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運量有起來其實縣政府就不用補貼如果運量有超過七成那是最好的大家都不用補貼可以讓華信可以繼續飛下去那如果超過七成或許委員剛剛所提到的兩班我們就有機會我們把運量先養起來我們非花蓮非台東你有要台東縣政府花蓮縣政府也七折嗎"},{"start":246.994,"end":274.288,"text":"這個來保七這個沒道理啦是不是報告委員當時是縣府自己提出來的對啊是我們自己提出來啊為了促其實現嘛所以我們很無奈陳金派市長講的這是社會責任啊我們把它做起來之後華信來努力然後我們也請一些旅行業者大家一起共同來努力把這個醞釀把它做起來行的便利交通的安全交通部你們責無旁貸了嘛"},{"start":275.151,"end":298.872,"text":"要縣政府去補貼你們很丟人耶七八千億的預算在那邊要縣政府去補貼這個小小的幾百萬這個說不過去了好不好我們一起加油一下好不好等飛機飛了以後再說高董你請回謝謝啦你休息一下嘛第二個就是馬祖大橋啊我在總諮詢的時候以前288億"},{"start":301.083,"end":324.152,"text":"從一百多億幾十億到兩百八十八億這是4C精算出來的咧4C精算出來的東西卓院長突然跟我提到說要三百八十幾億我嚇一跳我想部長也嚇一跳齁那麼英國的顧問公司他的數據是依據4C4C工程顧問公司來的那我說部長"},{"start":325.458,"end":351.592,"text":"能不能再找世襲啊再精算一次好不好你看國內的一些重大公共工程高鐵、桃園從高價改為地下化六百多億啊這個錢都給了當然目前國內的環境整個世界的環境是比較困難啦我們在財政上比較困難我也不急於意思說"},{"start":352.813,"end":376.931,"text":"我們今天來討論這個問題但是我們機場的改建機場的改建跟馬祖大橋我想是馬祖最重要的基礎建設而且影響深遠另外何局長下去再請你上來一下可以再上來沒問題北竿機場空難兩次"},{"start":382.128,"end":409.054,"text":"我弟弟全家無口利難我到現在還是非常的悲痛常常想念到我弟弟馬祖連一個標準的山西機場都沒有這還得了啊這個機場馬祖不是只是我們馬祖陪肝的攔肝的是我們全體國人的而且馬祖的情幣我們的巨肉寶蟲我們的藍眼淚已經是世界的景觀了"},{"start":410.208,"end":424.219,"text":"是不是各國的人,外國人也都來馬祖萊所以這個機場的興建勢在必行當然我也很感謝行政院已經合訂了第一期是兩百二十幾億還有第二期的航廈工程等等"},{"start":425.764,"end":454.634,"text":"我也希望他的開工能夠順利當然這裡面分兩階段今天港務公司沒有來我想何局長我們馬祖民眾還有一些聲音也是配套配套最大的聲音當然是來自航空站還有利隆航空他們怕為什麼錢多勢少離家近他們怕說這個機場一旦施工那麼這些人要移到南竿去"},{"start":456.035,"end":457.839,"text":"何記長你回答我一下,這些人應該都不會動吧"},{"start":461.015,"end":484.961,"text":"跟委員報告因為剛剛有提到分兩階段所以現在在做第一階段的細設那這個部分是港公司在做那在這個過程中我們也會看工程細設的狀況然後相關航空站其實在施工期間細設是不會動因為基本上都還要維持一年那施工期間的話那他可能會有做局部的調整那航空站還是要有人在那邊運作"},{"start":488.343,"end":513.565,"text":"消防人員都也在嘛基本上還是要配置那因為施工期間有施工車輛等等的相關人員也要飲食等等所以這部分航空站的人員跟相關利用或者是相關的商店等等我們會來再做一些協調跟溝通說明我想希望能夠學澳門機場新建的模式修建的模式邊飛邊做當然你在"},{"start":514.574,"end":535.598,"text":"危題的部分,沉箱的部分,不影響飛機安全的情況之下,你怎麼樣去把它區隔出來這個我想在十四、十五我們到馬祖去交通委員會考察的時候,我也希望召委能夠親自出席"},{"start":536.994,"end":555.339,"text":"那麼在考察的時候,順便跟我們鄉親提出來,如果夜間施工或是那邊施工的品質影響到我們地區居民的生活品質,或是有一些噪音等等影響到的,還有觀光。"},{"start":557.813,"end":574.559,"text":"因為機場在興建,公安課勢必會減少班次也減少起碼馬祖北竿地區的民眾飛來台北一般沒有問題至少我希望兩班、三班也可以對觀光的影響"},{"start":575.891,"end":599.725,"text":"那麼民航局可能也要做一些對噪音、空氣品質、還有觀光人數減少這些做一些配套我想在15號,我想到北竿去做一個說明會當然部長你先承諾我,你晚上不要離開你第二天早上才能走好不好?好早上你的幕僚人員跟我講說,部長下午有重要的會議"},{"start":600.726,"end":628.643,"text":"我說當天最重要的就是馬祖的交通考察所以你如果晚上下午就走的話這我覺得不好啦好不好你先承諾我我先來排行程第二天早上好不好我們準價報告稍微我們準價讓你因為交通部很忙我知道啦好不好好那麼何局長這邊請你做一些準備除了這個改建的期程"},{"start":630.214,"end":631.845,"text":"約略的,你跟港務公司講一下"},{"start":633.7,"end":660.145,"text":"那麼跑道的鋪面會影響 那沒辦法鋪面的時間要多長 我想第三行下你應該有經驗了嘛 對不對我覺得你初估應該可以估得出來啦 好不好我想跟民眾既然辦了說明會了嘛我們跟民眾啊 能夠解決他一些疑慮免得每天在那邊機場的事情這個機場的信念勢在必行"},{"start":661.225,"end":686.832,"text":"這飛安很重要馬祖到目前為止你看連山西的機場而不可得還在半導航的狀況會影響到我們飛安的安全所以這個北竿機場的信念非常重要那麼何機長我想你請回好不好另外現在科技非常發達了我在前兩個禮拜出國那麼經過我們中正機場"},{"start":691.012,"end":710.308,"text":"裡面人流非常多,慢慢的已經恢復了空氣品質的改善尤其重要我到一個廁所,機場公司董事長跟我講,那個廁所本來有惡臭啊後來他稍微做一些科技的處理,能夠把空氣品質提升既然我們這個第三航廈是目前"},{"start":712.504,"end":730.695,"text":"比較後面,我們新的一個機場,對裡面空氣品質的改善,有一些能夠利用科技的部分我提醒注意一下好不好好剛才傅坤祺總召提到台鐵高鐵票價雙漲高鐵沒有漲高鐵沒有"},{"start":736.018,"end":755.524,"text":"那現在你什麼時候不漲?現在這個時候漲,又碰到關稅的問題,外面的環境蠻不好的很多店有的打烊了30年沒有漲了,真的是很久我知道一定要漲的,這個不漲是講不過去的啦所以我想說有沒有機會動場,跟電費一樣"},{"start":759.554,"end":768.748,"text":"報告委員這個部分如果是就花東的部分我們會有優惠的方案讓花東的居民可以用比較便宜比較不受這個漲價影響的一個方案出來"},{"start":771.192,"end":793.671,"text":"不會有影響嗎?你們配到6月份也會出來吧?6月份會出來,那影響會盡量降低,不會說完全沒影響因為這個也是全國一致性的問題所以台鐵的票價已經30年沒有漲了,大家應該都能理解台鐵要漲沒有錯,你稍微服務的品質能夠跟高鐵一樣高鐵服務,我昨天去高雄回來,高鐵服務品質非常好"},{"start":794.62,"end":822.878,"text":"我們鄭董在長榮總市長他這個CEO這個經營非常的不錯啦當然我原來也聽說高董要去什麼台鐵什麼的台鐵真的要向高鐵學習怎麼樣轉型台鐵如果可以跟高鐵一樣那就太好了這很重要另外就是這個我們機場興建我又想到一些問題也就是公共工程你看我們的大邱橋"},{"start":824.315,"end":847.046,"text":"為什麼?那個海域風浪非常大施工非常不容易我們縣長王縣長他從前縣長留下來一百多億的工程目前已經執行了五十多億了執行一半了他希望這一百多億的工程能夠在他任內完成如期如質的完成"},{"start":848.206,"end":876.839,"text":"那目前大邱橋也陷入這個問題當然明後年應該會完成還有塘後橋塘後大橋我上次去年去交通委員會考察的時候他答應我今年三月份會完工但是目前已經跳票了我為什麼講這個呢缺工缺料缺工缺料還有我們那個秦碧的停車場到目前為止還沒有消息"},{"start":877.796,"end":898.921,"text":"我去考察三次,已經連續三四年了,希望趕快把它弄出來,好嗎?還有橋子的遊客,橋子的遊客中心,橋子到大丘頭端那邊有遊客中心,這個橋弄好以後,我想觀光客滿多的,遊客中心很重要"},{"start":899.981,"end":918.097,"text":"所以遊客中心到目前為止工程還停滯所以就是說缺工缺料交通部在這部分能夠協助我也當然執行過行政院公共工程委員會請他們多協助所以部長你答應我可不可以,有沒有問題?"},{"start":919.695,"end":942.029,"text":"盡量會協助,我們也希望能夠加速請密的停車場拜託好不好,交代公安署動作快一點還有彈後橋,大橋橋當然是營建署的我想其他的就等交通委員會考察的時候請部長也多做一些功課,對馬祖的問題尤其馬祖大橋,我昨天也打電話給部長現在因為錢的問題,其實也不多"},{"start":947.523,"end":969.701,"text":"部長是不是能夠請世襲公司能夠做一些再精算一次好不好再精算一次,因為我問過陳商啊標金門大學的王董,我先邀標嘛不一定是他,起碼三百億他可以做,他還有錢賺那天卓院長答覆我要三百八十幾億"},{"start":971.024,"end":983.884,"text":"有沒有算錯了我不知道當然我們都不是專家這個我去瞭解一下我去問一些比較專業的下一次我在質詢的時候我想請部長也回答我一些問題謝謝部長你辛苦了謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":362,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（10時15分）謝謝召委，是不是請部長？"],["主席：好，請交通部陳部長。"],["陳委員雪生：還有民航局何局長。"],["主席：民航局何局長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，昨天我到高雄去參加華信關於高雄到馬祖的啟航典禮，昨天陳其邁市長也親自前來，我們馬祖的三長也趕到高雄去了，我在致詞的時候首先先講了，這一個高雄到馬祖的航線，應該是創下我們藍綠共同合作的一個最佳範例，陳其邁市長當場也提到官兵的部分，高雄的子弟，他再補助每一張單人票價1,500塊，當然因為軍方那邊他可能有免票，這個他們已經在討論，而且交代秘書長跟國防部密切的協調。","為了促進人流，陳其邁市長也允諾給予高雄的觀光業者優惠方案，甚至提出希望能夠加強人流，當然馬祖的鄉親對這樣的一個首航非常的興奮也期待，但是覺得班次太少，陳其邁市長也表示確實太少了一點，我致詞的時候也講了，在商言商，華航也好，華信也好，它是一個股份有限公司，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：但有官方去介入，因為它還有私股、民股在裡面嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：對，華航是上市公司。"],["陳委員雪生：所以希望促成這個航線以後，能夠還有第二班、第三班，當然謝董過去的努力，我們非常感念他。高董上來以後，高董原來是華信的董事長，現在華信董事長派了沒有，我不曉得。"],["陳部長世凱：董事長就是高董。"],["陳委員雪生：什麼？還是高董？"],["陳部長世凱：華信還沒。"],["陳委員雪生：華信還沒有嘛？我一直期待我有沒有機會去？部長，你看看有機會的話可以推薦一下，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：大材不要小用。"],["陳委員雪生：不會，我們非常感謝高雄市政府還有中華航空公司、華信航空公司還有民航局、交通部部長任內非常的努力，讓這個航線能夠在6月6號順利啟航，我們藍綠能夠這樣合作最好了，讓這個航線順利啟航，當然裡面還有立法委員包括許智傑委員還有李昆澤委員，大家都幫了很多的忙。","第二件事情，高董，你在這邊，有沒有機會第二班？因為你禮拜五飛過去，那回來呢？觀光客還要回來啊！有機會再加一班，好不好？你努力一下。"],["高董事長星潢：我們努力。"],["陳委員雪生：好不好？我們飛航以後如果可以的話，你再努力一下。我也接續上次對卓院長的總質詢，這個錢要縣政府來出沒什麼道理啊！我們先試飛嘛，好不好？先飛嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：我們先飛啦！運量有起來，其實縣政府就不用補貼，如果運量有超過七成，那是最好的，大家都不用補貼，可以讓華信繼續飛下去，如果超過七成，或許委員剛剛所提到的兩班我們就有機會，我們把運量先養起來。"],["陳委員雪生：我們飛花蓮、飛臺東，你有要臺東縣政府、花蓮縣政府也七成嗎？這個保七沒道理啦，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，當時是縣府自己提出來的。"],["陳委員雪生：對啊！是他們自己提出來的。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員雪生：為了促其實現嘛！所以我們很無奈，就如陳其邁市長講的，這是社會責任……"],["陳部長世凱：我們把它做起來之後……"],["陳委員雪生：你不覺得這是社會責任嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：華信努力，然後我們也請一些旅行業者大家一起共同努力，把運量做起來。"],["陳委員雪生：行的便利、交通的安全，交通部責無旁貸嘛！要縣政府去補貼，你們很丟人耶！七、八千億的預算在那邊，要縣政府去補貼這個小小的幾百萬，這個說不過去啦！我們一起加油一下，好不好？等飛機飛了以後再說。"],["陳部長世凱：一起努力。"],["陳委員雪生：高董請回，謝謝，你休息一下。"],["高董事長星潢：謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：第二個就是馬祖大橋，我在總質詢的時候，以前288億，從一百多億、幾十億到288億，這是世曦精算出來的東西，卓院長突然跟我提到要三百八十幾億，我嚇一跳，我想部長也嚇一跳。英國顧問公司的數據是依據世曦工程顧問公司來的，我問部長，能不能我們再找世曦精算一次，好不好？你看國內的一些重大公共工程，像高鐵，桃園從高架改為地下化，六百多億啊！這個錢都給了，當然目前國內的環境、整個世界的環境是比較困難，我們在財政上比較困難，我也不急於一時說我們今天來討論這個問題，但是我們機場的改建跟馬祖大橋，我想是馬祖最重要的基礎建設，而且影響深遠。何局長下去了，可能還要再請他上來一下。"],["陳部長世凱：可以再上來，沒問題。"],["陳委員雪生：北竿機場空難兩次，我弟弟全家五口罹難，我到現在還是非常悲痛，常常想念到我弟弟。馬祖連一個標準的3C機場都沒有，這還得了啊！這一個機場不只是馬祖北竿的，也是南竿的，更是全體國人的，而且馬祖的芹壁，我們的聚落保存、我們的藍眼淚已經是世界的景觀了，各國的外國人也都來馬祖，所以這個機場的興建勢在必行，當然我也很感謝行政院已經核定了，第一期是兩百二十幾億，還有第二期的航廈工程等等，我也希望它的開工能夠順利。當然這裡面分兩階段，今天港務公司沒有來，我想問何局長，我們馬祖民眾還有一些聲音，也就是配套，最大的聲音當然是來自航空站及立榮航空，為什麼？錢多、事少、離家近，他們怕這個機場一旦施工，那麼這些人要移到南竿去。何局長，你回答我一下，這些人應該不會動吧？或是少量嘛？"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，因為剛剛委員有提到分兩階段，所以現在在做第一階段的細設，這個部分是港公司在做，在這個過程中，我們也會看工程細設的狀況，相關航空站其實在施工期間細設是不會動，因為基本上都還要維持營運……"],["陳委員雪生：是，兩年嘛！"],["何局長淑萍：對，施工期間可能會有做局部的調整，航空站還是要有人在那邊運作，當地其實……"],["陳委員雪生：消防人員也都在嘛！"],["何局長淑萍：對，基本上還是要配置，因為施工期間有施工車輛等等的，相關人員也要飲食，所以航空站的人員跟立榮，或者是相關的商店等等，我們會再做一些協調跟溝通說明。"],["陳委員雪生：我希望能夠學澳門機場的修建模式，即邊飛邊做，當然在圍堤的部分、城鄉的部分，在不影響飛機安全的情況之下，你們怎麼樣去把它區隔出來？這個我想在14、15號交通委員會到馬祖考察的時候，我也希望召委能夠親自出席。"],["主席：去、去、去。"],["陳委員雪生：在考察的時候，順便跟我們鄉親提出來，如果夜間施工或是施工品質影響到地區居民的生活品質，我想有一些噪音等等影響到的，還有觀光的部分，因為機場在興建，觀光客勢必會減少，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員雪生：班次也減少，起碼馬祖北竿地區的民眾飛來臺北，至少一般沒有問題，我希望兩班、三班也可以啦！至於對觀光的影響，民航局可能也要針對噪音、空氣品質及觀光人數減少做一些配套，我想在15號到北竿去做一個說明會，當然部長先承諾我，你晚上不要離開，第二天早上才能走，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：好，早上你的幕僚人員跟我講部長下午有重要的會議，我說當天最重要的就是馬祖的交通考察，所以你如果下午就走的話，我覺得不好啦！你先承諾我，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我現在來排行程。"],["陳委員雪生：第二天早上我們准假，報告召委，我們准假讓你……因為交通部很忙，我知道啦，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：何局長，請你做一些準備，除了改建的期程，你約略跟港務公司講一下，跑道的鋪面會影響，那沒辦法，鋪面的時間要多長？我想第三航廈你應該有經驗了，對不對？我覺得你應該可以粗估出來，好不好？既然辦了說明會，我們能夠解決民眾的一些疑慮，免得每天在處理機場的事情，這個機場的興建勢在必行，飛安很重要，馬祖到目前為止連3C的機場都不可得，還在半導航的狀況，會影響到飛安的安全，所以北竿機場的興建非常重要。何局長，你請回。","另外，現在科技非常發達，我在前兩個禮拜出國，經過中正機場，裡面人流非常多，慢慢已經恢復了，空氣品質的改善尤其重要，我到了一個廁所，機場公司董事長跟我講，那個廁所本來有惡臭，後來他稍微做了一些科技的處理……"],["陳部長世凱：現在有改善了。"],["陳委員雪生：能夠把空氣品質提升，既然第三航廈是目前比較新的一個機場，對於裡面空氣品質的改善，有一些能夠利用科技的部分，我提醒注意一下，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：剛才傅崐萁總召提到臺鐵、高鐵票價雙漲，那麼花……"],["陳部長世凱：高鐵沒有漲。"],["陳委員雪生：高鐵沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員雪生：什麼時候不漲，現在這個時候漲，又碰到關稅的問題，外面的環境蠻不好的耶！很多店有的都打烊了。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，三十年沒有漲了，真的是很……"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，一定要漲的，這個部長是講不過去的啦！所以我想說有沒有機會凍漲，跟電費一樣？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，關於這個部分，如果就花東的部分我們會有優惠的方案，讓花東的居民可以用比較便宜、比較不受漲價影響的一個方案。"],["陳委員雪生：不會有影響嗎？你們配套在6月份也會出來吧？"],["陳部長世凱：6月份會出來，影響會儘量降低，不會說完全沒影響，因為這個也是全國一致性的問題，所以臺鐵的票價已經三十年沒有漲了，大家應該都能理解。"],["陳委員雪生：臺鐵要漲沒有錯，但服務的品質要能夠跟高鐵一樣。"],["陳部長世凱：要提升。"],["陳委員雪生：我昨天從高雄回來，高鐵服務品質非常好，鄭董在長榮……董事長是CEO，經營得非常不錯。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：當然我原來也聽說高董要去臺鐵什麼的，臺鐵真的要向高鐵學習，怎麼樣轉型很重要。"],["陳部長世凱：臺鐵如果可以跟高鐵一樣，那就太好了。"],["陳委員雪生：這很重要。另外，提到機場興建，我就想到一些問題，也就是公共工程，你看我們的大坵橋，為什麼？因為海域的關係，風浪非常大，施工非常不容易，縣政府劉前縣長留下來一百多億的工程，王縣長目前已經執行了五十多億，執行一半了，他希望這一百多億的工程能夠在他任內如期如質的完成，目前大坵橋也陷入這個問題，當然明後年應該會完成。還有塘后大橋，去年交通委員會去考察的時候，他答應我今年3月份會完工，但是目前已經跳票了。我為什麼講這個呢？缺工、缺料，還有我們芹壁的停車場到目前為止還沒有消息，我去考察3次，已經連續三、四年了，希望趕快把它弄出來好不好？芹壁停車場，還有橋仔的遊客中心，橋仔到大坵頭端那邊有遊客中心，這個橋弄好以後，我想觀光客滿多的，遊客中心很重要，但這個遊客中心到目前為止，工程還是停滯的。所以就是缺工、缺料，交通部在這部分能夠協助……當然我也質詢過行政院公共工程委員會，請他們多協助。所以，部長你答應我可不可以？有沒有問題？"],["陳部長世凱：儘量會協助，我們也希望能夠加速……"],["陳委員雪生：芹壁的停車場，拜託，好不好？交代觀光署動作快一點。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們交代。"],["陳委員雪生：還有塘后橋，大坵橋當然是營建署的，我想其他的就等交通委員會考察的時候，請部長也多做一些功課。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：對馬祖的問題，尤其馬祖大橋，我昨天也打電話給部長。現在因為錢的問題，其實也不多，部長是不是能夠請世曦公司再精算一次，好不好？再精算一次！因為我問過承商，標金門大橋的王董，我先邀標嘛，不一定是他，但起碼300億他可以做，他還有錢賺。那天卓院長答復我要三百八十幾億，有沒有算錯了？我不知道！當然我們都不是專家……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個我去了解一下。"],["陳委員雪生：回去了解一下。"],["陳部長世凱：我去問一些比較專業的單位。"],["陳委員雪生：下一次我再質詢的時候，我想請部長也回答我一些問題，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝部長，你辛苦了，謝謝召委，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員的質詢。","特別跟各位報告、跟委員會報告：廖先翔委員質詢完畢，我們就休息10分鐘；何欣純委員質詢完畢，我們就處理臨時動議。","現在請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}