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27.96,"text":"因為我現在聽到了營區您說是營區那現在聽到說包含三軍總醫院、國防大學、海軍艦隊都有使用華為或者是相關中國製的路由器所以我想之後相關的定義還是希望局長能夠分享給其他的不管是國防部還是相關的這一個部分對因為剛剛各位說明是我們在這部分已經有做一些蠻完整的規劃那我們會把我們的經驗跟其他國軍的單位來分享"},{"start":2228.44,"end":2252.014,"text":"剛才局長您提到營區嘛對營區那我想請問喔國防院是不是營區委員指的是國防安全研究院對他應該還是在國防部整體的還是營區嘛對那我們最近有聽到說這一個營區裡面有來自中國那惠豐銀行那也是政協的這一個高層進入營區那進入營區的時候他錯置他的護照號碼這樣相關的資訊有沒有掌握"},{"start":2256.437,"end":2283.351,"text":"對 因為這部分 個案的部分國防部已經有做一些查處了啦那我想我們尊重國防部查處的狀況那對於這一些相關的內案我們也會來加強透過剛剛跟委員提到的不管是政戰局或軍安總隊在國軍的系統來增加一些宣導的一個機會因為局長因為我剛才提到這幾個案件一件接著一件那每一件他們都是不管是採購中國的這個產品或者是"},{"start":2284.031,"end":2304.574,"text":"中國政協的人是直接進入營區這一些都理論上都應該要事先查核事先排除啊但是我們現在聽起來就國防院的說法好像是還有前官員說這又沒有涉及機敏事項所以只要他們說轉述沒有涉及機敏事項那就可以進去就可以錯知護照號碼嗎"},{"start":2305.911,"end":2331.514,"text":"以我們局裡面來講我們大概一般都是從眼來查核這一方面的營區進入的一個管制我還是強調就是說這不是任何一個人的問題我想從營區到不管是哪一個單位那既然有這個制度我們就把它遵守那也不要就是說特別針對是因為哪一個研究員怎樣我們不針對哪一個研究員不針對哪一個人我們針對的是這件事情那如果要查核就查核"},{"start":2332.415,"end":2356.639,"text":"不能說這個主觀認定這涉不涉及機敏事項但是我們對之前國防部長有提到說應該就涉密的內容而不是說他的關節的大小所以如果可以排除掉那就排除掉沒有關係但如果已經有這個制度掉那就確實要執行比方說你說這個路由器那我覺得就是必須要徹底執行那如果說一些非機敏的設備現在這個中國製的設備也很多種"},{"start":2359.64,"end":2388.47,"text":"但是跟資訊相關的就請局長務必我們這個有相關的情節務必要來分享給其他的這些國防安全相關的部門對這制度面的問題對我們來加強這個要麻煩因為這個包含矽谷他們都在加大員工的審查我是希望我們的國防單位過去我在日商在企業的時候我們去各個不管只是面板產業還不是半導體產業當我們進入之前首先要看我們的身份證"},{"start":2389.448,"end":2409.333,"text":"看完身份證之後 我也沒有要涉密啊 為什麼要涉密啊進入他們對他們來講智慧的這個財產的核心 就是核心所以他們不管你 包含電腦 事先都要先這個放在那個管理室過去我們在商界的時候 商業界的時候 在做這個在日商工作的時候 就是最基本的 你進入他們的廠區喔報車號"},{"start":2412.352,"end":2433.714,"text":"然後你要把你的身份證提出來然後你要把你的電腦手機全部拿出去讓他們在那邊做檢核甚至就不能帶進去我不明白說如果只是這個過去那個時候是7年前8年前只是在面板產業就用這樣子的方式來去做核實那我們現在在國防部或者是相關的營區特別是國防院96%的預算"},{"start":2436.316,"end":2459.277,"text":"國防部提供的那我認為還是有相關的機敏性那當然他是文職人員比較多我們可以理解啦但是見為之助嘛其他的這些比較重要的營區我希望說未來還是有統一的一套系統這部分我們會非常的來注意啦那就管局來講我們自己的營區管理是用最嚴格的標準有任何的廠商進入到營區都有專人陪同然後任何的各支"},{"start":2459.497,"end":2460.458,"text":"中共增加國安法令附中風險"},{"start":2475.959,"end":2490.298,"text":"局長你認為現在國人腹中旅遊危不危險應該是這麼講我們是要先預判說我們是不是跟政界有關係那沒關係了就可以去嗎還是其實這個危險程度你是怎麼去定義的"},{"start":2491.079,"end":2514.742,"text":"因為在上一屆的立法院的專案報告我們有特別去警示因為當時是因為7月1號有中國的那個相關的反間諜法的一個法案的一個推動那以及今年又有所謂的保守國家秘密法的提出那我們還是認為說到對岸去應該要來警示我們國人可能相關的一個旅遊或經商入境的一個風險那也跟委員報告一下從"},{"start":2515.943,"end":2536.304,"text":"去年到現在大概已經有15位的國人在進入到鹿港澳的地區遭到中共的拘留審判那另外有51位的國人在入境的過程當中遭到中共的留置巡查那我們覺得案例有增加的趨勢那對於整個附入風險的提高我想我們尊重權責單位陸委會在這部分把那個"},{"start":2537.665,"end":2542.087,"text":"其實我在6月6號的時候這個是另外一個跟最開始的第一題是有關聯的我有直接質詢到說關於英國倫敦的醫院遭害"},{"start":2565.396,"end":2591.646,"text":"那其實最近應該也是這一兩天三軍總運院因為不明的原因去故障所以改人工的方式那相關的情資有沒有掌握到有沒有是由外部進來的還是只是單純的內部的故障有沒有聽到相關的情資這案子在第一時間就有進行通報那我們得到的報告的內容是排除外力侵害的可能性可能是內部系統管理的問題不過我們還是會繼續來查查實際的原因到底是什麼"},{"start":2592.026,"end":2619.393,"text":"內部管理的問題那剛好是一個很好的機會來去審視因為它是屬於我們的關鍵基礎設施關鍵基礎設施因為這一個在英國的這個倫敦的醫院我們剛剛提到6月6號我在質詢的時候就已經有提過了那就確實是從外部的因素那現在既然是內部的話那就剛好是一個做好準備我們看到第一時間在這個總醫院他們是開始採用人工的方式來去做掛號登記那我的意思是說包含我們的一些重要的關鍵基礎設施的話如果遇到"},{"start":2619.753,"end":2620.654,"text":"國安局提醒各部會要繼續加強相關機制與演練規劃"},{"start":2650.353,"end":2663.402,"text":"謝謝局長,因為其實聽局長剛才的說法那如果我們全部都落實的話那基本上之前我們剛剛提到的採購上的問題那就都不會發生了對,很多真的是在執行面的問題對,老師跟委員報告"},{"start":2665.123,"end":2693.143,"text":"所以我們同時要做一些大膽的嘗試可是其實最基礎的東西都要做好因為其實就像我們你剛剛提到的關鍵基礎設施那關鍵基礎設施的保護完善那我們現在說很多要用AI的方式用加入這個攝影機或者是部署相關的警力這些其實在最前端之前如果我們首先先確保我們這些關鍵基礎設施的使用"},{"start":2693.883,"end":2693.903,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":2724.821,"end":2728.484,"text":"接下來請沈博洋委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請局長謝謝請蔡局長"},{"start":2752.132,"end":2768.896,"text":"學長好,不好意思,因為今天下面衝突比較多,我穿得比較隨興一點。我知道今天很多人是想要來問我的部分,但是我不太想要把這個質詢台變成一個造謠大會。但是我想先從一個小案子開始。那這個案子是在講這個高雄的兵馬俑。"},{"start":2770.036,"end":2796.13,"text":"他其實有兩個層次,完全不同層次的問題第一個他是資安的疑慮我覺得這個其實還算清楚第二個就是因為看到新聞報導也有團體提出可能有這個統戰的疑慮他們提到這個宋慶林基金會因為他有前政協副主席在裡面他現在應該是理事長之類的,是主席我想問一下目前對這一件事情宋慶林基金會他在台灣舉辦活動的狀況國安局目前的掌握大概是什麼樣子"},{"start":2796.57,"end":2823.746,"text":"我想對於兩岸一些相關的一個交流只要是合法正常的交流我們大概都抱持尊重的一個態度那以委員提到這個案例他因為有治安的風險那我所知道的是在這個事情被揭露之後那主辦單位應該是科工館也有進行了一些相關查處的動作那第一時間我看他們也對外說明一旦相關的系統有涉及到中資的軟體的話那他們一定會在第一時間把它移除"},{"start":2824.426,"end":2845.781,"text":"我看相關的處置過程還算有注意到資安風險的控管好 謝謝局長因為我個人也認為這是兩件分開的事情他如果有資安的疑慮當然應該要處理但他是不是統戰其實應該是另外一件事因為他即使有這一個政協副主席前政協副主席的一個身份在但他到底在台灣是從事什麼活動這些活動有沒有違反反滲透法那又是另外一件事"},{"start":2846.161,"end":2863.039,"text":"現在看起來它是一個單純的交流但是問題就出在說如果這個交流以後繼續往下進行有人開始有一些利益的輸送等等之類的話那就可能是國安局必須要掌握的事但是就是藉由這一個我想再往下問就是這一個今天大家最關心的就是這一個"},{"start":2863.859,"end":2882.194,"text":"中媒記者丁燒這件事情這個局長一定很熟悉所以我完全可以跳過這個案例那我想問的事情是因為我在記者會的時候這是我記者會的逐字稿我那時候有說幾分證據講幾分話那我在這邊有發現一件很奇怪的事情就是因為長期我們研究過非常多類似的個案"},{"start":2882.754,"end":2907.976,"text":"那在這邊呢 以往他會接觸媒體或政論節目我很少是遇到中國記者直接是作為接觸者他大部分是透過台灣人自己透過某一個台灣人他這個人是什麼職業我們不知道但再藉由這個去接觸這個媒體所以想問一下就是現在是直接中國記者進來這件事情根據自由時報的報導這一個對國安局來講是一個不常見的現象還是已經有掌握的現象"},{"start":2909.37,"end":2925.206,"text":"對於相關的中國在台注點記者的一些相關的一個活動我想應該都有經過陸委會相關或文化部相關的一個合訂才會進來那至於他們進來之後有沒有去"},{"start":2926.307,"end":2948.705,"text":"進行一些違反他們申請來台目的的一些動作那我們國安團隊都有在注意這是第一點跟委員做說明那第二部分是針對這個個案的部分因為我們在收獲相關的情資之後也有做一些資訊的比對那因為國安局並沒有司法調查權所以我們只能把有這樣的一個樣態來移送到調查局來進行徵處那調查局也立刻進行的所謂的立案的調查"},{"start":2949.346,"end":2961.792,"text":"那因為也有其他國內的媒體人針對這案子來提告新華社的記者那所以我所知道的是高檢署也已經開始立案在偵辦所以整個案子因為進入到司法的過程我們不適合做太多公開的說明或評論"},{"start":2962.452,"end":2988.257,"text":"好 這個我沒有問題因為我知道國民黨很關心我到底有通報調查單位所以這個真的是非常無聊的一件事但是我這邊想要問兩個問題第一個就是 陸委會的問題我待會問第一個問題是他在台灣因為記者要進來他一定需要有一個對口嘛他需要有人做介紹嘛就是要有人就是類似像擔保的一個角色他才能夠進來然後去做一些他在目的內的這個行動那在這個個案裡面有沒有掌握是誰邀請他進來"},{"start":2989.823,"end":3018.356,"text":"對就...不一定要講...那個...不一定要講...我是說有沒有掌握就好對 個案的一個接待的安排或規劃我想應該由審核單位來做說明會比較詳細那我剛剛跟委員說明的是即使他們是經過個案申請到台灣來從事相關的採報的活動我們國安單位關注的重點是在於他有沒有違反當時申請來台的目的那這部分因為我們在國安團隊都有一些專案在推動那我們會持續的來注意因為在這個案子裡面呢重點是他有沒有做目的外行為嗎"},{"start":3019.016,"end":3040.821,"text":"如果他是合法合規進入到台灣然後去做相關的事情這個其實沒有事但怕是他做了目的外的行為但能夠去掌握他做目的外行為的有可能有國安團隊可能有陸委會或者文化部另外一個就是中間人因為中間人畢竟是邀請他來的如果邀請他來的人他比較能夠掌握這個人現在在做什麼嘛例如說他可能來到我"},{"start":3041.201,"end":3041.341,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3061.795,"end":3083.668,"text":"中間要怎麼去抓到假設今天他中間換了變成他有中資或者說事後才發現這個事情那應該要怎麼辦那回到這個案例其實也是一樣的意思就是說如果我們能夠掌握到是誰邀請他來這一個人理論上應該是要讓我們知道他有沒有去做目的外行為那現在我想另外問陸委會的就是說那以陸委會或者文化部現在的量能來講"},{"start":3084.548,"end":3084.688,"text":"森委員你好"},{"start":3101.67,"end":3124.803,"text":"一般陸媒在進來台灣以後他大概都是三個月一遷那因為但是陸委會跟不管是陸委會也好或是文化部也好我們沒有這樣的量能去掌握記者每一天的動態這是不可能的那在法令上面我們也不會去這樣做"},{"start":3127.11,"end":3153.919,"text":"好那所以呢在如果說他沒有辦法長期知道說這個人沒有做目的外行為的話那有可能第一個我們是要增加量能這是我在那個那場記者會後面的建議那另外一個我能夠想到的就是中間人的回報機制因為以往的像我在質詢這個像退服會啊什麼等等之類的時候也是因為知道他們中間人很多做旅行社那有哪些人做旅行社他可能比較有可能去做相關的一些統戰行為的時候這些人掌握了你能夠回報"},{"start":3154.679,"end":3179.451,"text":"那陸委會也才能夠得知﹖得知之後才能夠做採處﹖或者說任何的處分等等之類的那我一直很希望說這一個機制能夠被建立起來因為我認為是重要的那最後我還想另外一個問題就是說在這個新聞的隔一天而已報紙就刊出來說這是所謂的國安單位有說滲透台灣的這五個不同的手法第一個我還蠻熟悉的就是租用攝影棚那這個2345是目前已經有掌握到確實的個案嗎"},{"start":3181.938,"end":3198.437,"text":"因為這是媒體報導轉述國安單位那因為不是來自本局的資訊我沒有辦法做更進一步的澄清所以這個來源因為他才寫是來自於國安單位所以到底為什麼會有這一個我們並不是那麼的了解而且他也沒有包含到我們現在因為可以看到第二個是駐台人員直接對"},{"start":3198.997,"end":3200.819,"text":"媒體下指導期這個就比較符合剛剛前面討論到的微信群組這個以前有發生過這個在那個17、18、19的時候有發生過那4跟5這個部分可能是比較像是交際型的"},{"start":3214.349,"end":3242.371,"text":"那所以呢這個是我剛剛講的齁這是我們整理的各式各樣違反反滲透法的一些個案中間都有所謂的中間人齁所以很多人都一直常常在問齁說統戰的證據在哪裡齁那大家可以仔細看這全部都是啦OK嗎這全部都是統戰的證據齁而且這些呢很多都是已經被起訴的或者已經被羈押的齁這些全部都是齁案子其實非常的多所以呢有些人會說到底統戰的證據在哪裡齁我覺得我對這個當然是有點疑惑然後這一個呢就是我們以前在民間自己調查的案子齁"},{"start":3242.791,"end":3260.139,"text":"大概100多件我這邊只列出來一些些而已所以就是說這些案子真的很多但他永遠我們面臨的狀況永遠都是中間人到底是誰因為這些人不管是中國的資源他能夠到台灣來他中間一定要有一個對口那個對口其實很重要那如果我們能掌握這個對口這個對口也不是要處罰他"},{"start":3260.959,"end":3285.299,"text":"第一個可能透明化第二個就像剛剛講的如果我們知道對口這個新華社記者的單位是誰他如果能夠定期幫忙回報說在這一個月他目的內行為是做什麼然後呢他有沒有去做其他的行為如果有時候其他的行為他有一定的責任那監管單位也有一定的責任的話那這種事情就不容易發生嘛那當然我們是假設這是事實但到底調查單位會查到這個什麼樣的結果這個我們還是不明瞭啦"},{"start":3285.959,"end":3313.497,"text":"但是在這邊還是還是要說就是說我覺得從源頭從中間人來打擊我認為是一個比較好的方案那問題是這一個法令要怎麼設計我目前來講我只有設計在跟立委跟關鍵基礎設施相關的所以也很希望我們能夠在休會期的時候跟國安局跟陸委會再度討論這方面的法案要怎麼設計看能不能在9月之後我們提出一些針對中間人的一些做法而且跟反滲透法是有不同的"},{"start":3313.757,"end":3314.438,"text":"我不知道有沒有這樣的機會"},{"start":3343.837,"end":3366.06,"text":"所以跟委員說明的是我們一直希望能堅持一個比較完整全面的一個國安偵訪的一個體系避免中共滲透謝謝委員的舉行謝謝這方面我是了解就是說以現有的法律不管是國安無法還是反滲透法但我擔心的就是譬如說像新華社這一類的案子我們先不要把他無法發聲假設今天有類似像這樣的案子他是一個灰色地帶因為畢竟按照兩岸條例現在的規定其實就是請他走而已"},{"start":3366.6,"end":3367.001,"text":"接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢"},{"start":3398.052,"end":3410.933,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請國安局的局長然後文化部的政務次長請蔡局長、文化部次長好 謝謝主席 委員好"},{"start":3415.454,"end":3439.666,"text":"兩位好其實這個問題我上禮拜就想問只不過說上禮拜外交國防委員會就莫名其妙也沒開會事實上就宣布開會了休息到天荒地老後來就莫名其妙上會了上禮拜我相信局長也很辛苦在下面枯坐了非常非常的久今天有機會就是要跟局長詢問的是過去這個禮拜"},{"start":3441.927,"end":3463.475,"text":"從我揭發以來越來越多人關心就是說中國的資通訊產品用在我們的軍事要塞裡面這件事情很嚴重之前國安會就說過了八大關鍵基礎設施禁用中國設備那我們的軍事要塞算是八大關鍵基礎設施嗎?"},{"start":3466.489,"end":3477.601,"text":"請國安局長在我們的八大關鍵基礎設施主要是依照2020年的滋通安全管理法所列定的這個我知道那裡面有軍事要塞嗎對 裡面沒有特別去強調軍事要塞那你覺得這樣對嗎"},{"start":3479.168,"end":3507.615,"text":"因為這主要是涉及到行政院跟國防部把軍事要塞跟關鍵基礎設施他有做特別不同的處理那沒有關係嘛第一個事情是這個問題其實我之前就問過了啦我們的軍事要塞竟然沒有列在關鍵基礎設施我又覺得非常的扯啦非常多教授也對這個事情提出非常猛烈的批判但軍事要塞他的重要性絕對不會亞於關鍵基礎設施這個局長你認同嗎我同意同意嗎好"},{"start":3508.855,"end":3537.494,"text":"所以國安局之前在2022年的時候就說中國的自通訊軟體有嚴重的治安危險這個是在2022年的時候就已經跟全體國人講過了結果沒有想到我們國家拿納稅人30億去投資的綠能國家隊這不是普通的公司這家公司本來要掛啦虧了一百多億要掛啦"},{"start":3538.935,"end":3563.083,"text":"結果我們的民進黨政府拿納稅的30億本來是國發基金變成紓困基金紓困給這家公司以後從我們的國發基金進去到現在又虧了100多億這個是國發會要處理的問題但讓我詫異的事情是什麼我們的綠能國家隊是不是變成第五縱隊我為什麼會這樣講既然在裡面裝中國製的逆變器"},{"start":3569.435,"end":3596.06,"text":"這我很早以前就揭露也請他們去查結果查了以後我們的我也不曉得國防部真的有把國家安全放在心上嗎查下去以後回報的說對他裝的是逆變器在南洋指揮部南洋指揮部是軍事要塞我們的國軍弟兄在那邊大概有3000個人結果的後來發現還不是"},{"start":3599.81,"end":3608.465,"text":"只有逆變器中國製的路由器、工業電腦全部都放在這裡面從國安局的角度來講這件事嚴不嚴重"},{"start":3610.233,"end":3637.895,"text":"我想就那個綠能的發展是國家重要政策政府的相關部會包括國防部在配合過程當中也應該要注意到一些資通訊產品安全的問題這顯然就沒注意嘛應該要注意嘛顯然沒注意嘛不過也跟委員說明一下我們知道的是在契約當中好像也有提到類似要進行這就是我今天要請教國安局的重點啦你們知道了這件事情了以後到目前為止採取了什麼行動"},{"start":3639.042,"end":3663.854,"text":"你們有沒有去了解裝了多久傳輸了多少data到目前為止有了解這件事嗎有我們去了解相關的狀況那也跟國防部這邊有保持聯繫那我們會把我們了解以後的結果是什麼我們會提供給國防部來查處那對外的說明由主管機關國防部來對外說你們了解的結果有沒有涉及到國家機密方不方便給所有的委員知道你們查處的結果因為我很關心啊"},{"start":3664.827,"end":3672.593,"text":"那個不是裝在裡面被抓到拆下來就算了耶裝上去以後到被抓到為止中間這段時間發生了什麼事"},{"start":3674.741,"end":3702.35,"text":"你們國安局說這是非常嚴重的國安威脅那從抓上去以後到現在發生什麼事顯然國安局就有責任要查處嘛我應該沒說錯吧主責機關還是在國防部啦那國防部調查過程需要我們來提供相關的資訊資源沒有關係國安局到底有沒有去查處 有還是沒有剛你說有 現在聽起來好像是國防部的事對 沒有 主管的全責在國防部這個我理解 國安局有沒有去查處"},{"start":3702.79,"end":3706.212,"text":"我們會建議由國防部統一所有的資訊來對委員好沒有關係但我今天的關鍵問題是什麼我們的滋通安全管理法第5條明明就有訂嘛"},{"start":3727.065,"end":3747.1,"text":"制定各機關對危害國家滲透安全產品限制使用原則那裡面第三點說主管機關因機於國家安全等等等等然後呢要去提供你們核定的產品清單那核定的產品清單現在在哪裡你瞭解嗎這應該要由國防部來發布相關的產品清單那個請一下陸委會的副主委好嗎"},{"start":3759.208,"end":3776.4,"text":"請副主委自動安全管理法它的主管機關叫行政院但我相信行政院自己不會做行政院一定是統合下面所有的部會把這個清單列出來來請教一下副主委目前這個清單在哪裡"},{"start":3777.935,"end":3804.868,"text":"自動安全的主管機關應該是數位部所以這個是由數位部來統籌沒有關係我到時候我會去問數位部但你們就看自動安全管理法它的主管機關寫的是誰寫的是行政院寫的是行政院所以我也呼籲一下行政院行政院那個清單到底在哪裡讓大家知道一下但除了這個清單以外下一個問題"},{"start":3805.948,"end":3810.271,"text":"滋通安全管理法我們違反了以後來請教一下國安局局長我們有滋通安全管理法嘛滋通安全管理法有授權嘛授權去訂行政命令去做這個清單那我現在問題來了明明不能用卻用了他的法律效果是什麼"},{"start":3828.462,"end":3850.599,"text":"對,他有兩部分,因為部分是委員現在在問的法律的效果那另外一個就是沒有關係,你先告訴我法律效果就好了他的法律效果是什麼?因為我看了半天我找不到我們有這個法,也授權主管機關去列禁止清單那現在抓到了,然後我就在找法律效果啊抓到以後又怎樣?抓到以後沒有法律效果啊"},{"start":3854.5,"end":3877.462,"text":"不要不要緊啊還是這個法律效果寫在什麼地方是我不清楚的來請局長對這是我剛剛在講的說這一部分法律效果以外還有第一個部分就是契約在契約的過程當中有沒有一些來我們來看你如果按照契約喔要去規範涉及到國家安全這麼嚴重的事情啊那這件事情本身就嚴重了我再說一次喔"},{"start":3878.542,"end":3903.925,"text":"涉及到國安威脅的事情如果我們在法律上是要透過契約去規範那這件事情是非常嚴重的事情怎麼會透過契約去處理有關於會涉及到國安威脅的事呢你違反了在法律上就應該要有法律效果結果搞了半天沒有法律效果沒有法律效果所以這些廠商沒藥沒金嘛"},{"start":3905.694,"end":3925.202,"text":"你訂你的規範你列你的清單我不要遵守又怎樣到時候被抓到了啊被抓到了就像我們國防部現在的態度一樣啊軟趴趴軟趴趴軟到快要跪下去啦被抓到怎麼辦拜託你把他換一換拜託你把他換一換"},{"start":3928.601,"end":3955.264,"text":"如果是這個樣子在面對有關於會對於國安造成極大威脅的中共滲透性產品的話這樣的管制啊是出現嚴重的問題啊竟然透過契約局長你贊不贊成我們尊重委員的意見這不是尊重我的意見啊你作為主管機關一個國防安全一個國家安全這麼嚴重的事情違反沒有法律效果"},{"start":3956.294,"end":3977.281,"text":"通過契約來規範這樣的規範模式 局長贊成嗎我想這部分可能還要行政院這邊再做相關進一步的評估行政院這邊還要再做評估啊沒有關係今天陸委會的主委也在旁邊了啦我相信副主委應該會把這個意見反映給行政院吧副主委把這個意見反映給行政院沒有問題吧可以齁好 謝謝"},{"start":3983.179,"end":3987.201,"text":"接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們請國安局陸委會文化部請國安局蔡局長陸委會副主委還有文化部政策謝謝"},{"start":4010.267,"end":4011.328,"text":"這個自由時報的盯梢案到目前已經第13天了"},{"start":4017.645,"end":4041.29,"text":"全國人民都在看當初登了這麼大一個版面到底是真是假是不是假新聞影響台灣人民對於事情的判斷我要先問一件事情先問一下我們國安局長好了那個沈博洋委員說有跟國安局通報是嗎他沒有說跟國安局通報他有啊他沒有說國安局那他是跟誰通報他是說國安單位國安單位是怎樣國安會"},{"start":4044.33,"end":4063.059,"text":"國安單位有哪一些?只有由沈委員去對外說明,他怎麼通報?沒有,所以你們國安局有沒有接到沈博洋委員的通報?國安局不會針對我們的情緒來源對外說明,這是法律規定因為他講說他有找你們嘛沒有講找我們他講國安單位,所以沒有找國安局"},{"start":4064.039,"end":4081.627,"text":"有沒有找國安局或給哪個單位應該由省委員來對外說明那就國安局來講我們的情緒來源不會對外說明所以你在我假設喔因為你說你不能對外說明嘛我假設你有接到這個陳情案件之後國安局對後續有沒有任何的處置跟處理或調查沒有辦法回答這個假設的問題但"},{"start":4083.409,"end":4095.82,"text":"所以沒有我問的是在這件事情被報導出來之前兩個月內這件事情被報導出來的兩個月內國安局有沒有針對所謂的丁燒案做過任何的調查我這樣問好這個問題我們在"},{"start":4098.783,"end":4125.888,"text":"上個禮拜的專報也有對外公開說明也就是說我們有接到相關的一個情報案什麼時候接到我們之前就有接到之前是多之前那這個我們沒有辦法來對外說明因為已經在偵辦了已經送到調查局立案在偵辦所以你們是在兩個月前就知道的嗎另外也因為有媒體人把這個案子已經提到了所以檢察官也在偵辦你不能什麼都推給檢察官嘛我問你的是如果你今天在兩個月前就知道了那為什麼五月的時候還可以讓趙柏離開台灣"},{"start":4128.969,"end":4149.046,"text":"你們是在趙博離開台灣之前知道掌握情報的還是在他離開以後?也就是我們在有相關的資訊因為國安局並沒有司法調查權我們要是有這樣的資訊必須要由司法機關去確認他到底有沒有相關違法的事實跟相關的事證所以你們了解這件事情沒有國安局接到資訊的時候是在趙博離開台灣以前還是離開台灣以後?"},{"start":4154.23,"end":4164.793,"text":"我們一開始接到就已經通報到相關調查局來進行偵辦那你還是沒有回答我的問題啊以前還是以後這差別很大欸對那這就有檢調單位來釐清有檢調單位所以你們就不死都不說就對了好沒關係下一位我們陸委會這一篇新聞裡面寫到的是說資深媒體人的報導請問你們已經去向還有文化部啦你們已經去向自由時報詢問資深媒體人是誰了嗎"},{"start":4182.506,"end":4188.214,"text":"有沒有向自由時報詢問他報導裡面所稱呼的資深媒體人是哪一位呢?"},{"start":4189.176,"end":4216.303,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部的主管主管的部分就是邀請單位然後和被邀請的新華社記者所以我這兩個單位我們都有問你都問了但是自由時報的部分我們是另外詢問另外詢問確實有詢問詢問那資深媒體人是哪一位他有告訴你嗎他們自由時報的表示是他們所報的新聞都有所本"},{"start":4217.335,"end":4235.146,"text":"而且經過合理的查證基於新聞倫理他不便透露消息來源所以即便跟國安相關的事情國安局長當我們的現在的陸委會的調查當我們現在陸委會的調查自由時報說我要保護我的新聞來源可是它是一個國安問題的時候我們也無法可管"},{"start":4235.526,"end":4248.616,"text":"不會 陸委會跟文化部進行的是行政調查那我剛剛跟委員檢調在進行的是司法調查好 那所以陸委會主委再回來副主委再回來所以他不告訴你資深媒體人是誰他只告訴你說有所本"},{"start":4249.424,"end":4271.568,"text":"他不會透露消息來源我想任何一個媒體大概都會這樣請問他指涉的新聞台來我們看一下現在有哪些新聞台他指涉的新聞台是哪一台就你們現在所了解的掌握已經13天囉不要告訴我這些新聞台裡面你們沒有掌握自由時報所影射的是哪一家我們當然知道哪一家"},{"start":4273.087,"end":4299.615,"text":"就是東森新聞台東森新聞台你們指控他們指控的是東森新聞台嗎不是他們指控啦他們的新聞所描述的是東森新聞台裡面有一名記者來自新華社叫做趙博會在他們的攝影棚裡面跟來賓說你要講什麼然後跟製作單位說你要講什麼他的意思是這樣就你們現在的掌握對吧是好來我們看一下"},{"start":4300.595,"end":4304.136,"text":"這個前面一張圖這是我去找到的東森攝影棚棚內就是長這樣FD副控室在這裡然後呢所有的包含是主播、節目製作跟來賓在這裡我個人上過這麼多次的東森節目包含被指控的那個我個人從來沒有看過所以我想要請問陸委會跟陸委會喔"},{"start":4323.361,"end":4338.557,"text":"現在他們自由時報所指控的趙柏他當時是站在哪裡你們有沒有去調查這個案情他是站在哪裡跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部所做的只能是行政調查對所以我們有向東森新聞台詢問過"},{"start":4341.521,"end":4355.918,"text":"他們給我的回答是記者在報導之前就有向他們查證但是他們在接受記者查證的時候就已經否認是 這我都知道啊但是我要問的是你們向自由時報"},{"start":4356.739,"end":4372.511,"text":"就陸委會跟文化部所做的行政調查只能夠...我知道但是你們有沒有問自由時報說他們所在這些內容裡面寫到的這個趙博所在的位置是在哪裡嗎他可能是在對不起我要走過來"},{"start":4373.171,"end":4384.781,"text":"他可能是在來賓這邊他可能是在主持人這邊他可能在場外這邊他可能在FD副控室這邊你們今天既然要做行政調查你們有沒有問過自由時報這個問題這跟資深媒體人是誰沒有關係唷我們只是想問這個趙博他在自由時報的指控當中他站在哪裡指揮"},{"start":4397.304,"end":4415.858,"text":"委員我想我們都很清楚媒體他不會去回答我們這樣的問題為什麼因為他這個他保護新聞來源所以沒有新聞來源的問題我們是問他所指控的他裡面寫得很清楚喔他說趙博啊他會去跟來賓啊說要去你看喔這裡講什麼對來賓名單此手畫腳此人也在棚內來我們看一下棚內"},{"start":4422.222,"end":4426.586,"text":"盆內就長這樣一個外面一個裡面哪一個是他們指涉的盆內這個難道我們的陸委會不能去問嗎?文化部不能去問嗎?這跟新聞的來源保護有什麼關係?他新聞裡面都寫成這樣了欸我想這個如果司法跟檢調如果有在調查的話我想他們會去釐清那你行政調查呢?你們不是在做行政調查嗎?"},{"start":4445.711,"end":4450.615,"text":"沒有問這個問題嗎?你自己上過這麼多節目的人你沒有問過這個問題嗎?你沒有想過這個問題嗎?行政調查的部分我們確實權限非常有限你沒有問他這個問題對不對?沒有問過那你有沒有考慮再問他這個問題?我現在直接問你你沒有考慮再去問一次自由時報你當初寫的報導所謂的在棚內是在這裡還是在這裡?"},{"start":4472.729,"end":4490.677,"text":"報告委員這個案件的細節我想這個已經超出行政調查的權限問這個也超出我們再看一下前面的報導我不能接受你的回答他這裡寫叫什麼此人在棚內然後呢逐一介紹來賓是否在找腳本走準備的CG有吳兆元來計畫跟來賓指手畫腳向來賓轉達希望講的角度來下一張"},{"start":4499.315,"end":4502.002,"text":"所以很簡單嘛 控制CG的在這裡嘛 對不對"},{"start":4503.771,"end":4513.235,"text":"來賓在這裡嘛對不對你有沒有問過他他當天新聞寫的報導這個所謂的大陸人我不管他是不是趙博他在哪裡出現的這難道不是行政調查可以問的問題嗎這哪有涉及到什麼司法跟檢調呢你都說你去問過他自身媒體人是誰你都說你知道他們懷疑的叫做東森新聞那為什麼東森新聞被懷疑的這個棚你沒有去問他這個趙博他站在哪裡"},{"start":4533.889,"end":4547.783,"text":"可不可以補問?這個部分我希望由司法單位來理解為什麼?你們在保護什麼?不不,這個已經超出我們的調查範圍超出在哪裡?超出在哪裡?你跟我說,超出在哪裡?我們就算問,他們也不會回答"},{"start":4549.906,"end":4575.815,"text":"你不能說因為你假設人家不會回答你就不問了啊你是做行政調查的人我可以假設對方不回答的問題我就不問他嗎就像你不是說你有問對方資深媒體人是誰但他不講嗎我今天問的問題很簡單你們忘記問也就算了你今天不問他這個問題到底你今天是要保護自由時報還是要保護所有大眾看到了那個新聞說要我們知道是真的新聞還是假的新聞"},{"start":4577.159,"end":4584.661,"text":"報告委員 您剛提示的這些是有關案件的細節不是細節 它自由時報 抱歉不是細節 它新聞就有寫了嘛它新聞自己寫得這麼清楚 然後你們還不問這就是很奇怪的一個疑點嘛這就是很奇怪的一件事到底在保護誰好 文化部"},{"start":4600.171,"end":4609.64,"text":"如果最後確定自由時報做假新聞﹖這已經是第13天了﹖你們政府有夠無能的﹖13天還調查不出這個報導是真的新聞還是假的新聞﹖請問如果最後確定是假新聞的話﹖如何處置跟委員說明第一個就是我們沒有辦法回答假設性這是真新聞還是假新聞我說如果是假的話"},{"start":4623.51,"end":4647.282,"text":"第二我們會針對如果這位記者真的做出了有危害國家安全的事情我們會撤銷他的記者證同時也會造成接下來新華社駐點的記者的申請我問的是如果自由時報報的是假新聞我們的文化部該如何處理剛剛完全沒有回答我的問題跟委員說明我們恐怕沒有辦法在這裡指涉任何一家的媒體報導的是假新聞"},{"start":4647.742,"end":4655.533,"text":"如果碰到任何一家媒體 不要講自由時報任何一家媒體做出假新聞的時候 文化部要做什麼處理"},{"start":4657.11,"end":4668.572,"text":"跟委員說明文化部並沒有管理媒體目前台灣的媒體是寫新聞自由的狀態所以NCC還至少會管一下所以報紙沒關係報紙可以造謠還是NCC可以管?NCC可以管這個嗎?媒體應該比您更在意他們的新聞是真是假是啊不是我告訴你喔是東森新聞很在意他們被抹紅喔寫假新聞的人可不在意啊我要問那請問NCC可以管這個嗎?"},{"start":4688.054,"end":4710.539,"text":"NCC來NCC來你可以管這個嗎假新聞的話委員好我們只針對廣電三法規管對嘛廣電三法文化部再回來我最後問你現在是我不講自由時報如果有任何一家報紙寫了很誇張的假新聞文化部怎麼辦相關的法律依據在哪裡要如何懲罰"},{"start":4712.21,"end":4740.327,"text":"還是跟委員說明目前台灣是屬言論自由的狀態所以他的新聞內容如果有傷害了譬如說傷害了國安就會依照國安的方式判斷所以要看他傷害的利益者是誰按照他所傷害的損害利益去進行追訴跟賠償那誰要負責追訴要怎麼追訴看當事人所侵害的利益是誰的利益就由誰來做利益所以文化部會罰錢"},{"start":4742.188,"end":4744.652,"text":"法則、相關的法律規定拿出來那誰是?那所以現在報紙寫了假設報紙寫了假假新聞有什麼法條可以讓他們負責?依據他所損害的利益來做權力的主張那一方"},{"start":4759.492,"end":4763.034,"text":"所以文化部沒有任何組織的辦法嗎?所以我們在這裡有任何的媒體主管機關嗎?都叫來這麼多人了,來如果有的話回答一下好不好?"},{"start":4783.12,"end":4812.012,"text":"沒有嘛所以這就是為什麼報紙開始揭曉是假新聞的原因嘛我的問題就問到這裡但是我要向所有的國人朋友呼籲一件事情NCC它至少針對內容它有在管制它有一個SOP不管我們認同不認同今天在報紙上面這麼明顯的調查不到的很多問題沒有問的寫了假新聞的在中華民國無法可管這就是我覺得最劣質最糟糕的情況謝謝"},{"start":4814.612,"end":4823.197,"text":"好,謝謝,這也是國會為什麼需要有調查權的原因了接下來,請黃仁委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請黃局長還有陸委會"},{"start":4842.234,"end":4857.629,"text":"請國安局蔡局長還有陸委會副主委黃委員長你好今天我們在延續習小新剛剛所提的大陸駐台記者盯梢台灣的政論的節目我請問一下陸委會是"},{"start":4864.335,"end":4887.484,"text":"找不到爆料者目前有沒有查到證據不排除可能有一些證據那請問一下國安局長陸委會不排除可能有一些證據是什麼意思那到底是有些證據還是沒有證據但現在硬要找證據那梁主委說沒有查到證據一下子又說不排除"},{"start":4888.985,"end":4911.295,"text":"有一些政績如果今天涉及到記者已經離台那副主委找不到爆料者國人被這一些自相矛盾邏輯的說法弄得迷迷糊糊也造成了這個執政黨現在在做的是故意要讓大家搞不清楚狀況"},{"start":4912.895,"end":4935.211,"text":"用政治操作讓國人相互猜疑製造社會的分裂這就是本席現在執行的中共不只對我們有認知作戰我看執政黨對我們內部認知作戰到底是什麼一回事現在都自相矛盾國人看得迷迷糊糊"},{"start":4937.405,"end":4963.06,"text":"報告委員這個陸委會跟文化部所能做的是行政調查所謂行政調查就是說我們現在是追溯性的然後去詢問相關當事人那這些相關當事人給我們的回答到目前為止我們所得到的就是東森新聞他是否認的新華社方面呢他也否認"},{"start":4963.939,"end":4987.315,"text":"那自由時報他說這個保護消息來源所以不方便透露那這個部分從行政調查的全責範圍來講我們只能夠做到這裡那接下來其他部分大概就要由司法跟國安去做所以我當然不能夠說行政調查沒有查到的東西就不存在"},{"start":4987.975,"end":4998.821,"text":"所以不排除可能有一些證據但是絕對不會製造證據從行政調查的角度來說是沒有證據行政調查是找不到證據這就是因為你把國人弄得糊糊塗塗的造成了很多的一些狀況"},{"start":5013.248,"end":5015.069,"text":"行政調查的部分我們已經基本上完成了"},{"start":5033.496,"end":5053.308,"text":"那完成了你們要做後續的一個報告嗎就跟國人交代一下就是說到底你們有沒有屬實找到這樣的一個作為我們會就行政調查的部分讓大家知道但是基本上就是我剛剛所報告的大概的內容就是這樣"},{"start":5054.67,"end":5068.531,"text":"認知作戰不要常常對著我們自己人我們認知作戰是我們是要共同對外以上這是我的本席所跟您報告的那另外就是有關於國安"},{"start":5070.62,"end":5089.386,"text":"關於大家國人關心的就是大靜滿88號業界的這個捕魚在7月2號晚上遭到大陸這個海警的扣留目前台灣有一個一名是台籍的這個台灣的船長"},{"start":5090.166,"end":5110.598,"text":"另外一名是台灣的船員有三名是外界的船員那請問一下國人關心的目前因為常常現在在海上常常發生了一個被扣留要不然是被來衝撞甚至日本查扣了我們的這個船員"},{"start":5111.431,"end":5137.664,"text":"等等但是你這個大禁滿的88號的遺傳目前你們有沒有跟對岸有正面性的來做一個交換意見那甚至如何把這些保障這些遺傳現在很多的家庭就已經是擔心我們國家執政黨有沒有這個能力處理"},{"start":5139.208,"end":5162.054,"text":"對,就委員提到這個個案來講那政府的立場應該行政院也有對外說明那一個部分是海上的這些海事活動我們漁民的海事活動只要合法的話政府會提供權力的一個協助跟保護那假如進入到比較敏感的水域的話可能我們的漁民也要注意一下當地國家的法令的規範現在可能會對,個案的部分局長,我現在跟你報告"},{"start":5163.143,"end":5187.825,"text":"現在可能會常常會有可能會發生但是現在造成了很多傳言的家庭除了他的收入已經造成了困難第二個現在他可能面臨面臨他的家人會失去他的家人那我們政府如何因應如果常常會發生這樣的事情要怎麼辦"},{"start":5188.766,"end":5195.447,"text":"那我們政府有沒有作為那讓我們的國人百姓有安定之心丸啊"},{"start":5198.012,"end":5222.759,"text":"這部分剛剛有跟委員說明了也就是說漁民的作業水域還是要注意一下漁市作業的安全特別是到敏感的水域那假如有進入到其他國家行政管轄的水域那更要注意到當地的法令規定那以這個案子來講因為涉及到對岸的福祉休餘期所以這部分可能我們以後要特別再提醒漁民要注意那至於個案的營救的部分我所知道的是陸委會跟海巡署都有跟相關的對口在積極的洽詢"},{"start":5224.859,"end":5235.045,"text":"過去有一個不成文的規定在兩岸過去裡面還會有一個良性的互動的時候不會那麼強硬的扣留傳言"},{"start":5236.602,"end":5263.895,"text":"原則上是一個警告沒有錯但是會隨時都會釋放出來把傳言能夠讓他安心的回台然後不要造成家庭的擔憂可是現在會常常會發生可是你們又無能的去處理如何跟兩岸之間做一個雙向的溝通安心的把傳言帶回來現在目前只是這件事情的發生"},{"start":5264.495,"end":5275.15,"text":"那下一次呢如果再發生的話那我們國人又怎麼樣的對我們的執政黨放心的交付給執政黨相信他們的作為呢"},{"start":5277.187,"end":5306.278,"text":"對,兩岸在發生這樣的一個漁事的問題以後然後雙方還是會有一些管道來進行一些現況的一個瞭解那這部分應該陸委會跟海巡署都已經有在接洽過程當中我希望你們處理得盡快給國內一個交代要不然現在人是惶惶那另外就是公廟攘紅又囤這個彈藥的問題我想請國安局在民進黨中國事務部今年的6月起刑"},{"start":5307.3,"end":5325.805,"text":"這個中國對台界限及統戰滲透的座談會也指出北京藉由馬祖宮廟、里長等地方統戰更確實達到影響民眾投票行為的界限效果那另外就是我們在簽訂但要"},{"start":5327.126,"end":5341.815,"text":"一屯點的自研協定．局長認為會不會有國安的餘力．因為國防部的後備指揮部．在日前發函給苗栗多間的公廟．那請問會不會有國安的餘力．"},{"start":5342.728,"end":5357.752,"text":"好想兩岸的宗教公廟的交流只要是合法的那我們都予以尊重那不過也要必須要提醒的是在交流過程當中中共還是會有一些政治上統戰的操作那這是我們要提醒我們國人的那另一部分是法律的部分"},{"start":5358.112,"end":5382.614,"text":"那假如在交流過程當中中共有刻意要運用我們的公廟的相關的網絡來進行借選或進行發展組織的話那這會違反我們的法律要件那這部分我也提醒在交流過程當中我們公廟要注意的那至於適不適合要在公廟來屯放一些彈藥那這部分可能由國防部業管單位來對外說明比較恰當不過你們這個要弄清楚現在公廟的人也是人心惶惶"},{"start":5383.769,"end":5406.942,"text":"因為現在大家都說臺灣的公廟都被中共滲透了那這些廟住住此不會不只會成為中共的滲透的這個突破點那恐怕也會在暫時成為第五縱隊啊結果我們的政府一邊懷疑公廟的一個忠誠度另外一邊又要公廟配合暫時的"},{"start":5408.302,"end":5430.841,"text":"純犯了帶藥,這難道不會是國安的風險?所以這個,局長,你們要化解這樣的一個餘力啊現在很多宮廟,你們簽訂了,又要懷疑它是不是又是抹紅,然後滲透什麼樣怎麼樣的一個狀況也造成他們對這個事情上,對我們國安不滿"},{"start":5436.805,"end":5454.315,"text":"正常合法的宗教交流我們都尊重這是我們一開始講的基本原則這也是我們民主國家的價值但是宗教自由也不應該變成是中共對台統戰滲透的護身符所以我們會拿捏好這個分寸謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":5455.91,"end":5478.107,"text":"這個是無證據的涉及我相信每一個百姓都是無涉及的涉及的被污蔑的我剛才在強調合法正常的交流我們都絕對尊重這部分沒有問題好 以上 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝黃委員謝謝局長下面我們請馬文君委員發言謝謝"},{"start":5486.103,"end":5492.126,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請關局蔡局長還有陸委會我們副主委好謝謝主席麻煩早謝謝局長還有副主委今天我們很多委員關切的問題大概都是目前也是國人非常關心的那因為上個禮拜突然就把整個會議"},{"start":5514.977,"end":5515.138,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5532.652,"end":5553.622,"text":"上週發生澎湖籍的漁船在金門海域被大陸海警船帶回大陸滯留的這樣的一個狀況因為接下來還有港服養的漁船其實也被日本抓走了可是很快的用罰款的方式就可以把它解決那現在澎湖籍的大金滿的這個部分"},{"start":5558.224,"end":5573.992,"text":"局長跟陸委會怎麼看或者要怎麼處理因為局長在接受第一時間接受採訪的時候是有提到說這是一個不尋常的案例然後又說中共可能藉由於事的扣押行政裁法來展現對台灣的管轄權"},{"start":5577.653,"end":5605.211,"text":"還有政府的立場等等其實在第一時間局長有這樣提到可是接下來跟日本的處置模式好像又不太一樣那對於行政管轄權也好或者他的休餘期也好這個過去每年都有所以在過去是沒有發生的狀況今年發生了我們就已經進到現在的階段我們國安局局長您有什麼樣的不同的看法嗎"},{"start":5605.951,"end":5629.946,"text":"對,而那天也是從兩個面向來跟媒體做說明第二部分是法律的面向那法律的面向因為有涉及到是不是我們的漁船有進入到中共的管轄水域那違反當地的法規而遭到打敗局長這個很明確,我想不要再把時間花在這裡第二部分是政治的面向,也就是委員現在正在關注的會不會這些個案背後反映的是中共希望來凸顯在台海地區的管轄權"},{"start":5630.706,"end":5644.363,"text":"然後來對我們的政府進行施壓那這部分也是我們正在觀察跟研判的因為他還要看這個個案以來這幾天中共在一些爭議訊息的操作還有微波效應的處理我們才能夠判斷他的政治意圖到底是什麼"},{"start":5645.034,"end":5650.115,"text":"因為我們從之前就是可能有撞船事件造成了兩個大陸漁民死亡的這個案件一直到3月份有一個士官釣魚不慎迷航到大陸到現在也還留置在那裡我們也一籌莫展又發生了這樣的漁船的事故事件然後被留置到現在我們也沒有辦法處理可是相對於像日本因為台灣"},{"start":5671.94,"end":5693.994,"text":"我們的所有的漁民他作業的場域其實都是有風險或者重疊爭議的海域非常多包括菲律賓之前廣大信號也曾經有船長被打死所以其實我們面臨的包括日本也是可是我們對於日本顯然我們好像都是他們說了算"},{"start":5695.135,"end":5708.299,"text":"對於大陸我們到現在目前為止我們現在還沒有辦法把我們的人不管是救回來也好或者讓他們平安的回來也好到現在好像所有事件我剛剛講的都還沒有辦法發生"},{"start":5711.02,"end":5717.063,"text":"對這些於事糾紛的處理我想政府的相關單位這不管是陸委會海巡署或外交部他們都會針對不同的國家相關的一個個案那個過去沒有發生現在為什麼發生我們在乎的是這個因為過去有默契我說每年他都有休餘期我們的這一海域或傳統作業漁場既然我們一開始我們很清楚的知道那是傳統的作業漁場表示我們一直都是這樣子在那裡生活的"},{"start":5737.714,"end":5740.457,"text":"所以對於漁民來說其實他們傷害是最大的他們現在無所適從他們只要一出門都有可能有風險可是國家沒有辦法保護他們這個才是國安單位其實要非常慎重考量的另外就是國安局對於陸方的轉變這個是賴總統就職以後的"},{"start":5756.993,"end":5773.686,"text":"兩國論述還是美國大選的蝴蝶效應還是中非南海衝突後的邊際效應還是中俄朝三方結盟以後東北亞局勢轉變再加上美軍逐漸轉移第一島鏈兵力到第二島鏈以後讓陸方有了底氣像這幾個理由"},{"start":5775.58,"end":5780.044,"text":"局長你有什麼看法?因為過去沒有這樣發生,現在發生了那這些剛剛說的這些理由有沒有可能是現在的變化,局勢的變化?對阿,剛我有提到一些總體地緣政治發展的動態這部分我們尊重,但是我們也確實有注意到"},{"start":5792.176,"end":5809.037,"text":"最近中共的海警單位不只是在台海地區在東海、南海動作也都非常的大包括萬頓級的海巡艦也是到日本海域去巡弋那另外一艘萬頓級海巡艦也才剛巡弋完南海地區所以現在國際社會對於中國在海事上的一個擴張的動作都非常的關注"},{"start":5810.406,"end":5827.15,"text":"國際的關注我們都很清楚我們在乎的是我們的人民還有我們的漁民因為我們一出去就回不來了到目前為止都是這樣所以這是國安單位應該要給的答案而不是告訴我們現在整個周邊的情勢跟國際局勢所以局長簡單說我們有什麼樣的一個分析的作為嗎"},{"start":5831.811,"end":5859.34,"text":"對,在這部分中共在海上的灰色地帶的操作確實最近的評次是有比較高我剛剛在乎的,我們在乎的是我們的人民還有漁民有沒有什麼樣盈利的作為有,這部分我們也會繼續的來在我們的行政管轄的海域來加強相關的巡查那保護我們漁民合法的海事的活動現在人呢人的部分,陸委會好像已經有積極在聯繫當中"},{"start":5862.946,"end":5874.47,"text":"報告委員,因為這件事情基本上是屬於中共現在宣布的休餘劑那過去為什麼不會?應該是這樣講,就是說要看他們對於海上執法的力道跟政策那現在力道變得很強,是為了什麼?"},{"start":5887.927,"end":5888.669,"text":"其實我們的漁業署"},{"start":5892.469,"end":5907.398,"text":"每年5月也會配合因為對方宣布休漁期所以我們也會漁業署也會叫漁民說要注意對方宣布休漁期那現在因為過去也有發生過去大概就是驅離現在是把船都拖走了我們現在是問那我們現在怎麼辦因為日本你可以跟他談然後人家說要賠多少我們就賠了可是現在對於陸方他們的"},{"start":5920.106,"end":5942.434,"text":"是不是有要求或者怎麼要求或者我們應該怎麼讓我們的漁民或者包括我們的國人之前那個士官甚至國防部都廣開方便讓他直接退伍了他已經不具軍人的身份可是我們現在可以怎麼樣讓他們回來平安的回來我覺得第一個我還是要呼籲一下就是說有跟他們談嗎"},{"start":5944.87,"end":5965.034,"text":"陸委會有跟他們談嗎?是有各種管道那現在的問題是這樣因為所謂的違反休餘劑的這個行為他在中共的法律裡面他是可以判到三年以下或者拘役或者罰金等等就是看他要用什麼樣的方法陸委會有跟他們談過了嗎?"},{"start":5971.815,"end":5994.051,"text":"我們有各種管道有談到現在他們怎麼說因為不要講法律就他們怎麼說現在都還沒有明確的消息沒有消息沒有明確的消息所以管道不管用還是應該是說我覺得可能他們也沒有很明確的決定那個軍人呢"},{"start":5995.457,"end":6007.623,"text":"就是現在不具軍人身份的那個士官3月份那位胡姓士官我們還是一再呼籲就是這是人道其實完全沒有理由扣押4個月是所以有什麼樣的做法"},{"start":6015.07,"end":6040.197,"text":"我們知道他怎麼樣因為包括陳玉珍委員他都跟家屬都過去探視照理說我們陸委會在過去不管海基會也好陸委會也好我們用非常多的管道而且是明確的正式的管道其實可以去談判我們現在對於不斷不斷不斷發生未來還是會有因為現在周邊的情勢更緊張了未來還是會有如果我們拿這些都一點辦法都沒有其實陸委會應該要"},{"start":6042.458,"end":6057,"text":"報告委員有管道是一回事但是對方要怎麼做又是另外一回事所以譬如說像大靜滿88這一艘船我們會有管道了解但是他要怎麼做另外一回事"},{"start":6057.581,"end":6063.507,"text":"事情發生的時候其實不但有管道而且是可以解決的現在沒有辦法解決這是政府的問題而且是所有部會的問題而不是人民的問題怎麼樣保護我們的漁民保護我們的人民怎麼樣跟不管你的對象是誰你都要有談判的能力你要解救他們的能力這個才是有為的政府"},{"start":6079.483,"end":6086.485,"text":"這是我們今天要說的因為到目前為止聽起來當然還沒有任何的做法所以因為時間的關係我想要再請教一個就是局長在2022年8月美國眾議院前議長培洛西他訪台的時候曾經引發解放軍圍台實彈軍演那也發生了總統府外交部國防部官網接連遭到中國大陸駭客癱瘓的這個"},{"start":6105.931,"end":6117.978,"text":"民間單位也有出現駭客攻擊．包括台鐵還有超商螢幕看板都被侵入的事情．這個應該還記憶猶新那如果像這樣子．包括世界經濟論壇在2024年他全球風險報告的時候．也把網路攻擊列為目前全球第五大風險．也認為這是在國家之間的灰色衝突的一個區域"},{"start":6130.046,"end":6146.951,"text":"那對於我們來說剛剛有很多委員提到我們用了很多的錄製的產品不管是國防部也好就是像無人機的國家隊啦還包括很多其他的資安的這些都用到錄製的產品那對於像這樣子的一個衝突跟影響或者它的危害我們現在還有什麼樣的做法比如說像學校您的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":6159.621,"end":6162.909,"text":"如果學校被害的話大專院校"},{"start":6163.632,"end":6188.062,"text":"有這樣的案例跟委員說明一下事實上在二合一選舉之前大概我們每天政府遭到侵害的次數有100萬次那選後大概都有250萬次之多所以確實侵害的頻次越來越多這是第一個發展的趨勢那第二個是他攻擊的對象也開始從政府到民間企業甚至到學校委員正在講的部分那這部分新的一個發展樣態我們政府都有一個通報跟應處的機制在"},{"start":6189.262,"end":6193.068,"text":"其實這個不是新的發展樣態啦這個在2019年的時候我們行政院其實有大概1.5億招標台灣學術網路系統優化的採購案這個本席在當時其實有提醒"},{"start":6205.024,"end":6212.168,"text":"我們教育部還有行政院其實應該要注意這個事情因為其實在現在所有的像教育部後來為了顧及台灣學術網路正常運作他只是邀集了行政院的相關學者或者治安處然後就說這個沒有無治安風險可是當你在做其他要求說不可以有錄製產品的時候我們在合約明明白白寫了很多可是就像剛剛有委員講的我們"},{"start":6232.939,"end":6251.234,"text":"根本就是只是叫他換掉或者甚至你間接的承認說這個沒有治安風險可是我們看到過去行政院他下令說公務機關不可以使用結果這個案子到最後法官是判他是勝訴的"},{"start":6252.93,"end":6256.713,"text":"因為對方有提告教育部有扣他的款結果法官是不這樣認為所以就資安的這個部分因為在維護資安需求政府要怎麼樣採一致的標準我想這個也是我們現在應該要講的因為過去都說在專家提出說現在駭客開始利用網路邊緣的裝置包括路由器防火牆或者"},{"start":6280.812,"end":6305.942,"text":"其實這些都是可以做供給的可是我們竟然把這些放掉了而且可能是因為比較大的公司因為遠傳接手了所以其實我們就把它放掉了不過資安的廠商他們有觀察發現台灣招網工的前五大產業台灣教育跟研究單位是居冠的而且是全球的兩倍"},{"start":6307.282,"end":6332.425,"text":"那這個最大的風險是什麼我們現在包括我們的國防部包括有我們很多的重要的一個研究案都是委託給很多的各大專院校那如果他們擔任顧問或承接研究案他駭客如果要攻擊因為政府部門的比較不容易他藉由這樣子的學術單位其實他同樣可以達到我們很多機敏的資料那這個部分國安局有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":6332.625,"end":6348.088,"text":"好,大概有兩個部分,一個部分是防範外來的對我們治安系統的侵害,這是傳統的作業重點。那另外一部分是委員正在提醒的,也就是供應鏈、自動訊設備的安全性的問題。那這部分變成是我們現在在治安防處上主要的一個具體的問題。"},{"start":6348.148,"end":6352.993,"text":"那這個案子請你請國安單位再持續追蹤好不好因為就這個部分它對於我們全國大專院校它上至台大、成大什麼所有的接受我們的研究案的全部的大專院校都在裡面而且全部都是使用他們的一些相關的臨附件"},{"start":6369.889,"end":6370.69,"text":"陳穎委員陳穎委員陳穎委員不在我們請羅美玲委員"},{"start":6406.256,"end":6410.74,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國安局蔡局長還有陸委會兩副主委好 陸委員早局長早 兩位早從我們這個國安單位的報告當中確實中國對台的這個滲透是可以說是五花八門"},{"start":6428.493,"end":6433.036,"text":"本期想跟兩位了解的就是說2022年中國發生了火箭軍的洩密事件之後中國就很積極的開始推動一些國安相關法規的這個修訂還有這個反間諜法那反間諜法跟這些國安的規定在去年跟今年"},{"start":6453.729,"end":6458.692,"text":"中國的執法人員在主觀認定,任何有損害國家安全與對的人,他就是觸犯了《反間諜法》。所以到底他的紅線在哪裡?國人一直想要問。"},{"start":6472.68,"end":6491.775,"text":"畢竟在中國畢竟還有很多的國人在那裡長期的這個定居或是說暑假也好或是工作也好到那裡去旅遊有沒有可能就因此觸犯了這個反間諜法我想請問國安局還有陸委會到底這些紅線在哪裡國人都很想了解"},{"start":6492.395,"end":6509.563,"text":"這大概包括幾個部分一個部分是中共確實為了加強對國內政治社會的一個控制那通過很多的國安法制那這些國安法制包括剛剛委員所提到的反間諜法還有保守國家秘密法以及相關配套的作業規定跟相關的解釋意見不斷的出台"},{"start":6510.003,"end":6531.205,"text":"那也造成了很多包括國際社會上對於到對岸來從事經商旅遊的風險警示不斷的在升高當中所以這是一個大的發展的態勢那第二部分可能在過程當中從去年到現在我們已經有15位的國人進入到對岸去之後遭到了拘禁還有審判"},{"start":6531.886,"end":6558.977,"text":"那另外有51位的國人在經過了陸港澳的海關的時候遭到了盤查詢問那我們也發現這個個案比例越來越高那主要問題回答委員的問題就在於說他的國安法制他的解釋的空間太模糊了那也讓第一線的查察人員有他自己的權限來進行每一個不同個案的解釋所以這是我們為什麼會對於陸委會提高對國人到對岸的一個旅遊警示的相關的一個"},{"start":6560.438,"end":6579.05,"text":"提高的那個警示的程度我們都尊重陸委會相關的一個安排那至於委員在提問的是國人該注意什麼那從我們剛剛跟委員報告樣態裡面大概有幾個部分要特別注意的那第一個部分是假如曾經有公開的批判中共相關的黨政或是相關的人權問題的話"},{"start":6580.511,"end":6607.15,"text":"這類人是在進出中國比較容易列為高風險的對象那第二個是曾經在高科技服務的那也曾經發生過有這樣的案例在進出海關的時候遭到了盤查跟詢問那第三個是有跟相關的一些公民組織或團體比較活躍的這些社團的人士在入境的時候也比較容易遭到盤查所以這大概是一些我們從去年以來所整理的樣態跟委員做個簡單的說明"},{"start":6608.371,"end":6633.946,"text":"那如果我說這個國人到中國去,在那之前,比如說他在網路上有搜尋的一些照片啊,地圖啊,或是有儲存的一些批評中國的這些文章,這些人有沒有可能出犯反間諜法?對,對,確實要,會,會,風險非常的大。這個,這個是會,就算是儲存,儲存喔,他沒有在批判,公開的批判,可是他儲存相關的這些文章,所以他都有可能嘛。"},{"start":6634.926,"end":6663.3,"text":"對 這在去年事實上7月1號的反間諜法公布之前我們到委員會來做專報也特別在提醒因為中共海關他現在確實會去查查我們的電子的設備那也會去看你以前的一些通訊的紀錄還有你的聯絡人交友的狀況那這些他在經過勾勒之後認定你是可能涉及到國安風險的話可能就會啟動他的相關的一個徵訊的作業那這部分也是我們要特別提醒注意的另外再補充一點是假如以前在台灣"},{"start":6664.04,"end":6686.648,"text":"據有公職或軍事或相關國安單位的退離職的人員復入的話﹐風險也非常非常地高。所以好像聽起來中國去不得啊?局長聽你這樣講,風險是去不得嗎?風險非常高。那再來因為我有請陸委會上來,副主委,對這部分你有沒有想要跟國人提醒的部分呢?"},{"start":6688.208,"end":6706.803,"text":"就是因為風險我們看到確實有提高的狀態所以我們才會把這個附入警示提升為橙色燈號那這個意思就是說我們意識到會有風險所以我們在警示國人要自己要去去的時候要特別注意"},{"start":6707.463,"end":6732.832,"text":"那我們也可能要特別提醒提醒國人因為我們現在也收到一些所謂在兩岸就是投資的一些科技公司大公司他們會來詢問我們說那如果他們派台幹台灣籍的幹部或是怎麼樣去那邊會有什麼需要注意的地方那我們都會跟他們提醒各種可能的樣態那"},{"start":6735.314,"end":6752.554,"text":"據我知道他很多公司他現在已經開始就是派臺灣籍幹部過去的時候都希望他們帶這個新的手機啊就是clean的手機以免在手機的部分被被查被人家這個看到看到很多很多資訊這樣子對"},{"start":6754.076,"end":6767.616,"text":"市主委像今年4月他們有公佈這個國家安全機關行政執法程序規定跟這個國家安全機關辦理刑事事件程序規定他裡面都有提到就是說執法人員他是可以查驗這電子設備那查驗這電子設備他是隨機就可以嗎"},{"start":6771.961,"end":6786.335,"text":"對因為他很多都是主觀認定因為他雖然雖然說就是有他們說我們的對象很明確他們雖然說對象很明確但是因為對我們外界的人來講對象其實是不知道他的對象到底是誰"},{"start":6787.276,"end":6808.07,"text":"所以我還是建議說去大陸特別是如果你要在那邊待的比較長期的話就是自己的電子設備不管是手機或是平板電腦或者是筆記型電腦這些最好還是用新的帶過去這樣會比較好一點"},{"start":6808.84,"end":6830.936,"text":"OK 好 謝謝那再來還有就是說中國呢近期還是接連發生了一些攻擊外國人的這個事件引起外界很大的這個疑慮像這個美國好像上個月吧看到那個上個月有兩起一個是有四位美國的學者呢被攻擊那再來還有就是這個"},{"start":6832.437,"end":6849.747,"text":"日本的一對母子也是被攻擊,類似這樣子的事件那會不會就是因為說中國他國內的一些仇美或仇日的一些言論造成這些事件的發生但我們比較擔心的就是像反台獨言論其實在中國這裡其實也是"},{"start":6852.208,"end":6854.73,"text":"國安局和陸委會針對這些疑慮﹖我們有沒有做了一些防範的工作﹖"},{"start":6867.099,"end":6872.503,"text":"有問題的影片或相關言論常常是散佈了很久之後才遭到下架那可是已經閱聽的群眾已經非常非常的多"},{"start":6896.321,"end":6896.742,"text":"我會做什麼樣的防範?"},{"start":6922.922,"end":6943.454,"text":"因為這麼多的國人在中國,我們也擔心他們的安全。對,我們還是要警示,就是有附路準備的話,可能還是要了解一下目前當地的一些樣態。那在當地的國人,我們還是會警示他,假如說在外的一些活動還是要注意到不要跟一些比較陌生的人有太多"},{"start":6944.835,"end":6947.796,"text":"陸委會是長期在呼籲國人要注意自己的安全但是因為我們這個國人在大陸確實人數非常多而且"},{"start":6972.261,"end":6989.489,"text":"許多人他覺得說自己已經在大陸已經很熟悉了所以應該是安全無虞但是我們也看到不少案例就是很熟悉很熟悉覺得自己安全無虞所以才出了事這樣子所以不管怎麼樣我覺得"},{"start":6992.872,"end":7005.386,"text":"對這個我們這個國人在大陸我們還是要呼籲那我們陸委會的網站裡面有各種公布各種樣態就是需要防範的樣態那也希望大家能夠參考謝謝"},{"start":7006.747,"end":7028.914,"text":"是,我是覺得副主委說的沒錯,國人常常想說,不會是我啊,對不對,就像那個間諜法也是一樣,他說我平常我也沒做什麼事情啊,不會輪到我,所以他就覺得OK,沒問題,對,實際上我們有發現,其實之前就發生過,旅行團裡面有團員莫名其妙被帶走的這個事情,所以國人還是不得不謹慎。OK,好,以上謝謝。"},{"start":7032.976,"end":7037.199,"text":"好,謝謝。接下來,請賴市保委員上台質詢。謝謝主席。有請國安局的蔡局長。請蔡局長。好,謝謝主席。賴委員好。你好。"},{"start":7061.618,"end":7074.188,"text":"我請教一下這個看到最近發生兩件的事情澎湖的漁民、漁船進去大陸被扣了然後基隆"},{"start":7075.637,"end":7081.443,"text":"這兩件事情是不是都是我們越界到他們的領海裡面,是不是?"},{"start":7093.417,"end":7116.57,"text":"對,就大概在第一個案例是對岸的這個案例,大禁板88號那它確實是在對岸的12海里內作業的時候就它在臨海?對,確實是那在日本呢?對,日本這個案例它主要是在我們暫定執法線以東大概1.5海里,不在我們的暫定執法線之內那這個暫定執法線是根據臺北以東算不算它的臨海?"},{"start":7117.35,"end":7146.263,"text":"不是臨海就是執法不是我們的執法範圍因為這是根據2013年所以他可以執法對根據他不在我們2013年台日漁業協定的我們的管轄範圍對所以造成他是在這個有時候你也沒有一條線有時候愚民就超過一點點阿不是台日關係很好嗎阿怎麼日本這麼兇把他扣了還要處罰一百二十幾萬然後再放船放人這東西對我們很不好吧"},{"start":7147.515,"end":7165.57,"text":"但還是要依照相關的作業的規定來處理所以日本的處罰你接受?不是接不接受問題這是由我們外事單位來跟日方協調之後所採取的所以這樣的結果你們滿意?我們尊重相關單位的處理的一個說一波台日關係好到哪裡去?大陸請問大陸要花多少錢?"},{"start":7169.704,"end":7169.864,"text":"會不會有刑法?"},{"start":7190.624,"end":7218.649,"text":"這個我們沒有辦法替中國的執法單位來回答但是按照他的國內法闖進來有沒有刑法的問題對,他有各種有有刑法的問題有各種的裁法的現在外界看到的是這個政府從蔡英文政府賴清德政府抗中有餘啊保台不足啊然後跟對岸一天到晚撞了結果我們的漁民權利都受損了"},{"start":7220.003,"end":7224.828,"text":"這些東西稍微便宜一點點 欸 喔 日本喊打喊殺 花了這麼多錢整個老百姓看了這個樣子就變成 然後呢 我們對日本一句話都不肯吭 看到日本跪下去 看到中華大陸 哇哇哇 很大聲 但是呢 大家看啦 這樣有資料你就跟老公準括照啊 欸 沒有"},{"start":7243.595,"end":7244.176,"text":"都是軟腳下實際上你聽我講話實際上我們的政府面對我們的漁民受到委屈"},{"start":7253.871,"end":7258.792,"text":"我們的基層的愚民受到委屈我們的表現到底亂講啥然後呢對大陸就大聲公要獲取政治利益對日本就跪下去點點到現在為止可憐啊可憐啊這個部分還是要看事發案子他的發生的海域狀況沒有要看海域的狀況這大陸就進入人家的靈海了"},{"start":7278.536,"end":7289.263,"text":"假如是在我們自己的執法水域,我們的海巡署一定會全力的賦予,但是假如是出了我們的執法水域的話,那當然就要透過外事的陸委會來進行相關的協商。阿你出一點點而已,日本那個一點點你可不可以再講一下,說台日關係這麼好,結果都說假的啊,對不對,原來公司還不是這回事啊。以照2013年台日漁業協定的規定來進行。是啊,你要根據這個,所以日本組織你完全同意啊。"},{"start":7301.51,"end":7303.193,"text":"各撥向外彎怎麼會這個樣子呢?好歹你也罵一下日本都不敢罵日本的點志氣喔啊啊罵大陸罵好大聲結果大陸越罵漁民越遭殃請入會會的兩位主委"},{"start":7316.225,"end":7329.557,"text":"這處理過程都沒有謾罵,都還是理性的在...都是謾罵,怎麼沒有呢?都判了一切,判了大陸就是你沒有謾罵,別人謾罵,綠營的人謾罵,這個不錯啊,看最近現在有笑容,前一陣子都沒有笑容啊,這個,來,梁國雄,鄭文燦算不算?鄭之中派算不算?"},{"start":7340.575,"end":7361.04,"text":"他對他對大陸的事情確實蠻了解他算不算海基位裡面的鴿派鴿派鷹派都是在政府的政府的這個政策方針之下做事所以我不覺得有什麼鴿派鷹派之分胡格來台灣是不是背後他牽線"},{"start":7363.004,"end":7390.923,"text":"不是這個不是虎哥來台這個是他們送寒箭到陸委會那陸委會這邊來核定的所以是你核定的其中之一就是你有簽字嗎應該是先到文化部文化部過來陸委會所以虎哥能夠來你有功勞我不會說是我的功勞虎哥來台灣對兩岸是好事吧"},{"start":7392.94,"end":7395.108,"text":"我們對正常的交流我們都歡迎"},{"start":7397.866,"end":7416.896,"text":"現在看起來整門串外面的解讀是被賴清德追殺這個看起來海基會大概來講本來就沒什麼功能老實講陸委會沒什麼功能你們一直強調賴清德講過一遍就有三天口口講口口講新兩國論口口講講到尾了結果是把人民"},{"start":7424.6,"end":7444.2,"text":"提起攏你知道嗎 撞撞撞兩岸大人吵架 受殃的是人民 漁民受殃我們的基層普羅大眾受殃 旅遊業受殃老百姓受殃 老百姓旅遊業都希望 生意能夠做得成 有生理好談 台灣人的願望沒有很大啦"},{"start":7445.809,"end":7446.21,"text":"從最近的總總看來"},{"start":7470.1,"end":7479.539,"text":"我們不斷的你說錄了半天他飛機愛過來就過來他船愛過來就過來他人愛過來就直接上了要淡水的碼頭"},{"start":7482.348,"end":7504.346,"text":"過去最少兩岸有一個默契兩岸互不承認主權互不否認治權我們中華民國的有效治理區域台澎金馬大陸是不否定的現在等於否定了他登船登我們的漁船上面去扣人扣船"},{"start":7505.367,"end":7511.883,"text":"很可怕請問你這個是不是大陸不承認我們的治權是不是已經發生了"},{"start":7513.167,"end":7542.072,"text":"這另外有一個面向要注意的是中國大陸在區域裡面不管是軍事或海上的灰色地帶擴張也越來越積極、越來越強烈所以不只委員剛所提到的台海地區東海、南海都有類似的狀況也包括燈檢或去毆打那個菲律賓的相關的官士兵所以這樣的整體的趨勢我們要列入安全環境的內部你沒回答問題啊我的問題是他有沒有現在已經否認中華民國的有效治理區域這個事情有沒有否認"},{"start":7542.612,"end":7548.623,"text":"那這個我沒有辦法替中華人民共和國政府來回答那這行為就是否認啊!那這行為就是否認啊!請問你這個行為是不是否認?你要大聲抗議啊!"},{"start":7554.682,"end":7556.483,"text":"其實第五中隊就是沒有暴露的間諜"},{"start":7584.497,"end":7585.238,"text":"媒體盯哨這件事情到底有沒有這回事?"},{"start":7613.115,"end":7614.515,"text":"接下來請林益君委員上台諮詢"},{"start":7638.888,"end":7640.809,"text":"那待會張祺凱委員質詢完畢,我們休息五分鐘主席好,請調查局局長請陳局長"},{"start":7676.523,"end":7700.628,"text":"主席好委員好局長好近年來中共對台灣的認知作戰的樣態還有手段和密度都大幅的提升企圖藉引導性的虛假的訊息企圖影響台灣人對國安的情勢的認知甚至企圖會迫害台灣內部的團結所以這也是調查局今年成立認知作戰研究中心的原因嗎是"},{"start":7702.288,"end":7725.579,"text":"那說到認知作戰的話本席就是有一個實際最近我們花蓮群組上面流傳的假消息的影片的案例近期我們花蓮很多LINE的群組上面突然就收到了一支影片這個影片描述了中共與我國的軍機如何在我們花蓮東部的附近的空域上面對峙最後國軍戰機遭到包圍後又驅趕"},{"start":7726.96,"end":7730.622,"text":"可是這個影片錯誤擺出顯示是中共認知作戰的虛假消息但是因為當天也正好有中共的軍機來騷擾所以我們地方服務處的同仁馬上就很緊張在問這是不是真的有這一回事呢還好我們就馬上請國會的辦公室同仁快點"},{"start":7744.868,"end":7747.17,"text":"協助查證後面發現這支影片其實是錯誤擺出包括發生的時間不對還有發生的地點有問題還有戰機編隊飛行的架數也不對就連配音大陸的口音的影片也對不起來因此我們立即就判斷這影片應該是虛假的訊息"},{"start":7764.366,"end":7766.008,"text":"可能是認知作戰的手法所以馬上動用所有的方法去澄清呼籲花蓮的鄉親不要再轉傳這個影片但是這樣真的讓我們覺得是蠻無助的因為這種假訊息出來的時候民眾沒有辦法去判斷"},{"start":7780.721,"end":7800.706,"text":"這個影片的真偽然後政府機關在澄清訊息上又常常漏網之魚所以我們常常只能用人工回傳訊息快點幫忙澄清那本席想要請教一下局長為了應對這種虛假的訊息調查局除了前端的學術的研究之外目前還有哪些手段可以讓民眾即時查證訊息的呢?"},{"start":7803.067,"end":7829.762,"text":"是,好,謝謝委員那個委員剛提到的這一則其實這一則是一個很舊的舊的假訊息那在今年又重新再把它拿出來去傳散那也謝謝委員在第一時間您的團隊就來協助來澄清那民眾如果接到這一類的訊息其實我們其實目前有很多的這個類似像市池茶餓中心、美育儀等等的這些"},{"start":7830.322,"end":7858.935,"text":"可以第一時間讓我們能夠初步的去了解看看這一則訊息是不是之前已經出現過的一個假的訊息然後這一則訊息在網路上普遍的回應的狀況是怎麼樣可以讓我們第一時間初步來判斷這個訊息的真偽那在調查局的部分我們其實認知戰研究中心目前也是在剛開始成立的一個初期我們慢慢的盡量希望能夠"},{"start":7860.543,"end":7879.458,"text":"點點滴滴的去堆積我們的實戰的經驗那目前除了我們對於認知訊息的研究以外我們也希望能夠在應處的部分能夠縮短那個時效能夠在最短時間內能夠確定這個是一個假的訊息然後發佈澄清的資訊給民眾那不過這種假訊息因為中國對台灣的這種認知戰"},{"start":7885.362,"end":7906.548,"text":"的攻擊作戰,其實是一個複合性的作戰,量其實非常非常的大,尤其在選舉的期間,這個非常非常的大,那我們其實希望能夠建構我們的國人基本上要有一個比較強的一個嗜毒的能力,這個是一個比較根本的一個有效"},{"start":7907.188,"end":7935.079,"text":"但是我除了看,除了LINE可以即時的查證因為這個真的會造成大家恐慌其實都需要政府等待政府的澄清就是說萬一政府沒有主動澄清那民眾不是都傻傻的被這些假訊息欺騙了而且大家甚至還會轉傳然後北市想要提醒一下局長剛才說的政府的主動澄清還有一些就是政府通常會去抓一些流量比較高的比較不實的訊息但是流量不高的那種密集發送的訊息就會變成了一個漏網之魚"},{"start":7936.96,"end":7942.902,"text":"可是如果民眾查核的時間查核的管道又不多的話民眾就會很難查核這個是真偽是真的還是假的呢這樣的話就會造成民眾的恐慌還有誤判像剛才我說的那個所以那個在我們花蓮群組上瘋傳不實的影片其實6月28就開始傳了但是事實上查核中心去三天之後7月1號才開始澄清這個訊息其實這個時候都已經我們花蓮人都已經快嚇死了"},{"start":7963.789,"end":7971.916,"text":"所以對於反制虛假的訊息的認知作戰我想說是不是有很多民眾都查證的手段比較有限所以就以LINE的訊息查證來說其實目前只能用訊息還有文字連結跟文字型的梗圖幾個方式影片就沒有辦法那請問調查局是不是可以回去研議看看要如何讓民眾可以透過上傳的影片來查證這種真偽然後而且有很多群組上流傳的虛假的影片大部分都是影片的形式"},{"start":7993.353,"end":7993.734,"text":"請副主委"},{"start":8025.928,"end":8040.695,"text":"副主委好賴清德總統在520就職演說上談到了中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬此外賴總統也是在7月1號中研院的晚宴中第五度提到這樣的說法"},{"start":8041.235,"end":8054.61,"text":"但同一天副主委你在接受廣播節目的時候你說除了憲法在其他法律制度我們一切的做法都是以對方當國家要叫兩岸或是中華民國或中華民國共和國都好實質上是兩個國家後來主持人也在總結的時候問到憲法兩岸實質兩國"},{"start":8060.256,"end":8065.241,"text":"然後那時候你也是同意的那我想要請教副主委一下你覺得你自己的說法有沒有超抑了賴總統的說法呢還是畢竟兩岸關係的用語是非常小心謹慎的而你自己又代表政府的政務官那你身為陸委會的副主委"},{"start":8077.333,"end":8106.568,"text":"本席希望你在國會殿堂上可能要說清楚不要讓台灣的民眾還是北京當局有誤會還有你認為兩岸互不隸屬與兩國互不隸屬有沒有什麼不同呢還有因為入委會是按照兩岸人民關係條例所設置的所以不過既然你是覺得兩岸實質是兩國這種話那請問是不是表示說如今你自己自己不是入委會首長官員的前提下你個人是贊成將入委會納入外交部呢"},{"start":8108.336,"end":8127.024,"text":"報告委員我那天是在上廣播節目所以就是等於算是很多算是用聊天的方式但是媒體媒體會去脈絡化的把我一句話給擷取出來所以我覺得這個有點不是很精確那我必須說那天是談到說"},{"start":8129.042,"end":8142.892,"text":"例如說臺灣跟大陸的關係例如說談到我們的健保資格的問題那我們的大法官相關的解釋也有很明確說就是健保只有這個有中華民國"},{"start":8144.353,"end":8161.1,"text":"國民身份的人才能夠享用那我們自己相關的健保法也是這樣的規定那所以大陸的人民是不能夠所以你覺得那天有沒有說錯了還是覺得是大家希望把你截取錯誤呢我覺得是有點去脈絡化去截取我的說法這樣子"},{"start":8161.479,"end":8182.258,"text":"好那我接下來再請問你一個問題就是說前天我們大紀滿88號漁船被中國海警船帶走海巡署在隔天已經有說明了這艘漁船是在大陸公告5到8月的時候海洋伏計休漁期跑到大陸臨海內去越界捕撈那請問一下副主委現在大陸那邊交涉由陸委會跟漁業署負責是嗎"},{"start":8186.929,"end":8191.32,"text":"請問什麼時候可以放人放船?他們家人都是非常的心急,大家都在等待。"},{"start":8192.389,"end":8213.817,"text":"我應該這樣講就是說因為他這個處罰的範圍其實是有點大根據他們自己的法律處罰的範圍是有點大他最嚴可以處罰到三年以下的有期徒刑但是最輕可以到放話我現在就問說什麼時候可以放人像你們現在溝通的情況是怎麼樣應該是說他們現在還沒決定"},{"start":8216.325,"end":8245.56,"text":"他們還沒決定所以那你現在判斷這次陸委會判斷這次大進滿88號漁船被帶走是只是對於我們的漁民簡單的漁船越界捕撈的事件還是有一些政治上面的意圖呢我覺得這個事情我會比較把它當成一個個案來看待那其實它也不是因為越界的關係因為在對岸的角度來講台灣的漁民沒有越界的問題"},{"start":8247.278,"end":8247.398,"text":"所以問題在這裡"},{"start":8268.57,"end":8285.687,"text":"所以我還是希望副主委你現在身為行政官員已經不是民意代表了希望你專責海峽兩岸事務的主管機關嘛往後你還是要稍微謹言順情對這種不要引起大家不必要的誤會而且國人就開始緊張起來了也很害怕兩岸是不是會戰爭是不是會打起來"},{"start":8288.169,"end":8295.751,"text":"還有希望陸委會能夠發揮最大的政治上面的智慧在不升高兩岸情勢下和平的對話的情況下盡早快點把我們的漁民帶回來因為我們從2月開始大陸漁船翻船到現在到大紀滿88號的事件其實這個都在反映兩岸既有的事物啊但是"},{"start":8307.654,"end":8309.235,"text":"接下來請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在請鄭振淺、鄭振淺、鄭振淺委員不在請張其凱委員上台諮詢"},{"start":8352.182,"end":8358.287,"text":"請國安局長跟陸委會副主委請蔡局長、陸委會、梁副主委謝謝主席,張委員長請請教梁副主委你剛才說兩國論不夠精確,你注意說是兩岸嗎?到底精準一點,是兩國還是兩岸?"},{"start":8375.885,"end":8391.579,"text":"我們陸委會是依據臺灣地區人民與大陸地區人民關係條例所成立的所以嚴格來講就必須要講臺灣地區與大陸地區的關係但是因為我們習慣上 習慣上都是講兩岸所以你說回你本來講的兩國嗎 精準一點 比較精準"},{"start":8400.563,"end":8426.379,"text":"是兩岸關係?我們下次兩岸關係是不是?當然就是兩岸關係所以有收回你本來講的兩國我本來講的事情那個不是我講的那個是廣播節目主持人在詮釋我的話所以兩國不是你說的嗎?是主持人在詮釋今天非常明確的、精準的,現在是兩岸關係對,本來就是兩岸關係這是很精準的,今天定調了喔對,本來就是兩岸關係好,你先決定"},{"start":8430.922,"end":8449.089,"text":"我們剛剛副主委那個東西講話就精準了我們要問精準的事情這個自由時報說中國媒體盯上我們這個政論節目你現在查到什麼程度有一個特定的發展喔陸委會主委改口了"},{"start":8450.492,"end":8450.972,"text":"國安局沒有調查權"},{"start":8468.903,"end":8482.896,"text":"那我們有相關的情資那有針對相關的情資我們移送到調查局來懲罰所以目前你是有情資你沒辦法判斷是確有其事還是造謠對,我們沒有調查到目前沒辦法決定對不對交給調查局調查OK,好那你這個情資一定是有來源嘛"},{"start":8483.786,"end":8485.688,"text":"發生事情到目前為止已經兩個禮拜了"},{"start":8501.039,"end":8512.832,"text":"國安單位沒有清楚出來跟人民講到底這個事情嚴重性到什麼地方目前我們兩個很嚴重的嘛人民可能人心惶惶啊欸我做電視節目做16年欸發言有中國媒體給你腳本還頂長這大重的事電視的東森被你們影射的東森現在甩掉"},{"start":8522.672,"end":8533.698,"text":"東森電視台關鍵時刻跟劉寶傑你能不能比較明確你的源頭、你的來源是什麼?剛才沈博洋有說你要查你從源頭先查你沒有一個源頭,你源頭就沒有"},{"start":8535.222,"end":8563.267,"text":"你還能夠查,造成人民人心惶惶,國安是不是有問題?第二個,我們的媒體是被,已經被中國媒體控制了嗎?這兩點都出錯了耶假如有這樣的樣態的話,當然是一個重大的國安事件代表台灣的自由的媒體會遭到中共的一個相關的一個制約那有這樣的問題的話,我們一定會嚴加來查查所以我們在有第一時間有相關的資訊之後,我們就移送到調查局來偵辦因為國安局並沒有相關的行政調查權或司法調查權"},{"start":8564.867,"end":8581.456,"text":"所謂的事就是你剛才說的那個源頭那第三個我們沒有去影射我們沒有影射任何的媒體我們沒有影射任何的媒體沒有,是到目前為止到目前為止沒有說是東森沒有說是關鍵選擇國安局的系統沒有做這樣的一個評論從來沒有到現在為止都是特定你現在有沒有看了一個影射一個鏡"},{"start":8582.056,"end":8585.298,"text":"國家情報單位不會去泄露我們的情緒來源這是法律規定這是情報工作法第8條的規定至少一般民眾都知道一開始是哪個報紙登了"},{"start":8600.748,"end":8607.331,"text":"主管機關進行行政調查以及相關的檢調單位來釐清我沒有辦法替檢調單位來回答這個問題國安事件你講得這麼明確有的話確實是一個嚴重的問題第二個媒體的自由是不是受到侵犯你看東森水到這樣好不好"},{"start":8630.674,"end":8638.277,"text":"我請那個梁副主委我們來講講正經一點你剛才講講精準嘛你以前講我的節目我之前節目時你現在也來50個議席是我曾經給過你腳本嗎?不一定你有聽到嗎?所有台灣的精準節目怎麼會有腳本?阿你把這個當情資去辦"},{"start":8655.163,"end":8664.812,"text":"有這樣的情誌當然要辦,沒有辦是國安局失職你的情誌可能違反人民的常識啊沒有,進入調查,進入調查之後由檢調機關來還原人們沒有報的話是我失職,謝謝我現在跟你講的政論節目,台灣的政論節目是非常自由的沒有腳本這個事啦"},{"start":8678.991,"end":8684.372,"text":"所以假如有的話,我剛剛已經講了,假如有的話非常嚴重,既然有這樣的情資,我們就必須要移送司法調查所以你現在聽到的是有的嗎?有,有相關的情資,有相關的情資包括我們的政論節目"},{"start":8703.069,"end":8710.853,"text":"有腳本：然後有中國大陸媒體來聽場對 有相關情誌的主持人不這篇 第二這篇就得台灣現在有什麼人講這麼沒有常識的話違反做勝任節目的常識"},{"start":8714.446,"end":8732.03,"text":"對阿,所以才要調查阿,這是違議場的狀況,這確實是違議場的狀況,甚至有違法的可能我既然沒有調查權,我們就移送調查,釐清狀況所以不管有合理沒合理,有沒有違反常識,只要下來,國安局都去調查對,我們就請國安局很重要欸,國家安全欸,合理的東西"},{"start":8735.345,"end":8736.826,"text":"你這段時間這兩星期以來除了自由時報寫的那個源頭之外"},{"start":8756.737,"end":8777.422,"text":"臺灣已經有多少媒體跟你講這個違反政論節目製作的原則臺灣是一個民主有發展的社會我們媒體是很受尊重的我剛剛講為什麼沒有給腳本我們臺灣的媒體人、名嘴、政治評論員是非常受到尊重的你給他簽名去打我剛才是問梁文傑文傑來我的節目我叫他練一個東西"},{"start":8783.522,"end":8802.201,"text":"這不侵犯我們台灣的民主自由和法治嗎?世界沒有錯所以我說連這個常識你們都沒有關起就把它送去了你可以送那你先去查我這樣可以跟你講不會有腳本不會有丁賞這個事情因為這個對我們台灣的媒體是一個非常大的侮辱你現在講的事情是對台灣媒體非常大的侮辱讓檢調查清楚"},{"start":8804.84,"end":8830.807,"text":"我們尊重司法檢調調查的過程跟結果其他的評論我覺得還是應該留給社會公平你可以把自由時報當情誌去查我現在是提醒你這兩天以來所有的媒體在自由時報以外你看中時聯合或者網路媒體TVBS每個電視台像現在也七八十間嘛七八十間說沒有這個事情有一家說有七八十家都沒有"},{"start":8831.857,"end":8844.925,"text":"又牽扯到你國家安全又牽扯到我們新聞自由那你要去查之前你是不是要看這七八十間是怎麼說的你是怎麼一直去找自由時報啊想說你找自由時報我剛才說過自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係他們的報導我們沒有任何的局長你講這麼久你到底你意思有兩種喔你意思有兩種喔第一種你有另外的情資嗎"},{"start":8856.311,"end":8881.399,"text":"是阿,我們本來就是有另外情資阿,我們本來就有另外情資,我們一開始就講清楚,一開始就講清楚,我在上禮拜中報就講清楚了,我們一開始就有得到相關的情資,所以把情資送給檢調單位來立案偵辦,就是這麼清楚,自由時報的報導歸自由時報的報導,兩個沒有關係,謝謝委員﹖所以昨天在講的就情資,他的情資來源不是只有自由時報﹖上禮拜就講過了﹖是有其他的﹖是"},{"start":8882.439,"end":8907.664,"text":"上禮拜就講過了這不是指控這在描述整個過程跟經過跟文做說明那既然這麼嚴重又牽扯到就是當然我們必須要偵辦我們要偵辦對我們要移送偵辦那這儘快也要儘快給我們但我知道你們有步驟在做可是我剛剛一定要強調了人民已經因為這樣子有不安了所以第一個要快第二個同時你要給人民真相啊你等一下在地上我剛才說的用兩星期喔"},{"start":8909.245,"end":8910.906,"text":"我們來提醒希望盡快有結論謝謝 現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9361.584,"end":9369.647,"text":"我們開始開會。接下來請楊瓊英委員,楊瓊英,楊瓊英委員不在,請洪孟凱委員上台質詢。請蔡局長,還有王次長。"},{"start":9393.044,"end":9418.475,"text":"局長好,局長我想今天我們這個專案報告也是大家國人非常關心中共對台滲透作為那其中就是有講到是說平面媒體之前就先報導是說有新華社駐台記者盯哨的一事那我想請教一下到底現在因為連陸委會主委都說找不到爆料者那國安局又講是說情資調查已經在立案偵辦了"},{"start":9420.076,"end":9436.821,"text":"所以現在是立案偵辦?對,我們有這樣的資訊移交給調查局,調查局已經立案偵辦。好,什麼時候有的資訊?另外因為...什麼時候掌握的資訊?另外因為有媒體人提告這位記者,所以檢方也開始立案偵辦。對,那什麼時候掌握的資訊?資訊的部分我們一開始有的資訊...局長,什麼時候掌握的資訊?因為已經在偵辦過程當中,"},{"start":9440.544,"end":9452.705,"text":"什麼時候掌握資訊也不能講?對,我們不建議在這個地方來討論所以第一不能講什麼時候掌握資訊那本席只想問因為個案的部分我不牽涉,但是爆料者到底有沒有找到?"},{"start":9453.686,"end":9475.396,"text":"有沒有爆料者對,爆料者這跟國安局這部分是沒有關係的國安局部分有我們的情資來源那我們既然有這樣的情資就必須要移送到相關的單位來進行調查所以你們有情資但是這個情資不是從爆料者來所以跟平面媒體是不同的兩件事,這是兩件事情是,所以說平面媒體報導的跟你們掌握情資是不同的而不一樣的那什麼時候掌握情資不能講"},{"start":9475.936,"end":9503.349,"text":"對我們之前就有掌握到比平面媒體報導之前還是之後應該是稍早一點稍早一點對所以你們掌握了情資但是你們之前不講那你們做了什麼積極的作為除了說這調查以外如果說這樣的話那本席就不禁懷疑我們的一個安全的部分國安局自己說先掌握了情資但現在講是說他是這個調查當中不能公開但是又沒有提醒我們全國的民眾"},{"start":9504.349,"end":9520.755,"text":"直到平面媒體爆料之後原來才知道說我們的政論節目居然還會被人家盯哨那國安局之前比一個平面媒體還不如跟委員說明一下因為國安局並沒有司法調查權第一個我們不是業管機關也沒有行政調查權本身現在問的是說那你們什麼時候掌握情資並且你們做了什麼積極的作為還是就放任"},{"start":9527.737,"end":9529.118,"text":"請教現在這一個所謂新華社的駐台記者"},{"start":9551.567,"end":9574.105,"text":"那他現在人在哪邊他已經離境了離境了如果是報導的這一位的話他已經離境了那這一位到底跟我們國安局這邊掌握的是不是同一位我不清楚國安局掌握的是什麼好那請教一下你們現在他的記者證是文化部這邊發的嗎是他什麼時候發什麼時候入台的他是我看一下"},{"start":9578.836,"end":9591.168,"text":"二月二十三號因為他是三個月離境所以說他照理講他應該是五月二十三離境三二三、四二三、五二三嗎對,三個月所以說他是什麼時候離境的五二三他就是五二三當天嗎"},{"start":9593.614,"end":9617.089,"text":"我們目前的資訊是這樣是5月23號離境他就523當天離境所以說他就在他三個月的記者證有效期滿的時候來離境所以我們這邊也沒有再去跟他調查說他到底有沒有過去這些行為有沒有辦法調查因為之前在教育文化委員會的時候我們請教文化部部長他也講是說他要先做這個所謂的行政調查那就現在勒"},{"start":9617.762,"end":9626.556,"text":"跟委員說明在離境之前我們並沒有掌握這個訊息所以在離境之前我們並沒有詢問他本人不過在這一件事情經過媒體披露之後"},{"start":9630.376,"end":9655.421,"text":"他有沒有從事我們文化部發給他記者證以外的事情我們經過媒體披露之後我們有請兩個單位來做詢問哪兩個單位第一個是邀請單位因為媒體進來都會有一位邀請單位也是另外一個媒體那另外就是新華社本社還有在台的駐台記者因為這位記者雖然離開了但是還有其他的記者來那在目前為止的詢問當中這兩位大概都是否認的狀況都是否認是因為"},{"start":9658.161,"end":9676.932,"text":"上個禮拜本席在教育文化委員會詢問的時候然後有講到是說這個禮拜要公佈嘛對不對所以你們是今天就講了還是說你們會有更詳細的這個調查報告應該是這樣我們因為在做行政調查所以呢我們會跟委會把所有行政調查結果總和以來以後一起對外一起對外什麼時候會對外"},{"start":9678.158,"end":9695.204,"text":"目前還沒有清楚的日程,不過我們的報告已經在處理當中所以你們已經報告出來了嘛,對不對?你剛剛已經講了,是否認但是本席現在要說,這一件事情國人那麼的關心但是我們的行政機關的這個動作,會不會也太慢了?最後我再請教一下國安局局長來,我們請國安局局長"},{"start":9700.236,"end":9716.137,"text":"局長現在國安人士說盤點五個樣態來示警說可能透過參香、拜拜、聯合祭拜、假學術之名的方式來做這樣子的一個收集個資或者是說監控所以說我們附中會有這個違法徵訊的風險是這樣嗎?"},{"start":9719.672,"end":9739.265,"text":"對,就講兩岸的正常合法交流我們都尊重了那要特別注意的是所以現在台灣進兩岸觀光那下一步是不是要宗教交流、學術交流、文化交流、地方交流也要進行?政府目前沒有做這樣的宣示但是你們現在講是說這一些學術交流、宗教交流也都有可能"},{"start":9741.147,"end":9753.64,"text":"我剛剛第一個部分跟人說明的是只要是合法的正常的這都尊重沒有問題現在主要是針對交流過程當中假如有違常的或違法的狀況那我們要來特別注意要把它分清楚"},{"start":9754.981,"end":9774.858,"text":"沒有錯啊當然國人都知道是說這些交流學術交流、宗教交流、文化交流這都是屬於正常的範圍之內啊所以說也才會做這樣的申請啊但是我們國安現在的一個市井就說這一些交流也都可能被滲透啊所以你們到底講等於沒講嗎?你們講等於沒講等於是你們到底你們界線在哪邊?"},{"start":9775.879,"end":9791.526,"text":"你們的樣態在哪邊你今天的示警是講是說都要小心但是講得也沒講因為除非你跟我們講說未來宗教交流、學術交流、文化交流也不能做否則的話你現在到底是要希望兩岸能夠有多一點交流還是說不要交流"},{"start":9792.27,"end":9794.472,"text":"淡水河口本席的選區那之前這個快艇闖入河口快一個月了"},{"start":9817.307,"end":9838.181,"text":"那請教我們現在查明的狀況怎麼樣?有沒有懲處?對,因為這部分應該是事檢正在偵辦當中,我們尊重那個檢方的辦案。那我們有沒有相關行政機關的懲處?懲處我記得在第一時間海巡署就有對外進行一些懲處。所以國安單位這邊掌握就是海巡署懲處就夠了嗎?對對,主要是海巡署針對整個過程當中有失職的部分來做檢討跟懲處。"},{"start":9839.702,"end":9841.043,"text":"主席麻煩請NCC陸委會跟文化部"},{"start":9869.628,"end":9873.071,"text":"請NCC、陸委會、還有文化部就備選台。謝謝"},{"start":9877.55,"end":9901.763,"text":"好 謝謝 我也是想要針對中共到底有沒有介入我們這輪節目的意思來跟各位請教我們先來問一下行政調查部分因為我看了大家的報告感覺行政調查是調查不出來的我先確定這件事情NCC是說已經在6月25號發行給中華民國廣電工會還有一些相關工會叫工會來回應會員的行為那工會是說不了解 是這樣嗎"},{"start":9903.23,"end":9927.67,"text":"跟委員報告NCC對那個廣播內容的監理都是事後監理就到現在為止沒有人來檢舉所以NCC還會不會有更積極的動作就NCC而言跟委員報告我就講的就是我們都是事後監理所以你們就不會再有動作嗎我們是事後監理沒有沒有你就回答我問題沒有任何人來檢舉沒有任何的具體的證據NCC對於我們的國安是這麼的消極"},{"start":9930.572,"end":9956.677,"text":"那文化部 我想請確認一下文化部也是一樣發函嘛 對不對發給邀請單位跟新華社我們有約他們來談那談了嗎有約談 已經談了然後有調查出相關的我們把所有的目前為止因為行政調查基本上就是文書提供跟約談所以我們把這個相關的內容中正以後大概接下來就交給檢調看後續是不是有需要進行調查所以應該也 他們也沒有說他們有這個行為嘛 對不對對 目前為止行政調查的結果就是沒有嗎是否認是否認好 那請問一下那個陸委會"},{"start":9960.398,"end":9987.275,"text":"衛會是說因為找不到資深媒體人嗎?所以應該也不會再查了不是找不到資深媒體人而是我們有詢問報導的媒體自由時報有詢問過然後他們說他們的報導皆有所本而且經過合理的查證但是基於新聞倫理不能提供不能提供消息所以就不會也不會再查了嗎?對不對?好那所以那我想請教一下就是說所以舊陸委會NCC文化部的立場"},{"start":9988.115,"end":10003.649,"text":"這件事情是不是已經了結了應該說行政調查的全責範圍已經結束了嘛所以接下來就是看司法沒有錯是看司法跟國安那我請問一下國安單位國安局好不好請問一下國安局"},{"start":10012.064,"end":10024.244,"text":"我要講問一下局長因為這件事情當時別的媒體爆發出來的時候全台灣大家都震動了包括民進黨黨團也當天就開記者會就是痛罵這件事情還把藍白扯進來"},{"start":10025.599,"end":10044.63,"text":"所以這個是應該是真的但我剛剛這樣問一輪下來感覺好像NCC文化部跟陸委會也沒有把這件事情很當一回事就是說如果很積極的話這國安行為這麼嚴重滲透台灣太可怕了我們現在看政論節目都不知道說他到底是有沒有被滲透這麼嚴重的事情但我剛剛這樣問一輪我好像感覺沒有很嚴重"},{"start":10046.491,"end":10070.36,"text":"所以國安局現在態度如果說我請教一下如果入委會這邊有問自由時報然後自由時報不願意把他的消息來源提供出來那我們可不可以根據任何的國安因素請自由時報提供他的消息來源有可能嗎?沒有沒有因為國安局並沒有行政調查權也沒有司法調查權所以我們才會把案子移交到調查局來進行偵辦所以現在是要調查局來偵辦"},{"start":10073.561,"end":10078.645,"text":"今天調查局也有來嗎?有我可以請教一下那個調查局是局長對不對?局長我想問一下就是說今天因為是自由時報是有消息來源嘛就是資深媒體人他有相當的情資嘛自由的報導就是自由報導報導的那個資深媒體人有這個情資所以跟自由時報講了"},{"start":10098.496,"end":10114.623,"text":"那理論上來講 假設啦 我說假設這件事情是真的那很嚴重嘛這是一個很大的國安問題嘛那但是現在自由時報基於新聞倫理啊他不願意提供這個資深媒體人的姓名然後也沒有辦法提供消息來源那就調查局的立場"},{"start":10115.763,"end":10132.931,"text":"國安在這個事件上面基於國安是能不能邀請那個要求那個自由時報把這個效益來源提供出來我不知道就國安的角度來講的話是當然這個問題對調查局來講的話是一個很重大的一個國安問題那所以在媒體披露的第一時間我們就立案來調查"},{"start":10134.372,"end":10153.586,"text":"那並且在台灣高等檢察署也已經立案了已經有指派檢察官在指揮偵辦那相關各方的資訊來源我們都收集到了包括國安局還有相關今天到場的各個行政機關他們初步的行政調查所以自由時報那個資訊媒體有掌握了"},{"start":10154.206,"end":10176.635,"text":"這個我現在沒有辦法在這邊跟您報告說有或沒有因為偵查不公開的關係因為我們想要了解說這會不會破案的一天因為這件事情大家那麼關注會不會就這樣不了了之我們當然很希望就是說這些資訊全部進來了以後我們跟檢察官研究有一個很明確的一個調查的方向然後逐步來去建構一個事實但是這個結論我們沒有辦法在今天說事後"},{"start":10181.297,"end":10181.317,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":10211.446,"end":10235.82,"text":"接下來,請王定宇召委上台質詢。謝謝主席。麻煩國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委。國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委。"},{"start":10237.601,"end":10245.612,"text":"請就位巡台謝謝委員長 局長我們早上聽了一下大概對於中國滲透台灣媒體"},{"start":10248.757,"end":10273.516,"text":"陳經緯看媒體報導有幾個樣態你看一下我們這邊看這幾個樣態就你的業務來瞭解不管是國安局或調查局這些樣態是存在的嗎對先跟我說明一下媒體報導這五個樣態並不是由國安局來提供當然不是你們整理的但是我們的案例當中也確實有看到幾個樣態所呈現出來的你們整理的樣態有沒有比這更多可能會再稍微多一點有沒有包括送手機"},{"start":10275.131,"end":10302.567,"text":"也有注意到委員在講的這件事情對很特別突然間有一天有一群人通通拿一樣的那個是什麼華為的手機對不對都一樣的喔而且都在那個區間裡面這樣態我倒覺得媒體有媒體報導的角度我們尊重媒體跟他的消息來源但作為國家的情報主管機關你可能要整理一下你們的樣態作為也許媒體人或者評論員他不曉得這個人想要利用他"},{"start":10303.467,"end":10318.502,"text":"可是透過你們樣態的揭露,他會提高警覺說,誒,這個要上我東西,怪怪的喔,你懂我意思嗎?不叫而殺為之虐嘛,所以這些東西我是建議國安局或調查局應該把樣態整理起來。就這幾個樣態,剛才聽起來是,局長你很負責任說,有關中國駐台人員"},{"start":10326.713,"end":10343.098,"text":"對媒體下指導旗或政論節目你是有這樣的情資有這樣的情資你這樣情資那你接下來是要移送給很多人誤以為國安局是調查單位不是,國安局是情資收集單位你有這個情資之後你下一手應該是給調查局了吧是所以我請調查局長"},{"start":10345.728,"end":10360.051,"text":"委員好局長是你有從國安局得到這樣的情資嘛是因為按照業務上他應該要給你嘛是你們查到現在這些情資的真偽有沒有確認我們目前還還正在調查的階段"},{"start":10361.155,"end":10375.582,"text":"我剛才聽到情資你們有自己的來源未必是媒體報導然後情資有很多單位包含國安局有提供給你們那你們也在整理當中如果有涉及違法你們可能就移送嘛那現在比較麻煩的是"},{"start":10376.562,"end":10399.055,"text":"事實上中國對台灣很多的樣態我們台灣的國安法律比韓國還要鬆韓國如果有人替北朝鮮在韓國宣揚的話我上次看到一個被判了10多年可是我們台灣是把政治任務有來到台灣統戰、宣揚中共的政治主張"},{"start":10399.895,"end":10424.822,"text":"我們台灣相當程度都把他認為是言論自由然後一旦他跨過那條線付錢了交付命令了發展組織了我們才有國安無法去處理他嘛沒有錯嘛所以本席要問你一個嚴肅問題你現在國安局給你的情資你們也在彙整也在查證當中未來如果有涉及不法當然我們就會看到移送的動作這個未來會不會等很久"},{"start":10425.662,"end":10454.044,"text":"我們盡快我們只能說盡快那個蔡局長要補充補充一下因為也有國內的媒體人已經跟這個新華社記者提告了所以檢方也已經立案在偵辦有一個有媒體人提告檢方要查要辦除了問他提告的內容檢察官一定會問檢調嘛所以現在那個台高檢署台高檢署現在在指揮偵辦所以高檢署有指揮你們在辦這個案件有有有所以高檢署有跟你們調這些資料了"},{"start":10455.605,"end":10479.355,"text":"我該問的第一個層次問題是如果有違法當然就會有起訴的動作違法當然就是我們會移送可是我們常常在英文叫cooking常常在辦這些案子的時候都會經過相當長的時間有些國安案件為了要查他的罵髒話他整個組織脈絡有多大有時候會等了三年五年都有這個案子你覺得會等很久嗎"},{"start":10480.371,"end":10502.797,"text":"我們是希望能夠盡快釐清整個事實但是即便是釐清了整個的狀況的話可能就是說在法制面我們可能還是要去研究剛剛委員剛剛提到的就是說統戰的行為跟我們目前的國安無法甚至像反滲透法法是不是有不足的處法是不是有不足的地方對不對調查局長我剛才問的你現在提到的就是我要講第二層次問題第一個"},{"start":10505.794,"end":10525.701,"text":"我認為偵辦案件不能去逼你何時何月要出來案子不是這樣辦的但我們都希望盡快如果有違法當然就依法起訴我現在講的第二個樣態比較麻煩是台灣現在有一個狀況陸委會可能要了解一下國安局要了解一下文化部可能要了解大家都要了解一下可是我們現在法律沒有規範它你知道嗎"},{"start":10526.641,"end":10544.551,"text":"明明知道他在進行政治滲透政治統戰查起來也確有其事可能有個人在指導某個節目或某個人在監督媒體可是有沒有到法那個層次我內心是有個問號本席這邊建議你看可不可行這件事情釐清之後"},{"start":10546.141,"end":10570.825,"text":"作為國家調查局卻有歧視縱使未達移送法辦的程度你們也應該要有一個報告出來讓民眾有個識讀我剛才看不分朝野連國民黨的立委都要求趕快交代我覺得好事如果有這個事情縱使未達違法移送的標準但是確實有這樣的事情我們現在立法院不分黨派的委員都在關注這個事情"},{"start":10572.284,"end":10589.026,"text":"將來如果不能移送但確實有盯梢有這樣情形你們願不願意把人事實地務清除有一份報告出來這個部分我想因為有檢察官在指揮偵辦那今天委員的這個建議我們會跟檢察官去反映就是說最後的調查結果有台高檢署他們那邊"},{"start":10590.327,"end":10607.781,"text":"起訴就是起訴書,不起訴書常常寫得不明不白,這件事情縱使不起訴也要寫得清清楚楚有時候不起訴是因為沒到達法律要件,不代表沒這件事情,懂我意思嗎?所以這件事情可能高檢不起訴書也要把它寫清楚,會不會起訴我不知道嘛"},{"start":10608.482,"end":10629.255,"text":"沒有看到證據好 剛才講到法律有沒有未盡之處希望法務部調查局或者是國安局統合一下有一些樣態行為在韓國列為違法甚至有的判很重而我們台灣被威脅的情形是比它還要嚴重我們卻把它用言論自由的方式去寬鬆對待"},{"start":10630.996,"end":10655.141,"text":"我不是反對言論自由我們該不會檢討一下他擺明了就要來統戰你擺明了就要執行中共的政策然後我們也好像莫可奈何掌握一堆情資卻無可奈何人民對這個是不耐的所以是不是請國安局跟調查局整合一下我們法律是不是應該有精進修改的地方那我們立法委員應該也要做這樣的事情我不知道兩位局長有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":10656.61,"end":10684.296,"text":"事實上委員講得沒有錯過去這兩年包括美國、英國、德國、荷蘭、日本、韓國跟澳洲都修改他們的國安法制那這部分我們會再積極來收集相關修法的方向來看國內的樣態做個結合跟評估怎麼樣來精進我們相關修法的必要性提出一些修法建議嘛像之前我們國安無法進黨都會有法務司法單位認為可行的方式大家一起來研擬修法我覺得這個洞要把它補起來接下來你看"},{"start":10685.896,"end":10704.644,"text":"中國有沒有媒體自由我想這個是社會常識中國的媒體接駐的條文就是要為中國共產黨服務他們是要為黨服務才叫媒體不為黨服務叫犯人就抓去關了嘛所以中國沒有媒體自由這個事情所以中國駐台的媒體去執行不管中宣部"},{"start":10705.484,"end":10720.009,"text":"或者是中共相關單位的命令對他們來講是理所當然依法有據所以他們的媒體是要執行他們中共的意旨的所以在台灣有7加10名的媒體駐點在台灣如果我們再加上一些他們在外面投資的其實不只這個數量"},{"start":10722.02,"end":10744.733,"text":"涉及違法影響台灣公共利益當然就要偵辦我這個問題是請問一下現在有沒有已經違法損害台灣公共利益的中國媒體有沒有這樣的案子在偵辦中內容我不問有沒有因為依照勤工法的規定對岸的民眾來台灣進行交流包括媒體的採訪假如有違反他申請來台的目的的話違反目的是行政我現在講法律"},{"start":10745.894,"end":10765.791,"text":"我的意思是說只要他有違反他在台灣註點採播的一些來台的目的的話我們國安單位本來就有專案在注意這個問題因為他違反他來台目的有時候就請他出去嘛那我的意思是說違法而且損害台灣公共利益法就有一個法條在那裡嘛我們目前有違法樣態那個違反來台目的我們待會再講"},{"start":10766.491,"end":10791.881,"text":"有沒有違法的樣子有我們在注收這樣的狀況我尊重你們偵辦偵查不公開然後第二個但如果他還沒到違法他只是違反來台目的或者在執行相關策略我們現在用的是取我剛才聽文化部副部長次長是說會取消他的記者證那他背後所代表的媒體或組織難道不用被處分嗎"},{"start":10794.943,"end":10818.473,"text":"處分的部分請葉管來說梁副主委我們現在是針對這個媒體違規可是你知道我認為中國派來駐台的人我認為他們無辜啊他們依他們中共的法律是要服務他們中共的所以他來這邊做任何事情哪有自由意志所以我只取消他的記者證禁止他再來台灣其實我沒有解決問題他背後代表的那個力量新華社啊人民日報啊等等"},{"start":10819.491,"end":10842.558,"text":"有沒有進一步去取消他們派人駐點的資格的機制應該說要看是他個人的行為還是我們判斷他是整個機構的行為中國的記者在談會的行為那過去曾經有例子就是東南衛視在台灣說是要來採訪但是實際上是在自播政論節目在做節目那所以我們後來不但把東南衛視的記者請走"},{"start":10844.258,"end":10863.327,"text":"到目前為止東南衛視他所要申請的申請來台的記者大概目前都還沒有允許過所以是有前例的我剛才提的就是這個例子就是說那個記者只不過是爪牙拔了爪牙可以派另外一個爪牙來背後的那個組織"},{"start":10864.96,"end":10891.696,"text":"我們現在研擬法律以外對這樣的組織應該有一些處罰機制是,因為在台灣自播政論節目它不可能是記者個人的行為好,前一頁我最後一分鐘現在從中國去年7月要執行反間諜法之後其他反間諜法啦什麼國家機密什麼什麼保護啦等等它有好多法啦它這些法都有一個共同的特色定義很模糊授權非常寬"},{"start":10892.737,"end":10921.349,"text":"公安部、國安部、大大小小官想怎麼幹就怎麼幹他說你違法就違法他在你的手機拿到一個香港加油搞不好就可以把你抓起來大概是這個樣態所以根據目前統計7月1號去年2023年到今年的6月30號一年的時間有42件47人然後被留置詢問拒絕進去的有6件6人我倒覺得被拒絕入境的人是有福氣的他讓你進去再抓起來的你還不知道怎麼辦"},{"start":10922.745,"end":10927.24,"text":"就國安局或相關單位的研究有沒有針對特定的群體"},{"start":10928.004,"end":10952.1,"text":"有,我們剛剛也跟秦浩偉有說明過,第一個,假如說你在到對岸的過程當中,你有些特殊的身份的話,會被列為高風險的族群。比方說,曾經在政府部門服務過,特別是我們的國安系統或軍警部門,那另外是曾經在參與一些相關的公民的團體的活動,那可能有涉及到對中國自由民主人權的批判,這也是列為高風險族群。"},{"start":10952.861,"end":10976.758,"text":"再來是曾經在高科技產業那有涉及到高科技機敏機敏科技對機敏科技的也會被劉志來詢問國安局跟陸委會跟交通部一定要把這種警告把它具體化類似旅遊警告讓他知道去會有風險像你剛才講的你就漏掉兩個你看這個新聞就我們知道有一貫道的信徒"},{"start":10978.478,"end":10986.115,"text":"進去被關到現在他沒有做什麼事他就進去宣教而已我上次把兩個混在一起了我剛才私底下了解還有一個齁"},{"start":10987.699,"end":11010.456,"text":"我直接講他是青海無上師的信徒帶著速食推廣手冊也被關到現在他怎麼會知道他是高風險他也沒在政府機關任職他只不過有人去那邊洪教基督徒我還在調查有沒有去帶著聖經因為聖經在中國是禁書嘛國安局長我最後請教你目前這幾個人回來了沒啊一貫到跟青海無上師這些還沒有還關著對"},{"start":11012.964,"end":11035.361,"text":"阿他們犯了什麼法?犯了中國什麼法?對那中國就以他們的國安法制來羅列一些罪名把一貫道的信徒然後把推廣素食的人關起來報告委員他們這個在中共的刑法裡面叫做利用匯道門擾亂社會秩序他就把它定義為邪教嘛對所謂的匯道門就是邪教或是地下"},{"start":11035.981,"end":11036.721,"text":"接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢"},{"start":11071.619,"end":11094.112,"text":"謝謝主席主席先請文化部、國安局跟調查局請國安還有文化部還有調查局謝謝好因為我的題目其實跟在場的所有官員都有關不過我們一個一個來齁首先我先請文化部王珍次長你好委員好我們來看到就是"},{"start":11095.829,"end":11125.089,"text":"這個是一個發生在2023年10月的案子了蒙藏文化中心有科員涉及為中國來探尋藏獨情資那麼一國安法已經起訴了其實我舉這個案子我們知道現在已經是在偵辦當中我想要強調的就是以我們今天的命題可以看得出來中國的滲透其實早就已經生出魔炸包括連文化部這裡都有那麼更不要講今天很多委員所關心的就是"},{"start":11126.03,"end":11133.724,"text":"中國的記者的部分所以我想請問現在這樣的一個案件當中文化部有沒有進行哪些內部跟行政的調查"},{"start":11134.813,"end":11163.668,"text":"如果以這個文化中心的案子來說我們在當時就立刻有進行了一些約談的行政調查那一個案子因為也牽涉到檢方的起訴那所以在當時我們就立即就隔天我們就立刻停職就是請他先離開工作場域避免有任何可能性可以接觸到相關的文件資料所以當時這個刺探相關的情資的這一位人員他是受到中國的相關的組織所吸納或吸收嗎那你們知道的狀況又是怎麼樣"},{"start":11165.375,"end":11190.851,"text":"就我們的行政調查來說因為本案已經進入司法調查我就不特別說明內容不過就我們的理解來說他不這樣認為他覺得是他的朋友啦所以我要強調的就是在我們過去一直以來中國的滲透的面向是非常多的包括主席我要請NCC我也請包括現在文化部或者是國安局或調查局來瞭解一下"},{"start":11192.632,"end":11220.023,"text":"這個有媒體人直接就在電視上面在節目上面說他們有中國的朋友寄來了高價的手機誰寄的他不知道但他會說打開來真好用我先問一下我們調查局的局長局長如果你收到一個中國來的朋友但是是誰不知道寄一個手機給你竟然敢拿來用而且還在電視上講好用這個不奇怪嗎"},{"start":11220.883,"end":11244.753,"text":"這非常非常奇怪那這樣的案子你們有沒有主動想要來做調查跟了解咧我想這些媒體的朋友他們收到客人寄來的禮物應該不會是我們調查局立案的一個依據啦可能還要看參酌如果還有其他的一些比較可疑的跡象增後的話我們可能還會有立案的條件所以國安局呢"},{"start":11245.473,"end":11257.883,"text":"今天如果蔡局長你收到一支來自中國不知道誰寄給你的號稱是中國來的朋友送的高價手機啊然後是某個品牌的啊結果拿來居然說哇真好用"},{"start":11259.859,"end":11284.609,"text":"這個不奇怪嗎?對我想對於一些如果沒有人檢舉我現在在這裡就請你來調查這個案子好不好?就資通訊安全的問題確實是我們的關注重點那對於對岸製作的手機或是相關的通訊軟體的資安風險那我想各單位都有做一些警示那委員所提到這個案例他到底有沒有違法的樣態這個可能目前還沒有構成要件好如果"},{"start":11285.789,"end":11307.973,"text":"調查局跟國安局都認為沒有違法樣態那來NCC這就變成打廣告囉因為剛剛調查局跟國安局都說他們這個違法的樣態沒有很明確本席媒體出來我們知道特定商品是不能拿到電視上面尤其是新聞頻道來做置入的喔那這就置入了是不是"},{"start":11308.433,"end":11320.827,"text":"因為如果沒有違法樣態那就置入啦兩個一定有一個嘛不違法因為剛剛都說這個違法樣態還不一定有明顯嘛不一定是中國的資通訊那好啊那那就是為特定品牌打廣告囉那NCC有沒有要開罰"},{"start":11323.902,"end":11335.987,"text":"報告委員這個在按照廣電法上面是對商品或服務有置入行銷他說這個手機很好用捏隨手一拍驚為天人好我具名檢舉"},{"start":11340.646,"end":11360.141,"text":"好那我們假使民眾有檢舉的話我們會送到廣播電視節目內容諮詢委員會去審議好我要強調的就是其實在場的各位都針對國家的安全兼複習非常重要的任務喔因為中國在22條他所營造的這種長臂管轄是一個所謂新的法律戰的應對喔"},{"start":11361.562,"end":11365.763,"text":"包括蔡局長我們其實不只在這裡一次我們講到的是這樣的一個22條他講出來最高可以判死刑對於民眾來講尤其現在是暑假期間剛剛前面非常多的委員都特別提到了如果他們都是用這種藏於無形之中一方面滲透台灣一方面再用法律戰"},{"start":11381.987,"end":11401.652,"text":"來造成人民的恐慌我舉個例子如果以現在中國所設定的利用職權在教育、文化、歷史跟新聞、媒體等領域來扭曲或篡改台灣是中國的一部分我就講一個老師他如果只是在課堂上講說中華民國不屬於中華人民共和國"},{"start":11402.512,"end":11430.513,"text":"那麼他會不會就心生恐懼再來就是剛剛媒體人他收到一支手機這到底是不是禮物是不是要他來為中國美顏因為如果講台灣中華民國不是中華人民的一部分可能會被判死刑但是收個手機來當禮物來做美顏他有可能不會有任何的後果所以像這樣連一般民眾如果都要做政治表態都害怕的時候該怎麼辦"},{"start":11431.514,"end":11452.364,"text":"對我想就法律戰的部分確實是我們關注的重點因為在國際上中國透過聯合國2758號決議案塑造這種國際一中的框架那在這框架之下去限縮台灣的主權地位另外在兩岸交流的部分也正像委員所提到的他提出所謂的成都22條那以這部分希望對台灣來實施這種常備管轄但台灣是一個"},{"start":11453.024,"end":11480.021,"text":"主權民主自由的國家不會讓他的長臂管轄到我們境內來但是風險在於國人到對岸去的話就要特別了解到他們國安新的法制對我們造成了風險那這也是為什麼我們一再利用各種的尋答機會跟國人報告的一定要注意到到對岸旅遊可能的風險存在在哪裡那以及剛剛王定宇委員在提醒我們把這些相關國人的背景樣態哪些人是高風險的也應該要透過我們的機制讓國人更清楚了解這個狀況這我們來努力"},{"start":11481.542,"end":11485.868,"text":"好,所以我們其實現在要面對的是本席其實在總質詢的時候也特別詢問了卓榮泰卓院長喔卓院長當時就講了最可怕的其實是文化入侵那麼在文化入侵的情況底下他不會有任何的形態、樣態"},{"start":11498.746,"end":11525.38,"text":"他就是方方面面的滲透在台灣他可以是用所謂融合、融台他可能也可能是威嚇打台灣但是現在如果在我質詢之後請問一下院長有找相關的部會來針對文化入侵的部分來做相關的示警或者是跨部會的相關的了解嗎行政院部分可能要請行政院部來說明主席有請陸委會"},{"start":11529.999,"end":11533.232,"text":"請副主委是"},{"start":11534.605,"end":11558.772,"text":"相關的卓院長已經特別提到了文化入侵是最可怕的而且是形與無形之間剛剛我舉的那幾個例子都只是要強調不是只有今天在野黨立委或者是其他政黨的立委包括民進黨立委所關心的這個媒體在後面監控的部分它事實上說不定已經滲透進去了包括剛剛我講的華為手機的事件你們有收到相關的訊息嗎"},{"start":11560.031,"end":11574.558,"text":"我們有注意到這樣的訊息那像這樣的訊息之後有沒有更進一步的動作跟了解包括行政院相關的到底誰來負責組織因為國安局或調查局到目前為止文化入侵的有一塊是陸委會這邊在處理"},{"start":11579.74,"end":11598.809,"text":"包括這個宗教或者是其他文化方面的這個所以我們陸委會其實對這方面的訊息是相當注意的那有一部分可能是文化部會去理解但是因為文化入侵它是一個比較不是用法律可以去界定的概念"},{"start":11599.349,"end":11602.03,"text":"所以副主委您的言下之意是有一個部分是陸委會來負責但是有一部分又是文化部次長王次長這裡來負責"},{"start":11627.156,"end":11655.129,"text":"那這樣的分工會不會就出現了盲點沒有一個統合的訊息的機制確實政府在相關的這些防禦工作上面確實盲點算是一定是有的盲點一定是有的所以我們經常就是現在這個有點像對方的攻擊非常多的方面但是防守的部分確實有點很多時候是會有點疲於奔命是"},{"start":11656.35,"end":11682.352,"text":"補充說明一下我想就台灣來講要捍衛我們的國家安全以及反制中共的統戰滲透最大的武器最重要的武器就是法律所以我們的法律工作法律工具一定要完備那這也是為什麼剛剛王定宇委員也在提醒我們我們從各種不同案例當中怎麼樣找出樣態那在適用我們的國家法律過程當中又有沒有哪些灰色地帶不適用的地方這部分我們還配合貴院來做一些相關的檢討跟提供意見給各位委員參考"},{"start":11682.972,"end":11708.405,"text":"局長因為時間有限我只希望透過這幾個具體案例的提示也希望國安局、調查局或是其他相關的部會能夠有一個整合的狀況千萬不要出現一個案例然後才去動作那這個時候可能他就已經拍拍屁股走人已經離開了那這個是我們其實最不希望的是不是可以把其他相關的這些同樣的這些所謂樣態再做一個進一步的整理交給我們國防外交委員會好謝謝委員提醒我們來處理"},{"start":11712.401,"end":11713.042,"text":"今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有陳永康委員、洪森漢委員"},{"start":11730.396,"end":11752.563,"text":"牛許廷委員、葉元芝委員提出書面質詢．請列入記錄並刊登公報．請相關機關以書面與兩週內答覆．委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分．或要求補充資料則亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供．委員另約定期限者從其所定本日會議到此結束。散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}