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請提供本部意見如下, 敬請大院指教。"},{"start":2875.438,"end":2901.909,"text":"一、民法約定利息之範圍是否納入手續費、保管費、違約金或其他明目之費用等應審慎考量。將手續費、保管費、違約金及其他相關費用納入約定利率的範圍計算而受最高約定利率上限牽制一事一、委員所提之修正草案之目的乃稀為避免融資公司業者巧立明目"},{"start":2902.489,"end":2919.822,"text":"收取費用以規避民法第二百零五條規定之上限利益良善為人因審慎考量以下事項一、利息與違約金的性質不同按民法第二百零五條規定違約金依其性質可以區分為審判賠償的預定額或這個"},{"start":2923.284,"end":2934.677,"text":"懲罰性違約金但是違約金的適用均須以債務不理行為前提與利息作為使用金錢的對價對性質上有所不同"},{"start":2938.681,"end":2959.646,"text":"所以委員提案若將違約金納入利息計算或適同利息可能影響兩者的定性及適用問題所以大院在斟酌另外依照民法第二百五十二條規定約定之違約金額過高者法院得減至相當數額是以民法對於違約金過高情形已有規定"},{"start":2962.967,"end":2979.094,"text":"本條將違金納入或視同利息的話是否可能架控民法該條是適用或是限縮法官依職權作檢的空間須暫為斟酌。第二相關費用的範圍因為是不確定的法律概念"},{"start":2980.194,"end":2995.362,"text":"實務上費用的種類也相當多尤其我國是民商合一的立法體力所以本條適用之範圍也包含了很多商業上的交易行為例如說公證、代書或是旅行債務所甚至會費等等的這一些若"},{"start":3001.946,"end":3025.745,"text":"該如何計算,事實上在實務上也有需要考量的地方。第三,若超過約定,契約會無效的話,債務人恐怕必須立刻依照不當得力的相關規定來返還他前面所借貸的金錢。所以台灣文字所遇發生的法律效果可能還是要再斟酌。"},{"start":3027.826,"end":3034.931,"text":"到底是整個契約都無效還是只有超過的部分才無效可能還要再討論最後"},{"start":3039.773,"end":3067.279,"text":"比較重要的一點就是這個修正條文的適用範圍因為我們的實務上這個融資公司的這些行為他未必皆是以借貸契約來做這個他的契約的形式所以如果說以其他的方式來規避這個規定的話那麼有可能本次的立法的目的沒有辦法達成但是如果我們把所有的"},{"start":3067.899,"end":3092.346,"text":"應付利息之債全部都列入的話也有可能是否是我們這次立法所謂打擊式範圍可能要再討論另外對於本條二項的standing跟民法第二百零六條的適用的關係有需要再加釐清跟討論之處另外附帶還有一個問題就是上次在修正"},{"start":3093.346,"end":3117.996,"text":"兩百零五條的時候其實有就這個民法再編的施行法有同時來做修正也就是說清救法適用的問題可能也要一併來討論來考量那麼為求審慎對於本條的修正本部已經在專家學者的諮詢會議裡面有所討論並且已經在昨日發文函詢"},{"start":3119.156,"end":3119.797,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":3141.932,"end":3152.849,"text":"委員提案的兩發媒應舒子感佩為因民法第二百零五條的適用範圍廣泛建請再為審慎考量以上報告進行主席及各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3154.465,"end":3182.996,"text":"好謝謝法務部黃社長的報告其餘機關報告請參閱書面機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄好那麼現在呢機關報告即已進行完畢現在開始詢答本會委員詢答時間8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位的陳俊委員發言"},{"start":3203.018,"end":3226.956,"text":"好謝謝主席我們鍾昭偉我們有請我們黃次長來請黃次長次長早市長我們今天要這個併案審查是有關民法第二百零五條的這個條文修正草案那主要是為了避免這個融資業者巧立名目來收費那我們這個明文規定就是在"},{"start":3228.766,"end":3245.547,"text":"約定的利率違約金與相關費用的總和就是不得超過16%的部分那許多業者可能就是剛剛稱呼剛剛次長您所做的這個說明方面會去巧立許多的名目來加收這個相關的費用"},{"start":3247.088,"end":3268.42,"text":"進而導致債務人難以償還的狀況我相信黃市長過去擔任立委的時候也可能接受過類似的陳情案件我們了解實際的經驗上確實任何民間貸款的管道都有可能設下許多的陷阱"},{"start":3269,"end":3288.828,"text":"尤其在當事人急著用錢的時候可能會傾向找放款快速的業者來借貸而未詳細的去了解其收費的這個方式和價目進而遭到業者以各種名目層層的剝削若現行的這個法規不夠周延的話業者能夠無視於這個利率的上限則條文形同虛設"},{"start":3293.334,"end":3320.622,"text":"就現行的這個民法206條的內容規定在全人除這個前條的限定的利息外不得以折扣或是其他方式巧取這個利益那與本次修法的目的大致相符那我想請教就是說我們法務部認為修法會與206條之間的適用產生什麼樣的問題是不是請我們次長大概回覆一下"},{"start":3320.902,"end":3342.718,"text":"是,謝謝委員的關心跟垂詢那我想這個部分呢這個在我們的討論中有提到因為這個我們民法的設計齁除了設定這個利率上限之外還有民法206條的一個這個強制規定但是實務上我們遇到一個問題就是說這個強制規定必須由法院來認定"},{"start":3344.099,"end":3366.655,"text":"也就是說呢如果這個當事人之間因為這個約定的這個這個利息經過這個巧立名目這個收取很多額外的費用甚至隱藏在他種的契約比如說買賣契約或是其他的這個形式之下的時候他要單獨看這個法條的文字來跟這個業者來做"},{"start":3367.756,"end":3371.439,"text":"實務上詢問司法院代表的意見他們也說在實務上相關的這一類案件經常都是依照辯論判決"},{"start":3384.788,"end":3403.92,"text":"也就是說事實上債務人根本沒有機會到法院去主張206條相關的適用當然如果依照大院委員目前提案的方向我們增訂205條的第二項的時候這個時候仍然有學者提醒我們"},{"start":3404.68,"end":3421.692,"text":"就是說不能因為我們訂了這個二百零五條的第二項說這些費用要計入這個利息的範圍之內就排除了二百零六條的適用所以我們會建議說未來這個看條文的文字怎麼調整或者是說至少在立法裡面說明"},{"start":3423.353,"end":3424.134,"text":"我們還是希望說我們制定這個相關的"},{"start":3452.632,"end":3468.057,"text":"規定是希望能夠來保護這些債務人因為說實在他是在財務狀況可能緊急狀況之下必須要去借錢可是在那個相關的契約或許這個"},{"start":3470.307,"end":3480.459,"text":"放款的業者所設下的一些內容沒有詳實的去閱讀的話往往都是一個非常大的陷阱所以我還是請法務部針對這個部分我們應該是要"},{"start":3483.652,"end":3487.254,"text":"對於我們規避利率上限的亂象,我們應該要如何嚴加控管?有沒有什麼比較具體的方式?"},{"start":3505.889,"end":3527.063,"text":"因為法務部主管是關於這個民法的條文關於這些現在大家比較關注的融資業者或是相關的這些金融或準金融的行為應該是由金管會或是相關其他的主管機關來針對這些行業來做一些行政管制的作為"},{"start":3528.304,"end":3543.433,"text":"大院也在4月份的時候開過兩次的委員會針對這個問題來做探討相信相關的主管機關應該會在行政管制面上來做加強我們今天來討論就是說在民法的部分是不是我們也可以把這種"},{"start":3544.193,"end":3544.713,"text":"．委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":3569.95,"end":3591.195,"text":"此文字的話或許他們在債務協商或是溝通的時候可以有一個比較明確的依據某種程度上可以來解決一定程度的問題當然並不能依靠一個條文的修正就可以解決所有的亂象恐怕還是要從我剛剛所說的對於這些業者的管制還是一個很重要的配套措施"},{"start":3591.755,"end":3616.94,"text":"好,謝謝市長那這部分就拜託我們法務部這個積極的去辦理能夠來做一個比較有效的管理另外就是針對這個矯正機關的部分那我特別感謝就我們鍾佳濱召委在星期一安排了去宜蘭這個監獄進行考察那我想說對於這個考察過程有一些這個"},{"start":3618.68,"end":3647.243,"text":"發言的問題跟次長您來做一個探討那在御所方面看起來這個我們目前的介護比的部分好像明顯的這個落差蠻大的在宜蘭御所看起來現在目前應該是1比9的介護比還是甚至更高是不是因為我們御方的這個相關的管理的人力不足"},{"start":3648.431,"end":3664.334,"text":"還是說我們這個收容的人數超收?到底是什麼原因?可不可以請市長您大概說明一下?是 跟委員報告那麼以全國來看我們的矯正機關的這個這個借戶比確實較其他國家是高出不少目前"},{"start":3665.035,"end":3677.402,"text":"整體平均大約是1比9,正如委員所說所以我們也不斷的在向行政院請證相關的緣額我們目前部內的目標是希望能夠朝向1比6這樣的一個"},{"start":3680.023,"end":3683.665,"text":"擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":3702.196,"end":3703.657,"text":"〈民法第二百零五條條文修正草案〉"},{"start":3722.305,"end":3733.731,"text":"因為我們說的這個收容人我們原則上還是會依照他的戶籍就近來做收容也方便他的家屬探視也方便他在復歸社會的時候可以重建他的社會關係所以說在這個"},{"start":3737.453,"end":3737.473,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":3756.573,"end":3756.753,"text":"法務部長"},{"start":3774.938,"end":3792.573,"text":"那個走了一趟之後我發現這個可能因為他這個建築物是81年建築的然後那我們經過0403之後也發現像立法院有一些建築物這個屋頂也有這個水泥塊剝落那我也希望說我們針對整個我們台灣所有的寓所"},{"start":3793.78,"end":3794.3,"text":"另外還有兩兩點建議一下就是在欸"},{"start":3815.526,"end":3840.894,"text":"我們之前有通過一個就是針對這個警察、消防、海巡、移民他們在夜間0點到6點有出勤的這個加班費那我也希望說我們法務部是針對這個部分也可以向上去爭取讓我們夜間執勤的這些同仁這個寓所裡面執勤的這些同仁也能夠受到這個相同的一個待遇"},{"start":3841.374,"end":3841.874,"text":"第二點就是這個借戶的這個危險加急"},{"start":3858.524,"end":3859.084,"text":"司法及法制委員"},{"start":3878.777,"end":3902.929,"text":"這個金額補貼的部分我們是不是法務部也可以相同的去爭取這兩項是跟委員報告這個深夜為勞津貼的部分事實上過去也有委員來向行政院提出不過人總目前還沒有答應但是我們法務部這邊已經責成矯正署積極的準備相關的文件跟說明"},{"start":3903.609,"end":3907.932,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．一）立法院第2會議"},{"start":3925.923,"end":3940.856,"text":"至於說危險佳績的部分據我們所了解事實上在108年的時候曾經調整過一次調整成現在的4500元它其實總共是分三級的我們也希望說這個部分我們部內也有在研議"},{"start":3945.94,"end":3970.94,"text":"希望能夠比照因為我們也需要準備相關的資料來跟人事總署來說明說我們要提高的依據跟這個相關的人員其他有領到這個金額的人員的這個勤務的性質有雷同的地方所以我們現在已經準備好相關的資料那麼我們也會一樣來向行政院來爭取來提出那也希望委員給我們最大的支持"},{"start":3971.24,"end":3971.58,"text":"羅委員智強發言"},{"start":4007.608,"end":4031.768,"text":"有請法務部金管會請黃次長還有金管會銀行局的侯祖密請問次長根據行政院消保處的統計2020年到2023年各地方政府受理涉及融資公司相關的消費爭議每年大概多少件"},{"start":4036.882,"end":4040.129,"text":"三百到四百件左右?你覺得數量多不多啊?"},{"start":4046.144,"end":4072.457,"text":"融資公司放款亂象其實已經不是單純市場秩序問題它逼著很多其實根本不具備金融知識的一些比如說初出社會的一些年輕人還沒進到社會就背負債務演變成社會問題所以本席也認同修正民法205條的一些相關的規定然後來杜絕融資業者巧立名目收取不合理的高利"},{"start":4073.337,"end":4092.843,"text":"但是法務部我看也列了很多要審慎考慮的修法理由也不是沒有道理不過我要想問那委員提案修法就是為了要解決融資公司貸款所衍生的相關問題嗎那如果說今天要審慎考慮的這麼多理由我不知道法務部有沒有對於解決問題有什麼良策"},{"start":4093.503,"end":4119.233,"text":"是跟委員報告那剛才我在報告的時候有特別提到我們在我們部內這個民法再編的研修小組有在上個月特別提請來針對委員的提案跟這個修法方向已經跟專家學者諮詢過了那所以呢我們原則上也是贊同要來這個修正這個條文來解決社會的問題但是因為我們的立法體力是民商合一"},{"start":4119.893,"end":4136.383,"text":"所以這個條文不是只會適用在我們剛剛所看到的這些違法的這些業者身上事實上我們所有的只要跟利息有關的商務行為或是我們政府機關的行為也都跟這條法律有關所以我們已經發文就我們諮詢的這個內容來跟我們所有的機關來做函詢"},{"start":4142.367,"end":4165.809,"text":"等我們收集完意見之後我們會中整之後針對我們這一次所提出來的問題我們會想辦法在條文裡面或在立法院裡面來理一個版本當然還有一個問題可能要請各位來協助就是說因為這個條文假設修正的話新舊法之間的適用可能也需要在施行法需要有一個提案的條文才能夠來做配套"},{"start":4166.61,"end":4166.77,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":4188.571,"end":4189.172,"text":"請教次長另外一個問題"},{"start":4207.186,"end":4221.017,"text":"你知道那個媒體島電子報的董事長吳子嘉已經去告發這個新華社記者趙博 涉有媒體報導內容涉有內亂罪你知道這個事情嗎"},{"start":4223.373,"end":4251.205,"text":"可能現在才聽委員提起我想請教一下吳子嘉的聲明裡面他認為說趙博是大陸地區人民據報載他的行為涉及壓制在場所有人的意識自主構成脅迫行為報載擅指該節目配合國台辦此顯色顛覆我國政府之內亂罪所以要委請律師告發"},{"start":4252.085,"end":4268.445,"text":"那如果報宅屬實電視台跟趙博涉嫌變更國體顛覆我國之普通內亂罪就是刑法第一百條那我想請教一下那目前高檢署你還不知道有沒有受理嘛對不對那裡面一個關鍵來了"},{"start":4271.192,"end":4288.233,"text":"吳子嘉號他申請要傳喚包括兩名自由時報記者包括陸委會主委邱垂正以及包括民進黨立委沈伯陽這件事情我想次長你總就有一些了解吧因為沸沸揚揚不太可能不知道嘛對不對"},{"start":4291.073,"end":4313.538,"text":"趙博 去盯騷東森電視台的某個政論節目有稍微看過新聞媒體的報導部長 次長 這個事情鬧這麼大你身為法務部 我們國家的法務的主管機關就像吳子嘉為什麼今天到高檢署去告請問高檢署是誰管轄的"},{"start":4314.963,"end":4342.019,"text":"高檢署是最高檢察署跟法務部法務部嘛對不對最高檢嘛對不對那我想請教您這事情你還是要有所掌握吧沒錯吧這個委員今天垂詢因為涉及個案偵查的我知道一定要講個案偵查不公開但你們七千五百多件偵查公開我上次都質詢過了沒關係但我只問你一個道理今天這個案子成案了之後的話"},{"start":4343.206,"end":4354.356,"text":"胡子佳很明確的指出囉兩位自由時報記者還有民進黨立委沈博洋為什麼要傳喚這三個人啊為什麼因為源頭就是三個人不是嗎"},{"start":4361.727,"end":4376.65,"text":"這件事所有的源頭就這三個人如果這件事屬實的話你就要循線去了解說到底事實真相如何嘛 對不對我就問嘛請問這個趙伯丁少趙伯丁少齁請問這個首先介入於報導是誰是哪個報紙報導自由時報嘛"},{"start":4387.583,"end":4412.524,"text":"所以這就是吳子嘉希望能傳喚這兩個自由時報的記者所以有爆料人喔爆料人就是這兩個自由時報記者但比這兩個自由時報記者更早的爆料人是誰?市長你知道嗎?就是民進黨立委沈博洋啦他說兩個月前就知道了而且部長你不太合格喔為什麼你知道嗎?他兩個月前就跟國安單位報告了"},{"start":4413.79,"end":4442.275,"text":"國安單位當然可能部長說未必把你算進去啦 次長啊 把你算進去啦 對不對但是法務部直施 對不對 我們的犯罪偵查次長請問 這個國安單位如果接到之後 這要偵辦法務部應該也要參與協助吧我想是由檢察署的檢察官齁 專責的檢察官來做服務 來做參與所以我希望我們的檢察機關 沒有我剛剛我是問你道理而已喔那我就想請教一下 很明確爆料人就三個啊"},{"start":4443.536,"end":4463.961,"text":"兩位自由時報記者加上偉大的天眼通的民進黨立委沈博洋啊 兩個月前就神知道啦那我想請教一下一個問題齁我們的陸委會的副主委楊文傑對此案的評語是什麼你知道嗎他說沒有爆料人欸沒有爆料人欸你有看報紙吧"},{"start":4469.326,"end":4471.588,"text":"他的說法可能跟這個委員現在的說法有點出入"},{"start":4489.628,"end":4490.888,"text":"梁文傑說沒有爆料人要嘛就睜眼說瞎話"},{"start":4509.178,"end":4536.9,"text":"要嘛就是什麼呢他可能是認為沈伯陽不夠格當爆料人因為沈伯陽就是個造謠假訊息的造謠龍頭啊所以這種造謠者的話可能我們梁文傑根本不是認為是爆料啊那我要回到請問一下我們的那個次長我上次質詢我們院長我有講過我們用過去民進黨八年用社會秩序維護法主要是辦造謠啦對不對"},{"start":4539.246,"end":4550.88,"text":"你知道辦了多少屆嗎?有七百多屆 六百多屆然後有五百屆法院裁定不罰啦所以我在講說民進黨很愛辦所謂的造謠啦 對不對"},{"start":4554.622,"end":4575.993,"text":"那我想請教一下 沈博洋今天如果說他是造謠的話 請問法務部要不要辦 該不該辦跟委員報告社會法相關的規定是由警察機關來先發動 那法務部這邊警察機關我問你就法律意見問你嘛 你不是經常發表法律意見嗎"},{"start":4577.435,"end":4594.555,"text":"民進黨這麼厲害對不對遇到謠言 造謠就去辦人家民眾還辦到說分工毀業七成多被民進黨辦的造謠法院都打臉欸超級棒的 一級棒的一個辦案效率啊沈伯陽他現在歸索起來算不算造謠啊"},{"start":4595.794,"end":4621.388,"text":"這個我想要由陳委員自己來說明當然啦他現在開始歸索起來跟大家講說這個有點疑似開始閃避問題那最重要的是梁文傑啊梁文傑說沒有爆料者省不讓就爆料者他要嘛就假爆料要嘛就是假爆料造謠要嘛真爆料結果呢是國安單位今天荒帶職務不查啦就這兩個可能性啦"},{"start":4623.129,"end":4646.234,"text":"當然不管怎樣我希望法務部這個事情既然吳子嘉已經去告發了能夠好好把爆料人請檢查機關斟酌案情爆料人要不要去約談一下不要當作是256沒發生 謝謝我想高檢署的甲官會議職權來進行依法辦理期待"},{"start":4651.36,"end":4653.141,"text":"謝謝羅委員 謝謝黃次長接下來請專委員瑞雄發言謝謝主席 有請我們法務部黃次長來請黃次長委員好"},{"start":4676.036,"end":4695.178,"text":"市長好我延續剛剛我們那個陳委員所提到是針對我們整個在監索這一些你們的好同仁的一些權益來做一個質詢就是說我記得在今年520這個"},{"start":4697.724,"end":4714.148,"text":"新政府交接之前行政院局合併警消、漁民及空勤深夜危牢津貼。從6月1日開始,針對深夜12點到清晨6點,第一線執行勤務同仁知己每小時100元實質補貼。我想內政部"},{"start":4721.924,"end":4745.704,"text":"部長曾經講過,就是說這些外勤人員的工作性質,不分晝夜將輪班,工作時間長而且危老程度高。這個我們都肯認,這個我們都肯認。但是,是不是也請次長法務部這邊要特別去留意,因為你們所挾的矯正署裡面這監所的管理人員,他們其實我看一看也符合這些條件。"},{"start":4747.366,"end":4769.875,"text":"市長,既然符合這些條件的話,你去把它看啊,上個月我們屏東才發生啊,就監守管理員在收容人在作亂的時候啊,就突然昏迷醉後,送醫不治,這個管理人員啊,我們看到這些,我們也都覺得啦,這個法令在一個國家的政府體制裡面啊,符合要件啊,總不能你內政部所挾的由,啊你法務部底下的又覺得好,又,又,監,監守的管理人員他一定會拿這個來做比較啦。"},{"start":4776.897,"end":4786.866,"text":"那我想這個在堅守管理員也必須要20小時輪班這樣的一個勤務長期在這個夜間高風險的環境這樣去做工作所以是不是"},{"start":4788.427,"end":4793.149,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案案。（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會及法制委員會等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案案。．完整會議"},{"start":4814.62,"end":4829.381,"text":"過去透過委員來做爭取的時候人總的回覆確實輕忽了我們的矯正機關所屬這些人員他確實也有在深夜必須要外出來做危險性的勤務這樣的一個事實"},{"start":4830.582,"end":4849.448,"text":"所以我們已經準備好相關的資料那今日就會來向行政院提案提出我認為市長這個民法部責無旁貸因為在政府部門裡面你把它分部門條件符合有的部門有有的沒有這個不通這個是交由一下那針對今天我相信要審的這個利息之債"},{"start":4856.481,"end":4877.02,"text":"我對今天的一個提案我們可以看得出來,這個社會對於這個約定利息太高了,這個大家都討厭尤其外面這一些現在的一些融資公司巧利名目收取高額這樣的一個費用,造成一些民眾尤其是那些辛苦人"},{"start":4877.62,"end":4878.28,"text":"司法及法制委員會議"},{"start":4893.61,"end":4920.033,"text":"那都在18個18你看那個銀行法第47條之一第二項你規定循環利率不得超過年利率15%2020年民法205條修訂超過約定的利率無效因為現在呢這簡單來講啦過去我們把銀行的最高利率調低了有超過了那利率是無效還可以主張債權人要還那個超過部分的一個利息但是修法以後我們確實看到"},{"start":4920.734,"end":4948.473,"text":"很多人還是巧立名目你這個是覺得非常討厭手續會保管會違約金不同的一個規則來逃避這16%的一個限制所以今天才會有委員來提出這樣的一個提案這個我們都懂但問題就是說那其實如果去看借貸的年率不得超過16%不要忘記我們一個叫做當鋪我以前在做台北市議員的時候那個當鋪業者台北市公立的那個年終獎金都特別高"},{"start":4950.094,"end":4951.115,"text":"為什麼連中獎金特別高?"},{"start":4951.115,"end":4961.243,"text":"因為賺錢公立當鋪當然也都那麼賺錢 不要去講說民間啦 真的是很賺錢所以在當鋪業法裡面第11條特別規定說當鋪業的合法利率高達幾%呢?30%你給我看 市長 你也是法律人一個最高16% 一個最高30%人性一定會挑比較低的啊可是呢 台灣的當鋪現在幾間你知道嗎?"},{"start":4978.777,"end":4981.866,"text":"一兩千斤合法的"},{"start":4983.001,"end":4993.284,"text":"不法的不講喔!合法的喔!所以這真的很可怕!所以我們去...會去這樣找的人喔!會去當鋪找的人也會有苦衷啦!我不要去問啦!我說你們以前有多少人比較多?他說有某大同電鍋來電檔的啦!有某米皮來的啦!以前國家時代什麼的都有!那個叫解決藍美之急嘛!所以不得已才去選擇當鋪可是我們去看其他國家"},{"start":5009.768,"end":5021.597,"text":"我昨天第一個 這兩天我第一個想到的是說我們很少炒德國你去看德國 你去看日本在德國他們民法法典裡面246條的規定的法定利率4%"},{"start":5023.973,"end":5044.02,"text":"如果遲延幾戶在臥部旅行情況之下德國的民法288條基礎利率再加個5%這最高是9%欸過來啦我們當年我們很多民法我們很多也抄德國可是我們很多又跑去抄日本你去看德國那個整個大典當業者有分私營跟公營平均利率也只有12%啊我們才30%"},{"start":5046.701,"end":5074.49,"text":"所以我整理整個律例我就發現很奇怪臨近的我們去看日本他們以金錢為標的消費借貸這個部分年律例上限按照借貸金額去定上限本金不滿10萬元年律例跟我們以前阿伯修一樣20% 典當業者阿他們又比我們便宜是3到8%阿我們是30%所以我們這個法律喔我這個我都不知所措你知道嗎所以我的一總結來講就是說德國的年律率最高是9%"},{"start":5075.99,"end":5076.35,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":5098.752,"end":5099.492,"text":"內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會"},{"start":5114.002,"end":5114.762,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議"},{"start":5134.347,"end":5161.784,"text":"當然那這個也是因為不同的融資的市場他所受的管制是不同為什麼這麼多人為什麼不去借這個一般銀行的這個3% 2%要去借這個高利貸我們俗稱的這些或是當鋪這些這麼高的利率因為他們所受的這個擔保或是管制的條件不一樣所以在不同的這個借貸市場裡面行政管制可能會有不同的考量"},{"start":5163.455,"end":5182.688,"text":"當然我們現在今天我們所要修的這個民法我們修正之後它仍然會是一個普通法的位階所以如果對於這個典當業的這個30%覺得有這個覺得不合時宜的地方就像我們過去從這個最高利率上限民法的20%把它調降到16%一樣"},{"start":5183.729,"end":5185.07,"text":"一般民眾常常事後有的還不起錢有的認為說他被訛詐了"},{"start":5203.787,"end":5228.513,"text":"他動不動他會想去提告重力罪其實哪有那麼簡單我們這個整個重力罪344條你去把它看啦他是趁人急迫輕率或沒有經驗或難以求助之處境待與金錢其他物品取得跟原本顯不相當是啊 跟原本都顯不相當啊可是前面又是講說急迫輕率無經驗很多人去就實在是要件會不會符合其實都很難講啊"},{"start":5229.773,"end":5258.864,"text":"你覺得我們以前大一在討論民法總則七十二條開始跟你說主張消費借貸違反公序兩屬無效我們以前看很多判決但是法院就直接說你這個違反公序兩屬你這個無效沒有請求權七十四條主張對方是暴力行為我要把你給撤銷問題就是說這個以現在來看今天這樣的一個修法本席其實也可以體會到說來提案委員對這種消費借貸及巧立名目很多人的一個不滿但也不要忘記喔"},{"start":5259.946,"end":5275.15,"text":"你像一些融資的租賃這些那個其實都是借貸的性質那這一些你如果說我們在這個貿然這樣把它做一個修法其他你們沒有再去諮詢對各個產業會產生衝擊的話這個其實這個問題會很大所以市長我倒認為你們也應該去把"},{"start":5286.243,"end":5314.868,"text":"本院委員所提案的這個肯認他們提案的這樣的一個初衷但是會產生的一個衝擊其實你們也必須要去應該更謹慎或者說更廣範圍的請業界來提供對他們的衝擊會是什麼否則說實在話這種東西明確老百姓是喜歡的喔老百姓一聽到說吼那麼多亂七八糟的動不動就弄那麼多名目啊什麼手續費用相關的一些費用可是這個這個"},{"start":5316.208,"end":5335.436,"text":"這個很難去做一個界定我不曉得簡單最後次長聽聽你們法務部的意見是謝謝委員的關心但我們的心情都跟提案委員還有各位委員是相同的我們也對於巧立明牧這樣的亂象事實上本來他就疑似就是有可能會落入民法206條所不許"},{"start":5337.057,"end":5352.478,"text":"此行為中,我們認為要有一個更清楚的規定來做一個制約。但誠如我們在今天報告所提出來的,也確實如剛剛委員所說的,這個合法的行為跟這個疑似是巧立弥勒的行為,"},{"start":5353.719,"end":5376.889,"text":"事實上是很難在文字上面去做區別所以影響範圍又這麼大因為我們是民商合一的立法體力跟委員剛剛所說的這個德國跟日本都不一樣所以我們也確實有必要來徵詢各行各業各主管機關的意見所以我們已經在經過內部討論之後有將我們的初步的看法"},{"start":5377.709,"end":5406.246,"text":"來含詢給所有的主管機關希望他們針對他們所管理的這些業別當然委員剛剛所提到的銀行業、當鋪業等等對於這一條的修正會不會受到衝擊或影響那他們會提供相關意見給我們那麼之後我們會根據大家的意見回來中整之後再提出在文字上在立法理由上比較妥適完備的版本出來提供大院來做參考"},{"start":5406.866,"end":5429.565,"text":"你去把它看看我們整部民法過去從約定的律例你看最高不能超過20%那一部民法法典這樣子去抄人家抄下來以後是幾十年連動都不能動那你修完了以後你現在貿然去把它去把它說要把它降下來沒有去考到各產業的一個衝擊或者各個法律之間的一個競合"},{"start":5431.019,"end":5431.179,"text":"主席"},{"start":5463.604,"end":5477.064,"text":"主席我們請黃次長來請黃次長委員好次長早今天很高興次長能夠到本委會來列席謝謝委員"},{"start":5479.202,"end":5495.964,"text":"市長的這個過去這個法學的專業素養素來受大家各界包括實務界包括我們這個立法院大家同仁的肯定希望說市長在這個現在的工作崗位上面能夠發揮你個人的這個"},{"start":5498.257,"end":5498.457,"text":"法律專長"},{"start":5522.13,"end":5523.912,"text":"犯罪手法其實他當然因為他是一個"},{"start":5545.632,"end":5550.253,"text":"本委員會正在審查程序中的打詐司法裡面的三法,是在本委員會來審查"},{"start":5569.128,"end":5588.803,"text":"我個人就是說,針對現在這樣子的這種以公私帳戶,因為公私帳戶他有他有他跟一般的人頭帳戶他不太一樣,公私帳戶他有有比較這個這個特別的一些特性,就是他的一些他的出入的金額一般你比較不會引起這個金融業靈慧的這個這個問題,所以警覺了,對,所以我個人針對現在這樣子的"},{"start":5596.38,"end":5604.141,"text":"的這個申辦人頭詐騙案的用公司帳戶申辦人頭詐騙的案件的狀況我們法務部有沒有掌握"},{"start":5604.833,"end":5630.208,"text":"是我想陳如委員所提到的這個今天早上的新聞這個刑事警察大隊已經發動搜索偵破這一個個案之後也移送這個地檢署來做偵辦當中那麼我們對於這個部分因為其實公司的帳戶法人的帳戶過去作為人頭帳戶之用也不是沒有但如果說陳如委員所提到現在因為我們洗錢防治"},{"start":5630.808,"end":5631.468,"text":"．立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":5652.199,"end":5659.083,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會及法制委員會等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第1會議"},{"start":5673.65,"end":5699.756,"text":"目前我們所設定的包括洗錢房子等是一個破口所以這部分刑法部要提早來研議我們會跟金管會因為這個賬戶現在的這個新設開設相關的前置的這個審查還是由金管會這邊來做處理那公司賬戶是不是有這個成立的過程太過容易或是等等或是說他的交易行為什麼異常我們可以來做交流來做研討來做預防"},{"start":5700.714,"end":5719.204,"text":"那這個針對今天的這個民法第205條的修正案,我想剛才前面幾位委員都有提到,大概我們這個提案委員,我看他今天這樣子的提案委員跟今天所排定的議程基本上受到不分黨派大家都支持,支持這個"},{"start":5722.345,"end":5748.122,"text":"包括今天的議程以及這個大家都認為說相關的這些這些民間的這些這些金融公司的這些規範齁這個應該要加強齁那但是我看這個包括法務部齁包括我們司法院的這個書面報告齁都對這一條的這個修正齁這單獨就就205條做這樣子的修正齁都有一些疑慮啦齁尤其是他跟206條的這些相關的的的關聯齁"},{"start":5752.425,"end":5760.134,"text":"這些有些部分我看這個法務部的意見因為今天兩個版本其實這兩個委員的版本也不太一樣一個我們這個國務委員的版本是超過16%的部分無效"},{"start":5767.745,"end":5789.429,"text":"主席主席的版本是如果超過16%整個契約就無效了所以這個這個這個就就這光兩個委員在這個部分他也也不太一樣但是我看這個我們法務部的書面報告這部分剛才剛才大概有幾位委員都提這個我們次長大概也也講得蠻清楚的就是說針對針對這個"},{"start":5792.607,"end":5793.769,"text":"這個修法跟206條的適用關係這部分是不是請次長再"},{"start":5798.597,"end":5820.695,"text":"進一步的來說明一幕上所顯示的最高法院103年度這個判決事實上它的背景是在修法前所以它會有請求權存在與否的問題但是現在我們的修法已經是無效了所以其實應該是要用新法來做討論現在我們還要再修這個法"},{"start":5825.694,"end":5833.78,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":5849.17,"end":5872.677,"text":"那我想這個很多的民法學者又跟我們提醒這一點所以我們會看是要在文字裡面去敘述市長這部分我想每一個委員都一樣希望我們法務部能夠盡快的就這些相關的這些法案能夠做出新的那個就是你們能夠有相對的相對的針對目前的這205條的修正你們能夠提出你們法務部相對的意見那這個這個部分我想這個剛才的幾位委員的"},{"start":5877.679,"end":5887.624,"text":"大概都已經問得蠻清楚我先請市長請回主席我們現在請經管會今天經管會是銀行局主祕"},{"start":5892.886,"end":5909.432,"text":"主委早了,我想剛才我跟市長的這些對話裡面其實有很多的部分其實就牽涉到金管會了這個包括說我們提到的現在新的這個現在新型態的以這個公司以這個公司的人頭公司的帳戶來進行"},{"start":5910.752,"end":5931.966,"text":"作為詐騙的人頭賬戶,這樣子相關的規定。另外就是說,我們今天所討論的主題,除了這個民法,就民法205條,直接就這個利息的上限做規定之外,我們目前這個有關這個租賃公司的這些融資業務,我想這部分是我們金管會所主管的業務。這個我"},{"start":5935.219,"end":5936.943,"text":"我本席在111年的12月7號我在財政委員會我就曾經質詢過質詢過有關這個"},{"start":5946.961,"end":5967.203,"text":"現在大概我們一般的租賃公司它的業務大概有幾種形態,包括資本的租賃,包括營業性租賃,重要的是商品買賣的分期付款,所謂先買後付,BMPL這個部分,另外可能還有一些營收賬款的買賣,資金的待遇等等。"},{"start":5967.83,"end":5993.212,"text":"但是我那時候就針對這個BMPL我就有提出質詢那時候金管會的答覆是說會跟這個相關的業者來進行溝通溝通的結果我們看到就是說我們目前金管會的方式是用這個業者的自律規範來規範現在目前的這個租賃公司的融資業務對不對"},{"start":5995.254,"end":6019.949,"text":"是的委員目前來說就是我們有請臺北市租賃公會就是參考這個大家的意見來訂了這個他們也針對這樣的一個所謂BMPL業務訂了一個自律規範這部分就是我最後要跟你們溝通我們看到各國的立法例你針對相關這種租賃公司每一個國家大家都有相關的法令在規範只有我們用自律規範"},{"start":6021.533,"end":6046.326,"text":"我們目前對這些租賃公司沒有這個法律的約束力的我們美國有用這個消費者信用保護法連香港香港他們用放款人條例就來規範這些租賃公司日本他們有貸金業法澳門這個租賃這個融資租賃公司法律制度只有台灣用治癒規範在規範用治癒規範在規範它最大的問題是這些治癒規範第一個它也沒有法則"},{"start":6050.305,"end":6063.755,"text":"自律規範沒有法則啊所以你違反這個自律規範他沒有任何的法則第二就是這個自律規範其實我個人就按照這個工會的自律規範去看這幾家業者齁我看這幾家業者網站連這幾大業者都沒有確實的按照自律規範在執行啊他們說像自律規範第二條我這邊就舉這個例子了自律規範第二條他說"},{"start":6078.687,"end":6094.411,"text":"這個先買後付業者應該要建立客訴專責單位結果上網去看這些公司都沒有什麼客訴他們都沒有成立客訴專責單位啊他們只有在網站上寫一個所謂聯絡我們的電話就這樣也沒有說明說這聯絡我們這個公司的電話打去是總機呢還是是專責的客服單位呢"},{"start":6105.373,"end":6128.976,"text":"因為跟委員報告是本身目前的租賃公司其實他並不是金管會主管的金融機構不過就是我們繼續說社會上有這樣一個期待所以我們這邊有先透過租賃公司的部分請這個租賃公會這邊是不是能夠去做這樣一個研議那目前來說事實上有所謂的三大租賃公司那他們目前都是上市的公司所以上市公司部的話當然是金管會來主管所以我們這個"},{"start":6129.537,"end":6144.458,"text":"但是你們盡管會主管,你們現在只用自律規範來規範這些租賃公司,我個人認為是相當的不足啦。包括他本身就沒有罰則,包括你這個自律規範本身他們業者的遵守程度也都很低啦齁。這個我時間也到。"},{"start":6146.941,"end":6161.476,"text":"這部分我還是希望說監管會能夠提升我們對這些融資公司他們的監管的強度但是這個部分也特別要包括在今天的修法裡面就是說"},{"start":6163.532,"end":6189.417,"text":"一般的這個民眾他的這個融資管道大概就你有財力健全的他就到金融機構去直接去貸款接下來第二層才是我們今天所討論的這些相關的融資公司那如果我們這部分我們把他緊縮到一個程度之後可能真正社會需要他就往第三層跑了他就往這個地下金融去地下錢莊借錢了"},{"start":6191.089,"end":6215.269,"text":"所以這個如何拿捏這個中間這一層這個融資公司的這個監理跟他們的相關利潤其實像今天的修法法務部認為說這個第206條這個巧取利益但事實上司法實務在判決的時候最常出現的就是說這算不算巧取利益"},{"start":6217.157,"end":6237.498,"text":"連司法院的報告上面就寫說因為借貸還款也有一定的合理成本費用所以他這些他所立的這些名目收的這些費用到底是合法的成本費用還是巧立還是巧取利益這個在深圳實務上的爭論就在這裡"},{"start":6239.915,"end":6255.048,"text":"所以這部分我個人也是比較支持這個法務部的立場希望說這個我們能夠等待法務部就相關的法規做盤整之後提出法務部的自己的版本之後我們再來進行審查以上謝謝委員好謝謝沈委員謝謝祖密"},{"start":6268.702,"end":6292.03,"text":"接下來我們請鍾佳濱總委員上台質詢主席因為在剛剛的提案說明的部分因為主席的關係所以我先容許我剛剛的提案說明我很簡短的說明一次本席的提案說明是鑒於近年來常有融資公司業者巧立手續費"},{"start":6293.03,"end":6315.809,"text":"保管費違約金等名目藉以規避現行年利率16%之限制而依據行政院消費者保護處的統計過去每年約有三四百件該類的融資相關消費爭議那因為銀行是特許行業金管會對它有行政指導權並且能近期精簡因此銀行多不至於危害消費者"},{"start":6316.63,"end":6335.934,"text":"但是這些販稱融資公司的業者並無人監督實務上也常見他們經常又使大學生、事業者或是上班族進行抄袋製造更多的社會問題因此本席原提案修正民法第二百零五條第一項明定超過利率上限之契約無效並且增加第二項明定伴隨債務產生之各項規費違約應納入共同計算好那麼現在主席我就有請"},{"start":6344.035,"end":6354.539,"text":"法務部黃次長金管會銀行局侯祖密同時邀請經濟部陳副署長和消保處陳副處長並同協助說明。"},{"start":6366.127,"end":6391.239,"text":"市長其實呢我先先秀一下一些報紙的一些媒體報導啊他說呢租賃公司不看收入證明高利貸放給小白因此呢只在付償啊因為多數的家長呢不忍心孩子欠錢他就會出來清償又或者說透過融資公司的貸款38萬先扣手續費9%代辦公司呢要手續費加兌保費實際上只拿到30萬甚至最後還了52萬"},{"start":6392.952,"end":6407.338,"text":"立律高達51%請問一下次長過去在您的服務的民眾經驗中有沒有常遇到這樣的民眾的爭議是我想我們都會遇到都會遇到嗎那另外呢我們的副處長還有主秘還有這個副署長"},{"start":6411.477,"end":6432.253,"text":"民法第二百零五條的修正條文我剛已經介紹過了但是主要本席的修正目的是防止融資公司巧烈名目收費那我來介紹一下幾個情況請大家來瞭解大家聽過分期付款吧分期付款就是我消費者我要買車可能要一百萬那我就跟銀行"},{"start":6434.702,"end":6461.545,"text":"銀行會幫我去銀行辦個分期付款那把我買的車呢設定抵押給銀行那銀行呢就要把車款呢付給了車商然後呢我未來就是定期的去付銀行的分期付款是不是這樣子是所以分期付款呢一定加上我跟銀行的利息嘛好這是正常的情況那麼是什麼融資註定呢融資註定就是說這個承租人呢他的信用啊銀行不會貸款給他所以他找了一個"},{"start":6462.265,"end":6462.585,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6485.831,"end":6507.276,"text":"沒有辦法去融資所以透過融資租賃公司去用租賃的形態實際上取得融資購車的需求是這樣那等到這個租約期滿呢他產值呢搞不好陳住人還可以跟他買大概是這樣好但是我們現在看一下現在的情況呢什麼情況有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬有沒有聽過有請問後面祖密有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬年輕的上班族學生"},{"start":6515.39,"end":6516.651,"text":"副處長,您有沒有聽過?有聽過新聞報導。知道怎麼發作嗎?副處長。"},{"start":6527.766,"end":6527.987,"text":"主席"},{"start":6545.478,"end":6570.837,"text":"建立三十萬但是呢你要有機車很奇怪建你錢要你機車幹嘛設定給我嗎沒有機車沒有辦法設定抵押但是呢他說你我給你三十萬購買你所有的機車的使用權車子還是你的我跟你買這輛車的使用權然後呢你每個月要付我租金這樣了解了齁我三十萬是買你機車組的使用權"},{"start":6572.045,"end":6590.384,"text":"但是呢你有沒有拿到30萬沒有他給你7扣8扣他就呢只給你21萬那這一個30萬誰出呢這個30萬啊其實呢他跟受害者拿了他的各種所謂的這個租車的相關資料他幫受害者去申請銀行的銷貸信用貸款"},{"start":6593.497,"end":6612.332,"text":"那很奇怪啊受害者自己跟銀行借不到錢但是融資公司有辦法用他的證件去用他本人做信用貸款跟銀行做結果呢這個受害者他其實就背負了一個銀行的負債他每個月交給融資公司的租金融資公司把他拿去給銀行還本息"},{"start":6613.106,"end":6638.116,"text":"一旦這個受害者他付不起這個租金車子是他的他付不起使用車子的租金銀行就開始來跟他追債請問次長那個模式是不是你所知道的是我有看過這樣的情形他就很巧妙的用話術事實上用受害者的身份去辦信用貸款那本身他又拿受害者的車子虛假造了一個使用權的購買"},{"start":6640.083,"end":6669.025,"text":"然後呢再把錢給他那要還租金然後去幫他還他的貸款好那還有一種情況叫做汽車超貸永遠還不完而且越欠越多正常來講我們買車現在很多啊並出社會沒有多久年輕人啊一開始就欠一輛車啊一百萬還可以怎麼樣還可以有現金什麼意思融資公司說來買車一百萬我幫你付然後呢我給你貸款了一百二十萬債務那你扣掉手續費你可以拿十二萬現金"},{"start":6670.755,"end":6694.33,"text":"買一輛車一百萬還可以拿現金天體要這麼好的事情嗎沒有他就負債負債一百二十萬他前六個月可能還了本利息還了六期還了三十萬債務打消的本金二十萬融資公司說你還了六期了我幫你整合債務然後呢我再找二胎找B融資公司融資公司說我可以借你一百五十萬"},{"start":6695.899,"end":6723.801,"text":"一輛車經過這樣的一胎到二胎本來借一百二現在變成借一百五但是一百五十萬現在拿一百萬把它原來的前一胎代償一百這五十萬B融資公司沒有給他五十萬他只拿到三十五扣了十五萬的手續費後續他要付一百五十萬債務的分期的一個償還而且這樣的越還負債越多請問次長有沒有聽過這樣的一個目前坊間的做法"},{"start":6725.954,"end":6725.974,"text":"陳副處長"},{"start":6741.105,"end":6764.179,"text":"一個是副組長,您知道民間所謂的汽車超額貸,越貸越多,越貸永遠還不完,知道這樣運作嗎?第一次嘛齁,現場有沒有人之前知道借過的?好像沒有。我也是花了很多時間,民眾因為超額貸越還欠越多,我們才知道原來融資公司是這樣操作的。好,問題來了,來。"},{"start":6766.502,"end":6783.973,"text":"市長我們今天就是因為這些融資租賃公司透過各種的話術的包裝或者是機車借30萬他是把機車假設是一個使用權的使用借貸關係然後呢把你去設定信用貸款"},{"start":6784.963,"end":6805.256,"text":"另外一個是越代越多是用一胎二胎的包裝現在你們法務部的書面報告說本席的提案他說只能適用借貸契約那融資租賃不能涵蓋那請問我剛剛講的這些例子有什麼方法可以解決如果刪除我提案當中的借貸兩個字有沒有辦法去針對這些狀況來解決問題"},{"start":6809.792,"end":6830.805,"text":"陳如剛才委員為我們所詳細解說的這個實務上巧立名目甚至變更契約的類型的形式來完成他這個操帶或是借貸的這個目的事實上樣態非常多委員所歷史的這些其實都是造成我們在適用民法這一條上面的困難"},{"start":6831.545,"end":6832.065,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":6846.872,"end":6849.293,"text":"二）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第1會議"},{"start":6870.322,"end":6885.1,"text":"所以這個部分事實上還是我們一開始有講有之前委員催詢的可能還是要加強行政的監理跟管理才有辦法去遏止這樣的脫法行為因為其實剛剛我們所看到這些例子"},{"start":6885.6,"end":6910.433,"text":"假設他進到法院事實上透過司法的審理有可能法院會把他做實質認定或者是用兩百零六條來處理但是我們現在看到比較困難的是會去接這種借貸的很多都是比較弱勢的債務人他們沒有辦法去負擔這個司法程序的這些成本跟這個過程所以我們這個民法雖然已經有規定了但是他們用不到"},{"start":6911.033,"end":6940.279,"text":"好是剛剛次長你講了很重要一點很多這種借貸的受害者他是因為在正常的金融體系他沒有辦法借到錢他的信用在正規的銀行看起來信用不好才會有這些民間的借貸公司用那個融資租賃的方式來跟他詐騙所以侯祖密我們常常說我們的銀行要什麼普惠金融是不是30萬的小額貸款銀行借不到結果一個"},{"start":6940.981,"end":6954.428,"text":"議員"},{"start":6954.707,"end":6956.808,"text":"議員郭國文等18人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11會議"},{"start":6977.577,"end":6979.759,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":7002.239,"end":7030.025,"text":"一旦你的分期付款的模式被破解比如說你後悔了你不要了他說你拆了包裝不能退但是你的債務還是存在不因為你退貨就能解除這個借貸關係是不是這樣子是好那我們再來往下看所以呢這裡面我們剛剛講到還要學到行政的方法根據我們金融服務業提供金融商品或服務前說明契約重要內容及介入風險辦法請問這是不是銀行局所管的"},{"start":7032.028,"end":7034.189,"text":"銀行局跟你們都有關聯啦,好,一樣他說這裡要介入再往下看"},{"start":7059.983,"end":7079.76,"text":"那麼根據行政院的目前我們正在審理中即將送二讀的洗錢防治法修正草案的第五條融資性租賃市長這個洗房法是我們防護部是那這裡的融資性租賃是不是我指的剛剛那兩種方式都是屬於融資性租賃規範的含色範圍內"},{"start":7083.441,"end":7088.231,"text":"那這裡面在第10條說要留下交易紀錄要保存而且法務部要匯商相關機關來訂資是不是這樣?"},{"start":7090.351,"end":7118.689,"text":"我想這個部分要說明的是委員所提到的目前所提到的洗房法相關的草案的內容事實上都是現行法已有規定之調整點這個調製那所以我們這邊所要求他所適用是關於洗房衣物的規定那但是我們今天所討論的其實是一個監理行為那所以說是否在他的監理行為裡面要納入這些委員所講的這個相關的監理接錄啊錄音錄影啊"},{"start":7119.549,"end":7139.004,"text":"還是要由目的事業主管機關來主理?目的事業主管機關會是誰?我們來開始考驗一下對方融資性租賃公司是屬於金管會管的嗎?主任秘密是不是你們管的?目前是沒有那當然提到所謂洗錢房子法的部分有關洗錢房子的部分是我們分離的好那我們趕快那麼所以呢我是訴求希望未來在行政院的洗錢房子法當中可以要求融資公司"},{"start":7147.17,"end":7161.706,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員郭國文等18人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條條文修正草案．一）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條條文修正草案．"},{"start":7167.932,"end":7193.512,"text":"剛剛所講的那些內容如果有一個定型化契約以後在法院訴求的時候呢就有所依據啦是不是請次長回去我們會同去考量一下我想這個因為剛剛依照那個條文還是要由目的事業主管機關來會商法務部來做那我們還是要請因為剛剛那個機關會有提到在洗房的範圍內他們是這個指定的專門目的事業主管機關沒有錯那我們再跟他們會商看如何來處理這個問題"},{"start":7195.155,"end":7197.643,"text":"謝謝次長,謝謝副署長,副署長跟主秘謝謝,謝謝主席"},{"start":7208.459,"end":7215.464,"text":"好接下來請林楚英委員不在請傅坤祺委員不在請林思明委員不在請楊瓊英委員不在請蘇清泉委員不在請黃珊珊委員發言"},{"start":7237.177,"end":7239.339,"text":"經濟部副署長金管會銀行局主秘"},{"start":7253.161,"end":7278.32,"text":"三位好我想除了這個所謂的民法的修正本席更關心的其實是怎麼執行的問題這個相關的利息不管是違約金代辦費或者是什麼那現在當然委員們的修法是希望把它納到205條那206條重點不是你們現在的報告我看起來好像對於這些性質跟屬性跟定義都是有疑問的是嗎"},{"start":7279.079,"end":7307.258,"text":"我跟委員報告因為法條文字定下去之後它含色的會包含到合法的非法所以沒有辦法明確化對所以重點不是在於給他什麼名義而是他們你用了這個名義他明天會有新的名義啊是重點在於我們怎麼監管今天經濟部也在金管會也在其實融資租賃業現在已經成為我們講的影子銀行他大到不是不能倒他大到不能管"},{"start":7308.338,"end":7333.72,"text":"現在的問題就在於說這麼多的融資亂象現在叫做無法可管或無人在管我想問一下現在融資助令到底誰在管金管會是你在管嗎不是來經濟部是不是你在管銀行局以前融資助令在銀行局做在銀行局主管以自律規範在做以自律規範在管所以基本上叫做銀行局自律規範管誰"},{"start":7335.888,"end":7337.489,"text":"關於利率利息跟手續費有規定的叫做銀行嗎?"},{"start":7365.066,"end":7387.736,"text":"或相關保險公司在借錢也有定利率的規範。我想請問經濟部,你們有沒有定過相關融資公司他們的利率規範?有沒有?沒有。為什麼沒有定?沒有母法嗎?基本上民法本身就有利率上限的規定。銀行局可以定,銀行業可以管,你為什麼不能管?因為沒有要管嗎?"},{"start":7391.519,"end":7414.226,"text":"今天的問題在於沒有人要管我今天就算把民法幫你們修了多年但是一樣融資公定公司沒有人要管才是今天的真點因為公司法本身沒有是因為你只管公司法公司法有70萬家公司怎麼會輪得到經濟部來管融資租賃業重點在於另外一個問題融資租賃業他是有洗房業務剛剛趙委員問得很清楚洗房業務是誰管"},{"start":7420.915,"end":7429.745,"text":"金管會又管他的洗房業務,但又不管他能夠去處理的利息跟相關的規範。我們這個國家齁,就是只管一半啦。"},{"start":7430.652,"end":7459.13,"text":"做半套半套還管不好另外一個問題是我們融資出定業者超過50萬新台幣以上的現金交易要不要向調查局申報法務部是要不要要有沒有申報過經濟部你有沒有接到任何資訊或者調查局有向法務部報告我查了一下調查局這邊112年申報大額通貨交易的件數銀行幾百萬件保險業幾千件甚至連銀樓都很多件"},{"start":7459.81,"end":7479.722,"text":"融資註定公司零件有沒有融資註定公司向調查局申報大額交易的業務有沒有目前應該還沒有申報是零來經濟部不是你管的嗎你管過嗎沒有他們沒有沒有一個融資註定公司向你的主管機關叫經濟部"},{"start":7482.284,"end":7482.924,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":7506.277,"end":7533.596,"text":"民間團體卡在自救受害人自救會還有臺北律師公會都已經提出了融資租賃專法的版本我也會提我想在立法院很多的委員都在爭取這件事情重點是政府不能只管半套啊剛剛講過了沒人管不想管有辦法也不定有規定也不遵守這是我們的政府在縱容這些影子銀行不斷的做大"},{"start":7534.964,"end":7552.999,"text":"現在的金管會只做一件事情就是啊那三家上司我找他來喝咖啡啊然後喝完咖啡呢一樣申報過嗎洗錢業務報告過嗎沒有不理你所以今天的問題在於法務部如果真的要解決這個問題洗房也是你"},{"start":7554.788,"end":7578.457,"text":"現在民法也是你但是融資公司你管不到融資公司亂象普遍存在在臺灣社會從20多年前的卡債那時候還是銀行作亂現在銀行不敢了銀行管得很嚴今晚會管得很好但是融資註定公司用另外一種形式在做一樣的事情而這個事情滿有人管"},{"start":7580.02,"end":7595.32,"text":"三位我想今天大家可能都是業務單位啦我重點還是中央政府的政策方向所以另外最後一個融資公司打廣告誰管廣告不實誰管有沒有人管經濟部管不管得了"},{"start":7596.772,"end":7597.032,"text":"李慧琼"},{"start":7615.374,"end":7616.715,"text":"司法及法制委員"},{"start":7641.486,"end":7644.168,"text":"謝謝黃委員、謝謝次長、副署長還有祖密。我們現在休息五分鐘讓大家去休息一下"},{"start":7670.833,"end":7675.141,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8215.064,"end":8218.787,"text":"現在繼續開會 現在有請郭國文委員發言謝謝主席 有請我們法務部次長 請黃次長謝謝"},{"start":8235.356,"end":8252.676,"text":"市長,我們現在是一個低利的社會,資金氾濫,低到什麼程度?之所以會提出這一個修正草案的主要原因,就是說我們看到中租抵合三大融資公司。這三大融資公司,我們根據它2023年的財務報表當中,"},{"start":8256.34,"end":8284.476,"text":"很清楚的他資金的成本非常的低總共三大融資公司跟銀行的往來大概將近有3000億之多擔保銀行的借款最低只有1.63%然後無擔保的銀行這個借貸是1.15%這是公佈在財報裡頭的所以他資金成本這麼低的情況底下對照這個個案這個案的部分以這個手機貸的部分我們換算起來"},{"start":8285.396,"end":8296.025,"text":"大概26%所以這個是超級暴力啊所以說這個不是一個單純的一個獲利行為而已這簡直是"},{"start":8298.524,"end":8298.684,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":8320.526,"end":8343.18,"text":"所以也因爲如此有一些委員提出要有一個融資公司的專法但是要立一個專法曠日廢死因此我們用單條條文的一個修正案然後當我們提出這個修正案的時候我們看到鍾朱迪和他對外講說他澄清說沒有沒有沒有他們的車貸就3到12%之間"},{"start":8346.382,"end":8373.181,"text":"那也沒有所謂的這一個違約金阿巧立名目阿那就代表對他們沒有影響阿最大的融資公司沒有影響那你這個法通過怎麼會有什麼問題呢我聽說據聞阿法務部有意見阿法務部的意見一個意見是屬於定義上說阿這些規費啦行政規費管理費啦違約金阿不屬利息的定義嘛是不是"},{"start":8374.11,"end":8375.29,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8394.949,"end":8415.502,"text":"那我要試問一下次長啊那16%有沒有就乾脆把它調回來12%就好啦再往下調嘛就可以啦這才可以解決他的問題嘛你如果容許他外加不讓他內涵的話那你如果讓他外加在外面那不如就是把這個標準就降回12為什麼提出12的說法你知道嗎"},{"start":8416.658,"end":8431.678,"text":"二千年的時候那時候的修正利率的時候從原來的20%降到16%最初的草案是要降到12%也是貴部有所保留誰互相折衝就變成16%的"},{"start":8434.121,"end":8434.642,"text":"民法第二百零五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":8450.422,"end":8478.601,"text":"不是只有我們現在看到我們認為巧立明目的部分還會有很多的商業行為除了他另外有特別法規定不然的話呢都會適用到我們這一條所以當初關於利率的討論我們是有這個發函的因為我們算是民法主管機關但是對於各行各業的衝擊我們並沒有辦法單獨做決定所以我們有發函給所有相關的單位然後呢中整大家意見之後才定在這個16%"},{"start":8481.163,"end":8502.811,"text":"這次的修法因為它有一個蠻強的法律效果就是說只要是所謂的費用或是我們有立的這些名詞甚至還有所謂的相關費用這個比較概括的概念都要來計算納入歷期上限這樣的規定所以它其實影響成蠻大的這個裡面的費用的範圍"},{"start":8503.951,"end":8518.946,"text":"有我們現在想要制約的這些巧立明末部分但是也會有合法的交易的過程中所產生的比如說公正的費用或者是這個匯費或等等的這些部分要不要來把它納入或是我們可以用什麼方式去排除"},{"start":8519.466,"end":8519.486,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":8544.633,"end":8551.615,"text":"法律有一個通用的原則我大概可以理解你剛剛的說明但是你剛剛提到的部分說巧立名目的各項項目當中你認為有些東西可以納入有些東西沒有納入是不是"},{"start":8569.701,"end":8589.334,"text":"主要是違約金這一項應該這樣講我們討論的時候其實也有提到就是說違約金假設它是巧立明目的違約金事實上它根本就不是屬於法律上違約金的性質的我們也可以透過法院的認定用206條來把它排除但是"},{"start":8590.609,"end":8607.047,"text":"假設他是我們民法所規定的違約金他是在債務不履行之後才會產生而且他有損壞賠償預定額或懲罰性違約金兩種更重要的是法院對於這種違約金我們民法有第二百五十二條規定說他可以予以作檢"},{"start":8608.248,"end":8637.104,"text":"那我們如果直接把它定在205條這個第二項裡面那有可能跟252條的適用的關係這個是不是會限縮到法院對於這個違約金佐檢的這個權利的行使事實上還需要再討論所以我們是建議說違約金可以不一定要把它放在這個歷史這個名詞裡面但是把它排除之外那哪些可以我們有些像我們剛剛講的這些實質跟形式的這個認定"},{"start":8638.264,"end":8654.49,"text":"我們會在立法旅遊裡面來作為說明我們是建議這樣所以說你是要積極促成你不是反對那你正在釐清哪些可以內涵哪些應該是外加排除的那麻煩你把這個內涵跟外加的項目讓我知道一下"},{"start":8654.93,"end":8683.127,"text":"我來核對一下實際的狀況那到底這個條款如果通過之後是不是有無約束的可能這是第一啦第二部分你就慎思一下啦因為當年的版本2000年的版本老實講以現在的低利益社會來看的話就是12%啦當初也是你們去問過利害關係人的結果才喬他變成是16%嘛這有沒有條件和空間也請你回去好好思考一下好不好那我們再來研議謝謝市長"},{"start":8685.127,"end":8691.152,"text":"好 謝謝國委員 謝謝次長接下來請陳培鈺委員陳培鈺陳培鈺委員不在請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席 有請次長有請黃次長委員好"},{"start":8712.766,"end":8733.141,"text":"市長好,詐騙洗錢猖獗嚴肅的掃蕩我覺得這是政府應該有的立場只是說在整個實際的實踐上面的表現我必須要老實講讓非常多的國人非常非常的失望特別是針對詐騙洗錢的首腦跟大戶"},{"start":8736.683,"end":8756.881,"text":"當然在整個掃蕩的過程當中我們尊重檢察官他在個案犯罪的偵辦指揮但是有一些是比較大的可能會牽涉到整個法務部政策面向的今天要來請教一下市長第一個我們為了防止"},{"start":8758.222,"end":8775.609,"text":"有重大犯罪嫌疑的人他可能會跑掉所以我們在入出國及移民法第64條規定第一項的第五款說他要出去的時候有事實主任當事人有下列情況之一可以暫時留置進行調查"},{"start":8776.309,"end":8789.69,"text":"其中第五款的規定應按經司法或軍法機關通治留置我下一個問題通治留置的時候需不需要放G票在海關"},{"start":8791.527,"end":8791.747,"text":"來 我們來看一下齁"},{"start":8813.553,"end":8834.791,"text":"新北地檢署通知移民署禁止出國及暫時留置的公文上面註明入出國暫時留置的時候需要減負G票第一年的銀本以G體等強制處分作為移民法六十四條第一項第五款暫時留置的法律依據新北地檢署這樣的法律見解同不同意"},{"start":8836.111,"end":8856.584,"text":"應該不是這樣子那是怎麼樣請說明應該是委員在螢幕上所顯示的本部的意見是說如果是依照剛才的條文來進行暫時留置的時候是不需要拘票的這會牽涉到一個非常直接的問題因為當初新北地檢署他們要求要放一個拘票在海關"},{"start":8857.785,"end":8885.024,"text":"有沒有放G票的影本在海關有放G票的影本在海關但是放了G票的影本在海關以後發生了什麼事情發生了人到海關的時候還是把他放了還是把他放了讓當初所簽發的那張G票毫無意義你簽發G票就是不讓他出去嘛人準備要走的時候去執行G票嘛"},{"start":8886.363,"end":8913.701,"text":"但結果現實上洗錢大戶到海關的時候人還是放走了這兩個層次的問題一個層次的問題是G票它的時效可以有多長也就是我簽一張G票出去簽一張G票出去我不用健行不經合法傳話無證當留不到場我就直接可以用強制處分把人帶走簽一張G票它的效期有多長"},{"start":8916.168,"end":8937.601,"text":"應該沒有明文的規定沒有明文的規定那法務部在政策上面認為一張G票的效期不應該超過多久這樣才會符合有關於憲法人身自由保障的意旨還是法務部的立場也認為說不需要有時效G票可以一年可以一個月可以五年"},{"start":8939.36,"end":8939.5,"text":"司法委員"},{"start":8956.255,"end":8963.5,"text":"所以我想我們未來在法律上要不要明文規定相關的條件要件準則我們回去再來研議"},{"start":8986.415,"end":9012.552,"text":"那個對於整個G票強制處分的效力對人身自由的侵害是非常大的那也正是因為這個樣子所以之前我剛剛在講的把洗錢大戶放走明明就放G票到海關了結果人還是讓他跑了人還是讓他跑了這件事情在責任上面的追究我之前不斷的請教新北地檢署"},{"start":9013.926,"end":9036.406,"text":"說你們有沒有重犯為師的行政調查什麼時候要結束然後我到3月的時候新北地檢署公開講他沒有辦法提供行政調查的結果這件事情從發生到現在已經一年多了已經一年多了我上一次去質詢部長的時候部長說會督導會了解目前督導了解的情況如何"},{"start":9038.034,"end":9055.94,"text":"這個我們有請高檢署重新再做調查目前還在調查是重新做調查還是把要新北把行政調查報告交出來這兩回事來我回去給你看新北地檢署整整拖了一年多用各式各樣的理由說他們還在做行政調查"},{"start":9057.216,"end":9071.873,"text":"我是覺得非常匪夷所思啦非常的匪夷所思啊連效率很慢的監察院都調查出來了結果我們的新北地檢署的效率啊比監察院還要差比監察院還要差的結果我上次"},{"start":9073.09,"end":9097.099,"text":"問了部長部長說他要去了解所以你們今天的答案是什麼今天的答案是新北地檢根本沒有做行政調查所以要高檢署重新調查嗎他們也是交給新北地檢在調查當中所以還需要多久我們會盡快來促請盡快是多久這太扯了吧今天如果事情只發生一個月我要他交行政調查報告出來對他們不公平嘛"},{"start":9098.12,"end":9107.253,"text":"已經搞了一年多欸搞了一年多欸這樣的效率市長你滿意嗎我們還是會再初請他們趕快把這個新增價提清"},{"start":9108.263,"end":9136.449,"text":"還需要多久還是我們隔了半年以後還要問相同的問題我們會盡快來處清他們好下一個法務部網路流量記錄這牽涉到了有關於詐欺犯罪我們要有效的去偵查不管是詐欺犯罪重大的犯罪我們需要去查IP的位置等等的網路流量記錄在立法的政策上面我們是支持的但我看到法務部回的函說"},{"start":9138.53,"end":9153.798,"text":"建制的費用超過上百億我看了非常的正經啊所以我上次請教部長說你們那個一百億的基準跟三大業者開會的資料怎麼收費的他說一個禮拜之內要提供我到今天還沒有收到"},{"start":9155.14,"end":9170.49,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個部分在行政院內跨部會討論的時候是由警政署來負責評估調查局是負責協助而已我們有含請警政署提供相關的明細但他們一直都還沒有提供"},{"start":9171.791,"end":9194.472,"text":"所以在怠惰是內政部嘛但請市長回去轉告部長做承諾的人是他請他趕快協調把東西交出來要不然我們是希望7月16號以前要完成立法但如果這些基礎資料沒有掌握的話我們就匆匆完成立法的話恐怕不負責任嘛"},{"start":9195.077,"end":9195.858,"text":"因為某個程度上我們一點頭過了上百億喔"},{"start":9204.668,"end":9210.834,"text":"我希望法務部在政策上面要責成我們的高檢署甚至有必要的話跟我們的檢察總長"},{"start":9228.411,"end":9248.732,"text":"相互的協調要徹底的掃蕩這種犯罪徹底掃蕩什麼犯罪我們第一線的軍人調查員他們需要用的防彈背心來我把它列舉一下這個是光過去這幾年曾經發生過的弊案"},{"start":9251.109,"end":9263.921,"text":"抗彈的纖維部因為利潤非常的高啊利潤非常的高裡面有一堆不肖的業者已經形成了一個集團了從2017年2018年2019年2020年2021年甚至到現在2024年的今天"},{"start":9271.445,"end":9294.802,"text":"2024年的今天這個犯罪集團針對攸關我們軍人安全第一線執法人員安全防彈背心抗彈纖維部弊端一堆啊弊端一堆現在我這個喔是只有把它列出來已經成為公開資訊了年年設斃啊我們進一步的去看"},{"start":9296.711,"end":9309.256,"text":"從之前現在有被判刑確定的一位公衛公司的負責人叫做楊春海當然還有其他的共犯牽涉其中用其他的人頭公司微標的微標偽造"},{"start":9312.063,"end":9332.991,"text":"產地證明的偽造產地證明各式各樣的弊案各式各樣的弊案到現在都還是現在進行式都還是現在進行式針對這一種持續性的有組織的有計畫性的犯罪有計畫性的犯罪因為牽涉到了我們第一線"},{"start":9334.051,"end":9363.111,"text":"第一線有很多官兵弟兄他們的安全因此這件事情我希望法務部跟高檢署協調有必要甚至跟最高檢察署協調針對針對這樣一個有計劃有組織在嚴重影響我們國軍安全的弊案必須要徹查不要因為牽涉到的廠商後台很硬"},{"start":9364.312,"end":9365.072,"text":"希望是這樣啦 我相信啦"},{"start":9385.27,"end":9409.873,"text":"我相信我也希望是這個樣子但今天我是一個善意的提醒跟次長講完了以後法務部啊可以回去清查我剛剛所講的那些案子有一些是公共工程委員會抓到弊端的停權的不給錢的結果我們相關的不管是微標的還是偽造變造文件的"},{"start":9411.192,"end":9433.231,"text":"關於案件現在拖延了非常久我做了完整的表給法務部做參考今天是剛開始因為我一定給你們時間做準備那下一次部長來的時候我會深入的針對在整個犯罪集團的掃蕩上面是不是有認真的徹查跟偵辦來請教部長謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":9437.174,"end":9455.449,"text":"謝謝黃委員 謝謝黃次長接下來擁請翁曉琳委員 翁曉琳 翁曉琳委員不在請吳思瑤委員發言謝謝主席 有請次長好 請黃次長委員好"},{"start":9460.645,"end":9484.587,"text":"市長我們過去是立法院同事過去就對於您的法學專業非常的敬仰那很期待跟您的對話民進黨團是優先提出國會擴權法案的第一個釋憲案的憲法機關那我們也昨天收到了7月10號憲法法庭就即將來召開那庭期已定"},{"start":9485.253,"end":9510.873,"text":"那也非常感謝憲法法庭快速的在我們送出案件的第三天6月28就已經受理所以從受理然後到停期憲法法庭開會的停期已定我們都可以認定整個大法官也非常審慎快速的來對於國會擴權法案要來做出法規範的這個憲法法庭的審議那非常遺憾今天上午在樓下的交通委員會"},{"start":9512.079,"end":9536.57,"text":"那有四個大違法他們硬要來大幹一場在空窗期就是成立了靜電室的這個調查小組而這個調查小組已經鬧了三包第一個是原本交通委員會3月11就成立一個調閱小組第二個就是今天陳雪生沒有經過司法法制委員會的同意自己把我們"},{"start":9538.4,"end":9555.75,"text":"這個叫聯席進去了然後呢我說他有四個違反第一個他違反立法院各委員會組織法13條你如果要進行聯席委員會你要經過院會的交付或者是由召委來提請院會來決定他都沒有陳雪生召委在主持的時候他有說對我沒有可是他是要硬幹"},{"start":9558.476,"end":9585.257,"text":"第二（他也違反現在雖然是二法擴權的法案但是現行通過的立法院職權刑事法46之二條也很清楚的說偵查中的案件不宜來進行調查嘛所以違反自己剛通過的法律當然第三個大違反就是我認為他完全不尊重鍾佳濱、昭偉不尊重我們司法法制委員會昭偉他好像沒有問過您嘛對不對都沒有嗎"},{"start":9586.138,"end":9592.276,"text":"所以我是司法法制委員會的委員我還覺得怪為什麼把我們聯席進去沒有通知我們沒有告知我們"},{"start":9593.598,"end":9617.834,"text":"原來是為了讓我們黃國昌總召長期關心禁電室長期鎖定禁電室以查閉之名來進行政治肅殺的手段所以硬要把司法法制聯席進去您過去也在立法院如果跟媒體相關要聯席會繳到司法法制不是不行那有點怪"},{"start":9618.875,"end":9640.502,"text":"公平會經濟委員會是不是要聯席?教育文化委員會文化部跟這個NCC的相關長理內容的部分也有相關那為什麼不是聯席教育文化委員會跟經濟委員會獨選司法法制委員會就是天選之人天選之案就是先設建在畫吧讓我們的黃國昌總召可以進入這個調查委員會來"},{"start":9642.823,"end":9664.412,"text":"進行他所要的查閉或調查所以對於這樣的一個處理我是認為在大法官的釋憲或是暫時處分還沒有做出裁定之前立法院都應當是自治的我想次長同意我的觀點嗎我們尊重這個立法院的執權的行使那也尊重委員的意見"},{"start":9665.026,"end":9670.048,"text":"請問您對於大法官的回避的看法是什麼?我想應該依照憲法訴訟法相關的規定來進行那這個是由這個司法院主席管理如果說"},{"start":9692.52,"end":9710.134,"text":"以國民黨的邏輯只要是民進黨執政時期所提名的大法官就是綠油油的話那完全無視於大法官的法學專業他們獨立運作是超出政黨之外陳水扁的任期大法官所釋憲做出135個案子"},{"start":9712.686,"end":9738.526,"text":"馬英九的時期有95個釋憲案蔡英文總統8年任內做出76個釋憲案如果依國民黨的邏輯這些都是因迴避而未迴避所以就完全不通下一頁那您剛說的大法官的迴避條款您要不要針對憲法訴訟法第9條第10條也就是憲法訴訟法第二節整個對於大法官的迴避來分享一下您的觀點好嗎"},{"start":9739.927,"end":9758.366,"text":"我想這個迴避的條款是基本上基於可能的利益衝突或是職務的衝突所以說第九條是關於自行迴避的第十條是關於這個申請迴避的那申請迴避的話也需要有申請人來向憲法法庭來做申請"},{"start":9759.267,"end":9786.815,"text":"那我想這些規定都跟我們一般在司法案件裡面的迴避的規定的精神是類同的一致的所以已經有清楚的規範對於大法官的對於人對於事對於案件的迴避如果現在這野黨要無限上綱把還未進入憲法法庭審議的釋憲案就把它推為導向他可能做出某些可能的一個裁決我認為這是對於憲法不敬"},{"start":9788.856,"end":9808.001,"text":"對於大法官不敬那下一頁也是要就交於您喔我們黃國昌委員一直說擴權的釋憲案在憲法法庭一定要有言辭辯論是這樣嗎下一頁我想您對於憲法法庭對於司法院的運作當然你現在是法務部的次長那今天是跟您做一下討論"},{"start":9809.221,"end":9828.985,"text":"我認為任何委員再大都不要凌駕大法官以憲法訴訟法25條很清楚的規定在第五章第六章明定的案件判決應當要有言辭辯論除了第五章第六章的案件以外判決得不經言辭辯論換言之黃國昌委員說"},{"start":9834.087,"end":9850.283,"text":"國會擴權法案的審議一定要有言辭辯論我們沒有預設立場我們尊重大法官的決定但是就法條論法條您comments一下吧我想這個法條委員已經解釋得非常清楚了"},{"start":9854.709,"end":9862.078,"text":"憲法法庭在憲法輸送法施行之後也是朝向盡可能廣納各方意見以舉行延遲辯論的方式為原則"},{"start":9868.846,"end":9894.235,"text":"當然憲法出文法有明定因行延遲辯論的案件跟得不經延遲辯論來審理的案件因為憲法法庭所處理的大概都是法律問題一回多所以像我們最高法院其實也是得行延遲辯論但是也不見得每個案子都一定要通過延遲辯論的方式來做這個是一個法理"},{"start":9895.515,"end":9921.84,"text":"我們看到司法法院現在也已經訂了這個庭期我想這個應該沒有相關的爭議我相信大法官這個憲法法庭會依照憲法跟相關法律的規定奪利來行使之處我在這裡就交於您就是我認為不管是法務部主管的這個檢查系統或是司法院主管的法院系統或者是大法官憲法法庭都應當避免用政治立場去干預"},{"start":9922.9,"end":9942.106,"text":"避免去對大法官或是各級的法官檢察官們下指導其。這是從政者應當要自制、要非常清楚的一個奉祭。憲法機關本於互相平等尊重、平等相為的原則。下一頁。但同樣的也要就教於您喔。您是法學專業。"},{"start":9944.725,"end":9965.591,"text":"這週立法院最受關注的是選罷法的修法國民黨智庫昨天說實體從舊程序從新所以提高了罷免的門檻修法如果通過的話本屆就可以開始試用甚至現在已經進行中的謝國良的案子就可以試用請問法務部您這邊的法律見解如何"},{"start":9966.851,"end":9967.011,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9990.896,"end":9991.036,"text":"主席"},{"start":10015.948,"end":10016.128,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":10033.764,"end":10034.164,"text":"主席"},{"start":10063.944,"end":10067.967,"text":"提案的委員都是要保障消費者從修法來下手下頁"},{"start":10082.216,"end":10111.255,"text":"那當然要杜絕融資公司巧立明目規避民法利率上限幾位委員不管是開記者會下一頁或是提出具體的修法那在2020年我們已經修法條降了從20%降到16%就是為了保障經濟弱勢者但是對於融資公司透過另外的方式各類的規費手續費來超過這個法定利率的漏洞這件事情確實需要去解決下一頁"},{"start":10112.236,"end":10123.78,"text":"所以委員提案了那不好意思我剛剛因為沒有在會議上我有另外的這個質詢那法務部對於如果你們的法務部的意見是認為還要再周延討論但如果不修這個法有什麼樣有效的手段可以來歸"},{"start":10131.448,"end":10133.87,"text":"被免杜絕如果不修法。"},{"start":10147.58,"end":10173.407,"text":"另外配套措施還是應該要加強對於這些金融說準金融的行為來做這個監理強化他的監理因為剛剛稍早我們的召委有提示的很多具體的案例這個其實都未必直接跟利息有關因為他會巧立各種名目甚至用不同的契約形態甚至是這個複合的契約的形態同時跟很多的行為人都發生關係"},{"start":10174.207,"end":10174.947,"text":"司法及法制委員"},{"start":10202.194,"end":10228.619,"text":"因為金管會對於融資業現在是適用公司法所以是經濟部在主管管轄所以確實在整個對於融資業的監理強度是不是足夠這本身是本期比較關切的核心下一頁我們來看看國際我去彙整出這個也是這個行政院消保處提供的資料還有外交部我去綜整出來的"},{"start":10230.76,"end":10255.836,"text":"國際多數的金融相關主管機關來管轄融資公司這一種的是多數日本的金融廳韓國金融管理委員會到新加坡加拿大法國盧森堡合國德國英國澳洲都是由金融監理機關來強化對於融資公司的監理事項那當然另外一類像美國義大利南非歐盟他是用央行或是其他機關來作為主理下一頁"},{"start":10256.616,"end":10280.19,"text":"所以我個人是認為如果要更去全面的去解決融資公司很多他巧立名目其他的作為的話當然修法是一個可以思考的但是對於融資公司管理是用專法或是在現行的法規裡頭用一個專章更明確的從源頭來管制這是我的觀點啦就教於次長"},{"start":10281.11,"end":10281.49,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":10302.896,"end":10325.731,"text":"這個不是修民法的問題不是我是說剛剛那個如果這個節目的話因為我們也在內部跟相關的專家學者來進行討論過了那麼我也把我們目前的這個方向跟委員所提的方向一致類似的方向來函詢各該主管機關就各行各業的意見那等他們回來之後我們會重整看是不是能夠提出一個完整的這個規定"},{"start":10326.331,"end":10339.885,"text":"那我理解,我們後續希望有更長期的時間來彙具更高的共識。謝謝次長,謝謝交委,謝謝。好,謝謝委員,謝謝黃次長。好,目前所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢,詢答結束。"},{"start":10348.312,"end":10369.744,"text":"委員質詢時,要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關競速送交個別委員及本會。委員林思明、翁曉琳所提書面質詢,均列入紀錄刊登公報,並請相關機關以書面答覆。本次會議進行到此,議程討論事項,另定其審查。現在散會,謝謝大家。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}