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今天是副秘書長還有法務部 今天是次長委員好"},{"start":20.342,"end":43.834,"text":"副秘書長跟次長我們今天討論刑事訴訟法其中主要一個原因就是呢有一些潛逃不管是棄保潛逃或者在入獄前的潛逃好但是呢我們之前有一些這些重大的案件比如說中文誌啊或者是之前的諸國龍我們都在這裡有質詢而且都說會"},{"start":45.549,"end":59.07,"text":"有一些精進改善的措施對不對這個事情不是今天才發生是吧有沒有精進改善有沒有請問一下來副秘書長司法院部分有沒有精進改善"},{"start":60.71,"end":74.004,"text":"報告委員 這個部分 司法院確實做了很多檢討雖然說我的問題就是有關於這些潛逃的 或者是交保潛逃法院的部分 院方有做精進改善 對不對"},{"start":76.026,"end":98.464,"text":"來 法務部有沒有做精進改善官員報告 上次體育院案發生之後呢法治面基本上修法比較緩慢啦在實務上我們已經發函好幾次函給我們所屬的檢察機關未來就這個強制處分的實施我們要特別的修法院所以我的意思就是說在我們立法院還有社會高度重視"},{"start":99.685,"end":124.064,"text":"我想當然而司法院跟法務部應該不會再繼續的怠惰下去嘛怎麼樣 剩下來就怎麼樣經濟改善好 可是啊就在前兩天發生的是在新竹的孽童案知道嗎 知道這個案子嗎知道這個案子齁"},{"start":125.379,"end":154.468,"text":"所以啊我說沒有最扯只有更扯在新竹發生的虐童案這個他棄保潛逃300萬交保棄保潛逃然後發生之後看到我們的檢方跟我們的地院大家互推皮球責任都不在我院方說我這個讓他交保"},{"start":155.396,"end":174.666,"text":"我已經有媒體報導啦我有做成筆錄啦你們都應該知道因為有媒體報導也做成筆錄那檢方說沒有啊你法院開庭竟然沒有通知檢察官"},{"start":176.075,"end":200.311,"text":"竟然沒有通知檢察官到庭也沒有讓檢察官來表達意見啊進行裁定 這個虐童的嫌犯葉展浩就以三百萬元交保還附加限制住居 還要跟派出所報到所以檢方說的振振有詞院方說的理直氣壯"},{"start":202.444,"end":208.777,"text":"責任都不在 自己可是人咧?人咧?跑掉了所以我就不懂了"},{"start":213.103,"end":237.521,"text":"我們在立法院開了那麼多次的專案報告有這麼多的委員在質詢有這麼多的委員在關心包含本席在內都說會精進改善結果這個案子扯不扯它無關中大經濟犯罪它無關政治性的它就是一個一般老百姓非常關心的一個虐童案人跑掉了"},{"start":242.694,"end":257.766,"text":"然後竟然都說責任不在自己好 你們都是客是檢方和這個法院的長官好 請問一下 我先請先請我們院方來說好了 司法院這個責任在誰你們不要告訴我沒有去了解這個案情喔"},{"start":259.224,"end":261.386,"text":"這個法官有沒有問題他沒有通知檢察官到庭然後只是以說已經有媒體報導了"},{"start":284.648,"end":311.926,"text":"委員可不可以容我說明一下這個那個案件他是一個我們所稱的疑審案件就是說檢察官他終結了他的偵查程序之後他決定要起訴然後把這個羈押的被告送到法院那法院他自己職權決定說要不要羈押這個被告那這個程序所謂的疑審程序他跟偵查中申請羈押不一樣的是法律沒有規定他一定要通知這個官員"},{"start":312.987,"end":341.946,"text":"法官沒有錯不是你的意思是法官沒有錯我要跟那個委員講的是說他有他的那個成因就是說法律他因為檢察官其實他自己也知道他這時候人人今天要開庭就是說決定這個人要不要羈押那所以我就問你嘛我現在就問你你說法官有沒有錯嘛在這個案件上法官有沒有錯嘛整個制度性的就是說這個部分制度錯人沒有錯我們就是說可能就是說每個法院所以你講不出法官有錯"},{"start":342.847,"end":353.019,"text":"他們不夠那個嚴謹所以我們現在也整個把整套那個程序SOP好 所以法官沒有疏失沒有疏失 有沒有疏失嘛"},{"start":354.673,"end":377.6,"text":"委員那個分成兩層一個就是說他核心的他怎麼做決定的這個判斷我給你很多時間說明我也要同樣給我們法務部說明來請問一下法務部次長這個事件檢察官有沒有問題在檢察官他是羈押中送法院的所以在這被告送到法院之後就由法院來決定這個被告是否繼續羈押"},{"start":378.8,"end":403.674,"text":"就訴訟制度上就法官就檢察官來講他這樣當然就法院有所決定之後他來做救濟但這個案檢察官他沒有被通知要到場立庭那事後他也沒有收到這個不押沒有繼續接押的裁定所以法律上他是這個沒有錯不是有沒有錯法律上他不知道清楚地檢署說因為沒有收到裁定書他沒有辦法提起抗告"},{"start":405.049,"end":428.629,"text":"他說而且都沒有通知他們到庭所以請問一下檢察官有沒有錯那原則上法這個裁定對外宣示他也可能對外生效但是你必須要送達檢察官來知道你裁定的理由才能夠提起槓桿所以以你對你作為檢察官的長官你認為檢察官沒有錯我們檢察官他要對個案就計他基本上要有裁定看到了沒有"},{"start":431.109,"end":449.482,"text":"不只是新竹地檢署或者新竹這個地院兩邊推皮球如果我從司法院到這個法務部法務部沒有辦法說出檢察官有錯司法院也說法官沒有錯按照制度就是這樣走"},{"start":450.939,"end":479.615,"text":"那到底錯的是誰?錯的是誰呢?倒霉的是被虐待的兒童嗎?倒霉的是家長?倒霉的是受害人嗎?這個案子到底出現什麼樣的問題?我剛剛講說我們每次對一些重大激進犯罪我們非常生氣我們認為在裡面一定有貓膩這個我不曉得有沒有貓膩啦這個案子我不曉得有沒有貓膩但它活生生的就出現在我們的眼前"},{"start":481.496,"end":498.626,"text":"一個虐童案 三百萬交保 它就跑掉了所以來 再來剩一些時間 你們要怎麼樣怎麼 我在說你們一定有精進的方式啊 我們也想當然爾啊想當然爾你們會有精進 然後現在又告訴我制度出錯了"},{"start":500.956,"end":518.432,"text":"來先請法務部你們要怎麼 像這個案子該怎麼辦跟委員報告 我剛也跟委員報告了就是說這幾個重大案件脫逃之後我們要求警察官在施行公訴的過程當中他對強制處分 對法官強制處分的行使我們要強力的進行他算不算重大案件 這個新竹的劣童案"},{"start":519.052,"end":535.757,"text":"其實不管重不重大啦 假官在實行公訴的時候對法官強制處分權的行使其實我們進行公訴代表人的責任去督促法院適當的行使他的強制處分權我們發函要求訴處假官必須要這麼做好 來 司法院 這個案子"},{"start":536.912,"end":564.15,"text":"你們要怎麼精進那個過往有關於一審程序我們是尊重檢察官他要不要到那現在我們就是有通令就是說請那個各法院就是這種程序一定還是要正式那個通知那個檢察官所以一定要通知檢察官到庭嘛不要有機會再大家互踢皮球是吧好現在我要求法部跟司法院針對這個新竹市的虐童案的細胞潛逃提出報告給我們"},{"start":565.971,"end":584.657,"text":"司法法治委員會然後你們該不該做出懲處也提出來沒有道理啊沒有道理大家都說沒有錯然後就出現這樣的一個七寶潛逃讓我們社會大眾無法接受如果今天一個虐童案可以如此"},{"start":587.328,"end":605.481,"text":"重大經濟犯罪你逃掉了連虐童案你都讓他逃掉了然後都告訴我們我們通通沒有錯老師說我認為這是檢驗雙方的怠惰不把這個案子當回事嘛今天如果是你的孩子被虐待呢你會這樣對待嗎我認為就是兩方都有怠惰不要推給制度制度是死的人是活的"},{"start":615.393,"end":639.298,"text":"所以在這邊要求 這個主席我要求我們的司法院跟法務部 針對這個案子提出報告 還有提出懲處的報告這事情不能不了了之最後我們是懲罰制度嗎懲罰一個冷冰冰的這些文字嗎請 對我們 請 多久可以提出來那再麻煩法務部司法院多一招 多久可以提出來"},{"start":639.778,"end":651.75,"text":"依照那個委員的要求提出相關的報告跟懲處那請問要多久兩週內可以嗎一個月一個月啊那麼久啊兩週可以嗎"},{"start":654.697,"end":669.602,"text":"因為不可能是法務部直接下來調查我們要透過台高檢疫調查還有一個行政流程是不是一個月一個月好我要具體的不要最後又給我看到通通推給制度好不好好謝謝再麻煩一個月內能提出好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":383,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時5分）謝謝主席，我請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長、法務部次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：副秘書長和次長，我們今天要討論刑事訴訟法，其中一個主要原因就是有一些潛逃案件，不管是棄保潛逃或者在入獄前潛逃，之前有一些重大案件，比如鍾文智，或者是之前的朱國榮，我們都在這裡有質詢過，而且你們都說會有一些精進改善的措施，對不對？這個事情不是今天才發生，是吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有精進改善？請問副秘書長，司法院的部分有沒有精進改善？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，這個部分司法院確實做了很多檢討，雖然……"],["王委員鴻薇：我的問題是有關於這些潛逃或者是交保潛逃的案件，在法院的部分，院方有做精進改善，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：法務部有沒有做精進改善？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這幾個個案發生之後，基本上，法制面的修法會比較緩慢，但是實務上，我們已經發了好幾次函給我們所屬的檢察機關，未來強制處分的實施，我們要特別督促法院去做強制處分。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我的意思是，在立法院還有社會高度重視之下，想當然爾，司法院和法務部應該不會再繼續怠惰下去，剩下就是怎麼樣精進改善。可是就在前兩天發生的事，新竹的虐童案，你們知道這個案子嗎？你們知道這個案子，所以我說沒有最扯、只有更扯，在新竹發生的虐童案，他300萬交保可是棄保潛逃，在事情發生之後，我們看到檢方和地院大家互踢皮球，責任都不在我，院方說我讓他交保，已經有媒體報導了，我有作成筆錄，你們都應該知道，因為有媒體報導，也作成筆錄。檢方說沒有，法院開庭竟然沒有通知檢察官到庭，也沒有讓檢察官表達意見，逕行裁定這個虐童嫌犯葉展皓以300萬元交保，附加限制住居，還要跟派出所報到，檢方說得振振有辭，院方說得理直氣壯，責任都不在自己，可是人嘞？人跑掉了！所以我就不懂了，我們在立法院開了那麼多次專案報告，有這麼多的委員在質詢，有這麼多的委員在關心，包含本席在內，你們都說會精進改善，結果這個案子扯不扯？它無關重大經濟犯罪、無關政治性的，它就是一個一般老百姓非常關心的虐童案，現在人跑掉了，你們竟然都說責任不在自己。你們各是檢方和法院的長官，我先請院方來說好了，請問司法院，這個責任在誰？你們不要告訴我沒有去瞭解這個案情喔！"],["王副秘書長梅英：向委員說明，法院在審理當中發生虐童案的被告棄保潛逃，司法院真的是非常遺憾，而且責無旁貸，我們自己確實應該要深自檢討。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個法官有沒有問題？他沒有通知檢察官到庭，只是以已經有媒體報導了為理由。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，可不可以容我說明一下？"],["王委員鴻薇：說。"],["王副秘書長梅英：那個案件是一個我們所稱的移審案件，就是檢察官終結他的偵查程序之後，他決定要起訴，然後把這個羈押的被告送到法院，法院依職權決定要不要羈押這一個被告。所謂的移審程序，跟偵查中聲請羈押不一樣的是，法律沒有規定他一定要通知檢察官。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以法官沒有錯？"],["王副秘書長梅英：不是……"],["王委員鴻薇：你的意思是法官沒有錯？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我要跟委員講的是，它有它的成因，因為檢察官其實自己也知道今天要開庭決定這個人要不要羈押，所以……"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在就問你，你就說法官有沒有錯、在這個案件上法官有沒有錯？"],["王副秘書長梅英：整個制度性的部分……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以是制度錯，人沒有錯？"],["王副秘書長梅英：在每個法院之間，大家的作法……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你講不出法官有沒有錯？"],["王副秘書長梅英：他們不夠嚴謹，所以我們現在也把整套程序的SOP重新做了……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以法官沒有疏失？有沒有疏失？"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，這分成兩層，一個就是核心的，他怎麼做決定的這個判斷……"],["王委員鴻薇：我給你很多時間說明了，我也要同樣給法務部說明，請問法務部次長，這個事件檢察官有沒有問題？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，檢察官是在羈押中送法院的，所以在這個被告送到法院之後，就由法院來決定這個被告是否繼續羈押，在訴訟制度上，就檢察官來講，他當然是在法院有所決定之後來做救濟，但這個個案的檢察官沒有被通知要到場蒞庭，事後也沒有收到沒有繼續羈押的裁定，所以法律上他是……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有錯？"],["黃次長謀信：不是有沒有錯，法律上他不知道裁定的理由。"],["王委員鴻薇：新竹地檢署說因為沒有收到裁定書，他沒有辦法提起抗告，他說而且都沒有通知他們到庭，所以請問一下檢察官有沒有錯？"],["黃次長謀信：原則上把裁定對外宣示，它也可能對外生效，但是你必須要送達，檢察官才知道你裁定的理由，才能夠提起抗告。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以，你作為檢察官的長官，你認為檢察官沒有錯？"],["黃次長謀信：我們檢察官他要對個案救濟，他基本上要有裁定……"],["王委員鴻薇：好了，看到了沒有、看到了沒有？不只是新竹地檢署或者新竹地院，兩邊踢皮球，如果我從司法院問到法務部，法務部沒有辦法說出檢察官有錯，司法院也說法官沒有錯，按照制度就是這樣走，那到底錯的是誰呢？倒楣的是被虐待的兒童嗎？倒楣的是家長、倒楣的是受害人嗎？這個案子到底出現什麼樣的問題？我剛剛講說我們每次對一些重大經濟犯罪，我們非常生氣，我們認為這裡面一定有貓膩，這個我不曉得有沒有貓膩啦！這個案子我不曉得有沒有貓膩，但它活生生地就出現在我們的眼前，一個虐童案300萬交保，他就跑掉了。再來剩一些時間，你們要怎麼樣？你們一定有精進的方式，我們也想當然爾啊！想當然爾你們會有精進，然後現在又告訴我制度出錯了，先請法務部，所以像這個案子該怎麼辦？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我剛剛也跟委員報告了，就是說這幾個重大案件脫逃之後，我們也要求檢察官在實行公訴的過程當中，他對法官強制處分的行使，我們要強力地……"],["王委員鴻薇：它算不算重大案件？這個新竹的虐童案。"],["黃次長謀信：其實不管重不重大，檢察官在實行公訴的時候，對法官強制處分權的行使，其實我們盡公訴代表人的責任去督促法院適當地行使它的強制處分權，我們已經發文、發函要求所屬檢察官必須要這麼做。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，來，司法院，這個案子你們要怎麼精進？"],["王副秘書長梅英：過往有關於移審程序，我們是尊重檢察官他要不要到，現在我們就是有通令，就是說請各法院，就是這種程序一定還是要正式通知檢察官。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以一定要通知檢察官到庭嘛！不要有機會再大家互踢皮球，是吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，現在我要求法務部跟司法院針對新竹市的虐童案的棄保潛逃提出報告給我們司法及法制委員會，然後你們該不該做出懲處也提出來，沒有道理啊！沒有道理大家都說沒有錯，然後就出現這樣的一個棄保潛逃，讓我們社會大眾無法接受，如果今天一個虐童案可以如此，重大經濟犯罪的被告逃掉了，連虐童案你都讓他逃掉了，然後都告訴我們：我們統統沒有錯。老實說我認為這是檢院雙方的怠惰，不把這個案子當回事嘛！今天如果是你的孩子被虐待，你會這樣對待嗎？我認為就是兩方都有怠惰，不要推給制度，制度是死的，人是活的。所以在這邊要求，主席，我要求司法院跟法務部針對這個案子提出報告，還有提出懲處的報告，這個事情不能不了了之，最後我們是懲罰制度嗎？懲罰這些冷冰冰的文字嗎？多久可以提出來？"],["主席：再麻煩法務部、司法院能夠……"],["王委員鴻薇：對不起，多久可以提出來？"],["主席：依照委員的要求提出相關的報告跟懲處，請問要多久才能夠提供？"],["王委員鴻薇：兩週內可以嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：1個月。"],["王委員鴻薇：1個月啊？那麼久啊！兩週可以嗎？可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：因為不可能是法務部直接下來調查，我們要透過臺高檢去調查，還有一個行政流程，是不是1個月？"],["王委員鴻薇：1個月，好，我要具體的，不要最後又給我看到統統推給制度，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席：再麻煩1個月內能提出，謝謝。下一位我們請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","林淑芬"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員羅智強等25 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二條文修正草案」案、\n(二)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員陳\n培瑜等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員陳亭妃等16人\n擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十九條及第四百五十一條之一條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員許智\n傑等22人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}