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有請我們法務部部長好 請部長中選會好 中選會"},{"start":21.335,"end":49.673,"text":"委員早部長早還有我們中選會列席的一個官員今天我們召委排這個題目我倒覺得非常好非常好很多事情可以把它給講清楚但重點針對這一次我看全國各地好多地方在大罷免罷免憲法賦予老百姓這樣的一個權利憲法賦予老百姓的一個權利"},{"start":50.653,"end":59.596,"text":"但是如果是犯罪的話那反而也是法律可以我們整個主管機關他要主動依法偵辦的這樣的一個責任在民主它並不是一個道具你說死人他當然是不能去連署那造假完以後再去裝傻這個就有點莫名其妙了我看現在有這麼多的一個連署案的一個"},{"start":76.901,"end":96.069,"text":"造假案然後也已經我看現在幾件告發了41件41件告發了有的涉及到偽造甚至有的不乏出現冒用往生者簽名的荒謬的這樣的一個情節那我想本案最主要的一個發生的一個理由我相信"},{"start":99.395,"end":127.498,"text":"國民黨的委員在國民黨裡面多數比我們多了一席那再加台灣民眾黨那變成在國會就是多數那在政治攻防上到最後大家認為說老百姓受不了啦他想去發動這樣的一個罷免那當然是可以的是憲法賦予他的一個權利但是呢這個案子是怎麼來的呢大家再回想一下本案的一個癥結下一張我看一下就是說本來啊"},{"start":128.632,"end":136.379,"text":"在2025年3月17號的時候你看這個各大媒體就給你下個標尷尬了罷免案35比0國民黨慘被KO癥結啊整個社會會這麼紛亂就是從這邊來"},{"start":145.441,"end":151.605,"text":"你本來要發動罷免 中國國民黨你都懶惰嘛你可以罷免啊當初我在這個地方我就警告過囉我說要發動大罷免到最後就會變成一個大告發這個跟公投案不太一樣公投案是大家成案以後大家來投來表達你自己的一個主張有人去抄抄抄抄都很有可能可是你這個罷免案涉及到一個國會議員的政治生命的一個生死他當然跟你拼了你用偽造的一個方式他當然要給你告發"},{"start":176.294,"end":187.77,"text":"那在3月17號啊我看罷免案35比0 國民黨慘被KO以後呢國民黨在整個內部炸鍋了有要求朱立倫下台了 說你已經輸了三次了"},{"start":188.68,"end":208.131,"text":"然後呢 這個國民黨的戰鬥欄的你看這個趙少康先生就說以霸制霸行動已經化為笑話了這當然都是業餘你這個朱立倫嘛甚至張雅中講說大罷免的戰略錯誤朱延長任期幾個月也沒有用國民黨自己內部的壓力炸鍋以後呢無所不用其極啊無所不用其極啊我跟部長報告以我們現在台東來看的話"},{"start":218.494,"end":220.703,"text":"這種造假現在還在發生啊我們台東啊"},{"start":223.388,"end":244.714,"text":"從長濱到成功然後在整個海岸線因為有廠商要去設置這個風電他就必須要先上環境部網站裡面去做一個預告然後呢我們台東所有的立委全部都跳出來反對跳出來反對喔那有人就很聰明就假借說反對風電然後拿出來就是連署書簽下去簽下去這就是連署罷免不是要簽反風電"},{"start":249.375,"end":270.619,"text":"所以這個罷免裡面啊 這個千奇百怪 無所不用其極我記得我禮拜一舉過例子啊 就是說我們在整個刑法第210條 偽造文書這個部分五年以下有嫉妒刑 對不對那刑法第277條 那傷害罪 就拿刀在街上這樣砍人連續砍 我舉的例子說連續砍五個"},{"start":273.649,"end":277.773,"text":"再砍下去檢察官就受不了啦你要預防性當然到就會把他給羈押嘛這個都很合理嘛我再舉這個很淺顯的例子那你這種集團性的 你說一直讓你去偽造一直讓你去偽造 一直去偽造然後檢察官就說 啊我沒看見反正這政黨的事那我們要這個法律幹什麼所以我倒認為啊"},{"start":296.199,"end":307.369,"text":"這個冤有頭債有主啊中國國民黨到現在還沒有反省啊什麼到衝了別檢以後還有檢察官辦人賴清德下台你說什麼笑的"},{"start":308.956,"end":321.165,"text":"你們都說這個中國國民黨這麼多人去偽造利用要罷免一個人自己懶惰不用工亂抄死人也抄進去應該是講說政黨的負責人下台這樣才對又不是賴清德下令說叫你中國國民黨就趕快用偽造的一個方式所以本席都認為這樣的法務部這一次一個偵辦"},{"start":333.564,"end":352.908,"text":"不是說你們的職責所在,是你們不得不辦不對,你看看,你可以不辦這個是已經告發了一定要辦了嗎是啊,而且喔,還公訴罪咧他這個是,因為委員也是立法院中事,所以最近才修了選罷法九十八條之二嘛"},{"start":353.368,"end":369.153,"text":"要遏止這種造假的這些不好的不法的行為更明確嘛然後就才不會腐蝕民主政治的根基嘛道也未必131條講的是在講說新舊法的適用的問題啦你說如果是98條之二的話那個過程要件跟214條過程要件那又不一樣囉"},{"start":378.275,"end":383.877,"text":"那個選罷法98條之後的那個構成要件裡面那幾乎已經選罷法都已經變成危險犯了那個自身損害那個都全部拿掉了那可是呢 這因為在319之前這個案子就全部都適用舊法所以你當然要回歸到整個這整個刑法210條的一個規定還是用舊法嘛這個我就不在這邊做一個論斷但問題你們想想看啦我說這個問題嚴重性在什麼地方"},{"start":404.426,"end":431.67,"text":"我們二十年前把連續犯我們以前在讀書的時候還有連續犯連續犯加重其刑二分之一後來大家就認為修法就認為好像在鼓勵犯罪可是重點是你像這樣這種情況今天偽造個十份明天再偽造個十份後天再偽造個十份一直這樣偽造下去我們連續犯已經刪掉了二十年前已經刪掉了"},{"start":433.356,"end":459.356,"text":"我保證我不是這樣說你說通通不用判這也好奇怪啊當然你說到最後有基督刑你說是15年最多加重只能到20年多數訴罪兵法了不起判到30年宣告30年可是重點是說這個對社會上來講的話如果我連續這樣不斷的去犯罪然後只是因為政黨不反省到最後大家把整個隊伍拉到北檢來這也好奇怪"},{"start":461.994,"end":490.384,"text":"這也好奇怪,所以我請教中選會,中選會,好不好辦,就他們的管理一定要辦,是,地費你全部都刪除掉,我們要修憲,說人都不能罷免,斬草除根,不然就偽造文書的部分,全部都要抬掉,不可能嘛,不可能嘛,你們現在以現在來所謂的個案,是不是像各地建築都市裡面去告發?"},{"start":492.018,"end":510.652,"text":"我們是統一向最高檢去告發統一向最高檢告發 對你如果是原住民的部分 我要特別來請教原住民他是全國的全國的 那你們到底要向哪一個地檢來告發我們也是向最高檢向最高檢喔 是是那裏面你們最高檢要怎麼發"},{"start":512.469,"end":533.65,"text":"那個最高檢就把依照那個管轄權的那個就發交給各地檢署來偵辦因為那個最高檢是一個統合他是一個督導的一個督導的機關他是選罷的案件的督導機關所以他受理的他接到這些就會分給各地檢署可是幾乎每一個每一個各地檢署全部都有管轄權啊"},{"start":534.611,"end":557.902,"text":"因為它那個原住民的話你全國各縣市都有這部分它會由最高檢測最屬於管轄因素最多的地方來做一個管轄那就合理了 那就合理了那今天我請問警政署有沒有來警政署 啊 不好意思 警政署沒有來沒有來我就繼續問補廠 你有來來來來來補廠也看一看你給他看 我給你看一下這個"},{"start":565.779,"end":574.439,"text":"這個是 你們都有看嘛 那個豬肋龍我都長大了 我也看了幾十年了這都熟悉熟悉 平常不熟 剛才那個做布袋的 這些都弄回去"},{"start":576.564,"end":596.342,"text":"我才會這樣 跑去北檢 警方七度舉牌那我們現在就是說 我們只要這種違法的集會遊行 倒也不是馬上就宣告他違法我們會警告他嘛 說你解散 解散就沒問題如果不是 我把你三次舉牌 命令你解散沒有 你就犯罪了 感謝你說"},{"start":599.512,"end":614.943,"text":"包委員 這個部分可以由現場的指揮官 按照現場的狀況來判斷是啦 留給你們一個判斷的空間是好事嘛 畢竟衝擊到整個社會秩序嘛那我再來看一下內府的 你們這是在走什麼啊這幾個人而已 你們自己走 你們的行為違法"},{"start":622.375,"end":631.539,"text":"這樣是什麼意思 我就看不懂我就不曉得你們那個執法執法我們都一定尊重現場現場的指揮官但問題像這一種現在是"},{"start":635.014,"end":660.797,"text":"引起不必要的一個民怨那依法行政跟依法執法這當然都是公務體系的一個基本的一個原則啦那但是呢 我們是不是也應該去盤點喔就像整個全國集會遊行的一個執法的一個SOP啦你針對這些非禁制區本來在法院 在地檢署各法院這是法律明文規定 這是不可以讓集會遊行的喔"},{"start":663.349,"end":687.555,"text":"這個案子因為一線的同仁 這個比較沒有經驗那這個部分警政署我們會來檢討 也會就以後相關的執法來訂出一個標準之後 然後也來做教育我要說的就是說像這種不是禁制區 靜態的小規模的你應該更要去研擬一致性的舉牌或者介入的一個標準你們這些都訓練到不夠清楚啦 但是你還縮長帶長的"},{"start":690.256,"end":708.685,"text":"這個就讓我覺得很莫名其妙除非那個地方是一個交通繁忙的一個要塞的地方說好多人要去上班啊你們在這個地方喊罷免影響到整個交通了我這個時候我如果警察沒有適度的去介入的話那反而是失職啊可是這就很明顯的你會覺得莫名其妙他如果站在店館這裡你就去放他照就好你就走一個白海大廈大廢周章我認為這個要檢討"},{"start":719.911,"end":741.264,"text":"這個部分警政署會 我們會來做指引啦 我不認為那個所長這樣的起心動念是不對啦有人檢舉了嘛 因為我沒來了之後大家說全部都偏袒這些反對國民黨的人 這也不對執法當然要有一個一致性嘛 可是你這個有點讓人家感覺莫名其妙 死的人在那"},{"start":745.112,"end":765.502,"text":"你這樣去就叫他解散 委員會遊行你在地檢署 人們走走的 因為他比較大咖比較大咖 這另外的一個考量也沒有不對不想讓他產生那麼大的社會的衝擊 可以接受跟兩鄉做比較的話 只要叫你走到後 會把你抓了啦這個我覺得要有一定的一個指引 好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時50分）謝謝召委，有請法務部部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有中選會。"],["主席：好，中選會。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長早，還有中選會列席的官員。今天召委排這個題目，我倒覺得非常好，很多事情可以把它給講清楚，但重點是針對這一次，我看全國各地好多地方在大罷免，罷免是憲法賦予老百姓的一個權利，但如果是犯罪的話，反而法律課以主管機關要主動依法偵辦這樣的責任。民主並不是一個道具，死人當然是不能去連署，造假完以後再去裝傻，這就有點莫名其妙了，現在有這麼多連署案的造假案，我看現在有幾件告發了，41件嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：41件。"],["莊委員瑞雄：41件告發了，有的涉及偽造，甚至不乏出現冒用往生者簽名的荒謬情節。我想本案最主要發生的原因是，國民黨的委員在立法院裡面多數，比我們多了一席，再加上台灣民眾黨，在國會就變成是多數，在政治攻防上，到最後大家認為老百姓受不了了，他想去發動罷免，那當然是可以的，是憲法賦予的權利，但是這個案子是怎麼來的呢？大家再回想一下本案的癥結，本來在2025年3月17號的時候，你看各大媒體就下標「尷尬！罷免案35：0！國民黨慘被KO」，整個社會會這麼紛亂就是從這邊來，你本來要發動罷免中國國民黨，你就懶惰嘛！你可以罷免啊，當初我在這個地方就警告過了，我說要發動大罷免，到最後就會變成大告發。這跟公投案不太一樣，公投案是成案以後，大家來投，來表達你自己的主張，有人去抄、抄、抄、抄，都很有可能；可是罷免案涉及一個國會議員政治生命的生死，他當然跟你拚了，你用偽造的方式，他當然要告發你。在3月17號，我看罷免案35比0，國民黨慘被KO以後，國民黨整個內部炸鍋了，有要求朱立倫下臺的，說他已經輸了3次了，然後國民黨戰鬥藍的趙少康先生就說以罷制罷行動已經化為笑話，這當然都是揶揄你朱立倫嘛；甚至張亞中說大罷免的戰略錯誤，朱延長任期幾個月也沒有用。國民黨自己內部的壓力炸鍋以後，無所不用其極，無所不用其極！","我跟部長報告，以我們現在臺東來看，這種造假現在還在發生，我們臺東從長濱到成功，整個海岸線，因為廠商要去設置風電，它就必須要先上環境部網站預告，我們臺東所有的立委全部都跳出來反對，有人就很聰明，就假借反對風電，然後拿出來就是連署書，跟他們說簽下去、簽下去，這就是連署罷免，而不是要簽反風電。所以在罷免活動裡面的現象千奇百怪，無所不用其極。我記得我禮拜一舉過例子，在刑法第二百一十條偽造文書的部分是規定五年以下有期徒刑；刑法第二百七十七條傷害罪，拿刀在街上這樣砍人，我舉的例子是連續砍5個，再砍下去，檢察官就受不了了，要預防當然就會把他給羈押，這都很合理，我就舉這個很淺顯的例子。那這種集團性的，你說一直讓你去偽造，一直讓你去偽造、一直去偽造，然後檢察官說我沒看見，反正這是政黨的事，那我們要這個法律幹什麼？","所以我倒認為冤有頭、債有主，中國國民黨到現在還沒有反省，衝了北檢以後，檢察官辦人，他們還說什麼賴清德下臺，說那什麼瘋話？為什麼不說中國國民黨這麼多人去偽造，要罷免一個人，自己懶惰、不用功、亂抄，死人也抄進去，應該是說政黨的負責人下臺，這樣才對，又不是賴清德下令，叫你中國國民黨趕快去用偽造的方式。所以本席認為法務部這一次偵辦，不是說你們的職責所在，你們是不得不辦。部長，以你的看法，你們可以不辦嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這已經告發了，一定要辦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊，而且這還是公訴罪。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為立法院也很重視，最近才修了選罷法第九十八條之二，就是要遏止這種造假的、這些不好的、不法的行為，更明確，才不會腐蝕民主政治的根基。"],["莊委員瑞雄：倒也未必，第一百三十一條是在說新舊法的適用問題，你如果說是第九十八條之二的話，那個構成要件跟第二百一十條的構成要件又不一樣了，選罷法第九十八條之二的構成要件，幾乎在選罷法裡面都已經變成危險犯了，「致生損害」都全部拿掉了。可是因為在319之前，這些案子全部都適用舊法，所以當然要回歸刑法第二百一十條的規定，還是用舊法，這個部分我就不在這邊論斷。你們想想看，我說這個問題嚴重性在什麼地方？20年前，我們以前在讀書、在當律師的時候還有連續犯的規定，連續犯是加重其刑二分之一，後來大家修法時就認為這好像在鼓勵犯罪，但重點是，像這種情況，今天偽造個10份，明天再偽造個10份，後天再偽造個10份，一直這樣偽造下去，連續犯的規定在20年前已經刪掉了，部長，不是這樣說嗎？如果說通通不用辦，這也好奇怪，到最後如果有期徒刑是15年，最多加重只能到20年，數罪併罰也了不起判到30年、宣告30年。但重點是，對社會上來講，如果連續這樣不斷去犯罪，只因為政黨不反省，大家把整個隊伍拉到你們北檢來，這也好奇怪。","我請教中選會，法務部辦，是他們的權力，一定要辦，除非全部都把它刪除掉，我們修憲說人都不能罷免，斬草除根，不然就是偽造文書的部分全部都把它刪掉，這不可能嘛！以現在所謂的個案，是不是都是你們向各地檢署去告發？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：我們是統一向最高檢去告發。"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果是原住民的部分，我要特別來請教，原住民是全國選區的，你們到底要向哪一個地檢告發？"],["唐專門委員效鈞：我們也是向最高檢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，這樣最高檢要怎麼處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：最高檢就依照管轄權發交給各地檢署偵辦，因為最高檢是一個統合、督導的機關，是選罷案件的督導機關，所以它受理、接到這些就會分給各地檢署來辦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可是幾乎各地檢署全部都有管轄權，因為原住民的話是全國各縣市都有。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分會由最高檢擇管轄因素最多的地方管轄。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那就合理了。","請問警政署今天有來嗎？不好意思，警政署沒有來，我就繼續問部長。喔！你有來，來、來、來，部長也看一下，我給你看一下這個，朱立倫……我在政壇也看幾十年了，這些都是大家認識也都面熟的，剛才那個做布袋戲的謝龍介不知道跑到哪裡去了，差不多這樣，他們跑去北檢，警方7度舉牌。現在就是說，對於這種違法的集會遊行，倒也不是馬上就宣告他們違法，我們會警告他們，並告知他們要解散，如果他們解散就沒事了，如果不解散就會舉牌3次，命令他們解散，如果沒有解散，那就犯罪了，是不是這樣？"],["范組長織坤：報告委員，這個部分可以由現場的指揮官按照現場的狀況來判斷。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦，留給你們一個判斷的空間是好事嘛，畢竟衝擊到整個社會秩序。我們再來看一下內湖的例子，你們這是在舉怎樣的？這才幾個人而已，你們就去跟他們說這樣的行為違法，這樣是什麼意思，我看不懂，我就不曉得你們執法的標準為何。對於執法，我們一定都是尊重現場的指揮官，但問題像這一種，實在是引起不必要的民怨。","依法行政跟依法執法當然都是公務體系的一個基本原則，但我們是不是也應該要去盤點全國集會遊行執法的SOP？針對這些非禁制區，本來在法院、地檢署、各法院，法律明文規定這裡不讓民眾集會遊行，是不是這樣？"],["范組長織坤：關於這個案子，一線的同仁比較沒有經驗，這個部分我們警政署會檢討，也會就爾後相關的執法訂出一個標準並且教育。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要說的是，像這種不是禁制區，靜態的、小規模的，你更應該去研擬一致性的舉牌或者介入標準。你們這些都訓練得不夠清楚，這是所長帶隊去的，這個就讓我覺得很莫名其妙，除非那裡是一個交通繁忙、要塞的地方，有很多人要去上班，你們在這個地方喊罷免，影響到整個交通，這個時候如果警察沒有適度去介入的話，那反而是失職，可是這個就很明顯的，你會覺得很莫名其妙，他如果是站在上面這裡，你去勸他走就好了，結果你就舉一個牌子、大費周章，我認為這個要檢討。"],["范組長織坤：這個部分我們警政署會檢討。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們要有一個指引啦！我不認為那個所長這樣起心動念是不對的，有人檢舉了，如果他沒去，等一下有人可能會說，全部都偏袒這些反對國民黨的人，這也不對，執法當然要有一致性，可是你這個作法有點讓人家感覺莫名其妙，4個人在那裡，你這樣去叫他解散、認為違反集會遊行的規定，而他在地檢署號召人，因為他比較大咖，比較大咖就做另外的考量也沒有不對，不想讓他產生那麼大的社會衝擊，這個可以接受，可是兩相比較的話，這些被你舉牌的人就會罵你們了。這個部分我覺得要有一定的指引，好不好？謝謝。"],["范組長織坤：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}