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10:50:08","會議時間":"2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.15096875,"end":16.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.05784375,"end":20.500343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.26846875,"end":19.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.30221875,"end":19.926593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.95096875,"end":26.676593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.676593750000002,"end":27.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.76909375,"end":33.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.877843750000004,"end":36.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.54409375,"end":38.337218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.97409375,"end":44.024093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.783468750000004,"end":53.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.43596875,"end":58.924718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.034093750000004,"end":76.89659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.82971875,"end":73.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.56784375000001,"end":81.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.79034375,"end":85.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.53284375000001,"end":91.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.75909375,"end":94.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.13846875,"end":100.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.75784375,"end":109.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.83659375,"end":110.15721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.71409375,"end":111.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.73096875,"end":113.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.29159375,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.39284375000001,"end":114.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.64159375000001,"end":116.26596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.26971875000001,"end":122.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.45096875,"end":121.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.32409375,"end":132.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.39159375000001,"end":122.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.79534375,"end":133.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.30971875,"end":139.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.23784375,"end":134.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.09846875,"end":135.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.50284375,"end":143.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.09284375000001,"end":145.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.26534375,"end":148.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.42534375,"end":150.31971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.04534375,"end":152.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.15909375,"end":152.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.55971875,"end":154.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.52159375000002,"end":155.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.32721875000001,"end":167.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.20721875,"end":173.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.09659375,"end":188.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.55159375000002,"end":182.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.38534375,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.95034375,"end":200.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.30346875,"end":201.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.64909375000002,"end":205.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.42909375000002,"end":210.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.91346875000002,"end":215.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.33471875,"end":216.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.60034375,"end":221.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.81971875000002,"end":220.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.35909375000003,"end":223.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.96221875,"end":233.34471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.81346875000003,"end":234.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.16721875000002,"end":235.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.92659375000002,"end":241.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.53409375,"end":236.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.38596875000002,"end":240.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.68096875,"end":242.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.71471875,"end":247.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.67159375000003,"end":254.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.77596875,"end":255.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.82221875000002,"end":257.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.06659375000004,"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我請法務部部長跟調查局的決定麻煩部長 局長委員早老大部長剛才有說到這個失望人數就是犯罪的行為嘛那麼韓國瑜被罷免的時候有一千三百多的失望人數"},{"start":45.004,"end":58.415,"text":"過大明新生的年數 參選總統的時候有5000多個希望的年數最後都沒有 一個沒有進班 一個沒有起訴所以犯罪的行為 但是最後不一定會起訴 就是這樣嘛"},{"start":62.473,"end":78.662,"text":"那個韓國瑜罷免,韓國瑜沒有那麼多人,死亡連署沒有那麼多,他那個應該只有95人有死亡連署的一個情形,但我想這個不起訴詞應該要交代的非常明顯。希望連署有分8個月要辦,90個月不用辦,不用起訴。"},{"start":82.257,"end":99.031,"text":"這個有釐清了喔,這個原來高雄地檢署這部分有釐清所有的案件,我不會去跟你說因為一個就沒辦,還是一個就有辦啦,沒必要我先告訴調查局長齁,我是真的,你有想到中官的姿勢說要嚴辦嗎?沒有沒有啦齁,還是怎麼有開一個世信會議,針對說怎麼行,這連署如果辦了,說有怎麼有專案的獎金有沒有?沒有"},{"start":110.84,"end":123.63,"text":"視訊會議有 但是沒有專欄的獎金沒有獎金就對了沒有沒有所以有比較少有開視訊的會議我們每天都在開視訊會議我們內部的會議經常會有視訊會議所以對於人到你不會說本人比較粗魯 本人比較不粗魯會不會這樣?不會不會不會你本人不會這樣嗎?你放心 絕對不會比較少不會嗎?不會不會你放心現在民間感受到都有啦沒有沒有來"},{"start":139.622,"end":144.811,"text":"我想請教你說有證據蓋在裡面嗎?我請教保證保證你有沒有偵察權?我沒有偵察權你沒有偵察權嗎?"},{"start":153.615,"end":164.12,"text":"警察主動發動對立有犯罪的行為當然他們會是監辦最好他們也是可以報稱檢察官監辦嘛那麼檢察官就有發動監察官檢察官本身有監察官發布保證沒有監察官如果這樣為什麼內政保證可以自費辦案"},{"start":174.505,"end":197.66,"text":"我想內政部長這件事是不是指揮辦案 這個是可以再討論台北市的警察局 台北市的警察局 我不去講我個人我有做什麼事情 我接受法律的制裁 我都沒有意見現在是台北市的警察局 已經說陷阱了陷阱就是他們看過錄影那麼大 什麼人有做什麼行為 要針對某一部分不讓檢測官 陷阱之後"},{"start":202.854,"end":213.701,"text":"內政部長起來說我是羞毛之一他現在還要重新叫統治署叫我去申請我請教這不是政體概念沒有什麼叫做政體概念"},{"start":218.904,"end":233.032,"text":"警察機關已經函餐到地檢宿了他現在講完之後叫我再去甩尾我想眾議院議員絕對不是因為內政部長講小話他要函餐 檢察官可以調查是不是這樣那個司法警察也是屬於偵查的"},{"start":241.756,"end":246.217,"text":"警察局已經對我說他把這個案件陷阱,就是說他已經有看過這個錄影大,什麼人做什麼事情所以才說要陷阱之後,白日內政部長發言之後"},{"start":260.757,"end":275.504,"text":"他還在發動地段來 要求本席去申請 那我沒問題啦你若沒有任何事 你叫我申請 我也沒問題我現在針對這兩個事情的中間 這不是政治概念沒什麼叫政治概念 內閣要解鎖啊 你是不用煩惱啦他是很煩惱的啦 還要叫我來顧他的官位 大家啪話也這樣 我現在正式跟你檢舉"},{"start":287.578,"end":303.19,"text":"補充 內雷箭啦齁 這案件你幫我翻過沒有我沒有偵查權 你跟我 委員跟我檢舉喔沒有啦 過去啦 這過去啦跟我檢舉 因為我沒有授予沒有 我不可以把 我不可以把保護補充檢舉嗎好啦 我公開檢舉啦齁不過我可以把內雷箭轉給局長參考啦 最好 咱海軍發一條24號的一條24號的來龍去脈當然 幸福 負責人家在那邊關啊"},{"start":317.679,"end":323.148,"text":"這條錢怎麼撐的?全省都撒謊,你覺得我站這裡有的沒的?我來試試看,我要正式檢舉這條錢撐出來,有政治人物介入?"},{"start":330.563,"end":348.416,"text":"是不是有人中了魔力我拜託看不看 調查局把過去的檔案拿出來看嘛超清澈 超清澈你不要說抓一個負責人 但輕鬆抓進去關了這件事都沒有真正嚴重的是暗中告解這個人 暗中去問責這個人這件事我是想不想 我所做的事情我一定想想啦"},{"start":360.969,"end":373.521,"text":"今天如果有人親友,在地檢署要送生兒,在這邊去關心也剛好而已但是如果有違反法令,你給我審判,給我遺産,我都接受,甚至我來接受"},{"start":376.124,"end":403.218,"text":"不過 政治力 不能改立啦 沒必要改立這個沒必要 啊 不一定 因為你改立 針對食糧界你就可以顧你法律 內政補充的進步你如果說法律補充這樣這麼清晰 不要擔心有的沒的主人人就把你 你要找人也不敢 你找人啊啊 如果想那種的就對了啦 生機快樂啊 你想說熱情中這樣就可以繼續跟你贏喔"},{"start":405.489,"end":430.592,"text":"剛好就好了,我告訴你老部長,今天你就不來內政委員會,不然我就來這裡感恩了但是我在跟你講的這就是政敵,戒律,公平公正的說法,我一向尊重但是有讓人嫌疑的時候,工作要避嫌他說內政部長,警察一回遊行,我是他主管的,你主管的沒表示你有政策權"},{"start":432.046,"end":435.731,"text":"如果這樣反對會計劃的人 財政補充不就要出來支付一百萬Q處理啊 做到補充了 再等一等不要三百多現費啦 啊啦 幾千戶都三百二不來靠我 大家企劃也一樣 我正確檢紀喔"},{"start":451.28,"end":460.223,"text":"你們都有聽到的,累累賺這個24億雖然清盤了,但過程中,如果元毅再去把東岸拿出來看看,我保證你臨時生活環節還要好,你做法不保重"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":692,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（10時42分）主席，我請法務部長跟調查局局長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、局長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["謝委員龍介：早。部長，剛才講到死亡連署就是犯罪行為，韓國瑜被罷免的時候，有一千三百多個死亡連署，郭台銘先生連署參選總統的時候，有五千多個死亡連署，最後，一個沒有偵辦，一個沒有起訴，所以犯罪行為最後不一定會起訴，是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：罷免韓國瑜的死亡連署沒有那麼多人，那個應該只有95人有死亡連署的情形，我想這個不起訴處分書應該交代的非常清楚。"],["謝委員龍介：如果這樣的話，死亡連署有分一百多個要辦，九十幾個不用辦、不用起訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有釐清了，因為高雄地檢署這部分有釐清了。"],["謝委員龍介：我說給你聽，所有的案件我不會跟你說因為一個就沒有偵辦，還是一個就有偵辦，沒有必要。","請教調查局長，你有受到長官的指示說要嚴辦嗎？"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，為什麼有開一個視訊會議，針對藍營連署如果辦了一樣有專案獎金？有嗎？"],["陳局長白立：視訊會議有，但是沒有專案獎金。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有獎金就對了？"],["陳局長白立：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["謝委員龍介：所以確實有開視訊會議。"],["陳局長白立：我們常常在開視訊會議，我們內部的會議經常會有視訊會議。"],["謝委員龍介：所以對於藍及綠，不會說辦藍比較用力，辦綠比較不用力，會這樣嗎？"],["陳局長白立：不會、不會、不會，委員請放心。"],["謝委員龍介：你辦案不會怎樣嘛？"],["陳局長白立：絕對不會。"],["謝委員龍介：確實不會嘛？"],["陳局長白立：不會、不會、不會，你放心。"],["謝委員龍介：但是現在民間感受到的是都有。"],["陳局長白立：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["謝委員龍介：為什麼我請教你有沒有政治力介入？請教部長，你有偵查權嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有偵查權。"],["謝委員龍介：你沒有偵查權嘛！警察主動發動對有犯罪的行為當然他們會去偵辦，最後他們也是可以報請檢察官偵辦，那麼檢察官就有發動偵查權，檢察官本身有偵查權，法務部長沒有偵查權，如果這樣為什麼內政部長可以指揮辦案？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想內政部長這件是不是指揮辦案，這個可以再討論，我想這個是立法委員在質詢的時候……"],["謝委員龍介：來，我跟你說，臺北市的警察局……我不會去說我的個案，我有做什麼事情，我接受法律的制裁，我都沒意見。現在是說臺北市的警察局已經函送了，他們看過錄影帶，誰有做什麼行為，要針對哪一部分報給檢察官，函送之後，內政部長竟然說我是首謀之一，他現在還要重新寄通知書叫我再去說明，請教這不是政治介入，不然什麼叫作政治介入？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我也請……"],["謝委員龍介：一個警察機關已經函送到地檢署了，他現在講了之後，才叫我再去說明……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想中正一分局絕對不是因為內政部長講什麼話，他才會去……絕對不是這樣。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，他要函送，檢察官可以調我，是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：司法警察也是屬於有偵查權的。"],["謝委員龍介：你聽不懂，警察局已經對外說他把這個案件函送，他已經有看過錄影帶，誰做了什麼事情，所以他函送，星期一內政部長發言之後，他又再發通知單來，要求本席去說明，那個我沒問題啦！你如果沒函送，你叫我說明，我也沒問題，我現在就針對這兩件事情的中間，這不是政治介入，不然什麼叫作政治介入？內閣要改組了，你不用煩惱，他是很煩惱的，要藉我來顧他的官位，大家拚看看，我現在正式跟你檢舉，部長，獵雷艦這個案件你辦過嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是，我沒有偵查權，委員向我檢舉……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，這是過去的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我沒有……"],["謝委員龍介：我不能向法務部長檢舉嗎？好啦！我公開檢舉。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不過我可以將委員這件轉給檢察機關參考。"],["謝委員龍介：獵軍艦最後海軍發一筆24億的來龍去脈，當然慶富的負責人被抓進去關了，這筆錢怎麼請的？全身都是蝨子，你跟我在這裡有的沒的，就來試試看，我正式檢舉，這筆錢請出去有政治人物介入，是不是有人從中謀利？我拜託法務部調查局把過去的檔案再拿出來看，把它查清楚，不要說抓一個負責人，陳慶男抓進去關了，這件事就沒有了，真正嚴重的是暗中勾結的這些人、暗中運作的這些人，要來偵辦我是首謀，我所做的事情我一定承受，今天如果有人的親友在地檢署要被聲押質問，去關心也是剛好而已，但是如果有違反法令，你偵辦我、移送我，我都接受，甚至我來自首，不過政治力不可以介入，沒必要，介入這個沒必要，也不一定因為你介入，針對謝龍介，你就能夠顧你內政部長的職務，你如果像法務部長這樣清廉，不要在那邊有的沒的，自然你要走，人家也捨不得你走。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["謝委員龍介：如果像那種節外生枝的，你以為賴清德這樣就可以繼續用你嗎？剛好而已，我跟你說，劉部長，我今天沒有去內政委員會，不然我就去那邊問他，但是我要跟你說這就是政治介入。公平、公正的司法我一向尊重，但是有嫌疑的時候，君子要避嫌。內政部長說警察、集會遊行法是他主管的，你主管的不表示你有偵查權，如果這樣，犯會計法的人，財政部長不就要出來指揮辦案？豈有此理！做到部長了，還在那裡……不要三八又假賢慧啦！如果全身都是蝨子，要來抓我，大家試試看，我正式檢舉了，你們都有聽到，獵雷艦24億雖然偵辦完了，抓去關了，但是過程中，調查局如果願意再去把那些檔案拿出來看看，我保證你馬上升官，說不定到最後換你當法務部長。"],["主席：下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}