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心處理的話應該會有共識的很快。也跟副總召商量,結果三年我們還在開黨黨會議。我們開去,後來總統很厲害,我夢想法院找我說,欸,那總統這麼厲害,董事長叫我講我要去處理,我說沒問題啊,大家都,兩邊都把燈把大開就好了。不要在那邊,要趕在,要趕在,那是沒暫時離開的。"},{"start":2634.586,"end":2635.106,"text":"案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":2650.195,"end":2656.821,"text":"這整個我們要把它處理完畢嘛。OK。總統會議。結果我們在開總統會議的時候這邊開始在罵我們。我看黃國昌衝動跑來。黃國昌總統應該是有一個公聽會怎麼樣。但是從頭到尾我們都是一句話。講話就是一句話。"},{"start":2671.007,"end":2691.424,"text":"你說白的沒有意見,哪裡有意見,然後我們就是今天早上九點開始,這樣一句話。當然我們後續的安排,不管怎麼樣,我們要把整個做完成。所以在這裡,我要拜託韓院長,你作為院長應該有一定的中立,第一個。"},{"start":2693.447,"end":2718.374,"text":"二、當他們在罵我的時候,你叫他們每一個人在罵一輪,你應該做到手勇氣說,這個我跟董事長談好了。應該是馬上制止,不要在那邊私下在公審,在那邊講得很難聽。所以讓院長必須要有一定的高度。這你應該擔起來擔起來,因為我們這樣大家講好了,你應該很清楚講表述,這個事情就是如此。"},{"start":2719.875,"end":2740.748,"text":"這是第一點,我必須提出我的看法以及像韓院長昨天你這樣處理我倒是蠻失望,假設我已經說滿面共這就是我跟老柯講好跟黃國昌也講好,就是明天這是一句話大家不要再走,不要再夾蔥夾料在那邊,這是第一點"},{"start":2741.994,"end":2766.59,"text":"第二點我要在這裡問一件事情就是說當初吳謙一從在大陸投票我們要調錄影帶因為他都不給那今天我要問立法院的錄影帶錄影帶是誰所以一定有辦法嘛我記得很清楚過去人檢調來要調我們立法院的錄影帶要辦案子那時候公安的時候"},{"start":2770.973,"end":2772.994,"text":"一、國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":2800.202,"end":2801.323,"text":"立法院黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":2820.606,"end":2830.172,"text":"通訊打電話過去你就馬上拿出來。」這是有影響到各自有影響到另外安全而且而且我在這裡講還能講總統講的一樣非常不適當的法"},{"start":2833.615,"end":2858.972,"text":"因為你再一看就是防解一開的嘛你還講說這個只要外面人進來的話這個安全就很大問題不要讓天油加醋啦這不好手將沒有啦沒有手將直接沒有沒有外面的人所以這個到這個草案工房不出其招我們今天要談的是為什麼我們要這樣的行為因為過去國民黨"},{"start":2860.473,"end":2877.041,"text":"南白不是為了日晚之間新書法,這樣暫已完成議場,然後用這樣表決,現在明天下午大方要開審理期,要暫時處分的裁定庭,明天各黨都要去。"},{"start":2879.622,"end":2894.098,"text":"所謂很多事情要了解於前因後果（例如人們能來朝野互相公安前天都有的事情（只要在各種程序上、各種有自己的方法（"},{"start":2895.499,"end":2896.24,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．一、研商有關"},{"start":2914.942,"end":2938.084,"text":"而且不能提前正在修改。你用這樣的同樣的審判法你把罷免的話,罷免就Thank you,罷免非理,罷免王杰過,也罷免過王浩宇。但是現在突然就是說民意起來,民意對抗的時候怕被罷免,你就要修改,用你沒有辦法,用身份證當你沒有辦法罷免。這些"},{"start":2939.741,"end":2956.152,"text":"因果關係都要弄清楚。」我覺得要講的就是說,院方一定要總理,假如這樣的話我們是不是會掉,我為什麼剛剛蘇美把人扣到那裡,讓錄影帶她走路的行徑,到國民黨二零一的時候,門怎麼打開要鎖起來。"},{"start":2958.177,"end":2972.394,"text":"為何昨天會時間到一、四人員全部不來二零二幫會議室呢?也沒有簽到,連保資料都不來,人都不見。反此種種,坦白講,院長,"},{"start":2974.036,"end":2988.281,"text":"你的綜藝性是非常重要的,你的綜藝性非常重要。不過今天要講就是說,我們都很清楚,院長那天我上禮拜五我聽說黃木乃組長說要昨天下午兩點半要協商,我說當然我對。"},{"start":2993.343,"end":3001.609,"text":"刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪"},{"start":3014.164,"end":3040.166,"text":"我在立法院黨總召長二十幾年,草案相我從來不缺席的。沒人不來我還會在那邊做。但是呢,大家有原因可以商量的,改時間當然是都可以商量的。包括我們這位你當院長以來,很多要草案相的時間你都甄請大家可以,我都盡量配合。是這樣的吧。所以不要在那邊講說民進黨紀寫草案相怎麼回事,這樣缺席審判。這些都是極大不道德。"},{"start":3042.308,"end":3069.56,"text":"科建民總召提的兩個部分我從第二個先講所降這個事情昨天在內政委員會我們立法院某一位委員帶了一位類似像秘書這樣去開這個門錄影帶的事情我們在散會之前會跟各位做一個報告我們現在因為總統委員還不在我們不浪費寶貴時間等一下散會之前會做一個報告第一件事情科總召非常堅持的就是上禮拜五協調昨天的開"},{"start":3070.28,"end":3086.797,"text":"草疑協商的事情．科總召所講的每一個環節都是正確的,他所做的跟我聯絡打電話,包括跟侯木凱書記長跟我聯絡,是不是不要開,我說不行,我們因為時間已經有點不夠了,要開,然後侯木凱委員希望兩點半,"},{"start":3088.018,"end":3089.079,"text":"刑事部長郭文貴議員"},{"start":3110.672,"end":3112.093,"text":"草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．事由．刑"},{"start":3130.62,"end":3156.6,"text":"有朝一日有一天綠軍在這裡來開會藍軍或白的民眾黨跟國民黨如果他不來的話你們要求發言我們準時坐到這裡的時候也一樣會給你們發言的機會雖然有政黨不到但是準時來的委員希望發言的時候我還是會讓大家來發個言發言以後把一些想法講出來絕對不是缺席審判這一點我跟柯總統特別報告然後您剛剛所講的每一個環節你都做到了"},{"start":3157.423,"end":3157.703,"text":"條例草案．一、研商有關"},{"start":3181.803,"end":3200.89,"text":"你講的和我講的都有對焦這是你發言的部分你又來了就給他發言我也知道你的苦衷但是呢你要有道德勇氣所以這個東西我跟老柯都講好了他說不要談不要再做切與審判他說講好就是一句話就是一句話是這樣嘛一棒在牙然後直播在連這個"},{"start":3203.949,"end":3224.02,"text":"當期開會講的口誤橫揮,講到別的地方去了,大家在那盡忙發揮,到底是怎麼一回事呢?你跟我講說白人沒有意見,男的有意見,然後我說那你說,那就幾面轉場再來。就一句話,你應該馬上自己說,這個東西經過大家講好。假如我是你的話,我已經有道德的勇氣,人家請你什麼,這就是這樣,大家說好了。"},{"start":3225.461,"end":3252.052,"text":"我們現在審《電業法第四十九條條文修正草案》如果大家因為這樣一直發言下去的話經濟部部長跟台電都在這裡這樣好不好昨天如果大家有認為有不適當的地方通通算我的這樣好不好大家都不用發言是我做的地方也許不夠周全不夠完善你們如果重複這樣的發言的話我們今天這個議程會整個麻煩那你這樣張其凱也舉手了"},{"start":3253.875,"end":3268.852,"text":"因為科掌上有關...不不不,稍微等一下,請曾院長主席。黃山偉也要發言,黃孟凱偉也要發言。"},{"start":3271.345,"end":3299.769,"text":"我們先協商,我們到電業法協商我們再處理好不好,沒那麼難看好不好。我正式的建議我們黨團幹部,我請大家針對我們昨天的事情,請大家先不要暗表不談好不好。我們先來尊重電業法,你看經濟部的郭部長都已經第三次來了。你把電業部的事情再弄也不好看好不好。我們現在請提案的委員,等一下我們請電業法討論完畢之後,在討論考試院之前我們再來討論。好不好,請大家稍微,稍微問一下。"},{"start":3300.129,"end":3300.81,"text":"我們請國民黨黨團請提出說明"},{"start":3321.857,"end":3345.933,"text":"國務部長謝謝你第三次來抱歉不好意思不好意思我們立法院還是有一些家務事每次都讓你聽現場的感同身受一下我們這邊都雞同鴨講但是沒有辦法還是這樣我們希望說國務部長新年新氣象因為你來自業界"},{"start":3347.509,"end":3375.041,"text":"所以對一些社會的脈動可能會更加了解,而不是在一個象牙塔一個基礎官僚所以問到所提出來的這個電法修正案希望百分之百民意的國會也有各種政黨而且各種不同的聲音我想剛剛部長也聽到了各種不同的聲音就這個就是立法院這個多元民主的一個國會平台對於"},{"start":3378.058,"end":3396.212,"text":"修官名聲非常自拒自大的電費．電費不管是有各種的波動都會影響到．不管是國內的產業也好、經濟也好、物價也好．這個事關重大。"},{"start":3397.165,"end":3400.486,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":3427.204,"end":3454.777,"text":"行政院對於電價要做任何波動的時候應該在討論之後中央主管機關討論之後送到一個月之內要送到立法院來審議"},{"start":3456.87,"end":3480.736,"text":"對於民眾黨今天有提出修正動議,就是在行政院審議期間,學者、專家、相關民間團體代表不得少於二分之一。審議方式及其他應注意事項應基於公平、公正、公開、透明的原則由中央機關訂定之。這個部分我們也竟表同意。"},{"start":3481.909,"end":3503.431,"text":"我相信我們在禮拜五的修正動議當中也會把跟民眾黨來做成一個彼此的一個協商但是這兩樣是可以並行的兩樣並行的就是基於對民意的尊重大家可以把所有相關的事情還有國內會造成什麼樣的一個影響"},{"start":3505.151,"end":3509.054,"text":"法第四十九條條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":3532.611,"end":3535.934,"text":"一百四百分之百無的地方（補充報告一下,現在有民進黨黨團跟臺灣民眾黨團提議修正動議並案討論,我們請議事人宣讀一下。"},{"start":3545.449,"end":3570.172,"text":"台灣民眾黨團提案第五項前項審議會之學者、專家及相關民間團體代表不得少於二分之一審議方式及其他應注意事項應據公平、公正、公開、透明的原則由中央主管機關定之,其與現行法相同。民主進步黨團提案第四項第二具"},{"start":3571.24,"end":3598.333,"text":"德改為因．五、前項學者專家及相關民間團體人數不得少於二分之一．其組成因．包含相關專業及社會團體意見．代表確保專業審議．第六項,審議會審議電價時．除參酌第二項依計算公式．擬定制電價及各種收費匯率．亦應考量對民生物價及產業競爭力．及能源使用效率之影響以維護社會公立。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":3600.332,"end":3620.165,"text":"現在請吳思耀委員發言。現在在處理電業法四十九條,那原來要提出來是國民黨的一個最後一項,很明確的要求是審議會的決議要從立法院審議後實施。第二個就是分別由民眾黨團跟民進黨團今天都有一個修正動議。"},{"start":3621.121,"end":3621.781,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":3646.158,"end":3650.14,"text":"負責消費者團體、工總、商總、學者專家 。」此組成,我們認為是有韓國民間意見的表達,而且很重要的是他們有電價相關審議的專業,所以這樣一個審議的機制,它可以非常開放性,而且可以反映民間的思維,去進行整個台電的"},{"start":3672.136,"end":3673.217,"text":"法第四十九條條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":3694.958,"end":3717.936,"text":"而這個公式更在2015年也是依據立法院的決議所以台電從2015年定定出一個計算電價的電價公式是2015年立法院的決議2017年進一步的入法也是立法院通過的法律"},{"start":3719.24,"end":3746.03,"text":"當然現在國民黨團想要在修法來調整這個就是要回到我們過去長年以來的討論究竟誰有能力來進行電價的審議就民進黨團的立場其實也不是只有民進黨團我們看看世界各國的趨勢各國的做法從來沒有立法機關來介入來決定世界各國"},{"start":3747.29,"end":3766.99,"text":"都是由專業審查的機制。」我要再次強調電價是專業而不是政治可以來決斷第二個很重要我們自己在立法院的現場都知道每個議程議案的安排其實它極具高度的不確定性"},{"start":3768.834,"end":3775.769,"text":"財電的電價、它的決定、它的收費都應當能夠支持台電的穩健運作。」"},{"start":3778.208,"end":3804.54,"text":"如果說把台電的電價的決定交由一個在運作上本身議程高度不確定的立法院．其實對於審議過的期程．他必須處置的時間都很難以讓台電的公司治理．台電的文件營運．他的整個營餘的處理．他的整個財務的分配都會受到政治力來干預．"},{"start":3805.686,"end":3826.777,"text":"所以我簡單來歸納第一個,台電的電價審議從公示到審議會的成立都是立法院我們過去依立法院的決議跟立法院修正的法律來進行也進行了這麼多年第二個,世界各國沒有像現在國民黨的提案要由立法院來審議電價審議的結果"},{"start":3830.285,"end":3849.818,"text":"要降一定要立法院通過才能處置這個是全球罕見。第三個,如果讓這樣的電價審議的結論交由立法院來審議,它極具在議事程序上的高度不確定性,它不利於台電的財務穩健的運作。第四點,請讓專業回歸專業。"},{"start":3857.958,"end":3883.163,"text":"電價審議絕對是高度的專業,現在的審議會都是專業界的代表,各界的人士這個審議會怎麼組成也是過去立法院多所討論而決定的。基於這四個原因,我們認為交由立法院來決定,就是國民黨團的提案,這是難以接受的,也在現行的處理上會造成台電的營運上很大的困難,很大的困難。"},{"start":3884.184,"end":3912.507,"text":"最終一點就是責任政治啦!責任政治啦!台電的永續營運這個是責任政治嘛!經濟部要承擔、執政黨要承擔喔!如果立法權用一個修法的方式要把行政權能夠處理的事情來作為一個進圍取代、越組代跑如果台電的營運發生了危機、台電發生了狀況"},{"start":3913.948,"end":3937.828,"text":"或台電可能有財務營運不佳破產之餘﹖我都講到這最相對困難的極端那這責任是政治之下立法院能負責嗎所以基於五個原因希望在野黨提案的委員可以再多多深思我們不能切莫做出一個不宜、不正確也不好的一個修法提案謝謝"},{"start":3939.35,"end":3950.57,"text":"謝謝吳思瑤委員的發言那特別跟經濟部郭部長還有曾董事長報告一下你們稍微等一下請個黨團發言完畢之後等一下會請各位發言接下來我們張琦卡委員發言洪森漢委員請準備"},{"start":3952.472,"end":3981.59,"text":"接下來洪孟楷委員也請再準備好請今天電力法修正非常重要也很高興齁我剛剛看了民進黨提出了修正動議從善如流跟我們台灣民眾黨一個多月前我代表台灣民眾黨提出的案子非常接近我們不要說你們抄我們的啦回應了民意從善如流那剛剛副總召已經提了他也贊成台灣民眾黨的這個修正動議所以我今天應該是三黨都有共識的嘛齁"},{"start":3982.19,"end":4000.001,"text":"用我們一個多月前提出來的修正動議。」那我強調一下,顯然過一個半月多前,我們台灣民眾黨必須提這個修正動議,電業法為什麼要修?因為當初電價要漲,我們苦口婆心回應民意,民眾應該講兩個很重要的。"},{"start":4002.301,"end":4027.615,"text":"能不能不要漲、第二要漲能不能少一點點甚至你要漲你把你的能源的結果講清楚特別有沒有買電買太貴的事情我代表民眾黨團上去質詢了好幾次甚至我後來提案了立法院的院會都通過了要求經濟部跟台電來經濟委員會跟經濟委員解釋清楚民眾的這個需求結果"},{"start":4029.346,"end":4058.275,"text":"完全不遵守。」不是只有打臉臺灣民眾黨立法院,打臉整個立法院的院會的結議,所以後來我們被迫必須進一步想盡所有的辦法提修正動議。我要強調喔,民眾的要求是很卑微的喔,只是要求你在審議委員會、店家審議委員會裡面有二分之一以上是由學者專家跟民間的代表。目前目前"},{"start":4060.353,"end":4076.412,"text":"看起來是行政權不只是獨大而且變成獨裁了立法院通過什麼?他們完全不遵照事業一號漲價到現在有一個交代嗎?有一個解釋嗎?連一句解釋都沒有所以我們明確的要求至少以後組成"},{"start":4078.773,"end":4106.594,"text":"學者專家跟民間的代表必須要超過二分之一以上。」目前官方是十五到十七個裡面,我看了最近的開會,都是官方九個。民間跟學者專家八個。這是一個。第二個,程序是要公開透明的。我要強調一點,我們一個多月前提這個案子,以後發生了多少事情?台南的八十八槍。立洋的案子被起訴。"},{"start":4108.107,"end":4130.763,"text":"檢察官職責罪、起訴書裡面怎麼講?跟台電買電的報告收得多少?九十一億。昨天還發生更聳動的。台南、西匪、李宿町,被打了十一槍。現在你們買電,特別是光電,已經不是六十幾個案子起訴。你現在買太貴,買出弊案,現在買出命案來了。"},{"start":4132.133,"end":4150.596,"text":"人民不是很清楚要求你說,你至少給我一個交代解釋清楚啊,搞不好只能跟我說光電到底要怎麼樣去降價或怎麼談嗎?我是很高興,我聽說部長有在追這件事情。查清楚為什麼買光電,買一些電為什麼要這麼貴,我在執行委員會,民間人也在問,我們跟民間電廠買的有沒有太貴?"},{"start":4152.114,"end":4164.925,"text":"二、能源結構為何必須把最便宜的核三廠一號機、二號機停掉你用四倍價格火力全開去用燃煤、用天然氣這都是人民很卑微的要求叫你講清楚"},{"start":4166.072,"end":4168.133,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":4185.472,"end":4210.662,"text":"很謝謝!很謝謝!孟芳初中!很謝謝今天民進黨能夠從善如柳支持我們台灣民眾黨的案子那也謝謝副總長所以我覺得可以按照台灣民眾黨的版本來通過那我做個建議啦因為民進黨現在提的案子跟我們的案子是一樣的那後面我可以把民進黨的那後段再加進去我同意你們除了講這個你們除了"},{"start":4214.468,"end":4240.201,"text":"我們提案前向審議會之學者專家及相關民間團體代表不得少於二分之一。」我剛才說的以後不要再出現官方的代表獨裁又獨大至少要反過來民間學者專家二分之一另外審議的這個方式跟注意事項一定要公開公平還有公開透明原則好不好甚至要考慮一下要不要前程直播"},{"start":4241.322,"end":4250.402,"text":"審議的過程．現在審議完之後．後來都有把書面都送上去．記錄都送上去．我們要不要像前陣子那個．你看那個Face的那個辯論會"},{"start":4251.86,"end":4280.68,"text":"都已經公開了電視直播以後讓人民更重要的人民有很多的要求你要及時去回應我就要及時回應都要求他講的你會不會買太貴合三合兩要不要用人民要問你要回答問題好不好那另外我同意除了通過我們這個提案之外你們另外一個提案我贊成把它列進去民進黨不一樣除了贊成我們的你們講的這個二分同意我們的二分之一對不對一二分之一你們還有什麼後面那個"},{"start":4285.588,"end":4305.621,"text":"審議會議、審議這個電價的時候,除了參酬第二項依照計算公式擬定之電價及各種收費費率,亦應考量對民生、對物價、跟產業競爭、海域競爭力以及能源使用效率之影響,以維護社會公益。」我同意把它列進去,好不好?第六項,真的第六項,好謝謝,謝謝,謝謝"},{"start":4310.284,"end":4313.346,"text":"刑法第四十九條條文修正草案（事由．立法院黨團提議．立法院長"},{"start":4332.054,"end":4355.381,"text":"在討論這件事情我覺得最關鍵的一個問題我覺得大家必須回答的事情是到底我們期待電價的審議跟決定是由專業來審議還是由政治來決定我覺得這是最關鍵的事情剛剛張祺凱委員的講法裡面第一個我覺得他我聽出來他其實算是尊重"},{"start":4356.465,"end":4375.273,"text":"某些電價審議委員會裡面的民間委員的角色。」我聽出這件事情,好,但要記得一件事情,現在很多的這些專家學者是反對國民黨要求要把電價再拉進立法院來審議的。所以如果你也贊成專家"},{"start":4377.233,"end":4400.149,"text":"尤其是電業相關的專家在電價上面的專業意見的話不要漏掉他們是反對現在國民黨的提案的所以剛剛民眾黨想要弄一個並行藍白並行的這個做法又想要包牌我覺得這個是抵觸的再一點我再補充幾件事情這份聯署書是當初在四月的時候"},{"start":4401.27,"end":4414.345,"text":"藍白想要一起來阻擋電價調整的時候．有大概三十幾個專業的民間團體．還有四、五十個民間的學者．一起提出了聯署書．不要忘記裡面有一位"},{"start":4415.35,"end":4436.037,"text":"他的名字叫做肖黛基（我想三山委員很清楚知道（肖黛基也是柯文哲在總統大選非常非常倚重的能源顧問（他一樣站出來反對當時藍白希望阻止電價調整（也包括尤其修改電業法四十九條（要求把電價審議的機制"},{"start":4439.417,"end":4465.86,"text":"要送到立法院再審議．他也反對這件事情．他們都認為這是讓政治凌駕專業的做法所以剛剛如果張其凱委員也重視電價審議委員會裡面的專業意見的話那應該要瞭解他們是反對國民黨提案的所以民進黨不應該一面說我要我的這個提案又可以接受國民黨的提案這是假的第二件事情我要強調這一位"},{"start":4467.35,"end":4474.518,"text":"這位是誰?這位是商總的理事長許書博,他不是民進黨的吧?他也是現在電價審議委員會裡面的代表,他就出來嗆聲囉!"},{"start":4476.311,"end":4477.692,"text":"法第四十九條條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":4500.849,"end":4523.613,"text":"民進黨的提案我們其實也是去檢視了過去在電業審議委員會裡面運作的方法我們也認為其實讓電價的審議更專業是好事所以我們基本上我們同意讓民間的專家委員跟團體代表超過二分之一這是一個但第二點不要忘了"},{"start":4524.636,"end":4552.742,"text":"我們甚至把原本是德邀集電價審議委員會我們直接把它改成因這代表我們就是希望讓電價審議的機制更往專業走的決心這是民進黨裡面沒有的所以如果民進黨也同意的話那其實是你們起義來歸是你們從善如流我們也很贊成我們也很支持不過這沒有關係可是我的意思是如果剛剛按照張一台委員講的我們希望讓他回歸專業的話"},{"start":4553.882,"end":4554.282,"text":"草案．立法院黨團提議．一、研商有關"},{"start":4576.44,"end":4583.388,"text":"政治攻防的籌碼,變成政治決定的這種大家過去不樂見看到的狀況,我們一起讓電價審議更專業,這事情我們同意。」"},{"start":4589.083,"end":4611.862,"text":"謝謝洪森漢委員的發言,接下來請洪孟肯委員發言,請黃珊珊委員準備。好,院長感謝。我想神藝天價,尤其是這個四十九條,大家各黨團可以提出各自的立場,但是真的不用說吃別人的豆腐。我覺得我們站在理性務實專業的角度來看,當然希望"},{"start":4612.583,"end":4639.504,"text":"民意代表就是要把關為人民發聲所以說我們也要幫人民發聲啊重點是國人我相信沒有一個國人不希望說用專業來說話用專業來判斷我想過去在電業法審議的時候為什麼會有電價審議小組那個時候就是希望是說有專業啊專業的審查小組完了之後都可以告訴我們到底國際能源趨勢如何然後這個電價事實的調整但不要忘記啊"},{"start":4640.525,"end":4665.924,"text":"過去從2018年我們電價連7動連7次動漲甚至最高的國際成本藍媒成本在什麼時候達到最高峰無二戰爭的時候是在2021年但2021年那時候我們並沒有調漲電價明明大家都講是說國際的成本藍媒成本藍器成本大幅增加了但是為什麼那個時候民進黨政府主政之下並沒有調漲這有專業嗎"},{"start":4669.563,"end":4697.575,"text":"剛剛有委員代表講是說專家學者也請不要忘記也請容許我提醒當時民進黨政府主政之下的連期動漲的時候每一次動漲又有專家學者跳出來講是說他也認為說這種就是政治凌駕專業因為電價審議小組他們是不是確實有看到國際的能源的燃煤燃氣成本明明就漲幅了但是那個時候是動漲的那也因為是是不是選舉考量"},{"start":4699.364,"end":4727.414,"text":"事由其他的考量到選舉結束之後就開始漲．而且因爲前面的動漲反而讓後面的補漲或後面的漲價幅度更加的大讓國人感受到更加的不安因電價的漲價造成物價的全面提升以及物價的全面上漲所以我們講說萬物皆漲電是萬物之首就是這個道理"},{"start":4728.394,"end":4746.145,"text":"所以如果說可以回歸專業,我非常認同。我也希望電價審議小組就應該專業。因為電是大家都要使用的,能源是選擇。那國人既然大家都要用電,我們又要馬兒好,又要馬兒不吃草,不可能。"},{"start":4746.625,"end":4775.259,"text":"所以電價審議小組就應該本職專業,多少成本發電就應該要告訴國人清楚明白的資訊,而不是選擇性的辦案,選擇性的漲價,選擇性的動漲。你敢講,部長,您是來自產業界,你敢講過去這七次連期動漲沒有政治考量嗎?我相信不會。再來,有一個問題,我要拜託等一下部長跟台電這邊來回答。"},{"start":4776.513,"end":4805.444,"text":"因為電價跟發電量他是一個天平的兩端我們又希望我們的發電方式照現在民進黨政府規劃是非核家園我們又希望國人普遍大家又希望電價是合理的可以控制的範圍以及到底我們台灣電夠不夠今天最新的新聞嘛早上凌晨三點多桃園機場一行下跳電"},{"start":4808.578,"end":4815.79,"text":"刑場跳電、金船跳電、一航廈螢幕全壞、旅客找無登機資訊。」"},{"start":4824.295,"end":4848.24,"text":"沒有問題等一下請台電這邊說明一下請說明一下因為媒體的報導就是這樣寫桃園機場凌晨金船跳電一行下螢幕全壞我想這對一個國門來講這對於現在暑假的旺季大家要出國入國返回國門這狀況到底我們電夠不夠為什麼這過去這兩個月三個月跳電平船"},{"start":4850.421,"end":4874.732,"text":"部長,您來自產業啊。我想產業界也好或是民眾也好。你自己也講啦,台灣什麼電都需要。這是你前天上媒體專訪的時候所講的嘛。所以產業界也好、民眾也好,大家都希望的是我們能夠有一個合理可以負擔的電價,並且能夠有充足的電,不要有單身我們缺電的狀況。"},{"start":4875.732,"end":4900.682,"text":"甚至讓產業可以未來如同我們部長這邊想法AI產業要發展每年要增加平均3%的用電量五年就是15%到2030年的時候我們怎麼樣讓排碳又減少我們怎麼樣讓用電又增加我們怎麼樣又可以足夠用電然後電價又可以維持一個合力穩定的狀況這當然需要大家共同考慮這當然需要專業所以我簡單結論"},{"start":4903.001,"end":4929.957,"text":"我想民進黨今天所提出來修正動議這個專家學者二分之一的部分我們國民黨團是支持我們也認為是說本來就應該有專家學者跟相關民間代表審議並且公平公正公開透明原則這本來也應該連我們立法院都可以草野協商的時候都可以全程直播了那有什麼理由電價審議或是相關的部分我覺得政府部門做事能公開就盡量公開"},{"start":4931.317,"end":4952.462,"text":"讓國人都可以清楚明白、看到。」我想這也是一個負責任的做法跟態度那至於立法部門這個部分我們這邊當然也希望大家能夠討論因為我們也認為說立法部門這邊也佔有最高民意的一個表達所以綜合我想我們這邊也會再提出這個修正動議但是 對"},{"start":4954.246,"end":4976.401,"text":"我們會稍後再提出好不好但這重點在於是說我們希望能夠大家來做既然今天是協商大家互相來提出討論那我們也看大家各黨團能夠取得一個共識的一個部分我們再來繼續往下走謝謝謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員發言接下來黃珊珊委員發言莊瑞雄委員請準備"},{"start":4977.779,"end":4978.24,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4993.971,"end":5014.814,"text":"當時國民黨也提出所謂的動長,但是民眾黨提的叫緩漲。我們希望他們提出來,包括成本計算、物價到底怎樣,這些東西完了之後緩漲。所以我們並沒有跟國民黨一樣,所以這個可能請第一個要釐清。第二個,國民黨這個修正方案已經出來很久。"},{"start":5015.583,"end":5038.423,"text":"所以如果我們跟他們態度一樣的話我們就直接共提就好了所以我們沒有共提的原因也是如此也就是說台灣民眾黨為什麼提的修正動議是針對專家學者因為我想柯主席常常講理性務實科學我們尊重專業這個部分大概就是我們的立場所以我們希望說在專家學者裡面要讓民間超過二分之一這是我們一個多月前又提出來的方案"},{"start":5038.883,"end":5058.177,"text":"所以不是我們起義來歸,而是謝謝民進黨團的從善如流。」這是也必須要先釐清。那這個方案裡面很清楚的就是公開透明。公開透明的部分其實很簡單的就是說,為什麼大家對電價審議委員會有這麼多疑慮。所以我們每次看到結論,只看到結論。"},{"start":5059.177,"end":5060.217,"text":"草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":5083.745,"end":5106.387,"text":"合約記錄,要在會議結束後兩個星期公開,甚至包括公開它的發言重點,這個可能是必要的,不管將來是怎麼樣的結果。但是台灣民進黨立場很清楚,我們也認為專業的歸專業,在專業的情況之下讓大家知道過程,而不是單純的不要貼人家的臉色,也不要扣人家的帽子。"},{"start":5106.647,"end":5135.432,"text":"草案民眾黨態度很清楚,我們的立場就是我們的修正動議,我們修正動議希望能夠完成以後,我們也不希望變成是行政跟立法互相在爭執,那這個部分應該是讓經濟部負最終的責任,但是,但是,它必須要公開透明,接受監督。我們的決議就是希望他們的東西,我們原則上同意這個他們的條文嘛,所以其實這個部分兩邊已經有共識,現在就看"},{"start":5136.723,"end":5139.066,"text":"公開透明的部分再寫一下。接下來我們請張瑞雄委員發言。張祺凱委員請準備。謝謝院長。剛聽了黃珊珊委員跟張祺凱委員的一席話。"},{"start":5155.274,"end":5178.128,"text":"當然他們認為說每一個政黨都考慮到他們的整個對於整個電價如何去做決定每一個人都是起義來歸歸到台灣民眾黨那邊去了這其實賺了面子也很好通過民進黨的提案然後功勞算裡面的這好事這個經濟部一定非常開心但是重點就是說從2015年我們在審議這個電價的時候"},{"start":5182.21,"end":5205.573,"text":"整個電價審議委員會裡面在我看來把商業代表還有消費團體專家民間代表放進去他其實就是一個叫做公開這個就是對外在做公開那你說他到底有沒有獨立性要到什麼樣的程度才叫獨立性那現在你民進黨的修正動議裡面把組成的部分把它給確定"},{"start":5206.895,"end":5210.839,"text":"當成是因你組成裡面要有相關專業跟社會團體代表還有確保專業的一個審議那這一些把它強制以後這個是好事啦所以民眾黨要的這一些民進黨的條文就讓你們去完成這個要感謝一下民進黨但是我倒會覺得說"},{"start":5226.836,"end":5231.221,"text":"國民黨其實也應該好好徹底再想一下顯然他們還是認為說國會是最高民意機關然後呢到最後國會還是要有一定的一個角色"},{"start":5237.695,"end":5261.564,"text":"這個如果說再把它給放進去的話電價審議到最後還要在立法院來做一個決定的話中局做一個決定的話我相信這個要好好思考立法委員真的是沒有那麼大沒有大到說我們整個行政權在發動攸關整個民生或者電價它的一個波動都已經公開又獨立又專業團體那我們設置這麼嚴格的一個"},{"start":5265.725,"end":5266.906,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":5285.117,"end":5298.174,"text":"我看民進黨黨也非常滿意嘛那是不是國民黨黨有真正的一個想法你就明講嘛就只剩下到底要不要在一個月內送交立法院審議的部分而已嘛這樣才有辦法聚焦啦"},{"start":5300.494,"end":5316.494,"text":"謝謝莊瑞雄委員的發言,更正一下,按舉手次序,接下來是林世民發言,然後請張啟凱委員準備,對不起。好,謝謝院長。我想院長,協商如果要獲得結論,其實我想大家都要保持善意。"},{"start":5317.615,"end":5319.057,"text":"條例草案．事由．一、研商有關事宜相關事宜相關事宜相關事宜相關"},{"start":5341.519,"end":5360.605,"text":"好像說送到立法院來審議是多麼大不了的事．難道立法院會背離民意嗎．我想你們想太多了其實我想各位你們想一下你看那個現在原先的條文第一項我們的電費的這個收費的費率是怎麼算的他是有一個計算公式"},{"start":5361.866,"end":5386.314,"text":"所以這些專家學者他們做最後審議是按照什麼他們自由新政嗎不是啊他也是按照這個審議就是我們原本定的一個的計算公式算出來之後給他們做審議那為什麼會剛才會有如洪孟凱書記長講的會有明明我們的這個能源就已經漲價了那竟然可以連7棟"},{"start":5388.158,"end":5403.238,"text":"這什麼原因?難道那個公司有問題嗎?怎麼可能會一直這個電費你們就不漲?就沒依照你們的成本去漲?所以這個某部分來講我們就看到有政治的黑手介入嗎?行政權就去介入嗎?"},{"start":5404.44,"end":5429.938,"text":"所以我們認為說怎麼樣來平衡怎麼樣讓我們的立法機關也能夠代表我們的民意去監督整個店家的一個審議我想這一點很重要不是說這個國會來審議做最後一個審議去要經國會同意去看一下你們這個審議的情況程序怎麼樣因為剛才講到說那個民進黨那個提案我們也贊成啊公開透明啊整個審議的程序是公開透明的"},{"start":5431.199,"end":5456.06,"text":"這我們都贊同,但是最後把他交到我們立法院來做最後的一個行使同意。我想這是我們幫人民來把關。讓我們大家更了解說電價為什麼動,那為什麼又不漲,那現在又要漲。那你漲的一個幅度是怎麼樣?我想這並行不悖的啦,這絕對沒有悖離民意啦。"},{"start":5457.45,"end":5476.048,"text":"所以我想這個貴委員大家思考一下。好,李世民委員,謝謝你的發言,堅持我們最後一項國民黨團所提的版本。接下來張祺考員發言麻煩簡短一下,因為我們等一下行政部門還有說明。好不好,謝謝。好啦,謝謝,民進黨加國民黨加集齊。那我們的版本就要用我們的版本通過了。不過我要強調,事實上哪一個黨,"},{"start":5477.575,"end":5500.775,"text":"不是那麼最重要的,是全民營最重要的,而且要回應民意。」所以大家不要只有看我們的條文的表面,裡面真正的重點是什麼?第一個為什麼要把民間團體跟學者專家放進去?第一個是因為目前,就是要改革目前啊,目前的方式就是行政體系官方的代表獨大而且獨裁啊,"},{"start":5501.996,"end":5519.83,"text":"從二月份開始討論要漲到四月份漲到現在人民的訴求沒有被回應嘛獨大又獨裁所以必須要改這是第一個點第二更重要為什麼講到公開透明而且民間聲音要出來你到目前你是要回應人民的聲音啊我相信部長大概聽了一百次以上很多民間的這個需求"},{"start":5521.267,"end":5537.617,"text":"現在我們的能源結構有沒有問題?為什麼一定要挑這時候要漲?漲這個幅度多大?有沒有一個解釋?到目前也沒有詳細的解釋啊。買電有沒有買太貴啊?核能要不要用啊?部長可能上任到現在被問了一百次。署長跟文生大概被問了一千次以上了吧?"},{"start":5538.217,"end":5539.438,"text":"公開透明化公開透明化公開透明化"},{"start":5561.954,"end":5585.196,"text":"包括前程直播,更重要的人民有那麼多綱的疑問,買電也沒買太貴,核酸、核能真的不能用嗎?你的結構是什麼?你要回應人民啊。謝謝。謝謝乞丐委員。接下來請富坤齊總召,請發言。謝謝院長。我想今天的討論就非常的理想。部長也是在這裡啊,聆聽各政黨表達的意見。"},{"start":5586.69,"end":5612.522,"text":"我特別強調2017年執行到現在2017年執行到現在的原因也是立法院來定定的當時的這些遊戲規則啊就是事實上立法院終究就是代表百分之百的民意來做所有各種聲音的表達那現在我們重點是我們的能源政策是不是符合目前所有產業的發展"},{"start":5616.004,"end":5638.438,"text":"以及民生的需要是不是能夠完全來符合?而且民生是不是能夠承受這樣的一個波動?這個都是可以公開討論的。過去的制度是立法院來制定的,現在當然是可以。我要特別強調一下,"},{"start":5639.622,"end":5649.764,"text":"我們要謝謝今天我們在討論過程當中不斷地在強調一件事情強調一件事情叫專業我想我們部長是很專業的一直強調專業專業我非常認同專業但是今天郭部長說可能當然是一個選項馬上被執政黨打臉專業的意見有聽到嗎"},{"start":5669.13,"end":5693.606,"text":"所以我們必須來省思而且我們今天做一個負責任的在野黨我們怎麼會讓國家台電要倒閉誰負責就是因為我們認為如果倒閉誰要負責所以我們很負責任在明天由國民黨來排審國民黨的提案和珊要不要研議現在我們擔心台電會不會倒"},{"start":5697.197,"end":5720.291,"text":"財業黨提議．民進教育委員會審查這應該是執政者來擔心的今天我們財業黨在費心有沒有月主帶袍但我們不會覺得因為這個就是國家的事情這是財業黨應該要做的事情所以我要特別表示臺電如果倒怎麼辦我們大家一起面對"},{"start":5721.699,"end":5742.976,"text":"為什麼這兩年我們中央政府到底補助了多少錢一千億、兩千億、三千億、四千億為什麼要補助因為台電可能會倒這麼大的虧損要怎麼解決這是花人民的錢我們可以當作沒有看到嗎所以說這個部分我們一定"},{"start":5744.031,"end":5768.349,"text":"是未來是不是無底洞?」我們明天已經排了這個核酸是否研議的這個審查還有整個再生能源這整體的政策這是應該可以公開來討論的發生了這麼多的社會的這些衝突跟兇殺的事情這個當然是要來面對但是我還是要表達立法院一定是最後的捕手"},{"start":5770.265,"end":5791.677,"text":"這有各種的聲音,百分之百的名義是在國會。我們當然尊重專家學者,但如果專家學者一句話就講完,那專家學者是誰請的?到底有沒有各個政黨都有邀請專家學者?組成是怎麼組成的?"},{"start":5793.343,"end":5817.471,"text":"還有一個最後我還是要表達,如果專家學者可以審議任何一切事情的話,以後國家總預算,那專家學者來審議就好了。法律的修訂專家學者來審議就好了。那國會做的是什麼?國會當然是最後的捕手。所以我們不可以否定國會它有的功能,跟它應有的責任,好不好?"},{"start":5818.562,"end":5844.291,"text":"福建總召,現在請柯建民總召請發言。經濟部郭部長請準備。好,下面就行政部門請說明。好,請柯總召。主席、各位同仁。海淀的電價問題長期以來就是一個很糾葛的問題。這當然攸關了所有人員政策,包括過去從民國49年,也就是1960年的時候就有一個公司。"},{"start":5845.211,"end":5861.748,"text":"但已被檢討,同時沒有遵循,後來行政院由於公眾事業審議委員會改為主議處。我們今天要談的就是說,我們在這裡針對剛才副總召最後的談話,他說專家來審查這個"},{"start":5866.912,"end":5888.009,"text":"公司的法．事由．立法院一算以當專家來審查．這兩個不可以類比的。審查一算法案是立法院我們是憲法所賦予的責任。那憲法有三條,立法院一決法律案、一商案。所以兩個不能說一生氣起來就跳動的那種比喻。"},{"start":5890.111,"end":5890.271,"text":"三、研商有關"},{"start":5910.253,"end":5925.427,"text":"我剛才講過本來就是有公視﹖後來公視沒有實施﹖後來主力出去那時候還有公共事業審議委員會等等太多了但是呢到一百一百零六年的時候二零一六年的時候"},{"start":5926.721,"end":5933.908,"text":"行政院長陳忠、經濟部長施言翔,到底現在有沒有公事?因為執政者都在考,不管哪一黨執政"},{"start":5943.797,"end":5963.87,"text":"法律及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律"},{"start":5965.45,"end":5989.242,"text":"財黨天天也挑戰政政黨．三十年的政府歷史一再重複地發生．所以二零一二十二十四月份的世界市場我就問．時任行政人員叫陳聰．那經濟部有誰．經濟部可能就是石岩祥．這些人都還在．那現在電家到底有沒有公司．以前不是有公司嗎．我們現在到底會怎麼來訂那電家調整的．"},{"start":5991.615,"end":6019.163,"text":"公司已經現在沒有再用,審議委會有,現在審議委會又凌晨死亡。所以這引發了一些問題出來。所以那時候我們在野,在野的時候我們一直挑戰這個東西讓它徹底解決。每一個人在過程中每一個人都撐壓過,要徹底解決,所以一直搞到什麼?"},{"start":6020.479,"end":6033.432,"text":"我們知道馬英文曾經動腦間架,造成裁定嚴重損失。所以趕快後來,他就送進來了。二、一、一二的時候,四月的時候,我們總之一開始執行,我們一直公布這一題。"},{"start":6035.014,"end":6054.506,"text":"大約二零一三月九月二十七日,終於行政院把公示送進來了。我記得他送進來的時候,各黨都會協商,他也很認真,你以為要協商,查詐案變成審查案。這一審查搞多久?搞了一年多。"},{"start":6056.508,"end":6080.947,"text":"二零一三九月二十七號送來的時候,後來三途通過是什麼?二零一五年的一月二十號。這是整個過程。公司送起來立法院通過。到二零一七年的民進黨執政的時候,在電業法第四十九條的時候,二零一七年一月份,把它入法了。這個過程都很清楚。到這一屆來,"},{"start":6082.468,"end":6109.16,"text":"藍白又弄一個動腸電架,糟糕了,動腸電架怎麼辦?所以大家在那裏協商,協商就說大家後來沒有結果,要表決嘛。那現在又有電業法修正衝進來了。於是就產生電業法衝進來。但是,今天晚上還是我們FBC的張旭凱以及黃商安委員所談的就是說他們有提一個案子,當然這個案子"},{"start":6110.8,"end":6137.701,"text":"這案子我就是說將來這個有他沒有提案子齁那這個案子和國民黨案子是完全不同這要透過處理的我現在先講清楚是你的案子當然我們能夠贊成嘛我們差一點不多那國民黨事業案子國民黨說要立法院來審查全世界沒有立法院就要有了那很糟糕了這沒有人看得下去立法院委員在審查店家你知道什麼叫"},{"start":6139.355,"end":6155.92,"text":"法定人數不足、國際規模的電價問題、IPP的電價等等,等錯電價等等、成本計算等等。這是高度專業的。所以我們要了解我們今天面對的是什麼?我們都知道"},{"start":6158.441,"end":6175.07,"text":"臺電引用虧損必須要處理．所以我在草屋鄉的時候我一直跟韓院長拜託有一個追加預算一千億已經送請院長、學長已經送來我們都還沒處理要講究臺電大概有三個方法而已"},{"start":6176.281,"end":6199.99,"text":"一、因為過去資本支付太多,而且核四個問題,兩千八百多億,它在吸收了。那這個還不能認定,認定下來財電走入破產了。所以整個財電的,大家知道,當你一個公司累積超過薪資一半的時候,當然"},{"start":6201.29,"end":6203.733,"text":"法第四十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":6218.347,"end":6238.201,"text":"當然是要給它漲電價．第三、政府要對於談戀補貼每年一千億的追加預算。這一部分跟主義總署大家都討論過而且送進來所以今天我們面對就是說回到理性的裡面來講"},{"start":6239.662,"end":6265.274,"text":"今天沒有什麼人在證供為過的。我們看到齊凱和黃宗安講的都很有道理。當然他是公民公開公正的原則,過去史萊利昂曾經提過這樣的一個版本,應該是這樣。我們也提出我們最後一項的看法,最後一項的看法,裡面還包括了人員使用效益等等。我們希望說,"},{"start":6266.474,"end":6286.563,"text":"大家把所有看法其中完整一點,但是有一個原則,就是說,國民黨的案子要表明清楚,我們共同來提一個,發布審議委員說選舉專案等等,那我自己改個因,我自己再改個因,沒有問題。"},{"start":6288.064,"end":6312.88,"text":"所以希望大家今天能夠理性來討論但是國民黨那一個說要立法院來審討,那不通了,全社會都沒有了因為接下來王思琴要來這裡審,主席要來這裡審這個是高度專業的,我覺得這個是我們要信任專家,立法院可以監督沒有錯但是不是立法院拿來自己處理,立法院絕對沒有這個能力,我一同報告"},{"start":6314.141,"end":6337.452,"text":"副總統發言,接下來我們請經濟部郭部長發言,請台電曾董事長準備。海業長以及各位委員大家好。我想以下我們對這個電價審議制度做一些簡要的說明。現在這個電價公式是依據立法院一百零四年決議通過的計算公式辦理。那麼也依據立法院決議設置這個電價費率審議會。"},{"start":6342.874,"end":6368.606,"text":"審議委員會．電價審議委員會有設置十七位的委員。我想剛才其他的委員已經說明了,我就不再重複。那麼針對本案,我們的意見是這樣的。第一個,多數國家都由行政部門或電力監管機構成立審議委員會,建立電價的專業審查制度。這第一點。第二點呢,這樣會使這個電價審議委員,如果"},{"start":6372.349,"end":6382.882,"text":"不這麼做,電價審議委員會失去獨立性,也會使電價審議結果具有高度的不確定性,影響臺電財務調度,不利臺電永續經營及電網強韌建設工作。"},{"start":6389.309,"end":6415.626,"text":"第三、因為電價的不確定,產業無法估算財務成本,會影響產業投資決策,對於社會以及經濟活動的穩定都會產生不好的結果。所以我們的結論是這樣的,如果專家學者能夠超過二分之一,我們行政單位是可以接受的。以上。謝謝經濟部國務長的說明,現在請台電曾董事長請說明。"},{"start":6421.278,"end":6422.68,"text":"事上任何的公司在編制"},{"start":6441.843,"end":6443.484,"text":"條文修正草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．一、研商有關"},{"start":6458.231,"end":6478.387,"text":"作法債判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判"},{"start":6481.75,"end":6482.511,"text":"條例草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":6508.089,"end":6522.196,"text":"可以去做後續相關的安排。」確實是我們在考慮整個電價設定的時候的一些用心。那最後我要跟院長也跟各位報告,就是很多委員不斷的問就是說我們電價成本結構等等是不是應該公開,台電的預算就會送立法院。我們是願意,但是資料很多,如果委員需要詢問或怎麼樣,"},{"start":6532.1,"end":6538.591,"text":"還有包括我們一千億的追加預算,如果有要審查,臺電公司一定善盡責任來跟大院做詳細的報告。謝謝。"},{"start":6547.02,"end":6550.883,"text":"三、研商有關〈刑事條例草案〉及刑事條例草案．三、研商有關"},{"start":6571.121,"end":6596.046,"text":"他就需要被特別關注,桃園也是,那我們會針對這一些需要特別關注的地區提早做一些換線的工作,於是也有討論到怎麼樣增加勞動力的問題在包商的部分。另外一個是高關注的地方就是我們有些重要的公共設施,事實上這次是桃機,大家如果還記得大概一個多禮拜以前,一兩個禮拜以前是松山,"},{"start":6596.866,"end":6602.064,"text":"他都是內部電路的故障而且他停你只要一看他停的是局部不是全部"},{"start":6603.072,"end":6628.809,"text":"通常都是內部電路問題比較多不會是台電因為台電是外部的他如果一停會是比較全面性的然後不會是單點的停那當然如果說有一些電路故障台電站在服務客戶的立場尤其是關鍵設施不管是醫院、醫院跟交通設施台電都會主動進去協助排除問題、排除障礙"},{"start":6629.429,"end":6630.27,"text":"條例草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":6642.645,"end":6643.766,"text":"條文修正草案．事由．一、研商有關"},{"start":6659.718,"end":6662.38,"text":"法第四十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":6686.241,"end":6702.888,"text":"下游切換﹖切換只是順庭一分鐘﹖一分鐘之後可能就是導致顯示器出了問題﹖大概是這個原因﹖是他們內部的問題。這個切換在停了一分鐘造成那邊是停了多長時間?他內部維修切換,他內部有些因為跳電所以基礎跳掉了。"},{"start":6708.53,"end":6709.311,"text":"草案．立法院黨團提議．"},{"start":6721.322,"end":6739.868,"text":"民進黨跟臺灣民進黨已經打成一個基本上差不多已經打成一個共識就黃國昌總召要不要補充說明好那現在就是國民黨那邊要是你所謂的共識就是現在國民黨跟民進黨都一致了那用我們的版本不要急那那個民進黨那一塊可以用類似負債賊這樣來提"},{"start":6741.568,"end":6769.739,"text":"請稿委,請稿委,你不要急,你很少來參加條例協商,所以你有點急,不要急,聽我說完。現在我們國民黨團現在兼職立法院這個,我先休息五分鐘,這五分鐘之內大家開始來進一步來協商。如果五分鐘之後,我們沒有辦法達成大家彼此共識的話,那我就要宣布我們出這個方式,好不好?好,來休息一下大家討論一下,因為我們也有機會達成共識。好,請休息一下。"},{"start":6779.48,"end":6779.99,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7400.271,"end":7402.393,"text":"財政部副部長、郭副部長、郭副部長、郭副部長、郭副部長、郭副部長、郭副"},{"start":7416.667,"end":7419.348,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":7442.725,"end":7465.675,"text":"接下來我們現在進行第二項協商議題考試院人事同意權案相關事宜先跟各位黨邊來報告一下總統是五月三十一日被提名人名單送我們本院同意本院在六月七日經院會決定交付全院委員會審查另外"},{"start":7466.926,"end":7491.712,"text":"本院新修正的職權刑事法已在6月24日總統公布,現在進行憲法法庭的處理程序中。三、基於上開的情況,到底考試院的同意權案我們要適用新法還是舊法,要先聽聽各位黨團的意見。不過在聽各位黨團意見之前,我先請幕僚單位法治局先做一個初步的說明。"},{"start":7492.782,"end":7518.4,"text":"另外針對新舊法的適用．考試委員的同意權案．我們院會時程會有是不是如何的不同．也要請幕僚單位一併為各位黨團幹部做一個說明跟分析．之後再請各黨團來表達意見．那麼麻煩請現場大家請保持安靜．我們請法治局請先做說明"},{"start":7532.111,"end":7535.052,"text":"條例草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":7540.959,"end":7568.015,"text":"正對法律適用的問題我先就兩個層面來說明第一個就是如果從一般法律適用的角度來觀察因為針對新舊法的適用中央法規標準法第十八條定有一般性的原則那原則上各機關在適用法規的時候如果在處理程序終結之前它所據准許的法規有變更的時候是適用新的法規那這就是一般我們所稱的實體重舊程序重新的原則"},{"start":7569.035,"end":7589.754,"text":"法務部也曾經在一百零三年曾經對這個法條做出含釋（它裡面有指出中央法規標準法是標條所稱的重新重用的原則的適用（它是指在處理程序終結前實際法規有變更者而言（那當然就是這個程序法規原則上就是依照程序重新的原則來適用（"},{"start":7597.518,"end":7617.507,"text":"法務部所作的函事,重點部分我有用螢光筆註記,讓為便於閱讀。另外,所以說呢,這次《職權歧視法》有關統一權的修正條文,因為也沒有特別去命定它的施行日期,所以原則上就是適用一般施行的規定,那自總統發布日就是113.6.24上到第三日,現在已經發生了效力。"},{"start":7620.808,"end":7626.212,"text":"草案及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及"},{"start":7646.465,"end":7658.455,"text":"那依照剛剛所報告的一般法律適用的法律來推論,原則上就是適用這個修正後的新法來行使相關的程序。那因為剛剛有院長有提到,就是有些主張認為說這個相關條文因為現在還在這個釋憲程序的成立當中,那所以仍然有爭議存在。"},{"start":7668.863,"end":7693.579,"text":"那是不是應該要直接適用新法等等的這方面的主張?那剛剛說明了就是說這個修正條文現在已經是有效施行公佈的一個狀態那本院是不是可以自主決定說來適用舊法或者是來適用直接適用新法或者是為了避免爭議來先適用舊法的程序的部分這四部分可以參考"},{"start":7694.6,"end":7717.565,"text":"大法官前面曾經作出釋字第三百四十二號解釋．那這位我也幫各位把印了附件的第二頁．有用螢光註記的部分也給各位參考．那這裡面提到了就是說．他的解釋理由書已經明文的指出．國會在行使立法權的程序．這些一時規範要如何進行是屬於我們國會的內部事項．"},{"start":7719.745,"end":7721.208,"text":"法律上稱之為國會自律或國會自治。各國國會的議事規範,除了在適用之際,"},{"start":7730.305,"end":7731.425,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":7752.29,"end":7755.371,"text":"條例草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":7782.135,"end":7790.544,"text":"第二件重點就是因為新舊法會牽扯到我們院會的時程會有非常大的不同我們請議事處的高處長請跟各位黨團幹部報告"},{"start":7799.366,"end":7820.113,"text":"法治局對於新法及舊法的適用,認為有國會自律原則的適用,當然不必有所謂的嚴格規定。為了要方便各位黨團幹部去了解說過去舊法時期或新法時期有什麼不同,在時程上我來做一個初步說明。各位"},{"start":7821.594,"end":7836.427,"text":"黨編手上有一個舊的時期的那個考委同意權案．也就是說上一次的那個黃榮春．也就是目前的考試院長黃榮春．跟這個周鴻燊副院長．那時候我們在一百零九年的時候．在院會的處理方式是公聽會．"},{"start":7837.928,"end":7839.489,"text":"條例草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":7860.063,"end":7860.704,"text":"相關事宜相關事宜相關事宜相關事宜"},{"start":7884.64,"end":7901.981,"text":"的口頭詢問跟說明。」所以我們在全院委員會的公聽會跟審查部分,總共的工作時間是運用兩天半的時間。那全院委員會一審查完畢,隔天院會就立刻進行同意權案的一個無記名投票。"},{"start":7902.501,"end":7926.118,"text":"所以整個全院委員會的一個審查時間．包括院會總共使用的是三天半的時間．在舊法時期它是比較緊密．但是新法的規定因為跟舊法有一些主要的不同點．在我們6月24號總統公布的新法．它有規定說這個同意權案自交付審查之日起．期間是不能少於一個月．"},{"start":7927.038,"end":7953.325,"text":"審查時也必須針對被提名人去進行分開跟分別的審查跟說明。」換言之說舊法時期我們把四個五個這樣子去把它一起列席一起詢問這個當然就是在新法時期就可能要做分別的處理那另外就是全院委會審查完略隔天要不要進行同意投票答案是不行的新法規定是全院委會審查完略之後"},{"start":7954.105,"end":7980.142,"text":"你離去審查報告要經過十天的等待期,院會才能夠進行同意權案的記名投票表決,跟舊的吳記名也不太一樣,要用記名投票表決。另外在全院委員會審查之前還有一個新的制度就是黨團可以跟被提名人提出書面的詢問,這個書面詢問要給被提名人十天的準備時間,而且被提名人也要寫下一個"},{"start":7980.862,"end":8006.184,"text":"詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．法治局有提供一個書面的解文,那全院委員會在進行口頭詢問的時候呢,這個背景人在回答問題之前也要拒絕,也要提供一個解文,所以針對解文的部分呢,我們法治局有提供一個解文的草稿,就是新法實習的解文草稿,可能要給各黨邊參考看看,現在就發下去。發給各位為幹部的手上。"},{"start":8007.329,"end":8008.75,"text":"檢查期間,依照新法規定是一定要開公聽會。」"},{"start":8025.231,"end":8044.166,"text":"這就是新法的規定因為它有一些等待期十天然後詢問也有十天所以如果我們將來決定要採用新法的話那個時程還有它的審查密度會比我們舊法時期的三天半可能會來得長一點至於說要長多少這個當然就是透過國衛之律我們來決定"},{"start":8045.487,"end":8067.99,"text":"那這個結文的部分現在是給各位黨編做參考（如果大家願意說將來新法如果真的要用的話（因為目前這個案子正在大法官的那個憲法疏通程式（如果說未來大家真的要用（對這個結文各黨團也有共識的話（那這個結文的參考格式就給大家參考（如果可以的話這個結文是拿來用的（"},{"start":8068.911,"end":8088.17,"text":"如果還沒有共識,我們是不會去在沒有黨團同意之下使用這樣的一個結文所以以上的初步報告就是說新法會比較長一點,舊法會比較快,大概是個三天半當然將來審查時程要排多長多短,就要透過國會之律來處理,以上報告"},{"start":8089.279,"end":8089.459,"text":"衆議院議員主席"},{"start":8106.4,"end":8129.702,"text":"指揮各位同仁,我想今天對於考試院的總統、院長、副院長引來質疑這考會的同情形勢,然後現在討論當然我們可以接受,但是不必跳得太痛,把所有的要結文什麼都弄出來。第一個我要講就是說,有關於我們上次"},{"start":8131.075,"end":8149.08,"text":"有關職員刑事法律委員通過以後．民進黨團以及總統府以及行政院．乃至於包括檢察院．四個單位事件齊發．也就是說那四個單位都有提出事件．同時也提出了暫時主任"},{"start":8151.121,"end":8152.542,"text":"草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":8181.014,"end":8198.527,"text":"包括黃國昌委員會去、吳宗憲、翁小玲、黨團有三個會去。共用三十分鐘,我們四個單位用三十分鐘,立法院的部分用三十分鐘,立法院的部分我們就簽了一檔。這個東西已經走過去,明天下午就要處理了。所以我們今天討論這個並不適當。"},{"start":8208.581,"end":8212.303,"text":"草案及保障及保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":8232.79,"end":8255.486,"text":"實體懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、"},{"start":8255.646,"end":8258.988,"text":"法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法"},{"start":8284.055,"end":8312.391,"text":"謝謝科建民主黨接著請國民黨團請發言好謝謝院長那我想這個剛才法治局已經講得很清楚了那我們立法院職權行使法現在已經三讀通過依照現行有效的法律我想立法院也要這個依法行政了既然職權行使法是這樣的規定那我們程序一定是重新的沒有重就的我想這個是我們法律的ABC"},{"start":8313.371,"end":8326.437,"text":"所以沒有所謂的什麼這個大法官會解釋就或者釋憲案倒是就總照的意思好像釋憲就一定會通過你是大法官你是大法官所以所以我們依照先行的職權行使法來去因為應該你的發言是這樣子我們聽到的是這樣子所以"},{"start":8336.781,"end":8339.785,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．三、研商有關"},{"start":8354.224,"end":8368.939,"text":"也是從大法官會議解釋三百四十二號就看得出來我們國會自律、國會自治我們依照我們的議事規則所訂定的相關法律依照我們大法官會議施治第三十二號就講得很清楚了"},{"start":8369.62,"end":8385.886,"text":"政院要尊重、行政院要尊重、行政院要帶頭來提副議．大法官會議其實就講那麼清楚了．整個立法的過程絕對是符合我們立法院自治的職權行使法．也符合我們國會自治的精神"},{"start":8387.313,"end":8406.566,"text":"所以我想我們整個立法院執行刑事法通過的條文．絕對沒有任何異議．我們依照我們現在的立法院的職權刑事法相關規定．對考試委員來進行相關的審查以上謝謝謝謝林思明委員的發言接下來請民眾黨請發言這個院長第一個"},{"start":8415.933,"end":8429.054,"text":"各黨團有各黨團的主張。」那我們這裡老實說這個場域也不是憲法法庭所以我覺得跟憲法訴訟有關係的部分"},{"start":8430.191,"end":8459.073,"text":"到憲法法庭不管是透過書狀還是透過言辭來加以表達在黨團協商的這個現場真的我覺得沒有什麼必要花太多的時間在辯論這件事要不然的話我覺得可能辯論個三天三夜時間都不夠用第二個部分我們法治國家就按照法律來施行在我國到目前為止還沒有創設一個制度是"},{"start":8460.686,"end":8476.256,"text":"申請憲法法庭進行法規範的違憲審查,就會導致法律凍結適用的效果。」不管是誰申請,都是一樣。就像人民對於稅法,他如果認為有違憲的意義,"},{"start":8479.614,"end":8503.829,"text":"進行裁判的時候在憲法法庭做出任何裁判以前也不會構成說我已經申請了所以我現在不用遵守相關的法規範不用繳稅這個我相信憲刑法的規定是很清楚那因此但我最後一個只有一個問題就是說不管是按照新法還是按照舊法"},{"start":8505.35,"end":8528.37,"text":"我們現在目前我們的院會按照上一次協商的結論是到七月的十六號以今天的角度來看其實就只剩下禮拜五跟下禮拜二兩天可以使用當然我了解各個黨團對接下來到底是要研會"},{"start":8529.651,"end":8546.511,"text":"還是要開臨時會有不同的主張我都尊重我們就按照議事規則來進行就好了只是說在整個時程的安排上不管是新法還是舊法當然我知道剛剛高處長做了一些清楚的說明因為新法"},{"start":8547.452,"end":8561.221,"text":"我們要求的審查密度是比較高的所以時間會長一點那舊法相對是比較鬆散時間可以把它排得緊一點但不管是長的還是短的基本上大致的時間區塊"},{"start":8563.022,"end":8585.88,"text":"是否可以稍微簡單的大家表示一下看法,那我們到底是要什麼時候做,不管我現在先不想進入啦,要開研會還是臨時會的這個爭執,這不是現在在檯面上面要處理的問題,不管是透過什麼樣的形式,我們是打算用七月的下半旬處理,用八月處理,"},{"start":8586.801,"end":8603.432,"text":"還是用九月處理．如果有一個比較大致的時間規劃的話．我相信對於本院．其他的同仁．他們在工作上面的安排．也會有一個比較清楚的方向。以上是台灣民進黨黨團的看法。"},{"start":8604.946,"end":8605.427,"text":"法律法律法律"},{"start":8627.233,"end":8629.414,"text":"草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":8648.422,"end":8650.483,"text":"草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":8674.415,"end":8684.873,"text":"院會之前簡單的一個程序上去議定十六號之後的相關的議事日程怎麼安排。這個議題留在那時候討論就可以了。謝謝。"},{"start":8686.676,"end":8704.873,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉賓、趙偉的發言。報告各位黨團幹部,我們《新舊法》的試用,大家意見不一,我們就擇期再寫商。法治局出您的結文格式的部分,就請大家共參。議事處會您訂一個時間上的分析,也請各位黨團幹部來參考。"},{"start":8707.035,"end":8730.902,"text":"現在已經接近中午之後我們今天有程序委員會很多黨團幹部都要去開程序委員會那中午也有到訪的外賓所以我們早上協商到此為止下午兩點我們繼續然後我們有一個打詐對不起我先把這個講完之後讓你發言我們有一個打詐釋法那是非常重要的一個法律案也要請大家踴躍出席請黃國昌總召請"},{"start":8733.103,"end":8755.778,"text":"議長,我們今天下午的協商有個預定的時間,還是把它全部處理完?兩點到三點,但是我希望能夠把它處理完畢,我們再散會,打架是法。請大家黨團要做好心理準備,可能我們明天後天也有可能要繼續召開草案協商,如果我們沒有處理完的話,好不好?"},{"start":8756.559,"end":8760.805,"text":"我講一分鐘就好。當然黃昌偉談那時候。我們曾經擦海祥過有關於從以前行動是臨時會處理的。那今天...請副分局總統請補充。抱歉喔。因為畢竟啊..."},{"start":8774.465,"end":8778.067,"text":"法案及人事同意權案相關事宜、研商有關"},{"start":8803.144,"end":8808.011,"text":"我們如果各位黨團幹部我宣布明天早上十點我們繼續協商可以嗎?黃國昌總請表示意見"},{"start":8820.998,"end":8821.498,"text":"實上明天是有委員會要進行"},{"start":8841.986,"end":8870.475,"text":"那這樣好不好請拜託大家後天時間全部空出來好嗎那個我要跟院長報告星期四司法法制委員會要排有關於反貪腐法制跟妨礙司法公正罪那所以就禮拜四的部分我必須要就是回去黨團再跟其他兩位幹部協調時間上面大家是不是能夠配合因為禮拜四的司法法制委員會"},{"start":8871.855,"end":8874.657,"text":"有重要的法案詢答．也要牌生．"},{"start":8881.214,"end":8903.646,"text":"你說你明天上午有委員會,那是專案報告嘛。只要有新的話你就先去發研究來的嘛。尤其當黨編的曹偉強一定要參加。昨天我們那個參加是有跟院長先言明在先的。從來在黨編當委員沒有說我會有委員會。你說這是第一優先嘛。因為大家都知道,你剛才自己也講清楚十二號、三十二號、十六號嘛。"},{"start":8904.586,"end":8918.891,"text":"打大司法﹑很多法案要處理﹖所以大家必須控制時間,這是黨內責任。黨內不能說我有委員會就來參加,大家一直拖著,每天都有委員會。所以我是希望就是說,黨內還是要做黨內的事情。已經到最後的時間了。"},{"start":8924.694,"end":8949.711,"text":"實践上可能明天比較適妥啦明天明天上午因為我們同時都是司法法治委員會的委員那明天那個專案報告如果委員可以早一點去安排質詢這樣那另外因為禮拜四的時間比較不妥也因為這個下午還有司法法治委員會的協商所以都會overlap這樣子對都會卡在一起但是我就說為了擔心到禮拜四都卡住明天可以先行協商"},{"start":8950.971,"end":8973.048,"text":"所以明天...吳宗憲也有排啦所以明天先協商比較...那個現在也是排在宴會上面最重要嘛對,所以明天比較好啦一定是明天後天一定要立即去協商了今天下午如果很順利打擾事法都協商完畢那我們心理壓力就減輕了所以我們做一個補充請黃國昌總長明天早上十點半"},{"start":8974.969,"end":8977.371,"text":"法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭"},{"start":8990.151,"end":9012.427,"text":"我是希望說大家可以盡量理性的來討論,盡量把時間空出來,但是確實有自然難心的部分大家都可以討論嘛。因為明天有憲法法庭的問題,那到五點,我剛才正詢黃總召,那是不是我們五點以後,到晚上十二點,我們都來協商?明天晚上?都可以談。"},{"start":9013.666,"end":9016.248,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":9041.164,"end":9042.947,"text":"我們在排這些時間的工作上面,我們都盡量配合。"},{"start":9051.482,"end":9055.284,"text":"條例草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．事由．立法院黨團提議．"},{"start":9073.226,"end":9096.062,"text":"就是本來委員會或現在法庭的工作結束了以後你要到晚上坐在這邊協商我都沒有問題我都沒有問題但我沒有辦法接受像柯建民委員剛剛那樣子的發言模式他的工作習慣他不去委員會所以他的時間都OK我們是習慣有要去委員會去做質詢的人"},{"start":9098.924,"end":9112.008,"text":"對我來講,柯建民你不能夠永遠都主張對你自己方便的方式。昨天下午,大家不是坐在這邊等你們嗎?你要解釋,那是你個人的解釋嘛。現實上昨天有召開..."},{"start":9124.622,"end":9145.27,"text":"我們尊重發言委員會的發言請您繼續所以我還是拉回來就是需要協商這件事情我再強調一次院長只要安排我們都會盡力的去做配合我剛發言的時候我只是很清楚的跟院長講說禮拜三禮拜四的時候我們本來排定的工作"},{"start":9146.03,"end":9165.992,"text":"各自有什麼東西,所以可能會產生衝突。」在這樣的情況下,我剛剛也說了,我會去協調黨團其他的幹部,看大家時間上面怎麼樣彼此配合,彼此安排。因為禮拜四的部分,星期四,各個委員會都還是有重要的事情。"},{"start":9166.713,"end":9187.488,"text":"在進行．事發法制委員會．等了非常久．終於反貪腐相關的法制．包括棄保潛逃．排上事發法制委員會．當然對我來講．我會希望的是禮拜四的時候．法案終於排案了．能夠在委員會裡面．好好的討論．好好的審查．"},{"start":9190.509,"end":9193.071,"text":"事由．立法院黨團提議．一、研商有關"},{"start":9212.603,"end":9230.535,"text":"就不願意來協商。」所以剛剛中國國民黨黨團說那如果下午以後等到白天的事情忙完下午以後到晚上來協商我都OK都願意配合我只是現實上面把我們在白天的工作目前看到的工作時程跟院長做反應"},{"start":9231.235,"end":9232.876,"text":"條例草案．立法院黨團提議．一、研商有關"},{"start":9246.981,"end":9269.679,"text":"事由．要補充發言是吧．盡量監督我想因為我們在這裡很和氣的希望針對最後有限的時間找出大家都可以同意的協商時間就這麼簡單請這個黃國昌總召不要搞得全世界你最忙立法院只有你最認真然後你還指著什麼柯總召不質詢這種事情我們都是司法法治委員會的"},{"start":9270.6,"end":9292.456,"text":"明天你要質詢、吳思耀也要質詢、我們的昭緯、鍾嘉斌也要質詢。我們只是在議案上怎麼排除,我們同時除了是個別委員,我們更是黨編。所以在工作的priority裡頭,應當有一個智慧可以去做時間的分派,去指導別人怎麼樣,我覺得這種都不需要。那更重要的是,"},{"start":9293.82,"end":9310.165,"text":"我們可以大家評評理每一次在這裡黨團協商柯建民總召永遠是從頭做到尾的人來來去去的人我就不要說了所以不要自己心中只有自己最偉大我覺得這樣都不是一個好的態度我也不想很有火氣的講話"},{"start":9311.505,"end":9312.226,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":9341.306,"end":9349.168,"text":"只是說到第九四真的還有更多的議案．可能時間上是更緊繃．大家心裡更有壓力．所以明天是合一的時間．10點到12點可以先來進行我嘗試性提一個建議．大家試試看"},{"start":9359.071,"end":9373.421,"text":"我們今天下午因為只有到三點三點之後有黨團幹部有事情因為你跟我溝通過意見所以我為什麼要宣布二到三其實我是希望今天下午全部推但有黨團幹部有事情每個人都有不一樣的事情那我就不數名字了那要不然就這樣"},{"start":9375.097,"end":9389.422,"text":"我們禮拜四早上十點半開始協商然後一直繼續下去把所有該協商法案一起合成那明天司法法制委員會跟下午的憲法法庭大家就專心去做萬一"},{"start":9391.303,"end":9411.944,"text":"我再重複一遍,萬一某一位黨團幹部有事情,你就請其他黨團幹部來代替一下,我相信絕對都沒有問題的。如果大家都同意的話,我們就後天早上十點半,我們就從頭一氣呵成,因為第二天禮拜五我們就要開始,最後清倉法案清倉日開始了。"},{"start":9413.439,"end":9413.819,"text":"草案．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":9441.042,"end":9451.114,"text":"三點鐘結束之後,我們禮拜四早上十點半,我們就一氣呵成,好不好?那我們下午兩點見,好謝謝。"},{"start":18403.415,"end":18414.58,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝各位黨團幹部,也謝謝各位今天歷齡的關心本案的立法委員同仁,也謝謝各位行政部門所有的列席的官員跟閣員。"},{"start":18416.124,"end":18441.807,"text":"那首先我們先介紹一下今天列席的各位閣員。第一位內政部劉部長,熱情歡迎。經管會彭主委,熱情歡迎。數位部、速發部黃部長,歡迎。法務部黃長賜,歡迎。行政院打擊詐欺辦公室林之義,歡迎您。司法院黃副秘書長,歡迎。"},{"start":18443.691,"end":18446.004,"text":"國家通信傳播委員會黃主任秘書"},{"start":18451.994,"end":18480.182,"text":"跟黨團幹部和各委員報告,我們繼續進行黨團協商主要是內政委員會報告並案審查行政院函請審議。台灣民眾黨黨團及陳廷飛立委十六人分別凝聚了《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案》以及今本會本院近乎二讀與相關提案並案協商之本院核心存等二十一人委員所凝聚的"},{"start":18481.143,"end":18484.209,"text":"詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．現在"},{"start":18486.046,"end":18510.072,"text":"有關本法案的協商．內政委員會的吳昭吉委員齊銘已經於6月28日先行召集第四協商會議。當天協商的結果保留第八條、第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文,其餘的條文均已經有了共識。為了節省各位黨團代表寶貴的時間,我們集中先討論"},{"start":18512.673,"end":18536.375,"text":"這四條的焦點,所以因此建議各位我們先行討論上述保留這四條條文,如果大家對已經有共識的條文還有意見的話,我們回過頭來再繼續討論。請問各位黨團幹部跟各位委員有沒有意見?我們還有今天有在提,修正同意,我們先把這個保留條文,保留條文我們現在金管會彭主委也到了,"},{"start":18536.895,"end":18537.696,"text":"案．草案．草案．草案．草案"},{"start":18558.118,"end":18582.39,"text":"所擬、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案等五案．從委員會抽出淨富二讀．以相關議案並案提倡．我們一併來討論。但我想建議先討論這四條有保留的好嗎?因為今天彭主委也來了。然後徐毅臻委員是主要所提出這保留的,也在現場。我們就這四條討論完,如果一切順利,我們就往下推進。那再有意見我們再回頭再說,好不好?好,那我們先請這個"},{"start":18585.849,"end":18589.6,"text":"徐宇峥委員你現在保的條文是你提的請先提出你寶貴意見"},{"start":18591.704,"end":18593.025,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":18615.37,"end":18619.692,"text":"罪行政院打架辦公室主任,這個NFT沒有主管機關,那是因為本席提出之後才知道這個漏洞。"},{"start":18632.637,"end":18633.917,"text":"罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行"},{"start":18659.062,"end":18663.784,"text":"犯罪危害防制條例草案 、洗錢防制條例草案 、「洗錢防制條例草案 、洗錢防制條例草案 、洗錢防制條例草案 、洗錢防制條例草案 、洗錢防制條例草案"},{"start":18685.714,"end":18701.34,"text":"詐騙集團成立的假媒體公司所發出的新聞內容一模一樣。這個詐騙模式在二零二三年也遭香港政府監管警告的JPEX詐欺案類似,都是類似採取唐氏變局的做法來吸金。當時台灣的一些區塊鏈的媒體跟網紅也都參與了JPEX的宣傳。"},{"start":18706.662,"end":18707.322,"text":"犯罪危害防制條例草案（國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":18724.427,"end":18753.044,"text":"事無忌憚地進行NFT的詐騙。」因為目前的法律還沒有跟得上這個技術發展的腳步所以我在這次在行政院提出的這個詐防條例的時候在我的要求之下已經首次指定了金管會作為管理機關那這個部分就是現在目前是指定這個金管會但主要內容是為了防範洗錢那當然這個本身我們是值得肯定"},{"start":18753.584,"end":18754.324,"text":"罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪"},{"start":18774.83,"end":18775.61,"text":"刑罪危害防制條例草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":18798.939,"end":18813.746,"text":"到底金融投資跟支付性質到底哪一個是這個明確的定義那監管會是認為說可以用個案來管理可是因為如果用個案來管理的話其實因為我覺得法律的那個定義太模糊而且很太多的法律的不確定性"},{"start":18814.506,"end":18840.054,"text":"所以在這邊我是希望說既然金管會現在作為這個主管機關那也希望說可以強調一下說什麼叫做金融投資什麼叫做支付性質比如說我舉個例子來說好了我們現在投資這個維納麗莎的假設說我買了一個蒙娜麗莎的微笑的一個NFT那它現在可能只是十個泰達幣也許我預期它後來會漲成五十個泰達幣"},{"start":18840.854,"end":18841.495,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案。」"},{"start":18857.396,"end":18858.937,"text":"條例草案、刑事變局條例草案、刑事變局條例草案、刑事變局條例草案、刑事變局條例"},{"start":18879.944,"end":18881.345,"text":"罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯"},{"start":18902.542,"end":18930.112,"text":"請經管會彭主委就徐正委員所提的請您做一個答覆,謝謝。好,院長、各位委員,在座的各位先進,大家好。這邊剛好徐委員有提到就是說,確實我們在審查的時候呢,針對原來的條文並沒有特別羅列NFT,那經過我們在協調的時候呢,我們是有發現說確實NFT它有獨特的數據資料,它的憑證跟認證不能互換,可能有被不法分子作為詐騙的標的,"},{"start":18932.113,"end":18960.32,"text":"關於這點的分工,行政院已於在113年6月12日會同速發部開會,認為本會依國際洗錢組織 的指引,納管了具金融投資或支付性質的NFT,並擔任主管機關。剛剛徐政委員已經做過說明,行政院我們在做過協調,就根據國際組織 的指引,就是對金融投資或支付性質的NFT進行納管。"},{"start":18962.326,"end":18978.024,"text":"在本次的那個我們的協調內容裡面希望就把NFT明定在我們的立法說明裡面所以我們在立法說明裡面已經修正了把這個名詞呢把它明白的寫進去增列就是鑒於擁有獨特數據資料且其憑證"},{"start":18981.227,"end":18999.187,"text":"及認證不能互換之非同質化代幣NFT﹐亦有可能進行不法交易之用途﹐依國際防制洗錢金融行動工作組織﹐就我剛才報告的FATF﹐發布的原則﹐其運用於金融投資或支付用途時﹐亦屬於前階虛擬資產的範疇﹐"},{"start":19001.67,"end":19003.131,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":19029.494,"end":19044.412,"text":"根據他們的這個方式、定義是我們就來納管,而且這也明確,我們在書法部這邊應該都沒有問題。所以我們想說,如果在這樣的一個架構之下,就需要有人關心那個問題,我們就完全遵照國際組織的規範來進行NFT的定義跟納管。"},{"start":19047.515,"end":19075.78,"text":"那我想這個部分應該就可以有效的做到這一點也明確的在法條上面加以說明我們希望如果這樣的話我們可以支持原來院版的提案以上謝謝彭主委的說明謝謝接下來徐政委你有說明可以嗎第二條的那個立法說明裡面"},{"start":19078.332,"end":19104.673,"text":"在那個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例的那個第二條的那個立法說明裏面補充說明。對。對。它就主要是保留的條文是剛才提到的那幾條。其實它最重要是在於說那個裏面因為如果這邊定義清楚後面的條文就全部都已經可以。那是不是那個立法說明可以發給大家看一下嗎?這個我們現在就發下去。對。"},{"start":19112.6,"end":19114.803,"text":"刑事刑事刑事刑事"},{"start":19120.815,"end":19123.817,"text":"立法院黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":19145.48,"end":19148.261,"text":"事由．立法院黨團提議．事由．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":19173.946,"end":19186.751,"text":"還有新增一個附帶決議,建於科技發展日新月異,非同質化代幣,NFT亦有遭受不法分子利用作為詐騙標的之可能。"},{"start":19190.232,"end":19211.986,"text":"為有效保障我國民眾權益,原要求金融監督管理委員會研修國際監理發展方向,釐清NFT用途屬性及國內詐騙樣態,並提出具體因應措施,於六個月內向立法院內政委員會提出書面報告。以上。來,薛委員請,有什麼意見?請。好。"},{"start":19213.79,"end":19225.032,"text":"那針對這個部分就是希望就是金管會能夠這個在立法說明之後還有這個負債決議之後能夠在六個月之內提出相關的一個報告。我只有一個問題喔,就是"},{"start":19244.58,"end":19271.528,"text":"黃國昌總召請發言,那請大家保持促進。我只是在等主委嘛,沒有關係。因為我看主委手忙腳亂的。我先給你一點時間。加在立法理由裡面說明,主要是針對NFT要納款這件事情,我們是支持的。因為它現實上面,那不是有可能。"},{"start":19273.001,"end":19292.957,"text":"成為詐騙的工具．現實上已經成為詐騙的工具了。只不過說因為我們現在第三款的部分提供虛擬資產服務的事業或人員你們主要是在這邊加上立法理由上面的定義嗎?"},{"start":19294.659,"end":19306.214,"text":"我只有一個問題是說,如果在這個專法裡面,針對因為他專法裡面在做定義的時候,他又把他refer到洗房法第五條第四塊"},{"start":19307.732,"end":19324.585,"text":"所以在洗房法第五條第四款的部分就立法理由的說明是不是要隨同一併把它增加上去因為你是從這個專法指向洗房法的定義所以可能在洗房法那個部分要配同"},{"start":19379.43,"end":19403.877,"text":"各位黨團幹部、各位委員同仁、各位觀眾我們先聽一下我們協商的結果請大家請聽一下我們照行政院提案通過那第五十七條二,照協商條文通過第二十條、第四十四條、第四十九條如附件那第二大項保留條文第八條、第十一條、第十二條、第十三條我們一樣照行政院會版本通過"},{"start":19405.835,"end":19411.782,"text":"三、通過附帶決議兩項增加一項,變三項（第四、"},{"start":19412.924,"end":19434.304,"text":"其餘所有均照審查會審查結果通過,但第二十四、二十五、四十四有三個修正動議,我們回頭再來處理一下。其餘就照審查意見通過了。第五點,條文、條字、引述條文之文字及相關法字用語,我們就授權我們議事處人員來整理。這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":19437.807,"end":19440.489,"text":"檢察及保障法草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":19468.031,"end":19482.017,"text":"現在民主進步黨現在提出二十四條的修正案。我們請民主進步黨提案的黨團請發言。委員長、各位委員、同仁。有關詐欺違反防制法提出二十四條。"},{"start":19483.997,"end":19500.299,"text":"還有二十五條兩個修正案．這個修正案的意思就是說有關在行政院版在委會審查的時候有稍微被調整過但是我們認為這個罰則的部分還是回到行政院版這個是當初二十四條"},{"start":19502.727,"end":19527.145,"text":"二十萬到兩百萬被改為二十萬到五百萬,這是我們民進黨的毫米會委員所記的,我們就念目勾通還是回到行政版本。那有關一千萬要改為兩千萬,這個我們還是建議回到行政版。但是有關於二十四條最後一項,那應該其中會有委員提來還是誰,我不知道誰提來。"},{"start":19529.003,"end":19555.734,"text":"必要時得通知評估主管機關的禁止及評估的合併評理。」這個非常嚴重。這個等一下請NC收明一下。因為NC有一些不同意見。那二十五條的部分也是華哲的部分,希望回到行政院版。但是二十五條的有一個民資那個部分,我希望也是回到行政院版。"},{"start":19556.601,"end":19570.69,"text":"但是二十五條還是最後有關於核兵力的禁止,這部分是有點失衡,很嚴重。希望這部分能夠不要列入,不要加入。"},{"start":19572.858,"end":19599.53,"text":"謝謝柯建民總召的發言。接下來哪一位委員同仁要針對二十四條、二十五條修正表達意見?好,請林思明。謝謝院長、各位委員、各位機關的代表。我想這個我們審查會通過的條文就是這個大家委員會大家一致的意見。我們現在這個民黨柯總召現在又說要回到行政院的條文的版本。"},{"start":19600.35,"end":19616.202,"text":"刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪"},{"start":19626.198,"end":19651.691,"text":"及徐毅臣委員他的版本必要時得通知評慮主管機關禁止其合併評慮。」我想這個都是非常好的一個立法。所以這個到底有何自愛難行之處?請我們相關機關做出說明,謝謝。謝謝林思明委員的補充。還有接下來哪位委員要發言?沒有的話我們請行政機關,我們劉部長跟法長,N11主委請先發言。"},{"start":19654.259,"end":19672.472,"text":"主席、各位委員、NC代表報告首先是在二十四條的部分上一次的話是因為我記得有委員是覺得說這個好像法環好像太輕了所以希望能夠就它的上限部分予以加重上一次我也有提出報告就是說因為這裡面只有這些事業"},{"start":19674.213,"end":19677.274,"text":"法第四十九條條文修正草案．一、考試院人事同意權案相關事宜．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":19701.118,"end":19702.439,"text":"條例草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．事由．立法院黨團提議．"},{"start":19725.009,"end":19726.891,"text":"條文修正草案．第四十九條條文修正草案．第七條條文修正草案．第八條條文修正草案．"},{"start":19741.458,"end":19755.842,"text":"禁止核廢屏蔽或不使用屏蔽的話﹐可能它整個電信網路會當掉﹐那個結果其實很嚴重的﹐所以上次我有收到報告﹐同樣的在打造條例打造過程很重要﹐但是對於國民的通信權益﹐其實這兩者之間要去做權衡﹐"},{"start":19758.303,"end":19761.825,"text":"草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":19784.258,"end":19786.339,"text":"法第四十九條條文修正草案．立法院黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":19801.787,"end":19816.815,"text":"未來就是說對於這個規定只限於故意才能夠處罰。那這個條文在講的其實是說對於那個已經有把手機移送給別人使用了"},{"start":19817.515,"end":19819.236,"text":"法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法"},{"start":19841.303,"end":19845.647,"text":"刑罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪"},{"start":19862.501,"end":19864.662,"text":"刑證法 刑證法 刑證法 刑證法 刑證法"},{"start":19892.045,"end":19911.921,"text":"徐珍文,請繼續。針對剛剛NCC這邊提到的,我覺得好像很像在幫業者說話,而不是站在被詐騙的人的立場。因為為什麼會提到說要限制他的評估,就是因為現在詐騙這麼猖獗,那其實這個我想電信單位可能要負很大的一個責任。"},{"start":19912.882,"end":19913.783,"text":"草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．事由"},{"start":19938.449,"end":19957.282,"text":"還是要請主任再說明一下我剛剛大概理解你剛剛對於法則還有對於這個禁止對於這個合配頻率的部分的禁止是都是希望回到電管法的規範而且盡可能一致所以它就會比較均衡然後回到它和平的比例原則簡單來講"},{"start":19959.127,"end":19959.888,"text":"條例草案（事由．立法院黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":19978.823,"end":19980.004,"text":"犯罪危害防制條例草案．事由．立法院團提議．一、研商有關"},{"start":20004.854,"end":20010.951,"text":"當然民進黨是同意你的說法,但是你可能在這個部分還要再進一步的說服委員們。"},{"start":20012.415,"end":20013.696,"text":"刑罪危害防制條例草案．事由．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":20041.633,"end":20054.802,"text":"罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪"},{"start":20069.571,"end":20070.632,"text":"刑罪危害防制條例草案．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":20080.68,"end":20103.502,"text":"我們現在請鍾嘉斌委員請發言我向追問竹密因為我們先看這個條文它在前一項它是訂了二千萬以下的划環這是一個行政處分那剛剛陳儒剛剛竹密所說因為這所謂的頻率主管機關禁止其合配之頻率剛剛說到行動業者他所使用的頻率是他透過飆售方式取得的"},{"start":20104.002,"end":20105.203,"text":"犯罪危害防制條例草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．"},{"start":20129.935,"end":20137.066,"text":"事不在於行政處分之下的範疇可以做的。」第二個,那麼所謂的禁止其合佩之頻率,因為它目前是"},{"start":20138.106,"end":20160.112,"text":"行業者疏於管理,讓人使用詐騙。因為這樣的情況之下,我們給他處分的,是讓他禁止其使用。整個這個業者禁止他使用他所標示到的評普的內容之後,他整個所有的服務的上班用客戶都會當機,就不能使用了。那這個作為你剛剛說的是,手段跟目的上是否橫貧?"},{"start":20161.132,"end":20175.72,"text":"罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪"},{"start":20189.721,"end":20193.342,"text":"行政院的版本﹖一百萬到一千萬可以連續處罰﹖我想大概還沒有企業會因為配合詐團而願意被連續處罰一千萬的﹖"},{"start":20213.968,"end":20233.249,"text":"犯罪危害防制條例草案．事上已經是授予主管機關．授予行政機關一個很大的權限．能夠罰到一千萬．而且我可以連續的處罰．大概還沒有哪一項的詐欺能有這麼高的收益．還要再加上一個．如果說假設真的我要去"},{"start":20234.19,"end":20250.654,"text":"罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪"},{"start":20263.057,"end":20273.267,"text":"受監察有關這麼大的一個權限來禁止它回歸平地﹖我想大概在就龍龍中委員所說的﹖在手段目的之間﹖我們真的要取得一個平衡了﹖那個有一千萬可以連續處罰,這樣應該是夠了﹖"},{"start":20281.416,"end":20283.918,"text":"議員長,我想我們還是會堅持這個維持原就是我們現在這個審查會通過的條文"},{"start":20296.326,"end":20298.728,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":20319.487,"end":20321.428,"text":"罪行及保障條例草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":20345.853,"end":20370.471,"text":"除了該獎可以連續罰以外,但是我們在必要時用最嚴厲的手段,如果你一直在犯,講不會聽,那我就禁止你這個評例去使用。」我想這跟他什麼飆不飆到沒有關係,這就是我們政府打詐的一個決心。所以我是認為說,而且是必要時,你一直罰不聽的時候是最後的手段,一定要有這個最後的手段,否則他就是講,罰錢他不怕。"},{"start":20371.992,"end":20373.835,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":20385.044,"end":20405.661,"text":"謝謝林思明委員發言,接下來我們請柯建民總召請發言好,我們要看一下齁,他這個手,一個是假所規範,比如說KYC啦,比如說漫遊啦,那些都是這些東西啦,並不是,假如是要把指揮者打造指令推給這個電信公司的話,那我們接下來科技正常法也不必了"},{"start":20406.381,"end":20411.264,"text":"最後的手段：立法院黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":20433.596,"end":20459.828,"text":"政府要做的事情還很多,哪有這種簡單的一個把它推過,它是經過飆售的,所以這個要有很平原則,你發一千萬已經很重了,一千萬只是客戶,所有來申請的客戶就KYC,因為做好KYC,還有他就漫遊,他出國以後你會不會把他停下來。有一些東西是因為有國際電信規範,我們不一定想怎麼做就怎麼做了。"},{"start":20460.309,"end":20462.396,"text":"所以了解這個是一個很複雜的一個東西 我說很簡單"},{"start":20467.039,"end":20473.843,"text":"這不是這樣搞的,人家這個特許行業還去飆上千億飆來的,那整個AI網路世界,你這個東西什麼叫必要值?我跟你講,假如說這樣的話,我們以下打到四我都不去談了。"},{"start":20491.067,"end":20492.589,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．四、研商有關"},{"start":20512.691,"end":20532.676,"text":"包括今天包括坦白講,我想各部會都來了,國務會也來了,政委會也來了,新市長席也來了,年政部都來了,它是整個國家都要去處理的東西,就他們簡化他們講的那樣發動,反正出台時都把電視關開就好了,沒有這麼簡單的一回事,你就是這樣,我是覺得這要有一種和平原則。"},{"start":20542.796,"end":20558.161,"text":"我看這個法條的文字我必須要老實講就是說二國一本身我有點困惑因為他通知他禁止其核被頻率到底是指的是向未來"},{"start":20559.523,"end":20587.293,"text":"還是包括過去,你如果說今天是已經拿到頻率的廢紙或者是撤銷,那真的很嚴重,我也反對,因為這個就沒道理,人家已經拿到了東西,你要怎麼把它給弄掉,但如果他只是作為一個未來的,那就不牽涉到已經拿到頻率既有使用者權益保護的問題,"},{"start":20590.569,"end":20615.424,"text":"從這個法條的文字上面我老實講我有點看不太出來它禁止的是既有的還是未來的如果禁止的是既有的那的確會造成很多人因此而受影響但如果不是禁止既有的既有的我們也要撤銷我也沒有要廢止但我只是要影響它未來的"},{"start":20616.169,"end":20617.189,"text":"條例草案及保障法草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":20644.191,"end":20646.492,"text":"法定人數不足、法定人數不足、法定人數不足"},{"start":20665.217,"end":20679.807,"text":"注冊服務可以運作．影響到業者就包含全部的客戶．現在A公司、B公司、C公司取得這些頻率合配．它是向主管機關去取得．而且是透過標誤的權利．如果按照剛剛黃總統的說法．請安心說明一下"},{"start":20680.447,"end":20680.687,"text":"合併、頻率合併（"},{"start":20698.01,"end":20700.572,"text":"刑罪危害防制條例草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．"},{"start":20715.044,"end":20735.528,"text":"現在是要來參與,現在只有身家而已,你換什麼法以後,換什麼罪行或是換了什麼規則以後都不能來標籤,現在有沒有這個東西?同時要請提案委員說明一下,因為我們要搞定提案委員是,你認為這個可行嗎?這部分我們本來就指說未來標收的部分"},{"start":20743.527,"end":20769.923,"text":"那NCC黃主委你辛苦了,你再解釋一下吧。黃主委面臨。過去的話確實是沒有把違規紀錄當作失格,當作來參與投票資格的這樣一個限制。我覺得這也是一個立法上的選擇。但是說實在話以後頻率只會越用越多。而且電信事業其實是一個資本密集的一個事業。那個真正有能力去標這麼貴的頻率的其實也不是很多。"},{"start":20770.743,"end":20796.492,"text":"那我自己是覺得說我們打造還是那句話我們打造雖然很重要但是以限制一個失業的發展當作手段我覺得其實長遠來看的話還是有一個手段目的不平衡的問題當然我覺得這是一個立法上的選擇因為這不是立法選擇的問題而已你一罪要兩罰嗎?他換手罰你就罰他什麼錢?"},{"start":20797.642,"end":20799.403,"text":"刑罪危害防制條例草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":20825.14,"end":20854.038,"text":"所以我認為我們今天所在目的要弄一個平衡有這樣的寫法的法律好像政府什麼事情就是推給業主而已業主不應該承擔的東西哪來承擔這樣的話也沒有辦法解決問題的每一個法也不應該是一罪兩法而且第二法是一個完全的手段這個要小心一點我認為大家是要斟酌一下"},{"start":20856.995,"end":20882.47,"text":"對,好,謝謝柯建民總召的發言。那我想等一下大家私底下溝通一下,我們今天掌握時間,因為我們等一下還有很重要的打詐釋法要討論。我們要準備要做一個結論。我喊休息三分鐘之後,我們私底下來溝通一下,好嗎?四十四條等一下,先把二十四、二十五先要搞定,好不好?我們先把確認,要不然我們就送院會了,我等一下要做決定了。好,最後我們休息三分鐘。"},{"start":21648.073,"end":21673.456,"text":"有關的你剛才,因為還有一條嘛,就黃國昌委員所提的,是不是?有跟法務部談好了嗎?四十條談好的話就可以了。你們大家看一下。黃國昌委員先看一下。國民黨也要看一下。就是抓首腦嘛。"},{"start":21675.104,"end":21678.085,"text":"第三項修正的文字給黃總召看一下"},{"start":21693.956,"end":21703.246,"text":"我們現在是在...啊?在洗錢了嗎?在洗錢了嗎?沒有啦,結婚了,我們剛剛蓋這份。那這樣就怎樣?就是你幫忙加幾個字就好,可行性。這是第三個。"},{"start":21717.312,"end":21722.016,"text":"對、等、知可行性、等、知可行性、等、知可行性．對．對．對．對．對．對．對．對．"},{"start":21781.786,"end":21794.08,"text":"再一溝通一下好不好好,謝謝各位黨團幹部、各位委員同仁、各位行政官員24條、25條沒辦法達成公示,我們保留送院會處理現在再溝通了,這個很嚴重了,現在再談一下這四條,我們是沒問題啊不是不是,在這個"},{"start":21807.107,"end":21809.59,"text":"刑事條例文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":21825.06,"end":21840.628,"text":"本黨委員剛才都在場（但是彙整大家的意見當然柯總召有強烈的表達但是我們認為說連續罰是沒有錯王美惠委員提高把一千萬的罰則變成兩千萬那個我們尊重就是說到底"},{"start":21851.195,"end":21872.211,"text":"到底要不要禁止其合配頻率這個問題啊?我們覺得這個還是要一個約束的方法。當然柯總召覺得說他這個投資是很大的。那這個第二類的出問題到底我們這個頻率要怎麼處理?我們可以參照柯總召的意思,但是我們還是要修正一下。"},{"start":21873.407,"end":21875.847,"text":"草案及保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":21900.253,"end":21927.643,"text":"這問題很嚴重啦,問題我也了解嘛。我們現在二、電信連電信管理員二、電信都沒有在管。整個的,它裡面包括KYC,包括這個漫遊的資料等等,都是一個小問題。但是呢,它有嚴重的時候,已經從一千還到兩千,你要再繼續調照的話,整個的,現在在外景產不是到最後,我們沒有電信公司就沒有照片,全部把它調照就好了。這不是這樣搞法嘛。"},{"start":21928.443,"end":21949.23,"text":"這我們為了經常有打他的司法,所有的法全部要下去,所有的公益都要下去了,包括洗錢防制。所以我們要看整個脫落我們環境面是怎麼改變,不是只有亂施用重點,反正到最後三家電工生兩家在嗨得了,現在AI世界到網路你把它停起來,你三家都把它停掉,就沒有照片出來。"},{"start":21952.112,"end":21974.422,"text":"這不是這個邏輯（已經加上華澤的、二人西華（華的以外還要調造的（這種案例（這能再投資上的幾數千億（因為我不是在對任何人講話（只是環境面也是如此（所以大家再想一想好不好我稍微補充完之後就（你要補充的（我補充柯總召的"},{"start":21976.403,"end":21980.666,"text":"我沒有跟他的意識...因為我們意識跟他並沒有相左啦但是這個東西我們還是要...還是要謹慎的來...謹慎的部分來處理啦接下來請沈博洋委員發言 莊銳雄委員請準備我很快30秒齁 就是說因為罰款是一個方式齁"},{"start":21999.94,"end":22000.06,"text":"刑職刑職刑職"},{"start":22027.113,"end":22053.241,"text":"我請各位再思考一下我臨時去想到像我們比如說社會法你說犯罪的場所叫你一再的處罰處罰不聽到最後才叫你停止營業但是你去把它看說我們這二十條裡面所講到的就是說前面社會法那是因為那個場所有風險可是你現在這個頻率並不是犯罪所生的要件"},{"start":22054.341,"end":22056.102,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":22074.375,"end":22075.936,"text":"刑罪危害防制條例草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．三、研商有關"},{"start":22104.455,"end":22115.123,"text":"信業者說我勒令你停止這個整個頻率的一個規範,所以我請國民黨的朋友再考慮一下,再考慮一下,因為你這樣子就變成說我"},{"start":22116.374,"end":22133.82,"text":"刑政部門、警政署、檢察官、老百姓對你的期待你沒有達成,沒有達成以後我們就認為說全部都是你這個電信機關,你要負最大的一個責任,都丟給他。這也好奇怪,因為我們現在的處罰已經有加重了。"},{"start":22136.661,"end":22151.693,"text":"已經有加重了,你要把它加重到到最後是把它給停止等於類似把人家廢止這個是我認為太罪責不相符了啦已經不相符了請大家在各黨團再考慮一下"},{"start":22167.253,"end":22190.139,"text":"就是說這條案是直接可以交院會來處理雖然大家意見不一但是我們在院會處理的時候會提再修正動議會比較趨向柯總統講的這樣好不好好不好院長他已經開一個扇門了嘛他已經開了扇門這兩天我們大家談一談好不好不要說"},{"start":22197.808,"end":22200.57,"text":"法定人數不足之多,請勿模仿"},{"start":22222.208,"end":22225.892,"text":"法務部這個條文請問一下各位三個黨團以及各位列席的委員有沒有其他的寶貴意見。請黃國昌總召請發言。"},{"start":22239.644,"end":22261.114,"text":"謝謝院長,簡短的說明一下就是說從委員會開始的時候我們針對44條就提出這樣子的修正動議那其實最主要的理由是在於說在透過犯罪組織在犯這些罪的時候他本身的罪質跟他的死害"},{"start":22262.253,"end":22290.703,"text":"原原比三個人以上偶爾犯之要來得重。」但在我國的司法實務上,組織犯罪防制條例現在快要被架空了。因為都是一行為出犯訴罪名,到時候想像進合,通通都想像進合掉了。這樣子一點意義都沒有。那也導致了說,我們對於犯罪組織,特別是首腦的部分,沒有辦法給它足夠"},{"start":22292.273,"end":22308.031,"text":"威嚇的處罰。」常常我們看那個法院的判決看那個刑度慘不忍睹那因此我們針對有關於44條它在犯罪太陽的部分在犯罪太陽的部分"},{"start":22309.059,"end":22324.086,"text":"我們就希望能夠針對犯罪組織去犯這些罪的時候那我們能夠加重它的法定性所以我們提出了第四十四條的修正動議"},{"start":22325.467,"end":22353.782,"text":"那今天我剛剛法務部的次長他有提出法務部的對應的版本他對應的版本他主要的想法是說就發起組織操縱或指揮的部分他同意我們所提出來的這樣子的一個修法讓他到五年以上十二年以下併科新台幣三億元以下的罰金就這個部分我們是競表同意的"},{"start":22354.562,"end":22362.49,"text":"罪犯罪犯罪犯罪組織,或許有一些年輕人被認定到參與到那裏面,這樣子的話相對而言是不是對那些年輕人會太重?"},{"start":22374.082,"end":22399.838,"text":"給他一個機會。」我覺得這樣子的考慮跟妥協我們是可以接受的就是說針對44條我們所提出的再修正動議把當初為什麼要這樣子定實質上面的考慮現實上面的狀況跟院長還有跟各位黨團的代表來做說明跟報告不過剛剛法務部所提出來那兩個折衷的版本就是我們處罰重的"},{"start":22401.579,"end":22413.498,"text":"主要是針對首腦、針對老大那一些人,那就其他參與的部分我們還是回到本來的第一項的部分來加以處理,這個我們可以同意。」"},{"start":22415.309,"end":22435.391,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召的說明接下來各位請沈博洋發言我快速說一下就是說早期民進黨有提出一個版本直接就是三三九之四然後用這個集團加重我覺得法務部在之後可能可以考慮這一點是因為畢竟三人以上很寬鬆然後又會評價兩次那所以如果說能夠以後把它移到最前面"},{"start":22435.771,"end":22438.815,"text":"罪犯罪犯罪組織加重、刑罪組織加重、刑罪組織加重、刑罪組織加重、"},{"start":22455.717,"end":22477.325,"text":"那你上那個早就已經有處理除了防罪都有了那上一屆我們就處理掉了你等一下可以發言請問你現在要發言嗎?好請柯建民總召我想基本的方向我是認同我想了解有一個發起有一個組織有操縱或指揮這個到底是幾個人?是同一個人還是要怎麼認定?"},{"start":22478.685,"end":22482.389,"text":"不動行為太陽四種人也可能合一個人"},{"start":22490.899,"end":22510.303,"text":"麻煩請法務部簡單、惡要說明一下,然後我們就準備做處理了好不好?謝謝。更屬於各位報告,如同剛剛各位委員所說明的,這部分呢,我們就這個首腦的部分,它參與發起操縱指揮相關的詐欺集團的話,我們認為這部分非常可惡,所以我們同意這部分把它獨立成另外一種犯罪類型。"},{"start":22510.963,"end":22525.488,"text":"事與參與的部分,我們認為,如同剛剛我們黃委員講的,是不是有一般只是單純的參與,而且另外是不是會有擔心會有重複評價的疑慮,所以參與的部分是不是就維持原來條文部把它獨立成另外一個犯罪類型。以上說明,謝謝。"},{"start":22527.246,"end":22529.068,"text":"法務部說明．黨團幹部、列席委員．第四十四條就照法務版本通過。"},{"start":22546,"end":22563.653,"text":"我們協商的主題是並按審查行政院涵請審議臺灣民眾黨黨團及陳廷芬委員十六人分別凝聚詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案。二、何欣淳等二十一位立委凝聚詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案。"},{"start":22565.219,"end":22592.2,"text":"二、協商結論．一、協商通過．一、照行政院提案通過第八條、第十一條、第十二條、第十三條、第五十七條．二、照協商條文通過第二十條、第四十四條、第四十九條如附件．二、保留條文第二十四條、二十五條我們送院會處理．三、通過附帶決議三項如附件．"},{"start":22593.658,"end":22618.809,"text":"四、其餘軍造審查會審查結果通過,其中第二項附帶決議不予處理。五、委員提案及相關修正動議均列入紀錄刊登公報。第六、補充立法說明如附件。七、各黨團同意委員王美惠、徐宇珍、羅廷偉、蘇巧惠、蔡宇宜等委員"},{"start":22620.029,"end":22646.018,"text":"分別鎖定詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案等五案．從委員會抽出禁服二讀與相關提案並按在本次協商會議處理．八、院會處理時非保留部分宣讀後均予通過保留部分均暫時保留保留部分院會進行處理前由各黨團推派一位"},{"start":22646.658,"end":22666.217,"text":"一、臺灣民眾黨黨團．民進黨黨團．國民黨黨團順序輪流發言．每人發言時間為三分鐘．發言完畢後．該保留條文均不再發言．即進行各保留條文處理。以上協商結論,請問各黨團有沒有寶貴意見?"},{"start":22668.018,"end":22692.471,"text":"請柯建民總長請出言當然有意見啦!你這要一次要把他跳到崗幻樓要去表決嘛!剛才大家我剛剛分析的意思都講得很清楚!不像那些的最後再來簽,最後要講好就沒有這個所謂要表決!院長,這個民族操作還是這樣重大案子,既然副總長有保住三億,我們再去處理,時間還沒到嘛!"},{"start":22694.062,"end":22705.148,"text":"每一條都這樣簽一簽就是保障嗎?那沒有問題我們星期四早上十點半拜託各位黨團幹部我們準時來開會也非常感謝行政院內政部還有法務部各位我們十點半要繼續還要再出一場,必須要到必須要到星期四上午十點半我們繼續協商那謝謝各位行政官員列席我們現在散會"},{"start":22723.118,"end":22723.799,"text":"行事早上十點半"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}