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這個是要累死你們警察我來報告一下 你現在修的這個法管確實是比那個專法少所以現在逮到黃牛也不會用設置法來採法 是用那個專法來採啊對啊 所以那個專法 你比方講像文創的那個那個是五十倍的一個法 幾十萬欸"},{"start":204.727,"end":221.275,"text":"那這些你如果增加到那個設置法頂多是增加我看那裡面有增加到三萬多塊你沒辦法是用設置法還是還是用專法來罰署長我就是要問你這個那如果回到這個設置法之後有這個問題"},{"start":224.266,"end":231.513,"text":"那民眾如果報案如果什麼,那你們警察要不要開判?沒辦法用設置法罰,抓到的話還是用專法來處罰沒辦法用設置法處罰你還是要回去原來的專法處罰那所以我就點出了這個不是很奇怪的一個修法嗎?"},{"start":246.068,"end":266.982,"text":"這個真的是多此一舉耶我不知道署長你們整個的看法所以我們看法就是建議不修正建議不修正啦我們看法就是這剛剛部長已經有報告就是這個建議不修正因為你修的話也沒有用啊修的話沒辦法適用啦不是我發現啦齁"},{"start":272.779,"end":293.887,"text":"有看出來這個問題的也不是只有我啊是很多人都有發現了這個問題啊那我們如果這樣子我真的是我覺得啦這個法如果通過齁就是累死你們警察而已全國的警察會痛死啦報告委員通過也沒辦法適用啦通過還是適用專法通過也是"},{"start":295.047,"end":321.365,"text":"擺盜的黃牛還是用專法因為現在沒有用設置法比如想像現在的這個比較前的小巨蛋的演唱會啦或者是大巨蛋的這些的那個棒球啦都分別有這個文創法跟運動賽事的專法在適用這些黃牛都有適用也沒有在適用設置法你設置法再定個再多幾萬兩萬三萬那也沒辦法適用設置法還是適用專法"},{"start":323.154,"end":343.302,"text":"我當然知道是適用做法所以我說是類似你們警察而已啊你們警察也無所適從啊是不是如果大家要就責又說警察這個設置法裡面有你們警察又不處理外界不了解法律的內容沒有錯那是類似你們警察而已啊而且喔你剛講的那些還是部分"},{"start":343.982,"end":364.759,"text":"阿如果噪音防治法咧一樣啊那個狀況是相同的不是喔那個案件可能比演唱會多上千倍上萬倍喔沒有錯那你怎麼處理我們現在的這個狀況大概就是兩個單位就是環保跟警察嘛那現在有一些就是警察的部分現在平常講啦警察到場去處理噪音大概都是只有嵌倒啦"},{"start":367.233,"end":378.942,"text":"那你如果要法的話真正要法都是在噪音管制法的環保單位他有儀器我們警察也沒辦法說透過這個聽這個是屬於噪音或怎樣只是說你這個停止所以這個等於是"},{"start":380.529,"end":398.694,"text":"如果民眾要聽就聽,不聽的話也沒有辦法,因為也沒有這些良策的這一期沒有錯啊,但如果又回到這個法裡面,人才要不要處理?要不要去?要去啊阿對啊,阿你要去又沒辦法辦任何事所以如果說未來,如果要更建立,我也強力建立要在專法裡面去做修訂"},{"start":399.916,"end":426.821,"text":"對啦 從專法 從噪音管制法的專法去做修訂對啦 才辦了涵括全部我舉這幾個例子是說齁如果這樣子齁 這個法今天修了的話齁不僅達不到目的啦累死我們警察弟兄啦而且最主要的是你到時候執法的時候沒有一個標準你會讓警察弟兄被人家罵這個是我擔心的啦 署長"},{"start":427.526,"end":450.051,"text":"目前如果以噪音的這個部分一定是沒有標準因為每個同仁去的聽了到底是不是噪音所以現在的這個裁決大概都是只有勸導我們沒有這些應用設置法來做處罰現在如果真的要開單在地方政府他是環保局派人去量測什麼什麼的然後有車子去那才能夠真正的第一線馬上"},{"start":451.431,"end":478.176,"text":"法啊然後那個警察局是沒有辦法的我舉這個例子是說如果噪音也要警察管你們警察反正我每天都報案都有噪音警察光這個警察就其他事都不用做了啦所以我還是覺得啦這個啊要不要修這個法大家要仔細的想一下我個人也認為修是多此一舉沒有用的啦好謝謝啦"},{"start":480.25,"end":480.271,"text":"好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":448,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時6分）主席……部長已經站在備詢臺了。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["張委員宏陸：我在質詢前想先問，今天各部會有代表的，請先舉手一下。"],["主席：來，各部會。"],["張委員宏陸：各部會的代表，請先舉手一下。好，你看，好多隻手喔！好，請放下。我為什麼要特別先這樣問，你知道嗎？社會秩序維護法牽扯到的部會真的非常多，而且有一些法令各部會其實都有訂專法，都已經在處理了，是不是啊？各部會，你們可以點頭就好。"],["劉部長世芳：我幫他們回應，有啦！"],["張委員宏陸：沒有，我看他們在點頭了。因為各部會其實也也有訂專法在處理，我想請問一下部長或署長，如果這些業務量又回來你們這邊，你們覺得有辦法去處理嗎？"],["張署長榮興：這個沒辦法，剛剛委員也講了，就是包山包海，我覺得特別法已經有規範就是適用特別法，社秩法是一個普通法，所以你現在去執行，也是適用這些特別法，社秩法是一個普通法，如果有不足的話才是適用社秩法。我是覺得真的要讓警察的工作專精，不然包山包海，做每一樣都會做不好。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯，而且如果都回來這裡，不是你們派人出去之後……他如果違反，你們要不要開單？你們還要處理很多後續的行政作業。"],["張署長榮興：對，沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：是不是？"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這個比起你派警員出去，後續的這些文書作業，你反而需要更多的人力吧？"],["張署長榮興：沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯嘛。好，這一次的修法我真的覺得有一點奇怪，你知道嗎？可能各位同仁要思考一下。各部會的專法裡面都有罰款了，我們今天很多的修法，罰款比人家本來罰的都還少，你去訂這個有什麼意義？我不直接講是哪個委員的法案，但明明其他法律裡面罰的錢都比較多，我們今天又來修這一個法，結果還罰的比較少，我不知道這意義何在，這個是要累死你們警察，是不是？"],["張署長榮興：委員，我要報告一下，現在修法的罰款，確實是比專法少，所以現在逮到黃牛也不會用社秩法來裁罰，是用專法來裁。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道啊！"],["張署長榮興：所以專法比如說文創的部分是50倍的處罰，幾十萬欸！這些你如果增加到社秩法，我看那裡面有增加到三萬多塊，那個也沒辦法適用社秩法，還是用專法來罰。"],["張委員宏陸：署長，我就是要問你這個，如果回到社秩法之後有這個問題，民眾如果報案，你們警察要不要罰，要不要開單？"],["張署長榮興：沒辦法用社秩法罰，抓到的話還是用專法來處罰。"],["張委員宏陸：你還是要回去原來的，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對，要回去原來的專法處罰。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我就點出了修法不是很奇怪嗎？真的是多此一舉欸！我不知道署長你們整個的看法是什麼？"],["張署長榮興：我們的看法就是建議不修正。"],["張委員宏陸：建議不修正啦，我覺得……"],["張署長榮興：我們的看法剛剛部長已經有報告了，就是建議不修正，因為你修的話也沒有用，修的話沒有辦法適用。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，我發現有看出來這個問題的，也不是只有我，很多人都有發現這個問題，我覺得這個法如果通過，就是累死你們警察而已，全國的警察會累死啦！"],["張署長榮興：報告委員，通過也沒辦法適用，通過還是適用專法，通過，逮到的黃牛也還是用專法，因為現在沒有用社秩法，比如現在的小巨蛋演唱會，或者是大巨蛋的棒球賽，都分別有文創法跟運動賽事的專法在適用，這些黃牛都有適用，也沒有在適用社秩法，你社秩法再訂個多幾萬、2萬、3萬，也沒辦法適用社秩法，還是適用專法。"],["張委員宏陸：我當然知道是適用專法，所以我說是累死你們警察而已。"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["張委員宏陸：你們警察也無所適從，是不是？"],["張署長榮興：是，沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：如果大家要究責，又說社秩法裡面有，你們警察不處理，外界不了解法律的內容。"],["張署長榮興：沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：是累死你們警察而已。"],["張署長榮興：是的。"],["張委員宏陸：而且你剛剛講的那些還只是部分，如果是噪音管制法呢？"],["張署長榮興：一樣，那個狀況是相同的。"],["張委員宏陸：不是喔！那個案件可能比演唱會多上千倍、上萬倍。"],["張署長榮興：沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：那你怎麼處理？"],["張署長榮興：現在的狀況，大概就是兩個單位，環保跟警察，現在有一些是警察的部分，憑良心講，警察到場去處理噪音，大概都只有勸導而已。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊。"],["張署長榮興：你如果真正要罰的話，都是在噪音管制法的環保單位，它有儀器，我們警察也沒辦法透過聽就說這個是屬於噪音，只會說請你停止，所以這個等於是民眾要聽就聽，不聽的話也沒有辦法，因為也沒有這些量測的儀器。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯，但如果又回到這個法，你們警察要不要處理？要不要去？"],["張署長榮興：要去。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，要去，但又沒辦法辦任何事。"],["張署長榮興：所以未來如果要更精進，我也強力建議要在專法裡面去做修訂。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！"],["張署長榮興：從專法的噪音管制法去做修訂，才有辦法含括全部。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！我舉這幾個例子的意思是，如果今天修了這個法，不僅達不到目的，還會累死我們警察弟兄，而且最主要的是你到時候執法沒有一個標準，你會讓警察弟兄被人家罵，這個是我擔心的。"],["張署長榮興：目前如果以噪音的這個部分來說，一定是沒有標準，因為每個同仁去，聽的到底是不是噪音……所以現在採取的大概都只有勸導，我們沒有運用社秩法來做處罰。"],["張委員宏陸：現在如果真的要開單，在地方政府是環保局派人去量測什麼的，然後有車子去，才能夠真正的在第一線馬上罰。"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["張委員宏陸：警察去是沒有辦法的，我舉這個例子是說，如果噪音也要警察管，反正每天都有噪音，都報案，光這個警察其他事就都不用做了，所以我還是覺得要不要修這個法大家要仔細地想一下，我個人也認為修是多此一舉，沒有用的，謝謝啦！"],["張署長榮興：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委的質詢。","下一位我們請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-13","speakers":["牛煦庭","高金素梅","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","邱志偉","丁學忠"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等24\n人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會\n秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第\n八十九條條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七\n十二條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修\n正草案」案；八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案；十、審查委員顏寬\n恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬\n具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}