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陳振芬教授"},{"start":2153.306,"end":2180.05,"text":"國立臺灣大學公共衛生學院健康政策與管理研究所陳雅美教授臺灣外籍工作者發展協會徐瑞熙理事長國立中山大學管理學院張恆彥助理教授臺灣失能者家庭暨看護雇主"},{"start":2180.703,"end":2189.529,"text":"國際協會童文勛童文勛執行長中華民國就業服務商業同業公會全國聯合會林益生秘書長再補充介紹介紹我們今天與會的勞動部政務次長王安邦次長"},{"start":2208.171,"end":2208.631,"text":"社會及家庭屬："},{"start":2231.144,"end":2235.309,"text":"副副副副副副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":2257.403,"end":2274.649,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位學者專家、團體代表還有與會的媒體先進大家早安以下由勞動部來針對《就業服務法》裡面家庭外籍看護聘僱制來做現況的報告第一個部分依據內政部護政司的統計截至113年3月底"},{"start":2278.086,"end":2305.744,"text":"目前我國80歲以上的人口人數大約是91萬那依照資料顯示目前使用長照服務的失能失智還有使用家庭看護移工為使用長照服務者另外包括入住住宿室機構服務總計大概有38.1萬人目前有被照顧的需求那其中又依據衛福部的統計資料80歲以上的失能率約莫是41.7%"},{"start":2308.566,"end":2336.435,"text":"以此來推估目前五國80歲以上處於健康與假健康的長者大約人數是53萬人第二個部分也來跟大會報告依據我們目前從去年10月到今年初到今年為止我們開放了多元認定評估的方式來簡化了申請的程序其中有三項符合資格的包括使用長照服務"},{"start":2337.996,"end":2353.252,"text":"連續6個月以上還有是輕度失智另外我們也增加了擴大重度呼吸障礙、中度吞嚥障礙、中度特定身心障礙等項目共計14項那截至今年的4月為止"},{"start":2353.932,"end":2368.354,"text":"我們有做了一個統計的數據我們在整體申請的人數有6.2萬人其中80歲以上大概是4.2萬人推估數"},{"start":2369.335,"end":2395.632,"text":"那整體來說大概有2.3萬是使用多元免品那有1.9萬是透過病證及私人診斷書包含巴氏量表的評估來申請家事移工所以大體上來講從去年10月到現在80歲以上的長者使用這兩軌制的評估大約約莫是一半一半的比例那我們相信因為多元評估剛上路"},{"start":2396.152,"end":2424.431,"text":"未來在走這個多元評估的人數應該會增加第三個部分那因為在政策進行了8個月之後我們也發現其實有一部分的也適合可以採用多元評估所以我們預計在今年9月來修正相關的法規包含80歲以上且有長期就醫紀錄失能不可逆的特定病症"},{"start":2425.031,"end":2446.513,"text":"同時包括偏遠地區醫療診所長期就醫紀錄的失能者我們預計可以受惠的人數再增加5.5萬本部對於目前整體來說在這個家庭聘僱看護工的制度上面我們也有在考慮在除了增加民眾的便利性之外"},{"start":2448.155,"end":2468.972,"text":"如果依照目前有些各界有提出希望依照年齡來全面免聘這件事情那我們也有我們的擔憂與顧慮第一個首先就是目前在臺灣的外籍移工人數大概是21萬人那依我剛剛還跟各位報告的我們現在如果整體"},{"start":2469.773,"end":2469.793,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2488.59,"end":2506.287,"text":"重症者他在這個市場上裡面他必須要去尋找家庭看護工的過程裡面會造成有他的困難第二個部分也就是說這樣子是不是會造成這個真正有需要的人他其實會有困難"},{"start":2507.088,"end":2507.808,"text":"好 謝謝王次長的報告 接下來請衛福部代表報告 時間5分鐘"},{"start":2539.683,"end":2558.043,"text":"主席還有我們未還的委員還有我們今天邀請來的這些學者專家跟民間團體那衛福部今天就就業服務法家庭外籍看護聘僱制度這樣的一個探討的公聽會那我們就是提出一些看法那也"},{"start":2558.744,"end":2587.302,"text":"就叫各位那首先其實就誠如剛剛勞動部次長這邊的報告那依據這個內政部的到今年3月的統計18歲以上的是有91萬多人那扣除已經在我們使用長照體系這邊有得到還有這個聘僱外刊的自行照顧的我們預估還有將近六成大概53萬還具有行動能力跟社會參與能力那我們是覺得說"},{"start":2588.283,"end":2588.303,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2603.769,"end":2603.789,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2625.106,"end":2625.346,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2646.701,"end":2672.183,"text":"那當然我們國人習慣還是在熟悉的這個社區來中老所以才會衍生這個有聘僱外刊一對一的照顧需求那如果在申請外刊只以年齡為評估而不考慮這樣的一個照顧需求在相關的這個國際人權公約的狀態的保障下其實外刊他本來就有選擇工作的權利所以有可能就會挑選比較容易照顧的個案"},{"start":2673.724,"end":2689.633,"text":"加上現在的這個世界各國也都是有缺工那外看人力有限會排擠恐怕會排擠到我們真正有照顧需要跟重度失能的的照顧者的家庭的這個申請那第三是我們也想說"},{"start":2690.253,"end":2690.273,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2711.19,"end":2731.301,"text":"不論他的年齡家屬都可以向地方政府來提出申請那由勞動部這邊公告的860家的醫療機構可以來執行倒載進行專業評估來降低失能者移動這個不便性那也因為也就是找他的熟悉的家庭的醫師來評估所以也會降低這樣的疫病衝突"},{"start":2732.602,"end":2732.622,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2752.333,"end":2776.535,"text":"出示相關的證明文件我們就視同名下沒有聘僱外刊可以申請所有的長照服務來幫助家庭能夠紓解外刊不在的照顧壓力第5部分是我們為了鼓勵優秀的外刊留才9任已經在臺灣工作6年以上的外刊或取得我國副學士學位的僑外生都可以由僱主來申請轉任為中階技術人員"},{"start":2778.937,"end":2793.37,"text":"依據勞動部這邊提供的數據目前這個家庭的這個外籍看護類的中階技術人力已經有了一萬六千多人那我們現在也會規劃將這一類的人員如果通過我們的國台語聽說能力測驗"},{"start":2796.092,"end":2796.853,"text":"醫療跟長照的整合服務以上報告"},{"start":2829.514,"end":2840.692,"text":"本次會議部會及學者專家所提供的相關書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":2842.732,"end":2869.924,"text":"與會人員發言前先宣告以下事項學者專家及本院委員發言每位發言時間6分鐘那位簡報方便學者專家發言請至主席台右邊的發言台原則上由學者專家先行依簽到順序發言委員如要發言請到主席台登記原則上學者專家兩位之後再由登記委員發言"},{"start":2871.384,"end":2895.923,"text":"全部人員發言結束後再請行政機關做整體回應暫定10點30分休息10分鐘好那現在請登記第一位請登記第一位臺灣看護僱主國際協會執行長童文勳童執行長發言那委員可以到前面登記"},{"start":2904.454,"end":2931.583,"text":"主席各位先生大家好我代表僱主協會發言市民家庭其實在聘僱移工的時候他是一個弱弱聘僱那我們一直強調這一點就是說不可以把他們當作是跟公司跟企業一樣來看待然後給他們強加非常多的責任那我們其實目標非常的明確所有的僱主只有一個要求就是重症不能成為跳板"},{"start":2932.841,"end":2933.061,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2948.675,"end":2974.086,"text":"最重要的原因是因為各行各業缺工應該要去根治各行各業缺工的問題而不是每次我們就是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳這不能夠徹底解決問題再來應該要縮短因為立法或者是各種原因造成的照護的空窗期那這個空窗期包括我們的法規的限制就是說一定要一進一出"},{"start":2975.026,"end":3003.179,"text":"我曾經要求過是不是可以體諒體會當有重症家庭的空窗期發生的時候非常的痛苦甚至有的人必須要辭工去專心照顧家人那將來他自己年老之後他將會是另外一個社會問題所以這個空窗期可不可以不要是嚴格的限制有八十兩表的這些家庭是一定要一進一出他不見得同時要僱用兩個人可是當他要轉換"},{"start":3004.991,"end":3007.112,"text":"提高照護品質應該要把這些家庭的看護納入衛福部所建立的一個長照制度的一個訓練跟聘務的規範裡面"},{"start":3028.041,"end":3056.437,"text":"然後失能者家庭聘用移工是萬不得已的他不是我們今天要找人然後來伺候來享樂不是是萬不得已的而且沒有一般外界所說的這麼的嚴重我們從移民署他所說的逃工的這個完整的數字來看現在在家庭類的在去年度他的逃逸的情況不過就是1.8%也就是說100個看護工裡面才有1.8人"},{"start":3058.041,"end":3084.639,"text":"是陶藝的那就這個部分我們可以知道也是符合我們所有的家屬的經驗就是其實牢固的關係是相當和諧的沒有什麼台灣是一個虐待移工的國家這些誇張的說法我覺得是我們必須要去正視的數字會說話就讓數字說話然後陶藝移工不只是國家安全的問題上次我們有提大聲"},{"start":3085.868,"end":3101.473,"text":"被一個逃逸的移工撞死這個問題就知道沒有保險保障的他開車也沒有保障也沒有第三責任險沒有保障的這些總共在外面有8萬多個逃逸的移工事實上是社會的不定時炸彈這個問題必須要解決所以呢我們認為幾個解決的基本的問題我們大概如列了16項"},{"start":3111.305,"end":3111.445,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":3142.028,"end":3170.639,"text":"我們今天不代表他們說話但是有很多的旅館業因為他的他的房務員缺工可是不知道為什麼政府就是不給他們然後我們現在實際上的失業的人口總數也不過大概是16萬上下平均所有的每個縣市的人口大概每100個人只有一個人你有辦法再去重新安頓他的工作所以不要說臺灣人不做沒有這回事因為臺灣沒有人力了所有人都各就各位在工作上"},{"start":3171.579,"end":3171.739,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3191.499,"end":3200.927,"text":"既然所有的人都是拿巴士量表進來的就僱主家庭來說他們是拿巴士量表進來的必須要先去市場上招募"},{"start":3202.065,"end":3226.462,"text":"是已經沒有人要應聘這個工作所以才引人進來的所以他們根本沒有搶走臺灣人的就業機會既然如此不應該對這些人再去刻意就業安定基金因為他沒有妨礙到任何的人的就業機會好那再來巴士量表應該是福利的給予而不是我們今天對於他能不能聘僱移工的資格的審查"},{"start":3227.779,"end":3240.009,"text":"好然後今天我們知道說可能要討論我們的救福法是不是把現在已經失聯的或者說有一些已經在待業中的這些移工是不是可以變成是一個"},{"start":3241.192,"end":3257.799,"text":"好,好像是,呃,直接把這些人拿來用,去補足長照的這個問題,如果是這樣的話,我們其實就業服務法要改的東西太多了,他們完全不符合現在就業服務法的相關的規定,好,是不是時間已經到了,還有是不是,好,那"},{"start":3262.674,"end":3264.315,"text":"臺灣大學健康政策與管理研究所陳雅美教授"},{"start":3291.577,"end":3296.063,"text":"大家早安我是陳雅美今天很高興有這個機會來跟大家分享我對於外籍看護聘僱制度探討的一些想法然後因為我是學界但最喜歡就是從文獻開始看但從"},{"start":3305.762,"end":3309.364,"text":"要看這三個提綱我建議大家應該先想一個重點是我們要看2070年我們的高齡人口根據國發會的推估我們會來到43.65%我們期待那時候的臺灣社會會是什麼的樣態我一直想不出來即使我是教高齡我教長照其實那樣的社會樣態我也想不太出來不過最近我買了Chad GPT"},{"start":3330.891,"end":3332.232,"text":"所以我請他幫我畫畫看43.65%臺灣的社會陽台可能會是什麼樣子跟大家分享他給我這個圖其實看起來非常的溫馨非常的有活力"},{"start":3346.847,"end":3350.934,"text":"其實我在看這樣的圖的時候他在做圖在那邊轉的時候我很擔心那時候會不會我看到一個Church GPT畫出很多老人家都是外籍看護牽著推著的一個街道的畫面"},{"start":3362.819,"end":3368.582,"text":"很高興我們看到還是一個很有活力的畫面我就想說那我是不是應該近看一點我叫他給我一張近照近照其實還是給我很有活力長者可以彼此互相互相幫忙互相照顧是一個有活力的社會我對這樣的社會我覺得開始有期待就是我教高齡其實自己想到2017年的時候我原本會很焦慮但是這樣的社會我可以期待但是大家看到這樣子的一個社會基本的要素是什麼"},{"start":3391.812,"end":3411.623,"text":"致老年人的活力跟自主性所以我們今天在思考外籍看護的一個政策的時候其實臺灣我們已經有很多對於重症的失能者他的家庭照顧者的需要有法規可以讓這一些"},{"start":3412.304,"end":3419.05,"text":"人可以申請到我們輕度的高齡的85歲以上的長者只要非常輕度的失能95分的巴士量表真的是非常容易他們可以很容易拚得到外籍看護所以今天如果針對我們今天討論其實在講是80歲健康的老年人我們是不是應該要幫他們給他們這樣的一個機會但是我想從這樣的角度上來去思考應該是"},{"start":3442.062,"end":3447.024,"text":"我們覺得該不該外籍看護進來他們對健康的老年人大概是做兩件事剛剛主席也有提到一個就是陪伴另外一個我想很重要的是很多家庭想要的家務所以我們如果給了這樣子的機會開了這樣的大門我想要提醒大家的是對健康的老年人我這邊沒有在講失能老年人對健康的老年人他們的健康是不是好的從文獻上看"},{"start":3471.315,"end":3474.819,"text":"無論是西方東方都是一樣家務時間的總量其實跟老年人的健康是有幫忙的是有正向的關係甚至加拿大的團隊他們也發現家務時間越多的長輩他的大腦輝子其實是體積是越大"},{"start":3488.093,"end":3503.492,"text":"大腦輝子其實是大腦功能功能的一個展現越大當然是越好那亞洲呢我們就想說這個是西方國家我們亞洲呢亞洲我就再多花了一些力氣多收集了一些從新加坡中國香港台灣"},{"start":3505.373,"end":3530.883,"text":"資訊非常的一致我們都是看到家務活動跟長輩的功能是有正相關的他會功能比較好他的認知功能比較特別在注意力記憶力的方面那長期的追蹤研究甚至顯現可以下降衰弱跟前衰的發生女性甚至可以下降41%的全死因死亡率54%的心血管疾病的死亡率"},{"start":3532.349,"end":3533.331,"text":"那我們也可以提升老人的步態步態速度可以更好最近的BMJ很有名台灣不是全世界知名的期刊都認為"},{"start":3545.063,"end":3545.083,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3562.709,"end":3562.849,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3585.437,"end":3594.922,"text":"整體估計感情感性的估計感會稍低一些但是他的社交性孤獨是沒有關係的什麼叫做社交性這什麼意思情感性孤獨就是這個人有一個人他情感可以去寄託在他身上社交性孤獨是我們一般比較在意的這個人的有意義的社會網絡他的連結是如何但是所以外籍看護在這個部分上他是沒有辦法幫忙"},{"start":3611.879,"end":3614.865,"text":"機制在下面,請大家就可以自己看,我想都很容易理解"},{"start":3615.993,"end":3620.636,"text":"所以根據這樣子的文獻國際上的這麼已經非常多的文獻我們應該要思考的是我們今天做政策對健康的老年應該是以健康老化為目標而不是是就是他們要什麼我們就給他們什麼我們應該為台灣2070年去思考我們應該把資源集中在真的重症、失能、有家庭照顧有家庭照顧需求的而且特別要提醒"},{"start":3642.37,"end":3645.833,"text":"我們的研究團隊顯示外籍看護其實近來還有13個月的學期曲線在這13個月內照顧的老年人會有比較高的死亡風險跟住院的風險那對於這個申請程序我想這可以結合很多現代研究的顯示居家醫療、健康、文件站、衛生所都可以幫忙這個整個申請程序這應該是蠻容易的"},{"start":3669.332,"end":3678.935,"text":"那最後一點我很快的跟大家分享外籍看護的是其實這樣子的模式跟國外在長照講的是consumer direct這個模式是認為雇主他其實是在這個領域裡面的專家他知道怎麼叫外籍看護來告訴來教他我要的照顧是什麼這種consumer direct的先決條件應該是雇主要先自己受訓所以第三個我要提出的是"},{"start":3694.887,"end":3710.833,"text":"顧主應該要受訓學習怎麼做外刊的神隊友下面這篇文獻是外刊的研究說I can't do this alone所以顧主受訓了之後他會比較容易知道我有哪些長照的資源像是居家服務居家服務不行居家醫療居家護理還有居家婦男這些其實他怎麼結合起來幫助外籍看護做他的神隊友謝謝大家"},{"start":3723.237,"end":3723.678,"text":"好 謝謝陳教授的發言接下來請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":3737.321,"end":3754.134,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員還有在座的專家學者教授們大家好今天針對就業服務家庭外籍看護聘僱制度的探討本席有幾點看法還有建議首先呢根據統計111年臺灣國人的平均移民已經跌落到79.84歲低於80歲相較前年下降了1.02歲因此我們可以看到"},{"start":3766.003,"end":3783.652,"text":"在這樣的健保體制之下我們國人目前的危機是並沒有過得更健康而且我們的平均餘命是越來越短再來我們的不健康存活的年數大約是落在7.56到8.5年其中主因癌症5年的存活率"},{"start":3790.031,"end":3790.051,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3820.231,"end":3836.388,"text":"多數的家庭已經變成新型態的小家庭所以他們也必須要減少更多照顧長者以及照顧下面的子女的負擔內政部最新的統計2023年平均每戶人口"},{"start":3839.251,"end":3839.271,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3863.079,"end":3865.661,"text":"實在是很難撐過臺灣照護歷程的平均8年那臺灣的長照杯歌我們也會在新聞看到常常令人家很心酸將有可能會繼續發生而且越來越頻繁"},{"start":3879.671,"end":3905.116,"text":"所以綜合上面所述的在國民黨去年這個競選的時候提出80歲以上的長者無需巴士良保可以直接聘請外籍看護的相關修法其實當時各位各黨總統候選人都有共識也曾提出不同的放寬巴士良保的政見賴總統當時有說過"},{"start":3909.037,"end":3909.057,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3935.888,"end":3963.061,"text":"這個聘僱外籍看護的申請標準如果單單只是作為相關的輔助的衡量的標準這個是可行可是如果把它當作申請的標準這個在第一線醫護人員的眼中因為我們也是常常出生基層所以看到許許多多科別的醫師護理師為了巴士糧表與病人造成許多的糾紛"},{"start":3964.562,"end":3978.813,"text":"那除了浪費我們醫療的行政人力以外還造成病友跟家屬不斷的在往返醫院還有近幾年因為申請巴士糧表引起引發了多起很不必要的醫療糾紛然後包括與醫師啊"},{"start":3983.114,"end":3983.554,"text":"臺灣目前的需求大幅的"},{"start":3998.49,"end":4021.749,"text":"提升這是國內很多人民內部的需求和聲音但許許多多的專家學者當然都有提到逃逸的移工還有缺工等等的問題這個也是本席長期非常關心的這些問題都是移工政策的不足還有管理的缺失所導致我們不要不希望在這樣子的議題上倒果為因"},{"start":4024.511,"end":4025.192,"text":"創造我們國家更多的前進的動力謝謝大家"},{"start":4055.421,"end":4058.884,"text":"主席還有各位先進相關部會學者專家大家好我想我們今天談的議題"},{"start":4093.242,"end":4114.456,"text":"我想它是一個老議題從1992年到現在其實外籍看護工的這個經歷了六次的部分那主要當然就兩個嘛一個就是疾病的嚴重程度失能程度調整那另外一個就是由醫事人員來負責評估的工作那在這樣的一個過程當中不好意思我一直沒有很順可以幫我嗎下一頁"},{"start":4115.871,"end":4134.347,"text":"那這個當然我們必須承認那在去年8個月前大家已經都討論過了就是巴士亮表他原來的目的就不是在用來做外籍看護工的這件事情不好意思"},{"start":4151.738,"end":4166.415,"text":"那所以其實對醫生來講剛剛陳靜蕙醫師起手特別談對醫生來講他就很難在診間去評估一個病人在非自然情境因為我們知道所謂的巴斯量表上一頁巴斯量表裡面他就會遇到的狀況是請問你可不可以自己吃飯"},{"start":4167.997,"end":4176.502,"text":"吃飯這件事情如果在我們的長照評估裡面還是要在現場去觀察然後他家裡的擺設等等但我們今天要討論的是臺灣歷經從1992年到整個這麼多年來的時候是一個社會學習"},{"start":4183.447,"end":4205.526,"text":"我們其實就會回來在社會學裡面我們討論聘移工如果被認為是一個解決照顧議題的唯一或甚至國家或立院的主張的時候其實我們會遇到一個蠻大的一個議題的困境是那因為我們當然我們相較於日本跟韓國我們是沒有語言的要求我們也沒有照顧技巧的"},{"start":4207.468,"end":4211.072,"text":"認證所以坦白講我們現在來講是相對還是比較可以請到人的我想媒體還是會問這個問題但是他進來了之後遇到的問題是我們的僱主卻還是希望他是可以溝通的他是具有品質的"},{"start":4223.707,"end":4245.527,"text":"所以這樣子一個牢固在照顧情境裡面常常發生的緊張是我們在長照的現場裡面一直遇到的困境所以下一頁的部分那剛剛陳雅美老師就在談面對一個超高齡的社會我們大家都一直在講那我們到底在擔心什麼我們可以做什麼面對一個老年世代跟成年子女世代下一頁"},{"start":4246.721,"end":4265.147,"text":"所以資深的公民他們其實一直在談我不想成為孩子的負擔那那個負擔其實有兩個一個是時間的負擔一個是經濟上的負擔那還有居住安排業是選擇我想剛剛委員也談到其實我們現在同住家戶則2.53人的部分所以下一頁的部分"},{"start":4266.147,"end":4292.073,"text":"所以我們提出來的解決方案往下所以其實我們可以很輕輕其實國建署等等衛福部等等相關單位都有其實歐盟其實早就提出來什麼叫活躍老化它其實就會回來我們面對勞動力的不足像剛剛談的防務其實防務裡面其實勞動部的另外的其實有鼓勵中高齡投入防務可是是因為雇主仍然期待一人多工所以你訓練了防務員"},{"start":4293.513,"end":4300.177,"text":"他破完床了之後我們知道大家住宿的經驗你這個10點要退房3點只能退check in所以你房務其實是集中時短可是僱主仍然習慣是我騙了一個人我還是要他支援餐飲我還是要他支援其他"},{"start":4312.405,"end":4332.922,"text":"所以我們在就業的部分怎麼隨著中高齡的部分做改變才是一個議題然後更重要的是我們的支持性的環境社會參與的部分才能維持我們的長輩持續的獨立健康跟安全那我想民眾黨的無稱成員也一直在呼籲壯世代這是我們一直都希望的一件事情好往下"},{"start":4334.249,"end":4357.143,"text":"所以這裡我們就回來臺灣其實早就已經跟上世界的潮流提出了TAAI就臺灣其實在這件事情上透過各式各樣的方法希望我們的長輩可以維持不要有嚴重的身體失能可以不要有這個認知失能不要有憂鬱剛剛陳亞美老師其實都有提到下一頁所以當我們最擔心是什麼獨居不是"},{"start":4358.124,"end":4359.245,"text":"我們擔心的是他衰弱生病失能的時候該怎麼辦我們有這三個選項"},{"start":4378.374,"end":4393.74,"text":"但這三個選項最重要的情況下我們要的是什麼這個資源要彈性及時品質跑漲所以我們剛剛就談到嘛其實勞動部跟廠商是一直有努力針對這個空窗期的部分提供了一個這個怎麼樣才可以"},{"start":4396.761,"end":4425.162,"text":"不要再說已經一出出國門的部分而是它只要轉換或等等的時候就只即時處理比如說我們現在的喘息服務其實基本上你的移工短期照顧等等都已經進來了所以其實由家庭一直在強調一對一的聘僱的時候它真的沒有具備這樣的一個品質要素那我想我們檢視長照2.0實際的狀況是等級越高越重症的被照顧的確實它是有下降的"},{"start":4425.862,"end":4432.293,"text":"那為什麼就是我們剛剛談到的因為他需要的密集程度就越高所以但是我們也必須注意到是這678"},{"start":4434.278,"end":4437.34,"text":"其實我們是鞏固既有的傳統教導我們也沒有鼓勵我們當代的老人去做一個活躍老化的部分跟壯世代理念也是背道而馳"},{"start":4462.819,"end":4477.755,"text":"那更重要的 聘一個移工的經濟成本是3萬元我們現在的少子女化最大的問題是我們的年輕人背了房貸 他的可支配所得如果聘了 大家都覺得要聘移工才是孝順那我們可以想像兩件事情"},{"start":4479.316,"end":4495.259,"text":"對老人來講你讓他提早的失能對青年來講他經濟上的一個負擔性的部分所以我們其實才會回來要怎麼鼓勵宅老人到社區打卡應該是新的潮流而不是再一個潮流是所謂孝順就聘義工"},{"start":4496.1,"end":4516.393,"text":"這是我們在談的照顧解方的部分當然持續使用服務的狀況我想勞動部長照師都一直在努力追蹤服務使用的狀況提供滾動式的配套處理特別是大家擔心的突發狀況的夜間服務的部分怎麼樣讓他已經使用長照但他夜間有"},{"start":4517.794,"end":4542.239,"text":"針對現在的移工改變一對一而是變成是他隸屬於公司等等的部分向我們的居家服務來才是一個重要的事情而且不應該他自聘才回來所以我們最大最大的問題是面對日本強人同工同酬加永久居留權我們的本國籍長照服務會備受衝擊我們已經努力了這麼久我們的本國籍的照服員已經往上上升到將近10萬元了"},{"start":4543.999,"end":4558.024,"text":"其實我們非常擔心像長照系各式各樣的部分我們很擔心這樣的一個狀況所以要怎麼降低我們對24小時保護性的部分整合在地服務是一個關鍵所以我們還是要講照顧勞動力是保護資源那剛剛其實都有談到中階移工的薪資跟工作條件我們還是會鼓勵"},{"start":4564.927,"end":4565.588,"text":"陳正芬教授,接下來請臺灣生智政協會陳雲進秘書長發言"},{"start":4591.588,"end":4599.753,"text":"主席各位先進大家好非常榮幸藉由這個機會然後很高興可以代表臺灣施治症家庭來這邊關心這個議題主要的話首先先談談施治症家庭"},{"start":4617.588,"end":4639.999,"text":"因為照顧的特殊性其實我們在聘僱外籍看護的需求是非常高的那其中在照顧跟溝通的挑戰也很大因為我們在認知功能下降大家可以理解在記憶力、判斷力、語言能力的變差會造成我們在互動上面以及生活上面的需要提升那另外在精神症狀最新的流行病學調查裡面"},{"start":4641.619,"end":4668.405,"text":"有6x6以上的失智者在他的病程之中出現精神症狀跟問題行為可能造成有幻想、遊走、焦慮、重複行為跟日夜顛倒等等的狀況所以失智者在他尚未失能的時候就需要長期的安全監視的比例是較高的尤其他們很可能在輕度的時候就有走失交通還有財務安全的風險"},{"start":4670.151,"end":4692.369,"text":"一本會目前直接服務的超過200位個案以上我們有調查了一下有超過三成目前有聘僱外籍看護那同時也結合使用其他的社會資源那在失智家庭在聘僱外籍看護時其實是一個常常處於弱勢的身份那我相信這個稍後許多的民團也會表達這樣的立場"},{"start":4693.63,"end":4722.578,"text":"那尤其因為在照顧的方面比較難去了解失智者的特性跟照顧的方法所以在照顧的時候很容易受挫留任率低使得失智者家庭不斷變換看護那我們在這邊有許多跟這個外籍看護討論的例子或是家庭的經驗其中例如說他說我請伯伯坐著先不要站起來但短期記憶一旦就是喪失了他馬上就站起來就立刻跌倒"},{"start":4723.258,"end":4742.597,"text":"這樣的情形一天兩天持續的不斷發生外籍看護覺得壓力非常大那另外他們自主性很高的狀況下有可能告訴你說我現在就是要開車我現在就是要開車出去我需要駕駛所以在這樣子的議題之下其實會造成照顧上面的一些負荷"},{"start":4743.337,"end":4761.831,"text":"另外外籍看護可能會因為在需要比較高量能的一個照顧模式下會需要有許多時下的一些加薪的行為這樣造成我們的實質家庭需要花更多的費用來去聘僱外籍看護這個其實已經是實務上面常見的樣態"},{"start":4766.092,"end":4795.164,"text":"所以針對這個外籍看護聘僱制度的意見在臺灣施政協會這邊提出以下三點第一點應謹慎的來去評估開放是不是造成供不應求為確保施治症跟其他高度需求的家庭免於排擠免於照顧的排擠尤其不只高齡者才有高度需求在場有其他名團之外年輕型施治者在臺灣也已經超過一萬四千人這些年輕型的家庭他們遇到的是許多"},{"start":4795.704,"end":4814.141,"text":"年長的父母為由擔任他們的照顧者同時他們還有在工作跟其他經濟上面的壓力另外剛剛也提到不是所有的健康長輩都需要高強度的這樣的一個支持那當然如果在這個年齡之上他同時是具有獨老老老照顧等等的高度需求的身份"},{"start":4814.537,"end":4833.949,"text":"我們當然建議他應該也要優先可以被採納有這樣使用的需求另外我們不鼓勵過度依賴外籍看護照顧建議妥善結合運用現有的多元資源包含社區資源來維持自立還有社會互動達到預防及延緩失能失智的目標"},{"start":4834.85,"end":4853.665,"text":"最後建議加強外籍看護及家庭教育的訓練包含語言文化照顧技巧還有協力照顧的合作的部分我們瞭解到這個提案其實利益良善但從實務來看需要很很謹慎的去考慮還有重視確保不造成排擠效應謝謝好謝謝台灣施治政協會陳秘書長的發言接下來請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":4876.495,"end":4894.349,"text":"主席還有各位學者專家還有我們立委同仁還有我們行政同仁大家早台灣現在有請外籍看護就是外勞在家裡照顧的有將近23萬多的家庭23萬幾戶這23萬幾戶"},{"start":4901.147,"end":4926.539,"text":"是有需要現在也在請一個外勞進來他的薪水是兩萬多塊兩萬一兩萬二如果假日他沒有出去還要加薪給他另外一算還要幫他保健保保險還有就業安定費還要管吃管住一個外勞一個月的費用差不多要三萬幾塊可能還要多"},{"start":4930.885,"end":4932.348,"text":"今年差不多要四十萬這二十三萬的家庭今年開的錢定於九百二十億九百二十億喔那這些人不是玩八蛋啊他們不是白癡啊"},{"start":4945.857,"end":4968.691,"text":"這921已經比我們一年的長照用公務預算還多那剛剛師長跟我講台灣在用長照ABC的家庭差不多人差不多都有50出頭萬嘛你多少共50萬嘛他有在用私製的多少剛剛沒有跟我講那這樣他一年的預算我沒有記錯是700多億那這些請外勞的家庭他已經跟我們分攤了900多億啊"},{"start":4975.479,"end":4989.102,"text":"這些家庭：年輕人每天去買經濟：老人家在家了解起來：想輸藥是在陪伴這些老人家第一就是給他照顧日常還有陪伴他24小時最怕的是老人家是怕跌倒因為一個老人家如果跌倒現在骨質疏鬆他就骨折"},{"start":5004.572,"end":5023.479,"text":"開刀、臥床、就疲累了差不多要死了一個骨盆腔或大腿骨骨折我們是外科醫師如果沒有給他開刀他就臥床他動都痛很快就泌尿道感染很快就入床我們有統計活不會超過半年開刀只是固定開刀最重要是固定再來是慢慢復健再來做輪椅等等"},{"start":5033.22,"end":5060.251,"text":"越老的越需要你現在A長照ABC的來是只有來一小時來兩小時看一看就拍拍屁股就走人請問其他的22個小時誰陪他獨居的很多呢我們東港鎮裡面獨居就要多了所以這些是有需求的人他來他當然是有需求沒有在吃飽心有空給他多錢"},{"start":5061.584,"end":5089.043,"text":"那年輕人可以去拚經濟那我說不對所以我跟大家報告也不用講到那麼的嚴重他有需求他去請那以前的巴士量表就是很麻煩剛剛陳清惠醫師有講等一下王振旭醫師他會不會講我不知道我臨床醫師我一天到晚沒人要開就獨來我這裡我就好好評估會不會做假當然會做假"},{"start":5089.997,"end":5102.006,"text":"他來就做倫理來啊表現到最嚴重的程度給你看啊你看到也是那個現在為了要完善還要兩個護理人員一起打溫宿我覺得這個很繁瑣啦然後衛生局的長照小組的再來評估一次等等會覺得讓醫師擔當很大壓力那現在因為"},{"start":5119.138,"end":5126.081,"text":"80歲以上80亮表示55分所以就比較寬鬆以前35分真的是王八蛋訂出來的幾個人可以符合所以這一直在改是好事那在選舉的時候"},{"start":5137.096,"end":5141.498,"text":"我以為他就提出來80歲以上不用納檢報費80歲以上不用巴士量表歡迎很好我們的執政黨馬上跟進馬上開放剛剛次長講的幾項幾項多元評估等等巴拉巴拉的那柯文哲也提了就是說為什麼因為有這個需求性嘛我再講一句另外一句兩萬銅鉤你拚不拚一份啊"},{"start":5165.834,"end":5181.637,"text":"日本是同工同酬啊日本的老人一個月可以拿三萬五千塊的老人給付我們去考察好幾次差三萬五拿到他就去安養中心安養中心四人房就三萬五台幣兩人房就是五萬多塊台幣單人房就七萬多塊台幣這樣要住兩人房你就要擺隊就要自己搭所以日本的安養院"},{"start":5195.56,"end":5199.982,"text":"我去看十間 名古屋啦 大阪啦 八王子區等等都排隊 譬如說一個八王子一個安養院它是可以收370幾個 外面排隊的900多個那請問這些老人在哪裡 就在家裡 就在家裡那日本人又不喜歡出那些嘻嘩嘩老人家啦大媽跳街舞 他們不喜歡 他們都靜靜的在家裡"},{"start":5223.925,"end":5231.313,"text":"所以日本的社工 最主要的事情就是常常靠電話 私立出席一個禮拜 沒人知道在民國有看很多所以每一個族群 有沒有一個族群不一樣 有沒有一個國家不一樣 國群日本人就不敢出來外面 被人欺負"},{"start":5243.055,"end":5248.2,"text":"臺灣人以前可以老人扶 媽媽搬就能出去所以這萬丹你萬丹人 萬丹人就很多所以我要說的就是不一樣 她有訴求的家庭我們有些委員怕她有錢就要叫一些人來陪伴 我想那種的情形不多啦現在她說她的爺爺挑僱主 挑什麼叭啦叭啦的"},{"start":5268.308,"end":5277.195,"text":"那看你跟他的互動好不好嘛 對不對我們老婆已經95歲我們就像看護在照顧我 我覺得很好啊非常好啊所以這就是你家庭自己顧足你自己的心態嘛所以也不要把這個80歲以上免80亮表看得那麼嚴重啦你後面還有配套你的長照小組也可以常常去看嘛我跟你講齁"},{"start":5294.468,"end":5300.63,"text":"你有種的話你政府把這23萬現在拼外勞的家庭都借過去你有沒有辦法沒有人開高保規要開期貿的另外一個來第二張slide我要跟大家報告的大家不要仇視繳稅多的人這對大家的講話很大台灣的家庭戶數662萬戶沒有繳稅的喔沒有繳稅的"},{"start":5325.799,"end":5327.68,"text":"佔了44.16%兩百九十二萬毫沒在交稅一千萬加零數一千萬進所得才一萬一千八百七十六萬負佔總數的0.18%但是這些人呢繳了多少繳了22.6的所得稅那五百萬以上的"},{"start":5351.946,"end":5355.569,"text":"才四萬九千副這兩組人加起來負了四十幾趴的所得稅所以盲點點的籌付我覺得這些人要祝福 鼓勵繼續賺錢 繼續交稅讓我們台灣這幾十幾百人可以得到比較好的照顧而不是一天到晚肉麻一通我跟你講最會罵的就這一組人 最會罵"},{"start":5381.857,"end":5398.389,"text":"拿最多的補助不繳稅然後天天嘩嘩叫天天幹掉人所以這個data很清楚所以大家要珍惜就像美國總統講的這些有錢人繳多一點稅所以國家有貢獻不然每天都要買差不多10年都是這樣所以我對他們非常尊敬希望他們賺多一點繳多一點"},{"start":5410.188,"end":5413.01,"text":"接下來請中華民國家庭照顧者關懷總會陳潔林秘書長發言"},{"start":5447.503,"end":5447.663,"text":"主席"},{"start":5466.477,"end":5486.733,"text":"三年過得很像那為什麼講這件事情我想我首先要表達一個感謝就感謝國民黨在去年的大選的時候其實先先開啟了巴士量表的這件事情巴士量表過去確實太嚴格所以他必須要放鬆他必須要改革甚至他必須要討論要不要有巴士量表要不要"},{"start":5489.355,"end":5502.259,"text":"就改成長照的評估單軌化就好了那這個是需要討論但是呢今天的這件事情其實有一個很後面的後座力正在引發那我先講一下家總是1996年成立到今天28年來我們就是關切一個議題就是家庭照護者的議題那也不好意思好也在這個一直在倡議三件事情不離職照顧"},{"start":5514.182,"end":5517.045,"text":"不必然自己照顧家庭不要失和因為我們即將進入一個零家庭照顧的時代"},{"start":5520.373,"end":5546.543,"text":"那這個主題巴士亮表這個主題其實是有一些思考要想的第一個是到底外籍看護是一個稀缺的資源還是豐沛資源如果等一下看你會發現近年來最多每年增加一萬人所以我們有能力再多增加嗎那如果他是稀缺的他應該優先給誰用是全面開放還是給真的有需求的照顧需求的人用"},{"start":5547.223,"end":5552.808,"text":"還有如果外籍看護都很足夠當然我們可以大大的開放可是我們可不可能搶贏別的國家那如果搶不贏的話會不會變成全台的網內互打就是現在的21.4萬的雇主流動就是舊的這些雇主間流動所以我想有個大前提是要請國民黨提案的這些委員們可能要幫忙思考一下"},{"start":5571.463,"end":5584.792,"text":"我覺得不是不能放寬而是我們稍微停下來用多一點時間來評估這個後座例因為首要是外籍看護工的充足性是很重要的那我有幾張圖表我可以大膽的跟各位說一定會有這個連鎖效應開始有新的僱主說爸媽現在滿80歲就可以聘我找一個來順便可以做家事然後外籍看護有開始同鄉之間開始有留言出現老闆我想去更好的地方因為可以做比較輕鬆的家事工作"},{"start":5600.863,"end":5606.768,"text":"最後影響到舊僱主屏東有630000名現在正在聘的僱主所以蘇委員的選區中也立刻會有這個問題其實長照在這幾年來確實有大幅的增進那他的增進其實也產生了一個現象就是人力比剛剛有幾個數字我就套上一個最新的數字就112年602億在長照外籍看護大概是花到500多億"},{"start":5629.167,"end":5640.15,"text":"到700多億那這個是用一個月兩萬到三萬推估可是你會發現一件事人力比在大缺工時代長照創造了1比4.6的人力比"},{"start":5640.655,"end":5640.995,"text":"外籍看護1比1"},{"start":5666.661,"end":5686.109,"text":"五十三萬健康長輩進場搶工之後會產生什麼問題重度的家庭首當其衝今天等一下會有身障聯盟會有一些自力生活的組織我想這個是真的他們在疫情階段就已經深受其害第二個現在在使用長照服務的人口"},{"start":5686.969,"end":5713.245,"text":"可能都會產生一些問題而動口不動手的話長輩的生活自理能力會不會快速的下降而且看護其實去做家務會不會幫庸化挑案變得更嚴重最後一下原來即便在使用長照的人會不會想一想說還有一個看護回家可以順便做家務還蠻划算的所以他也產生移動等一下我們的居家服務聯盟可能就會講我們對居府員會不會造成衝擊"},{"start":5714.105,"end":5715.165,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":5737.893,"end":5766.673,"text":"因為你造成了一個加碼戰你造成一個加碼戰好真正需要是什麼在這邊加總也要請願其實真的不要巴士量表了他是一個落伍的量表在不同的階段我們需要的是直接長照2.0評估而在不同的評估的定義下譬如說第7級以上困難照顧找不到長照資源我們可以給他聘外籍看護所以應該是用巴士量表那巴士量表為什麼落伍其實在身障裡面就看到111"},{"start":5767.814,"end":5795.009,"text":"一百一十年上路的身障評估他已經從單由醫師的評估改變成一個團隊來評估從身體的障礙類一直到生活類都要所以我想我在這邊總結來講兩件事希望即刻這個政策要先停下來不是說不做可是要先停下來想一想他的衝擊想一想那個衝擊是包含各個委員都會收到來自全國的民怨"},{"start":5795.669,"end":5796.709,"text":"請就業服務商業同業工會全聯會林益生秘書長發言"},{"start":5836.588,"end":5857.526,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好我是那個大概就是仲介工會全聯會的秘書長我今天就簡單就三個提綱直接回答問題直接提供我們的意見就是第一個關於提綱一我們的意見想法是"},{"start":5858.727,"end":5887.451,"text":"無論是哪一類的照顧需求者高齡者癌症患者或重症失能患者需求者同級家人都是主政者的心頭肉所以滿級其照顧需求都一樣是刻不容緩所以站在政府的立場及其戰略高度不是考慮優先把照顧資源給哪一類的需求者而是如何滿足所有人的需求"},{"start":5889.313,"end":5891.021,"text":"目前以本會徵詢會員的那個結論、結果來看"},{"start":5894.625,"end":5920.068,"text":"就是就外籍看護工就印尼看護工家庭看護工輸出來看輸出還算穩定就是每一個個案大概都有十幾張履歷表可以挑選所以尚無缺工之餘長期以來各移工引進國家家庭內的均以幫優模式引進居多只有我國是以看護工為主引進"},{"start":5921.189,"end":5949.398,"text":"如果說大幅鬆綁僱主聘僱資格會影響重症失能家庭之照顧資源那我們國家大部分的家庭被照顧很早以前就找不到移工了我們是無法競爭的其實雖然說外籍照顧資源固然不成問題但是有一個潛在問題必須要被有效解決就是重症家庭引進外籍看護工後常被視為跳板"},{"start":5950.851,"end":5956.76,"text":"然後轉往照顧高齡者就是簡單說是陪伴工作或者是其他工作較輕鬆的案組"},{"start":5959.107,"end":5983.56,"text":"主要是因為目前的轉換雇主規定較為寬鬆我改了這個詞我不想用得太嚴厲移工間有樣學樣因為通訊軟體發達所以假後到修補根本的噪音其實是同仇不同榮所以我們想建請勞動部研議"},{"start":5984.901,"end":6006.015,"text":"不同工不同酬的看護工外籍看護工制度就像是護理之家的住民一樣他會依照其照護需求程度有不同的收費跟費用但是如果不同工不同酬如若實施我們還建議政府給予重症家庭或經濟弱勢者適當的薪資補償"},{"start":6010.178,"end":6026.272,"text":"薪資補助以減輕取等之負擔111年8月10號的時候就業安定基金管理會通過勞動部規劃的家事移工建議調薪方案雇主的心頭痛"},{"start":6028.367,"end":6047.386,"text":"由每月薪資1.7萬元調高至2萬元說調就調OK勞動部同時宣布自當日起新招募引進或期滿續聘轉聘的家事移工適用調薪薪資並同時提供聘僱看護移工的"},{"start":6049.042,"end":6077.742,"text":"低收及中低收或依身心障礙權益保障法領取生活補助之僱主薪資補貼每月三千元最長補貼三年所以薪資補償已有案例可循故見請勞動部延續此方案並將重症或其他照顧需求較高者納入以不同工不同酬"},{"start":6079.645,"end":6086.035,"text":"緩解視重症患者為跳板的這個情況這是我們的第一個建議關於"},{"start":6093.516,"end":6122.012,"text":"提綱2我們一樣直接回答問題就是問題應該大家手上有不重複意見如果問題的關鍵差異是成相差距那關於聘僱申請程序的反映程度並不是最重要的問題一樣都是別人在申請不會是僱主自己申請最重要的問題是成相差距造成聘僱後的管理有所差異"},{"start":6123.693,"end":6152.073,"text":"對比疫情前後引進的外籍看護工現今受聘僱外國人自我意識較高對於自身權益及申訴管道相當熟悉簡單說他們很有能力挑僱主所以外籍看護工跟僱主的磨合期從疫情前的1到3個月延長到普遍延長為6個月或更久"},{"start":6153.495,"end":6177.345,"text":"行政作業本是仲介業者所擅長聘僱或管理如有需求必須一再磨合外籍看護工與重症家庭關係或是24小時待命週抽勞頓前往偏遠地區服務再再揭示仲介業者日常所限針對那個提案3"},{"start":6178.891,"end":6199.95,"text":"我們的意見是解決移工失聯風險調合外籍看護工和長照制度引進及引進外籍看護工前最重要的問題當然是如何解決空窗期的問題能夠第一時間看見僱主的需求或是被照顧的需求有能力處理短期照顧能力派遣"},{"start":6200.97,"end":6229.762,"text":"同時還能妥善管理及照顧外籍看護中自然式人力仲介我簡單的說結論就是我們希望建請勞動部能修改外展看護工的規定遴選一定引進外籍看護工規模、評鑑成績良好或是兩年內無違規的仲介業者準以雇主資格並按其一定期間內引進外籍看護工平均人數合配相當比例的外展"},{"start":6232.152,"end":6246.984,"text":"或能配合長照機構的照護訓練能量制定合理短期照護申請制度及費用標準方可發展出全新的外籍看護工短期照顧模式以上謝謝大家好謝謝就業服務商業同業公會全聯會林益生秘書長的發言接下來請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":6270.15,"end":6293.867,"text":"主席還有我們政府部門還有今天來的專家學者大家好本來我們辦公室問我要不要在公聽會發言因為我說還是來講為什麼今天講的幾乎都是在我們質詢的時候都已經談過了一而再 再而三再談可是還是要來談大家都知道我們現在就是搶工"},{"start":6294.646,"end":6322.414,"text":"不是在國內搶工還跟其他國家去搶工那日本呢事實上從1993年之後他用技能實習的這樣的一個方式然後再配合移民政策然後移工大概高達70萬那今年呢再度的大量演進將近增加到80萬那當然韓國也不遑多讓也就是說他們大概因為採職聘制度呢大概現在已經有160萬人"},{"start":6324.209,"end":6348.272,"text":"那我們如果今天即便台應的MOU簽下去也會先小規模的只增加1000人我相信各位剛剛已經一直在聽到53萬53萬即便53萬的人都不會用的話那大概5萬就好那我們也是造成很大的問題所以不是振奮老師不行因為這有一點問題"},{"start":6349.008,"end":6349.468,"text":"主席"},{"start":6367.544,"end":6378.55,"text":"整個實施到今年4月的話8個月以來大概申請的看護的人6.2萬當中其中有3.2萬事實上是用多元免貧"},{"start":6379.284,"end":6402.353,"text":"那其中80歲大概有2.3萬人大概將近七成左右的這樣的人可是到底這樣子已經放寬了所以我們覺得如果是這樣的話真的是放得太寬因為換句話說今天"},{"start":6403.306,"end":6429.52,"text":"我本來對這個就有疑慮就是放寬這個資格的時候基本上只要使用長照6個月然後那每個月只要使用一次就符合這個標準那換句話就是重度需求者為了聘僱的話未來事實上是會把價錢跌得更高所以在這種狀況底下就一共的人數有限我們現在只有23萬在我們的看護"},{"start":6431.75,"end":6459.476,"text":"那剛剛蘇清泉委員講說大概如果以這樣的價錢一個家庭要付到40萬他認為不會有人去可是我要講移工在人數有限的狀況底下這個工資事實上是會跌高在疫情期間的話我有朋友他在學當學當老師他因為要照顧媽媽然後要找移工5萬塊聘不到人"},{"start":6460.389,"end":6486.653,"text":"那抱歉那這樣子就是80萬不是那個蘇委員講的40萬而已另外一個重度需求者會留不住移工也聘不到人那我最擔心的應該是因為我不管在過去民間我們在基金會工作或我剛進立法院的時候碰到一個狀況就是年輕人來上班一個月兩個月他說他要回家因為爸爸中風"},{"start":6487.341,"end":6509.557,"text":"或者是媽媽住院為什麼犧牲他因為他事實上是收入最低的他就是剛出來社會3萬塊啊為什麼不是犧牲哥哥姊姊因為哥哥姊姊薪水最高可是我們國家如果栽培一個碩士然後呢甚至大學然後呢結果他因為要這樣回家他這樣回家只要一年就好"},{"start":6512.612,"end":6512.632,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6528.479,"end":6553.248,"text":"聘僱的方式要有選擇權一方面照顧到這邊一方面也照顧到當地的人是不是他可以不用去透過仲介繳交的費用如果他有能力的話那不用去做到所以我們會認為說不是只有台印可能其他四國可不可以考慮這五國都能夠完備直接聘僱的一個機制來讓"},{"start":6555.028,"end":6555.048,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6567.469,"end":6571.13,"text":"臺灣現在就是有這個職聘可是呢牽扯到各部會的話沒有在這系統當中非常難用還要簡化程序還要加掛移工的資格評選跟"},{"start":6597.901,"end":6599.622,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6621.656,"end":6621.816,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6648.96,"end":6676.423,"text":"這個大概是一個歷史脈絡可是我們認為私人聘僱跟公共照顧應該是互補的 怎麼說呢 下一頁是不是移工長照這個照顧雙軌制應該互相跨越 大家現在目前本來希望有 要有可是後來就我們的政府部門不認為需要 後來那大家目前現在已經事實上可以用到所謂的"},{"start":6677.145,"end":6677.165,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6691.124,"end":6719.55,"text":"八四量表還是八十歲為什麼這麼講所以我剛剛還非常贊成緊林秘書長講的就是說我們應該就是來討論那個很難用的而不是一直在講八十歲以上全部免聘應該是我們去檢討八十量表才不會衝擊到我們的移工的照顧政策裏面否則雖然剛剛提說五十三萬不一定會聘"},{"start":6720.049,"end":6748.282,"text":"可是有情的不一定不會聘這個是讓我們擔心那就會造成年輕人跟長輩的關係有錢的人聘了他就把長輩80歲反正我也不用怕他在家裡會不會跌倒了反正我就丟給這個我們的移工還有事實上我也非常贊成前面有幾位專家學者講的也就是剝奪老人生活的能力本來我80歲好好的所有的我的事情現在都由移工來"},{"start":6749.417,"end":6749.597,"text":"主席"},{"start":6773.963,"end":6775.424,"text":"臺灣身心者 自立生活聯盟常務監事 段可維"},{"start":6824.65,"end":6852.712,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":6854.44,"end":6855.341,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":6877.25,"end":6896.515,"text":"公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法"},{"start":6900.937,"end":6901.677,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":6925.073,"end":6951.371,"text":"這次會議發生時﹖又沒有一首不下﹖往下的配合或是一首歌﹖或是一首歌﹖或是一首歌﹖或是一首歌﹖或是一首歌﹖或是一首歌﹖或是一首歌﹖"},{"start":6952.592,"end":6953.793,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6980.871,"end":7009.611,"text":"公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生"},{"start":7010.592,"end":7010.613,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7019.351,"end":7036.263,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．事由：舉行"},{"start":7044.567,"end":7044.587,"text":"公聽會．議員．議員．議員"},{"start":7060.254,"end":7060.934,"text":"國務委員會主席"},{"start":7082.044,"end":7082.064,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7094.192,"end":7094.232,"text":"公聽會委員："},{"start":7124.172,"end":7124.195,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7125.077,"end":7134.922,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會議"},{"start":7155.113,"end":7162.297,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":7185.367,"end":7192.448,"text":"公聽會員：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會議"},{"start":7213.922,"end":7215.145,"text":"本會議主席主席"},{"start":7223.1,"end":7252.103,"text":"公聽會．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會�"},{"start":7253.035,"end":7253.881,"text":"我可以啊"},{"start":7256.632,"end":7285.305,"text":"最后一件事：作為方面的訪問：我們認為在政府的陷阱：香港的生活層面：應該顯得是結局領域不足的問題：再一件事：作為國際社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":7286.843,"end":7287.564,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":7303.619,"end":7322.373,"text":"普遇和公職不符合這個需求的各個物品和各個來物是已有所謂公益和探討的普遇。謝謝大家。"},{"start":7327.248,"end":7334.315,"text":"謝謝臺灣身心者自立生活聯盟常務監事段可為常務監事的發言那我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8039.687,"end":8050.782,"text":"我們現在繼續開會接下來請中華民國身心障礙聯盟 洪新平秘書長發言"},{"start":8058.037,"end":8071.453,"text":"主席在座各位好我們聲音障礙團體是主要就業安定基金的金主之一今天就從聲音障礙者在使用外勞方面來跟各位做報告"},{"start":8073.415,"end":8102.256,"text":"首先根據10年的衛福部調查生意障礙人口裡面有照顧需求的人大概是68萬不過大部分現在都還是住在家中需要照顧者大概是59.2萬那這其中69.5%是由家人照顧外看是12.9看起來比例不高但其實大部分我們都是用把外籍看護作為補充式人力照顧也就是家裡本來就有一個照顧者然後再請外籍看護來做一些協助"},{"start":8103.136,"end":8121.036,"text":"中間也有一些限制分不同的障礙類別比如說如果是認知能力或注意能力有問題的話其實他也不適合作為單獨雇用外籍看護來使用服務大家都可以理解如果沒有辦法都沒有辦法知道說怎麼樣好好照顧自己的話外看更不知道要怎麼樣去照顧"},{"start":8122.611,"end":8132.424,"text":"那在110年大概有社福移工這邊人數大概是22萬點5但是22.5萬但是其中也包括一部分是機構這邊去做聘僱"},{"start":8137.258,"end":8159.07,"text":"現在長照進入2.0可能要進入3.0了在11年公佈了長照裡面生意障礙者的使用狀況原則上我們已經超過一半的長照總使用人數裡面超過一半是生意障礙者各個等級都有也集中在年齡比較高的障礙者65歲以上"},{"start":8159.73,"end":8184.779,"text":"那最多當然神經肌肉骨骼也就是有移動困難的身心障礙者為主然後再來的話才會是神經系統和心智功能不過很微妙的是就是這邊衛福部的資料也做了一下統計非身心障礙也就是沒有拿到身心障礙鑑定證明的在照顧服務的使用上比較高那有身心障礙鑑定證明通常年齡分布也都比較低"},{"start":8185.479,"end":8212.154,"text":"我們反而在專業服務、交通接送、傳行服務上使用率比較高也就是我們身上者在使用服務是很聰明的我們知道說怎麼樣應該說外勞沒有辦法去替代的服務是我們想要使用的重點那當然怎麼樣提升功能比如說這邊看專業服務提升自己的功能交通服務然後增強社交傳行服務是真的有外開的時候需要休息這個部分反而是我們比較常去使用的項目"},{"start":8216.894,"end":8242.631,"text":"前面委員大概有出算到底外籍看護要多少錢我們這邊就直接做精算這個是基本的一個是單次的登記費不超過他一個月薪資然後再來是聘用包括薪資勞健保啊就業安定基金啊這個部分還有因為外籍看護來台灣是直接住在雇主的家裡所以還有時數的雜支那一個月總支出的話大概是3萬2到4萬左右的平均"},{"start":8244.352,"end":8266.407,"text":"但是這邊有一個大家都不敢講的事情為什麼大家會去聘用外籍看護?外籍看護有這麼好用嗎?因為所有的外籍看護工作時間都不止每週40小時如果今天限制大家每天8小時上下班像我們所有台灣正在工作的人一樣我想大家就不會覺得外籍看護在這個薪資之下是非常好用了"},{"start":8266.647,"end":8267.207,"text":"外籍看護有工作選擇權"},{"start":8285.422,"end":8300.841,"text":"那之前前面講外籍看護其實是一個還算蠻貴的照顧那為什麼還會有生意障礙家庭一定要去聘僱我說的是一定喔他沒有長照的選擇喔那多半是他有長時間或是高密度需要照顧需求的案主"},{"start":8301.462,"end":8324.059,"text":"他不見得照顧的負擔很重但他可能是需要比如說長時間的陪伴行或是他30分鐘需要扮一下身或是需要抽痰或是需要夜間服務那這個部分呢因為現在的長照服務還沒有辦法開到這麼好的人力滿足比如說像急血損傷或中度失智所以這個部分他必須要用外籍看護來做補充人力那另外就是家庭照顧難度高"},{"start":8325.16,"end":8350.922,"text":"譬如說岸竹的體重過重或是他有一些攻擊行為那這個是一般居家服務員可能也不太願意去接受的然後家裡可能沒有替補的照顧人力像我一個小孩要去扛兩個父母這樣子另外很重要的前面講每個月三萬二到四萬還不算說我們現在為了搶人還要加獎金那這個部分如果你沒有一定的財力如果是中途受傷可能會有一些保險金或賠償金的話其實你沒有辦法去評估"},{"start":8352.043,"end":8353.184,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整"},{"start":8364.943,"end":8383.901,"text":"我們所有的外籍看護其實沒有適當的訓練但是他剛來台灣就要去照顧上限去照顧程度最重然後時間最長的案組我就簡單的講挑工的原因是為什麼只有有體育啦 排泄物的啦大家都不太願意去照顧不管本國或外國比如說要抽痰的或是要肝油球排便的"},{"start":8384.281,"end":8399.382,"text":"那即便是居府員在做這樣子的服務的時候他其實是要經過專業訓練可是外籍看護進來完全不用欸大家有沒有去思考說為什麼對他們勞動權益來說不是一個很好的保障可是對我們家屬來說卻是不得已的選擇所以我這邊想提的是"},{"start":8400.223,"end":8419.594,"text":"應該說我們外籍看護進來這麼多年現在其實就已經是長照裡面不可或缺的補充人力了不管是正式或是家庭裡面那我們應該要把它納入體系不要讓僱主再去獨自承擔管訓用這樣子的責任那現在其實慢慢都在開口比如說走動式的照顧服務或是同居共聘這個狀況"},{"start":8421.215,"end":8421.776,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8441.678,"end":8463.525,"text":"在場委員還有媒體這邊去做呼籲我們現在財力不佳跟照顧排斥度最高前面講的最重度的家庭在整個開放之下應該說在還沒有開放之下就已經是嚴重排擠的效應所以真的是為他們去請命怎麼樣去彌補這些照顧負擔最重家庭的缺口發展長照服務去支援才是未來比較健全的手法"},{"start":8464.485,"end":8464.906,"text":"王振旭委員"},{"start":8497.601,"end":8519.819,"text":"謝謝主席各位委員各位專家學者還有各位官員大家好很高興有機會透過公聽會也謝謝趙薇的安排讓大家有更多的機會針對於今天的議題包括就業服務法家庭外籍看護聘僱制度這相關的探討那"},{"start":8521.58,"end":8549.841,"text":"我相信大家面對這個問題其實心情都很沉重也希望透過政府有更好的政策來解決這樣的困境我本身之前是在醫院服務我照顧的全部都是癌症的病人所以他的家人的照顧的確相對來講是非常非常的辛苦當他需要聘請醫工的時候很多的醫工他們的確也耐苦耐勞"},{"start":8550.942,"end":8566.175,"text":"很希望把要照顧的對象照顧好可是當他在醫院裡面看到不同的照顧對象的時候相對來講他就開始會有一些不同的想法出來這個就是我目前面臨的可能性"},{"start":8567.857,"end":8594.318,"text":"剛剛素卿權委也知道﹖也提到說長者都有機會需要被照顧到尤其當他80歲以上的時候可是他的想法裡面認為這些長者他可以自己選擇要不要被照顧所以他可以透過各種不同的需求來滿足每一個人的需要"},{"start":8594.918,"end":8612.31,"text":"那當然我們也知道當全面放寬了以後如果這些被聘僱進來的移工他沒有選擇的時候相對來講這是人性不能夠去責怪任何人說為什麼我要照顧好的照顧對象"},{"start":8613.351,"end":8636.275,"text":"而不想去照顧比較困難的對象這個其實所有的專家學者都已經討論的非常多那還感謝專家學者提出來當一個健康的長者不管他幾歲80歲也好85歲也好甚至90歲也好當他能夠自己照顧自己的時候他其實是一個最好的方法"},{"start":8636.875,"end":8657.095,"text":"不管從文獻上面從接地氣的這些本地的研究還有我們所接觸到自己的長者也都有這樣的潛能他可以照顧自己的時候事實上真的可以不需要在第一時間就要請到其他人來照顧他因為這樣他才有"},{"start":8657.655,"end":8684.406,"text":"還有他最好的健康愚民的生活方式所以針對今天的議題其實當初賴總統在政見的處理當中當他被問到說對於80歲以上的長者都免付巴士量表就能夠申請移工的看法是如何他是認為說其實巴士量表是需要被改善的"},{"start":8685.206,"end":8699.087,"text":"需要有好的建立多元的標準對家庭照顧者提供喘息服務的面向來針對於未來臺灣的長者需要做照顧的一個訴求所以不是說"},{"start":8700.749,"end":8727.569,"text":"直接80歲以上就用這個年齡來當作一個免聘的標準這個我相信透過今天的這個公聽會大家的意見會越來越趨於一致認為說這個是需要維持現有的制度的同時他也希望透過衛福部跟勞動部擬定更好的策略來幫助社會這些長者當他需要照顧的時候尤其是對於現在的家庭形態"},{"start":8728.47,"end":8756.866,"text":"如果是雙薪家庭或子女需要工作無法長期在家陪伴的情形之下我們需要擬定了一些方法那即使勞動部跟衛護這段時間也針對這個要求擬定了相關的免貧的多元措施那這個剛剛岳勤委員也提得非常的清楚所以其實移工跟長照真的是要爽鬼的互補才能夠讓臺灣對於長者的照顧建立一個更好的制度"},{"start":8757.786,"end":8782.236,"text":"能夠讓我們的長者很放心的在這個過程裡面不要讓我們年輕的這一代因為他們年長了而造成一種好像無法陪伴那種內心的壓力或者是帶來一種比較相對來講是比較難克服想要去持續工作持續照顧家庭的部分"},{"start":8782.916,"end":8806.046,"text":"所以今天很謝謝專家學者們提供很多好的意見我相信將來我們在不管請勞動部或是衛務部制定相關策略的時候我們有更好的依據的同時我相信國會的同仁也會根據大家的意見未來在做法案的修正的時候做一個最好的參考以上 謝謝"},{"start":8807.639,"end":8814.958,"text":"好謝謝王振旭委員的發言接下來請臺灣居家服務策略聯盟理事長土星林理事長發言"},{"start":8825.902,"end":8841.33,"text":"主席各位先進大家好我是臺灣居家服務策略聯盟理事長首先就今天的公聽會做一些分享居府聯盟是2010年10月20號成立我們主要在做偵測倡導居府網絡平台以及我們的服務品質的提升"},{"start":8842.33,"end":8848.752,"text":"那大家可以看到這個數字這個是這個衛福部最新的一個數字就是我們臺灣目前在長大年齡發展之下我們總共照顧服務員成長3.9倍那其中呢居家照顧服務員成長了5.3倍社區的照顧服務員成長15.3倍我們花了這麼多的精神力氣希望能夠提供本國籍的就業那我們現在必須透過一個還沒有非常成熟的政策然後要把它變成把這些就業權然後一次要求就打"},{"start":8871.42,"end":8890.649,"text":"打光了 那這個基本上其實對於我們本國籍的就業其實是非常這個不利的再加上我們這幾年成長的過程當中我們過去照顧服務員在105年包括1.0時代的時候我們的國小可能都是國小畢業生但我們現在基本上有博士生 碩士生 高中生 大學生都是進來基本都是高中生"},{"start":8891.189,"end":8908.943,"text":"那我覺得在這樣的情況之下我們的照顧服務已經不再是所謂大家以前講的這個好像是在某一個階層以下的這個職業它是一個非常專業的職業那大家可以看到這部分我接下來今天所有的照片麻煩各位請翻拍使用它是有這個銷量權的大家可以看到我們臺灣這幾年這個本國節照顧服務很努力"},{"start":8913.707,"end":8940.536,"text":"第一我們要讓我們的服務對象把拐杖拿掉讓他可以恢復到不需要長照的服務第二他本來透過一些做家事的狀況以及剛剛亞美老師所談的我們能夠讓他能夠在生活當中然後促進促進他所謂的各種的可能性再來你可以看到最右邊那張三個我們的這個高齡長輩他們自己去決定他的生活自己決定他想要在日照中心做哪些事情"},{"start":8940.776,"end":8940.796,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8964.477,"end":8964.497,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8984.068,"end":9002.098,"text":"另外一部分在我們去年10月份放寬這個規定之後大家可以看到在我們的食物的現況其實有三件事情第一件事情就是我們使用半年他就結案那這個結案完之後他可能不到一個月他又來開案因為第一個是他覺得這個整個使用需求可能不符合他"},{"start":9002.558,"end":9002.618,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9020.8,"end":9021.221,"text":"開放的輕度失職者"},{"start":9036.543,"end":9036.563,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9062.322,"end":9062.362,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9087.115,"end":9088.436,"text":"那我們都在談的是這個缺工到底缺工的定義是什麼"},{"start":9113.12,"end":9121.086,"text":"我四月份五月份去了越南去做演講我們找到了這個當地第一個第一大跟第二大的這個輸出的這個培訓單位目前的他跟我說過往他們的輸出到臺灣來但這幾年他們輸出到哪裡去他們"},{"start":9128.666,"end":9152.039,"text":"我講個數字好了他們輸入到台灣是2萬人輸出到台灣是2萬人輸出到日本是7萬人即使是到日本他們需要這個受訓的人他需要花6個月的學費必須得到N4日本日文的這個檢定但是呢這些人還是願意去日本首先是一個制度問題因為日本是職聘"},{"start":9152.859,"end":9180.553,"text":"所以聘用的單位他直接是到越南去做這個聘用另外一部分在受訓的6個月當中我們的日本的單位他可以給什麼不管是長照的單位不管是餐飲單位他其實是每個月會給這個培訓單位管理費的那所以呢對於這個很多他覺得雖然他到日本他需要通過語言檢定可是他還是願意花這個6個月那比台灣只要花2個月培訓的期間多了4個月3倍的時間"},{"start":9181.693,"end":9181.853,"text":"A咖B咖"},{"start":9196.57,"end":9225.152,"text":"可能都已經到了日本甚至到了德國目前德國已經到了越南印尼印尼去招工所以呢我們好的人才他可能都輸出過已經給什麼給只要我的申請程序能夠減輕然後還有就是我的這個輸出的那個國民他到了當地國家的時候能夠生活得很好的時候基本上他們都輸出到那個國家去那臺灣真的沒有對我們的這個外籍朋友非常差我們其實待遇沒有低而是我們可能有些行政程序的這個繁瑣"},{"start":9226.133,"end":9227.494,"text":"反而是什麼我們的外籍朋友在那邊聊天"},{"start":9253.576,"end":9280.755,"text":"但我們的長輩他其實什麼自己陪伴自己所以我們的陪伴的定義是什麼缺工的定義是什麼必須要開始來講清楚因為呢今年48年次入到65歲2026年是50年次的人入到65歲假如我們65年次65歲沒有改變的話再來明2026年是我長照2009到了最後一年那2026年是臺灣21%的超高齡時代的開始所以降低失能率才是我們應該討論的重點以上謝謝"},{"start":9285.934,"end":9292.986,"text":"謝謝圖欣玲理事長的發言接下來請國立中山大學管理學院助理教授張恆彥張教授發言"},{"start":9303.024,"end":9329.519,"text":"主席各位先進大家好我是中山大學管理學院的老師所以我會比較用管理學的這樣的角度來切入我們今天討論的因為剛剛很多先進都已經分享了不管是以長照的部分還是以這個勞動力的部分那我在想就算我們今天不開放80歲的這個需求還是存在那這個需求一旦存在的話會影響什麼呢我們以最簡單的供需原則來看就好了"},{"start":9329.799,"end":9329.819,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9355.628,"end":9375.621,"text":"請他們來臺灣的雖然有一部分已經去日本但我們自己門心自問假設今天我有兩個工作可以選一個是留在臺灣一個是在日本一個在美國我們自己會選哪裡所以那不完全只是薪資的一個條件而是你居住的環境跟你對自己未來的一個想法那剛剛有老師提到說北歐我們很希望自己學北歐但是其實剛剛蘇委員有提到"},{"start":9378.783,"end":9406.71,"text":"臺灣人自己的生活方式是怎樣我們要先自己瞭解比如我們是不是想要在家我們是不是想要跟長輩生活長輩是不是比較不喜歡出去北歐啊不要管北歐的生活條件本來就跟我們不一樣光是他們出去路是比較平的他們的居家環境也是比較寬敞的可是臺灣真的不是所以我們當然是要有一個很好的願景但是我們可不可以做得到這個我們不大確定然後再來我們今天還有另外討論的重點是要不要開放80歲以上的免巴士糧表"},{"start":9409.61,"end":9430.756,"text":"平均漁民 平均79歲男性76歲 女性83歲所以我們在討論80歲以上的人沒有那麼多可是我們要的就只是讓這些已經80歲這些鳳毛零爪的人雖然沒有真的還是有好幾十萬但是其實就是讓他們可以方便而已那他們還是會自己去衡量他們到底要不要聘家庭看護"},{"start":9431.836,"end":9431.856,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9451.673,"end":9479.813,"text":"這所有制度使用下我覺得最好的就是有一個外籍看護帶我們私人的家人出去到日照中心所以有人陪伴那我們這種少子化的家庭我也不怕他在家裡面是不是跌倒或者是他不願意出去因為像我父親是失智症我媽是癌症所以這是兩個比較困擾的一個疾病那失智症他在初期的時候他其實是可以行走的問題是他可能不知道他的方向感在哪裡所以我們為什麼可以放心地工作是因為我知道有人在家陪他"},{"start":9480.253,"end":9480.293,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9500.086,"end":9524.297,"text":"那我們在回家到從工作回來的時候我們也可以再協助把這樣子一個賦能的機會去完成所以長照跟家庭看護這兩個本來就不應該是互賜而且應該是相輔相成的但是我必須要有足夠的看護工進來我才可以讓我安心的去工作那我們剛剛提到很多東西就是那看護工為什麼會需要來臺灣然後有沒有辦法把他留下來照顧重症呢"},{"start":9524.617,"end":9524.637,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9549.182,"end":9549.202,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9569.531,"end":9570.771,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員．完整會議公聽委員．完整會議公聽委員．完整會議"},{"start":9599.558,"end":9599.578,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9621.855,"end":9622.275,"text":"逃逸外勞"},{"start":9641.864,"end":9641.884,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9660.555,"end":9660.615,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9680.822,"end":9706.148,"text":"可以隨便打工的機會非常非常多他當然不會留在現在的這些地方來照顧所以我們要增加的是什麼呢增加他的留任意願然後減少他可以轉換工種轉換到其他業別的這樣一個部分那當然完整的履歷照護今天他如果很有完整的履歷照護包括像這個職聘我可以看到他照顧過怎麼樣重症的老人作為他未來被我聘僱的這樣一個方式當然會讓我可以更願意去用他"},{"start":9707.048,"end":9721.935,"text":"那所以呢我們這些所有的長照資源應該要去設計一個符合照護者需求的那我們這個整個看護還是居服員都一樣要留才留任在這個照護產業要不然說實在現在的居服員他有在打掃啊"},{"start":9722.295,"end":9722.375,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9739.456,"end":9765.95,"text":"讓他可以去申請讓他去使用所以我們有可能要用一個外展制度那所以外展制度的話呢我也希望是由衛福部來做這樣的訓練因為我們現在勞動部設計的一直都是把他focus在雇傭關係勞動這樣子的一個爭議上面可是如果是衛福部我們可以比較他像這個訓練居扶員一樣我是不是有一些完整的教育訓練讓他可以一樣再像我們學校有學習禮遇一樣我可以看到這個人受夠什麼樣的教育訓練"},{"start":9766.51,"end":9766.85,"text":"其他部分包括最後做一個結論"},{"start":9784.105,"end":9784.285,"text":"委員會公聽會議"},{"start":9807.395,"end":9807.515,"text":"以上 謝謝"},{"start":9832.947,"end":9844.834,"text":"好 謝謝國立中山大學管理學院助理教授張恆彥張助理教授的發言那接下來請臺灣外籍工作者發展協會徐瑞熙理事長發言"},{"start":9846.779,"end":9871.287,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位這個夥伴大家好今天我們來參加這個會議其實是感慨良多我想要先解釋我想要就是先談一下就是移工團體事實上今天來的移工團體大概勉強來算的話大概只有我們那我們要談的是我們是希望能夠就是就幾個部分也先跟各不管是長照的專家或者是僱主的團體這邊還有委員"},{"start":9873.087,"end":9873.428,"text":"家庭看護工"},{"start":9889.385,"end":9908.092,"text":"24小時的工作甚至於很多的家庭看護工一個月最多休假一天這其實對任何一個人來講都是非常不合理的工作制度你如何希望一個看護工他這麼疲累的一個情況之下然後你希望他可以好好的來照顧這個"},{"start":9909.729,"end":9933.926,"text":"照顧這個顧主然後第二個我們也常常在呼籲一個問題家庭看護工進到私領域去之後碰到了什麼我們在機構裡面有制度有機構的一些勞保相關的一些制度工作的排班但是事實上一旦進入到這個家庭裡面之後進入到私領域之後事實上是很少有這樣子的一個權益的一個保障"},{"start":9935.336,"end":9946.762,"text":"譬如說之前報導者曾經做過一個調查有一部分的家庭看護工在家裡在家庭照顧的時候受到了性騷擾"},{"start":9948.595,"end":9977.407,"text":"那這個部分呢因為他有一個工作工作的一個需要以至於他沒有辦法去把這樣子的一個沒有辦法去申訴這樣的事情因為他可能就會被換走甚至於在仲介的那一端他們就不主動的去協助然後讓這個移工所以移工也只好忍氣吞聲那這些都是我們在照顧現場裡面很大的一個問題我接觸過一些臺灣的家庭就是居家服務員他們也會說阿公有些時候去也會碰到這樣子的一個騷擾的問題"},{"start":9978.687,"end":9995.252,"text":"但是這一類型騷擾的問題就沒有像看護工這麼樣子的嚴重跟直接那另外我們要談的常常我們也在談的就是一個看護其實是一個高風險的一個工作大家覺得照顧陪伴"},{"start":9995.832,"end":10010.871,"text":"這些可能都是很優質的一個我們希望得到一個很優質的照顧可是我們確實也看到就是說有一些這個照顧的這個品質的風險其實是很高的所以在這個部分上面你知道我們有一些看護工為什麼"},{"start":10011.451,"end":10033.638,"text":"為什麼他不照顧重症者因為我照顧重症者如果有一些照顧的一些方式不對了或者是突然無預期的過世他也很可能會惹上官司啊所以這些都是他們在第一現場他們為什麼不願意照顧有蠻多的原因當然我們要回歸到另外一個就是市場的問題其實現在的看護工跟以前很不一樣"},{"start":10035.097,"end":10060.081,"text":"很多時候我知道有些僱主會說為什麼勞動部每天要發這麼多的這個跟看護工講他們那麼多的這個勞動權益可是你知道嗎現在的看護工每一個人人手一支手機其實他們要得到這些資訊太容易了就算勞動部不發這個資訊那難道他們不知道嗎你知道在流傳在這個看護工裡面的這個群組他們的Facebook上面"},{"start":10061.844,"end":10071.716,"text":"這一類型的資訊其實是非常的多那所以我們要講的就是說我們再也不能夠像過去一樣我們認為只要我不提供足夠的資訊這些勞動資訊給看護工他就不會跑了"},{"start":10077.523,"end":10099.948,"text":"所以剛才有幾位就是專家學者他還提到我們也非常的贊同就是我們如何希望就是讓這些重症的這些被照顧者能夠讓他減少就是減少他的這個移工逃跑的問題我覺得這個部分確實是需要慎重的去評估政府需要去評估是不是要給予他一些這個經費的一些補助"},{"start":10101.628,"end":10129.273,"text":"我覺得這個問題真的是非常現實我們到移工在現場目前勞動部好像規定說就是兩萬塊可是你知道在現場在臺北的看護工他可能一個月的薪資不算加班就已經兩萬五兩萬六了那請問你在南部的山上在偏遠鄉區那邊照顧的人他不會看手機看到原來我的朋友在臺北一個月薪水兩萬六還可以放假"},{"start":10129.833,"end":10149.169,"text":"然後呢還可以陪這個老闆出國出去玩到台灣哪裡玩然後我在山上陪伴一個只有一個老人全部都是我要陪伴所以我覺得我覺得我們在就是說在這個部分上面我們認為長照的這個制度一定要把移工的部分不要只是認為他是勞動部的問題"},{"start":10152.062,"end":10174.103,"text":"很大一部分我們的衛福部也要進來那所以剛才在講到就是說接下來的外展的看護工也把甚至於我們回到最簡最基礎的家庭看護工我覺得機構的看護工還有這個機構可以做一些訓練然後這個接下來的外展我們不知道現在勞動部怎麼樣來設計這個外展的看護工甚至於就是這個"},{"start":10174.804,"end":10202.305,"text":"短期的這個看護工讓他們來擔任這個短期的工我們不曉得他會怎麼設計但是我們誠摯的希望衛福部必須要進到這個場域裡面來如果你希望看護工有一個好的服務你再也不能夠讓勞動部只是在他的網站上放幾支這個影片放幾支怎麼照顧服務的影片那這些部分其實這不是勞動部的專業所以我們會覺得其實在衛福部這一個部分"},{"start":10202.645,"end":10206.008,"text":"你如何的就是把自己的一些照顧的專業也放到這裡面來但是我們要講的是說"},{"start":10211.889,"end":10237.596,"text":"還有另外一個就是剛才講到的這些都是一些迷思的問題我覺得在政策上面還有一個很重要的就是我們的這些移工其實這一段時間以來從今天早上經濟部部長也在講是不是台電要開放使用這個移工了那麼大量的一個開放移工的狀態之下我們到底政府勞動部這邊的移工的一個管理的平台到底是有沒有發揮它的效能"},{"start":10238.596,"end":10254.465,"text":"剛才有一個委員提到了韓國這邊已經做了一個比較所謂的一戰式的我看到勞動部的新聞也提到他們做了他們現在改善了很多一戰式的服務可是就我們移工團體在接觸不同的工種甚至於只光是這個這個看護工這一段"},{"start":10255.225,"end":10279.753,"text":"一個你要申請一個事情你可能就是一個平台勞動部有很多一站式的平台有很多一站式的服務請問一下我們的我們臺灣號稱這個智慧型的這個醫化的服務的大國我們的公共服務的這個醫化一站式的智慧平台的部分可不可以讓我們的僱主更為方便那那麼多的移工要進來了我們要講的是說那"},{"start":10282.634,"end":10283.355,"text":"許瑞熙理事長"},{"start":10313.649,"end":10328.342,"text":"好 謝謝主席還有各位與會代表那今天我們召開公聽會其實是源自於我們現在立法院有好幾個版本是針對這個八四良表的一個修正希望能夠在80歲以上能夠免這個八四良表"},{"start":10333.186,"end":10333.666,"text":"長者及幼兒"},{"start":10350.111,"end":10369.731,"text":"那麼家庭看護他們的申請之困難其實已經成為臺灣社會的一個非常非常長期的民怨那這也就是為什麼在去年的時候大家都知道總統大選的選舉那麼侯友宜他是其中候選人他提出來"},{"start":10370.751,"end":10370.991,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10389.136,"end":10392.097,"text":"但是即使是如此這個問題就解決了嗎當然沒有解決那麼事實上我們今天看到我們在民間有多少如果我們今天將心比心我們設身處地大家可能要自問能不能夠去接受這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":10409.741,"end":10423.775,"text":"譬如說也有醫生跟我講為了要申請巴士糧表有的有90歲的哥哥帶著這個80歲的弟弟去申請巴士糧表拜託醫生能夠開給他"},{"start":10425.476,"end":10425.496,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10455.576,"end":10455.937,"text":"我特別要講"},{"start":10480.56,"end":10501.943,"text":"我們的外籍家庭幫傭的申請之困難我們可能很多專家寫者他可能有很多的命向要照顧可是今天以我們的申請家庭幫傭的這些標準最近還有一個年輕人跟我講"},{"start":10503.066,"end":10531.359,"text":"他說他的太太馬上要生三胎了我說很好啊我覺得在這個少子化的過程裡面我只到覺得年輕人願意生小孩願意生到第二個願意生到第三個我都覺得政府應該頒獎狀給他才對然後他就跟我抱怨他說因為呢即便是他的太太即將要生小孩可是因為好像他的這個老大已經到6歲了"},{"start":10533.47,"end":10552.495,"text":"6歲不滿6歲他仍然不符合相關的規定還是沒有辦法申請所以如果我們今天看到我們這些相關的規定你要知道他有多麼嚴苛我來給大家看一些實際的案例來看一下要怎麼樣的方式我們才能夠申請到呢"},{"start":10558.482,"end":10582.529,"text":"你可能要有兩個兩歲以下的子女你要去照顧一個兩個兩歲以下子女應該很辛苦了吧不行你還要再加上一個78歲以上的長者你才能夠申請到然後我另外一個案例那你要同時有一歲三歲五歲可以了吧對 不要說對一個媽媽啦"},{"start":10587.113,"end":10610.239,"text":"父母加起來有時候有公公婆婆來幫一歲三歲五歲是不是很辛苦想也知道很辛苦我自己有三個小孩我還好我的三個小孩都長大了我看到這個我都覺得他們很辛苦你能申請到嗎不行還是沒有辦法達到你還要加一個79歲以上長者"},{"start":10612.554,"end":10638.471,"text":"也就是說如果你家裡有長者要同時你有小孩的話你看這樣的狀況你才能夠申請到無怪乎現在我們有這麼多的這個年輕的夫婦不願生小孩他怎麼辦呢剛才也有特別提到說如果啊我們這樣子的開放的話可能對於健康的老人會被排斥什麼叫做健康的老人"},{"start":10642.765,"end":10661.085,"text":"最近大家都看到這個美國總統大選我想對於拜登總統來講他一定不會說他是不健康的老人他一定健康的老人可是如果你的父母出現了像拜登總統這樣狀況隨時隨地有可能跌倒你覺得"},{"start":10663.769,"end":10689.035,"text":"你放心讓他在家裡你放心如果你家裡是沒有電梯的對不起很多都沒有電梯對不對他隨時隨地上下樓梯他就跌倒了他可能到超市他突然走不出超市來這樣的狀況請問一下你作為人子女你覺得你該怎麼照顧他你放心讓他一個人嗎你該怎麼辦"},{"start":10693.207,"end":10704.555,"text":"辭職在家嗎我真的有很多朋友為了要照顧他的父母最後我都覺得他好優秀但他沒有辦法他說沒有辦法這樣子的民眾他該怎麼辦所以當你講說健康老人會排斥有時候我在想為什麼八十兩秒這麼困難好 我自己作為一個女性"},{"start":10718.723,"end":10746.428,"text":"我要講的是我們作為女性在臺灣長期以來的問題就是我們的婦女的勞動參與率的偏低而且隨著年齡尤其30歲以後你的勞動參與率就漸漸下降為什麼你要回復到如果你有小孩你就可能要照顧幼我剛剛講嗎你生了三個我覺得這個國家真的應該感謝你用什麼樣方式來感謝你"},{"start":10747.54,"end":10747.56,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10770.93,"end":10796.262,"text":"幫這些我剛才所講的這些狀況能夠幫忙想一想任何一個人自己設身處地是同樣的狀況的時候我們該怎麼辦所以這也就是為什麼我們要提出這個八十兩表的修正事實上我個人我覺得不止八十歲以上的八十兩表修正甚至幼子女的也一定要放寬啊不然我們憑什麼去跟年輕的夫婦講說請你們生小孩請你們生小孩我怎麼生啊"},{"start":10799.924,"end":10800.244,"text":"接下來請劉許廷委員發言"},{"start":10830.5,"end":10853.947,"text":"謝謝主席今天來出席就業服務法家庭外籍看護聘僱制度探討公聽會的所有先進夥伴大家午安這個台灣老年人口數快速增長根據內政部最新的統計資料65歲以上人口415.8萬人佔總人口17.8%老化指數147.9%各縣市老化的程度前三名嘉義21.9%第二台北市21.3%第三南投縣"},{"start":10858.648,"end":10884.836,"text":"20.3每5個人就有1個是高齡人口未來114年我們將邁入超高齡社會老年人口的比例超過20%而到民國145年預估老年人口達到37.5%人口快速老化帶來的衝擊面向非常多它不是個人的議題而是社會全面結構的衝擊因此建構符合高齡者的長期照顧需求其實不是問題而已而是立刻必須被解決的問題"},{"start":10885.976,"end":10909.888,"text":"除了老年人口快速上升施能的老年人口也隨之增加現在已達120萬人這個已經不是超前部署而是要立刻解決的問題伴隨少子化的問題我們的撫養比居高不下相當於每位青壯年目前照顧0.8位老年人也會更高尤其施能老人的照護更是家屬龐大來源之一為了解決照顧的迫切需求並減輕負擔"},{"start":10911.369,"end":10911.689,"text":"每一個家庭"},{"start":10940.283,"end":10960.405,"text":"因應這個長照的杯葛 私人照護的困境女性的參與率因為這樣受到影響都是現在在社會各個角落都在發生的立即性而且迫切性的問題換言之正因為如此我們認為在綜合各方的想法跟考量之後放寬相關的門檻還是要先走"},{"start":10960.905,"end":10963.766,"text":"現在是巴士量表針對日常生活失能與否的評估"},{"start":10985.637,"end":11000.239,"text":"實際上顯然啊這個需要照顧的人不是不是只有失能者這我們剛剛說過了失智或者是重大疾病用巴斯量表好像也不一定評估的出來所以換言之有很多人在講是不是應該讓巴斯量表回復診斷證明的功能而不是變成聘護"},{"start":11001.06,"end":11023.129,"text":"並故外籍看護的一個資格審查的硬性門檻並且應該要利用失能的程度評估作為給予長照補助的標的這我想大家都更加的專業所以積極的評估擴大多元免評的適用範圍採取多元認定的方式免除巴斯亮表的評估這我想政府應該也做了若干的作為那追根究理都還是要簡化"},{"start":11024.045,"end":11053.429,"text":"民眾在申請聘僱外籍看護工的程序我想這個方向我們樂觀其成這個我們也希望是雙軌並進另外針對外籍看護人力聘僱條件的鬆綁有些人會擔心有所謂的排擠效應有器重則輕這確實是有這樣的可能但是不能因為這一點就把立即性的有照護需求的家庭拒之門外這我想是民意代表的責任必須要如實的來做反應所以我們要求政府應該要有更多的配套相關措施不管是讓重症難照顧者"},{"start":11053.689,"end":11072.739,"text":"有更多的補助提高待遇給相關的看護工或者是轉介長照居家服務剛剛我們有教授講非常好應該是透過導引的方式如何整合這兩軌讓外籍看護跟現有的長照政策能夠做銜接讓它變成相互支援的一個模式我想這也是一個可以朝向的目標"},{"start":11073.78,"end":11093.877,"text":"最後我本席認為家庭的外籍看護聘僱已經逐漸從補充了人力慢慢變成主力這是一個大家雖然覺得有點遺憾但是這個現實我想勞動部不應該只是把它變成家庭跟移工之間的聘僱關係而是應該要去思考負責任的管控外籍看護的這些的長照品質"},{"start":11094.657,"end":11115.841,"text":"並且給予更好的專業訓練剛剛我們也有學者專家有提到日本的門檻硬性門檻比台灣高很多但為什麼人家還是願意去呢這個是值得深入探討我們是不是能夠合理的提高專業訓練的強度讓未來能夠進來的這些移工更有相關的專業素養跟品質我想這我們也是非常同意的"},{"start":11116.341,"end":11142.318,"text":"並且更重要的是勞動部應該要跟衛福部一起整合長照資源讓民眾能夠有效而且便利的來運用最後我們才能夠打造勞有所終這個友善老年人口的這個社會本期樂見外籍看護聘僱制度的鬆綁解決老年人口照顧的迫切需求也要解決青壯年人口的負擔期望勞動部與衛福部在聽了今天大家不同的意見之後肩負責任整合照護資源"},{"start":11142.958,"end":11154.53,"text":"不管是外籍看護或是長照機制都要有更細膩、更完善的配套措施以致改善以上謝謝好 謝謝牛許廷委員的發言接下來請王育民委員發言謝謝主席"},{"start":11165.047,"end":11167.491,"text":"今天出席的專家學者還有代表還有我們的委員跟官員我想有關於今天公聽會的主題其實是很重要的議題因為臺灣要面臨這個高齡社會"},{"start":11180.267,"end":11202.691,"text":"那其實我們整個長照體系的檢討包括外籍看護工的聘用這當中現在持續的在擴展但是持續也有一些問題產生所以事實上從早上到現在我也聽了非常多專家學者的一些意見那首先我想要謝謝在第一線其實今天很多專家學者包括團體大家長期第一線都在長照體系做出了非常大的一個貢獻"},{"start":11208.919,"end":11209.019,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11224.477,"end":11224.577,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":11242.225,"end":11242.385,"text":"公聽會主席"},{"start":11259.409,"end":11266.013,"text":"是我們現在長照體系本來就存在的議題包括其實大家講的就是有一些重症的家庭他就是比較難照顧而這些外籍看護工他應該得到什麼樣的訓練什麼樣的支持系統什麼樣的支援政府的角色又在哪裡那我們才可以讓這一些重症家庭聘了家庭看護工之後"},{"start":11280.783,"end":11281.903,"text":"政府對於這些重症家庭"},{"start":11309.045,"end":11310.333,"text":"就是我們提供什麼樣的服務"},{"start":11311.249,"end":11329.643,"text":"是不是只要一個重症家庭他聘了一個外籍看護工之後政府就都不管了這就是你的事你自己來那我覺得這樣是不對的所以有關於大家一再的去考量說重症家庭會不會找不到工他的這個看護工應該要怎麼樣給他一個好的訓練讓他可以久任我覺得這是一個重要的議題而因為今天的公聽會也因為之前大家的討論我覺得衛福部也好勞動部也好針對這個部分"},{"start":11341.274,"end":11341.844,"text":"要有一個"},{"start":11343.077,"end":11370.706,"text":"專門的計畫提出來解決大家的問題因為這個是現在已經存在的問題而不是因為開放80歲以上免巴士量表之後他才會產生的問題我想這個大家要理清所以根本的問題我們就應該要根本的來處理跟解決我覺得這個才可以真的要去呼應到這些重症家庭的需求這是一個面向另外一個我要講的就是80歲以上的老人家"},{"start":11371.626,"end":11387.318,"text":"開放這個巴士量表的部分為什麼他必須要推動而為什麼總統候選人他會提出來就是因為人民覺得有需要如果今天所有的80歲以上家庭的人他都覺得我們現在的這個制度很好"},{"start":11388.118,"end":11388.138,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11407.606,"end":11430.436,"text":"政府應該要正視我們所有的服務體系檢證辨明是非常重要的看看我們現在的制度多麼的繁複我們是在為難這些有需求的家庭所以為什麼有委員要提出這樣子的一個檢證辨明的措施讓有80歲以上的這些家庭有需求的家庭可以省去舟車老頓"},{"start":11432.366,"end":11459.601,"text":"那這個就是政府要去思考的為什麼這個政策一喊出來修法喊出來之後在民意上是獲得壓倒性的支持就是因為民眾覺得現在的政策不夠好現在太反覆這個也是為什麼逼的現在勞動部說我們要更去簡化那個過程評估的過程所以很多的制度我們的推進都是因為從民眾的需求我們看到問題我們可以不斷的"},{"start":11462.843,"end":11487.502,"text":"提出政策的建言讓他更進步但是不會因為今天開放的這件事情就會去壓垮我們的長照體系我想這個也太沉重不至於到這樣我們去回顧我們過去開放外籍看護工跟我們的長照體系這兩者是並存一直走到現在我們的長照量也持續在擴大我們的外籍看護工也持續在增加為什麼"},{"start":11488.888,"end":11492.714,"text":"因為我們的需求也不斷地在增加所以大家真正該去思考的是未來我們的老人家還要更多比例還要更高需求還要更大而現在我們政府所建構出來的服務量能足以因應嗎"},{"start":11505.404,"end":11505.804,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11523.422,"end":11537.962,"text":"光靠本土所建構出來的長照體系也不足以服務所有有需求的這些這個長者的家庭所以未來我們應該建構是什麼一個多元的服務體系一個服務量能充足的服務體系"},{"start":11538.843,"end":11543.087,"text":"一個簡正便民的服務體系在長照服務的過程當中不要去為難任何的這一些案家而政府就是要服務人民所有過程反鎖不必要的都應該要去除我覺得這個應該是我們共同去追求的目標所以很感謝今天我知道的公聽會我覺得臺灣我們未來"},{"start":11562.344,"end":11563.304,"text":"謝謝王育民委員的發言接下來請李燕秀委員發言"},{"start":11598.4,"end":11598.58,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11616.149,"end":11640.996,"text":"今天網路上觀看關注這個議題的所有的好朋友其實他們更有更多不同的想法如果大家曾經在基層跑今天很多委員也提到了很多不同意見聲音更多現在是雙薪家庭也是三明治世代那背負的上有老下有小現在的長照的體系長照2.0時段性的"},{"start":11644.031,"end":11645.632,"text":"我自己是上班族"},{"start":11658.697,"end":11658.817,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11681.687,"end":11708.364,"text":"其實一定面臨這樣的狀況而且接下來面臨這樣的狀況在少子化10年20年的狀況之後我覺得會更多這樣子的狀況跟情形所以簡便化的去處理我們現在的長照長者聘僱外籍看護的需求是我們的目標所以當然它也可以減少更多的醫病的對立所以今天對於這樣的修法方向我個人是相當支持跟認同"},{"start":11709.224,"end":11730.179,"text":"包括我在基層聽到更多這樣的聲音包括我最近在跟大家報告巴士量表的改革 制度的調整基層都跟我說 非常感謝你我至少跟我兒子女兒有一個更好的交代他們可以好好上班 把小孩子照顧好以後不用擔心我太多不用週車勞頓 不讓我一家一家一家一家去跑讓我確認再確認 這次沒通過 下次要再來一次"},{"start":11734.282,"end":11758.467,"text":"這個對於所有身為子女的上班族來說面臨到這樣的狀況他很痛苦他也不願意見到但是他在上班的過程當中其實壓力其實是非常大的所以過去在第8屆跟第9屆的時候其實我也關注到勞動部當時要開放輕度失能長者要聘僱外勞看護的時候部分民進黨的委員其實有擔心說外籍看護的"},{"start":11759.667,"end":11759.687,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11787.165,"end":11787.185,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11817.625,"end":11817.786,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11839.386,"end":11839.446,"text":"第57條第3款"},{"start":11856.196,"end":11873.307,"text":"僱主聘僱外國人不得指派聘僱外國人從事許可以外的工作其實我們現在就有相關的法規可以去做把關如果僱主把外籍看護當幫傭勞動部就可以依法介入廢止聘僱許可而且可以裁罰做處理"},{"start":11874.548,"end":11874.908,"text":"以上是我的意見 謝謝"},{"start":11903.769,"end":11915.376,"text":"好 謝謝李燕秀委員的發言那今天這個學者專家級委員的發言發言完畢那現在請行政機關做整體的回應是不是先請勞動部回應好 時間3分鐘"},{"start":11925.042,"end":11949.057,"text":"謝謝昭偉今天辦了這個公聽會然後現場這麼多的團體來參與我們很感謝各位學者專家以及各位團體代表的建言那麼因為今天我請我的王安邦王次長他是督導這個我們相關的這個業務的主要次長那麼他全程都在現場我也請他來跟各位的訴求來做一個統一的回應好嗎謝謝"},{"start":11955.34,"end":11981.45,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位與會的團體代表謝謝今天很多學者專家給我們勞動部有很多的建議不過我全程聽下來其實大家的歧義沒這麼大我們大概有幾件事情是大家共同的共識首先第一個就是針對被照顧者的需求國家的照顧責任不能被免除我想與會所有不管是委員或者是學者團體代表大家都同意這件事情"},{"start":11982.29,"end":11982.531,"text":"長照1.0 長照3.0 整體政策"},{"start":12000.43,"end":12019.24,"text":"全球大缺工狀況在移工的人力或人才的競組我們確實要跟全世界來競爭這大概跟過去幾年的狀況不太一樣也很謝謝團體提供其他移工輸出國來源的數據以臺灣對日本來講我們就差了三四倍之多"},{"start":12020.12,"end":12041.973,"text":"那在這樣的前提之下 即使移工的資源 家庭看護者的資源 它其實是一個有限的資源那在行政部門的立場 在有限的資源裡面 它如果沒有做一個標準的審核它很容易變成 第一個就是團體提到弱弱相殘 第二個就是也會有反向攻擊的問題"},{"start":12042.953,"end":12070.407,"text":"我想今天與會的專家學者也都給我們這樣子的建議所以對我們而言我們也贊成過去大家外界委員都提到八次量表也許它有很多需要調整所以勞動部也跟衛福部合作我們包括在去年的10月開始做了多元的免貧措施這個多元免貧的措施我一開始的報告也跟各位委員還有與會代表報告說我們希望在9月我們可以再做一波的檢討"},{"start":12071.608,"end":12089.664,"text":"我相信不管是朝野的立委也都支持他其實應該雙綁但今天我們的差異其實是在於我們認為可以雙綁可以調整也可以檢討但是單就一個80歲來作為一個年齡的分野以及劃分的標準這恐怕是略顯不足"},{"start":12090.365,"end":12090.545,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12108.712,"end":12108.912,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12131.544,"end":12131.884,"text":"接下來請衛福部回應時間3分鐘"},{"start":12156.283,"end":12179.708,"text":"感謝今天各界給了非常多的一些意見那我大概聽下來整理大概有兩大面向希望衛福部這邊可以來研議思考第一就是有關聘僱移工的這個準否是不是可以納到長照評估CMS這個是一個議題那第二部分看起來就是希望說移工整個能夠納為長照體系來成為長照人員"},{"start":12181.408,"end":12181.848,"text":"創造CMS評估"},{"start":12207.091,"end":12228.604,"text":"那其實他的目的其實是很重要的是要配置國家的資源就是整個的長照資源要輸送到宅大概這樣的一個概念那基於配置國家的資源這塊他必然就會比較嚴謹跟民眾自己付錢去請一個引進一個移工那個條件要求標準必然會有不同"},{"start":12229.284,"end":12244.27,"text":"所以目前如果以這樣的一個想法的話會跟現行聘僱移工希望朝向放寬然後的這樣一個民意的想法完全是背離所以這件事情是首先先提出來說有這樣的一個想法"},{"start":12245.191,"end":12254.319,"text":"至於就是說到底現階段大家對於這個過往公佈的這個需要醫療診斷的這個證明大家簡稱叫八十兩表它事實上外界真的是誤會了整個醫療專業評估的這件事情就業服務法裡面要為服務部這邊去處理的事實上是一個叫做病證及失能診斷證明"},{"start":12268.072,"end":12294.039,"text":"它是屬於醫療法裡面的醫師開立的診斷證明這個是醫師的一個工作的權責所以其實在去年醫師公會全聯會也正式行文要求說這樣的工作是醫師的專業不能限縮或者不能開放給其他人員因為那是醫療法規範的那針對為什麼大家一直覺得它是一個巴士量表它事實上巴士量表只是裡面的一個副表"},{"start":12294.979,"end":12298.483,"text":"這個副表示針對醫師就醫這個病人的病症他的一個診斷狀況之後事實上有一些勾選的項目也有一些開放的項目那個是醫院醫師的專業那這個巴士亮表只是輔佐他有這個實體裡面輔佐他針對他這樣的疾病他這樣一個身體的狀況"},{"start":12314.901,"end":12337.472,"text":"他去勾選他的得分用這個得分來判定說他屬於完全依賴呢還是屬於嚴重依賴的還是屬於中度還是屬於輕度還是完全獨立大概只是讓醫生在最後有這樣的一個評分的一個依據所以他真的不是叫做巴士量表來決定能不能來請移工他還是要重申是醫師的一個專業的醫療診斷"},{"start":12340.253,"end":12361.5,"text":"那對於有關剛剛特別提到說移工希望納到長照體系成為長照人那這件事情就有更是知識體大了因為整個的移工引進是就業服務法就業服務法的中止其實就是要保障國人那對於這個比較國內不願意從事的工作才有開放的這件事"},{"start":12362.04,"end":12387.195,"text":"所以現階段在長照體系裡面我們住宿是機構因為要輪三班國人真的比較沒有醫院投入所以現階段也已經把這個移工進到住宿型機構的都變為是長照人員那現階段進到長照住宿機構的這些他其實就適用勞基法那也跟國人的這個照顧服務員同工同酬那這個部分都沒有問題也必須要有一些相關的繼續教育"},{"start":12388.656,"end":12390.337,"text":"現階段我們國人居家跟社區從105年1萬多人到現在已經6萬多人事實上成長"},{"start":12405.206,"end":12417.116,"text":"成長6倍這樣的一個本國的照顧服務員那剛剛前面先進有提到其實相關的那個教育水準其實提高我們國內也非常多的學校成立紛紛成立長照相關科系其實就是為了來協助我們的高齡社會後續的這些照顧人力的一個培育讓他品質更高那現階段如果希望把移工整個納到我們的長照體系成為長照人員的話"},{"start":12433.008,"end":12452.191,"text":"這20幾萬大軍一下子就把我們努力了2.0這幾年下來的成果可能都會摧毀那現階段這樣的事情真的知識抵達大家得把它想清楚那我們現階段也不是說外坑我們絕對就是不考慮讓他可以進到長照體系剛剛講的住宿機構我們已經讓他進來了那未來我們也考量因為我們照顧長輩其實口語的表達溝通其實是重要的所以我們也在規劃"},{"start":12461.853,"end":12479.387,"text":"中階的這樣的一個移工我們希望能夠瞭解他整個語言的溝通技巧跟相關的照顧技巧之後我們會逐步來讓他可以到我們的國人比較願意待的這樣的一個居家跟社區的場域來工作那我們會逐步來做處理"},{"start":12481.548,"end":12481.568,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12504.167,"end":12504.187,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12524.043,"end":12537.89,"text":"不可能政府買單所以這個也必須要很嚴格的嚴肅的提出來大家就要去想清楚因為整個的一個選擇聘移工跟使用長照我們其實都是申請制都是民眾自己的選擇那在自己的選擇狀態下"},{"start":12540.771,"end":12555.482,"text":"有可能如果通通要關注到移工的薪水必須學日本這樣跟本國的同工同酬的話相關的成本必然拉高那這個是要全民大家一起來面對的問題那我想這個議題其實是非常複雜的因為我們畢竟移工是民國78年就開放引進的那跟現在長照體系其實是從這個"},{"start":12565.59,"end":12593.03,"text":"2.0其實106年開始1.0時期這個其實因為規模比較小所以大家的習慣怎麼樣能夠把它改變過來那剛剛有先進也提得很好真的最好的長照政策其實就是不要使用到長照服務所以我們現在怎麼樣能夠讓我們面對到這麼多的長輩進來之後他能夠健康老化所以這個不是完全依賴一對一的一個移工來照顧然後"},{"start":12594.591,"end":12613.926,"text":"反而導致他的退化那我想這個是非常嚴肅的議題那至於說相關的這個身體能機制應該怎麼樣來放寬或者是身體能機制怎麼樣來讓他簡化我們一定朝向這個方向在處理所以我們去年10月份其實跟勞動部這邊一起合作包括這些醫療診斷證明跟專業評估方式跟醫療機構已經成長到800多家"},{"start":12618.47,"end":12620.23,"text":"委員楊瓊英提出面資料列入公報"},{"start":12647.727,"end":12666.562,"text":"立法院職權行使法規定委員會應提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者公聽會報告作為審查特定議案之參考我們會把各位寶貴的意見及書面資料匯編成冊分送給本院的全體委員以及"},{"start":12667.863,"end":12670.024,"text":"與會政府機關代表、學者、專家參與"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}