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中華民國113年7月3日上午9時至下午1時地點本院群閑樓101會議室出席委員洪孟凱委員等15人列席委員陳廷飛委員等17人列席人員文化部部長黎元率同有關人員"},{"start":1891.118,"end":1912.118,"text":"主席林昭及委員擬具報告事項一、宣讀上次會議事錄決定因素確定二、文化部部長黎院列席就文化資產保存法施行40年有餘修復體系翻新升級進行專題報告並備質詢本次議程由委員洪孟凱等19人提出質詢均經文化部部長黎院及相關人員及其答覆說明"},{"start":1912.538,"end":1932.691,"text":"立由委員林柏毅提出書面質詢,決定一,報告及詢討完畢。二,委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報。三,對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分,請相關機關技術以書面答覆,通過臨時提案一項,宣讀完畢。好,請問各位委員,上一次的會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏之處?"},{"start":1934.212,"end":1941.596,"text":"好 若沒有的話 那我們就是意識度確定那今天的議程是繼續審查學生輔導法相關修正的草案共27案繼續審查委員范雲等12人還有委員林宜瑾等22人委員張雅琳等19人還有繼續審查委員李柏毅等18人繼續審查委員黃修芳等18人"},{"start":1959.83,"end":1965.794,"text":"繼續審查委員許智杰等25人擬具繼續審查委員許智杰等26人擬具繼續審查委員柯真等18人擬具繼續審查委員陳培宇等18人擬具繼續審查委員陳培宇等18人擬具繼續審查委員何孟楷等22人擬具繼續審查委員陳秀寶等20人擬具"},{"start":1980.663,"end":1984.226,"text":"繼續審查委員郭鈺晴等19人擬具繼續審查委員葛如軍等16人擬具繼續審查委員郭國文等19人擬具繼續審查委員郭國文等19人擬具繼續審查民眾擬具繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具繼續審查"},{"start":2000.6,"end":2006.164,"text":"委員吳佩儀等16人擬具繼續審查委員王玉明等20人擬具繼續審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具繼續審查委員羅志強等16人擬具繼續審查委員陳廷飛等19人擬具繼續審查委員馬文君等24人擬具繼續審查委員陳清輝等20人擬具繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具繼續審查委員林月琴等19人擬具繼續審查委員萬美玲等17人"},{"start":2029.52,"end":2045.25,"text":"好 那我們現在就要進行逐條審查本日議程徵列委員林俊憲等18人擬具《學生輔導法》第11條及11條之一修正草案令本案已於113年6月26日詢答完畢新增委員萬美玲等兩個提案版本"},{"start":2051.354,"end":2073.604,"text":"不再進行尋答並入本次共同審查我們首先介紹在場的委員范雲委員葛如君委員吳村城委員還有我們現在在場的教育部的官員我們有教育部長鄭邀正部長還有我們的"},{"start":2078.595,"end":2085.081,"text":"張廖萬堅次長吳林暉司長彭富原署長法制署李松茂署長人事署武崇斌署長施培吳小霞司長"},{"start":2105.748,"end":2124.329,"text":"那當然我們今天也請到了這個行政院的人事行政總署的副人事長懷旭謝謝還有我們衛福部的心理健康室的專門委員宏佳基委員謝謝那其他的官員我就不一一在場的介紹了好"},{"start":2125.814,"end":2152.019,"text":"那接下來呢委員如果有臨時提案的話那就請在上午10點30分前提出處理提案的時候若立委員及提案委員連署人都不在場的話我們原力不予處理我們現在就來審查學生輔導法相關修正的草案進行主條審查請議事人員宣讀條文的內容並進行討論跟協商討論的時候如果有新增的修正動議請議事人員一併來做一些的宣讀謝謝"},{"start":2158.118,"end":2175.377,"text":"委員范雲等17人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》等27案條文對照表。 委員陳培宇等18人提案。 第1條第二項修正為學生輔導一本法之規定,但特殊教育法有特別規定者適用其規定。"},{"start":2176.007,"end":2199.36,"text":"《少年矯正學校之輔導教師及專業輔導人員編制適用少年矯正學校設置及教育實施通責及相關法令》。 委員陳秀寶等20人提案爭列第3項、第4項為全身輔導因已維護兒童及少年出家利益的原則,其決定涉及不同主體及權力衝突使用右肩考量兒童及"},{"start":2200.38,"end":2228.297,"text":"少年權利之保障並採取符合兒童及少年最佳利益之解釋。輔導學生這過程應特別關注兒童及少年表達意見、身心、健康、受教育及其他相關權利,並以關注兒童及少年之身分認同家庭為系、受照顧、保護及與安全及其他相關需求。委員陳佩玉"},{"start":2231.226,"end":2243.723,"text":"第二項修正法軍事學校、醫衛學校及主管機關及國防部警察各級學校及主管機關及內政部上年矯正學校及主管機關及法務部其餘等現行的法文"},{"start":2244.984,"end":2266.79,"text":"委員陳佩玉等18人提案第一項第一款刪除但不包括矯正學校機遇條現場條文委員范雲等14人提案第四條修正第二項第一款至第九款為一統籌規劃配置及運用專業輔導人員好 謝謝各位這麥克風有點時間太小我覺得"},{"start":2271.387,"end":2271.988,"text":"陳培宇等18人擬具陳秀寶等20人擬具"},{"start":2293.848,"end":2317.447,"text":"大家好我想今天是學生輔導法要修這個條文是非常重要的一個時刻因為從上一屆我跟賴品委員就是最早開公聽會覺得學生輔導法有蠻多地方需要修的那我知道教育部也一直都在準備那也有跟非常多的委員對話那只是非常的遺憾就是說因為今天並沒有教育部的版本在這裡"},{"start":2318.208,"end":2343.25,"text":"那我還是希望在我們整個這個過程中能夠有就是院版或是說教育部的版本因為在理念上我是看到我們各不同黨派的委員其實方向都是非常的一致希望增加更多的學府資源能夠做好就是現在的學生的身心健康那這個也是跟校園安全高度相關那我也一直知道教育部都有一直在努力"},{"start":2343.91,"end":2370.735,"text":"雖然法還沒有修但是有一些資源增加的部分都有在做所以待會是不是也可以請教育部能夠說明一下你們有哪些已經在進行中的努力那另外針對這一條因為少年矯正學校相關的法律我覺得精神上我們非常的支持一起納入那但是這兩個制度不大一樣那是不是也能夠請教育部或者是法務部能夠說明一下"},{"start":2371.015,"end":2371.996,"text":"教育部有哪些部分已經啟動了?"},{"start":2386.572,"end":2412.608,"text":"那教育部的版本什麼時候有機會到我們院裡面來因為我覺得我們其實理念都一樣那現在就是說能夠增加多少資源在這裡那我們每一個不同黨派的委員的方向也都是一樣那這部分如果有困難的話哪些地方是我們必須要彼此一起來妥協那拉近大家各界從我們輔導諮商各界就是跟老師學生家長"},{"start":2413.408,"end":2414.49,"text":"委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":2428.297,"end":2444.724,"text":"謝謝我們一向非常尊重行政院以及相關的部會那我們也希望相關的部會在進行專業工作的時候也尊重立法院近期賴清德總統宣布要成立許多的委員會"},{"start":2446.284,"end":2466.874,"text":"那這樣子的一個做法所幸目前還沒有擴及到我們的教育的這個專業那我想相關的教育部也就應該要本於職權應該要持續更加專業的來進行相關的工作同時也要尊重國會那原本上週四我們應該就要審查學生輔導法"},{"start":2468.355,"end":2489.293,"text":"因為次長有告訴昭委行政院的院版將會送出請我們的柯昭偉再等一下昭偉跟我們的所有的立法委員同仁從善如流來變更議程但是最後行政院卻沒有送出學生輔導法的草案"},{"start":2490.214,"end":2507.027,"text":"我們認為次長以及相關的這個部會的官員有責任如同剛剛的這個范雲委員所說應該要跟我們說明清楚到底怎麼回事難道行政院現在是降格為行政局了嗎總統沒有指示法案就沒有辦法出來嗎"},{"start":2508.668,"end":2529.386,"text":"那我想我們現在國會改革法案有通過那當然現在還有很多社會上的討論但是我想尊重國會我們也非常的尊重行政院信口開河不是我們想要看到的讓我們覺得好像這樣的流程被藐視了我們覺得這也不是我們想看到的《學生輔導法》22條也指出"},{"start":2530.387,"end":2555.905,"text":"自106年起應該由中央主管機關每五年進行檢討教育部已經檢討多久了我們可以算一下這個法案從去年就報到了行政院也遲遲未能出行政院我想這樣的一個責任教育部責無旁貸那113年度已經邁入下半年那又要開始一個新的學年學生輔導法的修正施行我們真的不希望再被延後"},{"start":2556.926,"end":2579.344,"text":"教育就是所謂的銀色子彈Education is the silver bullet對於需要幫助的孩子們來說他們還在苦苦的等待對第一線努力的老師來說他們也只是想要一起幫忙保護孩子照顧孩子希望教育部今天應該要說清楚講明白到底過程當中是怎麼回事請不要把我們的專業這個"},{"start":2582.006,"end":2598.411,"text":"不予尊重把孩子和老師們當棄子以上是我希望能夠在程序前先做的發言 謝謝好 謝謝還有哪些委員等一下等一下我們還有哪些委員在對於第1條的這個條文好 范雲委員"},{"start":2600.672,"end":2628.225,"text":"其實我還是希望我們今天就專門談教育跟學服法的問題因為剛剛葛委員要講到賴總統我要回應一下賴總統總統府的委員會是從有民選的總統以來不同的總統都有這樣一個委員會那它事實上只是一個諮詢的一個就是說一個意義所以我想我們這邊可能是是不是就聚焦在我們教育相關的議題那因為你講了那我也覺得應該要回應一下好 謝謝"},{"start":2629.397,"end":2658.616,"text":"還有沒有兩位委員好 那我們現在是不是就請教育部針對我們第一條的條文裡面來做出一些的說明我還是先請各位因為像目前為止我手上沒有看到行政院出來的版本禮拜四這個時候我沒有看到所以我們今天討論是根據提案討論的一些版本就是教育部所提供的一些的建議的版本來做這樣條文上面的修正好不好那司長是不是 好"},{"start":2659.784,"end":2674.85,"text":"我先簡要說在法令修正之前我們已經做了一些努力包括國小的專任輔導老師原本規劃120學年度才能全部配置到位我們經過檢討提前了4年希望在116年"},{"start":2676.711,"end":2691.581,"text":"提早全部到位,所以在這三年當中還要增加2088位的國小專任輔導老師。另外國中的專任輔導老師預計114年度會全部到位,也要比今年要再增加53位專任輔導老師。"},{"start":2693.542,"end":2717.51,"text":"這是國中國小的部分已經做了這樣的努力那在大專的部分我們也透過經費預算補助的方式提早在113年度就支持大專院校可以提早把大專的專業輔導人員從1200比1提升到900比1那目前已經有50%的學校已經提早達成了有28%的學校已經到1000比1另外22.1%因為"},{"start":2719.471,"end":2721.313,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":2741.371,"end":2745.194,"text":"在合作之間還有不夠緊密以及行政團隊資源還不夠的部分所以針對第4條第6條第7條第12條也都已經有檢討修正的文字同時針對要"},{"start":2761.508,"end":2785.524,"text":"保障學生兒少的最佳利益。我們也增訂了第五條要在主管機關的輔志會增加學生代表跟特教老師代表。那第五之一條也針對維護學生的最佳權益在特殊的情況之下經過學校召開專案會議是可以不用經過法定代理人同意這是考慮到有部分受輔導學生需求是來自於家庭功能的問題。"},{"start":2786.505,"end":2814.576,"text":"所以我們其實已經完成相關的準備那已經報送進行政院在審查中我想行政院也是非常的謹慎因為這段期間有非常多包括委員的提案很多包括學術團體的專業團體的意見也蠻多所以我想行政院是在做整體的考慮之後那也希望能夠在調整人力的部分在經費預算的籌措能夠提早到位所以有稍微一點點的延遲那我想"},{"start":2815.416,"end":2834.816,"text":"目前已經以最快的速度安排院會處理希望將來能夠併同委員會的審查結果來做一個協商先做說明那針對第一條的部分等一下你針對這個說明我還是要回應一下剛剛葛委員的意見是說本來大家期望是可以更早看到行政院的版本"},{"start":2835.856,"end":2859.883,"text":"剛剛司長所提到的是過去潘文忠部長的時候就已經是承諾這本來就是學生輔導應該做的東西今天我們重點是來自於為什麼我們要到七月多的時候才需要審一個過去已經承諾大家應該早點送過來行政院的一個版本我覺得這是重點至於你剛剛說的這個部分我們沒有懷疑但是我們要針對問題來做回答現在是不是請針對第一條的這個層面我們先來做是司長還是部長要講"},{"start":2864.624,"end":2864.944,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":2894.424,"end":2913.187,"text":"希望能夠快速去了解我們所有草野大家所關心的這一個那剛才主席說的非常的明確我們也確實因為後來發現委員所關心的問題其實是大家共同關心我們"},{"start":2914.534,"end":2929.682,"text":"教育部內部在幕僚作業也一直希望把委員所期待的想辦法看能不能透過溝通、協調能夠達到我們共同關心的這個學生輔導法的一個方向來發展。所以呢"},{"start":2930.262,"end":2949.053,"text":"就像主席剛才所關心的第一條我進來的時候確實當時的照年矯正學校的是不是要納進來我們那時候還在尊重這個法務部的許多的一些他們的一些相關的意見跟規範那最近法務部內部他們也覺得"},{"start":2950.074,"end":2970.726,"text":"在學生輔導法裡面所規範的他們事實上是做的比現在的更多也就是說學生輔導法裡面他們除了有輔導老師該有的輔導、輔導室、輔導中心以外他們還有一些加入心理師、社工師更多的法律的這些相關的專業人員在協助這些"},{"start":2972.407,"end":3000.207,"text":"這一個少年角質學校裡邊的許多的這個少年所以呢他們原則上他們也支持說是不是有一些相關的規範不要受這個限制屬於特別法的這樣的一個來處理那原則上他們遵循學生輔導法這樣的一個規範也就把它納進來這一個遵循我們學生輔導法裡邊所有的一些規範大概跟主席說這還有"},{"start":3002.068,"end":3024.358,"text":"我們要請法務部針對這個有關於因為矯正學校是屬於法務部的一個範圍目前台灣有四個矯正學校嘛目前就我的理解他們的確在心理的這樣的一個輔導的一個層面上面是做的比我們現有的規範還要更多會不會有諜床駕屋或者你們尊重就是把它納入我們學輔法裡面是不是我們請法務部矯正是矯正署嗎"},{"start":3027.159,"end":3029.901,"text":"財務部參事汪南俊財務部參事汪南俊財務部參事汪南俊財務部長"},{"start":3041.578,"end":3042.619,"text":"委員報告因為矯正學校其實我們相關的"},{"start":3062.198,"end":3086.229,"text":"編制跟人力其實是優於我們現在看起來學生輔導法的現行規定那因為我們這個同學們比較特別一點所以我們這個輔導人力編制是不同於一般學校輔導工作的範疇跟分工跟一般學校也有差異所以就第一條的修正條文來講我們是建議如果就這個條文原來只有"},{"start":3087.729,"end":3107.649,"text":"特殊教育法另有規定者從其規定的話那我們是建議是不是這個加一個或少年矯正學校相關法律另有規定者從其規定那這個部分是因為我們已經有一些配套的條文已經在處理那有這個或少年矯正學校相關法律來做一個"},{"start":3108.55,"end":3110.511,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":3137.139,"end":3161.806,"text":"就這個4條第5條第8條做說明我們等一下我們先動第一條第一條的部分裡面我清楚矯正學校啦他裡面做的部分等到那個條文的時候你們要把它排除的時候我們再做文字上面來做一個修正總而言之對你們來說的話你把它加入特殊學校法或少年矯正學校相關法令這幾個字眼對你們來說法務部是可以接受的我們先到這個地方即可好不好還有沒有其他意見第一條"},{"start":3165.46,"end":3184.35,"text":"陳秀寶委員的兒少最佳利益條款有這個想法,但不一定要放在這,至少要放在哪個部分,因為我這邊也有相關的意見。在委員提案的第五條之一有相同的文字,"},{"start":3186.476,"end":3209.097,"text":"我們在後面的條文裡面就把這個文字完全放進去了好不好那如果大家沒有任何的意見的話那我們是不是第一條裡面就是根據我們這個教育部所提出來的討論的版本我們看一下好不好各位我唸一次第一條為促進與維護學生身心健康及全人發展並健全學生輔導工作特制定本法"},{"start":3209.798,"end":3219.086,"text":"學生輔導依本法之規定,但特殊教育法或少年矯正學校相關法律另有規定者從其規定。"},{"start":3230.711,"end":3258.688,"text":"第2條只有陳培宇委員的版本陳培宇委員要不要說明一下好 謝謝主席但是因為已經納入了所以我想就感謝教育部的支持我們就一起未來往這個方向努力 謝謝好 那我們這條就是照原來的版本通過來 我們第3條第3條目前為止也是只有陳培有陳培宇委員的版本林宜瑾等19人版本好 有誰要稍微說明一下第3條"},{"start":3267.927,"end":3274.628,"text":"第4條、第5條、第8條除外的部分在討論,所以這個部分後續再討論,謝謝主席,謝謝教育部。後續之後再討論,對不起喔,我剛剛有點miss掉喔,第二條來說的話,剛剛陳培芸委員沒有特別的一個意見喔,所以我們第二條應該是就是"},{"start":3289.151,"end":3291.574,"text":"第二條法務部有意見跟委員報告第二條基本上原則精神我們都同意"},{"start":3305.971,"end":3329.119,"text":"可不可以請委員們考慮參考我們之前性別平等教育法第二項還有教師法的第二條規定的體力我們第二條的規定是不是可以修正就是文字上的修正意思是一樣的就是本法所定事項於軍事學校、預備學校、警察各級學校及少年矯正學校辦理時以其所屬主管機關為本法所稱主管機關"},{"start":3331.46,"end":3345.152,"text":"這個條文是因為我們看那個前面的體力就是大概都是這樣子定我們是不是要一致會不會比較好教育部我們法治局你對文字上面李處長"},{"start":3347.557,"end":3366.181,"text":"精神一樣、宗旨一樣但是我們的寫法上各位可以看到我們書面資料最右邊的這一欄就是現行的條文欄現行條文欄是指軍事學校、警察校院、驅逐管理機關分別是國防部跟內政部也就是我們現在採取的版本"},{"start":3367.441,"end":3375.126,"text":"與陳培宇委員的版本是一致的而且是比較明確的對應學校跟各該主管機關是相對明確所以我們會建議還是採用體會討論的版本以上"},{"start":3385.009,"end":3399.178,"text":"我們是覺得這個寫法我當然理解你們的考慮可是我們希望他更明確的說明清楚所以我們才會這樣逐條列所以也麻煩你們回應一下就是聽起來這個修正其實沒有太大的差別謝謝"},{"start":3400.7,"end":3412.647,"text":"主要是考慮統一過去的體力因為過去的教師法跟性別平等教育法都是這樣的規定所以我們才提出來這樣不過我們是尊重委員們的決議"},{"start":3425.997,"end":3440.712,"text":"最重要利益的學校生育事項第19條限制在未經法定同意的理由。要怎麼改是不是?我們是建議這本法所定事項於軍事學校、預備學校、警察各級學校及少年矯正學校辦理時以其所屬主管機關為本法所稱主管機關。"},{"start":3443.841,"end":3472.415,"text":"我覺得還是因為第二條就是我們所提案的這個相關題會的版本看起來比較直接雖然我知道你們是考慮到過去的一個體力了但是我想一法歸一法吧好不好那我們第二條本條就裁定我們依據我們現有的這個相關提案的內容我們我們就是用這個版本好不好第三條第三條對啊就就培育版本還有林月琴的版本"},{"start":3474.11,"end":3493.604,"text":"范雲委員我也幫那個林月琴委員的版本說一下話那他這個精神目的是蠻好的就是希望能夠把幼兒納入但是我們也知道其實幼兒不屬於學生幼兒園也不屬於學校所以不是在學生輔導法的管轄範圍他應該是在幼教法專門處理"},{"start":3495.926,"end":3523.965,"text":"佑兒及家長輔導機制缺乏雖然不在學生輔導法的修正範圍但我幫忙寫了一個附帶決議希望能夠後續教育部能夠跟地方會商如何提供幼兒及家長的輔導資源能夠把林宜瑾委員版本的用意能夠納入先跟大家說明一下教育部待會跟著說明一下之後再處理附帶決議但是我就先說明一下這個部分"},{"start":3530.793,"end":3539.204,"text":"第3條因為范雲委員只是表達林月琪沒有到委員的一個想法但是不堅持嘛 對不對來 司長"},{"start":3540.111,"end":3563.248,"text":"好,先說有關於林委員的這個提案的部分對,先說明是因為在幼兒教育及照顧法跟他的執法裡頭對於專業輔導人的定義跟學生輔導法的定義有不一致的地方因為我們的只有心理師、社工、臨床心理師、諮商心理師跟社工是三種那幼兒教育"},{"start":3564.13,"end":3565.151,"text":"《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案"},{"start":3589.707,"end":3608.901,"text":"范委員有提到說那個林月琴委員關注那個部分我們將來是不是可以有一個副大學強化將來學習上的規劃我想那個部分我們請國教署來試擬那等一下回頭可以就副大學的文字做確認好 我們還是focus在我們就是學您前的這個部分來 我們第三條裡面陳培鈺委員 OK"},{"start":3612.213,"end":3628.438,"text":"好 你說因為在題會討論版本裡面第三條有加了這個排除條款那我相信等一下你們應該會有需要說明這個排除否則我們很怕會過度濫用這個所謂的排除所以是不是也請你們可以直接說明一下 謝謝對保護部"},{"start":3632.345,"end":3649.426,"text":"委員報告首先我們就這個第三項增加的排除條款我先就這個法制上的一役我們做一個說明那請委員也決議那待會第四條第五條第八條為什麼要排除我們副署長來跟大家說明就他們現在執行的現況"},{"start":3650.447,"end":3669.033,"text":"那首先是文字上有關這個第三條增列如果增列第三項那依照說明的內容呢矯正學校得不適用第五條學生輔導諮詢會的相關規定可是這個條文呢我們是用第五條及第八條第二項關於家長代表之規定這樣的文字"},{"start":3669.693,"end":3697.659,"text":"看起來會有點誤解就是說矯正學校只是不適用第五條第二項關於家長代表的規定但實際上我們應該是第五條整條都不適用那我們看這個因為這個整條是有相關聯的不是只有第五條有關家長代表的那所以我們建議這個條文是不是可以修正成少年矯正學校得不適用第四條第二項至第四項頓號然後第五條頓號"},{"start":3698.959,"end":3725.004,"text":"然後是第8條第2項關於家長代表制規定這樣會不會比較清楚因為我們知道法制作業上雖然到最後的是用級但是因為第5條及第8條關於家長代表的規定這樣定下來會誤解可能會文藝上誤解第5條只有家長代表相關的規定不適用那如果說我想聽剛才的法治局的意見如果說用頓號不適合那是不是我們在這個條文的說明欄就要說明得很清楚好法治局"},{"start":3728.359,"end":3755.499,"text":"的確這樣文字念起來的確會讓人家有少許的一些誤解啦法治局法治處對不起法治處確實我們在法治座位用語的體力三個四項的連結的時候第一個連結詞是用語第二個是用集那如果要用頓號全部頓開也可以如果法務部認為這個四項是有三個部分要排除的話"},{"start":3757,"end":3778.611,"text":"第1個頓號改成與因為排掉的第1個四項是第4條第2項至第4項這是第1個與第5條是第2個然後才是及第8條第2項那這樣的話就是很清楚的3個四項的連結以上來我們那個文字修正上趕快第4項與第5條然後頓號第8條第2項"},{"start":3786.78,"end":3806.381,"text":"現在目前來說第4項與第5條,然後是頓耗嘛,然後第8條嘛,是不是這樣子,我們看我們螢幕上所改的法務部是不是也順便看一下,是不是也沒辦法反映你們的想法?這樣看起來好像剛剛那個李處長的意思好像是叫頓耗是急啦,是不是?那如果是這樣定我們還是建議說明來還是要說明?"},{"start":3813.494,"end":3826.304,"text":"跟主席補充我們在立法說明欄其實對於第8條第二項排除有關於家長代表的規定寫得很清楚說明欄要不要看一下說明欄那第5條也說得很清楚"},{"start":3828.698,"end":3830.56,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":3856.502,"end":3857.103,"text":"原來的版本"},{"start":3868.732,"end":3894.67,"text":"第5條及第8條就維持題會討論的版本嘛好不好來我們就是在我們少年矯正學校的不適用第4條第2項至第4項頓號第5條及第8條第2項關於家長代表之規定然後其他的他們在說明欄當中對於每一個條文裡面都有很明確的一個敘述這樣可以嗎法務部好謝謝"},{"start":3899.229,"end":3919.967,"text":"好 對不起 那前面的紅絲我還是必須要再念一下第三條版法用詞定義如下 可能大家看一下因為這會牽涉到我們未來整個的一個非常重要的一個定義學校 指公私立各級學校 軍事學校 預備學校 警察各級學校及少年矯正學校OK嗎 夠明確了齁 好"},{"start":3925.032,"end":3938.619,"text":"還有我們的第三項裡面呢我再一次的宣讀啊少年矯正學校得不適用第四條第二項至第四項頓號第五條及第八條第二項關於家長代表之規定好沒有問題我們第"},{"start":3943.098,"end":3962.79,"text":"我再補一個發言可是我知道教育部不一定會參採因為我們剛剛有一個委員還沒有辦法來張雅琳委員請我代為發言就是在那個輔導教師是指專業輔導人員含臨床心理師、諮商心理師、社會工作室證書這些有沒有機會含那個職能治療師"},{"start":3967.148,"end":3991.967,"text":"因為確實在我們面對很多學生輔導的現場有比較多的小孩是到進了小學之後才被老師看出來或者是客人老師看出來他們有職能治療的需求那所以確實現在很多小孩的困境就是如果在學校輔導是必須要在額外轉介對對對對對那有沒有機會我們可不可以討論一下因為雅琳委員現在還沒有辦法過來謝謝"},{"start":3997.69,"end":4022.158,"text":"補充一下在輔導裡頭真的職能治療它可能比較屬於這個身體方面的這個會在特教的領域裡頭我們在特教的相關專業人員有包含職能治療師、物理治療師都有而且我們都會透過補助經費讓學校可以為孩子申請相關專業人進到學校來服務主席不好意思我再講一句話就好"},{"start":4025.777,"end":4037.601,"text":"主要真的也是因為有心理師公會的專業心理師告訴我們他們現在在現場遇到的困境就是這個困境確實就是特教生的輔導資源這件事情可能時候在現場會有分工"},{"start":4038.681,"end":4056.107,"text":"主責的問題那我並不是說現場的老師或者是心理師互相推卸責任而是這個孩子的狀態非常特別或是我確實認同他是特教領域可是一旦出現類似議題的時候我們有沒有機會也許我們之後還要再回過頭來修特教法嗎我不是那麼確定也許請司長再回應一下"},{"start":4057.889,"end":4084.378,"text":"歐普通說明 等一下在第五條的時候大家會看得到我們把學生輔智慧的代表加了特教老師代表他就是為了讓他輔導跟特教可以連結那同時在立法說明對於特教跟輔導如文合作立法說明寫得很清楚好 謝謝 這樣可以好 感謝那我們第三條就照題會版本通過好 接下來是我們重中之重的各位來 第四條 天吶 好"},{"start":4088.595,"end":4110.211,"text":"第4條,有范雲委員、林宜瑾委員、張雅琳委員、黃秀芳委員、許智傑委員、柯志恩委員、陳培宇委員、陳秀寶委員、葛如君委員、郭國文委員、林月琴委員、萬美玲委員、修正東藝等下還有羅廷偉委員、張雅琳委員、范雲委員、柯志恩委員還有我們附帶決議。好,我們就一一先來看一下。"},{"start":4110.911,"end":4134.7,"text":"我們現在看條文,來,有誰先要發表一下第四條羅廷偉委員,過來是范雲委員過來是葛如君委員,過來是陳培宇委員好,我們先照這個次序,來,羅廷偉委員好,謝謝昭偉,我想每個委員的版本其實都非常的用心但我們這個用修正動議來提到最主要是第四條的第四項"},{"start":4137.361,"end":4158.294,"text":"我們在最後的我的修正動議最後有把這個新職能治療師列入那希望大家能夠一起來認同職能治療師也能夠列入到這一個任務裡面的編列以上好范雲委員好羅提威委員我講完之後范雲委員"},{"start":4161.541,"end":4179.756,"text":"這題就是目前我們的文字跟教育部體會版本其實是不大一樣的那當然就是教育部的體會版本應該是參照原來的版本來講那我想就是因為問題蠻多的我就先講一部分第一個部分就是關於我們專業團體反映就是希望"},{"start":4181.137,"end":4196.356,"text":"能夠限縮受輔導的學生是與處遇性輔導的情況我們知道教育部覺得這可能是專輔人員的立場希望能夠也支援學校做前兩級因為我們現在三級的分工"},{"start":4197.437,"end":4214.904,"text":"當然這過程中能不能夠尊重專業的主體性我想這個部分教育部有必要說明如果沒有辦法說服我們的話我還是覺得是不是能夠把最專業的人力專注在處理處遇性的輔導這是第一個部分"},{"start":4215.444,"end":4220.789,"text":"關於輔資中心主管,依照教育部統計,目前22個中心只有3位是專輔人員,有3位是專輔教師擔任,也就是專輔人員的主管只佔全部的13.6%。"},{"start":4236.284,"end":4264.818,"text":"如果把專輔教師也算進去的話那其實也只有27.2%那我覺得就是以我們自己在學術界或者在各種工作經驗你主管如果沒有專業的訓練的話他也很難領導那做的決策也可能會被下面的人挑戰所以希望教育部能夠尊重第一現場所反映的經驗那我們必須在條文中就明確的寫就輔資中心的主管"},{"start":4265.418,"end":4267.919,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4291.636,"end":4315.772,"text":"立刻做到所以教育部應該要建立主任督導職務加緊以及專輔人員專業證照加緊的制度以降低人員的流動率穩定跟強健輔導工作進行那大家知道現在其實就資商這些專業在外面市場的行情是越來越高因為整個社會越來越有相關的認知那如果在學校這一塊"},{"start":4316.653,"end":4318.556,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":4335.237,"end":4357.877,"text":"那可是事實上專業的人才其實是有這麼多那他為什麼不願意來校園當中那我也希望我們這一次修法的時候能夠提高就是專業人才的不管是主任督導職務家級或者專輔人員有專業證照的家級的部分那否則以教育部來講的話你現在應聘的人數都沒有聘滿"},{"start":4358.678,"end":4385.349,"text":"我們現在在增加應聘人數可是卻沒有增加薪資的部分來講的話我覺得這個部分沒有辦法留住人才所以這部分也希望能夠在法條當中能夠寫進補法那以為已經講太多我就先針對幾個剛剛比較大的三個主要問題就是主管專業化薪資加急還有是不是能夠限縮在處遇性的輔導就是最專業的"},{"start":4386.309,"end":4412.344,"text":"人力就放在最需要的部分以上葛國勳委員謝謝主席本席的版本主要有三點第一個是透過第二項第一款第六款明確主管機關對專輔人員的統籌配置和運用依據這是第一個部分那第二個部分是在第二項的第二款"},{"start":4413.084,"end":4439.898,"text":"學生輔導基本上是以學生為中心因此家庭跟社區的評估與否希望能夠建議以個案是否有需求來判斷因此若以教育部所建議的第四款個人及系統評估的這個文字本行也是可以接受的一個方式還有第三個部分是比較重點我希望能夠提出就是第三項就是配置行政人力的部分"},{"start":4440.898,"end":4464.932,"text":"這是許多專輔人員長年來的訴求希望教育部可以積極回應大家的需要那我自己也是過去也擔任教師那行政的工作有時候就變成是兼著做那現在其實我們學生心輔還有相關的輔導的需求其實是持續在增加這個需求持續增加啦所以希望能夠這個去思考能不能夠讓輔導人力"},{"start":4467.273,"end":4490.849,"text":"可以更加專心的投入輔導來幫助學生而不是被行政事務過度的綁架那教育部建議的條文當中其實也是有納入行政人員的那但是這個部分預計有沒有思考過預計會增幣多少行政人員回應第一線的需求或者是需要的年度經費又是多少我想有這樣子的一個好的思維想法"},{"start":4491.229,"end":4519.237,"text":"那背後的一些配套的討論是不是有那有的話是不是可以請教育部進行相關的說明謝謝好我們等每個委員意見收集完畢之後我們再請教育部統一回應好不好要介紹的是陳培宇委員好謝謝主席我的部分有點多但我還是希望教育部有回應喔在目前的教育部題會討論版本第二項第二款跟第三款其實是寫在一起的在我的版本我是把它寫在一起喔"},{"start":4519.717,"end":4549.197,"text":"那寫在一起的原因是我認為我們的版本其實是把學輔資中心他們主要的服務對象講得更清楚包含我提到的輔導諮商資源連結醫療轉介等資源學生前述學生轉錢輔導也比較有完整性那把輔資中心的核心任務因為大家知道三期輔導這件事情在這次學輔法裡面是大家關注的重點那我認為就應該要把學輔資中心的核心任務描述得更完善"},{"start":4549.897,"end":4566.289,"text":"所以我的版本裡面的第二項第二款的寫法其實是合併了教育部的二跟三那接下來的在我們自己版本的第二項第三款裡面關於提供學校危機事件相關的事情呢這個部分我是希望限定學校專輔人員提供的服務範圍"},{"start":4567.33,"end":4591.082,"text":"那題會討論的版本在第7款裡面沒有限制職務範圍我們其實看到更多現場的狀況是很多的專輔人員會被要求做專業以外的事務導致人力資源上的浪費那這個部分其實在之前質詢的時候也跟部長討論過真的是很多現場的狀況是這樣所以要拜託教育部在這件事情上積極的處理"},{"start":4592.783,"end":4621.722,"text":"接下來在我們版本的第二項第四款提供學校的學生家長以及老師的專業諮詢服務我們跟教育部版本的差別就是我們的對象包含學生家長跟老師可是題會版本裡面寫的叫做支援這裡我要拜託教育部特別回答所謂支援是指支援誰提供的專業諮詢服務還有題會討論版的適用對象只有老師跟家長"},{"start":4622.903,"end":4624.124,"text":"第2項第8款"},{"start":4640.449,"end":4656.068,"text":"頒禮專業輔導人員之專業增能研習與督導協助規劃輔導教師之專業增能研習還有督導可是我知道現行非常多縣市教育局裡面所處的這些學輔資中心他們其實是希望由學輔資中心來幫助"},{"start":4656.708,"end":4678.065,"text":"當學校的輔導老師辦相關的研習可是其實這會有上對下的關係而且其實這麼多年下來也有很多學輔資中心的這些專業委員告訴我們或者是學校的輔導老師告訴我們其實他們各自的現場所面臨的問題非常的不一樣學輔資中心處理的個案跟服務的對象跟學校極為不同那請他們來規劃研習是好的嗎"},{"start":4680.527,"end":4706.95,"text":"還是過去大家其實只是習慣方便用這個方法那在這次修法裡面是不是要認真討論這個議題那但是我們的版本改成是協助也就是說它可能有一點點像輔導團的概念去協助學校的老師讓他們提出他們的需求或者是分享他們最近所遇到的困境而是由那學府資助中心的角色比較是協助我其實還蠻堅持這件事情我覺得各自專業分工是很重要的"},{"start":4707.791,"end":4723.968,"text":"那另外在題會討論的第三項關於學輔資中心的主管之前在質詢的時候我們也提過目前我知道用所謂的督導啦後用校長比較是行政專長之前國教署署長也有提回應我們說行政專長跟心理輔資專長是不一樣的"},{"start":4728.172,"end":4748.59,"text":"可是到底要由誰的專業來領導整個學輔資中心的運作而行政專長這件事情如果對國教署來說是重要的那到底還有什麼方法可以補足那如果學輔資中心的專業角色在這裡沒有辦法由主管這個角色來提出來我們會覺得我們其實是再次藐視了相關學輔資中心的專業"},{"start":4749.651,"end":4776.601,"text":"那剛剛范委員的版本裡面其實也一再呼應關於專業提升跟專業被尊重這件事情其實非常非常的重要所以我也想要拜託教育部在這件事情上往這裡去規劃其實是比較好的那接下來呢就是心理師跟社工師他們關於這一次組織正式化在學輔資中心我知道還是有很多爭議可能大家等一下需要多多的討論因為如果按照組總的說法可能沒有辦法讓他們整個專業組織化"},{"start":4778.502,"end":4806.134,"text":"那可是我們回過頭來看目前在學輔資中心裡面的心理師這些社工師他們考取的證照他們整個學習的階段那其實時間都非常的長也耗費了非常多成本可是在相關專業的費用支付上我覺得我們真的是虧待這些在現場承接孩子們辛苦的困難這些專業人員所以我想要拜託在這個部分我們是不是可以專業加擠組織正式化這件事情我們多一些討論喔以上 謝謝"},{"start":4808.766,"end":4811.027,"text":"還有沒有委員要發表的好那本席也來做一些的說明我想我們根據今天的這個題會的版本我個人認為第三第三款就是我們在第四條的第三款當中醫學生輔導需求協調及"},{"start":4832.518,"end":4851.631,"text":"連結學生輔導相關單位的資源這一條應該整個把它刪掉因為在我們的第二款當中其實就已經有相當多的一個其實是有點重複的啦大家可以看一下這個字句還有呢第二款裡面所提到的支援我還是個人認為應該是用提供這兩個字"},{"start":4855.573,"end":4882.962,"text":"雖然我知道教育部是認為說用支援的方法好像我們的學資中心就變成是一個輔助的一個角色可是對於學資中心來說很多的狀況之下面他們還是希望能夠是一個比較組織的一個單位支援跟提供還是有它層次上面的一些的一個差別因為然後呢這個東西可以請教育部來參考但是我覺得最重要的最重要的有兩大項大家看到第四款"},{"start":4885.123,"end":4911.003,"text":"裡面裡面提供學校輔導學生之個人及系統評估輔導諮商、服務資源諮詢對不起剛剛每個委員都會特別提到今天修這個法最重要是要是讓我們的專業人員能夠做到非常多專業的事情不要包山包海以輔導之名叫這些人做非常多細項的東西你這邊把它放到服務資源"},{"start":4912.324,"end":4913.386,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":4928.566,"end":4936.89,"text":"這個東西就是我剛剛所說的你會不會範圍太廣大所以我個人認為這一塊應該是把它刪除還有一個非常重要就是在第七塊剛剛幾個委員已經特別提到了你們目前只有統籌調派專業輔導人員支援學校處理危機事件對不起喔如果你只要寫一個危機事件並沒有明確像其他委員所提到的"},{"start":4951.776,"end":4980.296,"text":"其實我們要的是危機事件的心理評估輔導諮商還有資源連結的直接或間接的服務你光是一個危機事件包山包海所以危機事件裡面的什麼樣的部分是需要我們這些專業人員來提供的心理評估輔導諮商及資源連結之直接或間接的服務我覺得這個部分是非常重要的所以一定要把它界定明確清楚"},{"start":4981.256,"end":5008.473,"text":"剛剛很多委員也特別提到就是來自於目前為止照你們的說法在第三項的部分或第四項的部分對不起你們就只有組織好了我們先看第四項好了學生輔導諮商中心的組織建制規劃系列我們每個人都很希望變成法制化可是你光是寫一個組織你們原來還有一個組織規程我們寫的方法叫做有一個組織規程表示我們現在把它法制化可是你現在把它任務編組"},{"start":5009.834,"end":5032.438,"text":"任務編組造成最大的問題是什麼?隨時就可以任務結束就沒有。它沒有一個很穩定。今天修學生輔導法最大的部分就是要穩定這些專業人員。這些人員目前不管的薪資,上次我們在詢問的時候就已經講得非常的清楚,跟專業的、跟一些學校裡面的專輔人員來說的話,光是起薪的薪資裡面就少了一萬多塊錢。你現在又給他任務編組,等一下我們可能要請人事總局也要幫我們算一下。"},{"start":5037.119,"end":5063.928,"text":"如果我們在這個地方裡面我們透過附帶決議或透過其他的方法能夠在這一塊當它不是一個它不是一個法治化的話只是一個任務編組的話是否可以在它的薪資條例上面給予更多的一個保障我們現在先從條文開始我覺得在這個有關於這個任務或者是法治化還有在他們薪資部分裡面因為你的第三項第四項裡面都會牽涉其中我們現在是不是從"},{"start":5065.148,"end":5087.441,"text":"10款當中根據文字上面來做說明 其他請人事總局也在我們後來等一下會有很多委員提出他的附帶決議也一併來做一個說明好不好我們先根據文字上面的這個我們的提案版本裡面這10款目前為止有11款當中來一一做一個說明第二個部分我這第二款裡面支援可不可以變成提供"},{"start":5090.954,"end":5118.556,"text":"這兩個是完全是不一樣的可以嗎 最後一步因為任務很多項很多委員問了很多關注同樣的東西我一一說說說明請說第一款大家相當有共識沒什麼問題第二款就談到委員提議建議把嚴重自我傷害學生放進去那"},{"start":5120.197,"end":5140.78,"text":"我們在徵詢學者專家的意見的時候學者認為嚴重適應困難其實已經包含嚴重自我傷害這樣的類型了是有建議可以 這個文字是不是可以不放對不起 我還是要強調嚴重自我傷害是因為自殺防治是政府的政策我也是學者"},{"start":5141.667,"end":5166.264,"text":"你要不要尊重一下這位學長好 那我們就尊重委員會的結論謝謝這是第二款那至於第三款先說明因為第三款原本有協助主管機關借接社安網有這些文字在那因為這些文字大家蠻多不同意見所以把文字刪掉了所以就剩下這個文字很怪啦所以大家剛才建議說第三款刪掉我們認為應該是可以這樣"},{"start":5167.705,"end":5168.146,"text":"資源改正提供 資源改正提供"},{"start":5182.479,"end":5208.605,"text":"先說一下在輔資中心的任務大家如果回去查查看當初103年立法的時候在第四條的立法說明都說得很清楚他把輔資中心扮演成為學校輔導工作推動的一個專業支持的網絡所以他是從協助支持的立場所以各位可以看到現行法國裡頭多半都用資源的原因是因為學校不可以抽掉"},{"start":5210.636,"end":5233.05,"text":"三級輔導是疊加上去的而不是一磅接一磅的概念所以我們認為輔資中心用資源的角色而不是取代學校的角色那共同因為專業不一樣啦支持介入性的部分會以輔導老師為主儲育性就是以專業輔導人員為主但是共同合作的方式所以我們會覺得應該還是維持資源是比較適切的"},{"start":5237.293,"end":5252.521,"text":"好 等一下因為我們一條一條來這樣因為你講到第四款我還是要特別講一下所以這就是為什麼這第四條當中你必須要把說要處理的對象要把它講清楚如果你的對象講的是一個需要做一個比較嚴重處遇的這個問題的部分的話"},{"start":5255.262,"end":5273.404,"text":"由學資中心來做提供當然沒有問題啊我剛同意你的部分原因是因為你如果沒有把範範進行這個條文你如果能把你的對象你把你的對象集中火力放在嚴重適應困難的學生及其家長跟老師如果你把你的對象放在這個地方的話"},{"start":5274.205,"end":5291.891,"text":"當然是可以做提供啊那你把它變成一個所謂的一個資源的話你就包山包海出去啊所以先把對象確定完之後提供完全沒有問題所以你要整個脈絡來一起來看的好不好如果這樣我想我們可以尊重修改為提供對 你就把對象先設定完之後當然就是提供的問題啊"},{"start":5293.667,"end":5315.841,"text":"對象如果說明確的話這個提供部分沒有問題所以我覺得還是回應到我們今天所修法最大的部分你就是要讓這個學資中心裡面的專業人員只針對非常他們想要嚴重關懷的對象不是包山包海如果把這個對象先框定住了所謂的提供就不是問題嘛要從脈絡來看才對嘛好不好對不對它是嚴重嘛對不對剛才"},{"start":5322.674,"end":5343.302,"text":"第二款支援學校嚴重行為適應困難及改成頓號及改成頓號還有第二個支援改成提供提供啊那個前面加嚴重兩個字"},{"start":5348.139,"end":5376.593,"text":"然後偏差行為偏差學生後面加及嚴重自我傷害學生。對不起喔,你前面支援還是要用提供啊?提供提供,第二項前面支援改提供。因為這對象已經很明確化了嘛。"},{"start":5377.674,"end":5383.799,"text":"提供的對象是學校,所以是學校的輔導室不管是主任、組長或是輔導老師來問,問什麼呢?"},{"start":5406.053,"end":5407.015,"text":"對,這是他提供的諮詢。"},{"start":5418.359,"end":5442.193,"text":"你這頓耗前面的服務資源諮詢就是會讓這些專業人員因為他們過去的實務上面的反應你就會變成一個真的就會變成一個總機跟一個一般性的諮詢全部跑過來他這邊了嘛你就完全沒有辦法focus在很多嚴重的一個學生身上了嘛所以我的建議根本就是服務資源諮詢把它去掉啊好 我們同意去掉"},{"start":5461.816,"end":5476.44,"text":"這個資源?資源轉介本來就是他們當初的一個任務啊那個頓耗留著那個服務資源前面的頓耗要留著喔輔導資產跟資源轉介服務是兩件事"},{"start":5479.797,"end":5500.211,"text":"前面的段浩劉哲資源轉介對資源轉介可以那是本來就是他們的專業服務項目好不好再第7款看一下好不好"},{"start":5502.574,"end":5529.623,"text":"危機事件支點點點施長我先說明因為原本後面有心理諮商會讓大家誤會覺得只有心理師要去協助支援危機事件而且只做心理諮商但確實不是危機事件確實有需要連結社區支援做直接間接的服務所以我柯昌偉的修正動議後面有一段文字我覺得是可以"},{"start":5531.641,"end":5558.067,"text":"心理評估輔導諮商及資源連結之直接或間接服務完全涵蓋到你剛剛所關注的這些的要點啊他有關注到啊你剛剛說他不只有一個心理諮商師還有包括一些社工資源的人他只是把他更具象一點而已啊來 頓浩對啦 可以啦輔導諮商及資源連結之直接或間接服務啊"},{"start":5559.502,"end":5562.266,"text":"以資源連結之直接或間接服務。"},{"start":5577.506,"end":5606.043,"text":"好 再來剛剛講的那個第八款我們已經把它改成是處遇的成效評估就是它只做那個輔助中心自己嚴重的個案的處遇成效評估這已經參採了那第九條先說明原本是協助主管機關規劃與辦理輔導教室的專業正門我們後來思考過其實我們要借重的是它的專業我們不是要把它當成行政人力在用"},{"start":5607.424,"end":5618.375,"text":"所以可以協助主管機關來做規劃但辦理的工作主管機關可以責定適當的學校來做處理這個我想是行得通的這樣可以減輕他們的行政失誤"},{"start":5619.94,"end":5644.888,"text":"你代替他們謝謝你,的確是啦,他們可以來規劃了。那既然要討論到這麼細,那我就再追一下這一句話,謝謝主席。第九款,你讓他們是用協助主管機關規劃專業真人研習,這我沒有意見,及督導工作。你要不要說一下是什麼樣等級的督導工作,跟我們之前要談的督導家級的事情會不會有相關聯?"},{"start":5651.011,"end":5671.222,"text":"請求主席允許發言我先說明那個剛才講的那個督導這裡頭有兩個名有兩個定義一個定義是第四條在第二項那個說說第三項第三項第四條第三項我們有提到說"},{"start":5674.213,"end":5684.185,"text":"專業輔導人員之督導這個督導是一個職稱它的督導對象主要是專業輔導人員那前面回到那個第九項的督導它是針對輔導教師的督導"},{"start":5687.083,"end":5703.163,"text":"先說明一下,因為羅庭委委員有一個修正動議,就是第7條,對於學校的部分那些老師到底怎麼督導的方式,希望再訂在第7條,因為它是針對學校校內的規劃事務,也許可以在那邊再來做處理。"},{"start":5705.506,"end":5727.759,"text":"我還是要這樣講但如果是這樣我覺得這樣的寫法會有很大的爭議因為回到再次那個定義不明因為一下這個督導是這樣不能說我們今天在這裡現場清楚大家就清楚去到縣市政府教育局真的會有困難那既然等一下回到第7條去討論是不是主席允許我再這一條我覺得我先暫時喊就第9款"},{"start":5728.539,"end":5747.357,"text":"先暫時保留好嗎我的保留不是指那個要不要出委員會的保留這個部分討論可不可以等一下回到你剛剛說那個再回來討論到第7條還有羅委員的修正東西是是是好就建議在第7條一起討論啊喔不行第4條太重要了等一下還有專任第9款這個部分你說什麼"},{"start":5748.946,"end":5773.747,"text":"培育委員說的第9款這個部分保留在第7次討論。 是,我們等下第7條再討論,當然。沒問題,我們先保留到用字部分裡面,好不好?然後我們看到第9款的,然後到第10,如果說你把第3條刪掉的話,應該總共只有10款嘛,對不對?應該是只有10款嘛。還有就是,那有關這10款還沒有意見?"},{"start":5776.041,"end":5803.726,"text":"我們往下看我們先看這10款的條文而已好 怎麼樣但我沒有看到我的就是現在你刪掉以後變成原本是11款嘛現在是第10款對第10款的我的修正動議是不是可以幫我移到那裡沒關係我們等一下記錄委員說的是第7條的修正動議對不對還是第4條沒有第4條第4條我現在在講的是第4條的第10款"},{"start":5805.146,"end":5829.486,"text":"再往下謝謝學生輔導諮商中心再往下謝謝對我們在這個再往下謝謝我希望能夠在這個第10款的第二段不是那已經是第二項了你在說第二項嗎第三項嗎第三項"},{"start":5833.035,"end":5855.712,"text":"我這裡是寫第四項不好意思第四項第四項就第四條的第四第四條的第四項是不是對我希望能夠增加這個職能治療師這個應該在第六條可以訂欸你大家看第六條訂欸你不用在這個地方訂欸第六條有職能治療的這個部分你不用在這個地方做一個處理"},{"start":5858.373,"end":5880.487,"text":"可是第四條之一有寫設置設公司心理師職能我只可以講說我不敢說跳過第四跟四之一然後在第六條處理因為我怕他權益受損我希望四條等一下等一下我們對如果呼應委員說的那你們的專業人力的寫法"},{"start":5882.037,"end":5888.585,"text":"我就是要在專業人力那邊要補足說到底誰叫做專業人力不要去模糊學生輔導中心應設置"},{"start":5892.358,"end":5907.607,"text":"不是 剛剛那個我們司長已經有特別提到了專業人力指的部分職能治療的這個層面他是放在比較是身體放在特殊教育裡面會做一個處理在我們這個地方裡面我們的職能治療是不放在我們專業人員這邊來做處理剛剛司長在這個界定層面上面是這樣來做看法"},{"start":5913.757,"end":5940.598,"text":"福島法比較偏向心理健康跟健全人格的部分。 那個職能治療師他比較偏動身體的健康那個在特殊教育裡頭我們職能治療師、物理治療師、什麼聽力師、語言治療師那個都我們叫特殊教育相關專業人員在特效法裡頭還有特效法執法裡頭有詳細規範而且我們部還有署都有補助經費給學校可以聘相關人員入校服務"},{"start":5942.139,"end":5960.937,"text":"我們可以跟委員做補充資料當然我尊重市長的說法但是因為我們就擔心說當然心理的部分因為有自我傷害到身體的狀況那我們是希望說當時的我的想法因為有身體上的傷害可能職人治療師可以介入去協助那沒關係我們從後面再來討論沒問題好"},{"start":5963.673,"end":5991.512,"text":"來我們現在基本上面就往下走然後呢我們看到這十款完之後接下來比較重要的還是來自於各位我們還是看一下下面的第二項第三項裡面有關於不好意思剛剛我們有一些臨時附帶決議的這個層面就會是提到大家所關切因為你現在所看到的是只是來自於對於他的任務編組因為他只有組織然後呢"},{"start":5993.794,"end":5996.699,"text":"還有葛如軍委員的裡面都有我們是不是可以順便附帶來去看待"},{"start":5999.72,"end":6024.517,"text":"對 不好意思 對不起 請允許我說一下我們很希望在第三項的部分裏面學生輔導資訊訓練組織建制規劃裏面大家再看一下有推動運作等等我是不是可以加入人員資格領選我可以加入聘用在這個商界跟領選中間是加入聘用我覺得這樣會更完整一點加入聘用這兩個字"},{"start":6028.966,"end":6042.792,"text":"對 聘用 可以嗎 教育部我說一下因為這條跟第11條的授權執法會有很多界界的部分那第4條的執法偏重在組織以及向主任向督導聽懂了"},{"start":6044.613,"end":6046.474,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6066.553,"end":6087.004,"text":"好 那個我們先說明剛才柯常委有提到類似的問題因為有建議條文用組織規程而不是組織兩個字那我要說明一下組織規程這四個字連在一起在法律上的專業名稱它是指的是正式的機關才能用規程這是我很希望用的"},{"start":6089.492,"end":6108.848,"text":"法治化就是在這個屬實規則。 法治化就是在這個屬實規則。好,那我説明一下有個困難是,像國教署管那麼多國立跟私立高中職,但是它因為它是中央機關,它會受到中央行政組織準則的限制,就是這個作用法不能訂組織法,所以不能在裡面設正式的規則。"},{"start":6110.862,"end":6130.589,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文"},{"start":6134.397,"end":6163.729,"text":"要增加機關只能裁減機關除非有限制扣打沒用完那這一條一樣第四條的這個立法理由在103年定的時候說很清楚他沒有排除說你不能成為正式組織可以的你可以成為任務編組或者也可以地方政府依地方制度法成為正式組織就是103年立法理由就已經定得很清楚可是現在這裡頭全部都改成一致他就會跟中央的法律跟地方的法律會有焊隔之處"},{"start":6165.071,"end":6171.339,"text":"其實你剛剛說的組織,對不起我先請林益勤委員,他剛有舉手沒有呼籲到,我再來。"},{"start":6173.695,"end":6200.612,"text":"我是覺得這個輔資中心還是你如果要採任務編組你就效能跟經驗上其實都欠缺穩定性我覺得這也是這部法很重要的一個這個關鍵那所以我覺得還是要有正式編組那當然你剛剛說這個法令上會有所焊隔這個我覺得可能還要再我們待會再研議看看"},{"start":6203.783,"end":6207.208,"text":"可是在所謂的中央法令上我們訂正式編組"},{"start":6210.935,"end":6235.652,"text":"對 因為我覺得你如果而且我覺得可以採類似的日出條款的方式就是說我們給教部有準備的時間嘛那所以說從2028開始逐年編列這個預算跟緣額那地方政府也可以一起來完成這個輔資中心的正式編組的建制那同時也可以給予主任啊督導這種人員合理的行政這個職務的加擠那也要給這個專輔人員這個專業的證照加擠"},{"start":6240.835,"end":6241.495,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":6262.961,"end":6290.923,"text":"我完全同意我們林昭偉的看法這個我們充分討論其實我跟各位所有的委員報告其實這裡面大概第4條第10第11條這3條是最重要的所以特別是第4條裡面法制化有問題的話可不可以用其他附帶決議來做決定因為我說實在的如果你沒有辦法適時提高這些人員的這些薪資的話人員的流動你這個法修了"},{"start":6291.664,"end":6293.826,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":6311.85,"end":6337.499,"text":"請求發言我先說國教法跟特教法都去年中綱修對不對各位有沒有印象縣市裡又在推了包括縣市的教育網路中心特教資源中心是不是也很重要那國教法跟特教法已經撞來撞去撞來撞去撞到最後就是卡在我剛才講的這個問題所以它沒有辦法成為在法令裡頭把它定為正式的組織這是第一個"},{"start":6339.522,"end":6359.89,"text":"懸見不遠 剛剛提到有薪資的問題剛才因為范委員陳委員還有昭委還有伊金委員都問到這件事我先說明因為我們盤過第一個現在的這個我們可以採用主管家級他就是正式編制才能主管家級那我們有我們目前是採用專案計劃的方式給計劃組織的費用一個月6000塊那將來"},{"start":6365.454,"end":6381.535,"text":"法規由中央會同地方定之後,我們會把它證明為兼職費。比照國教法跟特教法,它叫兼職費。然後那個督導的部分我先說明一下,我們目前的這個政府人員設置辦法裡頭,督導它的敘心起點。"},{"start":6383.103,"end":6411.372,"text":"高於現在的專輔人員然後續薪的上限也高於行政人員基本上對於專輔人員但督導仍然是有誘因的可是如果要賦予督導有一個類似督導的家籍這個就是名為家籍就是薪資待遇的一環就得要報行政院人事總署核准才行這有還包括剛才專業證照的那個專業家籍或專業津貼也是一樣你的家籍是多少啊"},{"start":6412.483,"end":6415.005,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":6431.161,"end":6458.054,"text":"如果你沒有辦法把它今天修這個法的最主要的目的你沒有辦法把它正式化基本上我們大家都非常的失望但是你如果沒有把它正式化你一定要用其他的方法來去補足這一塊因為你最主要就是要讓這些人不要你要穩住它不要讓它流失嘛 對不對所以你可不可以看一下我們就請教這個教育部衛生福利部後續辦理的部分我可不可以請大家看一下我所提出來附帶決議誇記了誇記了"},{"start":6460.575,"end":6460.755,"text":"請勿模仿"},{"start":6478.635,"end":6498.395,"text":"我們法治化的緣故其實最主要的問題就是穩定穩定這些人嘛然後你的心思上面你也照著這個程序來你可以你可以往往上去看嘛可不可以請我們這些人事行政總處的這個部分裡面也稍微看一下有沒有有沒有可能我覺得我們都是有有參看的"},{"start":6499.856,"end":6519.787,"text":"對 附帶決議 附帶決議裡面我所提出來附帶決議啊像心理師證照者你目前是以7等1階328新點起薪嘛那你那個進敘的新點最高可以到8.7階那專輔人力的話如果是督導的話應該以原薪晉級1階起算嘛最高可以到9等6吧"},{"start":6520.367,"end":6535.184,"text":"你如果沒有辦法有這些都是完全是參看我們也是完全是參看其他具有高考資格的衛福部的這些部分裡面來做這個處理有沒有可能各位沒有薪資的提高你留不住人講這些都沒有用"},{"start":6536.701,"end":6538.502,"text":"委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":6567.521,"end":6595.492,"text":"不之前的問題但是我覺得應該要努力爭取啦行政院的部分也是可以大家一起來努力所以這個部分是不是不要今天訂案說不放在條文中就是這個正式化的一個部分我個人覺得已經躺了躺了一年四個月其實就在這個地方在保留委員會中心我告訴你我們委員會裡面每個人都還是專業你到了一般院會裡面當中的話我跟你說這又是沒完沒了的院會當中又沒有辦法今天要有某種程度的共識啦"},{"start":6596.152,"end":6615.817,"text":"沒有這個東西的話,我覺得這部法完全是沒有用的啦。我剛說了這部法裡面第4、第10、第11是重中之重。其實這幾條把它完整完之後,特別是第4條裡面在這個薪資的部分,我覺得我們可以再多做討論。來我們請人事。"},{"start":6618.078,"end":6628.97,"text":"我們人事行政總署來說明一下好不好我們先聽他的意見一下還沒有嗎他已經站起來了我們人事處想要爭取要先補充發言好 我們教育處長"},{"start":6631.311,"end":6655.492,"text":"王處長講完我們請說王處長跟委員報告就是有關正式化跟那個薪資待遇的部分首先就薪資待遇的部分說明一下其實薪資待遇的結構是根據不同的身份屬性有所區別那我們今天討論到的不管包括主管家級不管包括專業家級事實上他都是有公務人員資格的"},{"start":6656.112,"end":6656.933,"text":"公務人員擬具公務人員擬具"},{"start":6674.372,"end":6695.794,"text":"越籌標準來做處理,所以說我如果在條文裡面明定說對於所有的專輔人員都要訂定加級的話,這個會跟相關的待遇法令是有漢格的,這是第一點要說明。那當然我們也可以在薪資待遇的待遇標準,聘僱人員待遇標準的這個設定上面,我們可以根據不同的工作的內容,比如說"},{"start":6695.974,"end":6713.679,"text":"一般的專輔人員或涉及督導任務的職責程度不一樣,都可以在新點上做適度調整,在現行的聘僱人員規定是可以處理的。至於正式單位部分,組織有一個彈性,如果根據我們現行的條文是陰色,"},{"start":6714.959,"end":6731.67,"text":"負導諮詢諮商中心應設輔導諮商中心事實上他也保留了可以用正式單位也可以用任務編組的彈性那我如果說明定是要用正式單位的話那我他就變成說他已經失去了這個彈性變成說只能夠用正式的機關來設立"},{"start":6732.811,"end":6751.453,"text":"那如果整個設立機關的設立法,一方面它可能會讓地方政府的組織權限會受到一定的影響二方面中央政府機關行政機關組織基準法也有規定不能夠在作用法裡面規定機關的正式組織所以這個部分可能也跟中央行政機關組織基準法有所漢格那這部分我們或許也可以再看人事總書這邊比較專業的意見以上"},{"start":6753.356,"end":6767.397,"text":"謝謝你的說明但是對我個人來說的話我們這個是希望能夠在法治化沒有辦法完成之下我們才提出這樣一個變通的辦法才是提出一個變通的辦法你如果把法治化更不用提出附帶決議啊對不對這才是基本的方式嘛"},{"start":6770.305,"end":6795.967,"text":"如果要合理的調整有督導那個專輔的督導的人力或者是說主管人力的待遇加級的話待遇標準的話事實上我們可以用附帶決議那邊做為我們未來行政單位的一個指導的原則可是如果要直接定在法條裡面的話這個部分會建議就是說就會失去那個彈性的當然是啊所以我用附帶決議的方法我只看你附帶決議合不合理啊好不好可以討論一下好隔壁軍委員"},{"start":6801.11,"end":6826.167,"text":"本期也有疑案附帶決議和柯之恩召委的這個附帶決議是相同的議題那也希望並同到第4條一併處理同時我想可能不只是我也有其他委員有收到這個陳琴這個花蓮縣的學生輔導諮商中心他們就在提到這個問題就是他們是不是在薪資上面也應該要符合他們的工作"},{"start":6827.047,"end":6854.631,"text":"內容,而不要有這種跟專府教師有落差的狀況,我們也希望今天我們就能夠來協助到他們,謝謝。好,謝謝主席,接下來就是我們羅廷維委員還有吳佩奕委員。好,謝謝主席,剛剛您這邊的說明我可以理解,但是也許可,因為今天我看那個出席的名單還有內政部的民政司還有行政院的行政總署,"},{"start":6855.151,"end":6856.872,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":6880.466,"end":6908.757,"text":"說明之前我們可不可以先接下請羅廷偉委員然後等委員發完一個完畢後我們統一來做回答好不好然後我們請羅廷偉委員接下是吳佩儀委員謝謝我想剛剛人事處講得很清楚我們當然希望保有彈性來處理所謂的正式人員有公務的資格還有聘僱人員反正我個人也是一定要特別的跟部長說一下部長我們在一直在講流動率離職率然後以及薪資沒辦法留下人所以這個東西是重中之重我講"},{"start":6909.457,"end":6933.884,"text":"今天所有的法令這麼的完善結果呢根本沒有人願意來待這份工作也沒有用啊所以我個人覺得薪資好像是整部法令的重中之重先談完薪資再來談其他的法令了所以我覺得今天還是剛剛那句昭偉說的齁我們希望要有一個共識一起出委員會那院會基本上都是委員會制他們會尊重我們但是如果今天我們不希望有什麼保留的部分把這個部分好好的談完"},{"start":6941.987,"end":6958.954,"text":"這個第四條我也認為是重中之重那我們是認為說必須要正式化因為剛突然說你們說明說得是也可以可以正式有中心也可以有任務編組但是我們就是擔心說最後通通都是任務編組的話我們這一條好不容易申服法我們討論了這麼久"},{"start":6960.835,"end":6975.983,"text":"這次終於有契機大家可以有共識結果這條你沒把它修進去我們還是沒有幫到現場的這些人員幫不上忙啊所以我覺得這個我看不出來這個有那麼樣自然難行之處我認為我們還是要想盡辦法"},{"start":6977.384,"end":7004.031,"text":"即便你不是用法制的方式處理也要讓它是盡量是在制度上面它是能夠正式化的那尤其是講到這個專輔人員的薪資我也是非常的贊成跟支持不是不能做之前我們也曾經一致性的給社工從舊制轉新制通通調整增加的新點都是名列把它訂定清楚的所以我想這個我們做得到那如果說生輔法討論這麼久"},{"start":7006.273,"end":7019.242,"text":"最後第四條你也沒有把它中心正式化然後薪資也沒有調到那我覺得這個功虧一簣我們先從人事行政總處我們先從副人事長先講一下然後再請內政部的謝謝主席還有各位委員"},{"start":7042.456,"end":7059.062,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位代表我簡單報告一下第一個如果就目前教育部所提的法律來看就是我們最左邊這個來看依照為什麼講到錢就聲音就沒有?講到錢都沒聲音嗎?"},{"start":7062.233,"end":7063.715,"text":"好 主席各位 主席各位 喂喂喂 有聲音嗎 喂喂喂 喂喂喂"},{"start":7079.59,"end":7098.276,"text":"主席各位委員各位各級官代表我簡單報告一下第一個如果就目前我們那張大的表的最左邊以教育部目前這個草案來講因為我們從組織的立場來看事實上它是保留可以正式組織也可以不正式組織都可以並不代表說沒有寫它就不能成為正式組織這個是我們從組織法的立場來看這個條文是這樣的"},{"start":7102.697,"end":7122.305,"text":"第2個就是說如果他是一個正式組織的話那麼人員待遇譬如說單位的主管他一定會回歸到他的職務列等是什麼樣的列等他就支什麼樣的待遇這是因為他會變成一個就是公務人員的這樣的待遇架構那如果他是任務編組的話那當然譬如說那個任務編組的主管就是"},{"start":7122.805,"end":7147.984,"text":"這個leader他就不一定要具有公務人員任用資格這當然這個是可以讓各位委員去思考的包括在上一次會議的時候這政部長也有說明說在實務現場到底能不能找到這麼多具有公務人員任用資格來擔任這個工作這我想我們尊重教育部跟大院的一個審查那另外就是那個主席剛剛您提的這個草案還有包括范雲委員我就一起都報告一下待遇問題"},{"start":7148.985,"end":7166.244,"text":"那待遇問題,因為我們這些輔導老師,事實上這些專業輔導員,他是依照聘用條例在禁用的。本來他的待遇就是可以直接由行政院從他的新點折扣率跟他的新點來做處理,因為這不必入法。"},{"start":7167.104,"end":7189.686,"text":"那另外一個部分就是說我們過去對於那個社工的部分已經處理後來我們心裡我們這個輔導的人也是比照社工假如你具有專就因為他們前提都是具有專業證照吧他進來的前提就必須要有專業證照才能夠擔任這個工作所以我們在新典折合的折合成新台幣的部分已經做了一個處理他完全是跟跟社工是一樣的"},{"start":7190.768,"end":7204.045,"text":"委員您提的第一點這部分當然我們尊重教育部跟貴委員會最後的決定所以我們沒有特別意見我只是簡單對於委員您提的這個"},{"start":7206.775,"end":7220.425,"text":"第二點因為這個部分我們查過因為當初社福部為什麼會有這個計畫是因為社福部所補助的這些人很多是沒有這些專業證照的所以他們為了鼓勵你"},{"start":7221.286,"end":7241.32,"text":"所以說如果你進來以後後來你取得專業證照我做有加薪的概念給你們補上去那我們的前提是我們進來就一定要有專業證照而且我們專業證照在新年責任率上已經在資產教育部跟行政院我們都有討論過已經有給他提高所以這部分我簡單跟您報告一下那另外後面有第一"},{"start":7241.9,"end":7242.861,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":7259.101,"end":7259.942,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":7279.93,"end":7307.182,"text":"主席委員內政部報告依據地方制度法第18跟第19條的規定直轄是縣市的組織設立及管理是自治事項所以我們本來就是如果委員提案原來在地方政府他的輔導諮商中心從任務編組朝向設置正式化組織的話還有原額的話我們建議是由地方政府由其業務需求跟分工本自治權責自行決定以上"},{"start":7308.16,"end":7335.515,"text":"好 收到 下一步所以我剛說我提的這個附帶決議我剛聽的剛剛人事總署對於我所提出的第一款第一條是目前是尊重嗎沒關係 可以 後段我可以不堅持但是好 利益不一樣 好 可以但是第一項可以吧 第一款"},{"start":7337.593,"end":7344.164,"text":"第一款尊重請問現在目前的新點的部分起薪的部分教育部的看法"},{"start":7350.533,"end":7375.581,"text":"我說明一下,因為我們專業輔導人員在薪資真的矮人一等啦,矮人一截啦,尤其在中小學都有專業輔導老師啊,薪水起薪都至少少一萬塊啦。那你都知道啦。知道,我們知道。所以呢?所以我們也希望調整,不過先說一件事情,就是我們目前,其實我們原本專業輔導人員的薪資待遇等等,其實原本是比不上社安網的。"},{"start":7377.301,"end":7403.015,"text":"後來我們努力追趕我們現在已經跟社安網拉平了唯一他們有危險佳績我們沒有這個調整會碰到面臨一個問題是我們這邊一動之後跟社安網會有某種程度的聯動關係會造成人員流動這件事情討論上我們會建議慎重起見其實是需要教育部跟衛福部整體一起談然後我們也建議這樣來談的時候行政院人事總處可以參與進來我們會朝這個方向去努力"},{"start":7405.376,"end":7405.717,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":7420.865,"end":7432.573,"text":"你意思是說我們一調高他們人就來我們自己上班?對阿 會阿 因為他那裡社工在外面跑他們的工作其實比我們可能更辛苦他們是家訪 家訪會有一些危險"},{"start":7457.309,"end":7458.25,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":7481.125,"end":7493.194,"text":"因為聘僱人員他是有一個依照資格條件去設定那個薪資的等級的。我看到林雅琳常常都這個臉,因為她們長得很像女生,她們頭髮可以超越老男生。"},{"start":7504.343,"end":7507.726,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":7527.242,"end":7529.043,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":7542.393,"end":7551.258,"text":"他有這個懷疑說是在幫助行銷的這件事情,他有承諾嗎?從他們大方的講說?請銷的喔?喔喔喔,這是OK的,好。"},{"start":7574.063,"end":7588.99,"text":"對阿!不要逼我喝阿!對阿!可是這樣學生實務上會不會好?學校就在那邊說我還要做問卷讓學生去選對阿!"},{"start":7596.093,"end":7598.935,"text":"李柏毅等18人擬具李柏毅等18人擬具李柏毅等18人擬具"},{"start":7614.264,"end":7616.066,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":7633.004,"end":7636.885,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":7659.349,"end":7664.554,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":7679.348,"end":7683.232,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":7693.902,"end":7710.867,"text":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":7711.187,"end":7714.55,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":7726.72,"end":7730.263,"text":"這條到底要不要保留?你們自己要讓我們都不管嗎?"},{"start":7745.456,"end":7749.758,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":7779.435,"end":7792.944,"text":"我只問你們歷史條有沒有要保留?你們如果沒有要保留我也不管你們,就過就過啊,有什麼關係?保留你們自己要強硬你們自己要妥協都不管你們,說真的,你們自己講的都不堅持,你們要保留你們自己要講清楚"},{"start":7796.011,"end":7817.939,"text":"對阿,要保留,你們自己要捍衛清楚阿,我們立場不捍衛我們可不可以幫你們講?你們自己在那邊想要做人情才不幫你們捍衛?對阿,部長你要搞清楚,我們今天要保持一個你們要保,你們自己人不要堅持我們不幫你們講,你們自己要捍衛清楚,我們是不好的阿"},{"start":7819.179,"end":7830.742,"text":"否則我每一條都過,你們要保留自己要講清楚,你們想要討好招惹,你們每次都這樣,沒有院版是你們的問題不是我們問題,過就過啊。"},{"start":7845.766,"end":7852.07,"text":"所以你們要保,你們講清楚我們可以幫你們暫時,你們自己不夠清楚我要不關你們的事,通通都過我沒意見"},{"start":7875.846,"end":7879.449,"text":"他是說那是正常社會的那種表態,就像法國主要的主要形式。"},{"start":8059.394,"end":8060.734,"text":"委員范雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案。 彭佳琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8078.223,"end":8094.631,"text":"現在主席因為我比較晚進來那針對我本身我自己的案子的部分因為前半段大家都討論過了那我就不再贅述但是我這邊有一個就是說關於這個輔治中心正式化的這個部分雖然教育部這邊有說是受限於地方政府的這個機關數的問題需要再跟內政部這邊的討論但是我這邊會希望說"},{"start":8099.914,"end":8127.933,"text":"就算說你現在有這樣的限制也有附帶決議要請教育部跟內政部在一定的時限裡面來研議那輔治中心編制正式化其實對於學校的輔導作業推動也是比較有助益的所以這邊是不是教育部你們可以說明一下說你們後續推動的規劃就是你們預計有什麼時候有一個期程來對這個整個的正式的它比較就是正式的正式化的這個推動呢你們是如何規劃的以上"},{"start":8132.297,"end":8133.758,"text":"彭主席彭主席"},{"start":8154.358,"end":8173.2,"text":"如果要專業教育部的條文已經寫很清楚就是要這完全支持大家用專業在領導這個沒有問題所以跟培育委員也報告一下剛剛有講到說部裡面書裡面怎麼樣其實已經有很明確主管就是專業人員在那個後段有寫接著這個組織的專業化"},{"start":8175.732,"end":8195.957,"text":"其實它的運作比起它是否一定要正式化等等來的重要的時候我們來看是正式化好還是長設任務編組然後它絕對永續的好我們以這兩點來做比較正式化剛才任總有表達"},{"start":8197.335,"end":8203.986,"text":"如果裡面是用公務員我跟各位委員報告一下剛剛范雲、張偉有提過現在專輔人員我們在禁用的時候應該要776位"},{"start":8211.767,"end":8231.915,"text":"這個沒有一定要公務員資格喔只佔用到653位83%點多未來公務員化公務員化這個口呢漏斗口會更小所以大家所設想的正式化似乎還要點討論它到底是有助於專業化"},{"start":8233.704,"end":8260.641,"text":"還是它是只是公務化因此如果要達到委員所設想的部裡現在想是尊重專業所以主管已經設專業了現在人員的部分我們建請委員可以考慮才比較能夠保障這些人的權益提升他薪資啦加給等等以及禁用的彈性專業人員禁用到這個場域的彈性來服務"},{"start":8261.562,"end":8277.68,"text":"以我對於專業人員這一條以及第11條我非常感謝全台灣的22縣市非常的感謝這一群夥伴如果改變成公務化正式化不是很清楚未來我們禁用的夥伴人員可能資格會變少公務化的情況會不會影響到專業的發揮"},{"start":8283.497,"end":8287.38,"text":"雖然他可能在行政的領導上權威變強或是感覺比較踴躍但踴躍的對照而言常態任務編組絕對踴躍絕對踴躍沒有一個縣市敢做處理而且他功能那麼強所以以上做兩點比較就主管的部分已經教育部版本已經專業化了"},{"start":8304.605,"end":8314.492,"text":"人員部分建請委員會可以考慮仍然保有專業化但是這一次蠻強調他的不管各種保障剛才張偉也加了聘用"},{"start":8320.663,"end":8337.046,"text":"沒關係待會我們再來說明在後面整體也有相關的三級的保障我覺得這次修法不必特別以第四條有沒有正式化當一個里程碑而是有沒有更專業化讓這些人員的運用更能夠服務我們的夥伴而我們剛才所提的現在是比較能夠吻合彈性禁用然後薪資也有像昭偉所提的這樣我們來強化的話更能夠吻合現場持續向上的提升以上補充"},{"start":8350.475,"end":8356.357,"text":"哇塞 署長你講一大堆 我現在只要加薪 好不好所以到底要怎樣來 我們先請林映菁委員我能理解那個彭署長的說法喔可是我還是納悶的是說 其實正式的編制絕對比你所說的常態的任務編組更穩定我想這句話應該不用質疑啦 對不對"},{"start":8378.954,"end":8385.385,"text":"正式的編組 也未必全然是公務人員"},{"start":8395.316,"end":8411.349,"text":"負資中心是在辦理處遇性的輔導協助資源的學生是處境最困難的學生那你輔資中心如果不是正式編組薪資待遇怎麼會好這個我覺得我想不透啦"},{"start":8412.71,"end":8422.815,"text":"說真的一定是這樣你一個所謂的不管是你是常態性的任務編組或者是只要是牽扯到任務編組我覺得給人的感覺就不是那麼的穩定因為是任務雖然你加個常態性那我覺得長期的不足額的聘任高離職率這都是我們最擔心的就是不能給孩子最穩定跟持續性的輔導"},{"start":8440.063,"end":8448.634,"text":"所以我覺得這一點我還是還蠻堅持的就是說一定要正式組織的編組我覺得這樣子才會穩定我們訂這個學生輔導法的這個關鍵的靈魂 謝謝好 陳佩玉委員"},{"start":8458.325,"end":8482.115,"text":"等下陳培委員發言完畢之後本席就是我們回到第4條把我們整個條文的字句先確定完之後我們再處理我們剛剛各委員所提出的附帶決議陳培委員關一下是許智傑委員好謝謝主席那既然要回到那個逐字的條文我想要問一下因為剛剛那個不管是前哪邊是我就不再說了我已經說明過了但是你們在這個提案討論版本第6頁"},{"start":8483.716,"end":8490.238,"text":"本條第三項所稱具輔導專業專長者是指本法第三條之輔導教師和專業輔導人員及曾任輔導主任三者為限。但實務上學校裡面曾經擔任過輔導教師的不見得有足夠"},{"start":8511.392,"end":8528.43,"text":"專業背景的輔導專業因為前一波學輔法在修的時候其實當時現場是有很多快速的人就擔任了輔導人員還有曾任輔導主任不要欺騙大家的現實是很多輔導主任也沒有輔導專業"},{"start":8531.073,"end":8547.924,"text":"所以我們真的要這樣談這一題嗎可能大家因為剛剛在炒那個錢編制我要提醒一下司長這樣寫法很可怕又把那個我們擔心的專業部分又模糊掉了趙偉你有看到那個說明對 趙偉可能剛剛也來不及看到所以"},{"start":8549.121,"end":8560.97,"text":"我真的只想到錢,我要當一個烏鴉嘴來提醒一下,這個承認輔導主任、專業輔導人員跟輔導教師是不是我們一直在談的那個專業,請教育部說明,謝謝。謝謝培育委員的提醒,來范雲委員,對不起,先許志傑委員。謝謝主席部長,大家好。我們其實在專業輔導在學校裡面,通常都是學校為主,輔導為輔。"},{"start":8579.002,"end":8602.553,"text":"所以我們要讓輔導為輔、專業為主所以這個當然需要有專業的老師那我也希望說能夠有固定的編組啦這樣子才能夠長期的發揮這個輔導的功效那當然這個中央政府跟地方政府之間的分擔這個我們不清楚的地方我們另外在意但是我們最後的目標還是要用專業輔導能夠固定編組這個才是輔導要走的正式之道"},{"start":8609.632,"end":8632.641,"text":"接下來是范雲委員關還是萬美玲委員剛剛許智傑委員的意見我也很贊同我有另外一個意見就是我們現在教育部提會討論版的第6款支援學校辦理系統整合制個案會這個部分能不能夠提前到第4款因為它的重要性我們專業團體的意見是覺得"},{"start":8636.223,"end":8636.724,"text":"外媒允委員"},{"start":8657.645,"end":8677.232,"text":"因為這一條討論了很久啦那我只針對剛才因為那個署長在回答的時候我有聽到就是說正式化這件事情其實聽起來是我們大家都覺得其實有必要朝這個方向去做那只是部裡面覺得有一些治安難行的地方他不是否定說應該要正式化但是我是覺得是不是能夠請署長再"},{"start":8678.112,"end":8681.335,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":8703.937,"end":8724.072,"text":"剛剛委員用兩個指標一個是專業 一個是永續那我相對就用另外正式的可能大家會討論的常態任務編組來做對照首先就專業而言如果用正式組織跟用常態用正式組織按照現行正式組織機關內人員為公務員剛才已經跟大家報告"},{"start":8728.215,"end":8755.541,"text":"這個要突破這個有全國公務員全國機關體系的全序部跨院的整體全國機關的問題那至於能不能夠再用業務經費外加這個就看我們自己業務都可以來支持大家談信但是就既固定員額而言正式機關其運用的資格有公務員提報等等的程序那我剛才有說明以現行83%的禁用率"},{"start":8757.901,"end":8768.273,"text":"沒有特別限制資格公務員有特別要高考等等的篩選資格受訓、實務訓練、完成訓練之後才正式進入機關這些層層篩選會比現行83%還低因為它門擠更小啦要加一個公務員高考資格"},{"start":8778.422,"end":8787.55,"text":"所以就專業化而言到底是門變小加一個公務員資格來的專業還是現行是比較專業個人覺得現行我訪問過非常多的三級中心他們對現行他們的工作還蠻有成效就機關而言就他們也是把廚藥的工作定義像剛才"},{"start":8801.423,"end":8827.972,"text":"趙薇講的那樣弄清楚應該是蠻能發揮的第二就永續這個指標永續不管正式化或常態組織以現行各單位的申訴機制的組織他都永遠在因為法律保障他一定要設所以就永續就專業而言永續是雙方不差就專業而言以現行的實務制度而言他可能會因為受公務員資格的限制而門變小"},{"start":8829.973,"end":8846.502,"text":"更有讓人有想發揮的反而要去考高考以上做永久跟專業的這個兩項度的分析 謝謝專業的輔導人員每個都是高考每一個都是高考過關所以對我個人來說"},{"start":8856.304,"end":8878.648,"text":"我們專業人員的我們稱為高等考試了來我們現在目前來說對我們大家來說就是能夠讓我們這些資輔的專業人力能夠透過薪資上面比現在更高然後能夠穩住他們不要做流失這是我們最大的一個目標那現在聽起來各位包括現在聽起來很顯然把它變成正式編制裡面你牽涉的範圍非常的廣而且你們認為彈性度不高那"},{"start":8889.421,"end":8909.199,"text":"對,然後所以我剛所提出來的第四條當中對於這個新解上面的提升如果可以可行的話大家要不要來思考一下這可以是我們能夠正式化當然最那個那我跟各位保證啊你這個保留協商再把他送出去到院會協商也還是一樣啦"},{"start":8910.06,"end":8935.209,"text":"因為你們的人種長得都一樣啊那個想法都一模一樣啊所以呢還不如在我們這邊如果可以能夠在這個心思上面的彈性上面能夠保障住我覺得這個東西對我們這些專業人員來說起碼是個起步吧如果這點大家沒有如果這邊這點大家認為是可以的話那我們就可以在這個地方來做一個討論啊否則我們卡這邊就是天長地久了好不好各位我們都不想看彼此那麼久可以嗎我們剛剛休息前請他們"},{"start":8941.597,"end":8942.285,"text":"所以現在是不是"},{"start":8944.693,"end":8971.934,"text":"行政院是不是還有王浩在他們要準備報告之前的司長我先說明要把它正式化最困難的一個問題是必須要騰出機關數騰出機關的緣額這兩件事情是最困難的因為在地方制度法裡頭的相關執法機關數是按照人口數按照土地面積按照這個決算的自有裁員的比率去換算之後它有一個規範"},{"start":8972.915,"end":8974.817,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":8993.313,"end":9009.025,"text":"最困難的地方了所以我會覺得剛才那個任總跟那個民內政部都有說明其實地方制度法有賦予他這個全面的空間確實可以的只是難度在前面所以我建議還是附帶決議來思考看看"},{"start":9011.183,"end":9035.043,"text":"還有吳佩玉委員因為這題真的是非常重要因為涉及到待遇、相關、永續等等因為正式化大家的想像不太一樣譬如說我的想像可能是部分公務員其他也可能有不同的方式可能跟你們的想像不一樣所以我是覺得這個部分我們是不是不要這麼快決定就是不要砍死了因為附帶決議的地位跟方便還是"},{"start":9036.505,"end":9047.156,"text":"執說跟大家的想像有差異,所以我是希望這個部分是不是能夠保留,不要今天就做決定說一定要放在條文中或是不要放在條文中。以上。好,我陪議委員。"},{"start":9053.358,"end":9070.628,"text":"這個第四條我還是非常認為我們應該要把正式化入法那我剛剛聽教育部的回覆聽起來並不是在修法立法技術上面不可行而是你們擔心像實務上面可能會有摯愛之處那你們不只一次講到地方的狀況所以我想要請問教育部你們有去了解過嗎就是說我們各個縣市你剛剛講一個是機關數一個是元額數究竟說有困難的縣市有幾個"},{"start":9079.614,"end":9084.656,"text":"是多數還是少數那如果只是少數我們中央有沒有辦法教育部有沒有人來輔導協助呢來調整實務的狀況是如何你們不要只有跟我們說可能會有困難但是到底狀況是怎麼樣到今天都還不知道所以倘若不是修法技術上面不可行只是實務上你們擔心會有問題的話剛剛署長也說還可以再延商"},{"start":9102.543,"end":9116.709,"text":"那給你們時間你們有沒有辦法去把他這個困難有沒有辦法去克服因為我還是認為說既然都要修法了我希望不要妥協我希望要把它正式化還是要把它入法對於現場才會有更具體的幫助"},{"start":9127.756,"end":9153.429,"text":"應該 我們現在最近有了解它的所有運作的概況不好意思 現在還沒有一個使用正式組織的還沒有 還沒有那剛剛幾位委員所談我們其實是覺得可能再一點時間就剛剛所提說如果委員想像說正式化難道不能兼顧專業嗎"},{"start":9155.17,"end":9170.442,"text":"有一個指標就是永續跟專業這件事的專業那其中跟大家報告的高考進行規範他的流程那麼他會不會綁住了一些很有理想專業能力很強的那這個會涉及到全國各機關正式機關內的"},{"start":9171.783,"end":9173.984,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具委員林宜瑾等19人擬具委員林宜瑾等19人擬具委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":9195.65,"end":9206.088,"text":"這些可能他就會變成滿需要再去調查了解因為他就要動用到機關內所有主編的流動以上做分享 謝謝"},{"start":9207.076,"end":9224.969,"text":"好了我問個非常現實的問題每個人都說要給教育部時間給各方面一個時間我現在只問一個非常直接的問題如果這一題我們現在目前為止沒有任何共識我把它做保留你認為到院會去做協商就可以讓它正式化嗎"},{"start":9226.519,"end":9248.527,"text":"如果不行的話我們今天就必須要處理啊否則給予時間你到時候你還要簽到這麼多的單位然後呢大家就一直在那邊卡在那個地方直到協商到院長協商甚至到後面因為這畢竟還要簽到非常非常非常多的部分對不對如果我把它保留送出去成為大家所說我可以把它保留送出去送到院會協商我就可以因為這樣給你們這些時間你們就可以把它變正式化嗎如果不行的話當然要彈性的處理嘛對不對這是個最直接的一個問題啊"},{"start":9256.929,"end":9275.956,"text":"所以你們的建議會是怎麼樣對我來說的話今天修法的最大的準則就是讓這些專業人員我們現在已經可以是不管你是正式化或是你剛說要讓他永續性他到底的薪資就目前的基準點來說你可以提高到多少我的附帶決議這裡面的薪資可不可以接受"},{"start":9277.165,"end":9297.134,"text":"否則的話你送到...過去各位回想一下一年四個月一年六個月搭卡的不就是這些薪資的問題嗎?有因為這樣子要討論就可以把它變成正式化正式化是每個人的期待嘛那你們這樣講了老半天沒有的話送到院會就有辦法正式化如果沒有辦法的話解決是什麼?薪資怎麼辦?就不請給一個回應"},{"start":9302.077,"end":9324.491,"text":"這是重中之重是在這個地方嘛教育部的回應是怎麼樣有沒有辦法跟對或是其他委員的附帶決議可以啊你可以提我們這邊是有根據的而且我覺得剛剛有人回應就是說把心理諮商師綁社公司社公司本身來說的話他的薪資也是非常低的啊可是因為不能超過這個部分然後來這邊卡卡住我們心理諮商師的這樣心急我覺得這樣的說法我也完全不能夠接受"},{"start":9325.111,"end":9325.952,"text":"教育部對於目前為止怎樣做一個回應?"},{"start":9344.735,"end":9347.739,"text":"我們在實務上確實看到專業輔導人員跟國中、國小、高中的專任輔導教師月薪同樣的學歷"},{"start":9360.859,"end":9386.444,"text":"同樣的 症狀不一定因為輔導老師是教師證書這個是心理師 都有症狀 但症狀不一樣但薪水真的就相同年資大概就差距一萬塊左右這是事實所以因為在高中小學以下這個狀況他們會感受到很甚至專業輔導員可能要處理更嚴重的個案所以他們會覺得留不住"},{"start":9387.384,"end":9408.996,"text":"所以中小學確實出現一個情況,當他累積了足夠的經驗他可以獨自成立這個行動心理師,他真的就跑掉了啦那對於學校縣市來講,或者學校來講,他就不斷訓練不斷訓練他在學校輔導學生的這個,尤其是三級輔導是需要合作的他這個經驗是不能累積的,那我覺得我先說這個"},{"start":9411.616,"end":9428.522,"text":"沒辦法提升輔導的品質 確實待遇是最關鍵的一個環節不管正式或者是任務 如果能夠有待遇有所改變 其實是"},{"start":9429.982,"end":9448.414,"text":"是可以實質穩定人力的,可以累積經驗的,但就剛剛講,因為這個附帶決議它就是一個,後續就是要有一個討論的方向,然後還是要到最後行政院點頭,所以這件事情說實在也是要,行政單委要很大的力量才會促成它實現。"},{"start":9453.502,"end":9467.277,"text":"主席不好意思我想講我同意主席說的就是如果說送學生只是讓你們在拖延時間已經拖太久那真的大可不必但是我是從剛剛教育部的回答我認為教育部是努力不夠努力不足"},{"start":9467.717,"end":9467.737,"text":"來 袁總"},{"start":9501.238,"end":9525.973,"text":"主席 各位委員 我就報告一下正式化的概念 因為他的氣不夠 他不想我們這麼有怒氣 他很平和 所以聲音沒有辦法出來那個委員各位 那個召委各位委員 我就報告一下正式化在我們行政機關組織的概念它就是一個政府機關或一個政府正式的組織 那麼當我們說把它正式化 我舉個例子就像"},{"start":9526.693,"end":9527.953,"text":"公務人員擬具公務人員擬具公務人員擬具"},{"start":9554.502,"end":9570.643,"text":"整個國家的官制官規因為今天沒有邀請全序部接下來你這個機關裡面一定會有科研等等這些可能不是各位委員想像的因為他會有一個基準"},{"start":9571.224,"end":9587.417,"text":"他不會說一拖拉鼓的有輔導員或輔導什麼這樣的職稱啦這個是我我們這可能也許我是補充彭書彭書長的講法讓大家有個想像說未來如果他是正式化他會變成什麼樣子我再補充報告一下讓各位參考謝謝"},{"start":9589.898,"end":9590.338,"text":"吳佩儀委員吳佩儀委員吳佩儀委員"},{"start":9610.896,"end":9632.817,"text":"如果你們覺得政治化這個語言叫全部公務員那也可以有不同的方式嘛那我們想要的部分就是說能夠提升待遇然後在法律裡面有這個明確的條文那你要就是說哪一天哪一年開始都可以那就是說剛剛周偉有說協商好像就不會更好"},{"start":9633.437,"end":9657.523,"text":"至少我過去四年的經驗就是說我們協商之後有一半的機會有可能更好所以我的立場是不放棄爭取到更好的狀況因為這個是非常重要的所以我不想要這麼快我們就確定這些正式化相關文字不放在條文中因為我想這個部分對我們基層的學府的專業和諮商這些人是非常重要的"},{"start":9658.383,"end":9683.602,"text":"那如果只用一個附帶決議然後就確定他沒有這樣一個法定地位的話非常可惜那當然就是說我們也是希望你們繼續去爭取那如果正式化這個語言不好的話那也可以給我們其他不同的提案嘛那我的想法是這樣子所以還是希望說這條還有空間再討論那如果大家覺得討論太久的話那就先保留那也許我們最後再回來看看還有什麼解方也可以啊"},{"start":9686.23,"end":9702.503,"text":"陳培宇委員 其實很謝謝教育部跟行政院還有內政部的說明那確實在了解這個狀況底下其實我很想問另外一個問題如果按照朝委現在這個附帶決議我們剛剛快速問了一下教育部這個"},{"start":9703.664,"end":9717.494,"text":"提升上去的薪資我們本來可能以為是地方教育局要承擔但我們現在也不知道你們現在跟地方政府溝通的狀況是如何會不會到最後又要中央政府買單這個是我也很大的疑惑所以也可不可以請你們一併說明"},{"start":9723.458,"end":9749.729,"text":"中央政府會出85%到90%我們自己本黨在做很多事情的時候會在意那個財政機率所以我也不知道這樣是不是符合啦所以也要請教育部說明一下當然我覺得所有的委員都希望這個編制可以更好但是我也很好奇除了薪資這樣調整是不是合宜之外是不是真的都讓教育部買單那正式的編制也有問題我們還有第三條路嗎署長我們很好奇謝謝"},{"start":9752.442,"end":9752.807,"text":"外務委員要發言嗎?"},{"start":9756.235,"end":9782.772,"text":"我是綜合一下因為剛剛本來說兩位發言完就不再講了我覺得綜合一下就是說我們今天去提這個正式化這一點到范雲剛提我可以接受但是我是覺得我們已經討論這麼久了最好是可以把它討論出一個結果出來假設正式化這件事情我們也知道我們提正式化背後的目的是什麼我們就希望可以給這些專府的人力真的能夠透過我們修法來補足不要大家修法修了半天你沒有辦法修得很好的話就忍不來嘛"},{"start":9783.372,"end":9785.114,"text":"中央要負擔85%至90%左右的薪資,我們要考量各縣市政府的財政狀況。"},{"start":9802.61,"end":9819.165,"text":"這個要把它考量進去那我認為大家回到一個面向來看如果教育上教改20年了亂成這個樣子了那尤其現在學服法如此重要假設我們全部的focus通通放在經費上面對這個修法是沒有幫助的我們可以思考一下"},{"start":9828.005,"end":9849.914,"text":"剛剛委員其實很明確地把為什麼要正式化的幾個內涵說得很清楚。第一,待遇要好。第二,要穩定。正式化覺得比較穩定。第三,就剛才我跟大家也分享,大家也一直很堅持這次修法當然還是要做到專業的意義跟目的。所以待遇、穩定跟專業。那我們是不是這樣,"},{"start":9851.575,"end":9867.779,"text":"連委員裡面有提到正式化這三個字能不能變成我們先解決穩定就常設化就大家不必一定要在正是與否間好像今天走不下去那我們就來解決第一個要穩定那我們就給它常設就避開到底正式化會不會變成一個機關化去了"},{"start":9877.199,"end":9878.1,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":9891.704,"end":9913.9,"text":"我們今天做的我查一下歷年來不管省預算、省國教法、德教法所有附帶決議至少我這6年來還有我們部長、次長這邊我們全部都當委員會教文會的附帶決議是我們辦事的依據絕對做包含代理老師包含師生筆的降低都做"},{"start":9914.841,"end":9929.595,"text":"所以待遇的部分因為不能夠用這步法寫待遇但是以往做相關人員禁用像師生筆要花再多錢行政院也支持附帶決議在教文會是非常有效而且能夠達到"},{"start":9931.016,"end":9947.011,"text":"委員要的那個待遇提升的意旨也有它的有效性所以穩定有效提升待遇剛才專業已經在講我就不重複以上就待遇穩定專業能不能夠請委員也指導一下說"},{"start":9948.012,"end":9964.049,"text":"那個正式化衝擊到的可能會讓我們這個條文會卡到某一種的光譜的一端怕大家覺得其實也不是那麼樣我們講開來的其實是穩定其實要注意它的待遇那我們就直接去處理那兩件事大概是這樣那專業又能顧"},{"start":9972.432,"end":9977.574,"text":"最後一個發言好不好我是覺得一下叫我們委員而且我們今天這屆很多新委員什麼正式化然後剛說什麼常態化常識化到底差異是什麼大家都需要花點時間我也不能今天就署長說的就對啊因為我們過去的經驗有的時候最後會發現有一些地方沒有照顧到那這一點就是說討論了這麼久如果周圍覺得就是說"},{"start":9999.182,"end":10017.957,"text":"是不是放到最後我們再回來我們先進入別條是先保留到最後我們再來看看能不能解決好不好那個我們先看第4條的條文好不好附帶決議我剛剛的新知識在附帶決議上面所以我們是不是在第4條前面的幾款當中先來做一個處理還是一句話吧來我們先來看一下我覺得第4條很重要如果第4條我剛剛已經說過第4條第10跟第11"},{"start":10021.98,"end":10031.583,"text":"其實都是環環相扣的第四條雖然花這麼久時間來處理可是它就是幾乎佔據整部法的三分之二的嘛 對不對我們是可以從條文上面來去看我們務實一點啦如果你們大家幾乎從剛剛教育部的反映當中正式化是不太可能"},{"start":10040.827,"end":10058.924,"text":"正式化是不可能長社是有可能然後長社當中提高薪資是有可能那如果是這樣子的話各位委員是不是可以從這個方向來去做處理否則沒完沒了我也不相信送出這個委員會之後他們還有辦法把你這些正式化如果是不可能人總在這邊"},{"start":10060.697,"end":10081.649,"text":"不可能是正式化就直接說明嘛不要讓我們這樣出去又是一直緩緩緩對我個人來說送出去之後能夠增加他們的薪資這起碼是跨出第一步嘛 對不對所以說以這個為原則以這個為方向那個才是我們今天最大的一個重點我們從這個部分過來大家看一下這是大家綜合每一個委員的一個意見第四條各機關主管"},{"start":10084.671,"end":10102.923,"text":"各級主管機關為執行學生輔導行政工作應指定學生輔導專責單位或專責人員辦理各項學生輔導工作之規劃及執行事項高級中等以下學校主管機關應設學生輔導諮商中心其任務如下請各位委員看一下一是統籌規劃配置及運用專業輔導人員二"},{"start":10107.406,"end":10117.008,"text":"提供學校嚴重適應困難、嚴重行為偏差學生及嚴重自我傷害學生之輔導、諮商、轉介及轉嫌服務。提供學校輔導學生之個人及...對 直接講 你就直接講"},{"start":10138.709,"end":10167.792,"text":"系統評估提供學校輔導學生之個人及系統評估輔導諮商資源轉介服務支援學校教師及學生家長專業諮詢服務這邊我有意見喔剛剛教育部答應說我那個說建議第6是叫巷還是款調到這個4這個位置你們剛剛說這樣OK啊這是重要性的"},{"start":10168.653,"end":10170.294,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":10195.047,"end":10219.4,"text":"現在是有點錯的是校園事件那個往前調所以不是整合不是個案會議是危機統籌調度請看第六款剛才范委員的意思想表達的是第六款統籌調派專業輔導人員這一款移到第四款然後系統整合的個案會議移回第六款對"},{"start":10229.404,"end":10232.446,"text":"第四款是統籌調派專業輔導人員支援學校處理危機事件之心理評估、輔導諮商及資源連結之直接或間接服務。"},{"start":10248.226,"end":10260.024,"text":"第五款是支援學校教師及學生家長專業諮詢服務這一條我剛剛有提醒教育部他們的版本裡面只有提到學校教師及學生家長但是我有提到應該要含學生"},{"start":10262.248,"end":10279.805,"text":"其實直接對學生服務的這一塊在前面的第二款跟第三款就有了那這邊是針對沒有提供支援的教師跟家長錢款就已經有條列了來我們看第五"},{"start":10281.803,"end":10285.765,"text":"第5支援學校教師及學生家長專業諮詢服務第6支援學校辦理系統整合之個案會議第7進行輔導處域成效評估及嚴重個案追蹤管理第8辦理專業輔導人員之專業職能研習及督導工作並得協助主管機關規劃輔導教師之專業增能研習及督導工作"},{"start":10310.62,"end":10333.896,"text":"第九款 協助主管機關推動重大學生輔導政策第十款 其他與學生輔導相關事宜之規劃及推動然後接下來請大家注意看一下我們在第二項當中學生輔導諮商中心應配置主管人員專業輔導人員、專業輔導人員之督導及行政人力主管人員應由學校主管機關領選具輔導專業專長者擔任然後接下來是"},{"start":10339.764,"end":10362.496,"text":"學生輔導資商中心之組織、建制規劃、設施設備、推動運作、人員資格、領選、商界、培訓、獎勵與學校之協調聯繫及各級主管機關對學生輔導資商中心之督導等事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商直轄市縣主管機關定之。文件上各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":10369.485,"end":10371.686,"text":"提醒各位委員,如果大家不想繼續纏鬥下去,多一個頓號上。"},{"start":10385.097,"end":10391.499,"text":"他還是沒有回答我剛那個立法說明關於專業輔導人員的意思定義是什麼我說明一下這裡有講他的專業輔導人員專長的也是輔導老師、專業輔導人員及承認輔導主任我剛就說這樣有問題嗎大家也有疑慮的是承認輔導主任其實我說實話輔導教師也有可能我想昭偉你一定非常清楚在現場擔任輔導教師的不見得有相關的"},{"start":10413.422,"end":10422.224,"text":"對嘛 連部長都頂頭 你看先說 應該兩者各具有那這個立法說明可以調整嘛可 我覺得那個定義要更清楚耶好嗎 不然我們又把專業這一part又忽略了我的建議是這樣的啦跟署長商量一下可不可以把承認輔導主任這幾個字拿掉就是此具"},{"start":10439.096,"end":10440.276,"text":"具輔導專業專長者系職本法第3條是輔導教師和專業輔導人員括號後面加上資格者"},{"start":10461.376,"end":10476.083,"text":"對 那個 我的版本這邊是主張把承認輔導主任刪掉啦 因為工作很多輔導主任就沒有專業背景啦你現在如果這條拉進來又會回到那個不是專業再領導專業然後資格者直接接違憲 中間那段文字都刪掉 對這樣應該就可以被接受 因為高中的主任輔導教師一定具備輔導老師資格"},{"start":10485.066,"end":10486.969,"text":"這應該放在條文當中嗎?還是在做立法說明上?這要放在條文當中嗎?所以把承認輔導書拿掉啦?"},{"start":10507.494,"end":10526.662,"text":"懲任輔導人員也會有問題因為社工師在之前的版本也是專業輔導人員在之前的學輔資中心的規格裡面社工師也算是專業輔導人員所以除非你們跟社工那邊也討論過了他們也可以擔任相關的主管"},{"start":10527.998,"end":10545.277,"text":"因為這一個法是講的是由行政組由主管機關遴選去輔導專業專長者擔任嘛所以它具有遴選的過程而且我已經在執法講了要把遴選的方式定在裡面"},{"start":10547.268,"end":10566.891,"text":"所以他一定是一從他的這個能力專業以及行政的溝通協調還有整體配合政策思維的那個部分會納入綜合考慮那那個詳細的如何遴選需要注意哪些我想將來在執法可以去律定我們已經把遴選兩個字放進執法授權的依據了"},{"start":10585.896,"end":10586.176,"text":"所以,現在,"},{"start":10591.381,"end":10613.533,"text":"來 那個先佩玉委員我看這個教育部整理的這個第10跟第11項跟我們的委員提案差應該是最大的這至少范雲委員、柯之恩委員、林瑾委員、郭國文委員抱歉范雲委員版本沒有的第10、11都有提到是必須要學生輔導諮商中心應設置專任"},{"start":10614.946,"end":10638.277,"text":"以及必須聘用但是專任及聘用都沒有在教育部的這個文字當中所以如果依你現在這個寫法會不會這些人員輔導人員有可能都是用商界的會不會也有這種狀況所以就是說你這個專任跟聘用的文字這個我們好幾個委員的版本裡面都有嘛"},{"start":10639.864,"end":10662.629,"text":"來,好,這一步等下等下回應齁,外媒林委員我這裡補充一下下大家可以去多面向去討論啦,就是說這個輔導老師還有專業輔導人員以及承認輔導主任那我剛剛看范雲委員好像是對承認輔導主任這件事情他的考量的點當然我覺得也是應該去想的,就是說因為以前有一些輔導主任現在沒有人願意當行政嘛,那所以呢就是"},{"start":10664.649,"end":10665.27,"text":"來,下一步因為在"},{"start":10694.115,"end":10708.823,"text":"這個執法的標題當中我們也有把資格的文字放進去所以如果要把承認輔導主任留著將來對於他需要累積多少年的輔導主任的實務經驗才能夠來遴選擔任這個主任可能可以在執法裡頭來定"},{"start":10711.566,"end":10716.91,"text":"國中小的輔導主任只需具備熱誠和知能,知能的標準只有三小時的課,當然有些人像外美林委員講的累積了多年的經驗,但不能排除有些其實只有上過三小時的課,現在我們就要專業化,所以我覺得這個部分還是刪掉。"},{"start":10742.787,"end":10757.8,"text":"這部分可以給我們實證的資料現狀到底是怎麼樣我的理解是高中就是必須要有比較高的專業的那個能力可是國中小的話條件其實就是只要熱誠加知能知能是三小時的課程而已"},{"start":10758.3,"end":10784.195,"text":"好 我說一下 這條跟第14條有關係 對第14條在輔導法103年訂的時候 14條就是這樣規定的你要擔任輔導主任之前要有40個小時的期間培訓還要每年要20個小時的在職進修所以他對擔任輔導是有很 還蠻強的而且103到現在已經實施超過10年了我相信具備有輔導主任 應該有相當程度的實務專業的能力啦"},{"start":10786.377,"end":10813.323,"text":"怎麼樣 大家要堅持嗎我覺得我再補充一下啦我還是說范雲委員剛剛考慮的那個點是我們必須考慮的但是呢實務的教育現場我更同意司長剛剛所說的因為我們先前其實是有一些規範可能不是我們想像說講得比較難聽什麼阿貓阿狗都可以來當輔導主任然後沒有人要做就來了我覺得不是這樣子的就是或許他們過去沒有專業的背景這樣但是因為我們其實在之前就已經有做了一些這個規範了不是說"},{"start":10814.983,"end":10839.833,"text":"今天他來做一個學期完以後我們都認為他有這樣的專長 不是的所以我覺得如果我們把這個拿掉的話恐怕會不會有一些非常資深而且長年在這個領域裡面累積了很多經驗跟專業甚至於很多可以做不同的輔導間接的關係上面他累積了很多的經驗那我們把它排除掉我會覺得有點可惜啦"},{"start":10841.977,"end":10853.223,"text":"主席不好意思主席人很好 謝謝主席我一點人都不好 我不是善人那個 你還是沒有回答我那個督導工作那一題你說要回到第七條討論嘛 對不對 司長"},{"start":10856.356,"end":10868.45,"text":"對 那個看起來很可怕耶所以我要再次強調那至於剛剛范雲委員講這件事情喔因為剛剛范雲委員就一直在跟他講的時候我也說我就是那個拿掉那件事情的意義我當然認同那個萬美玲委員剛剛說在實務現場可能有這個狀態但是我們這裡我堅持要把它拿掉的是"},{"start":10873.215,"end":10898.178,"text":"除非你們現在教育部手上有更多盤點資訊告訴我們現在所謂曾經擔任過輔導主任那他們在提供相關的專業服務這件事情上真的可以說服其他專業的人員我想教委應該理解你所教出來這些專業心理諮商師們那如果這個事情論述是成立的我就沒有意見但如果只是您剛剛所說的那些我們覺得還是有些懷疑跟擔心啦謝謝"},{"start":10903.491,"end":10926.531,"text":"先說一般縣市的輔導老師他會很在意說你輔資中心的專業輔導人員憑什麼來督導我他會覺得我先把它說明完但是事實上這裡頭並不是由專業輔導人來擔任督導這個角色不是應該是由輔資中心延聘具有輔導專業的學者專家擔任輔導老師的是"},{"start":10934.82,"end":10960.541,"text":"文字上沒有你要表達的這樣的想法啦 對不對所以你要把文字上面看你們怎麼樣做一個修正啦 趕快對 而且因為學校裡頭的督導這件事情確實如同你說的嘛 他們其實也不想被學輔資中心這樣 那學輔資中心的專業人員也覺得我的督導你的資格 大家在那邊吵來吵去實在是不好看 所以既然文字是表達不出 到時候縣市政府就拿說你要幫我做督導喔 你要去幫我看學校喔"},{"start":10961.585,"end":10967.227,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":10989.673,"end":11018.12,"text":"各位同意是嗎?所以這裡頭我們才會寫是由輔助中心得協助主管機關來規劃就記住這是規劃不是來辦理辦理就會由主管機關你們把原來的那個什麼辦理把它拿掉了嘛我這樣看你們比照你們前後的版本是辦理已經拿掉了所以他只是而且他的得協助主管機關我先說這裡沒有寫主管機關還是會叫輔助中心做的啦"},{"start":11019.632,"end":11023.081,"text":"對啦 因為主管機關的教育行政人員具有輔導專業比例滿低"},{"start":11029.934,"end":11056.051,"text":"等一下等一下 那主席我可以再發言嗎 可以我們今天就是要把第四條搞定好不好 別人都不准下課好 謝主席那個如果是這樣按照司長你說的某個程度我可以接受可是說實話他們雖然知道要這樣被督導然後學輔資中心也確實他們有這樣的資格但是在業務分工上如果你先把他拿掉我們回到學校的輔導教師要被專業督導這件事情我們也許 因為今天很多委員"},{"start":11056.391,"end":11059.313,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":11081.721,"end":11085.364,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具委員林宜瑾等19人擬具委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":11124.835,"end":11126.036,"text":"並得協助主管機關規劃輔導教室職專業 。"},{"start":11140.542,"end":11142.024,"text":"專業職增能及研習工作"},{"start":11163.929,"end":11166.871,"text":"有關於學生資商輔導中心之組織建制規劃重中之重"},{"start":11184.136,"end":11197.923,"text":"如果你要把它變成正式化就是要組織歸成現在沒有歸成兩個字組織它就更具有彈性化那更有彈性化的話我個人認為說是不是要考量一下本席所提出的附帶決議起碼"},{"start":11200.126,"end":11213.491,"text":"欸那個教育部還是一句話嘛什麼都沒有再把他送出院會來我還是沒有得到任何的一個成效嘛再討論再討論反正他也不會給你他很難目前為止給你正式化嘛剛剛大家都已經說了欸我在幫你們行政單位講話欸我們在野黨幫你們行政單位講話欸怎麼會是這樣子"},{"start":11219.608,"end":11230.415,"text":"所以你們到底要不要考慮一下如果說你們不正式化已經自愛難行的狀況之下這些心思的極等有沒有辦法納入附帶決議裡面有沒有辦法納入來做考量 有沒有辦法"},{"start":11235.179,"end":11260.453,"text":"剛剛吳佩儀委員有提一個很好的建議因為目前布版所預擬的這個沒有像有提到資安中心正式化與否等等的字眼剛剛吳佩儀委員提到在遴選後面加一個專任聘用專任聘用四個字剛剛跟任總有一點討論覺得這樣子對於這件事的促成應該更讓大家有信心"},{"start":11264.322,"end":11285.004,"text":"因為常設裡面還是要看那個人嘛擔心的還是那個人組織常設這個沒有問題但是人還是關心他能不能夠繼續能夠在這邊幫忙好好發揮所以讓他的禁用還有他的資格加上了這個專任聘用的保障有兩個 包安昭偉也有提到"},{"start":11286.26,"end":11313.061,"text":"第二點剛剛昭偉提到說心思問題部長其實從詢答的時候就非常的贊成今天幾位委員所有不管所有委員都有提到心思還是要處理剛剛昭偉提到的那個附帶決議看看大家圍我們專心看一下圍條一下心思是不是看目前看到的是昭偉的這一份不知道有沒有其他份否則大家專心看一下那個一的部分"},{"start":11314.062,"end":11329.863,"text":"提的是薪資二的部分能不能專心大家也幫忙一下政照要不要單獨處理這樣子我們比較專任聘用也解決了永續的問題跟這些工作者這麼用心幫忙給他保障"},{"start":11331.229,"end":11353.598,"text":"也解決了待會我們看這兩點是不是真的大家有共識包含衛福部會被牽動到跟人總能不能夠一起來幫忙大概可能可以進到這樣的比較新的討論所以你的意思就是說在我們這個部分大家看到第一款的部分請第四行請教育部衛生福利部還有什麼你要加入哪些單位"},{"start":11354.579,"end":11356.583,"text":"會同行政院人事總處、主計總處等相關單位"},{"start":11364.178,"end":11389.193,"text":"等相關機關,好,就是說你在這個人員這個單位部分裡面就是教育部、衛生福利部還有人總還有組計總處,然後呢來做這個薪資上面調整,大家覺得怎麼樣?欸,昭緯,剛剛我們前三條的附帶決議都沒討論沒關係,我們先一個個來嘛,我們先一個個,因為這個東西可以來做一個很...一般我們不是都條文討論完才處理附帶決議嗎?因為牽動的啊"},{"start":11391.374,"end":11396.977,"text":"因為你是組織歸成,我們所提的都是組織歸成你這邊把組織歸成弄掉,只剩下一個組織所以如果說只是組織就沒辦法嘗試可是我們還沒有同意教育部現在就可以確定把相關的組織我現在只是從務實面來,你如果要卡在教育部裡面沒有這部分你就什麼都沒有,我講老實話為什麼會什麼都沒有?"},{"start":11413.985,"end":11417.068,"text":"當然什麼都沒有啊你現在就是讓他繼續討論粗幼會繼續討論啊你還是你的組織上面你並沒有還是沒有辦法把他法制化然後你如果就沒有辦法法制化實務上你們不可能剛剛講那麼多花了那麼多時間沒有辦法法制化那我們乾脆就在薪資上面來給大家做一個"},{"start":11431.062,"end":11451.409,"text":"因為我們每個人背後都有一些專業團體、教育團體跟各方的那到底正式化跟剛剛講的什麼常設化的差異或者是各自的部分我是覺得都還有空間要討論我們也必須要詢問就是說我們相關的一些不管是顧問各方面所以我自己是覺得不要這麼快就決定會比較好一點"},{"start":11453.61,"end":11470.284,"text":"那因為我們協商的部分還可以再來討論嗎沒有沒有沒有協商的部分裡面你討論的跟今天討論不會比今天更精緻來過去四年的話協商有一半的東西是爭取到的啊不是啊你看目前教育部已經告訴你說還要會統人總還有組計都已經可以來做這樣的一個討論教育部已經對於這樣的部分都已經可以了關於那個薪資各方面要怎麼寫那其實我們也都還需要再花時間想一想啦我自己是覺得這樣子會覺得比較複雜來陳佩玉委員"},{"start":11482.974,"end":11503.995,"text":"謝謝主席請問署長你剛剛說的專任聘用那我的好奇是專任聘用就跟正式聘用一樣會有各式各樣的福利嗎我覺得我當然可以同意召委剛剛所說的如果我們沒有辦法推到那個更好所謂那個正式化那先用錢這件事情來想那我就實際上問錢"},{"start":11505.877,"end":11515.69,"text":"會有福利,各式各樣的福利是等同的嗎?還有退休金嗎?這些我覺得可不可以有更仔細的說明,如果沒有我可能就會echo范雲委員說,是不是還要再更多討論跟保留,謝謝來"},{"start":11523.872,"end":11541.164,"text":"這有一些剛剛我們是順著委員的建議首先是召委建議加聘用兩次後來是吳佩玉委員也發現說那個專任的字眼讓他在永續上或是人員的服務上比較安心穩定所以我們"},{"start":11541.904,"end":11569.168,"text":"剛才有跟相關單位協調專任聘用這樣一個比較沒有出現過但是在本法條可不可以用的字眼剛才確認是初步可以初步是可以然後也按剛才的一些幾個目的那至於他的正式化變成公務員有退伏那這樣的人員常設人員等等的有沒有退伏的機制這恐怕是不是那個任總這邊可以說明一下"},{"start":11580.09,"end":11597.997,"text":"我報告一下喔,約聘僱人員目前我們的考試院的規定喔,就是他們就是跟一樣勞工會提撥那個基金,他們在做處理。那那個保險啊、健保什麼的,全部都會有。但他不會像我們常任公務員室內那樣的退休制度。"},{"start":11598.337,"end":11602.579,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":11618.186,"end":11642.36,"text":"我們更務實的說好不好因為現在大家都在看直播我相信今天有非常多專業的心理諮詢師在線上看直播要不要拜託您說的更清楚我的理解喔拼用就是拼用跟專任不專任應該沒有關係但是因為我們委員擔心說這個拼用在這個任務編組會被他調來調去啦弄到別的地方去所以寫專任拼用意思說這個人就是要在這個地方"},{"start":11643.592,"end":11648.113,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":11674.262,"end":11698.313,"text":"正式化就是一個機關的概念它裡面的人就是要跟像藤書長我這種人要有公務人員資格那裡面的每一個職稱、每一個官等、職等都受到考試院的規範你不可能整個正義官裡面全部都是聘用人員那任務編組的好處是說你就可以全部都是這種你們要希望的那些專業人員"},{"start":11700.254,"end":11702.838,"text":"陳佩玉委員主席這樣好不好因為這樣聽起來他們一直在小心謹慎的提醒我們說變成正式化之後會有公務機關人員驗用的問題門變得更小假設你們的說法真的是真的"},{"start":11716.238,"end":11742.035,"text":"可是剛剛關於專任聘用這些聽起來的福利又不如我們想像包含退休金這件事情是沒有它其實會回到所謂勞保的退休那個部分嘛那說實話勞保提撥的部分說實話這個說法我也不真的確定是現場第一線在為我們接觸辛苦孩子們這些辛苦的心理諮商是可以接受的那昭緯是不是我們可以這樣有一個可能性因為看起來昭緯你很不想保留嘛可是我們都覺得聽起來很有問題需要保留"},{"start":11744.396,"end":11757.172,"text":"還是我們可不可以待會中午休息的時候請你們也想辦法跟召委協調出你們真的覺得是可能的版本我們再來討論嘛因為如果按照這個寫法甚至署長剛剛多丟出來一個叫專任聘用我覺得都還是有很多爭議耶好 來"},{"start":11761.209,"end":11763.15,"text":"吳佩儀委員還有羅廷維委員吳佩儀委員還有羅廷維委員吳佩儀委員還有羅廷維委員吳佩儀委員吳佩儀委員吳佩儀委員吳佩儀委員吳佩儀委員吳佩儀委員吳佩儀委員吳佩儀委員吳佩儀委員"},{"start":11788.644,"end":11803.598,"text":"用新點我現在比較沒有具體能不能教一步來試算一下這個數字到底薪資具體來說是多少那我支持提高但是這個條的幅度是不是足夠可能還是你們要換算成薪資然後幾種的年資的情況讓我們有一個參考"},{"start":11805.88,"end":11826.32,"text":"教育部其實馬上就可以回應這個問題了嘛,因為那個心思馬上比對出來就可以看出來,教育部馬上就回應好不好?人事處馬上馬上處理,好不好?然後呢,你們剛剛也,教育部也說是支持提高待遇嘛,你們自己有沒有負案呢?不會說你們支持提高待遇結果你們都沒有版本啦,這是我覺得最不能接受的地方。好,還有沒有?"},{"start":11830.055,"end":11830.415,"text":"羅廷偉委員 貴如君委員"},{"start":11861.513,"end":11878.744,"text":"像剛剛培育委員講的齁所以我覺得有很大的爭議這個時間點如果討論不出來的話我覺得更應該休息一下讓大家好好去釐清再來就後面要不然就是討論出不出結果嘛好沒問題來充分討論這是教育委員會的來那個格瑞委員之外吳春城委員"},{"start":11879.404,"end":11903.232,"text":"是因為這一條的這個附帶決議我們也有提出所以我是支持趙偉在這邊是可以來我們就做附帶決議的部分也希望可以就把討論通過那至於我想這一次我們這個相關的法規我們的教育部提出的時間真的比較晚那"},{"start":11903.692,"end":11913.514,"text":"到現在又要再有更多的討論我們其實已經給了非常多的時間我們也是支持我們就希望能夠再利用時間啦我們就希望能夠就把它做個決定謝謝"},{"start":11915.115,"end":11926.598,"text":"吳俊成委員現在自殺率逐年在提升我現在看到的數據98年有4000多位24歲以下的自殺4166到了110年有15640"},{"start":11936.561,"end":11959.83,"text":"所以這個比例實在是太驚人了所以青少年學生的這種輔導是迫在眉睫但是看起來教育部我覺得今天剛才討論了半天其實委員部份黨派幾乎都沒有都一定都很支持沒有什麼爭議反而是教育部現在好像很多事情都沒有整合好啦所以對於這個薪資啦對於這個教育部要"},{"start":11968.782,"end":11971.511,"text":"我覺得我們現在是不是先休息五分鐘我們大家委員先來討論一下"},{"start":11988.432,"end":11994.677,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。 《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11996.578,"end":12022.796,"text":"五分鐘現在討論一下,我們現在是要怎麼樣?這盤盤長得怎麼樣?我想從20班設一個輔導老師,變成20班就設一個。我想。我想20班設一個,那好啊。反正會多300。但是他也不知道,他也沒說啊。他也不知道,他也沒說啊。但是他也不知道,他也沒說啊。但是他也不知道,他也沒說啊。但是他也不知道,他也沒說啊。但是他也不知道,他也沒說啊。但是他也不知道,他也沒說啊。但是他也不知道,他也沒說啊。但是他也不知道,他也沒說啊。但是他也不知道,他也沒說啊。但是他也不知道,他也沒說啊。但是他也不知道,他也沒說啊。但是他也不知道,他也沒說啊。但是他也不知道,他也沒說啊。但是他也不知道,他也沒說啊。"},{"start":12023.716,"end":12029.841,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":12047.373,"end":12049.536,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":12065.473,"end":12069.017,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":12080.829,"end":12082.211,"text":"《國安法案》《國安法案》《國安法案》"},{"start":12102.593,"end":12115.94,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":12121.674,"end":12130.221,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":12159.758,"end":12169.721,"text":"其實我告訴你最主要是提案版本本來就是一個權宜之計因為等不到你的願版我們才用提案的版本那你願版是剛剛什麼時候拿到的"},{"start":12178.735,"end":12179.516,"text":"蘇貝爾等19人擬具蘇貝爾等19人擬具"},{"start":12194.935,"end":12211.953,"text":"不是啦 那個以前都也是會有一段時間不是這樣因為部長520才上任他已經很努力那但是每次行政院有的時候就會拖掉也不是只有針對這樣上禮拜四就已經要排今天的審查嘛那是因為上禮拜三的時候我們在質詢的時候部長就說禮拜四"},{"start":12213.034,"end":12230.765,"text":"部長他是第一次當部長,他認為理想是這樣,可是上禮拜四你現在就變成說一定要行政院會配合我們的時辰?不是,最理想的狀況"},{"start":12232.006,"end":12256.092,"text":"以前都會等院版出來,我們招委在台。 不是等不到啊!就是等不到啊!還是上禮拜抓出來的正版海審啊!520部長才剛上院啊!部長上院到現在多久?不是啦,我覺得沒有沒有沒有,我個人覺得啦,基本上藍綠對於這部法,我們其實大家都有一些的共識啦。現在純粹就是因為"},{"start":12256.952,"end":12282.488,"text":"我們拿這個提案版本真的是權宜之計我也知道應該要等院版但是我們大家都知道我們給院行政院時間了可是他到現在剛剛好像才你還要經過禮拜五的會議但是你還要經過你今天是行政院你還要經過禮拜五的會議嗎還是不用他已經院會後記者會已經先宣布了所以說我們可以用他的一個版本所以應該"},{"start":12283.729,"end":12287.951,"text":"懸會已經決議了。懸會已經決議,後續行政院完成內部簽合就會函送立法院,送大會一讀。"},{"start":12308.08,"end":12321.988,"text":"趙偉"},{"start":12324.046,"end":12348.246,"text":"張維 我說實在大家都很重視學生輔導法我覺得這是藍綠大家都有大家都希望修法那大家也很多人都在看這個直播可是我覺得我們不能因為現在行政院剛通過院會因為每個禮拜四都行政院院會嘛行政院剛通過院會結果我們還沒有送來到立法院你也要正式送來到立法院禮拜二我們才排程序委員會你才有辦法啊"},{"start":12349.326,"end":12350.347,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":12379.747,"end":12389.722,"text":"那我覺得真的就是我們應該要等願板出來大家才能討論是吧已經有一個願板了然後我們現在放著然後不討論願板這樣也很奇怪啊"},{"start":12393.664,"end":12413.03,"text":"懸板要一讀可是我還是希望我能夠在這個會期當中起碼我們把他送出委員會這非常重要我起碼把他送出委員會這是非常重要我想這是說藍綠委員都都需要說出來了嗎那你現在該怎麼解決這個問題等一下我在行政程序上面我要我要我要程序怎麼處理"},{"start":12414.19,"end":12419.415,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":12437.513,"end":12453.065,"text":"誰要說明一下下禮拜移警委員見你一天當早委沒有下禮拜是我下禮拜是你下禮拜就是我啊一、三、四都是我啊那這樣子我們就禮拜四再排啊對啊禮拜幾下禮拜四再排啊"},{"start":12454.626,"end":12457.788,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":12487.863,"end":12500.305,"text":"原本既然是這樣的處理的話我就照我這個東西處理我等你那麼久原本只能并案協商現在在開會每個人講的話都是這個才會瘦啦"},{"start":12510.859,"end":12513.2,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":12539.66,"end":12543.765,"text":"張維我們都知道大家都想要通知"},{"start":12554.699,"end":12576.571,"text":"我知道我說大家都大家都很想要通過但現在如果說沒有院板進來的話你真的很難溝通啦這樣就已經講好啦兩位召委協調一下我們宣行一下休息喔麥克風都關掉了麥克風都關掉了"},{"start":12870.646,"end":12896.262,"text":"好 我們現在開會所以照目前所有的委員這樣的一個版本來去看的話我還是這一次的譴責行政院因為今天的這個版本當中我們是等了非常久本席也是非常的配合但是呢 左等右等剛剛我們才接獲行政院才已經通過決議在今天"},{"start":12897.483,"end":12898.423,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":12925.009,"end":12927.911,"text":"行政院版本已經確定了 已經剛訂了對不對剛剛已經確定了吧 部長 不好意思 你講幾聲你的版本 唐章行政院的版本是不是已經通過了部長你要跟我們說一下 他要看一下 部長要看一下"},{"start":12958.516,"end":12969.483,"text":"其實大家一直想說不要太匆忙可是我說實在這個法你看第10屆的委員每個人都這麼關切他們每個人也都已經知道這個法很重要那你們剛剛為什麼不聲聲吹吹到現在每個人告訴我說這個時間如果不是我們這種吹法我告訴你還是天荒地老我告訴你"},{"start":12980.788,"end":12987.671,"text":"如果不是這種吹法,不是如果我們先行的話,到時候慢慢等,還是等到這個層面。這個部分是可以嗎?沒有,現在正在做結論。等一下,我們先讓部長。"},{"start":13002.722,"end":13009.804,"text":"最重要是我們要回去比對因為我現在沒有辦法做這樣的我沒有辦法現在做任何一個比對所以需要時間我來做比對所以怎麼樣張廖委員你現在是拿到最新的版本次長不好意思我認識他說他是委員以我們兩個的交情我們可以互相以委員並稱好不好怎麼樣現在是"},{"start":13031.297,"end":13041.948,"text":"所以這是剛剛出來的連結但是我們需要時間再來去看做這樣的一個處理所以如果大家覺得是這樣子的話那我們是不是"},{"start":13043.527,"end":13050.073,"text":"允許我們大家有時間然後禮拜一的方法因為禮拜一我們還是沒有辦法送到程序面這原本沒有辦法但是禮拜 對不起對我個人來說禮拜一我還是根據我把它雖然是程序上面我覺得文字對我來說最重要嘛題會的版本就是對不起我們剛剛我還是強調剛剛已經討論到第四條不要再從前面開始了這太浪費我們的時間了 可以嗎"},{"start":13068.371,"end":13084.041,"text":"我們不要嘛 對不對因為你可以比對一下行政院的版本在我們剛剛所提到這個部分當中我呼應司長你可以把我們剛剛起碼到第4條的前面的10款你可以把它納入院版"},{"start":13086.047,"end":13101.585,"text":"其實就這樣處理不管怎麼樣啦不管你用什麼方法前面我們講了十款文字上就不要做任何的變動了然後今天呢我們所做的部分裡面就是在正式化剛剛范雲委員還有剛剛吳佩奕委員還有剛剛葛如君委員大家都認為"},{"start":13102.586,"end":13104.907,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":13129.293,"end":13149.003,"text":"來做這樣的一個審查然後用你們我們現在也只能認為是提會的版本我還是只能用這個名稱我還是不能用行政院版本還是用提會的版本但事實上的版本是用你的剛剛出爐的行政院版本這樣可以嗎我補充一下是不是第一條到第四條第二項對已經討論過就不要再回頭了當然第二個我們禮拜一續審的時候是不是仍然以現在的提會版本"},{"start":13159.657,"end":13180.088,"text":"並同行政院通過決議的條文一起看因為行政院版本只有4、5、5之1、6然後10、11、12、14其他條文是沒有的我們的委員提案是很多的所以建議還是用提位版來討論"},{"start":13183.103,"end":13207.321,"text":"但是行政院版本就是我們一起併案來一起看嘛,這樣可以增加我們在協商裡面更大的一個共識度嘛。這樣其實也比較合理啊。不過我還是要再一次,譴責,行政院版本到今天早上才會出來。但是如果說你可以用這樣的處理的話,今天早上的討論表示還有它的意義存在。好不好?這樣可以嗎?學長委員這樣可以嗎?再重複一下。"},{"start":13213.905,"end":13238.887,"text":"我的結論就是第一嚴正譴責行政院為什麼到現在才送出院版那既然院版來的部分的話嗎我們現在就是在禮拜一的時候我們就會是目前我們剛剛所提到從第一條到第四條的第二項當中我們已經討論的文字各方面我們都不用再做討論就是完全遵照我們剛剛的部分來做處理"},{"start":13240.248,"end":13253.398,"text":"接下來我們就有行政院的版本完之後就是來參看我們還是以提案版本為基礎點行政院版本來做一個參看然後呢我們就是來做這樣的一個繼續的一個討論這樣夠明確嗎好如果有需要協商的時候"},{"start":13263.598,"end":13263.758,"text":"委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":13281.598,"end":13288.023,"text":"蘇發布有一個部分專業人才的聘用的方法。蘇發布有一個部分專業人才的聘用的方法。蘇發布有一個部分專業人才的聘用的方法。蘇發布有一個部分專業人才的聘用的方法。"},{"start":13308.098,"end":13327.365,"text":"工作就會人人的流失會比較不穩定那我想呢是不是可以參照這個抒發部他們有一個專用人員的聘用的一個方法把這個部分納進去來做一個考量然後針對第4條的部分是好謝謝那第4條的部分我回應一下那個郭委員其實有些時候因為剛剛整個討論當中哦我們給他幾個不同的option"},{"start":13330.706,"end":13331.246,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":13349.051,"end":13375.083,"text":"委員范雲等19人擬具本席都已經決定可以好好來休息一下你們要繼續討論很快很快補充一下因為剛剛其實大家在討論有關於那個薪資的部分就是專任我們不能用那個正式化嘛那這個回去評估的話是不是下一次也可以給我們一個很清楚的說明因為我們才能知道他實質這些正式的老師們他可以等下得到什麼樣子的照顧好不好下次的時候一起提出來"},{"start":13375.983,"end":13399.527,"text":"對 報告主席 那我就發言齁 那我也echo齁 剛剛雅琳委員所提的那今天既然是這樣 那真的有很多地方要回去再麻煩再確認一下我剛剛其實也有提一個問題 行政人員的編列到底他的預算是什麼 人員數是多少 你們其實一直沒有回答我想說大家都 都還有更重要的議題 我就就那個齁但是今天既然這樣 我想有一些相關的準備工作再麻煩部會協助 謝謝"},{"start":13406.394,"end":13430.828,"text":"林宜瑾委員剛張六次早說八月審我回答他一句誰跟你八月審好啦我跟各位報告一下啦那我剛詢問的狀況至少民進黨團在7月15號是沒有主張要變更議程就是還是維持原委員會那16號才是院會那只要國民黨團沒有要變更議程基本上15號禮拜一的議程還是委員會"},{"start":13431.929,"end":13460.518,"text":"那如果是這樣子的話當然是另一類的思考大家可以討論就是說如果要併院版一起審會比較 不會比較OK的話那可能就是變成我們下個禮拜五會一讀嘛復違那變成下個禮拜一就是15號來併審那我想這樣的進度應該一天起來是一定夠因為你如果要去審你也打算說下禮拜一就要審完那也是一天嘛齁那所以看"},{"start":13461.598,"end":13482.275,"text":"張維怎麼樣判斷是要跟院板的併審那或許併審如果大家沒有問題也就不用協商了那如果說你要跟就是我們要單獨先審你要跟院板併審那當然張維剛剛是有提到說那審完出去之後可能還是要跟那個院板做協商那當然就是判斷的問題看張維怎麼樣我覺得切數太難測因為"},{"start":13487.199,"end":13507.76,"text":"因為到時候只剩下最後兩天要做一個大表決我們現在目前各委員會有那麼多的部分是不是在15號裡面會借用委員會時間我們目前為止未知如果這樣還不如下禮拜弄完之後直接進貨二讀然後大家來做協商更快所以先不要擾動好不好就不要擾動各位"},{"start":13508.701,"end":13520.311,"text":"本席作成的決議就是我們禮拜一還是續審我們就剛從剛剛我們所建議的我們禮拜一還是續審我們學生輔導法然後我希望各位委員可以把時間空出來因為所有的"},{"start":13521.553,"end":13548.83,"text":"所有的輔導人員都是在非常重視這樣子的一個案子好不好我們下禮拜一續審然後因為7月15號我跟怡瑾特別報告我沒有辦法把握我們這邊到底是如何因為這次牽涉到其他七個委員會搞不好有非常多更重要的民生法案要審目前為止大家不知道所以說我們是不是就是用我們剛剛的決議部長部長你坐就好"},{"start":13551.376,"end":13561.439,"text":"謝謝主席也感謝我們這所有的委員花那麼長的一個時間在關心我們學生輔導法我想也剛才這個院裡邊通過的這個學生輔導法事實上也是等於說"},{"start":13570.501,"end":13590.138,"text":"非常這個用心而直接的從政策來回應我們所有的委員對這個學生輔導怎麼樣接觸每一位學生的一個具體的一個回應最直接的最直接的第10條我們看到的就是說原來由部裡邊規劃的"},{"start":13591.459,"end":13593.14,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":13608.192,"end":13635.586,"text":"直接降到12班高中當然維持現在目前的一個運作所以我想就整個這個學生輔導包括怎麼樣提供學生更大的一個支持包括減少老師的一些許多的這個正常教學上額外的一些壓力跟負擔我想這是委員所最關心的在反映在第10條就直接在政策上立法院的"},{"start":13636.687,"end":13646.939,"text":"這個行政院裡邊的一個版本已經直接來回應我們這個所有來自於社會大眾來自於委員最關心的包括我們專業團體以及所有的這個家長"},{"start":13651.845,"end":13677.992,"text":"等關注學生輔導的議題。我想利用這裏再次補充說明,也再次感謝主席以及所有委員花那麼長的時間。剛才主席也提到說下個禮拜一如果要繼續先來這個省,我想我們也予以尊重然後全力來配合。謝謝。"},{"start":13679.372,"end":13703.511,"text":"不過剛剛那個部長的說法好像那個法已經審完了這個第10條我們所要求的顯然這個行政院版本裡面有充分的來做一個回應這是一件很好的事情那是否就是所以說各位我們現在本席做以下的一個決議對於就是我們下禮拜對於委員會質詢要求提供相關的資料或是為"},{"start":13704.372,"end":13720.485,"text":"及答覆的部分我們請相關單位書與書面來做個答覆學生輔導法已經部分這個審查完略然後未及審查的部分我們定於下禮拜一繼續來做一個審查然後呢報告委員會我們今天議程暫時處理到這邊為止現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":13737.162,"end":13737.963,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":13762.299,"end":13770.686,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":13786.576,"end":13801.845,"text":"現在看到院板就比較知道尺度了尺度嘛現在有院板的話會比較知道怎麼補鞋怎麼那個至少可以實際穿到院板你們院板可以進一步二光"},{"start":13810.069,"end":13815.273,"text":"至少你可以讓大家覺得說,大家更沒有錢能夠賺好嗎?到這裡,已經不只"},{"start":13838.226,"end":13843.589,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}