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13:00:05","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.05409375,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.20971875,"end":21.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.55784375,"end":31.418468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.447843750000004,"end":37.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.45971875,"end":37.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.674718750000004,"end":43.922843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.61471875,"end":45.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.04471875,"end":51.010343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.719093750000006,"end":55.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.41034375,"end":58.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.14409375,"end":60.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.69221875,"end":64.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.45534375,"end":76.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.62659375,"end":79.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.05221875000001,"end":80.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.26721875,"end":85.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.51534375,"end":86.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.27034375000001,"end":92.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.96159375,"end":100.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.19659375,"end":105.51659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.70221875,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.74784375,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.81096875,"end":111.82784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.21971875000001,"end":118.18971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.39221875000001,"end":119.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.69159375000001,"end":122.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.45471875000001,"end":129.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.13721875000002,"end":131.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.28471875,"end":133.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.92596875,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.97659375,"end":132.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.17909375000002,"end":132.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.38971875000001,"end":135.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.97596875000002,"end":140.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.80221875,"end":146.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.09659375,"end":148.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.78409375,"end":151.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.58534375000002,"end":152.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.63159375,"end":154.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.07846875,"end":163.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.84096875,"end":167.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.85659375,"end":174.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.26096875000002,"end":175.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.54346875000002,"end":179.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.13784375,"end":180.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.42846875,"end":183.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.99784375000002,"end":186.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.93846875,"end":187.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.83221875,"end":194.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.08909375000002,"end":197.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.80159375000002,"end":199.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.10096875000002,"end":204.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.30284375000002,"end":205.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.31971875000002,"end":209.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.53409375,"end":212.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.11159375000003,"end":215.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.47846875000002,"end":218.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.38971875000001,"end":215.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.14034375000003,"end":219.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.08534375000002,"end":219.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.43534375000002,"end":221.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.65034375000002,"end":223.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.54471875000002,"end":224.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.58221875,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.30346875,"end":230.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.18909375,"end":233.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.65721875000003,"end":231.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2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民航局何局長還有我們華航高董事長那個4月13號啊有一部這個CI753的這個飛機啊好"},{"start":39.901,"end":64.116,"text":"從桃園要飛到新加坡結果在越南的外海又撤了發動機就是引擎故障結果非常奇怪的他沒有在附近的備用機場停然後再一個半小時就可以到新加坡了結果他竟然要往回走飛到小港去了這網路上已經炸開了很多人都在質疑說"},{"start":65.529,"end":86.746,"text":"那時候華航是什麼只顧著這個成本不過人民的這個死活跟生命安全嗎飛機上有181名的乘客還有所有機組員的生命安全我今天就問得很具體喔 局長我底下先問等一下董事長可以回答當天有沒有比較近的機場是可以降轉的有沒有"},{"start":88.631,"end":110.133,"text":"跟委員報告 當天因為他飛的確實是在胡志明的接近的外海的部分那當然他有幾個機場可以選擇 因為他填的備用機場目的地是新加坡嘛 那有一個馬尼拉的備降機場然後再來是胡志明香港 那他台北這邊是高雄 台北 沒有高雄"},{"start":110.934,"end":133.018,"text":"飛行是很精密的嘛備用機場一定是先選好的嘛那為了安全我相信說局長你的家人在飛機上部長現在在在場你的家人在機場一定是用最快的時間嘛安全第一嘛對不對那你是找一個最近的備用機場啊福建的兩個都是半個小時啊越南的縣港機場胡志明機場啊那為什麼沒有選擇這兩個甚至連這個"},{"start":136.021,"end":161.15,"text":"那你就飛一個半小時到也OK你往回跑耶 跑三個小時 將近三個小時耶好 跟委員報告對於這個因為他要選擇在哪裡備降當然他有一些因素考量那天候也是其中一個那根據我們初步訪談華航的駕駛員的說明跟公司的說明就是他這幾個機場裡面 縣港也是其中一個那這個 這些機場他有提到有一些氣象的問題天氣的問題"},{"start":162.751,"end":180.798,"text":"那這個天氣 你說的兩個最近的半個小時的這個氣候的這個問題來 我給你看三個 三十分鐘可以到一個叫縣港 一個叫福治明市最重要有沒有 氣候上有沒有什麼問題降雨 中間這條線那天這兩個當地的氣候一滴雨都沒有"},{"start":191.877,"end":221.004,"text":"上面溫度也沒有問題下面是風速風速非常適合飛機降落妳有調這個資料嗎我們現在正在調我們所有跟氣象TUF跟META的資料所以本來應該比較近沒有問題要降落嘛等一下你們現在推說妳現在是騙人還是沒有去查我們現在正在調查華航的說法是華航那我們也會根據我們航船的這就是當天的這就是當天縣港跟胡志明市因為我們要對不對這夠清楚了嗎"},{"start":221.704,"end":237.356,"text":"所以我希望民航局還有華航不要欺騙我們民眾要面對問題這個部分我們在調查委員所提的資料也會來跟我們我們航管這邊機場的資料我們繼續來問這個攸關人命的事情而且絕對以後不能再換這個事情當天是誰下的這個決定是機師下的決定還是華航"},{"start":249.488,"end":255.4,"text":"我們的初步訪談是還是我們初步訪談我想我們在那個"},{"start":257.541,"end":282.58,"text":"發生事情的當下他用衛星電話打回到聯管中心那聯管中心所有的單位會把他們目前所有的資訊通通都會告知那個機長最後有機長 催哨者催哨者來檢舉的是說當天是當天不是機師是想要降落的吧他為了安全一定是這樣做嘛我都要告訴你們家人自己在上面你一定是要最近的嘛他自己在飛機上這個機長又有那麼重的責任181條人命所有機組員在上面"},{"start":287.435,"end":312.916,"text":"他當然希望降落最近的啊所以這個不是機長 不是機師的這個決定嘛這是華航 華航或CC做的決定是不是不是那向哲瑋機長 這一定是機長做的決定因為我們的規定 大家從當機長的第一天開始他就知道所有的決定這個很不符合人性齁 機長那時候做這個決定這個生命安全 沒關係我跟你講這個是可以查證的 來來來那個機長 部長也在現場齁我要問"},{"start":317.728,"end":332.738,"text":"那時候你們有沒有指示這個基礎委員要折返台灣你們那個那時候的那個通訊這個有辦法查驗嗎跟委員報告一定有通訊嘛對不對這個部分其實是他們有一些討論有些討論對有些討論就是"},{"start":336.681,"end":347.415,"text":"給建 應該是這樣講機長依據第三條他可以做所有的處理嘛那過程中是有一些討論 航管單位有給建議聯管單位 我們相關資料都會調查我們調查完會來公開到底是機長做的"},{"start":353.963,"end":371.986,"text":"是機師本身做的這個決定還是OCC做的這個決定 聯管中心的這個要對全民的要有個交代 好不好另外一個很嚴重的其實啦 飛安是非常嚴肅的而且規定非常嚴格的你美國的FAA美國聯邦航空條例裡面 讓我們看一下如果雙引擎的這個飛機發生有一個引擎壞掉了它是明定 你要選擇最近的嘛"},{"start":381.676,"end":399.956,"text":"所以你就違反這個規定啊下面這個更明確了你不能夠憑這些因素就沒有在最近的機場降落 三大理由這次華航全部都違背了三個都違背了 第一個你們現在的講法是說 我的燃油的油量是夠的啊"},{"start":401.817,"end":430.605,"text":"他說你要從最近的先降落他不能夠因為說你的燃油的量是過的你就要往更遠的地方更遠的地方飛第二個除了乘客安全以外的所有的安排就是乘客安全是最優先啦因為最急迫嘛對不對第三個你不能夠為了修復或者是修復你現在可能說回到台灣可能修復成本比較比較低欸修復成本華航的成本比那個人命還還重要嗎哪一個排在前面"},{"start":431.972,"end":440.362,"text":"所以就違反了這三個規定所以今天我們做第一個請一個禮拜大概調查要多久會出來"},{"start":443.093,"end":469.562,"text":"剛剛有提到就是我們會因為整個完整的報告因為它還有發動機的故障問題所以航務的部分我們會有一個初步報告我們一個月會提出來一個月喔能不能再快一點點這兩個很重要第一個當然是要追查清楚真相第二更重要這種事情絕對不能再發生嘛甚至你以後就是一定要貫徹要貫徹跟美國這個FAA這個標準要是一致的好不好能不能再快一點點你什麼時候再給我"},{"start":471.942,"end":488.167,"text":"給所有的交通委員會給我們一個月因為剛剛有講到的很多資料我們都要去處理我們也不是只看華航的資料那所以說是不是給我們一個月初步一個月內要公開透明然後絕對不要犯同樣的錯誤好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1063,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時52分）請民航局的何局長跟華航的高董事長。"],["主席：民航局何局長和華航高董事長。"],["張委員啓楷：4月13日有一架CI-753的飛機要從桃園飛往新加坡，在越南外海右側引擎故障，結果非常奇怪，它沒有停在附近的備用機場，它再1個半小時就可以到新加坡了，結果它竟然往回飛，飛到小港機場去了。這個在網路上已經炸開了，很多人都在質疑華航只顧成本，不顧人民的死活跟生命安全嗎？飛機上有181名的乘客和所有機組人員的生命安全。我今天要很具體的問，局長，我在這裡先問，等一下董事長也可以回答。當天有沒有比較近的機場是可以降轉的？有沒有？"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，當天它確實是飛在接近胡志明市的外海，當然，它有幾個機場可以選擇，因為它填的備用機場目的地是新加坡，馬尼拉也有一個備降機場，再來是胡志明市、香港，還有臺北，沒有高雄。"],["張委員啓楷：飛行是很精密的，備用機場一定是先選好的。為了安全，我相信如果局長有家人在飛機上，部長現在也在場，你的家人在飛機上一定是用最快的時間，安全第一嘛！對不對？你一定是找一個最近的備用機場啊！附近有2個機場都是半個小時就到了，就是越南的峴港機場和胡志明市機場，為什麼沒有選擇這兩個？那你就飛1個半小時到也OK，但是你是往回飛，飛了將近3個小時。"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，對於它要選擇在哪裡備降，當然它有一些因素考量，天候也是其中一個，根據我們初步訪談華航駕駛員跟公司的說明，峴港也是其中一個，他有提到，這些機場有氣象的問題、天氣的問題，這個天氣資料……"],["張委員啓楷：你說的這兩個最近的、半個小時就會到的機場，它的氣候問題，來，我給你看，30分鐘就可以到的機場有一個是峴港機場、一個是胡志明市機場，最重要的是氣候上有沒有什麼問題？降雨，就是中間這條線，那天這兩個地方當地的氣候，一滴雨都沒有。上面溫度也沒有問題；下面是風速，風速也非常適合飛機降落，你有調這個資料嗎？"],["何局長淑萍：我們現在正在調所有跟氣象TAF跟METAR有關的資料，我們會調出來核對。"],["張委員啓楷：所以本來應該降落在比較近的機場是沒有問題的。第二個，你們現在是在騙人還是沒有去查？"],["何局長淑萍：我們現在正在調查，華航的說法是華航的說法，我們也會根據我們航管的……"],["張委員啓楷：局長，這是當天峴港和胡志明市的天氣資料，對不對？這夠清楚了嗎？所以我希望民航局和華航不要欺騙民眾，要面對問題。"],["何局長淑萍：這個部分我們正在調查，委員所提的資料我們也會跟航管和機場的資料一起來調查。"],["張委員啓楷：好，來，我們繼續來問，這是攸關人民的事情，而且以後絕對不能再犯這樣的事情。當天是誰下這個決定的？是機師下這個決定還是華航？"],["何局長淑萍：我們初步的訪談是……"],["張委員啓楷：高董事長。"],["何局長淑萍：好，請董事長來說。"],["高董事長星潢：我們在發生事情的當下，有用衛星電話打電話回聯合管制中心，聯管中心所有的單位會把他們目前所有的資訊通通都告知那個機長，最後……"],["張委員啓楷：吹哨者來檢舉的是說，當天機師是想要降落，因為他為了安全一定要這樣做。我剛才已經講了，如果是你們的家人在上面，你一定是要最近的，他自己都在飛機上了，這個機長又有這麼重的責任，181條人命，所有的機組人員都在上面，他當然是希望在最近的機場降落啊！所以這個不是機師的決定嘛！這是華航OCC所做的決定是不是？"],["高董事長星潢：不是。"],["張委員啓楷：那是誰做的決定？"],["高董事長星潢：機長，這一定是機長做的決定，因為我們規定，從擔任機長的第一天開始，他就知道所有的決定……"],["張委員啓楷：那時候要機長做這個決定很不符合人性，這個攸關生命安全。沒關係，我跟你說，這是可以查證的。","來，局長，部長也在現場，我要問，那時候你們有沒有指示機組員要折返臺灣？那個時候的通訊有辦法查驗嗎？"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：一定有通訊嘛！對不對？"],["何局長淑萍：其實這個部分他們有一些討論。"],["張委員啓楷：有一些討論？"],["何局長淑萍：對，有一些討論。"],["高董事長星潢：他們有給建議。"],["何局長淑萍：應該是這樣講，機長可以依據第三條來做所有的處理，過程中是有一些討論，航管單位、聯管單位也有給建議，相關的資料我們都會調查。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，這部分的資料是可以公開的嗎？"],["何局長淑萍：我們調查完後就會公開。"],["張委員啓楷：調查完後就會對外公開，到底是機師本身做了這個決定？還是OCC做的決定？還是聯管中心？這對全民要有一個交代，好不好？","另外還有一個很嚴重的，其實飛安是非常嚴肅的，而且規定得非常嚴格。我們來看一下美國FAA的聯邦航空條例裡面規定，如果是雙引擎的飛機發生單發引擎失效，它是明定要選擇「最近的」，所以你是違反這個規定。下面這部分就更明確了，你不能夠憑這些因素就不在最近的機場降落，這有三大理由，這次華航全部都違背了。第一個，你們現在的講法是燃油是足夠的，但是它說要先降落在最近的機場，不能因為你的燃油是足夠的，就要往更遠的地方飛。第二個，除了乘客安全以外的所有安排，因為乘客的安全是最優先的，這個最急迫嘛！對不對？第三個，你不能夠為了修復，雖然回來臺灣修復的成本可能比較低，但是華航的修復成本有比人命更重要嘛！哪個排在前面？你們違反了這三個規定，所以今天，第一個，這個調查大概多久會出來？"],["何局長淑萍：剛剛有提到，因為整個完整的報告還有發動機故障的問題，所以航務的部分我們會有一個初步的報告，我們1個月內會提出來。"],["張委員啓楷：1個月？"],["何局長淑萍：1個月。"],["張委員啓楷：能不能夠再快一點點？這件事情不能再拖了，有兩點很重要，第一個當然就是要追查清楚真相；第二個更重要，因為這種事情絕對不能再發生。"],["何局長淑萍：是。"],["張委員啓楷：甚至你以後一定要貫徹，我們跟美國FAA的標準要是一致的，好不好？你們能不能夠再快一點點？什麼時候可以給我？"],["何局長淑萍：我們儘快好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：不是給我啦！是給交通委員會所有的委員。"],["何局長淑萍：給我們1個月，因為剛剛有講到很多資料我們都要去處理，我們也不是只看華航的資料，所以是不是給我們1個月的時間？"],["張委員啓楷：好，1個月內，必須要公開透明，絕對不要犯同樣的錯誤，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝張啓楷委員。","接下來請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}