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之前就陳情很多次了也因此呢 行政部門有沒有意識到這個問題 有"},{"start":80.086,"end":106.068,"text":"曾經有意思過 也就是說在2002年的時候 早在23年前行政院的財政改革委員會的結論 我唸給你聽短期措施就是取消橡膠輪胎 平板玻璃 電器 飲料 室內貨物稅短期內 已經過了23年了 取消了沒有"},{"start":107.778,"end":121.225,"text":"雖然我們沒有直接取消但是我們已經配合就是產業政策或者是環保節能這四個都取消了嗎沒有包含像節能電器就是我們今天講的沒有我現在沒有問你節能電器啊你歪樓了市長你很刻意喔你聰明不應該用在這種地方啊"},{"start":128.03,"end":139.166,"text":"取消輪胎 冰板 玻璃 電器 飲料這四個都還在課啊 然後取消經過23年 它是寫短期喔23年還不夠短23年"},{"start":142.61,"end":162.491,"text":"還沒取消你要承認嘛是 項目沒有取消 課稅項目我們確實沒有取消確實就是還在課這四類的貨物稅但是我們也因應就是說配合產業政策的調整我們就另外可是問題是當初寫得很清楚啊短期措施就是要取消這四個沒有取消嘛行政怠惰嘛"},{"start":163.772,"end":173.928,"text":"第二個中長期的部分要把車輛油氣水泥用綠色碎製來取代綠色碎製制定了沒有"},{"start":174.899,"end":200.431,"text":"歷生稅制因為我們現在其實因為我們環境部要課徵碳費所以我們現在現在沒有碳稅只有碳費而且經過23年這個意思是說你這確實有外部成本那也應該課但是不應該用貨物稅來課這就是在23年前行政院財政改革委員會所下的結論經過了23年"},{"start":202.972,"end":222.114,"text":"原封不動連改都沒有改為什麼因為財政部門就是把這個貨物稅把它當成國家的既得利益稅因為你把它當成既得利益稅既然是當成既得利益稅需要改的時候你們連改都沒有改為什麼就是我這個圖表第一個圖表再看一下"},{"start":223.342,"end":228.591,"text":"他的稅金高達最高這幾年的稅金最高高達1831億最低來到1535億也就是說稅收的來源總共有1500到1800之間"},{"start":238.308,"end":251.459,"text":"大塊肥肉很容易徵得的稅源你不願意放棄但是你又行政怠惰你不願意找其他的一個稅源來找到剋稅的正當性財政部二十幾年來就是如此"},{"start":256.072,"end":270.807,"text":"不過委員我們確實是這幾年我們已經配合整個國家產業政策發展的方向我們提供了補償措施好 你有配合沒有配合我再讓你看下一個圖表好了啦心態沒有變作為就沒有變啦你看我統計出來的圖表"},{"start":273.573,"end":279.358,"text":"橡膠輪胎課多少?24億水泥課多少?25億飲料課37億平板玻璃6億油氣59...596億電氣72億車輛853億這是最近的這113年總共課得1613億裡頭的民意從比例上最多的就是車輛跟油氣啦將近九成啦89.889.8"},{"start":299.815,"end":323.805,"text":"因為這以量制計稅這是最方便的而且鎖定在少數的廠商就這個情況來看我們就從2002的這個研究水泥 輪胎 玻璃都是中間跟零件這不是終端產品所以這個不應該輪胎課一次汽車又課一次這當初的稅改的結論2002"},{"start":329.448,"end":355.325,"text":"後來2008的時候 第三次稅改會議的時候又重申一次又講一次但是有沒有改 還是沒有改所以陳情不斷 請願不斷立法院的質詢不斷老實講 我現在也是在重複質詢啊我也是在重複質詢啊但是對象不一樣啊上次部長 這次市長啊但是態度都一樣 堅持不改一毛不拔"},{"start":356.932,"end":371.262,"text":"不會委員 其實我們這幾年都一直在配合產業政策做了相關的調整所以才會有12.1 12.3調整以來 你從看稅收的收入就沒有調整了而且你很誇張了 我再講給你聽你從電器喔 電器類從電視 冰箱 這還是奢侈稅嗎 音響一共9類這早不是奢侈稅了 而且新的3C產品啊 都沒有課到啊"},{"start":381.329,"end":403.037,"text":"還有更誇張了你的飲料類的部分啊嗑的是社產機制的清涼飲料什麼叫清涼飲料不涼了就不用嗑而且呢礦水水不用嗑但是如果水裡頭有添加色素糖香料就要嗑那有添加物不用喔超過這個花生綠豆仙草就不用喔這很奇怪"},{"start":403.817,"end":422.43,"text":"這些瓶瓶一樣是飲料喔手牙也不用課喔機器也就要課喔標準在哪裡不是財政部說了算講來講去啊我說在啦就是錢的問題而已啦你就是不願意放棄這個既得的這個稅收來源啊部長 社長承認吧"},{"start":426.96,"end":448.349,"text":"報緣確實貨物稅是我們國家財政收入的一個很主要的部分那一千六百多億我也承認很重要啦我也沒有叫你不科稅嘛那你來替代稅源欸你的綠色稅制綠色稅制其實我們現在為什麼會有節能家電退稅為什麼會有這個已經經過二十幾年了勒市長我講的這些你都經過嘛是 了解對不對你都很清楚嘛我都經過"},{"start":454.532,"end":481.924,"text":"你都經過嘛結果都沒有做嘛有啦有做有做一點點嘛事實上就是在這邊嘛結果哪有什麼變其實我們這幾年稅收從一千八百多億降下來也是在做這方面的優惠調整好啦你那個皮毛的修改不是真正大刀的闊斧大刀闊斧的轉變貨物稅需要改的你不要等到川普來跟你改啦"},{"start":483.57,"end":507.166,"text":"川普把貨物稅當成非關稅貿易障礙我們內部自己不改還要逼著川普來改或者會逼著在野黨哪一天就像財法法一樣給你突襲一樣在野黨現在多數一定要搞成這樣子嗎或搞到企業界全面的大反彈的時候你才要面對嗎一定要這種被動式的方式嗎"},{"start":508.371,"end":519.517,"text":"對不對而且民間在討論這些問題不是沒有道理我就單純站在一個消費者的角度來看同樣一輛車的錢2000CC以下100萬乘以關稅17.5我們今天討論的是貨物稅我今天就不提關稅貨物稅25%營業稅加5%你看喔"},{"start":531.636,"end":550.868,"text":"你看喔,一輛車就變成154.2萬喔你看,2000cc以上就變164.4喔就多了6成,一個多了14,一個變60喔你如果300萬以上的話,你看又加上一個奢侈稅,夯不啷噹起來就變300萬變529.3萬我算過那個%大概是1.76倍,將近兩倍"},{"start":562.046,"end":572.064,"text":"將近兩倍的這種情況底下你看累積再累積這不是單純的一個關稅的問題而已這對消費者來說是非常的不公平"},{"start":573.37,"end":592.38,"text":"其實這裡針對計算主要是燃油車才適用啦如果是電動車的話貨物稅就是變成零了電車是沒有啦但是我現在跟你argue就是油車嘛這不公平嘛數十年來都沒有轉變嘛調整一下就是大家的消費習慣"},{"start":595.882,"end":620.383,"text":"那個次長最後我就請教你一件事情嘛你就把所有歷年來啊因為我的資料收集也非常有限歷年來幾次的稅改當中你做一個統計你剛剛講說你有改每次的稅改當中所最關於貨物稅的決議的內容當中每一次你把它做一個圖表就這個圖表當中跟現實的轉變有多少我們來做一個檢驗啊請您自己寫啊好不好"},{"start":621.364,"end":648.838,"text":"我會請負稅署來寫好 你請負稅署來寫啊你不要寫 你們不要寫沒關係啊 負稅署寫給我啊是 好 沒問題這長期以來兩個禮拜給我一份嘛可以我們來公布一下到底我們的貨物稅的改革改了什麼改了1% 哪幾個%多少程度兩個禮拜 好不好就歷年來的稅改 針對貨物稅免得如果說你稅改你這個貨物稅真的有改的話今天就不會有七項的人民請願案了啦"},{"start":649.898,"end":664.529,"text":"方委員我們那個兩個禮拜時間可不可以延長為一個月可以嗎你們的那個署長那麼專業三個禮拜啦謝謝啦好 謝謝郭國文委員好 接著我們請你燕秀委員燕秀委員諮詢完畢後我們休息五分鐘謝謝交委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":324,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時25分）謝謝主席，有請李政次。"],["主席（賴委員士葆）：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：郭委員好。"],["郭委員國文：政次好。我拜讀你們今天的書面報告，第一點，簡單的講就是要等到行政院裡頭併案審議。"],["李次長慶華：是，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：第二點是要保留談判的籌碼；第三點是要跟其他的部會進行審慎評估，以這三點來看，是最好現在都不要動、不要變，但是我們談到貨物稅都不要動、不要變，並不是你現在的態度，很久以前就如此；嚴格來說，貨物稅的性質是農業時期的奢侈稅，這你很清楚，在性質上是如此，有一種壓抑消費的作用，可是長年以來，臺灣社會的型態，老早就已經有很大的轉變，以致於很多要修改貨物稅的聲音，甚至要取消。你看今天的陳情案，人民請願案件有7案之多。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["郭委員國文：我相信不是今天陳情而已，之前就陳情很多次，因此行政部門有沒有意識到這個問題？有，曾經有意識過，早在23年前，在2002年的時候，行政院財政改革委員會的結論，我唸給你聽，短期措施是取消橡膠、輪胎、平板玻璃、電器、飲料四類貨物稅，這是指短期內，可是已經過了23年了，取消了沒有？次長。"],["李次長慶華：雖然我們沒有直接取消，但是我們已經配合產業政策或者環保節能做了一些優惠措施的提供……"],["郭委員國文：這四類都取消了嗎？"],["李次長慶華：沒有，包含像節能電器，就是我們今天講的……"],["郭委員國文：沒有，我現在沒有問節能電器，你歪樓了，次長很刻意喔！"],["李次長慶華：剛才委員有講到電器嘛！"],["郭委員國文：你的聰明不應該用在這種地方，取消輪胎、平板、玻璃、電器、飲料，這四類都還在課徵，哪有取消？"],["李次長慶華：對，但是……"],["郭委員國文：經過23年，它寫短期喔！23年還不夠短？還沒取消，妳要承認嘛！"],["李次長慶華：是，我們確實沒有取消課稅項目。"],["郭委員國文：確實就是還在課徵這四類的貨物稅。"],["李次長慶華：但是我們有配合產業政策調整，另外提供租稅優惠措施……"],["郭委員國文：可是問題是當初寫得很清楚，短期措施就要取消這四類，但沒有取消，行政怠惰嘛！第二個中長期的部分，是要把車輛、油氣、水泥以綠色稅制取代，請問綠色稅制制定了沒有？"],["李次長慶華：綠色稅制，因為環境部要課徵碳費，所以我們現在……"],["郭委員國文：現在沒有碳稅，只有碳費啊！而且經過23年，這確實有外部成本，也應該課稅，但是不應該用貨物稅來課，這就是23年前行政院財政改革委員會所下的結論，經過了23年原封不動，連改都沒有改，為什麼？因為財政部門把貨物稅當成國家的既得利益稅，既然是不當的既得利益稅，需要改的時候，妳們連改都沒有改，為什麼？從這圖表顯示，這幾年貨物稅金最高高達1,831億，最低來到1,535億，也就是稅收來源總共有1,500億到1,800億之間，這是一大塊肥肉，很容易徵得的稅源，你們不願意放棄，但是又行政怠惰，不願意找其他的稅源及課稅的正當性，財政部在這二十幾年來都是如此。"],["李次長慶華：委員，我們確實這幾年已經配合整個國家產業政策發展的方向提供了補救措施……"],["郭委員國文：好，你有沒有配合……我再讓你看這個統計圖表，心態沒有變、作為就沒有變。橡膠輪胎課多少？24億；水泥課多少？25億；飲料課37億、平板玻璃課6億、油氣課596億、電器課72億、車輛課853億，這是113年總共課得1,613億，比例上最多的是車輛跟油氣，將近九成，有89.8%，因為以量計稅最方便，而且鎖定在少數的廠商。","從2002年的研究來看，水泥、輪胎、玻璃都是中間原料跟零件，不是終端產品，不應該輪胎課一次，汽車又課一次，是當初2002年稅改的會議結論，後來到2008年第三次稅改會議的時候又重申一次、又講一次，但你們有沒有改？還是沒有改，所以陳情不斷、請願不斷、立法院的質詢不斷，老實講我現在也是在重複質詢，只是對象不一樣，上次是部長，這次是次長，可是態度都一樣，堅持不改，一毛不拔。"],["李次長慶華：郭委員，其實我們這幾年都一直在配合產業政策做了相關的調整，所以才會貨物稅條例第十二條之一、之二、之三……"],["郭委員國文：哪有調整？調整以來，從稅收的收入就知道沒有調整了。"],["李次長慶華：稅收確實是在減少……"],["郭委員國文：而且你們很誇張，我現在唸給你聽，從電器類的電視、冰箱，這還是奢侈品嗎？到音響一共九類，這早就不是奢侈品了，而且新的3C產品都沒有課徵到，還有更誇張的，飲料類的部分是課「設廠機製」的清涼飲料品，什麼叫清涼飲料？不涼的就不用課？而且礦泉水不用課，但是如果水裡頭有添加色素、糖、香料就要課，有添加物的不用喔！像是花生、綠豆及仙草就不用，這很奇怪，一樣都是飲料，手搖飲不用課，結果機器製作的就要課，標準在哪裡？不就是財政部說了算？講來講去，說實在的，就是錢的問題而已，你們就是不願意放棄這個既得稅收來源，次長承認吧！"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，貨物稅確實是我們國家財政收入很主要的部分。"],["郭委員國文：我也承認那一千六百多億很重要。"],["李次長慶華：對，因為……"],["郭委員國文：我也沒有叫你們不課稅，你們的替代稅源呢？綠色稅制呢？"],["李次長慶華：綠色稅制的部分，其實我們現在為什麼會有節能家電退稅？為什麼會有汰舊換新的汽機車退稅？這些都是配合綠色稅制作相關處理。"],["郭委員國文：這已經過二十幾年了，次長，我講的這些你都經歷過嘛！對不對？你都很清楚。"],["李次長慶華：是，了解，我都經歷過。"],["郭委員國文：你都經歷過，結果都沒有做嘛！"],["李次長慶華：有啦！有做努力，有做相關的……"],["郭委員國文：有做一點點嘛！事實就在這邊，結果哪有什麼變？就是最近我們在討論的……"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，其實我們這幾年稅收從一千八百多億降下來也是在做這方面的優惠調整。"],["郭委員國文：好啦！你們那個皮毛的修改，不是真正的大刀闊斧的轉變。"],["李次長慶華：二百多億也不是個小數字。"],["郭委員國文：貨物稅是需要改的，不要等到川普來改，川普把貨物稅當成了非關稅貿易障礙，我們內部自己不改，還要川普逼著來改，或者逼著在野黨哪一天像財劃法一樣來突襲，在野黨現在多數，一定要搞成這樣子嗎？要搞到企業界全面的大反彈的時候，你們才要面對嗎？一定要這種被動式的方式嗎？","民間討論這些問題不是沒有道理，我就單純站在一個消費者的角度來看，同樣一輛進口車的錢，排氣量在2,000CC以下的車輛，100萬元乘以關稅17.5%，我們今天討論的是貨物稅，就不提關稅，貨物稅是25%，再加營業稅5%，一輛車就變成154.2萬元，而2,000CC以上的增加到160.4萬元，多了六成，是20%，一個多54萬元，一個多60萬元，如果是300萬元以上的車再加上奢侈稅這些夯不啷噹的，就從300萬增加到529.3萬元，我算了百分比大概是1.76倍，在將近2倍的情況底下，累積再累積，這不是單純的一個關稅的問題而已，這對消費者來說是非常的不公平！"],["李次長慶華：其實這個計算主要是燃油車才適用，如果是電動車，貨物稅就變成零了，所以我們……"],["郭委員國文：這個我都知道，電車沒有，但我現在跟你argue的就是油車……"],["李次長慶華：所以我們希望配合能源轉型，調整一下大家的消費習慣。"],["郭委員國文：這不公平，數十年來都沒有轉變！次長，最後我就請教你一件事情，因為我的資料蒐集也非常有限，針對歷年來幾次的稅改，請你做一個統計。你剛剛說有改，每次的稅改當中關於貨物稅的決議內容，你都把它做一個圖表，看圖表跟現實的轉變差距有多少，我們來檢驗。請你自己寫，好不好？可不可以？"],["李次長慶華：我會請賦稅署來寫。"],["郭委員國文：好，你請賦稅署來寫，你不要寫，沒關係，請賦稅署寫給我。"],["李次長慶華：沒問題。"],["郭委員國文：這是長期以來的問題，兩個禮拜後給我一份。"],["李次長慶華：可以。"],["郭委員國文：我們來公布一下，到底貨物稅的改革改了什麼？改了幾個百分比、多少程度。"],["李次長慶華：好，我們會整理出來提供給委員檢視。"],["郭委員國文：兩個禮拜，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：好。"],["郭委員國文：就是歷年來的稅改針對貨物稅的部分。如果貨物稅真的有改，今天就不會有7項人民請願案了！"],["李次長慶華：兩個禮拜的時間可不可以延長為一個月？可以嗎？"],["郭委員國文：署長那麼專業，三個禮拜，謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：謝謝郭國文委員。","接著請李彥秀委員。李彥秀委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-9","speakers":["賴士葆","黃珊珊","林德福","林思銘","陳玉珍","王世堅","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","黃建賓","吳秉叡","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","林思銘","羅明才","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」34案：(一) 本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草\n案」案、(二) 本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案、(三) 本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案、 (五) 本院委員魯明哲等\n16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐\n欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、\n委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等\n16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案、(六) 本院委員李坤城等24人\n擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案、(七) 本院\n委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委\n員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19\n人、委員楊瓊瓔等20 人、委員邱鎮軍等24 人、委員萬美玲等18 人、委員廖偉翔等17 人分別擬具\n「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案、(八) 本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例\n第十二條之三條文修正草案」案；二、審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案","agenda_id":"1144001_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}