓百姓認為黃牛票非常的惡質，這我認同。不過兩年前的上一屆，我們同仁有修過之後，你看現在包括張學友來，包括什麼人來，一定都是很好的，不過在很好的當中，我們需要再去跟文化部討論專法該如何繼續加強下去，這才是最重要的，部長，你有什麼要回答的？"],["劉部長世芳：感謝委員的指導。法律本來就永遠會有檢討跟精進的空間，但是我也很認同當它的目的事業主管機關，包括文化部或是教育部，他們有訂定專法之後，我們警察會協助他們，但是如果所有的部分現在都全部灌回來社會秩序維護法，有時候就會變成好像往後退……"],["王委員美惠：會亂掉啦！會退步啦！"],["劉部長世芳：有精進的空間，最近這兩年因為有專法的關係，其實處置上反而好一點，我是覺得不要再回來社會秩序維護法，所以我們才會主張社維法才剛剛開始適用三年，是不是讓它有一定的穩定性？有一些需要精進的空間，我們會提供給目的事業主管機關做參考。委員剛剛有垂詢有關個別的警員採用集會遊行法舉牌制止的部分，我們在這段期間的處置就是，第一個，他有沒有違反交通，不要擋到交通。"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["劉部長世芳：因為集遊法有比較嚴格一點點的限制，儘量不要用這樣的方式造成比較多的困擾，但是我們也要非常謝謝警員，他一定是有其他的顧慮，才會認為要用集遊法來做制止的動作或做其他的勸導，這個我們永遠有檢討的空間。同樣地，所有的這些聚眾活動都有一定的法源基礎，我們的警員在第一線要處理的時候，他通常都會碰到適用上不同的困擾，但是我們都會用法律上比較衡平的觀點來看待，請委員能夠多多指教。"],["王委員美惠：好，感謝部長的回答，本席覺得我們有法律，就要好好去執行、要有執行力，不要說已經有訂定法律，但卻不去做、不去執行，這樣就不好了。以上。主席不好意思。"],["主席：沒關係，謝謝王美惠委員的質詢。","下一位我們請張宏陸召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","高金素梅","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","邱志偉","丁學忠"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等24\n人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會\n秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第\n八十九條條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七\n十二條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修\n正草案」案；八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案；十、審查委員顏寬\n恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬\n具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}