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略。未及審查部分另定於113年7月8日繼續審查。審查結果如下。一、第二條趙委員陳培淤等18人提案通過。二、第一條第三條修正通過。修理完畢。"},{"start":1874.346,"end":1900.316,"text":"好,請問各位委員,上一次的會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏之處?好,沒有,我們議事錄就確定。那我們今天的議程是繼續審查學生輔導法相關的修正草案共28案。那我們這個本日的議程呢,就曾烈委員羅廷威等19人擬具學生輔導法部分條文修正草案,還有委員廖偉祥等16人擬具學生輔導法部分條文修正草案等兩案,我們併案來做處理。"},{"start":1902.597,"end":1917.826,"text":"那我們今天來到我們現場的是有我們教育部長我們的鄭義耀鎮部長謝謝還有我們的林騰角林常務次長謝謝還有我們在場委員有范雲委員還有林一錦委員"},{"start":1919.497,"end":1934.711,"text":"好,其他委員都在陸續錄上當中。好,然後委員如果有臨時提案的話,我們就請於上午10點30分前提出。處理提案的時候,若提案委員及臨時委員均不在場,我們原力不予處理。那我們現在就繼續審查學生輔導法相關修正草案,進行討論跟協商。討論時如有新增修正動議,請議事人員一併宣讀。"},{"start":2003.544,"end":2028.656,"text":"好,謝謝各位,我們現在就開始審法案。好,那我就……"},{"start":2039.917,"end":2061.477,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 中 、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中 、繼續審查委員"},{"start":2063.772,"end":2064.394,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":2077.976,"end":2102.373,"text":"對,以後要這種聲音才可以我徵求各位委員的意見因為我們第四條上個禮拜討論非常多而且它牽涉到我們現在已經把第一項、第二項已經討論完畢特別是第二項十款有關於學資中心裡面的任務我們把它非常明確的確定我們上次會已經確定我們不要再繼續討論但是第三項、第四項因為牽涉到"},{"start":2105.015,"end":2107.137,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":2122.007,"end":2122.487,"text":"五、繼續審查委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":2149.897,"end":2169.512,"text":"今天我們除了有提案的版本之外我們旁邊一個欄位就特別放上院版各位你可以看得出來如果之前第10屆有在教育文化委員會的委員應該都可以看得出來不是我們現在提案版本第10屆委員我們從教育部送去給行政院的版本"},{"start":2170.673,"end":2194.103,"text":"長得一模一樣只有修正第十條本席還是要特別強調一年四個月只有第十條其他都是一致我不曉得為什麼反而要躺了一年四個月所以我們今天呢就從提案版本還有配合行政院的院版我們共同來做討論關於第五條來我們請提案的委員謝謝我們先從羅廷墨委員、外美林委員、范雲委員謝謝"},{"start":2195.558,"end":2223.4,"text":"再次感謝召委,我想我還是再次強調第五條第二項第一款的建議學生輔導諮詢會相關的專業人員應該包含職能治療師我想學生輔導的諮詢相關的從業人員應該加這個職能治療師我覺得是非常的重要啦因為這個我們學輔法第六條第二項第三款原條文已經充分強調專業的分工請教育部考量得以正面表列"},{"start":2224.522,"end":2244.431,"text":"方式來保留各專業職類的一個敘述以延續涵蓋學生多元需求的一個精神必力保障這個我們增進學生健康輔導的一個權益精神科職能治療師在心理衛生領域扮演著極其重要的一個角色在國內中東職能的治療師"},{"start":2245.311,"end":2259.097,"text":"等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林"},{"start":2272.262,"end":2289.792,"text":"因為他的任務包括精神治療的一個障礙以及幫助他們恢復功能提高生活品質具體任務涵蓋的功能評估以及制定治療的一個計畫透過詳細的一個評估了解個案的功能缺陷我們興趣目標以及制定個別化的一個治療計畫"},{"start":2291.893,"end":2306.251,"text":"運用多種的臨床推理以及參考的一個架構包括活動的任務安排、人際互動、獨立生活訓練、社交訓練以及幫助個案心理障礙的一個克服增加社區活動的一個機會"},{"start":2307.552,"end":2310.813,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案〉"},{"start":2335.62,"end":2347.286,"text":"德以《精神衛生法》第53條定定相關的專業人員修正。我想希望如果沒辦法列入職人知曉室的話,對不起我必須跟召會講,我就是希望能夠保留去協商,謝謝。"},{"start":2348.729,"end":2354.233,"text":"好 外邁林委員好 謝謝針對這一條我想簡單重點來講我想這個學生輔導諮詢會應該要能夠符合輔導需求的代表性專業性跟多元性所以在本條我的修法是增加專業人員的參與能夠提供專業的輔導意見讓諮詢會議發揮功能另外我們看到第二項第二款特別在我這個地方"},{"start":2374.008,"end":2397.131,"text":"我把原來的條文修成前款以外之學者專家那為什麼?因為我們看第一款的地方其實包含了包括專業人員、臨床心理師、諮商心理師還有社公司精神科醫師那第二款在第二款的部分那我如果把它寫的比較明確一點就前款以外之學者專家那這樣子比較不會有重複"},{"start":2398.092,"end":2413.733,"text":"adequate to the program, so it can increase the diversity of the student council.另外還有一個地方是在增加特教老師代表的部分,這個也很重要。另外還有一個地方是在增加特教老師代表的部分,這個也很重要。因為可以讓實際在特教現場對於比較多狀況的孩子們跟輔導需求能夠match在一起,才不會偏離實際的狀況。"},{"start":2415.855,"end":2425.859,"text":"最後我想增加學生代表這是大家應該都有一個共識的因為增加學生代表可以讓實際接受輔導的學生能夠充分的去反映他的需求讓諮詢會不會是上對下的單項意見那以上接下來我們請范雲委員"},{"start":2435.538,"end":2437.299,"text":"教育部的版本是不是可以說明一下能不能夠保障到有"},{"start":2462.614,"end":2463.895,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":2493.676,"end":2509.161,"text":"謝謝召委我想我是支持把這個相關的專業輔導人員清楚列出的這種寫法畢竟現在學生心理困擾這個樣態很白白腫那原因也相當多元所以我需要依這個學院的狀況而有不同的這個專業人員來介入協助"},{"start":2509.901,"end":2510.061,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":2543.939,"end":2565.558,"text":"第二項第七款,過去學生輔導諮詢會並沒有學生代表,但希望能夠以學生為主體為中心,所以我也建議與納入學生代表,謝謝。好,那我們是不是請最後一部針對可能要增加職能治療師還有包括其他委員的相關意見,好不好?"},{"start":2569.106,"end":2589.296,"text":"我請大家先看我們的這個題彙版的第19頁第19頁為什麼要先從第6條談起第6條在第6條的第二項的第三款談到處意性輔導的時候有提到針對困難的學生"},{"start":2590.276,"end":2613.994,"text":"可能依照他的輔導需求要結合心理治療、社會工作、家庭輔導、智能治療、法律服務、精神醫療等各類資源與專業服務提供整合性的服務。好,智能治療需不需要?需要。在處遇性的輔導的時候碰到困難的個案真的有一部分學生會是需要智能治療,確實是。那大家回到那個第13頁。大家看一下我們現在修正的條文。"},{"start":2621.636,"end":2622.299,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":2630.896,"end":2649.933,"text":"對不起,應該是第十四頁,對,抱歉,頁數說錯了。第十四頁各位可以看,現行條文用的是概括性的敘述,就是只有精神,因包含精神可以單獨列出來。後面他用的就是相關專業人員,都沒有名列心理師、社工師。"},{"start":2652.721,"end":2672.311,"text":"對,那這個部分我們在修正後其實已經把臨床心理師、諮詳心理師跟社工師放在跟精神科同樣一個位階。他們都是相當輔導非常核心重要的專業人員。所以立在第一款。但請記住他包括並沒有以這幾款為限。"},{"start":2676.712,"end":2701.799,"text":"第二項還有相關學者專家所以如果各主管機關覺得有需要是可以邀但先說要不要列列了那就完蛋了我跟你們講第6條的輔導處理師他列了好多啊包括心理治療、社工...抱歉其實已經喊過了那我們會建議不特別列是因為列舉不完啦"},{"start":2703.4,"end":2706.986,"text":"不是啦,我覺得你要從務實層面來看因為羅廷偉委員他是會非常幫職能治療師來做發聲他們希望能夠納入但是這邊有一個很現實的問題在我們一般開會當中你要把它放到諮詢委員會你知道這諮詢委員是每個月要定期召開"},{"start":2719.884,"end":2733.671,"text":"每個月你要定期幾乎就是要定期召開要發展全校的學生輔導工作全校的學生輔導工作那如果增加職能這要是在全校的學生性的輔導工作來說他要被要求來召開的話他可能煩不勝煩這可能你要幫他為務實上面來做一個考量所以如果要幫他發聲的話要把考量在第六條的最後的部分裡面來做調整這是務實的考量這不是說我們要排開在外"},{"start":2746.997,"end":2771.042,"text":"而是他都是要定期討論全校性的輔導一般性的工作如果說他把它放到諮詢委員會他畢竟是這樣的工作他都要進來那這樣對他自己的專業上面的時間跟配給是不是有我個人覺得是在實務的考量可能要知道但是我也了解羅委員他對他們的一個發聲可不可以在第6條的最後裡面把它放進去而不是放在諮詢會議當中這可能比較更務實來去探討啦思考一下好來范議委員"},{"start":2782.554,"end":2808.646,"text":"因為羅委員那個意見比較是在相關的個案的時候那剛剛教育部有講到說就是這裡的第三相關學者專家如果有需要的時候也可以徵詢那是不是能夠在條文說明中講到說有處遇性的時候那需要這個職能治療的部分讓他有個空間在特定的狀況那這樣就雙方的部分都可以保存到因為剛剛林宜瑾委員有說張雅琳委員也有同樣的意見好不好 OK"},{"start":2809.246,"end":2815.608,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":2833.655,"end":2846.527,"text":"我想是不是可以在第5條的第2項的第一款跟第二款的那個立法說明裡頭去含掛引述第6條儲遇性要連結的這些專業服務的東西。聽委委員這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":2855.373,"end":2862.6,"text":"因為這是比較一個務實的做法啦。否則諮詢委員,我跟你說諮詢委員真的是常常開會的。給我幾分鐘好不好。給你幾分鐘,所以呢。好。我們往下。不是啦,但我還是要強調我們今天這個會議我們不要每次都保留,因為委員會"},{"start":2872.569,"end":2880.514,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2901.203,"end":2922.51,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學"},{"start":2931.654,"end":2935.437,"text":"五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":2951.09,"end":2968.703,"text":"五之一目前來說的話有范雲委員陳培宇委員還有葛如君委員萬美玲委員還有羅廷偉委員然後我們在這個所謂的修正對就是這幾位委員來五之一有沒有想有沒有人要發言的范雲委員林宜瑾委員張雅琳委員謝謝"},{"start":2972.692,"end":2983.524,"text":"這個五之一主要是就是學生輔導應該要以兒童兒少的最佳利益為主那我這邊的版本是增加了領有心理師證書之專業輔導人員對問成年學生執行輔導諮商業務時如今該學生同意"},{"start":2990.131,"end":3001.056,"text":"並經由學校召開個案會議評估該學生有此需求,未符合兒少最佳利益的不受心理施法第19條限制,在未經法定代理人同意下執行。"},{"start":3007.199,"end":3018.443,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔"},{"start":3035.729,"end":3059.526,"text":"你們後來決定納入的原因,那我就沒有其他的意見關於這第五條之一。好,謝謝。好,接下來林宜瑾委員。好,謝謝主席。第五條之一,我想依照這個兒童權利公認的意旨,本法有新增加入兒少最佳利益原則以及這個兒少表意權的內容,這個本席深感認同。因為在現在這個時代,我們不應"},{"start":3060.026,"end":3060.446,"text":"張雅琳等"},{"start":3088.022,"end":3088.963,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":3116.934,"end":3117.335,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":3126.34,"end":3148.589,"text":"對,謝謝我想這一條我是非常支持這個強化學生輔導應該是以維護兒少的最佳利益為原則當然還是同時也以學生為中心我們這邊看到教育部建議板有特別提到就是符合兒童及少年的最佳利益還有一些相關的描述在後面反而行政院通過的條文在這一塊"},{"start":3150.53,"end":3150.991,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":3177.168,"end":3190.027,"text":"首先說明擺放的位置在第二頁第一條陳秀寶委員也曾經主張把我們的五之一放在第一條的第二第三項第三第四項說錯了那"},{"start":3192.149,"end":3216.995,"text":"張雅琳為有建議放在第12條之一,不過我想因為我們在院板審查的,因為是院板的條文,院板在審查的時候有很謹慎,包括行政院法規會等等也參與協助,覺得擺放在第5條之一可能比較適合,建議可以採納院板。第二點要說明的是,增加第三項的部分,原本第一項在第二項討論的,它比較屬於概念性的、理念性的。"},{"start":3217.515,"end":3244.41,"text":"那確實在實務操作上如果有更具體的規範對學校遵循是更好的所以我們增加了第三項那第三項部分因為有涉及到衛福部要排除心理師法第19條的限制所以我有事先跟衛福部有溝通衛福部有建議我們就是把德不受心理師法第19條之規定限制這幾個文字拿掉直接由德"},{"start":3245.75,"end":3257.997,"text":"等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":3265.747,"end":3282.464,"text":"謝謝,我們現在提案版本比行政院版本增加第三項我覺得在這個整個的意旨上面是比較明確一點了對,來,等下衛福部說明一下主席各位長官大家好那其實衛福部建議其實是採行政院版本那我們理由如下"},{"start":3283.224,"end":3307.121,"text":"心理師法第19條第二項是一個行政的規定立法的目的主要是強化醫事人員落實告知同意的這樣的義務並沒有一律限制限縮解釋為必須取得法定代言人的同意那實務上其實在為取得法定代言人上我們去了解實務上主要可能是因為未成年的兒少可能因為法定代言人認為有民法上面的這個侵權的這個問題所以可能會導致這個心理師"},{"start":3312.165,"end":3320.792,"text":"在執行相關服務的時候會有法律上訴訟的一些爭議但是為立學生輔導法專業人員執行學生輔導業務的順利我們建議學生輔導法的第五條之一以續名相關人員執行法定職務為目的那這樣子的話可以強化執行法定職務的重要性避免違反其他法律的規定"},{"start":3338.266,"end":3353.303,"text":"所以本部建議相關的這個法條的草案不需要去特別提到不受心理事法第19條的限制避免怪異漏外因為我們19條心理事法第19條第二項也是要回到兒少最佳利益以上"},{"start":3355.54,"end":3379.302,"text":"好范議委員這個衛福部的回應我不大能理解喔心理師法第19條裡面就有寫到說心理師執行業務時應尊重個案當事人之文化背景不得因其性別、族群、社經、地位、職業年齡、語言、宗教或出身地不同而有差別待遇並應取得個案當事人或其法定待遇人之同意及告知其應有之權益"},{"start":3380.203,"end":3399.381,"text":"那這裡為什麼要排除對不對就是因為你這邊心理師法明文就這樣寫所以這邊才會覺得應該加上得不受心理師法第19條規定之限制那主要就是為了兒少權益而且這是學校的機構相對來講已經對兒少權益是比較有保障了所以不知道衛福部為什麼這樣回應"},{"start":3400.662,"end":3426.264,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們心理師法裡面是明定說應經本人或法定代理人並不是去特別就是說我剛剛提到的不是針對未成年人而限制應告知法定代理人但是學校跟心理師他們會有不同的詮釋跟擔憂那實務上就是因為大家會以為一定要經起法定代理人"},{"start":3426.744,"end":3449.316,"text":"那你這邊宣稱的禍可是現場的實際狀況校園中不是這樣理解所以我們認為這樣明定比較能夠讓就是專業輔導諮商的時候不會被校長或是各方面有這個擔憂或者是家長拿這條來處理所以我們的考量是這樣那教育部也同意所以衛福部不知道就是為什麼覺得不要放"},{"start":3449.716,"end":3456.287,"text":"好,等一下,我們先請委員完在這統一來發言。我們先,對不起,我們先是侯孟楷委員、冠成培宇委員,謝謝。"},{"start":3462.798,"end":3491.176,"text":"五條之一我想大家都同意也希望是說能夠增強我們這個輔導的人員的這個權限或說至少能夠更積極的介入啦但是在這一個部分我想大家也應該要這個也請這個召委應該要看一下大家一起來看一下因為《心理師法》第19條其實它寫得也蠻完整而且它其實法條明文規定的是說各案當事人或法定代理人的同意所以其實那個時候定的是或嘛"},{"start":3491.556,"end":3511.547,"text":"那或就是二則一嘛,所以說如果說有個案當事人同意的話,你就不需要法定代言人的同意嘛。那我想在這個部分是不是能夠綜合,因為如果說你要把它給放進去不受《心理師法》第19條,但其實第19條裡面寫的有包括說一開始開宗明義講心理師要遵守專業倫理維護個案當事人的福祉嘛。"},{"start":3514.349,"end":3533.592,"text":"所以如果說你寫我就以明文規定寫說不授第19條這樣感覺怪怪應該是說綜合委員的意見能不能請我們行政部門在說明欄裡面說明就說學校或者是我們召開相關的個案會議的時候只要得到"},{"start":3534.718,"end":3562.71,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案的同意,就能夠來做這個相關的一個執行。」我講這才是符合兒童跟少年的最佳利益嘛。是不是?因為大家的意思其實是這樣。所以說如果說是用說明的部分,但不要寫說不受心理師法第19條,因為其實心理師法第19條是蠻正向的寫法。這完全沒有任何的那個就很正向的寫法。所以說如果我們明白的明文寫說不受心理師法第19條,反而會有點奇怪啊。以上謝謝。"},{"start":3565.558,"end":3589.751,"text":"好 謝謝主席我相信所有委員剛剛的發言應該都是基於CRC第三條的規定也就是一旦涉及兒少相關事務應以兒少最佳利益為考量我要告訴衛福部你們知不知道在很多的教育現場很多的家長是不願意他的孩子進入任何一個階段的輔導他們甚且認為老師的輔導可能是為孩子貼上標籤甚且有"},{"start":3594.714,"end":3606.543,"text":"等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林"},{"start":3619.994,"end":3621.095,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":3643.308,"end":3669.758,"text":"不受心理施法第19條取得法定代理人同意之限制。那我們覺得這個精神非常非常的重要,不要讓孩子落入學校想要幫忙他,孩子也想要被幫忙,但是一旦有家長站出來主張他不想要他的小孩被幫忙,那這件事情請問我們的孩子的利益該放在哪裡?以上,謝謝。好,周雅琳委員。我也想請教一下就是說因為衛福部其實是CRC的主管機關嘛,那我們現在如果假設在學校現場裡面,小孩"},{"start":3670.498,"end":3695.803,"text":"已經進入到處遇性輔導,情況比較危急了,他要接受,可是他的家長反對的時候,那學校可以提供給他服務嗎?學校應該要依照誰?如果家長非常,就像剛剛培語講的那個案例,學校如果家長非常反應強烈的時候,小孩到底要如何得到他的照顧,這個可不可以請你說明一下?好,來,衛福部需要針對這一條,我們還是以修法的條文來看怎麼樣處置會比較好吧,來衛福部。"},{"start":3696.858,"end":3716.495,"text":"主席各位委員大家好那我們還是重申就是我們建議就是這個行政院版本那理由就像剛剛說的其實我們在執行心理施法的時候我們還是要回到兒少的最佳利益那另外一個是說心理施法第19條第二項並沒 是一個行政的規定它其實也沒有相關的法則"},{"start":3717.296,"end":3727.159,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續�"},{"start":3743.985,"end":3750.234,"text":"我覺得在學校的現場提供這樣子的一個心理師的介入並沒有問題以上"},{"start":3753.402,"end":3781.324,"text":"我想我重申我們今天在這邊都是討論第五之一都是以學生的最大利益做考量但目前為止有一些的落差即從務實面來看剛曾培元委員也特別提到我說實在目前為止有很多生經科的醫師根本就不敢看未成年的學生好不好這是一個現場很多的家長也拒簽這是我們所看到第一線的一個狀況所以大家都是要尋求學生的最大的一個利益我們是不是"},{"start":3782.105,"end":3808.247,"text":"建議還是根據我們大家的討論還有包括很多委員討論還是尊重我們的提案版本就是把這個具有心理證書就大家可以看這上面的這個我們所謂的提案的版本也是得不受心理施法第19條之限制在未經法定代理人統一下執行大家是不是建議還是把這塊放進去可以嗎OK好那我們51條就照我們提案版本通過謝謝來第6條應該要放進去謝謝"},{"start":3812.025,"end":3837.83,"text":"第六條目前為止。來說的話有范雲版本、林宜瑾版本、張雅琳版本、黃秀芳委員版本。對不起喔,我省略了委員好不好。那柯真版本、陳培宇版本、陳秀寶的版本、葛如君的版本、郭國文的版本、還有莊瑞雄的版本、還有萬美玲的版本、還有羅廷偉的版本,還有包括我們現在的現行法。來,有沒有誰要提不出來?"},{"start":3839.467,"end":3842.983,"text":"陳佩玉委員、張雅琳委員、萬美玲委員、林宜瑾委員、范雲委員。"},{"start":3845.275,"end":3869.028,"text":"謝謝主席。我們辦公室的版本是希望先後順序的用詞改調,主要是因為它其實是同時性,它其實不是那麼固定的階段性的內容,所以這個部分也要請教育部注意。另外在針對實驗教育的部分,范委員的版本有提到有第11條的附帶決議,要求教育部要在三個月內嚴禮對於實驗教育學生輔導資源的提供。"},{"start":3870.249,"end":3892.201,"text":"因為之前我們上個禮拜討論的時候是不是等一下可以請范雲委員講一下這個部分因為對於實驗教育的部分我覺得還有一些需要討論的部分那另外好就先這樣謝謝不好意思我第6條是不是可以跟並這個6之1一起要討論因為目前6之1只有陳培余的版本好不好我們一起兩個都可以一起來討論然後呢接下來我們請張雅琳委員"},{"start":3900.859,"end":3929.059,"text":"關於我的版本的重點基本上就是說因為學生的心理行為和社會體多樣且複雜很難明顯地去區隔問題的行為發展階段所以學生輔導不應該直接套用三級預防概念並且以時間的順序來進行以及那個區分專業分工這樣會導致介入性的輔導必須等待發展性的輔導後無效之後他才能夠介入或者是說主義性輔導必須等待介入性輔導無效之後才能介入的問題所以這樣可能就會來不及所以我"},{"start":3929.899,"end":3943.582,"text":"這個部分還有就是說這個儲遇性的輔導應該要結合各類的資源跟專業服務但是不限於心理治療跟社會工作家庭輔導那我也看到運版跟提配討論版本都有把那個治療放進來我就是非常的感謝 謝謝"},{"start":3948.277,"end":3974.554,"text":"我想第六條其實非常的重要因為我們過去的三級輔導其實在這個接觸孩子的即時性上面其實有很大的問題我們在這個委員會答詢的時候都有特別提出來所以在我修正的版本當中在第二項的第二款跟第三款的部分我有做一些文字上的修正那包括就是把原來的線型的版本經前款發展性輔導仍無法有效滿足其需求"},{"start":3978.597,"end":3999.335,"text":"當一關不行後才要到下一關文字的部分我把它刪掉了簡單來說在第二項第二款部分介入性輔導我們直接說針對有個別性個別化輔導需求或適應欠佳情緒困擾行為偏差自傷然後遭受疏忽及虐待風險等"},{"start":4000.396,"end":4011.104,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人�"},{"start":4024.173,"end":4048.21,"text":"持續校內輔導外經評估人需校外輔導資源借物或追蹤處理這是在文字上修正簡單來講就是我們希望能夠打破過去當第一級輔導不行的時候才進入到第二級第二級不行再來第三級這樣可能會緩不濟急所以我們希望在孩子每一個狀況都可以來到他最及時可以的那一級輔導以上"},{"start":4053.513,"end":4053.773,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":4062.79,"end":4065.971,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":4091.558,"end":4116.96,"text":"問題行為實務上很難去明確區分發展的階段因此本席認為不應該把三級預防的概念加入明確的順序學生輔導應該是累計性的輔導沒有在某個級別或者進到另一個級別就沒有其他級的事所以本席認為應該要拿掉具有時間順序的字眼"},{"start":4117.66,"end":4125.049,"text":"另外,行為偏差也要針對介入性輔導,因為我們一定要強化及早的發現及早介入的概念。以上,謝謝。"},{"start":4133.092,"end":4137.233,"text":"我這一條主要就是針對輔資中心他在處理處於性輔導的時候的角色我蠻關心的因為原本教育部的意見好像會讓輔資中心這邊覺得是比較被動也謝謝教育部跟我溝通之後目前教育部這邊提會討論版本已經包含要和輔資中心"},{"start":4158.539,"end":4158.999,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":4175.231,"end":4190.295,"text":"所以這個第一個問題要請教育部確認一下你們這個題會討論版本是不是這樣子讓我們各界可以放心那針對六條之一這個部分我是支持的就是我們能夠明定教育教職員對輔導的配合義務那這部分蠻重要的會有利於學生輔導工作的進展"},{"start":4196.417,"end":4197.138,"text":"陳培宜委員陳培宜委員"},{"start":4216.078,"end":4229.845,"text":"但這個資訊很多人不知道所以其實因為實驗教育學生也會掛在每個學校嘛他本來就可以有資格用這個資源所以我的附帶決議是說本來就有試用但部分學生跟家長不了解相關資源請教育部3個月內嚴寧加強實驗教育學生輔導資源的提供宣傳"},{"start":4235.647,"end":4238.549,"text":"陳佩玉委員、許智傑委員、郭育晴委員、吳佩玉委員"},{"start":4255.359,"end":4276.541,"text":"好,謝謝主席。剛剛主席有Q我六之一,那我就直接講我們的版本。目前其實我們提出六之一。那這個版本其實是來自於學生輔導法實行細則第七條,可是我要用力地強調為什麼我們要把實行細則內容拉到母法來處理。我想要用一個比較悲傷的案例來說明,之前封中個案的時候就是學校裡面"},{"start":4277.122,"end":4278.243,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案〉案〉"},{"start":4305.7,"end":4312.945,"text":"不管是積極的配合或是消極的配合甚至做出反輔導的行為其實屢屢對學生造成傷害常常是我們在現場看到的狀況所以我們才會積極的主張要把學生輔導法實行細則第7條拉到母法來處理而且我們的寫法比較強硬我們甚至認為對於訂定輔導方案還有計畫學校應邀請學校行政人員相關教師還有輔導教師而不是得邀請"},{"start":4331.938,"end":4342.025,"text":"adequate to the school curriculum, the school's staff members should cooperate with the counseling program or the planning regulations."},{"start":4362.358,"end":4365.72,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":4396.379,"end":4417.551,"text":"主席大家好這個三級跟這個時序我是蠻嚴重的反對啦因為我在學校裡面我們待過我當過訓導主任跟補校主任所以學生的狀況你說要這樣子去嚴格的劃分其實真的是非常的不容易你只要接觸到務實的學生的狀況他有可能"},{"start":4418.251,"end":4424.694,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件及文化委員長林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件及文化委員"},{"start":4435.62,"end":4436.001,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":4452.962,"end":4455.726,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":4470.863,"end":4488.509,"text":"另外我所知道的像是高中行政主師他們其實不太一樣在有一些是沒有設組長的情況之下那又要避免這個輔導老師他去負擔行政工作是不是也相對的也會影響到這個輔導的一個工作那另外還有就是如果要鼓勵這個輔導教師去精進輔導的一個專業針對有取得執照的輔導的教師是不是也應該要給予一些獎勵以上 謝謝好 謝謝然後過來是吳佩儀委員"},{"start":4502.937,"end":4509.843,"text":"這個我們一直在關注的就是有很多可能有需要輔導的個案但是沒有確實的被評估然後沒有獲得應該要的輔導但我在這個現在這個文字當中我會比較關注的是第一個我現在在處理性輔導當中才看到了家庭輔導四個字但是在前面兩個階段的個案其實都有可能"},{"start":4524.737,"end":4526.158,"text":"當中提供評估轉介機制進行個案管理及輔導那談論在這個階段就有需要家庭輔導的話那我們是由哪個單位來啟動什麼樣的機制會"},{"start":4542.387,"end":4560.87,"text":"來加入家庭教育中心的這個介入輔導協助嗎這個希望教育部等會可以說明另外關於緊急個案應該要如何被定義那因為我們看到很多就是他也許是緊急個案但是如果在我們現在修了之後這個程序裡面他還是沒有能夠確實的被評估為是緊急而沒有獲得適當的處置的話這個會不會是我現在擔心的一個問題這等會請教育部也可以說明謝謝還有沒有好現在請教育部先說明一下"},{"start":4576.586,"end":4589.374,"text":"第6條的修正確實如同委員所說我們希望把大家對現行條文的誤解以為發展性、介入性跟處理性是有時間的順序而且必須要循序漸進來進行"},{"start":4590.755,"end":4614.034,"text":"現在改為不是依照時間順序而是依照學生輔導需求的樣態來做處理這個是我們修法的主要精神感謝委員的支持第二個部分是有關於實驗教育的這一塊目前國中小因為屬於義務教育學生都設有學籍高中依法入學設有學籍的學生"},{"start":4614.654,"end":4638.011,"text":"因為都有涉及,所以他都可以使用目前涉及學校的這個輔導室。如果有輔導需求,輔導室可以提供相關的資源。但如同委員所說,有一塊在高中階段的實驗教育的學習者未必具有學生的身份。這一塊因為沒有涉及學校,將來應該是要由縣市的主管機關的輔資中心來提供輔導資源。"},{"start":4639.592,"end":4663.413,"text":"這一塊因為陳培宇委員還有范雲委員都有提出附帶決議。我們是建議布里頭這邊可以接受附帶決議。但時程上面范委員提供的是三……原本提的都是三個月啦。不過我們認為未具學籍的那一塊由輔資中心來提供協助,可能需要會同地方主管機關來做討論,而且可能會涉及到比較細緻的部分。"},{"start":4664.634,"end":4686.542,"text":"所以我們建議是時程上可以修改成6個月之後我們來做配合辦理那其次有關於外委員提到有關於要把那個危機事件納入介入性輔導的部分首先說明因為林宜瑾理委員有建議第6條可以新增一項針對緊急的個案經由主管機關會同學生"},{"start":4687.683,"end":4709.563,"text":"幾由學校會同學生輔助中心會商評估確有需求之後就可以做轉介處理性輔導的工作。應該也是因應這個危機事件的同樣一個道理。我們是建議可以採行題彙版的文字而不是在介入心裡頭特別把危機事件放進去。因為危機事件的定義可能包含各種類型。"},{"start":4710.504,"end":4713.445,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案〉案〉"},{"start":4739.071,"end":4753.436,"text":"包括介入性跟儲遇性都要輔導的啦所以我們現在第6條的最後一項建議在這個預有緊急個案前面加上高級中等以下學校可能需要加因為高中階段有輔導老師有"},{"start":4754.957,"end":4756.118,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案〉案〉"},{"start":4784.651,"end":4801.357,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 第1、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 第1、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 第1、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 第1、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 第1、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條"},{"start":4811.761,"end":4822.325,"text":"五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":4840.572,"end":4842.613,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4863.325,"end":4873.713,"text":"我也非常贊同最後一項一定要放進去就我們自己長期這個做這個諮商輔導的一個經驗其實它是還是要有根據這個東西來做一個類別否則就像諮商一個急診室的一個概念每個人都要往急診去從到時候就造成一個大塞車的一個狀況所以它還是有層次不是時間序而是層次的差別而且那個我們提案的版本的最後這我也非常的贊同就預有緊急個案軍學校會同學生輔導諮商中心召開"},{"start":4891.887,"end":4911.21,"text":"單案或個案的會議的必要性,然後得轉介處遇性的一個輔導,就隨時都會有一個,萬一發生一般性完全預料之外的一件事情當中,我們還有一個這樣的東西來當作一個防火牆,這比院版來說我個人覺得會是比較是更加的一個完整了好不好。"},{"start":4911.65,"end":4923.401,"text":"所以大家是不是看一下提案版本如果大家覺得這個提案版本然後每一個人的宗旨每一個人的剛剛委員所提到的這些意見如果說都能夠反映在我們所提案的版本當中我們是不是就到提案版本來通過好 等一下我們先遛先先先先先遛 來"},{"start":4930.142,"end":4957.064,"text":"先看一下,如果大家都充分發言完發現這個東西完全能夠反映大家的一個意識的話我們就照提案版本來做處理好不好這個提案版本我沒有意見我是針對剛剛司長講的就是實驗學校的學生的部分那其實你們回應給我的時候本來就講到高中部分就是沒有涉及的學校學籍的部分本來就可以依照實驗教育法第18條就是縣市的"},{"start":4959.426,"end":4961.368,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":4971.992,"end":4995.387,"text":"我說明因為那個范委員是在第11條提附帶決議陳培宇委員是在第6條提附帶決議兩個的內容其實一個比較詳細一個比較整體但兩個時程原本都提的是三個月但部裡頭在評估的時候原本范委員是建議三個月是可以接受的但是第6條的附帶決議是建議要六個月那這個可能這個是國家署這邊可以來補充一下 謝謝"},{"start":5004.277,"end":5008.468,"text":"跟召委及各位委員也補充,剛剛委員所提的"},{"start":5009.788,"end":5036.966,"text":"國中小的部分沒有問題那本來就是在學校就可以運用到高中分兩種有學級無學級有學級的在學校層級可以用當然晚第三級也可以用那無學級的只有第三級的連結了在實況上這樣的連結我個人覺得還蠻低度的並沒有真正很容易發揮作用它比較散所以我覺得這件事情如果我們要好好做"},{"start":5038.107,"end":5039.569,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":5053.829,"end":5054.109,"text":"五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":5078.973,"end":5089.111,"text":"你們是不是自己寫一下一個版本三個月到六個月的齁那這樣子我覺得其實喔就是說表示原來的宣傳很不到位真的也是有點傷害他們的權益啦好不好好OK好"},{"start":5096.38,"end":5113.743,"text":"先說陳P委員的提案,我們態度上是非常支持的,因為他大部分的規範都來自原本現行的學生輔導法的實行細則。裡頭有調修的部分就是讓學校的主動性更強一點,原本是德,前面改成一個因。"},{"start":5114.324,"end":5138.8,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案》案。netes, 陳培一委還有一個新增的條文就是針對第二項到第五項的輔導方案或計畫,學校教職員均應與職者範圍內予以配合。這是如同剛才陳培一委所說明的。我們從特殊的個案來看就發現學校處事的整合並不好。"},{"start":5139.82,"end":5160.126,"text":"所以學務處根本不甩輔導室那所以列入這樣的一個條文我想是應該將來是具有引導性的可以更說得更清楚所以我們贊成那唯一就是剛才特別提到這一塊第三項後面希望加高級中等以下學校所以我們建議能夠參採題會版但加上高中以下對對對黃色標示的部分"},{"start":5162.867,"end":5163.707,"text":"等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5183.792,"end":5210.109,"text":"行為偏差或遭受重大創傷經驗。我想創傷經驗就已經涵蓋剛剛萬美林所提出來的個別的這些的項目當中。還有找辨識、發現及時介入這些比較清楚。依其需求定立個別化之輔導方案或計劃提供諮詢、個別諮詢、小團體輔導及其他有助於學生輔導措施並提供評估展借機制進行個案管理及輔導。那我們再看往下往下往下"},{"start":5213.565,"end":5214.345,"text":"第三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":5234.213,"end":5234.393,"text":"來,孟凱委員。"},{"start":5259.271,"end":5283.79,"text":"感謝召委我想對於我們提案版本席沒有意見我也覺得這樣子算是蠻完整但是只有其中一點大家看一下我想可能請教育部再說明一下就是現行法條在介入性輔導裡面現行法條是有一句重複發生問題行為但我們現在提願版是把它給修掉改成是情緒困擾跟行為偏差"},{"start":5285.211,"end":5308.862,"text":"因為說實在現行法條有這個重複發生問題行為可能那時候有這樣子的樣態所以我想說是不是還是保留重複發生問題行為這幾個字可能會對於我們在實務界上來講可能有一些行為它不一定是真的有到情緒困擾或是行為偏差那麼的嚴重那但是它是一而再再而三發生那也可以適用介入性輔導"},{"start":5310.023,"end":5321.716,"text":"我講這可能是相對比較完整因為現行法條有這樣子但是你現在提願版是把它給修掉那如果說我們把它保留這樣的部分可能會比更加完整那其他的文字我沒有意見以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":5327.277,"end":5350.828,"text":"先說明發展性輔導是針對百分之百的學生每一位但只要學生有個別的需求出來它就會變成是介入性輔導所以不管它是不是重複發生它有發生它就是已經有個案的需求需要輔導了所以我會建議不用寫重複發生這是第一個但大家會認為說以為介入性輔導全部都是"},{"start":5351.388,"end":5353.67,"text":"陳佩玉委員的部分你們就"},{"start":5371.577,"end":5392.745,"text":"說明一下我們是建議就是採納陳培宇委員的建議唯一小小調整的部分是有關於那個積極協助課業的那一塊我們會把它放在因為他有輔導需求所以需要彈性的處理出缺期以及成績考察的那一塊的脈絡底下做積極性的課業協助這樣可能比較完整目前提會版本就是"},{"start":5400.959,"end":5421.128,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。謝謝主席,謝謝學特斯。沒有問題,我覺得就是謝謝教育部的版本。那我最後確定一下,剛剛那個附帶決議的部分目前你是希望改成幾個月?三到六個月嗎?"},{"start":5425.995,"end":5426.836,"text":"三、繼續審查委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":5456.232,"end":5459.114,"text":"范雲委員林宜瑾委員張雅琳委員黃秀芳委員許智傑委員柯志恩委員陳培宇委員陳秀寶委員郭國文委員"},{"start":5490.074,"end":5508.003,"text":"范雲委員、張雅琳委員這條也非常的重要,因為這條第7條主要是在講學校的責任跟資源的結合那對於就是原本的中途錯學、長期缺課、中途離校、身心障礙、特殊境遇、文化及境遇弱勢等的輔導"},{"start":5508.803,"end":5509.964,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":5523.894,"end":5524.074,"text":"二、繼續審查委員"},{"start":5545.34,"end":5546.461,"text":"接下來張雅琳委員然後林宜瑾委員"},{"start":5576.37,"end":5592.831,"text":"在第7條部分我有提出一個修正動議,最主要就是說把督導的機制放進去,因為我們在現行的法規裡面並沒有督導的這個機制,那可是其實即便是內部的督導或是外部的團體督導或是對,內部跟外部的團體,內部或是外部或團體的督導"},{"start":5593.732,"end":5593.792,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":5614.915,"end":5640.321,"text":"加上這個原本我的條文是第二項的部分是學校各行政單位應共同推動及執行第六條第三級輔導相關措施協助群上人員落實其輔導職責並安排輔導相關活動之實施那我現在加入了即建立專業督導機制其組織方式評論內容及講補助之實施辦法由中央主管機關定職謝謝"},{"start":5650.323,"end":5670.289,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 行政單位安排輔導課程及活動以外,其他例如資商輔導的使用空間、校內外相關人士或法定通報等,都需要行政單位來支援。"},{"start":5672.29,"end":5696.329,"text":"所以本席有增加相關的文字希望能讓跨處式的這個合作更順那另外第三項本席原本先把反覆自我傷害列入有輔導需求的學生對象考量到這樣寫可能會只有反覆自傷才會列入那反而排除掉自我傷害行為的學生但自傷這個行為是有一次就很嚴重了齁"},{"start":5697.25,"end":5704.597,"text":"因此本席可以修正把反覆的字詞拿掉但必須要納入自我傷害以上 謝謝"},{"start":5709.798,"end":5727.09,"text":"陳培語委員在我們辦公室的版本裡面我們特別加上的一些現況其實目前非常多高中以下的學生經常遇到的事情可是這些事情我特別寫出來包含物質濫用、網路成癮、自殺意念、自殺企圖"},{"start":5728.391,"end":5752.29,"text":"為什麼要特別寫出來?主要是希望針對這次在修法的時候把相關這些現象的描述讓更多的現場老師或者是教職員包含前面6支所提到的教職員大家必須要對這些事情有一個基本的認知並且認為這些事情是有機會在學校完成每一個階段的輔導工作所以我們還是希望把它加進去以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":5753.735,"end":5758.093,"text":"好,謝謝教育部。請根據委員的做事先回應。"},{"start":5760.192,"end":5783.431,"text":"第七條,針對自我傷害的部分已經列入第三項的文字修正。感謝各位委員的協助以及支持關心。另外有關於要建議在第七條有關學校的權責的部分,建議要增加建立督導機制的部分。我先說明一下,因為第七條各位可以看到它整個學校的主體,這條條文是以學校為主體的。"},{"start":5784.432,"end":5785.552,"text":"兩、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":5803.058,"end":5809.82,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":5831.691,"end":5840.296,"text":"第7條就是加入了自我傷害這是每個委員都會特別提出來的那其他的字句就是照我們題會版本來做通過"},{"start":5844.734,"end":5868.491,"text":"來修正文字來我們看一下好不好各位我不用再念了就把紅字看一下可以嗎加入了第四自我傷害然後呢也加入了學生校外生活輔導會少年輔導委員會等字句可以哈好那七之一呢等一下主席不好意思主席主席主席主席當沒有回應我的部分呢可不可以請司長再說明一下"},{"start":5875.052,"end":5895.542,"text":"因為輔導的需求的樣態相當複雜多元我們目前在第6條還是第12條的立法說明應該有非常完整的敘述我們建議在條文上面可能不需要把它定得太細以免會有遺漏的狀況以上說明"},{"start":5899.219,"end":5922.189,"text":"還有我們是不是也順便來處理我們附帶決議第7這是由陳培宇委員所提出來的那個教育部是不是也要針對附帶決議也做一個說明附帶決議7主席我那個附帶決議是關於7之1但是我剛才沒有討論到7之1等一下這邊是7耶你們寫錯了嗎這裡面寫錯了"},{"start":5928.174,"end":5930.039,"text":"等17人擬具第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":5939.473,"end":5967.127,"text":"欸部長今天有來嗎?部長我要感謝你喔在我之前的學輔法的詢答當中部長回應了我一段話我非常的感動部長你還記得嗎我當時說死因回溯這件事情從我递補進立法院已經一年多我花了非常多力氣拜託教育部拜託衛福部甚至拜託國科會去找出專案委託研究的可能性而國科會跟衛福部教育部開會的時候大家都"},{"start":5969.867,"end":5995.272,"text":"當時部長您告訴我說跟委員報告,事實上,委員所關心的也是我在內部在教育部裡面跟同仁的要求也就是未來的新法過去我們每一次甚至每一個禮拜每一個月有固定的案例分析可以建立各個學校各個地區理解學生真正的問題然後再做出一些回應因為每一個城市都有一些差異每一個學生樣態都非常的不同"},{"start":5996.232,"end":6013.686,"text":"如果我們可以針對這些有更好的因應策略、輔導的策略部長你再次表示非常同意事實這就是我們現在我們希望一定要從這個方向做更專業的介入有更科學證據的累積作為後續心理輔導支持學生發展的力量"},{"start":6014.346,"end":6032.998,"text":"部長你來自基層,你也念過在博士班有學術研究的能力你一定知道相關研究累積證據的意義對於後續我們在做很多政策的訂定或者是學校輔導方案的訂定都會有極大的幫助我當然知道這件事情它當然有它的困難"},{"start":6034.239,"end":6050.189,"text":"但是所有的研究如果都只是因為有困難很難做我們就不做那我覺得這一次學服法修法沒有機會放進去我真的不知道還有什麼機會把學生自殺死因回溯調查機制放進去每一次衛福部也告訴我說已經有0到6歲"},{"start":6051.69,"end":6077.916,"text":"但是在協助會服務零到六歲教授也私下跟我們開會的時候告訴我們那個零到六歲的死因回溯機制那個方法還有那個邏輯並沒有辦法適用到現在學齡還有高中以下甚至是大學生的部分所以我要再次強調死因回溯調查機制這件事情我們可以找出合理的方法符合邏輯的方法同時照顧到所謂遺族的心情這些我都理解"},{"start":6078.616,"end":6090.174,"text":"如果有好的研究倫理好的研究方法我真的不知道為什麼有困境我們沒有辦法做這件事情所以我要再次強調七之一我還是希望教育部可以納入討論積極回應謝謝"},{"start":6097.496,"end":6115.648,"text":"范雲委員、郭玉琴委員、張雅琳委員、吳佩儀委員。關於這個7-1,大家也可以參考我的修正動議。我有一個7-1的修正動議。主要也是關於自殺智商的研究,希望能夠定在這裡。"},{"start":6117.63,"end":6136.025,"text":"因為這個部分之前在跟衛福部辦公聽會的時候衛福部經常有一個說法說兒少自殺死因回溯是因為自殺污名化遺族悲傷調適歷程相關的方法有限度效度的問題所以收集資料有它的困難度"},{"start":6136.885,"end":6163.156,"text":"但是這邊我要講一下這個跟衛福部或者是教育部找的專家有關那我這邊主張要的是系統性的資訊系統性的因素研究比如說學校制度或者是生活環境那我要講一下我是社會學的背景我們在這個議題上跟心理學的背景非常不一樣我們看重的是社會系統性的環境對自殺率的影響我們剛剛有看到那個數字"},{"start":6164.136,"end":6185.732,"text":"就是之前是每年一千多人現在是上萬人所以這部分是跟系統性的環境學校、教育、生活、家庭有關所以你找到不同的學者做不同的研究事實上不管是死亡原因的回溯或者是系統性學校制度的研究那這其實是可以再去識別化"},{"start":6186.152,"end":6187.673,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":6204.129,"end":6226.194,"text":"雖然教育部說兒少全法13條有定,可是那邊是針對6歲以下的兒童死亡原因回溯分析。我們剛講到在青少年這一塊自殺已經是第二高的死亡原因了。所以是不是能夠放在這,雖然之前跟教育部溝通的時候教育部說有困難,可是我還是希望說能夠放在這裡。"},{"start":6227.054,"end":6251.307,"text":"那如果不行的話我也希望能夠保留我們再討論好嗎在這裡真的要為就是說這個非常重要的議題陳情那希望能夠做好的研究不能只丟給衛福部因為衛福部我們溝通了半天他就是說方法有問題我覺得這個是學科的差異那至少我們社會學就是古典的普爾幹就是以自殺論文明他就是看到社會文化的因素好謝謝"},{"start":6252.861,"end":6281.22,"text":"接下來我們請郭育晴委員我想學生自殺自傷在傷痕的原因處理其實學生輔導的一個關鍵我國雖然已經有做一些相關的法規的分析可是因為各級學生他們在不同的階段下發展的原因其實是非常不一樣的所以其實我們應該要更了解學生自殺自傷的原因才能夠去強化輔導的一個力量"},{"start":6281.92,"end":6300.701,"text":"那尤其是現在第一線的這個輔導的主任他也有講到其實自傷有時候其實不是已經不是只有個人的行為有時候會變成一種集體的一個效應是會在班上其實會擴散的那我想這個地方其實也非常支持這個陳培宇委員他們的版本"},{"start":6301.281,"end":6301.702,"text":"張雅琳委員"},{"start":6321.8,"end":6322.68,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":6345.465,"end":6370.497,"text":"而是這個更廣泛的結構跟社會性的一些議題所以我們是有必要去提出相關的研究報告我覺得這才能夠讓老師學校的老師更早可以預警跟預判然後提供給孩子一個更好的協助那我也想再請教第二個部分就是說現在我們在講說好像調查自殺會有這些遺族啊悲傷調適等等的問題"},{"start":6371.457,"end":6394.538,"text":"但是我們現在也還是沒有去做這些自殺未遂或者是嚴重自傷個案的回顧如果我們有做一些相關的回顧的話其實也可以更讓老師去了解學生可能在學校裡面面對哪些不利處境我們是不是可以針對這個部分一起來在這一條裡面去做一些研究這樣我覺得對孩子才是一個最好的保障 謝謝"},{"start":6397.712,"end":6418.224,"text":"吳佩儀委員我是非常支持陳佩儀委員版本第7條之一我們對於青少年的自殺死因應該要做系統性的回顧那過去教委會也有開過公聽會我找出當時教育部的回覆當時教育部是說透過系統性的死亡回溯分析討論類似事件"},{"start":6425.389,"end":6447.323,"text":"當時教育部也答應我們說會配合衛福部來共同研議那今天教育部給我們說不予增訂這是教育部跟衛福部共同研議的結果嗎我是認為這個應該要有必要來把它放進去我們確實需要系統性的去回顧自殺死因第二個我也希望第七條剛討論到第七條的有關於這個"},{"start":6450.346,"end":6472.964,"text":"高中以下我們列出的幾個樣態要來進行主動提供輔導資源的我還是支持陳培英委員版本當中我希望把自殺意念可以把它放進去因為我認為青少年的自殺並且死亡率我們是連年攀升15到24歲去年更是創下歷史新高我覺得這個問題非常的嚴重希望在這一次的修法可以得到重視謝謝"},{"start":6476.113,"end":6503.394,"text":"接下來我們報告一下我們剛剛第7條已經通過我們現在討論7之1有關自殺的部分對不起等一下徐志傑委員謝謝主席我想對政策要很重要我們知道自殺有各種不同的意念不同的想法那到底為什麼會自殺有些真的是系統性的問題好幾年前那個微笑不丹是全世界幸福指數最高的國家"},{"start":6504.008,"end":6504.168,"text":"張雅琳委員"},{"start":6533.491,"end":6562.048,"text":"其實聯合國從去年就一直不停的在推廣就是我們必須全世界的各個國家因為都必須去面對青少年死亡率、自殺率上升的原因所以它一直在鼓吹各個國家去推動相關的研究所以我相信這一定是可以做得出來的好 謝謝你們剛剛寫的是不予增訂免予增訂啦但是委員很顯然認為你們需要增訂好不好"},{"start":6564.849,"end":6582.198,"text":"首先說明學校在實際上輔導有自我傷害的個案不管未遂或者自殺死亡每一個在輔導的過程其實我們的輔導老師一定會去充分理解孩子遭遇到的問題是哪裡"},{"start":6583.038,"end":6609.446,"text":"他的危險因子是來自於哪方面﹖是家庭﹖人際﹖課業﹖感情﹖還是各方面﹖哪邊﹖我相信每一個輔導老師﹖每一個輔導教員一定會理解﹖才能對這下提供輔導的一個策略跟方式﹖才能產生效果﹖所以輔導個案的時候﹖其實已經有這樣在做﹖那我想我們將來還是會持續透過個案研討的方式﹖專業督導的方式﹖來強化輔導老師以及專業輔導人這樣的一個作為﹖"},{"start":6611.306,"end":6640.675,"text":"第二個就是針對學校的這個自殺死亡的個案在我們部裡頭目前的自殺防治的這個三級預防工作其實有要求學校在自殺死亡個案事後都要做回顧跟整理發現這個死亡為什麼最後他會造成這樣一個事實那處理的過程到底哪個環節可能將來還有精進的空間學校也都需要做調整精進的分析並且要上傳回報"},{"start":6641.195,"end":6655.895,"text":"到主管機關要來做檢核。那這個部分也督促學校在個案的發生過程當中有些可能來不及挽回那個遺憾但他必須要以此為借鏡包括學校的環境包括學校的整個班級經營或老師師生的互動"},{"start":6656.516,"end":6674.097,"text":"等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。adequately, we have already designed such a system to be implemented by the school.第三個部分剛剛提到的就是行政主管機關不管地方或中央每年應該定期的進行調查研究"},{"start":6675.512,"end":6704.625,"text":"那從研究的結果當中回饋政策上哪裡需要調整哪裡要改進這個部分我們目前在中央的部分我們也有在做那只不過因為我們現在目前第三個調查研究部分主要來自我們校園案前通報的資訊以及剛剛講的針對自殺死亡的個案學校事後所做的回顧分析跟精進作為當中去進一步的分析那大致上對於學生死亡的個案是加頻因素還是因為精神疾患"},{"start":6705.405,"end":6733.084,"text":"還是因為人際、感情、課業其實基本上還是大家大致上可以做一個策略的分析的但可能沒有如同剛才范委員或者是蠻多委員講的更深入屬於社會系統整體的那一塊可能還沒有辦法做到這個程度那我們是建議是這個因為目前的法條都是幾乎是由中央主管機關應怎樣做尤其後面寫了一個主案回顧"},{"start":6735.833,"end":6762.591,"text":"我們認為實務上確實有待考慮因為它跟衛福部依照自殺防治法以及兒童及少年權益保障法的做法兩者整體之間必須要有一些思考啦所以是建議是不是這一條可以不要急著入法但我們很認同委員所主張的這些理念跟精神跟做法我想中央主法機關也有必要會同地方政府跟學校來做更好的一個規劃所以陳培鈺委員針對第七條之一有提出一個附帶決議"},{"start":6763.732,"end":6771.017,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具"},{"start":6793.433,"end":6793.974,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":6803.553,"end":6804.173,"text":"五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":6827.392,"end":6845.425,"text":"支持保留再討論嘛,對,就支持保留我們到院會協商的時候再去做處理。有位七之一好不好本席裁定我們先休息五分鐘好不好,那個司長你講到一大堆齁,好,你去跟人家委員溝通一下好不好,我們休息五分鐘,我們到6分鐘我們到10點30分再回來開會,謝謝。"},{"start":6852.03,"end":6859.413,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件進行回顧性調查 。」"},{"start":6881.541,"end":6896.329,"text":"教育部應該有一些統計正規的針對學生的問題但是不要特別去強調自殺因為他當然政策在實際上一定會針對那個最嚴重的去做所以我的一說學生個案問題"},{"start":6898.17,"end":6909.681,"text":"然後進行回顧調查研究,不要阻礙,因為需不需要阻礙回到那個專業包括資料的取得。不過這後面一定行政院一定會做的。"},{"start":6918.109,"end":6926.917,"text":"然後接著我跟各位再談一下說,除了你去公布這一個不需要因為你做一定會公布,提供學生輔導最佳化因應側面。"},{"start":6934.084,"end":6951.765,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第"},{"start":6952.506,"end":6974.738,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":6979.72,"end":6981.083,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":6989.778,"end":7007.543,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 判決於19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 判決於19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 判決於19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 判決於19人擬具"},{"start":7013.484,"end":7037.849,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 並且審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 並且審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 並且審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 並且審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 並且審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 並且審查委員張"},{"start":7038.459,"end":7040.62,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":7059.448,"end":7069.11,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":7088.075,"end":7114.34,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 項目2、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 項目3、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 項目4、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 項目5、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 項目6、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法"},{"start":7115.14,"end":7119.982,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 案"},{"start":7130.262,"end":7141.167,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":7154.526,"end":7167.299,"text":"來我們準備開會謝謝來我們帶9關於第7之1部分教育部目前跟休息時間跟委員討論決議是來教育部回應一下司長回應一下7之1"},{"start":7177.979,"end":7185.889,"text":"其實我跟你說,自殺的回溯對我們來說是非常重要的。你的回溯要了解出它的根源,你才有辦法避免它再一次的發生。"},{"start":7187.11,"end":7200.819,"text":"現在目前我們就是卡在這個字句上面然後是不是入法的這個層面上面好不好那就麻煩第七之一我們保留請教育部回去再擬定比較更適合的條文我會很快開協商的好不好來接下來"},{"start":7205.939,"end":7216.287,"text":"我們來看第九條,九條目前是由陳培宇委員來提案,還有范雲委員的修正動議,好不好,大家來看第九條。"},{"start":7226.1,"end":7242.551,"text":"我們的版本是希望在學生輔導的資料這些資料的細緻處理這件事情學生輔導的資料其實是非常非常敏感的資料而且說實話在輔導專業倫理裡面是不是學校每個教職員每個老師都有相關的意識其實我是打一個問號"},{"start":7243.892,"end":7266.81,"text":"那我認為很多資料處理不到或是運用不到往往會造成學生二度的傷害所以我們辦公室才會堅持相關資料的妥善規範那也謝謝教育部在提會版本裡面也把我們的提醒納入教育部提會討論版本那另外我們還是要提醒目前教育部對於這個資料的規範只有在學生輔導法實行細則裡面第9條跟第10條兩個條文沒有單獨訂定執法"},{"start":7272.094,"end":7292.386,"text":"但是如果依照第九條第二項條文的敘述其實教育部應該要訂定執法雖然你們一直告訴我們有所謂個人資料保護法廣泛的對於個人資料的收集處理利用進行規範可是學生輔導資料的敏感性我要再次強調我覺得教育部還是要有相關執法的訂定那好以上謝謝來范委員"},{"start":7299.03,"end":7313.454,"text":"第9條是關於學校輔導工作還有學校輔導主管我的部分是針對學校輔導主管的資格有一個修正動議我是希望能夠訂說學校輔導主管已由具輔導專業專長者優先任用"},{"start":7316.655,"end":7343.045,"text":"主要是專業團體跟我反映說目前輔導主管由輔導教師擔任的比例太低那國中小的輔導主管那依照國教法21條的話無論是輔導主任或是輔導主長都只需要輔導熱誠和專業之能那他專業之能的具體內容只是要修習一般教師要修習的二到四學分輔導原理那也不需要輔導教師資格就可以擔任主管"},{"start":7343.805,"end":7357.696,"text":"大家知道如果主管的資格不夠專業的話其實在領導上就會出問題根據我跟教育部要的資料112年六都國中小輔導主任包含學夫主任總數有1624人其中有輔導教師資格的只有215人"},{"start":7364.121,"end":7379.147,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔"},{"start":7391.832,"end":7416.557,"text":"所以我的版本希望在這第9條裡面就明定說學校輔導主管宜由具輔導專業專長者優先任用我知道你們現狀會說沒辦法馬上可是如果有的話就宜由優先任用那這是考慮現實中的困難比如說有些小校的老師有限那都是在兼任可是我覺得至少要把宜跟優先這兩個"},{"start":7417.697,"end":7419.659,"text":"范雲等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":7446.852,"end":7472.808,"text":"至少都高於現在那個輔導熱誠跟專業認知因為那個只要兩到四學分的輔導原理那個教育部因為這裡頭的用輔導專業專長的文字會跟我們在第四條的第三項輔志中心主管人員的用字是一樣的所以在內涵上定義上應該盡可能一次避免差異這是第一個"},{"start":7473.408,"end":7474.548,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":7502.888,"end":7503.309,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":7518.186,"end":7526.048,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案"},{"start":7546.633,"end":7555.057,"text":"然後接下來我們會增加了一條學生一項學校輔導主管宜由具輔導專業輔導專長者優先榮譽你們是用輔導專業專長者盡量不要用到那些專有名詞保有彈性空間這樣可以吧專業專長OK好感謝我們第9條就這樣子造文字修正通過好你還有"},{"start":7576.584,"end":7577.995,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":7583.355,"end":7609.773,"text":"說明一下因為其實各執法的規範還蠻嚴密的啦那我想我們會再仔細檢視一下需要調整沒有沒有沒有我們周末問過律師的各執法的使用在這裡會有很大的落差所以執法的部分我覺得那主席可不可以允許我們執法的部分讓我們先喊一下保留我們等一下跟學特斯休息時間討論一下好我們覺得還是要訂定執法因為好就這樣我不要浪費大家時間謝謝"},{"start":7611.462,"end":7611.662,"text":"第10條等了一年四個月"},{"start":7621.038,"end":7647.502,"text":"教育部的版本就是增加這第10條好大家重中之重大家看清楚了好不好等一下先讓我宣佈一下第10條目前有范雲委員科之恩委員陳培宇委員羅廷偉委員來的提案來我們看第10條有關於大家最關切的到底是我們專任輔導老師可以增加多少我還是強調一年四個月就是等這一條羅廷偉委員"},{"start":7651.223,"end":7680.262,"text":"好第四條建議提升專任輔導老師的編制應提升編制至國小20班、國中12班、高中值10班至1人方符合教育的一個現場我的理由本條所修正的編制班級數為我國教行動聯盟之建議國中小的部分與院板一致院板的高中維持現行條文國中小的部分與院板一致院板的高中維持現行的一個條文這以上是我的建議"},{"start":7685.476,"end":7714.747,"text":"還有呢?來,林宜瑾委員我是認同這個專任的輔導教師的比例應該要以盡最高的努力照顧學生當作這個最高指導員者來修法那畢竟學生在校的發展是重要的人生成長的關鍵所以不能讓這個人力的缺口變成無法接觸這個某幾位學生的遺憾"},{"start":7715.447,"end":7743.179,"text":"那原本在上週的體會討論版本是希望不要動員而建議維持這個現行條文後來院版出來那國小的部分看起來是從24班以下制1人改成20班以下制1人那國中也從15班條下為12班那我認為說國小的部分雖然跟范委員跟柯昭偉的版本還是有一些落差但也算是有跨出了一步所以我是認為說還是"},{"start":7744.74,"end":7747.564,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":7764.489,"end":7790.256,"text":"我想問一下就是那個現行的是個師資端的一個培育那從之前其實我質詢的時候那時候我有提到就是教育部核定大專院校師資的培育的原額其實連續都有提高但是問題是他們的錄取率是連年下滑那這個師資的來源是不是不夠會不會不夠那怎麼樣去確保這個輔導的一個品質那有沒有可能在這個原額上做一些調整"},{"start":7793.197,"end":7817.413,"text":"接下來吳佩儀委員這一條大家最期待希望看到的就是可以降低這個師生比然後可以讓輔導老師的負擔可以降低可以充足來輔導我們的個案但是現在我們是這個調整的數字是否是充足的我打一個問號第一個是說因為教育部現在是以班級數來看嘛但我們在教學現場很多是他如果額滿學校"},{"start":7818.254,"end":7818.454,"text":"兩、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":7840.171,"end":7842.332,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":7871.353,"end":7887.26,"text":"針對這一條,依現行的條文的輔導教師配置,教育部是規劃說到120學年度的國小專任輔導教師全面配置完成。現在要提早到116學年度要提早到位。教育部這邊有預計說116學年度要增聘2088位的專輔教師。"},{"start":7893.783,"end":7894.283,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案〉"},{"start":7922.671,"end":7931.879,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。netesi, 教育部也應該要評估說在後續討論專輔人力增加的情況之下校園裡面是不是確實有增聘專任教育部也應該要評估說在後續討論專輔人力增加的情況之下"},{"start":7950.555,"end":7951.155,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":7973.072,"end":7973.212,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":7992.862,"end":8021.335,"text":"我想這一條我跟大家的意見都一致方向當然就是希望能夠增加越多的輔導教師員的越好那教育部的院板這邊當然已經有進步了國中部分達到理想配置那而且也是這樣可以讓現行的規劃提前到位嘛但是高中跟國小跟民間的期待還是有很大的落差啦國小雖然進步了那但是我的版本已經沒有"},{"start":8021.935,"end":8023.036,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8039.082,"end":8048.407,"text":"但教育部是不是可以再努力看看再去爭取因為這邊我們還是希望能夠更好那另外我還有一個意見就是跟人數這個不一樣的就是專業的團體跟我反映說應該配套就是如同前面那一條就是增訂輔導主任主管時由專業人員優先任用那在我們這條應該增訂一個兼任行政時應補足應聘員額"},{"start":8066.678,"end":8067.178,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":8086.866,"end":8115.758,"text":"但她去兼任這個工作之後其實學校在能夠做輔導的人力就會下降所以是不是可以在這個情況下補聘一位專任的輔導教師那上次我在跟部長詢答的時候那部長有表達說專輔人員跟行政職是兩回事原本就有獨立的員額那兼任的時候員額本來就應該補足所以依照部長的這個回應教育部是不是可以說明一下"},{"start":8116.218,"end":8117.259,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":8131.015,"end":8131.776,"text":"我當然知道比2088還要再增加10648億多真的如果可以有這麼多"},{"start":8159.736,"end":8159.936,"text":"陳佩玉委員"},{"start":8177.591,"end":8203.872,"text":"好 謝謝主席那目前我覺得這個人數的部分確實要請教育部回覆那另外一個我也蠻好奇的就是教育部到底要如何逐年增加這件事情我們談的是逐年增加那逐年增加方法目前教育部的規劃我覺得是所有第一線的老師跟所有關心這個議題的人都很在意的事情那還有就是目前現場需求跟可運用的人力是不是教育部都有確切的掌握"},{"start":8204.592,"end":8221.383,"text":"還有我覺得更重要更重要的是人員的品質這件事情因為剛剛向范委員在前面的條文也有提到關於這個專業時數的問題或是如何確保相關的專業可以服務到每個需求的學生我覺得這也是在人數以外大家會更關心的部分 謝謝好 教育部要不要統一委員問題非常的多因為這個蠻重要的好 那其實"},{"start":8236.499,"end":8262.534,"text":"跟主席還有委員報告那在這個學生輔導法修法的這個歷程裡我們之前在120年國小120學年度國小部分提前到116學年度到位這個部分是我們跟國教署還有學特司一直在努力能夠補足的但是也聽到現場的聲音就是很多輔導的工作那又於人力往往會"},{"start":8263.474,"end":8264.435,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8293.194,"end":8293.715,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8309.232,"end":8311.335,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案"},{"start":8327.475,"end":8329.416,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":8356.843,"end":8358.604,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":8382.654,"end":8393.99,"text":"如果他兼任行政的話,因為行政的缺,他有的時候是不固定的,所以因此在這個部分可能也要考量實際上的一個運作。那師之司的部分先做以上的報告。"},{"start":8395.629,"end":8414.39,"text":"我同意,我自己是師資培育第一線的工作者,現在我們是要提高人力,不過我還是要希望能夠教育部未來在師資培育這一塊可能要同步。目前在很多南部有很多有教師證的人,他要額外再去修輔導學分,其實是很多學校是不願意開的。"},{"start":8415.211,"end":8415.371,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8432.948,"end":8457.675,"text":"來吧,各位,還有陳佩玉委員。好,謝謝主席。謝謝剛剛教育部的回答。我真的是不應該問這個細節,可是我剛剛聽到讓我頭皮發麻的部分,所以我真的要積極提醒教育部。剛剛你的回答裡面說,適量執憂、多元人力。你提到失陪的部分有小教跟中教,這個我可以理解。你提到公費生我也可以理解,可是公費生的困境我相信教育部比我還清楚。"},{"start":8458.235,"end":8483.926,"text":"有非常多公費生到了偏鄉去他們寧可賠錢他們也要跑掉而如果輔導教師又面臨這個狀況教育部有沒有什麼加碼或者是鼓勵的機制甚至是提升公費生願意留在偏鄉的意願我相信你們應該要有更積極的配套再來你剛剛說進修學分班的部分其實剛剛范雲也有關心關於所謂這種進修學分到底你們目前專業的規劃"},{"start":8485.306,"end":8495.47,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔"},{"start":8508.456,"end":8531.442,"text":"你希望幫他增加學分然後讓他去教小學生做小學部分的專任輔導教師請問你的意思是這樣嗎?如果是的話我要提醒這個中間應該有很多的專業上的落差如果你們認為你們設計的課程可以補足這個專業的落差那也請你們有沒有機會在今天做說明還是那只是"},{"start":8532.282,"end":8534.023,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8562.995,"end":8565.017,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":8583.097,"end":8585.658,"text":"：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案‧一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8605.983,"end":8633.577,"text":"雖然每個委員有不同的版本有不同的班級數有不同的一個看法然後也不同的concern特別是在師資培育的這個層面但是我們就針對整個條文部分裡面對於教育部目前為止國小的部分是20班從24變成20然後國中目前從15變成12因為我們都認為國中是非常需要的然後高級中學也是12那高級中學其實基本上是沒有什麼修正嘛然後其他這個部分大家對第10條"},{"start":8635.118,"end":8659.152,"text":"條文上面有沒有其他意見?沒有的話,哇,我們就通過。對,還是一句話,我們這邊距離行政院只有6分鐘。這個條文,第10條等了一年四個月。好,就這樣子,很重要。來,接下來有個也是非常重要的,就是第11條好不好?就是不好意思,我再補充,我剛剛所有那些提醒,因為教育部沒有回應,那我是不是可以做一個"},{"start":8660.673,"end":8673.443,"text":"副代決議請教育部做出相關的研究跟規劃跟承諾。就是那個行政。抱歉我有個修正動議好像被漏掉了。就是後面加一句逗號堅韌行政時應補足應聘員額。教育部的意見。"},{"start":8688.439,"end":8703.187,"text":"這一塊等一下可能也請國教署就實務的部分補充啦我先說因為高中的主任輔導教師一定是專任輔導老師來當的絕對沒問題那國中小剛才提到因為國教法只有講大家需要輔導熱誠及專業之能看起來沒有那麼明確"},{"start":8707.529,"end":8722.937,"text":"那可是先說一下因為這些主管通常國中小都是由教師兼任的那他以什麼身份去兼任這個主任很重要如果他是以專任輔導老師去兼這個主任的身份他的行政工作可能會佔掉他一大半的力量"},{"start":8723.877,"end":8724.538,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":8739.771,"end":8756.228,"text":"國中輔導活動科的老師去兼,他會檢授課,他的課務自然會有兼待課老師來處理他課務的問題,這可以兼顧。國小的部分確實都調整為一班老師再來兼主任,把專任輔導教室的缺騰出來,聘專任輔導老師。"},{"start":8763.24,"end":8781.338,"text":"范委員的意思是一樣但是這條條文如果入法的話執行上可能會因為他的缺他不是懸缺我就不懂那如果實質上這樣子精神是可以的為什麼不能把這個兼任行政時應補足應聘員額放進去這樣就罪有保障啊"},{"start":8782.441,"end":8804.497,"text":"范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件 替代委員 林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 替代委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 替代委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 替代委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 替代委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 替代委員林宜瑾等19"},{"start":8806.03,"end":8806.551,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8824.537,"end":8850.416,"text":"以後 以由這些專業資格的這種能力的來優先擔任主任所以配合整套剛剛已經講的那個我們來模擬一下這件事情可能的情況剛剛吳司長的意思是說這裡面如果按照這個法制他六班被配一個這個是依照這一次修的配一個那這配一個"},{"start":8851.752,"end":8852.533,"text":"但是今天委員又提了"},{"start":8869.853,"end":8870.754,"text":"所以我們在第12條那邊"},{"start":8891.67,"end":8906.449,"text":"就有一個細節說如果未來我們再訂這些三級也好學校輔導老師的工作包含案量或是剛才委員所提的有一些這種碰到小校"},{"start":8907.622,"end":8909.982,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件事宜》案件事宜"},{"start":8931.647,"end":8932.948,"text":"兩、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8949.441,"end":8963.754,"text":"讓他在相關的代理代課上可以做處理可是你直接處理到原額可能在整體的射算上就已經拖曳了大家的那個規範了這邊我表達一下因為你剛舉的例子是6班聽起來就會覺得就是你剛說的很合理喔那我們現在如果舉的是18班或是18班的狀態的話那個想像起來就會非常的不一樣你不去補足的話就蠻不合理的"},{"start":8977.145,"end":9001.957,"text":"所以當然就是說最後要不要用執法來規範我也不反對但我希望因為等一下我還沒有講完我是希望這個先保留啦因為我們再好好的討論一下你要執法要怎麼定好嗎確定之後我們才能夠放掉否則我原則上還是希望放在條文中比較好好不好所以我們要為這個條文保留嗎我是要保留可是這個實務上面的人力上面裡面這可能"},{"start":9003.988,"end":9004.608,"text":"七條之一要保留嗎?"},{"start":9025.77,"end":9042.225,"text":"范委員你剛剛講的保留齁因為我剛剛聽到署長講一句話我又更害怕所以我想要呼應范委員的保留署長您剛剛說還是我可能是我聽錯齁因為麥克風可能擴音的效果您剛剛說用一般的教師去當主任、主長就不會有專輔人員不足的問題"},{"start":9044.36,"end":9051.243,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件中有提出一項法律法律法律在食物上落實或是運作上可能真的他們會去運用它依據這一次修的規定所以范委員所提的這一個是的確未來在現場會發生的"},{"start":9074.071,"end":9075.852,"text":"范雲等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件》案"},{"start":9097.944,"end":9104.109,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件,並且繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件,並且繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":9119.298,"end":9129.906,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草"},{"start":9147.558,"end":9148.439,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":9166.61,"end":9166.99,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":9184.446,"end":9201.042,"text":"等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案»案。厲不厲害?我們第十條你知道為什麼第十條我就很害怕就是說好不容易等了這麼久可以看到這個大家都還可以接受一保留哇塞夜長夢多我們就是第十條裡面我們就保留好不好"},{"start":9202.363,"end":9206.285,"text":"范雲等21人擬具林宜瑾等21人擬具張雅琳等21人擬具李博毅等21人擬具黃秀芳等21人擬具許智傑等21人擬具柯珍等21人擬具陳培宇等21人擬具"},{"start":9218.011,"end":9234.19,"text":"陳培義委員、我看侯孟凱委員、陳秀寶委員、郭玉琴委員、葛如君委員、郭國文委員、臺灣民眾黨、吳佩奕委員、王玉敏委員、萬美玲委員、羅志強委員、陳清輝委員、莊瑞璇委員、林月琴委員、萬美玲委員、林俊憲委員、羅廷慧委員、廖偉祥委員。"},{"start":9237.509,"end":9266.14,"text":"還有這個我們所謂的修正都議裡面羅廷偉委員還有附帶決議是范雲委員跟郭育晴委員第11條我們第10條非常重要來哪一位我們先看一下許智傑委員然後民眾黨然後我們再下來陳清惠委員我們是讓第一次發言的委員先發言好不好陳清惠委員關於陳秀寶委員郭育晴委員張雅琳委員陳佩玉委員林宜瑾委員葛如居委員"},{"start":9267.247,"end":9267.427,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":9283.274,"end":9307.068,"text":"其實這個學生輔導法我們在2014年的時候那個時候我當教育的早尾那也通過了2400變成1200然後呢我要請教育部特別注意一下2017年的時候有老師跟我反應說我們定了1200了但是還是很多學校沒有遵守"},{"start":9308.431,"end":9325.198,"text":"所以那時候的數據是這樣有43所沒有達到2400比1還保留在沒有達到2400比1那還有100多所要講1200比1根本就沒有做到"},{"start":9326.238,"end":9328.901,"text":"徐志偉,你剛剛講的是大專院校,我們現在先傳到是高中以下。"},{"start":9345.436,"end":9346.677,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案》案"},{"start":9366.428,"end":9370.549,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":9394.842,"end":9406.785,"text":"大家好這次學生輔導法的整個立法的目的都是因為現在對於學生自殺的通報急劇的增加還有現在學校的"},{"start":9412.327,"end":9412.507,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":9428.084,"end":9441.634,"text":"所以我在這裡主要是要表達臺灣民眾黨對於這個法的修法這個非常的重視那也看到大家這個各個版本的提出我們都支持這個從優"},{"start":9444.796,"end":9453.961,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9470.655,"end":9479.319,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員"},{"start":9499.81,"end":9521.589,"text":"現在是陳秀寶委員,過來是郭育晴,過來是陳清輝,剛剛舉手的次序好不好?謝謝主席,這11條就是各級學校的專輔人力是這次修法的重點。教育部在今年初有先行透過調整補助經費的方式使大專校院的專輔人力配置從1比1200條到1比900。"},{"start":9523.971,"end":9540.806,"text":"所以說大專校院的專訪人力不足的問題暫時有得到緩解那接下來重點就是高中以下學校的部分現行的規定是55班以上學校至少配置一人那高中以下學校主管機關首席啊高中以下學校數20校以下的配置一員但是"},{"start":9542.444,"end":9569.452,"text":"以這樣子的人力配置來講真的是造成我們許多的專輔人力他會有點就是他的負擔會比較大因為20校的配置的話一個專輔人員負責是兩到三個鄉鎮那本席這邊提案是調整為40班以上的學校配置一人那15校以下配置一位16至30校配置兩位31校以上以此類推那這個部分如果說我們調降到15校以下的話"},{"start":9570.812,"end":9571.993,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":9586.707,"end":9587.047,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":9607.614,"end":9631.562,"text":"因為按照教育部的版本你們預計是增加136到192位專輔人員那這個總經費大概是需要到1.6億餘元那這個部分是不是已經有成功的鄉行政院這邊來爭取的那專輔人員的補足你們是會一次到位還是預計在哪個學年度之前是慢慢補足那在專輔人力補足之前有沒有什麼過渡計畫來協助目前的專輔人力補足的問題以上"},{"start":9636.766,"end":9638.548,"text":"范雲等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案"},{"start":9658.809,"end":9659.249,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":9677.324,"end":9677.684,"text":"李慧琼等22人擬具"},{"start":9707.704,"end":9734.958,"text":"資源跟配置還有專業度的部分這個可能要重新再做一些考量我其實蠻echo這個郭委員的因為你看很多服務員我們太多太多的例子了光是高雄從鳳山到那馬下我們來回四個小時然後呢就是像你說台東嘉義非常多一個人都要負責兩三個鄉鎮以上光是來回那個交通的時間我說實在跟一般來說就要鄰近學校真的是完全是不一樣的所以我覺得偏遠地區的這個學校"},{"start":9737.299,"end":9741.342,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件事項》案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項"},{"start":9766.158,"end":9767.94,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案"},{"start":9782.694,"end":9797.4,"text":"有看到後面有修正1比1200變1比900這個非常肯定因為根據其他國家比如說美國的1比1000澳洲的1比850我想這個方向是正確的因為一位專府人一年服務576個小時"},{"start":9799.301,"end":9828.626,"text":"如果用國建署統計目前台灣國人8.9%罹患中重度的憂鬱症來計算的話這樣子是合理的不過也有發現許多委員都希望可以下降到15校以下不過這邊我們的教育部版本還是維持在20校我很希望等一下是不是大家可以一同討論我們再看是不是可以把20校調整到15校這樣子的比例謝謝好 謝謝然後葛如居委員"},{"start":9830.241,"end":9833.964,"text":"教育部曾跟我們回覆說恐怕無力負擔"},{"start":9850.797,"end":9862.17,"text":"但是呢我們認為這個本席和其他委員的版本內容這個財務有困難我覺得是有一點這個推脫了嫌疑為什麼因為相較於執政黨面對的其他的議題比如說千億去補助這個電力台電的虧損"},{"start":9869.958,"end":9870.959,"text":"六、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":9895.333,"end":9896.354,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":9912.592,"end":9932.419,"text":"陳力等19人擬具我們不希望我們在這個委員會裡面尊重我們孩子的身心健康希望能夠有更足夠的人數來協助他們我們不要在這裡出了委員會以後結果反而我們的這個健康台灣的委員會"},{"start":9933.379,"end":9957.848,"text":"反而認為應該要花這6億那我覺得有這樣的一個漢格都不是我們希望的因為這個委員會有說要促進和維護身心學生身心健康和全人發展所以表示這個議題的重要性是非常重要的而且不限於一個大健康的議題影響層面非常大希望教育部能夠再進一步的思考參採我們很多委員們的版本來做這樣的一個輔助"},{"start":9960.889,"end":9972.276,"text":"同時也提一下我們有針對人力的這個部分來做這個附帶決議希望能夠面對供給端的工作人員負擔過重的問題也希望用附帶決議的方式請教育部兩個月內了解國內外科技導入學生輔導工作的現況和發展"},{"start":9982.563,"end":10008.855,"text":"原因是我們在質詢的過程以及與教育部交流的過程我們都發現其實國內外已經有非常多導入數位科技導入甚至AI科技來做學生輔導的一些實例所以我們希望能夠用附帶決議的方式來提醒希望教育部能夠在兩個月內進一步研議以科技導入學生輔導工作的可行性和規劃本席也接獲學生團體的陳情"},{"start":10010.436,"end":10028.668,"text":"希望教育部研議高中以下的學校線上預約心理輔導的機制因為高中的校區相對的非常稠密所以學生進行新輔的申請的時候會被所有的同學、被所有的老師"},{"start":10030.029,"end":10035.493,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案»案。adequate to the program."},{"start":10051.883,"end":10067.199,"text":"共同了解實務需求並延伸後續因應,這個兩個部分導入科技的部分我們是用附帶決議的方式提出,謝謝。好,謝謝我們接下來陳培鈺委員,然後范雲委員之後是張雅琳委員,喔,對不起還有吳培鈺委員。"},{"start":10068.814,"end":10091.013,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要講一個比較先從一個比較困難的好了麻煩教育部等一下一併回應關於學生基數的部分目前你們有兩種寫法嘛那我想要請你們說明一下第一項第一款跟第二款之間的關係到底是什麼是擇以使用還是併用那偏鄉條例的部分你們是獨自計算嗎還是有什麼別的算法"},{"start":10091.733,"end":10117.187,"text":"另外4500到5000的比例是怎麼算出來的我覺得還是要有些說明你們希望能夠多補20%到30%的人力又是如何計算出來的目前我們認為行政院或者是之前院會提出來的版本是20校可是其實如果根據我們的算法我們算過如果有機會從20校降到15校其實只需要增加到58人另外學生總數基數我們也認為應該穩定低於4500"},{"start":10120.149,"end":10138.399,"text":"目前大專是一比九百可是目前的版本你們給我們的版本四千五到五千我覺得這個狀況還是看不是很清楚還是要請教一部說明那另外有一個部分我覺得有點複雜的是在最先就是之前的原本版現行版現行版當中"},{"start":10139.079,"end":10139.479,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":10164.161,"end":10164.801,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":10184.79,"end":10211.781,"text":"我自己認為如果在這些大校裡面學校有機會保留固定的專輔人員其實比較可以穩定的協助學校處理處遇性輔導階段的問題那不然如果都要等到輔資中心統籌調派可能會緩不濟急程序也會比較長那這個部分我知道院會版或體會版都已經拿掉可是我還是希望教育部在這件事上有一些說明那主席因為我有十一之一的提案我要一併說明嗎"},{"start":10213.968,"end":10228.836,"text":"我們先等一下好了好不好因為這第11條已經太多太多人提出來了不過我先確定一下因為剛剛聽到陳佩玉委員講我要請國教署先確定一下對不起那個偏鄉條例我們額外有212位輔導人員這完全是不含在裡面嗎"},{"start":10229.716,"end":10250.254,"text":"百分之百確定那培育委員的外加嘛這212完全不是嘛所以你這個部分已經完全確定了嘛我剛剛也echo他剛剛所提到的這個15校說實在你算算的不過增加58人而已好不好你要不要考慮一下20班降到15也啊對不起啊20校降到15校算起來精準的算法也不過少了58人"},{"start":10251.195,"end":10251.815,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":10275.902,"end":10303.151,"text":"但我要回應剛剛陳培委員剛剛他所講那個是在我們討論的五十五二十校怎麼樣額外的我們不能拿那個大專院校一比一千二一比五百然後突然一比九百然後突然之間變成一比四千五這樣會引引發困擾沒有那個是在校完之後你每增加四千五百人你會再額外再配置一個教育部的前提要先說好我先幫你做解釋好不好但是你可不可以考慮一下四千五百人以下不要做浮動性的這是可不可以考慮一下這個東西會比較讓大家會放心一點啦哈"},{"start":10305.632,"end":10311.277,"text":"范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":10320.855,"end":10329.122,"text":"范雲委員、張雅琳委員、吳佩儀委員15校的部分我跟他們幾位的意見一樣希望教育部可以考慮一下另外關於大校的駐校專輔人員的規定我這邊的版本也是希望保留"},{"start":10344.975,"end":10367.141,"text":"而且這件事情還影響蠻大的那教育部因為之前溝通的時候有了解教育部的講法那現在的情況就是說教育部希望全部改制到縣市輔資中心那主要就是希望這樣統一調派比較好那教育部提到是說直轄市希望會這樣子但是專業團體對這個蠻憂慮的第一個他已經是大笑了嘛"},{"start":10371.202,"end":10371.383,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":10386.135,"end":10386.696,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":10407.136,"end":10408.196,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":10424.983,"end":10425.503,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":10454.789,"end":10483.152,"text":"另外關於就是剛剛大家講到人力的部分那很多團體也會擔憂如果依照教育部目前的版本的話那大校專輔人員又被移除那縣市輔資中心的比例也沒有調整那4500比1到5000比1的比例也比目前估算的現行是4400比1嘛那這樣子就沒有變得更好啊那如果我們這次修法這個部分沒有更好的話"},{"start":10483.832,"end":10498.409,"text":"那這樣子會讓外界很失望了那教育部之前針對我的版本估算說要再多增加233人那教育部自己維持現行條文的話你本來就要增加136到192"},{"start":10501.292,"end":10522.399,"text":"所以差距是40幾人所以教育部是不是可以說明一下能不能夠再往我們委員的版本邁進那如果院版的就是說算出來的人力就是沒有比現況4400比1更好的話那我真的是希望教育部再回去跟院爭取好嗎就是說這個部分"},{"start":10522.879,"end":10549.414,"text":"最後一題是關於那個第二項,第二項增訂的規定那看起來是要有特殊的情況經核定才有外加最多6%的人力那教育部給我的說明是說都會外加6%以這個方式配置可以再增加23.41%或33.05%的人力那狀況到底是怎麼樣那如果都會外加6%那你為什麼要訂這個條文我就有點不懂了以上請說明謝謝"},{"start":10550.802,"end":10566.929,"text":"好,接下來我們請吳佩儀委員或還是林宜瑾委員這一條在專科以上專輔委員跟學生的比從1200條降到900這個是我跟很多委員都有提案的版本這一個我要給予肯定跟支持但是有關於我們剛剛討論到高中以下"},{"start":10567.469,"end":10568.489,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":10597.737,"end":10615.268,"text":"謝主席,我想這一條涉及這個專任的專輔人員的人力比這是真的是這個法的重中之重那我想本期的版本是希望說在高級中等以下學校班級數在40班以上要設置專業輔導人員一人"},{"start":10617.509,"end":10618.01,"text":"兩、繼續審查委員兩、繼續審查委員兩、繼續審查委員兩、繼續審查委員"},{"start":10645.413,"end":10668.65,"text":"我想本席會這樣的訂定當然我主要是參與這個學校衛生法的規定每40班以上應至少治營養師一人學校護理人員每校之一人那我想這個就是考量到身體啊心理的健康都是全人發展的重要環節輔導人力也務必要這樣子相對的足夠因應"},{"start":10669.631,"end":10698.573,"text":"所以本席認為專輔人員的設置也可以就是參照學校衛生法的設置方式來辦理那我看院版當然很多人提到學生總數4500人到5000人的基數下去算專輔人員的數量立法說明是寫說這是依據實務需求來算那我就納悶說實務需求到底是什麼那數字是怎麼來的這個邀請教務部等等要想明一下對"},{"start":10701.937,"end":10703.638,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10724.824,"end":10751.078,"text":"我也是依據學校衛生法把原本55人應設置專業輔導人力的呢變成是40班以上應設置一人那同時呢我也非常感謝院板我就看到已經刪除義務輔導人員的這些文字可以去避免說義務輔導人員去取代應聘的員額產生一些模糊空間那同時在應聘員額之外呢可以是需求設定兼任的專業輔導人力並且規定專任"},{"start":10754.66,"end":10763.208,"text":"接任專業輔導人力所需的經費納入第四項由中央主管機關來補助這是在我的條文增加的部分那也希望可以把它納入謝謝"},{"start":10769.926,"end":10785.233,"text":"我先請要說明,然後等一下請郭教授補充。第一個,我們把55班以上社專輔一人的這個規定拿掉,以及我們設計了一個按照學生總數4500到"},{"start":10787.754,"end":10795.478,"text":"五、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案»案。neteso規由縣市的輔資中醫統籌調度處理,一樣可以依照學校的需求派駐區域就近來服務學校。"},{"start":10813.908,"end":10838.735,"text":"四千五到五千人設置他當然一開始一定就是用四千五去設算配置足夠的人力但他隨著學生總數逐年減少他一定要降到五千比一以下才會有涉及到需要調整減少聘用人數如果我們還是定用四千五單一的人數那接下來就是每年會減少人員"},{"start":10839.195,"end":10866.778,"text":"因為學生人數往下掉的關係我不曉得各位這樣說明各位清楚嗎所以他是為了減少少子化逐年減少班級減少人數所帶來的衝擊那第二個部分把55班以上住校的部分取消還有一個很大的原因是因為55班以上的學校他也只能聘用一人那一人可能是心理師也有可能是社工師但學校學生的輔導需求有一些可能是需要心理師有一些可能是需要社工師所以"},{"start":10868.459,"end":10870.46,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案》案。"},{"start":10890.775,"end":10912.663,"text":"十六個縣市來講有14個縣市收回來統籌。為什麼統籌?因為統籌在人力調度上是確實在資源運用上是更好更便利的。這是可以提供大家參考。然後我也說明一下以現行的第11條的用人來說總計不管是55班以上加上每20校設一人總計機用的人數是581位。"},{"start":10915.044,"end":10936.688,"text":"這一塊剛才大家有提到那個偏鄉地區學校教育發展條例以偏鄉地區國中學區為範圍至少設一人的221個抱歉這完全獨立分開計算的所以單純以醫學生輔導法的規定來講是581個如果依照提院會通過的版本來講它會總數會增加到773人換句話說多33%左右"},{"start":10943.595,"end":10946.399,"text":"對總是這192個然後我也說明一下以現行的581人來服務將近234萬的學生來說他大概是4000比1左右採院板之後"},{"start":10958.479,"end":10961.301,"text":"提高了大概192個人提高了33%最後可以把服務的人數從4000人降低為3000人其實已經可以有效的減輕專府人力的一個負擔"},{"start":10979.231,"end":11006.857,"text":"當然很多委員提案建議是要把55班住校調降為40班以及把每20班每20校設1人改為15校設1人這也可以大量增加專輔人力那我們也算過了這樣增加的人數會總數會達到1006人相對於現行學校來現狀況來人數會增加400多位400多位服務學生的人數可以在"},{"start":11007.717,"end":11035.491,"text":"更進一步降到大概2300比1那我想如果可以有更充裕的經費當然可以應用更充裕的人力可以減輕的幅度就更大不過這一塊因為涉及到人力的禁用以及預算的籌措的問題因為在院版已經而且是上週是在剛通過的情況之下我想要再做更大幅度調整恐怕要透過後續協商來處理而不是審查委員會直接做決定以上報告"},{"start":11036.796,"end":11037.436,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":11054.446,"end":11073.19,"text":"我剛剛特別提到很多的縣市是非常狹長的那個真的是你如果你知道這個二學校的話通常一個人帶只能走三個學校你到15校只要走兩個學校很多學校是彼此之間是距離是非常遙遠的而且最重要的是大家都已經考量到財務的一個分配所以我才說加到15校你也不過增加58人這其實相對而言是比較容易達到的在這一塊有沒有可能剛剛司長講了一堆啦但是我們講一個比較簡單的"},{"start":11083.772,"end":11086.954,"text":"立法院第11會期教育及文化委員立法院第11會期教育及文化委員立法院第11會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":11112.153,"end":11137.945,"text":"那在第11條部分部長還有司長、次長這個15項的這個層面大家是非常的堅持大家其實是認為是可以做到的可以在這個地方先做一些解決我補充一下第11條的第三項抱歉第二項增加了主管中央主管機關可以按照前兩者的總數"},{"start":11139.266,"end":11144.549,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事"},{"start":11163.499,"end":11190.468,"text":"再加依照4000到5000再增進人力然後再加6%給中央主管機關依照學校的負荷按量跟區域去調控基本上他已經有考慮到增加人力的輔助大概就是30%左右但是這樣考慮所以我們現在如果在每20校設議人的部分再調降為15校設議人這個人數就是再疊加上去那其實單純考量因素真的就是"},{"start":11192.73,"end":11193.271,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":11205.985,"end":11228.858,"text":"司長所以我再次跟您確定一下根據你剛剛的算法提會討論版目前應該會增加773人二十校的部分會增加200人四千五百的基數會增加530人六趴的部分會增加43人目前我的記錄是對的嗎?剛才講提會版本的部分不是增加773而是總數773總數773那733增加了233"},{"start":11234.641,"end":11247.966,"text":"對總數773但是20校的部分如果算下去會多增加200人對不對對然後4500人的基數的話會增加530個人是總數不是增加總數OK好那偏鄉條例你剛剛說是額外的嘛對不對再加221人所以合計會是994人對嘛好謝謝"},{"start":11260.01,"end":11260.15,"text":"范雲委員范雲委員"},{"start":11277.631,"end":11278.472,"text":"我還是沒有被說服以上"},{"start":11303.224,"end":11329.799,"text":"第三項我們後面已經有徵收文字了第三項後面有講得委由所設學生輔助中心所在學校或責定之學校聘用師意思就是說我舉例嘛像台北新北他們的總數很多啊他那個住校的部分不收回來對他講反而是減輕行政管理人力啊他會很樂於就派住在學校可是這個統籌的權利應該還是在主管機關嘛可是"},{"start":11332.247,"end":11338.63,"text":"第三項由主管機關責定學校來批用資,它是有這個處理空間的。我剛才也講16個一般縣市政府的部分,有14個學校沒有住校。我先說,原本55班以上應該要住校的,它實際上沒有住校,為什麼沒有住校?因為人力很吃緊,它當然至少抽回來統籌運用,可是學校會抱怨,這個人是我的人,"},{"start":11358.061,"end":11367.004,"text":"雖然說法令規定你可以統統調度可是你幫我收走我就沒辦法就近協助我學校啊那我們現在這樣修其實是符合多數縣市政府的期待司長 這個好像跟我所理解的有一些落差不過我想第11條目前為止大家都還是會卡在還是希望能夠增加更多的人力是不是本席認為這一條我們先保留好不好"},{"start":11385.461,"end":11395.591,"text":"范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審"},{"start":11408.106,"end":11426.432,"text":"但寫商的時候我們還是會堅持15校這個版本好我們第11條就先保留好不好然後呢我們是不是先處理完11條之一我們就暫時做一個休息11條之一目前為止來11條之一我先說一下對怎麼樣你要補充啊"},{"start":11431.125,"end":11451.245,"text":"主席,謝謝你。剛才我在11條這個發言我有提到說說如果以提會討論的版本來講那個教育部這邊的看法是說他們要增加192人那這個部分呢經費大概會需要1.6億那時候我有問說那你們有沒有已經跟行政院爭取到這筆預算那你們有回答到我謝謝"},{"start":11457.714,"end":11476.787,"text":"先說因為國小的輔導人力都大部分八到九成經費是有中央補助的啦所以國教署應該在114年度的預算籌編已經有納入需求了那後續因為還在行政院的程序還在處理當中嘛對好 秀報委員同意來我們接下來是不是先處理11條之一我們11條暫時保留11條之一"},{"start":11488.032,"end":11503.9,"text":"目前為止我們11條之一有范雲委員、林宜瑾委員、張雅琳委員、柯珍委員、陳培宇委員、郭國王委員、林俊憲委員。陳培宇委員好謝謝主席那我想專業督導的部分跟重要性"},{"start":11504.48,"end":11518.191,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員張"},{"start":11529.199,"end":11537.801,"text":"當然我們已經有先提出一個附帶決議所以我還是想要先聽一下教育部在這個部分的回應我們在決定附帶決議的部分要怎麼討論謝謝我想這個部分就是希望學校主管機關得救狹內之專業輔導人員每7人至多責任擔任督導人員那如果未滿7人的話得試實際需要責任擔任督導人員"},{"start":11556.305,"end":11556.725,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":11586.01,"end":11609.719,"text":"那看11條怎麼定,然後我們再來一起討論。好,以上。謝謝主席。那11條之一的話,因為它主要是屬於專業督導機制嘛。那專業督導機制對於心理師和社會師的專業能力和培養以及服務品質把關都非常的重要。雖然說高中以下學校及各該主管機關專業輔導人員設置辦法第4條已經有相關規定了啦。"},{"start":11613.661,"end":11637.642,"text":"但是這個辦法在法律體系的位階比本法低而且實際上各縣市的執行情況不一致所以為了讓各縣市教育主管機關重視輔導人員的督導所以我們增加了這個規定那因為剛剛其實我原本是在第7條有提一個再修正動議那當時候是說把這邊併在第11條之一來討論所以待會就請那個司長一起回覆 謝謝好 司長"},{"start":11640.774,"end":11657.905,"text":"我先說,我們現在委員所提的十一條之一的第一項文字跟現在輔導、普遍輔導法的授權執法有一個高中以下學校專業輔導人員的設置辦法條文一模一樣從執法位階提高到法律位階我認為不會解決問題的關鍵在哪裡?關鍵在他用的是德"},{"start":11662.455,"end":11662.895,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":11686.527,"end":11688.85,"text":"委員的建議跟我想法是一樣的,可是我還是建議這條真的不...對,我建議執法裡頭處理,謝謝。"},{"start":11705.895,"end":11708.657,"text":"范雲等19人擬具范雲等19人擬具范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":11736.534,"end":11737.134,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":11764.03,"end":11764.65,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":11789.349,"end":11790.43,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":11802.574,"end":11821.981,"text":"你是用哪一個版本啊?陳培宇的版本是吧?對,就是陳培宇委員的版本。版本,然後把得改成因,把它調出來。前面的得改成因,後面的得改成因。其實大家都是大同小異啦,十一之一好不好,把它調出來,等一下。至多改成至少,嘿。那我想那一塊就是,將來都島的新吃起點跟聽號板都比較高啦,所以將來在補助經費的時候,縣市可能會對於那個經費會有一點點,嗯。對,那從專業上來講這樣做是對的啦。"},{"start":11830.071,"end":11832.238,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":11838.086,"end":11853.311,"text":"本來就是他要以這個為當作最大的一個考量我們先看一下第11條之一高級中等以下學校主管機關應就轄內之專業輔導人員至少每7人選 對不起至少每7人則一人擔任督導人員但轄內之專業輔導人員總數未滿7人者應則一人擔任督導人員"},{"start":11864.315,"end":11866.757,"text":"等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案"},{"start":11887.293,"end":11902.016,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草"},{"start":11903.49,"end":11922.143,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 令 林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 令 林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 令 林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 令 林宜瑾等22人擬具:「"},{"start":11933.37,"end":11934.191,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":11951.434,"end":11952.475,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":11981.774,"end":11983.396,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":17719.835,"end":17719.856,"text":"韋瑞"},{"start":18227.349,"end":18238.983,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":18282.486,"end":18283.067,"text":"二、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":18303.504,"end":18305.647,"text":"等22人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案»案。netesley Chen等22人擬具"},{"start":18318.664,"end":18326.267,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學"},{"start":18347.517,"end":18348.317,"text":"等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":18373.69,"end":18376.971,"text":"等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。netes, let's talk about the 12th question."},{"start":18397.998,"end":18414.391,"text":"第12條,范雲委員、林宜瑾委員、張雅琳委員、黃秀芳委員、柯珍委員、陳培宇委員、陳秀寶委員、葛如軍委員、郭國文委員、還有萬美玲委員、還有羅廷偉委員、還有他的羅廷偉委員的修正動議。好吧,我們針對第12條有沒有委員?"},{"start":18416.713,"end":18436.509,"text":"需要特別來提出來范雲委員跟范雲委員這個主要還是聯動就是說我這個修正動議是依照原本的那個提會版就是說如果沒有刪除註銷專府人員的話那就不應該限縮在主管機關所置專府人員那我的修正動議其實跟這個相關的說明一下那我們還是回到看我們這個條文上面好不好"},{"start":18442.608,"end":18442.908,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":18460.137,"end":18484.439,"text":"十二條好 謝謝主席那個十二條的部分其實我們就是希望就申訴的部分希望明確依照學生的身份不同然後列舉相關適用的法規那也謝謝教育部已經納入你們的題會討論版本那還有就是學校的老師輔導老師專輔人員的職務相關的規範跟整理我覺得在這一次我們也做了比較系統性的整理也謝謝教育部已經納入你們的題會討論版本"},{"start":18486.861,"end":18487.122,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":18505.407,"end":18532,"text":"第三項就是體會版的第三項我們目前第三項是學校主管機關所置專業輔導人員那這個跟第11條確實是連動的如果55班要不要保留要不要留著維持或者是要不要降為40如果住校的還在他就會變成學校及主管機關就差這麼個幾字那我想跟11條是連動的我們可能要連同第11條來做考慮"},{"start":18534.605,"end":18537.926,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":18553.035,"end":18553.495,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":18571.843,"end":18584.807,"text":"兼因視學生需求主動與輔導單位協商,協助介入性及儲遇性輔導措施。高級中等以下學校之輔導教師負責規劃發展性輔導措施,並因連結校內外資源負責執行介入性輔導措施。"},{"start":18591.329,"end":18596.411,"text":"評估轉介處遇性輔導之適切性及協助處遇性輔導之推動。學校主管機關所致專業輔導人員負責執行處遇性輔導並協助發展性及介入性輔導之推動。專科以上學校之教職員執行發展性輔導並因視學生需求主動與輔導單位延伸協助介入性其處遇性輔導措施。"},{"start":18616.88,"end":18619.467,"text":"專業輔導人員負責介入性及處於性輔導並協助發展性輔導去推動高級、中等以下"},{"start":18625.254,"end":18630.059,"text":"來高級中等以下學校教師輔導老師輔導教師專業輔導人員之輔導對象輔導內容分工轉介各行政單位行政支援及其相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商直轄市縣市主管機關定之學生對學校有關其個人之輔導措施認為違法或不當致損害其"},{"start":18648.396,"end":18657.584,"text":"全意之申訴依國民教育法、高級中等教育法、專科學校法、大學法、特殊教育法等相關規定辦理。"},{"start":18668.342,"end":18686.136,"text":"那我們第12條就是因為跟第11條都是聯動的所以我們就保留但是我們希望大家可以理解就是第12條其實沒有太大的問題我們就不要下一次我們在協商的時候如果有委員中途岔出來麻煩各黨的委員自己去自行處理來其他"},{"start":18687.638,"end":18703.475,"text":"接下來我們就是12條之一有張雅琳委員,12條之一張雅琳委員他怎麼樣,他沒有在場,有沒有人要幫他講,沒有的話就司長回應這個內容第5條之一已經定了,一樣的內容一樣的內容,那就把它刪掉了"},{"start":18704.892,"end":18727.168,"text":"好,那我們現在是第14條第14條有范雲委員、林宜瑾委員、張雅琳委員、黃秀芳委員、柯珍委員、陳培宇委員、陳秀寶委員、葛如君委員、郭國文委員、羅志強委員、萬美玲委員、羅廷偉委員跟廖偉祥委員還有我們修正東藝是有羅廷偉委員跟范雲委員好吧,我們根據第14條"},{"start":18739.017,"end":18757.705,"text":"十四條的部分我的版本主要是希望能夠增加輔導教師及專業輔導人員應有專業督導機制其組織、方式、頻率、內容及獎補助之實施辦法由中央主管機關定制因為這題主要是在講"},{"start":18758.365,"end":18760.027,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":18776.546,"end":18801.106,"text":"目前國中小輔導主任我們前面已經討論過主要很多都沒有具備輔導專業的專長加上校長可能本身也沒有輔導專業這樣子會使得整個領導的效果非常有限不利於輔導專業功能的發展現行法規如果我們前面的部分沒有增加的話完全都沒有建立專業督導的制度"},{"start":18802.367,"end":18820.434,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續�"},{"start":18831.579,"end":18831.979,"text":"陳佩玉委員"},{"start":18859.281,"end":18879.488,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我們的部分真的是希望增加現場人員的專業知能那我們其實前面的討論就是大家各自必須要承擔的角色如果都已經很清楚了那在這個角色上所必須要有的專業知能這件事情我覺得從過往以來已經有非常多現場的老師也提出不管是被動的還是主動的"},{"start":18880.768,"end":18907.994,"text":"但是我們當然也要考慮到現場實務工作的繁忙跟複雜所以關於到底哪一個位置的人需要什麼樣程度的專業知能這件事情我們也認為必須依照他們的分工跟他們接觸的學生的樣態而有所不同可以有所變化例如說如果他一直以來都只擔任導師或者是客人老師他可能就只需要最基本的知能他有辦法覺察學生是不是有輔導的需求或是知道有哪些管道可以立刻提供給學生"},{"start":18908.874,"end":18927.427,"text":"但是如果他是主管、輔導主任、校長他因為有相關主管的業務他就必須要知道更多專業知能這件事情所以我們就會給予他比較高的期待他的相關研習時數就必須要增加所以這個部分我們也很感謝教育部會討論版本呼應我們所有人的需求"},{"start":18928.288,"end":18953.519,"text":"但是另外一件事情我覺得講出來可能還是需要花一些時間討論就是在題會版本討論的第四項針對學校人員的職前訓練還有在職進修我們辦公室有希望接受督導的部分那教育部的說法是說好像會剝奪學校人員建立督導機制是有相關複雜的可能性要討論嗎我覺得這個部分我們還是想要聽一下教育部的回應"},{"start":18954.34,"end":18957.607,"text":"其他的部分就沒有問題,謝謝教育部接受我們的建議跟討論,謝謝。好,林宜瑾委員。"},{"start":18962.069,"end":18962.309,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":18991.869,"end":18994.911,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":19009.999,"end":19011.781,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":19025.573,"end":19049.471,"text":"另外就是說督導會提供專輔的教師跟人員在現場的實務的服務建議但接受督導是否屬於在職進修不同單位的認定都不同所以我本席在這個版本上也明定說接受督導屬於在職進修的一個形式大家有一個統一的標準才不會亂了套以上 謝謝"},{"start":19054.276,"end":19055.397,"text":"請教育部做統一的回應。"},{"start":19062.011,"end":19084.086,"text":"專業輔導人員心理施法、社工施法在他們繼續教育的相關執法裡頭對於專業輔導這邊都有詳細的規範而且涉及到他們的患症所以專業輔導人這一塊其實蠻嚴謹而且已經有制度可循但專任輔導老師這一塊確實還沒有那我們在之前討論的時候也談到其實"},{"start":19086.147,"end":19087.088,"text":"五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":19112.009,"end":19138.724,"text":"對對對對對對後面他有講說得以研習工作方教專業學習社群參訪交流後面加上盾號專業督導等方式辦理也就是把專業督導的部分也定性成是屬於職前訓練以及在職進修的一環而且他的時數也納入裡頭做計算而且我們用的是專業督導這不包含行政工作上面的這些事務協調不包含了那用專業督導這樣方式來處理以上建議"},{"start":19140.325,"end":19151.717,"text":"好 謝謝是不是這樣我們看大家看一下條文參訪交流專業督導等但是我個人覺得如果說你要讓他體力看起來好看我覺得專業督導應該放在工作坊後面啦"},{"start":19155.251,"end":19174.567,"text":"對嘛,你看專業,你看工作坊,然後過來是專業督導,然後教室專業社群,然後參訪交流嘛,好不好?你把它放那個地方,可能,可能那個時序上念起來會比較符合,可以齁?好,還有沒有別的?沒有的話我們第14條就是修正通過嘛,好,謝謝!"},{"start":19177.281,"end":19205.512,"text":"那剛好12條之一的話我們就是張雅琳的委員的版本我們就併入5之1條裡面來做處理了好不好我們就在這邊做此宣布然後接下來我們是15條15條是羅志強委員的版本還有廖偉祥的版本來15條你看一下15條教育部有任何的說法嗎想法嗎就是剛才說的因為"},{"start":19209.514,"end":19209.814,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":19231.84,"end":19241.065,"text":"第16條就是陳培宇委員陳培宇委員還有范雲委員提出了附帶決議我們先討論一下好 謝謝主席我們提到輔導空間在實務現場工作過就會發現"},{"start":19248.388,"end":19271.423,"text":"因為過往對於輔導工作專業度的忽視導致於很多學校在設計相關物理空間的時候其實可能就是以主要行政辦公空間為主而沒有比較積極的考量到當學生有個案輔導需求的時候他需要隱密性或者是需要可親近這件事情那我們也還蠻常看到有些情況是孩子們就在走廊上"},{"start":19271.803,"end":19276.124,"text":"一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":19293.169,"end":19322.102,"text":"但是因為相關的這個基準它並沒有讓地方主管機關有督導的空間所以我們還是希望把相關督導的責任跟設置適合學生進行不同層級的輔導所需要的空間這個概念放進來我們甚至還有聽過學校輔導老師告訴我們說當孩子們有需求的時候可是因為那個空間隱密性不夠他們甚至是關在掃具間然後窩一個小小的角落這樣所以我覺得非常非常多的案例的"},{"start":19322.883,"end":19323.163,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":19332.628,"end":19356.173,"text":"我的部分是提一個附帶決議主要是有學生團體跟我反映說很多學校的現場都缺乏一對一的誤談進行輔導工作的空間對這些青少年學生來講的話其實隱私還蠻重要的如果學生被迫在人來人往的教室辦公室進行談話的話其實效果會非常有限甚至抗拒所以我是希望教育部能夠具體修訂"},{"start":19357.173,"end":19384.753,"text":"學校輔導工作場所的設置基準並與地方主管機關會商規劃場地的檢核機制跟改善資源以專輔教師跟專務人有可進行輔導諮商誤談之空間一般教師也需要進行發展性及介入性輔導誤談的專屬空間或者是空間能夠借用的機制為目標讓這樣子的一個空間可以有獨立隱私跟隱蔽性以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":19389.059,"end":19390.98,"text":"司法部長司法部長"},{"start":19415.39,"end":19416.851,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":19438.348,"end":19455.532,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學"},{"start":19469.301,"end":19484.216,"text":"再說范委員的附帶決議因為我委託團隊的那個研究已經快完成了後續我們就會會同國教署跟地方政府來檢討納入所以那個時程可不可以給我們稍微就是配合輔導法的執法要在6個月之內完成訂定嗎"},{"start":19486.758,"end":19503.489,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 及"},{"start":19518.262,"end":19531.63,"text":"我當然知道這個東西要入法對教育部來說會有一些跟地方政府溝通的困難可能還來不及去解決我猜想"},{"start":19532.711,"end":19554.903,"text":"但是其實剛剛范雲委員也說了不管是從學生的角度從學校裡面專業輔導教師的角度或者是我是學校的主管我是校長我是主任我其實我覺得大家都會希望這個事情它是有機會成的就好像我們現在讓學生之前讓15歲到35歲的青年去申請三次的免費心理諮商"},{"start":19555.703,"end":19582.163,"text":"如果我們去到那樣的場合是一個不合格的場合我相信所有人都沒有辦法放心把自己的心事說出來如果我們這一次修學生輔導法希望落實所謂的三級輔導機制甚至我們希望很多事情可以在學校內學生就獲得支持獲得解決獲得協助那一個完整的物理空間一個設置夠好的物理空間絕對是我們要共同努力的目標我相信部長你一定也認同就如同教育部在幾年前"},{"start":19582.824,"end":19594.031,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔"},{"start":19613.364,"end":19642.424,"text":"對於相關場所的設計或是設備其實都是在完整整個學生輔導法很重要的精神否則我們有好的精神我們有好的概念我們甚至把人跟錢都放進去了那我們就缺那個完好的空間回過頭來到最後我們還是要解決空間的問題會不會教育部兩三年後又要設計出一個補助競爭補助型計畫讓學校來寫案子申請重新修善輔導空間我是打一個問號也許那時候來看是美意"},{"start":19643.024,"end":19671.107,"text":"但是我覺得在這次修法的時候我還是要積極的主張提出來這件事情的必要性。謝謝。我想要特別強調的一件事情是設置基準是一定要修的。要訂的更完整一點,包括主管機關對於學校的督導還有後續的改善措施。但實際上訂的、修的基準是不是能確保整個環境就可以朝著好的方向走?"},{"start":19671.767,"end":19674.669,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具．一、繼續審查委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":19695.23,"end":19707.637,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人�"},{"start":19721.365,"end":19730.308,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案》案。adequate, you are in charge."},{"start":19730.308,"end":19741.552,"text":"我懂,我懂司長喔。其實我們辦公室有提附帶決議啦。我當然知道之前在跟司長溝通的時候,確實我們都有一些認知。所以我們也提了附帶決議。那附帶決議的部分可以嗎?司長可以嗎?我們有一個附帶決議。我們辦公室有一個附帶決議。"},{"start":19766.022,"end":19778.146,"text":"我們再回頭討論一下就是到底要不要入法還是就直接在設置的基準辦法當中更確實把它修好我們等一下再來做處理好不好"},{"start":19780.499,"end":19783.421,"text":"等16人擬具第17條第17條的部分也是陳培宇委員所提要不要說明一下"},{"start":19794.257,"end":19801.04,"text":"我的版本其實是把17跟17之一一起來做討論我合在一起喔那原來的學輔法17條這兩項我把它拆成兩條那17之一是原來學輔法17條第二項我在修改"},{"start":19811.423,"end":19831.815,"text":"那我的修改其實是想要加強所謂的專業倫理規範所謂倫理規範這件事情我相信教育部應該懂我的意思我們對於所有專業人員的倫理規範這件事情我覺得在學生輔導這件事情其實是現場很欠缺的我並不是說老師或是所有的專業人員會任意透露學生的資料"},{"start":19832.455,"end":19850.145,"text":"但是因為這件事情它不在大家日常工作的基本概念當中所以我希望在這一次修法當中除了把這個訴求放進來我們可能會因著這個訴求增加相關專業職能的培訓所以我們還是希望寫了17跟17之一那我知道在學生輔導法實行細則第15條裡面有提到"},{"start":19854.68,"end":19868.756,"text":"學生輔導法第17條第二項所稱的專業倫理指的是前項學生輔導工作相關人員按照他的身份或專業別依照教師法、心理師法跟社會工作師法等相關規定所應該遵守的專業倫理規範"},{"start":19870.418,"end":19870.918,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":19899.557,"end":19903.38,"text":"范雲等17人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件"},{"start":19924.678,"end":19926.239,"text":"當時我們針對學生輔導辦公聽會的時候就有學生團體代表表達就是有那個沒有遵守專業倫理的部分"},{"start":19944.506,"end":19945.347,"text":"二、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":19963.388,"end":19966.389,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":19988.058,"end":19989.018,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20010.208,"end":20036.304,"text":"專業輔導人員的心理師或社工師他們的專業倫理以及違反專業倫理可能會衍生的包括譬如說撤銷他的資格等等之類的其實他都會必須要建構在心理師法跟社工師法的相關法規上面其實對於教育系統來講我們很難特別為這一塊單獨另外再定因為要講求的是法律效果因為如果"},{"start":20039.931,"end":20067.77,"text":"啊 輔導教師有類似的問題因為輔導教師就是教師他也是架構在教師法的法的體系底下的規範比如說他如果涉及到獎懲的問題可能就必須要依照教師的成績考的辦法如果是解聘停聘不續聘他就是必須要依照這個教師的解聘辦法去處理而且這一塊在高中以下因為在教師法裡頭都有授權所以有很清楚的執法規範"},{"start":20068.99,"end":20069.471,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":20088.303,"end":20098.664,"text":"學校學生輔導工作人員按其身分別或專業別,依教師法、心理法及社工司法等相關規定遵守了專業倫理規範。原因在此。以上報告。"},{"start":20100.287,"end":20118.376,"text":"因為我們這個輔導工作的倫理是第一守則啦我覺得那個是基本上面就根本上完全是ㄎㄧㄤ在裡面的部分那委員討論一下對於這部的回應是不是一定要把它入法才有辦法確保這個所謂的倫理的原則"},{"start":20120.157,"end":20138.779,"text":"我先說啦我沒有一定啦但是我還是要先謝謝范雲委員剛剛的echo那確實我們的版本的寫法我想要強調一個我想要請大家看一下我的17之一我的寫法裡面呢輔導教師如同司長說的他是教師你認為他會有教師法好"},{"start":20140.06,"end":20160.575,"text":"專業輔導人員如同趙薇說的他是專業輔導人員你認為他有專業的心理倫理輔導主任或組長或者是其他學生輔導工作相關人員應遵守的專業倫理當我們把其他學生輔導工作相關人員拉出來看他就會回到我們前面很多條文裡面提到的學校的教職人員"},{"start":20161.736,"end":20178.371,"text":"未來如果又再加上所謂的學創校安人員他們是不是所謂學生輔導工作相關人員?是喔!他們是喔!可是他們在專業倫理上請問目前有哪一個版本的法或是其他的法可以呼應我們在意的專業倫理?"},{"start":20180.345,"end":20196.442,"text":"所以如果大家覺得其他的也就是輔導教師、專業輔導人員跟輔導主任或組長大家覺得已經有法律的版本或是法律的專業倫理可以照顧到那這個我可以拿掉可是我要再次強調在每一個特殊令人悲傷的個案現場"},{"start":20197.503,"end":20198.723,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20219.75,"end":20244.562,"text":"不認為這件事情是跟他們有關,所以才會產生很多令人悲傷的個案。也就是為什麼在我們的版本裡面,我特別要把17條之一,其他學生輔導工作相關人員應遵守的專業倫理提出來。我當然不會指責教育部說現在沒有所謂的教師專業倫理規範,因為教育部告訴我們有教師法,有相關的三聘、不續聘、停聘、解聘辦法。"},{"start":20245.222,"end":20246.103,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20262.654,"end":20262.774,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":20280.254,"end":20281.455,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20303.587,"end":20304.087,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20329.807,"end":20334.411,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":20357.449,"end":20357.689,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":20374.176,"end":20377.357,"text":"范雲等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。netesle等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":20402.796,"end":20403.057,"text":"第二十四條"},{"start":20419.212,"end":20421.474,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":20441.69,"end":20464.023,"text":"好,所以它24條裡面就說本法修正條文第一條至第三條及第11條施行日期由行政院定之,這樣可以嗎?好,即改成頓號,然後後面的頓號改成即。好。即改...第一至第三條頓號。"},{"start":20466.26,"end":20489.195,"text":"段浩第11條及第11條之一施行日期由行政院定之。好,謝謝。那我們現在就回到,欸我剛第16條附帶決議要先解決掉嗎?還是要逐條回來?我們最後來處理一下。哈?還沒有印出來,他還沒有印出來。"},{"start":20492.352,"end":20493.393,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":20522.25,"end":20522.891,"text":"范雲委員第四條我有提一個修正動議那我想是這樣就是說"},{"start":20538.756,"end":20541.996,"text":"等一下等一下我對不起先等一下這個門進進出出我這樣子然後是不是可以稍微管控一下"},{"start":20563.761,"end":20564.804,"text":"對,貴黨黨團的記者會門關緊一點,來繼續"},{"start":20580.751,"end":20592.376,"text":"我想這個學生輔導諮商中心絕對不是說中央行政機關組織基準法又或者是各地方政府任務編組作業原則當中所認定的臨時性組織"},{"start":20596.258,"end":20618.97,"text":"如果說學生輔導資商中心不存在了那我們今天修正不法就根本沒有意義所以本席認為如果說與其在附帶決議請教育部來做參考辦理我覺得不如就直接在法律條文中把各項精神跟要求寫清楚所以我才提這項修正動議這項修正動議裡面教育部要的彈性"},{"start":20622.712,"end":20649.024,"text":"也給了就要不同意的專府人員勞動條件提升同時也寫得清清楚楚那如果各地方政府要採正式編組的就採正式編組那如果各地方政府要採常設性的任務編組就採常設性任務編組那可是無論採哪一種編組實質上的人員的待遇都應當參照學生輔導諮商中心所在地方政府機關的編制"},{"start":20650.385,"end":20651.065,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20665.734,"end":20683.146,"text":"我們並不用在這次修正三讀後就馬上來落實有三年的緩衝期讓中央跟地方都能在預算跟組織架構上去做出比較完整的準備我必須再強調一次就是說學生輔導智商中心不是臨時性的組織"},{"start":20684.227,"end":20684.807,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20705.277,"end":20718.967,"text":"只改名那換單不換要沒有什麼意義那所以請教育部要承擔這份責任就是說我沒有辦法接受只是用附帶決議去期待行政單位的好意以上 謝謝還有沒有"},{"start":20722.84,"end":20723.14,"text":"范議委員范議委員"},{"start":20746.77,"end":20768.131,"text":"內政部說輔資中心如果正式化的話,我們的他的說法我們聽起來啊可能就會是教育局處下的一級單位嘛那目前在地方行政機關組織準則中對於一級單位的數量其實並沒有設上限啊所以機關數的限制依照內政部給我們的說法跟地方行政機關組織準則應該是不存在的"},{"start":20770.674,"end":20771.194,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":20789.639,"end":20790.139,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20807.435,"end":20834.68,"text":"但如果一旦正式化其實就需要基層編制嘛那我們可以討論是不是編制一般的行政人員然後專府人員人用約用那等等這些部分就是部分公務員部分約用那這樣就不會佔用那麼多的員額所以這是我跟那個內政部詢問的結果所以也請教育部重新依照我問來的部分是不是可以解釋一下好不好"},{"start":20840.696,"end":20841.417,"text":"一經委員的修正動議針對第四項"},{"start":20864.962,"end":20882.662,"text":"就是把正式編組或常設性任務編組並列,而用或的方式來取代。我想這個看起來是有一個台階的空間。就實際的來看應該是可行。但後半段有一塊說"},{"start":20884.889,"end":20886.831,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":20915.746,"end":20916.666,"text":"二、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20935.478,"end":20935.999,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":20953.852,"end":20957.856,"text":"法律事務部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部"},{"start":20979.674,"end":21008.144,"text":"那如果是屬於聘僱人員的話事實上在上個禮拜人事總署主管機關也有說明的很清楚聘僱人員現行的規定他的退休制度就是依照勞工退休金條例規定來辦理所以事實上並沒有教育部或相關主管機關在另訂退輔制度的空間所以說對於第四項的部分當然可以尊重委員還有立法委員還有部裡面的這個相關的這個想法因為這涉及到組織的部分不過有關權益的部分因為"},{"start":21008.744,"end":21028.195,"text":"他是什麼樣類別的人,事實上現行就有相關的適用的制度,所以不需要再另訂相關規定,所以第五項建議不要增訂以上。好,好啦,有沒有辦法正式邊組又加薪好不好,這是大家最最最希望的,還有沒有?我說這是知識體大,要徹底討論好不好,要徹底討論一下。來,內政部是不是也可以回應我剛剛問的問題好嗎?"},{"start":21037.984,"end":21056.42,"text":"法務要補充,法務補充。好,法務先補充,他剛才舉手了。主席、各位委員,那有關於這個輔導資源中心,它的組織,我印象你的上次會議總處的代表已經講得很清楚,法律明定應設。"},{"start":21058.257,"end":21075.585,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案件事宜、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分"},{"start":21087.625,"end":21088.305,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":21113.115,"end":21114.676,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":21130.851,"end":21147.604,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案案案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案﹚一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文�"},{"start":21156.971,"end":21171.06,"text":"這組織是不會不見的,除非我們的法律把它修掉,得赦,或是把這個中心刪掉,否則它是受到法律保障的,你就是應赦。所以現行的機制其實就是已經有法律保障,"},{"start":21172.014,"end":21188.639,"text":"各位委員可以理解,它不會不見的。不會說有一個自家制限制政府說我想設就設,不設就把它裁掉。是不行的,因為法律已經明定你就應要設。只是它設的時候的組織形態、線型都是用任務編組的方式來做安排的。"},{"start":21189.039,"end":21208.408,"text":"所以如果以如上的實務跟我們一般的法制用語上面也很少用到叫做正式編組,因為編組的概念就是任務性的,就不是正式組織的概念。是不是可以容許,可以不爭定,這一項以上。"},{"start":21208.996,"end":21210.037,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":21225.105,"end":21247.336,"text":"提會討論的部分裡面是學生輔導諮商中心之組織他只用組織我們過去來說的話因為這個組織裡面我們就開始會簽到上一禮拜還記得我們就開始不斷討論要不要把這個組織法制化或者是因為他沒有法制化所以他用組織他怕法制化所以才會用組織他給予很大的一個彈性的空間所以我們回應到上禮拜我們討論這些條文來看"},{"start":21250.678,"end":21252.579,"text":"所以說教育部經過這一個禮拜的討論之後你們還是認為把它變成我們上次用的是什麼組織規"},{"start":21263.089,"end":21263.489,"text":"四、繼續審查委員"},{"start":21288.871,"end":21293.313,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":21315.92,"end":21337.162,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 第4項,其實已經把這一塊收回來由中央主管機關、會商、指甲室跟縣屬機關定職。所以我們會就各縣市目前運作比較健全、比較良好的一個做法,用來作為討論的基礎,跟各地方政府做會商。"},{"start":21338.062,"end":21367.14,"text":"那這個應該可以有助於把這個向上提升啦讓原本比較弱的這些縣市可以有比較好的做法定在辦法引導他們來做那我想這個也是改善就是讓輔助中心的功能可以發揮我們會主要的一個做法然後我想如果連同我們委員所提到的附帶決議如何實質上去改善專輔人員的待遇我會認為可能比在成為正式組織上要更好一點點以上報告"},{"start":21367.799,"end":21382.351,"text":"因此,我覺得以輔導工作人員來說,如果行政院、人總各方面都會認為組織比組織規程來得更合適,那我所考慮的其實就是這些輔導人員的薪資待遇如何把它提升。"},{"start":21384.312,"end":21403.881,"text":"那時候提出的附帶決定花這麼多時間來裡面這是經過跟非常多團體組織討論過來這樣的一個薪資是可以有一些的誘因可以讓他們願意留下來在這樣子的一個學校的單位裡面來去做的所以要不要請各位委員彼此之間再來協調這是行政院的版本"},{"start":21405.342,"end":21429.838,"text":"我們當然每個人都希望法制化可是如果今天都把它保留到禮拜四我協商你們還是給我同樣的理由然後呢告訴我可能三年逐年我們來考慮法制化那我最concern 裡面這些這些輔導人員的第一線人員裡面的馬上可以透過這樣的一個部分可以來做加薪的就完全就被卡在法制化的這樣一個部分裡面當中遙遙無或許有可能你們不要給我壓個時間點我覺得我們還是要回到很現實的問題裡面來做一個考量好不好"},{"start":21435.161,"end":21456.567,"text":"范雲委員我想這裡面分成兩個部分一個部分當然就是爭取人才實質加薪的部分那奉典的部分柯之恩召委的提那個部分我也可以同意那專業證照加給的部分我上禮拜就有附帶決議了那也跟柯召委的看法一樣那但是就是說這其實如果能夠加上公務人員的這個穩定跟長定的話是更好的"},{"start":21464.349,"end":21464.989,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":21486.207,"end":21507.1,"text":"所以我的版本就是希望能夠建立主任督導然後醫師三級的本縫然後專業家級有年功縫再加職務家級那這個部分才會有一個正式化那這部分你就可以鼓勵他們依照醫事人員條例師三級聘用的模式那跟約用提供職務家級的模式雙軌併用也就是說你可以有這個方向"},{"start":21511.122,"end":21538.773,"text":"那其實我也是希望這條今天能夠解決只是我不知道林宜瑾委員那個部分跟我這個有沒有矛盾那如果那個部分沒矛盾的話我是很希望就是可以依照她通過但是我還是希望有點時間我可以再跟專業團體討論啦所以這個部分如果今天不能定案的話那我是希望還是保留啦那她宜瑾委員那部分我覺得是個解方因為她也不排除政治化的可能性嘛你是有或吧或"},{"start":21541.598,"end":21541.978,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":21570.064,"end":21593.914,"text":"先說因為他就是堅持費的概念可是很大一個困難是因為特教資源中心裡頭借來的都是商界的特教老師他的待遇相關都是比照老師的一條邊的模式所以他不存在差異就比較不會有流動的這樣的問題啦那我們的福祉中心因為都專服人員都用聘用人員禁用的方式跟輔導老師差距很大"},{"start":21595.242,"end":21596.043,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":21619.352,"end":21644.084,"text":"就是在這個地方對我個人來說啦這麼多的學生在這邊提高他們的薪資是最大的一個誘因現在任何人的工作當然你能夠有正式的編制是最好可是在院板所提出來的還有上次我們的討論如果院板是你們自己沒有辦法做到這個層面他說我們還要卡在這個地方不去討論他們的薪資嗎我之前是金牛座我現在非常務實好不好"},{"start":21646.309,"end":21646.91,"text":"二、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":21663.513,"end":21685.184,"text":"因為原本是這樣,原本的原條文的這個立法說明就有寫說以任務編組方式運作或循地方制治法規設立新機關或派出單位之程序規定設立之那我的意思是說你這個本來立法說明這樣是不是就把這些立法說明定在"},{"start":21686.155,"end":21693.361,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件 條文修正草案案件 條文修正草案案件 條文修正草案案件 條文修正草案案件 條文修正草案案件 條文修正草案案件"},{"start":21716.32,"end":21731.639,"text":"當然你知道我們期待的是什麼啦好沒關係那我如果說可以的話就如同你們講的常設性任務編組是不是可以把它寫在後面最後一款裡面把立法說明寫進去就對了"},{"start":21734.652,"end":21761.486,"text":"謝謝那個議金委員那個議金委員這段我在上禮拜四我就有說過在103定學生輔導法在立法第四條的說明裡有就說的就是這個他就告訴你是任務編組也可以你要依照地方制度法定成立新的機關也可以原本的立法進行成就案他並沒有說一定是任務編組只是我剛講一旦依地方制度法成立新的機關我的理解是"},{"start":21762.466,"end":21786.564,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件及其中一部分條文修正草案 案件及其中一部分條文修正草案 案件及其中一部分條文修正草案 案件及其中一部分條文修正草案 案件及其中一部分條文修正草案"},{"start":21790.903,"end":21809.38,"text":"在這邊跟各位委員報告就是依據我們的這個行政機關組織準則我們是針對於組織的原額還有它的這個都定有規範有一個框架針對所屬一級機關的數量和單位都是有管制的比如說直轄市在200萬人口以下的"},{"start":21812.162,"end":21812.742,"text":"立法院第11屆第11會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":21831.155,"end":21831.455,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":21857.227,"end":21857.347,"text":"林宜瑾等"},{"start":21884.491,"end":21896.276,"text":"最後一個例子在作用法裡頭定組織法的最後一個例子就是家庭教育法當年家庭教育法修正的時候把家庭教育中心納進去之後行政院就已經發現這個問題是一個"},{"start":21899.206,"end":21899.886,"text":"一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":21926.644,"end":21952.746,"text":"剛剛委員們提到一個正式化但是我們曾經一直跟委員報告正式化在很多的這些輔資的老師或是這些人員他們反映的問題可能對於正式化的想像他們沒有行政機關清楚但不管怎麼樣我們就請教他他面臨到什麼問題那我們拆解這幾個問題是這樣第一個他不希望在科之下"},{"start":21954.977,"end":21978.002,"text":"他不希望在科之下,現行是在科之下,以至於行政在領導的過程中,有很多專業的判斷會低於行政的思維。所以第一點,他不一定是靠正式化來解決問題,所以即便是常設組織,我們也可以把它定調成他是平行於科。"},{"start":21979.056,"end":21979.916,"text":"第二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":21999.821,"end":22000.622,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":22013.577,"end":22033.006,"text":"這個組織當你移出科變成平時科有專業的權責之後那領導呢?領導也改了各位請看一下領導已經改成他的主管人員就在一項二項三項第三項主管人員就分號之後分號之後主管人員應由就是地方政府這個領選"},{"start":22042.264,"end":22043.865,"text":"一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案"},{"start":22068.968,"end":22071.471,"text":"立法院第11會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":22084.446,"end":22085.767,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":22105.134,"end":22132.687,"text":"正式化他們清楚會有後遺症嗎?比如說現在83%的禁用率我一綁了公務化可能禁用率可能會低於40甚至現在在的人要重新考高考這樣是真的他們清楚的嗎?他們想了一下之後那他們真的要的是我剛才跟大家報告的那如果我們在附帶決議立法說明寫清楚他組織把定性他的規格應該在哪一個層級"},{"start":22133.948,"end":22144.376,"text":"他的預算、他的主管人員這一次都發現問題了,做很好的處理,看條文寫漂亮一點,立法說明寫清楚,甚至還附帶決議,讓這件事情的未來運作也不會出狀況。我覺得以後可能會比,再加上剛剛趙偉講的,未來心思上做一點調整,"},{"start":22153.743,"end":22163.925,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人"},{"start":22183.533,"end":22197.496,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":22198.831,"end":22199.031,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":22219.601,"end":22242.647,"text":"林宜瑾委員這個修正動議我也蠻支持的只是我對有些地方有點不確定還想要再去詢問我們相關的專業團體所以我是還是希望這條招委可以支持這個部分保留那您的附帶決議我是會支持好不好那這樣子大家就圓滿一點快達成目的了我們圓滿一點問題是禮拜四馬上又要來我們這個部分還是要重新來一遍給你兩天時間好不好幫我們的意見來楊瓊瑛委員"},{"start":22256.999,"end":22272.483,"text":"我真的感謝但是我真的充分建議教育委員會我們那個時間還是要有所稍微定一下因為坊間我們在所有學校家長學校真的都很迫切需要"},{"start":22273.513,"end":22274.754,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":22291.106,"end":22311.672,"text":"對,對對對,所以我說,因為我們充分討論環迴的時候,我盡量有共識行政部門,因為這樣子一直拖地方,我講的各個面向當然很需要,我最怕的就是這些人才會跑掉,我們要怎麼辦?沒有理由不給他們公平的對待啦,好不好?好,謝謝"},{"start":22313.376,"end":22326.79,"text":"感謝楊卓英委員。還有沒有?不然的話,因為我們現在從條文已經審完畢了。但是有些附帶決議還有我們需要保留的部分。來,我們是不是,我看一下。所以第4條,你補充一下。"},{"start":22333.739,"end":22360.039,"text":"這個第四條正式化我們討論很久其中我很關注的是這個輔導人員他如果有兼任主管或兼任行政工作我們如何在薪資待遇上給他這個恰當的提升因為那如果你不是正式化就不是加級那你可能是用獎勵的方式所以不管是在這個修法的文字當中或是立法說明現在先保留但是我希望到時協商教育部這裡可以給一個更明確的"},{"start":22361.42,"end":22379.007,"text":"就是確保說如果他是有兼任行政工作的話我們會給他你用獎勵或是福利的方式讓他在實際的收入上面是有所提升的好我們第四條就保留請教育部都有記錄剛剛委員的一些意見那我們是不是先討論四之一上禮拜我們沒有討論到四之一好不好四之一目前為止"},{"start":22388.442,"end":22392.867,"text":"四之一目前為止陳佩玉委員跟葛如君委員還有羅廷偉委員有沒有人要幫他們發言的沒有的話四之一交一部委員的提案四之一有兩項"},{"start":22405.885,"end":22423.193,"text":"第一項講的就是批用的這個心理師、社工師可以逐年增加預算跟員額那這一項就是說在現行法的第22條其實已經有提到第三條已經界定的"},{"start":22424.053,"end":22437.538,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 第2、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第1會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第2會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第2會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第2會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第2會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第2會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第2會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾"},{"start":22453.604,"end":22473.524,"text":"福島教師、專業福島人員及承認福島主任者。上次大家討論有意見的是這一條,承認福島主任者。我想因為我們在第四條的授權執法裡頭,它有定人員資格以及遴選的部分。所以我想將來的執法裡頭,對於承認福島主任的人,要不要定更延期的要求?"},{"start":22475.366,"end":22476.447,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":22503.018,"end":22526.085,"text":"提問版的第3項第4條第3項就是由主管機關臨選具輔導專業專長者擔任然後我們在第4條執法會有資格跟臨選的相關的規範以確保其專業性好 培育委員因為你在現場 OK好 那就好 貴育群委員"},{"start":22528.266,"end":22548.418,"text":"我提醒一下就是那個輔資中心其實常常會因為那個人力喔然後太好用被賦予很多其他形形色色的一些角色啦那我想那個輔資中心的一個主任是常常沒辦法久任的一個原因其實專業只是其中之一但其實還有很多大家對他這個位置不同的一些期待啦提醒一下對以上回應一下"},{"start":22551.482,"end":22581.014,"text":"我說明一下這一塊無法透過修法來解決這一塊將來可能在國家署這一塊需要多一點協助支持讓各縣市所選出來的這個輔助中心的主任要具備專業的能力同時要創造很多機會讓他們可以縣市之間多一點觀摩交流的機會讓他們可以理解如何帶好這個團隊來支援學校這個可能有很多配套措施要做啦"},{"start":22581.274,"end":22606.022,"text":"好,那我們四之一目前為止的話,就是照你剛剛說的是建議不予徵訂嘛,好不好?那有關於第四條的部分,因為還牽涉到我們的薪資,所以我們就予以保留,所以沒有第五條,第五條也是保留啊,第五條就是有關職能的部分嘛,對不對?我們是保留嘛,那你這邊是七之一第六條的"},{"start":22608.627,"end":22635.655,"text":"第二條附帶決議第六條附帶決議有陳培宇委員提案的附帶決議還有一個范雲委員提到的你們應該都手上都有資料嘛好不好我們先處理這兩個不用唸了吧還要唸嗎不用了陳培宇委員的是第六條的那個范雲委員是放在第11條是不是要拉回第六條一樣都是實驗教育的部分那我想因為那個國教署好像有"},{"start":22637.483,"end":22666.861,"text":"有溝通了嗎?噢對,因噴法修正通過後三個月內強化宣導現有輔導規範,六個月內會同地方政府研議進進落實的機制,使學校輔導工作服務更作為周延,並提出書面報告送交教文會。是不是那個,兩個要整合嗎?還是?OK,OK,好那就才,這個就配合辦理。好,那就配合辦理。"},{"start":22668.735,"end":22688.721,"text":"他們兩個就整合過了嘛,你去問他們的。好,那第10條我們保留,第11條我們保留,第12條我們保留,第16條因為是陳佩瑜委員有特別提到這個倫理的這個層面的部分嘛,我們就保留第17條跟第17條之一也是保留,沒有錯吧?"},{"start":22689.226,"end":22689.646,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":22718.633,"end":22741.789,"text":"范雲委員、郭玉琴委員、慈培委員跟陳秀寶委員。怎麼樣?負擔決議,第三條。第三條是,我們有一段文字建議可以左調,就是但現行資源並不足夠,這個文字我們建議,OK,其餘就配合辦理。"},{"start":22743.687,"end":22751.875,"text":"九、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 第9條負貸決議：立法院第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 第9條負貸決議：立法院第1會期教育及文化委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":22771.991,"end":22777.313,"text":"第9條的附帶決議我們配合辦理。接下來我們處理第10條的附帶決議,也是陳培宇委員提議。第10條的附帶決議。"},{"start":22802.88,"end":22825.907,"text":"小霞,一個月內可以嗎?好,那我們就修正後通過好不好,一個月改成三個月我們修正後通過。來,第11條"},{"start":22830.35,"end":22857.484,"text":"范雲等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 、范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草"},{"start":22861.812,"end":22890.817,"text":"十六條十六條就是維持現行條文然後附帶決議配合辦理對阿他剛剛已經講了配合辦理阿這是第十六條嗎這配合辦理阿十六條他早就說過了配合辦理兩個不一樣但是第一間應該都一樣這是全配一的部分喔"},{"start":22892.073,"end":22893.594,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":22919.093,"end":22942.647,"text":"二十四條范雲委員的附帶決議來教育部那個有一點文字想修正委員的提案是第11條正式施行前那我們建議把它修改成學輔法公佈後其實時間點是同樣的就是以那個公佈那個點切點點三個月"},{"start":22948.956,"end":22977.746,"text":"二十四條先確定一下。你們聽得懂嗎?學輔法公佈前。公佈後。請教育部在學輔法公佈後與三個月內。三個月內。好。那接下來還有我們葛如君的修正動議。你看到嗎?負擔決議。不好意思。負擔決議。葛如君的負擔決議關於AI的部分。"},{"start":22982.851,"end":23007.408,"text":"我們都很支持我們只是想跟各位商量是不是可以給我們比較足夠的時間因為後續涉及AI科技如何導入我們會需要進一步邀請學者專家我在我在我也是提案人我們是建議可以給我們6個月的時間我同意6個月的時間然後修正後通過所以現在呢"},{"start":23011.531,"end":23011.984,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":23015.114,"end":23019.838,"text":"關於今天的會議做如下的一個決定今天的審查結果免予重複宣讀在不影響條文文藝前提下文字條次及標點符號為統一體力授權議事人員修改列入記錄為與採納條文授權議事人員來確認關於今天的會議"},{"start":23043.095,"end":23050.863,"text":"我們作成以下的決議對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆的部分請相關機關迅速以書面來作答覆那學生輔導法已經全部審查完略不須交由黨團協商你不是要交由你當然要要交由你寫得衝煞了"},{"start":23067.279,"end":23082.014,"text":"我看了也覺得哈。需交由黨團協商並按擬具審查的報告提請院會討論。院會討論時有柯昭吉委員之恩補充說明。報告委員會今天的議程處理完畢。我們現在散會。謝謝各位。"},{"start":23087.093,"end":23089.354,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":23104.072,"end":23106.173,"text":"張雅琳等二、繼續審查委員張雅琳等二、繼續審查委員"},{"start":23126.631,"end":23131.999,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}