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你就滴啊好 沒關係這個自從韓國瑜當了立法院院長以後啊這個原本訂好的議事規則不管是周萬來寫的書啊國家考試啊考試院不管考什麼題目啊現在這切全部都要寫例外萬來有一個規則"},{"start":49.4,"end":75.195,"text":"現在都要改作例外情形我認同國家科企科立法院相關的規則的時候可能大家考生都要寫 以上寫完 但是發生過例外這樣搞得算完整這次召委排了三天的會這些題目看起來有漂亮嗎 題目有漂亮嗎我講你不要把我打斷"},{"start":77.64,"end":94.432,"text":"這些題目看起來都還蠻中性的第一天白上第一天白立法院的資安要怎麼處理因為我們的各個行政機關從行政院開始到各縣市政府各級機關都有資安問題"},{"start":97.182,"end":107.713,"text":"這樣就請立法院包括相關的人員 秘書長 所有相關的同仁一起來跟大家說明一下立法院的治安第二個題目叫做立法院院區的空間 議事的空間"},{"start":118.141,"end":128.963,"text":"這當然牽扯到立法院要拔除或是要去其他的縣區要刷去台中、武鴻、澳洲 要刷去哪裡 刷去哪裡這些也可以討論請秘書長針對現在規劃的情形來報告也不來 這第二題第三題就要問說立法院很多的議事規則譬如說聽各位開一刀火"},{"start":148.257,"end":165.527,"text":"這個明明開會時間已經定好,到下午的六點,六點一到大家就解散了嘛,慣例就是這樣嘛,六點一到大家就解散了韓國瑜院長進來我就這樣七點十一開始開會,然後處理相關的議案"},{"start":171.09,"end":187.48,"text":"總是大家問說這是慣例嗎?這個如果符合議事規則,那以後這個就是慣例喔那如果是慣例的話,那以後可能不只這個立法院的院長、副院長,比如說這個"},{"start":189.834,"end":202.299,"text":"莊瑞雄召委,林耕英做召委,或是我做召委開會說今天開到5點半,我6點就12點來處理議案這是不是我們被管理,這也希望立法院的秘書長來跟我們說明一下,議事處長來說明一下來,每個人來今天要的題目"},{"start":214.259,"end":234.766,"text":"說立法院也有可能成為國安的破口嘛因為裡面有立法委員啊有國會助理啊有立法院的議事人員啊很多人都會接觸到所謂的國安的這個文件裡頭可能是有機密的我們今天有寫一個密的開會的時候啊這個機密會議最之前啊這禮拜有一個會叫做不公開會議"},{"start":244.751,"end":263.067,"text":"有一個公開會議 機密會議 還有一個假鬧的 發明一個叫做不公開會議那到底是不是機密會議 總是大家可以問一下那這些題目啊 其實都還蠻中性的因為我們昨晚來秘書長啊 韓國瑜拚來當秘書長的時候吼 明天啊 把他抄大告 惡惡告"},{"start":270.217,"end":277.019,"text":"什麼在活字典,什麼立法委員、國會助理,如果沒有把他寫的文章都不會開花。好,現在大家來了,很認真把他寫,要來做國會助理的,大家手頭都一本,大家來議事處理到一半,不知道就拿一本給我看看。"},{"start":290.953,"end":296.916,"text":"我們這佛寺殿有跟我們說什麼嗎?阿董事就這樣抄大到多厚多厚歷經多少院長,對什麼開始做什麼都罰什麼草野協商都罰,義士過去的爭議什麼都罰俄羅斯給他打字"},{"start":311.206,"end":317.65,"text":"後來當時奇怪的, 韓國的做議長之後, 整個立法院開會都早晨,沒有叫幾個來走,在立法院職權行司法、憲法、訴訟法、選罷法,不管是議事程序,還是法律的解說,昨晚來講的,有個另外一套,這樣韓國的老闆說什麼?"},{"start":340.506,"end":349.393,"text":"韓國瑜如果坐在那裡,昨晚如果跟他說怎麼樣,他就怎麼樣我們議事處長說繼續唸,繼續唸,把他唸完,韓國瑜就把他唸完先韓國瑜不義,韓國瑜就聽兵這幾個一直跟他說,一直獨自調依,一直唸,一直唸,一直唸搞到現在立法院到底開花的規則是什麼,我們也搞不清楚"},{"start":366.613,"end":375.382,"text":"所以我們召委就用心良苦,想說一天不夠,不如請秘書長來讓我們問三天不敢逮捕大家,深入探討一下,不可以來,不可以來也很出名的你如果不可以來,我六種方式,一種你就要親家嘛,親家也很多方式"},{"start":388.787,"end":401.111,"text":"請教一般一開始都要先靠一個電話,跟趙薇說,就另有要講什麼如何如何,不可以來,我要加單,跟金寶來第二種,為了電話沒要靠就一條,加一條公文來,我就沒辦法來不然就是把整季出來說,這就如何如何,所以照過去幾十年來的慣例,我就興奮上,沒辦法去,所以如何如何"},{"start":417.998,"end":432.942,"text":"可是我們這裏的秘書長,這些動作都沒有做都沒有做,書面的文件都沒有,端端的不可以來,還有請韓國的寫一張文情並茂,還有燙金的什麼,那也不是叫請假單,那也不是什麼單,像現在還有一張抓來,這裏沒有人,這裏人一張抓就沒有"},{"start":442.622,"end":447.905,"text":"這次就是發動媒體,叫媒體跟各位委員說,我沒有要去就算是小白,昨晚來這種就算是小白啦,大型啦小白啦,大型啦,當作自己多厲害,剛多厲害啦我要說啦,那個什麼新聞局啦,那個什麼湯津的那個長大啦那絕對不是韓國的事啦,韓國還不夠多"},{"start":470.714,"end":474.596,"text":"那些人早晚來自己寫的啦 自己提自己寫說不可以來的理由啦像這種的 在書上都會記載的 會記載那些缺席的像莊瑞雄早晚擺這個廢料 除了這個早晚來沒來 創下紀錄一番你這樣三天沒到黃國昌三天沒有登記發言"},{"start":495.953,"end":508.404,"text":"這如果算出席率就對了 該委員會出席率 黃國昌是缺席三次欸 你們這抄什麼給我看好黃國昌有三天沒有來開會 簽到完就跑了簽到完就跑 黃國昌有三天 簽完到就跑了沒有登記發言 第一次看到黃國昌會怕 不敢來發言 為什麼"},{"start":521.257,"end":523.261,"text":"為什麼 因為現在北蘭的人說的就糾正了嘛就靠你們說都不可以來 不可以來 還要顧名叼義 還要來遷到"},{"start":532.213,"end":536.577,"text":"你們白臘娘娘在這個會不能叫祖母奶奶 你們千刀就不可以 又沽名釣譽好 叫我會議紀錄頂管 沒我們的名字 哎呦 當個酸民的我們在廠裡說 國產老師怎麼沒有去開會 國產老師怎麼沒有去開會啊 過去 頂記了 快來鬧跑 怎麼沒有登記發言"},{"start":552.521,"end":572.549,"text":"為什麼沒有登記花園啊王國昌你為什麼三天都沒有登記花園啊你給他唱啊 講啊那你如果不登記 你為什麼還簽到你為什麼還簽到 顧名釣譽啦顧名釣譽啦 他要過一個月才說我哪有沒有人去 我覺得人家有簽到對啊你有簽到啊但是連登記花園都沒有啊這個都是喔 因為週末來沒辦法來演化的後續的這個效果"},{"start":581.257,"end":588.2,"text":"因為這個出來的這個效果好,但是說昨晚來不來,不來請教連書面資料也不給連書面資料也不給今天說這個立法院領綱的議事空間是要怎麼處理是不是有這個簽證啊什麼的計畫嘛這個案子很久了,很久了"},{"start":608.578,"end":630.672,"text":"阿目前的進度是怎樣阿昨晚來也來做一年多阿韓國的也做一年多做一年多阿目前進度是怎樣連一張帳都不該跟人家說連一個進度都不跟國人說明這是傲慢傲慢啦 漂白啦 大型啦就是這樣第二個"},{"start":634.241,"end":648.838,"text":"大家問說立法院有國安破口 立法院有沒有國安的機制啊防止這個破口 不管是資安的破口 人員啊可能涉及的這個國安相關的這個破口那你懷疑這陣子也有回到這個情形嗎"},{"start":654.086,"end":665.735,"text":"總是做一個立法院的行政單位包括秘書長、資訊相關的單位、副執行總是要來替大家報告一下說現在立法院要處理國安的問題、資安的問題現在到底我們做了什麼樣的努力沒有,連一張座也沒有"},{"start":684.551,"end":696.179,"text":"不要請教,不給書面資料,也不跟召委商量一下,說我怎麼樣就怎麼樣,怎麼樣就怎麼樣,沒辦法怎麼樣,怎麼樣也沒有這如果成為慣例,以後我們的行政部門,醫療就對了行政院長,也一樣如法炮製,衝一場燙金的端來"},{"start":714.523,"end":731.132,"text":"我還要講喔 臨江啊 我們這什麼內政部長不可以去我們這交通部長不可以去 我也不可以去 我們就都不可以去 啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊"},{"start":744.171,"end":770.748,"text":"後來把吳宗憲召委擺的議程請司法院的副秘書長來司法院的副秘書長來如果司法院一樣發一個公文來說不好意思比照辦理立法院秘書長不出席我司法院的副秘書長也不出席我的總統府以後也不要出席"},{"start":771.618,"end":775.824,"text":"那請問禮拜一 我就看禮拜一吳宗憲要怎麼主持看禮拜一吳宗憲要怎麼主持"},{"start":784.542,"end":793.908,"text":"你國民黨做招委,你就要求這行政部門的秘書長、副秘書長都要來,如果不要來就在叭叭叫,黨議黨的口水噴,整個麥克風都熄,都在咆哮"},{"start":804.464,"end":829.871,"text":"啊 你們香港的領導的立法院 昨晚來 立法院秘書站不該來齁 你們這樣幾天 顧名釣譽 命沉沉地繞跑不敢登記花園 不敢做任何的抨擊啊 想這種的感冒喔 這抄襪牆 你們也看一看啊 你們民眾黨的 都在點點 都可以不要來齁 黃國昌缺席三次 蹺課"},{"start":832.261,"end":833.802,"text":"蹺課!蹺課!這樣沒有人會這樣啦這招委喔,白哲文也很辛苦,我一天7塊就招委,白哲這個帝寶我想說,這帝寶也很中性的你來就說明,沒得說明就叫車旁邊的處長什麼議事處長,什麼處長來倒過也可以啊"},{"start":854.537,"end":869.268,"text":"都不要來,沒有來跟你譴責是剛好而已所以今天去啦,當然我對面這個周恩來秘書長今天是沒有來啦啊沒有來,我們說實在的,沒有來,我們也沒有辦法逼他來啦我們這個周圍算客氣啦,你看人家後來拜日吳宗憲面對有人沒有來,人家的態度是怎樣"},{"start":881.622,"end":898.561,"text":"對不對 你是跟資深衝突得好啊 你如果吳宗憲處理這條就沒什麼用了我就看吳宗憲後來拜他 有辦法像我們這個莊瑞相遭的 劈起劍以後 再做到他娓娓道來"},{"start":901.086,"end":913.45,"text":"說一些成語好,我今天就質詢到這裡就請趙偉安排這三天的議程終於讓我在第三天有講到話了好,謝謝趙偉好,謝謝王一川委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":46,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時11分）謝謝召委，有請周萬來秘書長。"],["主席：沒來啦！你就在那邊……"],["王委員義川：沒關係。自從韓國瑜當了立法院院長以後，原本定好的議事規則，不管是周萬來寫的書，國家考試考試院不管考什麼題目，現在全部都要寫例外。本來是有個規則的，現在都要改成例外情形，我看哪天國家考試要考立法院相關的規則時，可能每個考生都要寫「以上寫完，但是發生過例外」，這樣才算完整。","這次召委排了3天的會，這些題目看起來……"],["主席：有漂亮嗎？題目漂亮嗎？"],["王委員義川：我在講，你別打斷我。"],["主席：好。"],["王委員義川：這些題目看起來都還滿中性的，第一天排什麼呢？第一天是排立法院的資安要怎麼處理，因為各個行政機關，從行政院開始到各縣市政府的各級機關都有資安問題，於是就請立法院，包括相關的人員，秘書長率相關的同仁一起向大家說明一下立法院的資安，但都沒來。第二個題目叫做立法院的院區空間、議事的空間，這當然會牽涉到立法院要不要搬遷，或是要有其他的院區，像是要移到臺中、霧峰、烏日，也有人說要移到哪、移到哪，這些也可以討論啊！請秘書長針對現在規劃的情形來報告，也不來！這是第二題。第三題是問，立法院有很多的議事規則，譬如上個月有開過一場會，明明開會時間已經定好了，就是到下午6點。6點一到大家就解散了，慣例就是這樣，韓國瑜院長竟然有辦法在7點的時候摸進來，開始開會，然後處理相關的議案。所以大家總是要問，這是慣例了嗎？這個如果符合議事規則，那以後這個就是慣例了，如果是慣例的話，以後可能不只是立法院的院長、副院長，譬如莊瑞雄召委，哪天他當召委還是我當召委在開會的時候說今天開到5點半，我到6點就摸進來處理議案，這是不是可以變成慣例，這也希望立法院的秘書長跟我們說明一下，也請議事處長來說明一下，但他們都不屑來。","今天的題目是，立法院也有可能成為國安的破口嗎？因為裡面的立法委員，有國會助理，也有立法院的議事人員，有很多人都會接觸到所謂機密的國安文件，就是在文件上有寫「密」字的，或是在開會的時候，開的是機密會議，像這禮拜有個會就是不公開會議。會議有公開會議、機密會議，還有一位假能幹的發明一個叫做「不公開會議」，那個到底是不是機密會議？總是要讓大家問一下。這些題目其實都還滿中性的，因為周萬來秘書長被韓國瑜聘來當秘書長的時候，媒體把他吹捧成、誇讚成什麼活字典，說什麼立法委員、國會助理如果沒有讀他寫的那本書，都不會開會。現在大家來就很認真讀他的書，要來當國會助理的手上都有一本，大家如果處理議事處理到一半不知怎麼處理，就再拿那本翻來看這個活字典跟我們說什麼。當時就這樣諸多吹捧，說有多麼厲害，說歷經多少院長，從什麼開始做，什麼都懂，什麼朝野協商也都懂，對於過去議事的爭議，什麼都懂，讚美有加！既然讚美有加，就奇怪了！韓國瑜當院長之後，整個立法院開會都走樣，沒有照規矩走，什麼立法院職權行使法、憲法訴訟法、什麼選罷法，不管是議事程序，還是對於法律的解釋，周萬來講的又是另外一套，把韓國瑜拖得暈頭轉向。韓國瑜坐在那裡，周萬來跟他說怎樣，他就怎樣，議事處長說繼續唸、繼續唸，把它唸完，韓國瑜就把它唸完。這樣陷韓國瑜於不義！韓國瑜就聽旁邊這幾個一直跟他說，一直拿字條給他，他就一直唸、一直唸，搞到現在立法院的開會規則到底是什麼，也搞不清楚！所以我們召委就用心良苦，想說問一天不夠，不然，請秘書長來讓我們問三天，就不同的題目，大家深入探討一下。","結果他不要來，他不要來也很有趣！不要來有好幾種方式，一種要請假，請假也有很多方式，一般一開始都要先打個電話跟召委說另有要公怎樣怎樣不能來，假單再趕快補來，第二種、有的不打電話，就直接寄一張公文來，說沒辦法來，不然就是拿規矩出來，說怎樣怎樣，照過去幾十年來的慣例，身分上就沒辦法來，所以怎樣怎樣。可是這次我們的秘書長都沒做這些動作，都沒做，書面的文件都沒有，上次不要來還有請韓國瑜寫一張文情並茂而且燙金的單，那也不是請假單，不知是什麼單，至少還有一張紙來，這次不一樣，這次連一張紙都沒有，這次就是發給媒體，叫媒體跟委員說他不要來。這算囂張啦！周萬來這種的算囂張啦！忘形啦！囂張啦！忘形啦！當作自己多麼厲害，我跟你說，那個什麼新聞稿，那個燙金的什麼單，絕對不是韓國瑜寫的，韓國瑜哪裡懂那麼多，那是周萬來自己寫的，自己替自己寫不要來的理由啦！像這種的，歷史上都會記載，會記載他缺席耶！","你知不知道，莊瑞雄召委排定這個會之後，除了周萬來沒來創下紀錄以外，他這樣三天沒來搞到黃國昌三天沒有登記發言，如果這要算該委員會出席率，黃國昌是缺席三次耶！你們這些草仔和蔥仔要看好，黃國昌有三天沒有來開會，簽到完就跑了，簽到完就跑，黃國昌有三天簽完到就跑了，沒有登記發言。如果要第一個發言的話，看到黃國昌會怕，不敢來發言，為什麼？為什麼？因為現在白藍二黨都知會了，下令都不能來，不能來，還要沽名釣譽，來簽到。你們白藍二黨如果認為這個會不能叫周萬來來，你們連簽到都不行，還要沽名釣譽，害怕會議紀錄上面沒有你們的名字，回去會被選民罵，那些蔥仔會說國昌老師怎麼沒有去開會？國昌老師怎麼沒有去開會？所以乾脆登記後趕快跑，不然怎麼沒有登記發言？為什麼沒有登記發言？黃國昌，你為什麼三天都沒有登記發言？你跟蔥仔說清楚，那你如果不登記發言，為什麼還簽到？你為什麼還簽到？沽名釣譽啦！沽名釣譽啦！過1個月以後他會說他哪裡沒有來，他明明有簽到，對啊！他有簽到，但是連登記發言都沒有！這個都是因為周萬來不要來衍生的後續效果，衍生出來的效果。","再來，周萬來不要來也不請假，連書面資料也不給，連書面資料也不給。要問他關於未來立法院的議事空間要怎麼處理，是不是有什麼遷建的計畫？這個也推動很久了，好幾屆了，目前的進度是怎樣？周萬來也到任一年多了，韓國瑜也任院長一年多了，目前這個進度是怎樣？連一張紙都不跟我們說，連一個進度都不跟國人說明，這是傲慢，傲慢啦！囂張啦！忘形啦！就是這種的。第二個、大家要問既然立法院有國安破口，立法院有沒有國安的機制防止這個破口？不管是資安的破口，人員可能涉及國安的相關破口，立法院這陣子也有遇到這種情形，作為立法院的行政單位，包括秘書長，還有資安相關的、資訊相關的單位、負責人，總是要來跟大家報告一下，說現在為了要處理這些國安的問題、資安的問題，到底立法院做了什麼樣的努力。結果沒有，連一張紙也不給，不請假，不給書面資料，也不跟召委商量一下，說他怎樣怎樣，所以沒辦法來，也沒有！","這如果成為慣例，以後我們的行政部門、行政院長也一樣如法炮製，弄一張燙金的單來，我跟你說，到時候說內政部長不能來、交通部長不能來、他也不能來，他們都不能來，怎樣怎樣的，這樣可行嗎？這樣不可行啊！既然不可行，為什麼周萬來要立下這個示範？我們今天請立法院秘書長來報告，他不要來，下禮拜吳宗憲召委排定的議程，請司法院的副秘書長來，如果司法院一樣發一個公文來說不好意思！比照辦理，立法院秘書長不出席，司法院的副秘書長也不出席，總統府以後也不要出席。我就看禮拜一吳宗憲要怎麼主持，看禮拜一吳宗憲要怎麼主持！你們國民黨委員當召委的時候，就要求行政部門的秘書長、副秘書長都要來，如果不要來、不來，你們就在那邊叭叭叫，用力捶椅子、桌子，口水噴得整個麥克風都是，在那邊咆哮，你們韓國瑜領導的立法院周萬來秘書長不要來，你們就這樣整群沽名釣譽，簽名之後就跑，不敢登記發言，不敢做任何抨擊，像這種的有用嗎？草仔和蔥仔也看一下，民眾黨的都默不作聲，都可以不來，黃國昌缺席三次，蹺課！蹺課！蹺課！沒人這樣啦！","召委排這個也是很辛苦，一開始看到召委排定這個題目，我想這個也很中性，你來就說明，沒辦法說明就請旁邊的處長，什麼議事處長、什麼處長，來幫忙說也可以，結果都不要來，不要來，給你譴責是剛好而已！當然我對面這個周萬來秘書長今天是沒來、沒來！我們說實在的，我們也沒辦法逼他來啦！我們召委也算客氣，你就看人家下禮拜一，吳宗憲面對有人沒來的態度是怎樣，對不對？你是比較資深、風度比較好，如果是吳宗憲處理這件事就不太一樣，喔，就那樣「叭叭叫」！我就看吳宗憲下禮拜一有沒有辦法像我們莊瑞雄召委脾氣這麼好，還坐在那邊娓娓道來、說一些成語？","好，我今天就質詢到這裡，謝謝召委安排這3天的議程，終於讓我在第三天講到話了，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝王義川委員，他很認真的到場，不能因為行政部門的官員沒有到場而讓大家都沒有機會發言。","接下來，我們請陳培瑜委員發言。我會說「發言」的原因就是，要質詢卻沒人，你自己看看！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":172,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-14","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","沈發惠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請立法院秘書長、議事處處長、法制局局長列席就「防止立法院成為國安破口─ 避免共諜滲\n透、機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件之防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}