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一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個"},{"start":118.743,"end":141.14,"text":"演員跟其他的工作人員的話可能有點差異因為演員的話他可能本身是一個自營作業的一個情況他是一個專業的人員他透過他的經紀人員跟製作單位簽訂了這樣的一個委任的相關契約所以不太一樣所以這個公使是兩方約定"},{"start":142.898,"end":157.147,"text":"兩邊約定就好了,還是用承攬企業如果出事的話,是要找誰負責像這個這麼高的地方在攝影,又塞進來那是最聽到的你們這一塊有沒有,我覺得最容易出事的就在這裡還有再來是司機"},{"start":169.963,"end":181.871,"text":"遊覽車的司機,像我這樣在動彎,在撒汗,在遊覽啦欸,那個司機,大家都什麼時候算選辦時間,什麼時候沒算選辦時間有的說叫你一台遊覽車要請兩個司機,這司機怎麼算?說手放方向盤,叫做在選辦啊,離開,沒方向盤,車輛沒抱的人,這樣就算休息啊,車輛只有一個人"},{"start":196.98,"end":204.489,"text":"就剩,就剩,就剩要上班時間,所以都把你們逛逛來,阿婆要逛到五碗,她也要逛逛來,她說你人沒有離開,我就,我就,車就熄火,我就可以離開方向盤,欸這個,這個,這個都是問題,一再的發生糾紛,這個怎麼辦?"},{"start":216.562,"end":233.043,"text":"報告委員,那有關遊覽車的這個狀況,那其實我們職安署也有訂定了一個相關遊覽車的檢查的一個專門的一個檢查的見識的方法,那屬於工作時間的部分,他可以把它見識出來。"},{"start":233.604,"end":256.019,"text":"那如果是休息時間,那也有不同的態樣有的到一個定點,那那個乘客去遊玩,那那個時間的話就會進到勞工的休息時間所以有不同的態樣,那這個相關的檢查要點其實都有去釐清因為現在國民旅遊很多啦,幾乎每天都會發生,每天就在發生每天像我從東港出發,從屏東出發,路邊就停"},{"start":260.083,"end":278.972,"text":"就聽阿婆阿拉什麼的就去,就出發啦都五六點,六七點就在集合啊在附近到沿岸九點、十點就回來我覺得那廚藝也是很辛苦的,也一個廚藝所以這個都要很注意啦,因為我們勞工大家都很辛苦"},{"start":280.171,"end":297.883,"text":"要補充,如果出事,也要負責定義,像在拍專輯的,那都是公司嘛,公司的花倒就倒,花糟就糟,金門的,這張照片要靠無法曬,像這張照片,塞在上面會發生意外。"},{"start":300.698,"end":326.71,"text":"這個都是問題啊,這一塊是最...一般大公司大行你不用擔心他啦他一定照顧你,台積電根本照顧不來台積電要點什麼幫你,你沒有跟他聊天他連你起床我也會起床,每天要講時大的公司,大的上市上柜公司或者法人公司根本不用你去擔心,最要擔心的就是這個"},{"start":328.197,"end":347.821,"text":"看不到,在腳握,他們每天,像我們記者朋友,我每次看到他們在那邊露喉啊,情緒洪漠,在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?"},{"start":354.8,"end":377.352,"text":"我想剛剛委員其實提醒的包括我們的演藝人員尤其是藝術表演的工作者表演工作者部分目前其實我們跟文化部那針對大家其實這些公使是不是要更進一步的規範包括植栽的部分其實我們現在跟文化部有建立跨部會的討論然後真的這部分在強化"},{"start":378.783,"end":393.633,"text":"那再來就是,我要讓你講一個,美國現在川普的,差不多,川普的就是一人泡麵,叫全世界都給他吃完我做醫生就聽,幹,他都給我們吃完,他自己也不想吃"},{"start":394.898,"end":415.692,"text":"一直都吃漢堡 喝可樂 啊我們都吃牛肉我們還笑著 還笑著叫MASKMASK 啊MASK 說要提升多少錢 說要提升五千個美金結果還是裁員 還要裁27萬個聯邦的員工啊真的裁了十萬人喔 結果呢"},{"start":423.154,"end":437.88,"text":"他可以省一千五百億美金就像現在BBC啊什麼就出來K他說這人要把他遣散 要把他離職 要把他休退開一千三百多個美金現在那天開沒人做 現在還在找新的員工一百五年 這有效嗎 這要吃了有效嗎"},{"start":452.15,"end":475.289,"text":"你是醫生喔我不太適合去評論其他國家的政治人物這樣的問題像這種這樣大量解雇大量這樣我們有可能做這種事情當然你在台灣的政治跟行政的環境我們確實不太可能做這樣的事情所以no comment"},{"start":479.332,"end":504.621,"text":"我們不太方便評論其他國家的總統或政治人物好,那最後一個問題,這個災保法災保法,災害保護法這變成法外的孤兒了那這個是RCA的問題,現在尾巴還沒有收這個我在第八屆的時候就有受人處理了,現在處理到最後是怎麼樣很多這種"},{"start":509.471,"end":510.196,"text":"有沒有,現在到"},{"start":514.609,"end":541.397,"text":"謝委員 我們長期跟法服基金會有協助他們訴訟有提供律師費 那他們要去抵押扣押財產需要擔保 我們勞動部也出去可以擔保一億的證明後續都是由律師團跟他們的自救會一起在訴訟當中有第一批的人已經贏了 後面還有第二批的人還在繼續訴訟"},{"start":543.226,"end":563.088,"text":"所以大部分都解決了?他們有分好幾批,現在主要是要扣他的財產扣誰的財產?阿溪的阿溪還有這間公司嗎?在國外的財產你可以去扣國外財產?他們在找你怎麼又請人去外國扣?有自修會他們在找"},{"start":564.209,"end":589.238,"text":"到國外打官司很貴捏請一個律師要七八百萬台幣捏一兩千萬都有捏所以有在追蹤嗎我想這個案子我們有在做後續的因為這種這個是好久了捏所以這個要諸如此類的勞動部要我一直在講就是說這個看弱勢的家"},{"start":593.21,"end":597.256,"text":"這要時間派空姐,這要五六天就是你要照顧的不然你如果做得好,你就是好的不然啦那老闆說什麼,那你不用管啦"},{"start":604.659,"end":626.377,"text":"那些小小的小小的,這樣甩就甩了,他們就很認真這樣啦跟便衣一樣嘛對不對最重要就是偏遠地區的醫療你要提升嘛你從那個牡丹鄉現在要打那個人造衛星的地方那個地方蓄海有一個病人生病要到恆春到東港96分鐘到不了"},{"start":630.06,"end":654.08,"text":"在台北市六分鐘可以做檢驗就到你想要的適當的醫療院所然後台北市的人他每一年的醫療費用我們是九千多億嘛平均兩千三百萬人一個人要四萬塊一個人頭上就capitation就四萬塊在屏東在牡丹他們才要花兩萬幾塊而已他們台北市的人都花六萬幾塊這樣才有辦法"},{"start":658.797,"end":677.322,"text":"你做接種這裡就是要把那裡照顧,那裡如果有平權,你就成功啦,其他都不一樣,都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣"},{"start":683.649,"end":691.715,"text":"反正站著又叫我拔白包反正站著沒人處理綜藝叫我丟到外面我常常做這種事情所以是不一樣的樣態所以每天這樣來來回回我的感觸都很深所以柏定你也算機長站著要照顧自己好不好謝謝委員的建議跟提醒謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":310,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（9時53分）謝謝主席。我請部長跟職安署。"],["主席：請部長跟職安署林署長。"],["洪部長申翰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，明天是勞動節，所以今天排這個題目真的是很棒，大家都很關心我們的勞工朋友，我就直接切入主題。我要詢問你工時，現在的記者，不管是文字記者，不管是電子報的記者，不管是攝影，大家都很辛苦，尤其在追focus焦點新聞的時候，都在那邊日以繼夜，整夜整日都在排班，整夜整日都在那邊坐，一下喝飲料、一下吃熱食，但是就是在那邊一直等，整夜的。請問這個工時是要怎麼算？部長。"],["黃司長維琛：報告委員，有關工作時間的部分，它包括實際從事工作以及待命的時間，它都是屬於工作時間，受拘束的話都算。"],["蘇委員清泉：他就坐在攝影機前面，坐在那邊，這樣有算時間嗎？"],["黃司長維琛：如果他有受到雇主的拘束，必須要在那邊待命提供勞務的時間，也都是工作時間。"],["蘇委員清泉：雇主限制？所以那個雇主應該是電視臺或者是報社，是不是？"],["洪部長申翰：或製作公司。"],["蘇委員清泉：或製作公司？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：那麼演員呢？演員拍一個短劇或拍一個什麼，那是一集、一集，還是傳播公司聘請他們的？"],["黃司長維琛：演員的部分……"],["蘇委員清泉：演員弄一整夜，跳來跳去，本人、助理、攝影、跑龍套的，都是這樣沒日沒夜工作，他們的工時怎麼算？"],["黃司長維琛：演員跟其他工作人員可能有一點差異，因為演員本身可能是自營作業的情況，他是一個專業人員，透過經紀人員跟製作單位簽訂一個委任的相關契約，所以不太一樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：你是說工時是兩方約定就好了，還是用承攬契約？如果出事的話，要找誰負責？"],["黃司長維琛：這個部分，演員通常會……"],["蘇委員清泉：像在這麼高的地方攝影摔下來，那是時常聽到的情況，我覺得最容易出事的就在這裡。再來還有司機的部分，像遊覽車司機，動員或是遊覽等等都需要，那司機什麼時候算上班時間、什麼時候不算上班時間？有的時候要求一輛遊覽車要請兩個司機，司機的部分到底要怎麼算？是手放在方向盤叫做上班，如果離開沒有摸方向盤、車上沒半個人，這樣就算休息？如果車上有坐一個人，就算是上班時間，所以都會把大家趕下車，即使阿婆頭暈不想下來，他也會把她趕下來，因為如果不離開，他就沒辦法熄火離開方向盤，這都是問題欸！一再的發生糾紛，這個怎麼辦？"],["黃司長維琛：報告委員，有關遊覽車的狀況，其實我們職安署有訂定一個遊覽車相關的檢查也是一個專門鑑識的方法，屬於工作時間的部分可以把它鑑識出來，至於休息時間，因為有不同的態樣，有的是到一個定點，乘客去遊玩，那個時間就會進到勞工的休息時間，所以有不同的態樣，相關檢查要點其實都有釐清。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在國民旅遊很多，這個幾乎每天都在發生，像我從東港、屏東出來，路邊就會停遊覽車，等一些阿婆上車就出發了，他們都是五六點、六七點就集合出發，一直弄到晚上9點、10點才回來，我覺得司機很辛苦，也是只有一個司機，所以這個都要很注意，因為勞工都很辛苦，你要給他們保障，如果出事了誰要負責？像那些拍攝專輯的都是公司，公司喊倒就倒、喊跑就跑，這種到最後都是「欲哭無眼淚」，像攝影的如果摔下去發生意外，這都是問題啊！一般大公司、大行號不用擔心，它一定都照規定做，像台積電哪會不照規定？台積電要吊模板，繩索不套牢一點，可能連讓你上去都不會讓你上去，每天都要講習，大的公司、大的上市、上櫃公司，或者是法人公司，根本不用擔心，最要擔心的就是這個在角落看不到的地方，像我們的記者朋友，每次看他們下雨天穿著雨衣在那邊等，要等什麼？就是catch、play而已嘛！對不對？這個都很重要，部長，你是勞工出身，對於這一塊要很注意，非常重要，我覺得勞動節要注意的就是這一塊而已啦！"],["洪部長申翰：是，剛剛委員提醒的，包括演藝人員，尤其是藝術表演工作者部分，目前我們跟文化部針對大家的工時是不是要更進一步規範，包括職災部分，我們跟文化部都有建立跨部會討論，針對這部分再予以強化。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來，美國現在差不多就是川普一個人生病，卻叫全世界跟著吃藥；我當醫生的立場，覺得他都是叫我們吃藥，但他自己並不想吃，他每天吃漢堡、喝可樂，但我們要吃藥，就好像瘋子一樣。還有一個更瘋的叫馬斯克，馬斯克說要替他省5,000億美金，結果就一直裁員，說要裁27萬個聯邦員工，現在真的裁了10萬人喔！結果呢？他可以省1,500億美金，但現在BBC什麼的都出來K他，因為要遣散這些人，要他們離職、給他們優退，要花一千三百多億美金，現在這些工作沒人做，還要招新的員工進來，這樣有瘋嗎？這要吃藥嗎？部長，你的看法如何？"],["洪部長申翰：委員你是醫生，我不太適合評論其他國家政治人物的問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：像這種大量解僱的情形，我們有可能去做這種事情嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然在臺灣的政治跟行政環境，我們確實不太可能做這樣的事情。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以no comment？"],["洪部長申翰：我們不太方便評論其他國家的總統或政治人物。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，最後一個問題問你災保法、災害保護法，RCA問題現在變成法外孤兒了，還有尾巴沒有收，這個我們在第8屆的時候就有處理，現在處理到最後是怎麼樣？現在到什麼情況？"],["王司長厚偉：謝謝委員，我們長期都有跟法扶基金會協助他們訴訟、提供律師費，他們要去扣押財產需要擔保，勞動部也出具可以擔保1億的擔保證明，後續都是由律師團跟他們自救會一起在訴訟當中，第一批的人已經贏了，後面第二批的人還在繼續訴訟。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以大部分都解決了？"],["王司長厚偉：他們有分好幾批，現在主要是要扣它的財產。"],["蘇委員清泉：扣誰的財產？"],["王司長厚偉：RCA。"],["蘇委員清泉：還有RCA這間公司嗎？"],["王司長厚偉：在國外的財產。"],["蘇委員清泉：可以去扣國外財產？"],["王司長厚偉：他們在找。"],["蘇委員清泉：那不是要再請人去外國訴訟？"],["王司長厚偉：自救會他們在找。"],["蘇委員清泉：到國外打官司很貴！請一個律師要七、八百萬臺幣，一、兩千萬都有，所以有在追蹤嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這個案子我們有在做後續的……"],["蘇委員清泉：因為這個已經很久了，諸如此類的，就像我一再講的，這些比較弱勢的、工時比較難控制的勞工，你要去照顧他們，部長，這個如果做得好，你就是好的部長，至於那些大公司，你不必管啦！那些只要拿支拂塵掃一掃，他們就很認真了！這跟醫院一樣嘛，對不對？最重要就是偏遠地區的醫療要提升，像現在牡丹鄉要建置人造衛星發射場的旭海，病人生病到恆春、東港，96分鐘還到不了，在臺北市，6分鐘坐捷運就可以到你想要的、適當的醫療院所；我們的醫療經費是九千多億，兩千三百萬人，平均一個人要四萬塊，一個人頭上的capitation就四萬塊，在屏東牡丹，他們差不多花兩萬多塊而已，而臺北市一個人花六萬多元，這樣公平嗎？執政者本來就要照顧那些人，把他們拉上來，這些人如果有平權，那你就成功啦！都會區每間醫院都蓋得漂漂亮亮，哪需要你們管理？都會區的人經濟強又有保險，什麼都有，來都要用最好的；那邊的病人來，都是有健保就儘量用健保，患者去世了，還要我包「白包」；或是患者去世沒有人處理葬禮，也叫我幫忙，我常常要做這種事情，所以這是不一樣的樣態，每天這樣來來回回，我感觸很深啦！部長，你也算基層起來的，要照顧這一塊，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝委員的建議跟提醒，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員醫療專業的發言，謝謝部長的答詢。","下一位請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}