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科技業進行專題報告．並備質詢。宣讀完畢好原理介紹在場委員首先介紹我們財政委員會執行委員吳秉瑞吳委員"},{"start":1832.861,"end":1856.694,"text":"另一位資深委員．林德福林委員接下來我們介紹官員．中央銀行．楊金龍總裁業務局．潘榮耀局長發行局．鄧炎達局長外匯局．蔡炯門局長經濟研究處．吳亦娟處長"},{"start":1861.294,"end":1886.232,"text":"秘書處梁建金處長資訊處李瑞勳處長法務室吳坤山主任財經公司林國良董事長金管會彭青龍主委中規處吳哲華處長銀行局莊秀元局長政區張正山局長"},{"start":1892.844,"end":1913.374,"text":"保險局施雄華局長檢察局張子昊局長吉保公司林秉輝董事長陳德湘總經理今年徵信中心薄建忠董事長張國民總經理"},{"start":1919.226,"end":1932.635,"text":"金融研訓院林仲威副院長速發部林怡靜政務次長林青鑫組長"},{"start":1937.828,"end":1957.22,"text":"今天已曾安排邀請中央銀行楊總裁就數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型．金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員數發部就創新金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業進行專題報告現在請中央銀行楊總裁進行專題報告請進行報告謝謝"},{"start":1971.324,"end":1991.175,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天曾邀前來貴委員會報告數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型專題自感榮幸以下請就專題內容提出報告進行會事指教現代貨幣體系主要是由央行貨幣及商業銀行貨幣所過程"},{"start":1994.376,"end":2013.947,"text":"並形成由央行及商業銀行串聯運作的雙層體系架構。其中,中央銀行貨幣不僅是貨幣體系的定貓,金融交易的最佳信用資產亦是維持金融穩定及貨幣政策有效性的基礎。"},{"start":2015.441,"end":2031.75,"text":"因應數位科技的演進本行推動貨幣的數位轉型進行央行數位貨幣的研究與試驗期望未來CPTC的發行能發揮穩定貨幣及金融的角色與功能有關推動現況及未來規劃說明日次"},{"start":2036.012,"end":2054.28,"text":"目前,我們已建置CPTC族群平臺,它的架構是採雙城市架構發行,發行初期不計息,錢包分級,隱私及個人資料保護,資安的管理,多種零售支付的功能。"},{"start":2055.3,"end":2069.485,"text":"目前我們正推動三項工程,第一個進行廣泛的溝通第二個是精進平台的技術第三是嚴厲法律的架構未來的規劃近期隨著貸幣化技術的發展資產貸幣化的議題備受關注"},{"start":2076.528,"end":2091.418,"text":"在代幣化的世界仍需央行貨幣作為貨幣體系的定貌及侵犯資產並與商業銀行貨幣共同建構安全效率的貨幣體系因此發展批發型CPTC及銀行存款代幣將是未來推動貨幣數位轉型的重點"},{"start":2097.489,"end":2112.278,"text":"各位都知道比特幣因為不具備交易、媒介、計價單位及價值的儲藏等三項功能所以我們認為比特幣跟穩定幣等虛擬資產並非是數位貨幣體系的一環"},{"start":2117.445,"end":2125.209,"text":"在資產代幣化技術的興起仍需央行貨幣作為貨幣體系的電腦及晶元化資產代幣化是將現實世界的資產所衍生的經濟價值及權力連結至區塊鏈上的代幣"},{"start":2135.574,"end":2162.64,"text":"並於鏈上進行交易清算藉此串聯實體經濟與虛擬市場。由於資產代幣化可提供全天候、跨境及跨時區交易服務可提高經營的效率且可將資產分割成多個小額代幣降低投資門檻、增加流動性等潛在優勢以及可城市化功能可"},{"start":2163.28,"end":2183.96,"text":"可能具有未來的發展性為確保在代幣化世界的交易清算仍具安全與效率以央行貨幣及商業銀行貨幣共購貨幣體系並以央行貨幣作為貨幣體系的定保及清算仍將是最佳的政策方案"},{"start":2185.37,"end":2202.29,"text":"國有金算銀行及主要國家軍債盈利將批發行央行貨幣及銀行存款予以代幣化的議題本行亦正進行相關的概念驗證將協同參與銀行建置代幣化共用平台"},{"start":2203.651,"end":2215.997,"text":"進行以下三種情境的試驗。第一個是銀行存款代幣之跨行移轉。第二個是資產代幣之款券同步交割。第三個是特殊目的代幣。"},{"start":2218.922,"end":2248.382,"text":"推動CBDC並非國際競賽。CBDC不是先發及具優勢。例如目前已發行CBDC或是進入4.5國家激進發展情況均不如預期。我國與先進國家相同支付多元便利,原對發行CBDC的態度較為謹慎。主要期望CBDC的推行能符合大眾數位支付需求與政府數位政策發展目標以發揮實質的效益。"},{"start":2250.183,"end":2277.362,"text":"本來在研究試驗的過程中同時在提升國內支付效率及創新本來目前雖然無發行CPTC的明確的時間表但在持續研究試驗的過程中已在精進支付系統的處理效率及創新應用例如新開發零售支付的CPTC儲蓄平台已可支援數位券的金流作業且每秒受理交易比數"},{"start":2278.483,"end":2293.51,"text":"以提升至2萬筆。此外,正規劃批發型CPTC的概念印證以批發型CPTC作為資產代幣化的清算資產並結合銀行存款代幣功能共同建構未來數位貨幣體系。"},{"start":2296.771,"end":2319.583,"text":"CPTC的發行是一項巨大且長期的工程本行仍將穩步持續探索試驗其未來發展性並持續關注國際發展的趨勢CPTC的推動是一項巨大且複雜的工程需長期進行本行仍將穩步的推動確保數位支付政策的周圓"},{"start":2320.603,"end":2334.371,"text":"必使未來數位轉型的貨幣有助於國家數位經濟與數位金融的發展以上報告敬請各位委員先進會室指教謝謝謝謝楊總裁的報告接著我們請金管會彭主委進行專題報告"},{"start":2340.583,"end":2362.399,"text":"主席、各位委員先進、央行及各部會同仁、媒體朋友大家早今天陳貴委員會邀請就創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業進行專題報告、進行指教根據BIS WEF發布的最新報告金融科技的發展趨勢重點由以下五個方向"},{"start":2363.881,"end":2387.558,"text":"人工智慧重要性日趨嚴重AI對於金融科技的影響可能從業務流程的優化到科物的直接互動到金融產業應用AI技術的法令遵循、資訊安全等全面性的影響ESG提升金融科技發展動能如綠能產業及氣候變遷項目的數位貸款、碳追蹤與核算、供應鏈追蹤等資產代幣化快速發展"},{"start":2388.499,"end":2412.287,"text":"比埃斯提出金融互聯網概念作為未來金融體系的願景資產代幣化將大幅減少冗長的資訊傳遞及清算過程提升更高效率可靠的服務刊注式的金融及開放金融持續成長開放銀行及開放金融可促進大規模資料共享推動業務模式金融商品創新"},{"start":2413.027,"end":2431.003,"text":"五、金融科技公司拓展B2B業務越來越多的金融科技公司將業務重心放在開發B2B而非直接向個人客戶提供服務二、我國金融科技推動的發展狀況具體做法如下一、推動創新實驗與雙軌機制金管會推動金融科技創新實驗金融業務事辦雙軌並行機制成果如下"},{"start":2439.583,"end":2448.732,"text":"一、創新實驗截至113年5月底即受理16件申請案已核准9件業務事辦共受理92件已核准79件"},{"start":2451.264,"end":2474.741,"text":"法規條式鬆綁部分根據國發會最新統計金管會鬆綁建樹為各部會次多推動開放金融開放銀行部分分3階段推動開放銀行政策第一階段27家金融機構及5家第三方服務公司參與第二階段17家銀行與1家TSP業者共計24個合作案經金管會核准上線"},{"start":2475.891,"end":2496.802,"text":"三、第三階段開放項目包括存款、信用卡、貸款、支付、手機門號轉帳等五種業務種類共計35項開放證券部分截至113年5月抵止共有16家證券期貨業者3家TSP業者完成串接是鼓勵金融業應用AI技術部分我們發布了"},{"start":2497.282,"end":2511.407,"text":"金融業運用AI之核心原則及政策也發布了《金融業運用AI指引》國內金融業根據本會的調查我國金融業及周邊單位應用AI在金融業部分銀行使用AI的比率為74%"},{"start":2514.008,"end":2537.216,"text":"其次為受請公司62以及慘險公司50%五推動資料共享金融機構間資料共享我們在110年發布金融機構資料共享指引繼有90家金融機構依上開指引辦理新增資資料共享跨機構資料共享部分預計今年底完成修訂金融機構資料共享資料指引"},{"start":2538.196,"end":2544.222,"text":"6.成立金融科技園區協助金融科技業者發展招募新創會員截至113年5月底,園區共招募169家來自於35個國家地區的新創團隊進駐。"},{"start":2553.46,"end":2573.421,"text":"業者育成與輔導共計創新中心輔導72件、監理門診236場再來培育金融科技人才以及促進國際合作﹐截至目前已與英國、澳洲、法國等9個官方駐台辦事處簽訂MOU並累積37個國家合作夥伴建立合作關係"},{"start":2574.662,"end":2587.322,"text":"但我國現在金融科技發展仍面臨下面以下四個挑戰第一個,金融科技人才不足台灣雖有良好的教育基礎及科技培訓機構但金融科技人才缺口仍大"},{"start":2588.41,"end":2614.251,"text":"主要因為我國高科技產業具全球競爭優勢企業獲利良好具吸引科技人才流入之優勢二、監理資源應該與時俱進隨著創新商品服務快速發展社會期待及國際趨勢促使各主要國家金融主管機關逐漸擴大業務範圍然政府機關之組織及員額增加人受限於法規預算人員分配等多項因素無法同步成長"},{"start":2616.077,"end":2632.353,"text":"金融科技生態圈需進一步擴展．台灣金融業發展雖然成熟但國內市場規模相對有限競爭激烈需加強金融機構間與金融科技公司間金融產業與其他產業間之合作進一步推動金融科技生態圈的發展"},{"start":2633.254,"end":2645.399,"text":"降低同質化競爭壓力,是新創業者需要更多的協助,金融科技公司多數新創業者雖具有技術但可能在制度建立、發展策略等方面仍需輔導與支持。"},{"start":2647.301,"end":2664.011,"text":"金管會未來努力的方向金管會推動金融科技之方向希望在風險可控的前提之下讓金融創新有更大的容錯空間以增加市場發展的可能性未來將推動以下措施鼓勵金融科技發展與扶植金融科技產業一"},{"start":2666.795,"end":2678.499,"text":"將偵測金融市場發展與創新處為專責單位金管會決定在首鼠架構下先偵測專責單位金融市場發展與創新處強化金融科技發展促進創新實驗與業務事辦推動永續金融鬆綁法令開創金融與科技發展契機二"},{"start":2686.822,"end":2706.912,"text":"設置金融行動創新法規調適平台、下設科技創新工作小組讓金融科技產學界可及時提出有關金融科技政策及法規的建議意見經由金管會加速評估、快速回應3、研議放寬金融科技業務事辦範圍我們將修正銀行保險與證券期貨商業業務事辦範圍大幅放寬可以進行"},{"start":2710.594,"end":2730.668,"text":"創新事辦之範圍將由現行核准業務項目的擴展以及法令所列有其他金主管之間核准者外開放與金管會行政規則、工會自律規範、周邊單位規章等規範範圍內提出相應風險管理機制或配套下針對各項金融活動創新或科技應用"},{"start":2731.124,"end":2755.366,"text":"均可申請業務事辦．並鼓勵金融業與國外金融科技業者共同合作事辦．4強化金融監理沙盒的落地機制．辦理委外研究範圍包含沿西各國監理沙盒之涵蓋範圍．運作方式、落地機制．今晚會將評估調整監理沙盒機制．增加創新實驗案件．並提升實驗案件落地之可行性．"},{"start":2756.147,"end":2762.534,"text":"五、多方面扶植新創產業將持續優化金融科技創新園區功能提供新創輔導資源等多項活動"},{"start":2766.102,"end":2791.776,"text":"推動實體世界資產化代幣化工作的推動．期望透過該項工作．帶動生態系的形成．促進金融業發掘商機．規劃未來數位轉型之策略方向專法納管．促進市場健全發展．未來將推動虛擬資產管理專法立法．以有效納管市場行為．同時促進金融科技及VSAP產業的健全發展"},{"start":2793.61,"end":2806.976,"text":"8.優化金融科技人才培育機制,未來規劃培訓認證內容並推出主題式培訓課程以迅速因應國際發展及市場需求。9."},{"start":2806.976,"end":2812.658,"text":"持續完善資料共享機制,促進客戶資料合理適用,創建金融生態圈。10."},{"start":2812.658,"end":2814.238,"text":"持續推動金融科技發展路徑圖2.0。"},{"start":2816.482,"end":2843.028,"text":"金管會將持續透過各種措施促進金融業數位轉型升級及扶植金融科技業者發展並收集相關金融科技生態系業者之意見與國外之做法營造友善金融科技創新之環境發展貼近民眾需求的創新金融商品或服務優化客戶體驗及豐富場景金融落實普惠金融創造金融服務新價值"},{"start":2843.968,"end":2847.673,"text":"以上報告敬請各位委員指教並祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":2867.25,"end":2881.572,"text":"主席、各位委員及與會各機關代表今天應邀列席貴委員會針對創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技產業進行專題報告緊就數位發展部業務部分向各位報告"},{"start":2882.97,"end":2907.192,"text":"金融科技產業的發展．不僅包括金融業者的數位轉型．好包括新創業者應用數位科技於金融領域．其中數位貨幣之推展由中央銀行主導．虛擬通貨之管理與輔導由金管會主管．數發部則是負責第三方支付服務業的管理與輔導．並透過鼓勵數位導入與創新應用．賦能於金融科技產業"},{"start":2908.493,"end":2927.228,"text":"數位發展部成立以後,擔任非金融事業之第三方支付服務業的目的事業主管機關。我們從以下三個方向來強化第三方支付服務業的管理及輔導。第一,我們建立能量登錄制度。由於第三方支付"},{"start":2930.051,"end":2951.422,"text":"由於第三方支付經常被詐騙集團拿來當作詐騙的工具所以數法部在112年7月啟動第三方支付服務能量登錄制度要求申請業者提出洗錢方誌及法遵聲明書使能登錄並審查其人力配置與素質、時機、執行管理能力、財務狀況等項目並與金管會達成部會聯防共識"},{"start":2958.337,"end":2984.087,"text":"為先完成能量登錄之第三方支付業者銀行在其開戶時就不會受理另外,我們也修訂了第三方支付服務業防治洗錢及打擊滋恐辦法第五之一條第三方支付服務業因依本部之指示之程序之方式申請辦理洗錢防治及服務能量登錄其經審查通過者由本部通知並引以公告"},{"start":2984.844,"end":3006.632,"text":"那本來有一萬多家的企業他在進行工商登錄的時候他們是有列入第三方支付的業務但是直到113年7月3日止我們在實施這個能量登錄制度以後送件生存登錄的業者總共只有82家然後通過審查的業者總共就62家所以我們這樣子就是讓這些"},{"start":3009.932,"end":3029.554,"text":"想要進行那個第三方支付的業者就是有一個依循然後有那個縮減我們那個管理的範圍那第二我們會落實法尊數法部已訂定第三方支付服務業防治洗錢指引手冊及其範本並提供"},{"start":3031.109,"end":3056.502,"text":"內政部護證系統及吉保公司實質受益人資料庫協助業者進行法遵業及落實客戶身份確認 以強化第三方支付業者落實洗錢防治及打擊指控辦法的規定。我們要求業者落實審查客戶網站的義務以降低第三方支付業"},{"start":3057.683,"end":3080.429,"text":"被利用於博弈洗錢、詐欺等不法犯罪之工具也將研發相關網頁偵測工具讓業者對於賣方客戶進行網頁定期偵測異常情形防犯業者於申請第三方支付服務後偷偷轉型為博弈平台或是販賣特殊商品另外,為協助第三方支付業者落實洗錢防治﹐"},{"start":3082.694,"end":3109.745,"text":"防治洗錢聯盟．數法部憲政規劃建置第三方支付服務業產業聯防平臺規劃由第三方支付業者上傳涉嫌違法之賣方客戶資訊將疑似洗錢或滋恐交易之名單資訊上傳平臺系統數法部協助建置平臺預計於113年年底前上線供第三方支付業者自律使用鼓勵業者聯防"},{"start":3111.462,"end":3129.445,"text":"第三點,我們建置查詢平臺。訴發部已經建置第三方支付服務業虛擬賬號查詢平臺,彙整能量登錄公告業者虛擬賬號、銀行代碼、識別碼、主要聯絡人、電話、傳證以及email等,建立第三方支付業者與"},{"start":3130.906,"end":3154.852,"text":"檢警調快速溝通管道可協助檢警調單位更快速查找虛擬賬號所屬的第三方支付業者。這個平台自113年3月上線後檢警調單位已可由平台直接查詢並通知以完成登錄之第三方支付業者。如果民眾遭到詐騙報案檢警"},{"start":3157.552,"end":3171.601,"text":"調單位在確認虛擬帳號所屬第三方支付業者後可加速通知銀行捐存受詐民眾的款項整體流程由原本的7到30天已經縮短到1至3天截至113年7月3日"},{"start":3174.842,"end":3189.811,"text":"累計的查詢量已經有19940筆平台上線後縮短查詢時間已有效協助檢警調單位辦案加速圈存受詐款項降低民眾損失另外為鼓勵金融業"},{"start":3191.705,"end":3215.692,"text":"金融科技相關服務業者積極投入創新科技研究應用藉由AI領航計劃的補助與輔導機制提供資源鏈結協助潛力廠商所研發產品或解決方案成功落地商轉及擴散國內場域解決產業問題例如面對詐騙猖獗需要由金融科技業者運用AI開發防詐"},{"start":3217.759,"end":3237.085,"text":"打炸之工具本部AI領航企劃補助臺北富邦銀行臺灣大哥大以及網威智慧等業者將AI應用於金融場景防炸總而言之數法部透過對於第三方支付業者的管理與輔導建立安全可信賴的第三方支付"},{"start":3238.362,"end":3252.07,"text":"服務業生態並鼓勵業者創新開發將數位科技應用於金融領域共同促進健全金融科技創新應用發展以上報告 敬請指教謝謝各位委員的聆聽與指教"},{"start":3289.122,"end":3310.482,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請金管會彭主委還有央行的楊總裁有請彭主委楊總裁主委你好總裁你好主委我首先問你兩三個問題第一個我想我們都知道現在台股差不多24000點上下那"},{"start":3315.63,"end":3325.306,"text":"因為下半年開始變數會比較大因為美國大選還有美國即將要降息主委你有什麼看法?"},{"start":3327.108,"end":3354.976,"text":"報告委員陳蒙林上次有詢問過我們金管會是市場主管機關我們對市場會密切關注剛剛你提到確實我們有很多的外界會提到就是說這兩個因素是影響台股一個因素我想我們還是會密切的關注密切關注那你認為對我們的整個基本面會不會受到有一些就是因為大選啊因為它變數很大"},{"start":3356.696,"end":3364.379,"text":"包括降息因您在金融業您的專業您有沒有什麼想法跟看法?另外我再請教"},{"start":3385.373,"end":3407.205,"text":"那個主委因為工商協定會這個吳東亮董事長他不是有帶一些企業尤其是金融業去拜訪你那因為他們當然也希望說這個金融能夠整併來壯大整個金融的產業那那個"},{"start":3408.376,"end":3435.89,"text":"彭主任,你有什麼看法呢?是,包委員其實昨天工商協定會確實他有帶領在11位的李監事來針對他們的建言白皮書有關金融產業的建言部分提出非常廣泛的意見其實剛剛委員您剛剛指示的有關金融整併只是其中一小部分他們討論的範圍非常非常廣這個報告書我想工商協定會他在裡面的這些資料應該都是公開的"},{"start":3436.57,"end":3436.71,"text":"我來請教楊總裁來"},{"start":3455.445,"end":3481.963,"text":"總裁我請教因為卓榮泰院長說考量台灣近年來整個經濟穩定成長再加上政府必須要拼經濟因此明年軍工教薪資的待遇將往合理的方向來調升當然同時也希望民間企業能夠更進加薪總裁主計總數曾估算軍工教"},{"start":3483.646,"end":3511.125,"text":"每條薪1%差不多要差不多70億左右的預算條薪4%差不多要匡列將近300億左右上下請問總裁對於行政院條薪你有什麼樣的看法我覺得如果說政府第一個經濟成長如果說穩定的成長這是第一個第二個政府的財稅"},{"start":3513.221,"end":3523.23,"text":"所以說他足夠來應付這個我覺得這兩個如果加起來的話那應該就是合理要加薪因為齁這一段時間講實在話物價通膨那是那當然也就是說社會上沒錯"},{"start":3530.296,"end":3544.433,"text":"過去所調的這些薪水都給通膨吃掉所以說很多民眾其實他們沒有受到一點好處尤其民間業者有的企業是沒有加薪但是"},{"start":3545.354,"end":3569.171,"text":"政府當然希望能夠做一個帶動起頭的作用沒有錯那現在已經7月初了卓院長的指示相關部會是不是要啟動明年金工教整個調薪的作業差不多7月底會定案那我請問總裁你認為這次調薪是考慮目前整個物價上漲的弧度所以說做出調薪的比例"},{"start":3569.851,"end":3593.886,"text":"這樣的一個決策嗎?因您的看法我想這個也是其中的因素之一不過我還是剛剛在講的就是說第一個如果說我們經濟成長穩定成長然後第二個你的稅收我們的稅收如果說稅收兩方面都往正的那如果說這個都這些三個因素都加起來的話那應該總裁說說你也贊成應該要"},{"start":3596.528,"end":3614.641,"text":"要適度的再講是是是沒有錯是好那這個總裁因為臺灣消費者物價指數CPI已經連續三年喔都超過百分之二對於外界習慣你百分之二作為通膨警戒線上個禮拜財政組總執行時你說臺灣應該要採取彈性的物價穩定定義比較妥適但是本席一直認為說這個通膨警戒"},{"start":3625.729,"end":3651.406,"text":"成為變動指數政府跟民間預測機構各說各話那我請問總裁彈性通能警戒線的CPI適合作為調心參考的依據嗎一您看我跟委員報告當然以目前的情況來看因為現在就是說陳柔委員在講就是說我們連續已經是三年都是百分之二"},{"start":3652.027,"end":3657.962,"text":"所以現在你看看各個國家當前的一個目標就是要把這個通膨"},{"start":3659.485,"end":3688.119,"text":"就要把它控制在2%甚至這以下那至於我在講的就是說是small open就是說我們的小額開放的經濟體呢要比較有彈性這個是屬於比較中長期的當然我現在就是在講在強調的就是說因為我們目前呢是就連續三年都超過2%所以應該目前是以控制在2%目前的工作呢是以控制在2%以下作為主要的目標"},{"start":3689.019,"end":3693.022,"text":"總裁,媒體報導目前籌編明年的整個預算在政府財政狀況方面稅收年年超徵"},{"start":3717.521,"end":3728.209,"text":"今年稅收表現也不錯對於軍工教加薪將是有力來支撐今年二月足跡總署公布2023年薪資統計的一個結果因為去年通膨率達到2.5%創下近15年來次高第二高"},{"start":3736.836,"end":3756.45,"text":"那物價漲幅吃掉薪水不論是每個人每個月經常性的薪資或總薪資都呈現負成長那我請問總裁你認為明年金工教條新會不會依舊出現物價漲幅吃掉薪水甚至於薪水負成長的這種情況"},{"start":3759.472,"end":3784.749,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說軍工教的調薪跟基本工資的調薪它對於物價的影響比較小因為基本工資的調漲會涉及到你的那個就是說我們中小企業這些的商家他把那個價格把工資轉嫁到那個價格去"},{"start":3785.769,"end":3811.266,"text":"那軍工教的這個比較不會他就沒有這樣的一個沒有這樣的狀況所以他的一個impact他的一個衝擊呢會比較小很小比較小那個總裁甚至有學者啊譬如說現況考良明年軍工教調薪恐怕陷入了薪資物價螺旋式的上漲這種惡性的循環發生所謂的通膨螺旋那我請問總裁你認為"},{"start":3813.487,"end":3836.337,"text":"這樣的紀律會不會發生?我想他講的就是說是在一個比較比較特殊的情況像歐洲他也是也就也在提到這個ECB也提到這樣的一個概念那事實上我總覺得是在學理上是有這樣的一個概率不過就目前來講的話臺灣應該是應該我個人的判斷應該是比較不會發生"},{"start":3842.099,"end":3863.849,"text":"我們希望不會發生的。央行透過指定銀行選定特定範圍的店家和民眾準備在安全可控原則下來進行小規模試點來逐步打造央行數位貨幣CBDC的生態體系那我請問總裁維持傳統貨幣體系雙層式的架構的運作模式你認為對於央行數位貨幣生態體系朝向普及化"},{"start":3871.812,"end":3897.523,"text":"有沒有幫助我想這是我們的目標當然就是說我們希望是在現行的傳統的一個支付體系裡面CPTC的加入能夠更讓這個體系能夠更普及化然後更健全對貨幣的體系能夠更穩定這是我們的目標當然我們現在還是在往前的來推進"},{"start":3899.224,"end":3916.598,"text":"總裁,你說如果經過審慎評估認為有推行四點計畫的必要逐步來打造CBDC生態體系那我請問四點計畫是不是有規劃找出客戶隱私權一律的模式?對對對,這個在我們都會有考慮到,我們都會考慮到"},{"start":3921.041,"end":3948.836,"text":"因為四年計畫到底有沒有規劃防詐交易的這些模式是 這個都會有都會納進去因為我認為這個很重要因為你不要因為現在詐騙到處都是而且很嚴重那這個當然我們事前有規劃有想到的一定要事前去籌劃去杜絕好不好是好 謝謝謝謝您的副委員的質詢接著我們請嚴匡衡委員質詢"},{"start":3959.636,"end":3964.647,"text":"主席、各位練習官員、主席我想先請央行楊總裁要請楊總裁"},{"start":3976.781,"end":3999.29,"text":"總裁早CBDC就是數位版的國家貨幣那就是說由我們中央銀行來創建一種數位形式的法定貨幣透過發行跟流通那相較於我們習慣以紙鈔或者是硬幣的方式來進行交易那我想"},{"start":4001.831,"end":4012.543,"text":"數位貨幣不僅僅只是一個對傳統貨幣的一種技術革新那也是一種對貨幣體系本質的一個重新思考但是民眾現在對於數位貨幣"},{"start":4015.29,"end":4035.197,"text":"有很大的一個距離感因為甚至於說就是懷疑這是不是又是一種詐騙的手法因為我們台灣所處的環境這個詐騙輸出變成一個非常在國際上這個詐騙的手法台灣變成是一個輸出的一個國度那這實在是很不好"},{"start":4037.678,"end":4054.008,"text":"請教楊總裁你認為說發行數位貨幣的動機跟目標是什麼那動機呢當然有兩個重點就是說我們是不是能夠降低金融交易的成本那民眾的成本那提升金融體系的安全性跟穩定性就這兩個部分 對"},{"start":4055.449,"end":4083.096,"text":"這是我們的目標啦當然就是說我們CBDC要來朝這個方向來走就是這個就是我們的目標第一個要好用第二個要能夠降低成本第三個能夠增加創新這是我們的目標啦那當然這個目標要達成恐怕也要花一點時間包括剛剛委員講得很好就是說這個大家的認知也不是說很清楚而且恐怕這個就是一個詐騙的一個工具"},{"start":4085.036,"end":4111.937,"text":"這個都是我們必須要去溝通的溝通的一個項目要透過說明啦要透過說明溝通的一種能夠深切能夠了解委員說得沒有錯再提到就是說你正在跟數位部這個洽談合作就是政府機關來開發數位券那現在基本上都是已經萬事俱備了那你們評估的結果是什麼時候要來做這樣子的一個發行"},{"start":4113.898,"end":4140.373,"text":"是,我是不是請我的同事來回答這個問題,可以嗎?好,很快現在我們報告目前我們跟這個數位發展部在洽談合作的計畫但原則上如果說整個的行程順利的話應該是在今年底或明年初可能會請數位發展部這邊找一個相關的部門先來做一個試營運今年底或明年初這樣"},{"start":4142.314,"end":4160.27,"text":"我再請教總裁CBDC你說它不是國際競賽也不是說先發就有優勢但是你也提到說沒有時間表那你可不可以更明確一點你的報告裡面"},{"start":4164.451,"end":4186.361,"text":"你要告訴我們什麼?CPTC什麼時候在台灣可以上路?我想是這樣就是說CPTC這是全球其他的國家也都是在試驗當然我們也就是說台灣在做這樣的一個試驗的工程的時候我們也要看看其他國家它是不是比較先進"},{"start":4188.302,"end":4194.985,"text":"有哪些我們可以來學習的CBDC到最後我們到最後的那個part就是說在wholesale在那個就是說它的那個批發型的那個部分它的功能會更大那這個就是說你要看看國際發展的趨勢是怎麼樣因為它會到時候會cross-border就是說會那個什麼區域的一個跨境的一個交換"},{"start":4216.694,"end":4220.772,"text":"那這個就是說也要看看國際發展的趨勢是怎麼樣"},{"start":4222.225,"end":4249.099,"text":"所以也就不是說你來發展那你自己在那邊自己做自己做外面好像也沒有就是說進展的時候自己做自己在那邊試驗好像功能也不是很好所以我們要來看看國際發展的將來是不是要花費更多的錢更多的預算來做大量的一個技術跟人力的投入才有辦法這個技術大概也是要花多少錢這個還"},{"start":4252.08,"end":4253.561,"text":"來財經公司來跟我們說一下"},{"start":4281.345,"end":4308.012,"text":"不是啊,應該你要告訴我們就是說CPTC如果未來上路之後那以你的設計一年需要花多少的預算、人力來做這個整個技術的設置呢?我想呢,報告委員現在到目前還沒有做這樣很精細的一個規劃還沒有,為什麼?因為你還是在試驗的階段嘛如果說我已經確定了"},{"start":4308.692,"end":4324.097,"text":"我就是往前推了說那時候就已經就是說你的整個規模是怎麼樣你每年要編多少預算這個都是要按照那個什麼預算的程序下去編的所以呢到目前為止還沒有還沒有要做啦對對對現在是還是在試驗的階段啦"},{"start":4329.699,"end":4331.861,"text":"所以還沒有到達委員現在所講的"},{"start":4360.139,"end":4387.792,"text":"那想要請教總裁就是說我們央行有沒有預估什麼時候會降息?這個到目前的民眾最關心的?對當然當然我還是在以前我也就是說在回答這個問題的時候我就說我們的情況跟美國的情況是不太一樣但是就是說整個降息的這是整個如果說是全球都是在降息他spill over他"},{"start":4388.956,"end":4408.24,"text":"他就是說是外溢到臺灣的情況來當然我的意思就是說我們臺灣的一個情況升息降息都要看國際的情況是怎麼樣我們內部我們臺灣目前自己的一個情況是怎麼然後是由理事會來決定到現在為止都還沒有這樣的一個規劃"},{"start":4418.26,"end":4444.299,"text":"這個房貸族壓力非常大當然我想報告委員就是說利息這個價格它影響的層面也不是只有房地產它也會影響到我們的企業也會影響到我們的個人這些都會所以整個利息的一個利率的決策不是只有光看房地產"},{"start":4446.564,"end":4449.146,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝楊總裁我們再請金管會主委有請彭主委"},{"start":4458.132,"end":4482.317,"text":"委員好 彭主任你好那今晚會的報告裡面說台灣為了運營無現金社會的這個到來所以朝向2025年要達到這種行動支付90%的目標啦 對不對那這邊有提到說要成立金融市場管理處創新啦創新管理處"},{"start":4483.337,"end":4490.901,"text":"那這樣子在金融科技園區臺灣的金融科技園區跟馬來西亞金融科技協會簽訂了MOU馬來西亞的數位經濟局舉辦這個臺灣金融科技發表日然後加速媒合這個產創的一個商機"},{"start":4504.408,"end":4523.444,"text":"這個對接當地的生態園區域的資源然後拓展臺灣金融科技海外版圖那請教主委這項MOU的內容能不能時間有限這很簡單的說一下這點可不可以請我們那個那個我們負責規劃中規處的同仁跟委員做個說明謝謝拜託一下時間"},{"start":4526.095,"end":4536.351,"text":"是跟委員報告那個是我們創新園區跟這個馬來西亞這邊所簽署的我們這邊沒有沒有掌握他們的那個簽署的內容我們會後可以再跟他要"},{"start":4537.146,"end":4554.101,"text":"好那資料會後再補充給我謝謝我們會再補充資料給委員金融科技會帶來更高效更便捷的一個金融服務同時也會促進這個金融市場的一個競爭跟創新行動支付、虛擬銀行、P2P、網路借貸等等這些"},{"start":4557.523,"end":4575.831,"text":"這個法規跟監管制度上面除了提供更多的便利跟支持但是在法規跟監管的部分也必須要更加的謹慎所以你現在你認為現行的金融科技發展與創新這個實驗條例有沒有需要再做調整"},{"start":4576.371,"end":4576.851,"text":"主席,麻煩企業行楊總裁"},{"start":4606.124,"end":4607.005,"text":"有請楊總裁吳委員早楊總裁我們今天一直在談的這個數位貨幣他的定義是怎麼樣"},{"start":4621.54,"end":4636.854,"text":"數位貨幣就是說把我們最簡單的就是說把我們現在目前的這是要兩個層次的第一個我們把我們的現在的現金把它數位化"},{"start":4638.061,"end":4652.702,"text":"那現金數位化之後那個現金還要不要再發行?那當然如果說假設假設他我們CPTC零售型的CPTC把它開始發行的時候當然我們的現金還是依然要發行"},{"start":4653.683,"end":4670.491,"text":"所以你印出來的現金存起來假設我印了一兆的現金存起來然後我相對應一兆的數位貨幣是不是這樣子不是這樣子而是說我們的現金也是在流通那數位貨幣我知道當然雙軌現金可以流通但是數位貨幣的印行後面"},{"start":4679.074,"end":4702.341,"text":"所以要有實體貨幣?對,對,我問得很好就是說事實上呢我們的現金基本上銀行現在所跟中央銀行領取現金的這個都是要透過他的存款準備金那邊去多轉的所以也就是說我們的CBDC呢它的背後就是存款準備金"},{"start":4703.464,"end":4718.092,"text":"喔 要存款準備金那這樣的話呢我要發出去的時候呢我的他用存款準備金來跟我互換跟現在的現金的那個什麼的流通是一樣的沒有給他的現金你央行要準備著嘛要存放著嘛不然的話你"},{"start":4718.712,"end":4736.281,"text":"我的意思是說你的數位貨幣後面要錨定在現金上面嗎?現的現鈔上面嗎?委員這個也是一個問題不過我再更進一步的講事實上我們的現金以前我們都一直在報告我們的現金它背後都是有準備"},{"start":4737.694,"end":4758.624,"text":"那我們的準備是什麼?我們準備是兩種,第一個就是黃金,第二個就是我們的外匯存底那所以呢,也就是說我們的現金的發行是採始祖的準備那始祖的準備呢,我有黃金,我有外匯存底做我發行現金總裁,這個我了解,但是問題是像現在美國他已經不這樣採"},{"start":4761.125,"end":4777.479,"text":"他應該他不是100%他已經沒有跟隨著他儲存的黃金這支板去印鈔還是100%我跟你講中國更嚴重喔中國現在有一個名詞叫做無毛印鈔啊沒有毛錠啊隨便他印啊這通貨即將要大幅膨脹的一種"},{"start":4780.038,"end":4804.679,"text":"貨幣要巨額貶值的一種前兆啊我跟委員報告台灣目前還是百分之百發行準備那我的意思是說所以這個邏輯這樣推起來我認定目前的數位貨幣要錨定在我所有的現金上假設我發行一兆的數位貨幣我要儲存有一兆的現金嘛當然你說那個現金我可以不要用現金我可以用黃金我可以用債券這我同意"},{"start":4805.56,"end":4814.623,"text":"那就是要矛盾總共的貨幣額沒有隨便增加應該是這樣的概念所以數位貨幣不是數字貨幣啦因為中國現在實驗數字貨幣啊他連這個實體的東西完全都不要啦"},{"start":4824.487,"end":4849.986,"text":"是不是會有這個問題所以是數位貨幣是數字貨幣要弄清楚有些時候他們是習慣用數字貨幣那這個可能當然也會有些時候會搞不清楚因為這個就是說就像一個外國的名字在翻譯的時候在翻譯的時候有的是翻這樣有的是翻這樣也沒有一個共同的標準"},{"start":4850.586,"end":4855.346,"text":"那現在另外一個問題你要發行數位貨幣使用者對於"},{"start":4856.704,"end":4881.959,"text":"像我們這個最直接的一般在社會上活動的人在用錢的時候你要尊重沒有能力使用數位貨幣或是沒有意願使用數位貨幣的人這個如何保障他們的權益沒錯啊所以我才會就是說在如果說我們是決定這個CPTC也要推出去了之後呢事實上現金還是會留存的我就說"},{"start":4882.879,"end":4909.13,"text":"我舉例喔已經有我的朋友去日本觀光回來跟我講說日本有的店不能用現金了全部都是要用Pay的他覺得非常不方便坦白講很不爽啦那我一直跟他講說暫時安慰他說那這樣子的店你就不要去消費嘛所以他去日本觀光的時候他能夠選擇的店家就變少了當然會影響到他的權益啊"},{"start":4909.99,"end":4910.01,"text":"對啦"},{"start":4940.45,"end":4968.35,"text":"委員講的事實上我們也都考慮到了所以這個才會我們就說在我們推動的過程當中呢我們是漸進式的啦也就是說委員講的沒有錯這個就是我的習慣如果說大家的習慣都已經都改變的話呢那好那CPTC這個可以就是說單獨黃那個現金呢他就會慢慢慢慢的退到退到旁邊去了"},{"start":4969.19,"end":4984.409,"text":"我們擔心的是當現有的貨幣慢慢推到旁邊去的時候不能夠為了多數人可以使用CDBC數位貨幣就去忽略那少數人不願意使用數位貨幣的權益"},{"start":4986.732,"end":5011.468,"text":"我想就中央銀行的一個立場來講的話這個我們會考量我們不會用強迫式的自由的經濟體系不能用強迫式的我跟您提醒我再講一個數字當然數字不見得很準確中國的觀光客據入境人數講大概少掉九成多了那當然理由很多了"},{"start":5012.268,"end":5028.954,"text":"其中有一個很重要的理由是他在那個地方支付系統外國的觀光客怎麼會用你中國的支付系統結果去了中國中國的店家全部都是用這種電子支付啊全部都是網用手機掃啊啊使得觀光客在那邊沒辦法消費啊"},{"start":5030.854,"end":5054.785,"text":"這也是使得他的觀光客大幅下葬的一個重要的原因這個我是希望說是無論是金管會或是無論是央行無論是財政部在考慮這些事情的時候要面面俱到我們贊成你去發展但是同時必須要保留不願意使用的人他的權益不讓有一天說九成的人都已經要用數位貨幣了你那一成的人你自己該死或是讓店家給你加錢"},{"start":5056.703,"end":5071.115,"text":"這樣子的心態是不能接受的我覺得委員講的都沒有錯我們也有考量到這一點所以我們就說我們的推動是漸進式的好那最後再跟請教一個事情2019年的8月15號我們境外資金匯回專法規定"},{"start":5076.019,"end":5091.744,"text":"綁的時間是5年嘛那到今年的8月5年就期滿了那當然有一些資金已經投資廠商的有一些投資製造業的有一些資金已經用到哪邊去了但是還有一部分的資金喔解禁之後它可以進入不動產市場"},{"start":5094.586,"end":5118.101,"text":"我想我跟委員報告針對這個議題事實上我們也有發布新聞稿去說明基本上到目前為止還沒有動用的是1380億那這個它是要分三年那分三年以後它才能夠分三年的話大概一年大概400多億那400多億它可以投資國內外"},{"start":5120.242,"end":5146.559,"text":"他可以投資國內外所以這也就是說這個400多億也不是說全部他都會到房地產去他是會分散的他的投資因為投資的管道他也可以實質投資啊他也可以金融投資啊股票啊他也可以到國外去啊這都可以啊也不是說他這個400多億所以意思說你不是很擔心就對了我覺得也應該就是說他是分散的當時的規劃就有考慮到這一點"},{"start":5149.241,"end":5178.141,"text":"好謝謝您的說明麻煩請你回座請金管會彭主委有請彭主委你好彭主委中國的金融巨變我看迫在眉睫尤其是昨天美國共和黨的黨綱裡面已經規定如果川普當選之後對中國要什麼樣的動作這裡面當然包括香港那所以現在有一些西方的這些金融業者在香港準備要"},{"start":5179.245,"end":5179.266,"text":"到"},{"start":5180.379,"end":5210.159,"text":"所以南京就要出逃啦講好第一點說是要轉到別的地方啦我覺得台灣應該是一個有機會可以吸引的地方我們能不能夠構築一個比較好的環境來去爭取這一個機會呢我們正在研究這個我們增加我們誘因的這樣一個機制在我們整個未來建構成為資產管理中心一個很重要的點那這個速度要快喔因為我看這個巨變如果速度如果沒有如果假設川普當選的話這個巨變搞不好半年一年就來了"},{"start":5210.82,"end":5211.42,"text":"謝謝吳秉潤委員質詢接著我們請賴世寶委員質詢"},{"start":5249.362,"end":5255.367,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請楊總裁我先請教一下喔現在股市天天漲天天漲這個外界大家都知道嘛這個股市漲房市就更是漲"},{"start":5276.568,"end":5285.785,"text":"這個你會不會擔心這個股市賺到錢轉到房市來又帶動房市的新一波的上漲會不會擔心這個事情"},{"start":5288.555,"end":5308.872,"text":"我想委員所講的這個都是有可能啦那基於就是說是一個行政院所推出來的一個健全房地產方案我想這個是也是大家要共同各部會要共同要去注意密切注意的事情"},{"start":5309.983,"end":5320.593,"text":"我們會密切注意特別就是說從去年8月以後到目前為止到我們的第一季我們也都是隨時在密切的注意當中"},{"start":5331.784,"end":5335.407,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說通膨的這個議題慢慢它是緩和下來了它是緩和下來了如果說我們是從這個CPI"},{"start":5359.05,"end":5377.949,"text":"我想我跟委員報告當然就是說我們前三年都有超過2%不過我們如果說我們來看我們的core CPI就是核心CPI現在核心CPI已經是慢慢的都已經降到2%以下了"},{"start":5379.823,"end":5391.848,"text":"所以我可以講一句話說央行不排除進一步的對於通貨的緊縮的一個做法有可能"},{"start":5394.925,"end":5413.633,"text":"委員如果說按照委員他你的想法的話呢你的解讀的話呢我想每一個人都可以解讀啦不過如果說從中央銀行的立場我們要來說我們要說我們密切注意我們滾動式的檢討我們要該做的時候呢我們要該做"},{"start":5419.117,"end":5441.699,"text":"這個中央銀行的職責就是金融穩定嘛那金融穩定我也一直在講就是說這個房價房價事實上我們是觀察我們是密切注意房價但是房價不是在我們的中央銀行法的一個經營目標裡面我們中央銀行法的經營目標是什麼是金融穩定"},{"start":5442.279,"end":5444.241,"text":"現在房市有沒有泡沫的危機?有沒有?有沒有?"},{"start":5472.323,"end":5498.486,"text":"我跟委員報告我們觀察兩個指標第一個指標就是說NPLNPL就是一個待賬率但是待賬率是很低很好啦NPLNPL是很好但是一般都認為說他是落後指標他是落後指標所以我們要更精進我們做什麼呢我們做Straight Test"},{"start":5499.363,"end":5518.721,"text":"我們做壓力測試基本上都通過了是吧壓力測試我們在去年的我們在3月的時候理監事會的時候我們就有向理事報告我們6月份的時候我們理監事會的時候我們也有跟理事報告"},{"start":5520.168,"end":5542.386,"text":"那到目前為止呢我們認為就是說我們如果說它發生巨變的時候呢我們的銀行體系還能夠承受它的一個我問你今天題目啊這個銀行數位貨幣啊這個能不能有個時間表什麼時候可以正式上路說"},{"start":5548.927,"end":5560.069,"text":"我跟委員報告,事實上我們到目前為止還是在往前推動往前進步你從2019年就開始推動了,到現在你還股不股不股,這個要謹慎一個貨幣的改革必須要謹慎"},{"start":5567.971,"end":5577.335,"text":"我只能回答說在我們可看見的未來現金還是會存在的"},{"start":5587.959,"end":5603.485,"text":"你至少可以找一個很大聲的結論我只能這樣說啊因為如果說那很久很久以後的事情我覺得我沒有那個vision我沒有那樣的那個天眼通至少你可以講一句話吧那個總裁在楊金龍任內絕對不會沒有現金對對對這個我可以保證在我的任內現金還是會留存"},{"start":5613.729,"end":5614.369,"text":"這個虛擬貨幣到底它是不是貨幣啊?"},{"start":5632.238,"end":5649.424,"text":"虛擬貨幣事實上現在所以也就是說剛剛我在講就是說這個定義這個翻譯有些時候就是說因為我們所說的虛擬貨幣事實上他們就說在英文他說虛擬通貨事實上虛擬通貨好像是偶爾總結那是在騙人的"},{"start":5654.873,"end":5656.274,"text":"有請彭主委跟林智"},{"start":5689.032,"end":5697.795,"text":"請教兩位長官這是金管會講的吧說詐騙24小時下架還是數碼不講的結果我的FB被騙了盜用結果7月1日我檢舉7月3日兩天以後才下架這是誰管的"},{"start":5714.229,"end":5715.95,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":5735.879,"end":5754.497,"text":"在數發部我們這邊就成立了一個公眾人物打造專用郵箱就是對一些公眾人物包含委員您以後如果遇到這種狀況的話可以跟我們通知由我們這邊來直接向那個META來反映請他們儘速下架做不到就不要講24小時下架你可以講一個48小時72小時比較好講24小時下架結果都是假的"},{"start":5760.642,"end":5760.863,"text":"虛擬貨幣剛才楊總裁講說它是資產"},{"start":5778.817,"end":5800.073,"text":"也有人把他視為避難的資產現在美國FBI資產報告提出來2021到2022損失4300萬美金這個經過會對於有關於虛擬貨幣的這些交易造成了一些困擾紛爭你們怎麼處理啊"},{"start":5801.294,"end":5828.833,"text":"現在就是我們對於這個我們最近有兩個部分一個是從洗錢防治一個在打詐的部分我們已經把那個虛擬資產這個已經匡列在我們的對象裡面當然洗錢是最快這是打詐裡面的帳戶管理的部分我們也把虛擬資產的業者已經放在我們的打詐專法裡面我再請教這個三家存網銀在3月底的時候接近大概虧損接近60億元"},{"start":5830.848,"end":5857.654,"text":"未來還可能增加網銀的數目嗎?現在其實這是一個市場機制不過就是大家對一些所謂的digital insurer或digital banking的這個獲利的pattern大家都有一定有個想法就是說一個銀行剛開始的時候建資成本很高並不見得一開始用獲利來衡量它我們也看到這三家存網銀確實在財報數字是這樣但他們已經有開始呈現出就是改善的一個"},{"start":5858.194,"end":5879.85,"text":"因為這是今天講到金融科技科技金融很重要的一環囉所以你的態度就是說即便他們虧損可是為了這一塊如果有人要申請你們也是開放是不是這個意思其實我們對市場來講我們尊重市場機制對所以我們其實這些門我們並沒有關掉我聽說金融元氣業你們要換人的是吧"},{"start":5881.228,"end":5903.929,"text":"這是有任期制各個各個組織都有都有他的任期制確定換人他的任期到了現在確定換人現在人是就是蘇建隆走了要離開了沒有他們應該是在9月才會到期啦我想這部分還有還有一段時間還有F4也要換人有這樣什麼他們會按照我們的制度就是他們有任期到好最後一小題了這個主席再給我定點時間最後一小題了"},{"start":5905.475,"end":5931.167,"text":"有一個暗網請那個數位部認真看喔虛擬通貨有個暗網叫做幣有個平台的幣托平台你這樣上去然後你就可以通過它去買這些台灣你看台灣股票台灣證券台灣股民100萬的全格式去買然後就被騙了這個有沒有法可以管有沒有技術可以管你知道這個事嗎暗網"},{"start":5934.873,"end":5957.781,"text":"根委員報告,依我的瞭解目前並沒有法律可以管到這個地方,因為像這樣子的案網他的那個server通常是設在國外那這些所有的他成立協會還有理事長,成立協會還有理事長是不是,所以他大大大在那裡你們說沒得管了沒有法可以管了"},{"start":5959.019,"end":5985.209,"text":"我想這個地方是我們整個臺灣不管是行政部門或立法部門都必須通力合作想辦法來管理這樣的問題事實上世界各個國家對這種這種暗網這種交易都覺得非常的困難因為他這個他的那個交易發生的地點事實上是在internet上面那有的像是這種加密貨幣的話根本就沒有在固定一個國家因為他是完全去中心化的"},{"start":5985.789,"end":6008.8,"text":"所以到底是哪一個國家有這個管理所以你的意思就沒辦法管?是,現在全世界所有的國家都沒辦法管現在就是說我們可以管的是這個虛擬貨幣的交易所而不是虛擬貨幣本身因為虛擬貨幣本身是完全去中心化的但是虛擬貨幣的交易所是有它的運作的地點你們管得到嗎?"},{"start":6009.991,"end":6012.312,"text":"其實剛剛次長其實講得很清楚這是全世界大家對於這個網路國界對於這個數位資產一個很重要的盲點我在前面幾次"},{"start":6032.657,"end":6043.857,"text":"也有跟幾位委員報告這個問題就是特別對一些境外還有像這種不是我們現在已經做機構管理納管的部分確實我們要想其他的辦法來好好處理"},{"start":6045.187,"end":6045.367,"text":"謝謝,謝謝委員執政"},{"start":6083.135,"end":6084.939,"text":"謝謝主席,有請央行總裁有請楊總裁"},{"start":6095.775,"end":6119.729,"text":"楊總裁隨著疫情發展現在國際上對於數位貨幣那麼他們已經轉去很積極的態度當然數位貨幣它的好處非常多比方說監管容易可以追蹤交易記錄那會減少違必偽鈔這些事實上是有它的功能那麼我認為說"},{"start":6122.335,"end":6136.457,"text":"我們央行至少態度要很精確就是至少在數位貨幣這一塊我們到底做不做那是不是我們要確定這個態度而且要有時間表那您列的說這個"},{"start":6137.959,"end":6139.421,"text":"所以我今天要問你的就兩個問題"},{"start":6156.061,"end":6182.171,"text":"就是說第一點我們央行在數位貨幣的這個部分我們編列了多少預算來推動第二個我們央行到底對數位貨幣有沒有時間表比方說3年前央行說啊這個數位貨幣我們這樣推動大概10年的時間可以達成現在在你今天的這份報告裡面你說這個事實上這個"},{"start":6185.657,"end":6185.737,"text":"我第一個就說"},{"start":6213.894,"end":6230.467,"text":"在目前為止在目前為止的話我們還沒有編列很大的預算去做因為為什麼因為這個目前的一個這個這個雛形的平台呢都是我們"},{"start":6231.408,"end":6255.877,"text":"目前我們央行本身的預算都可以吸納的還有財經公司的預算都可以吸納它這個呢因為它本來它CPTC它是零售的零售的話像財經公司來講的話它本身就是零售的所以它就可以吸納了所以你說在我們央行現行的預算沒有沒有我們到目前就可以來注意來支付就對了我們沒有一向說"},{"start":6256.897,"end":6269.484,"text":"特定的就是說我們推動這個CBDC的這個我們要多少錢還沒有還沒有還沒有那你們的態度跟時間表是什麼那就是說這個第一個被問到了才來提好那剛剛我跟這個至於就是時間表這個問題我就說我很強調的就是說也要看國際發展的情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":6284.213,"end":6293.981,"text":"因為CBDC這個不是只有在國內而已,我們的貨幣是要跨境的,要跟國際接軌,如果說國際都沒有的話,那你時間表假如說我跟委員報告,我說我們五年就要做到了"},{"start":6303.368,"end":6315.473,"text":"但是國際上他也沒有啊因為現在我也跟委員報告很誠實的跟委員報告事實上基本上在國際大部分的先進國家他們也沒有時間表"},{"start":6318.004,"end":6338.758,"text":"那在這種情況之下呢 那我要跟委員報告就是說等到我們往前推 我們還是有啊 我們在推啊 我們還是積極的推啊到某一個時點的時候呢 好像這個時機很成熟的時候 那總裁你的意思就是說事實上數位貨幣的推動 它的進程跟它的時間表你們是"},{"start":6339.378,"end":6340.099,"text":"有請彭主委"},{"start":6363.724,"end":6388.678,"text":"喂好彭主委我蠻失望的你正式回給我的答覆就是說我要求我們金管會應該負起責任做到兩點第一點對於現在租賃公司他造成的社會亂象跟對貸款需求的民眾對他們的危害這些我認為金管會第一點要負起這個責任"},{"start":6390.642,"end":6417.14,"text":"對租賃公司融資公司下去做管理第二個應該立一個融資租賃公司管理法才對結果你給我的答覆裡面我認為融資租賃公司管理法這個部分我認為需要而且刻不容緩結果你的答覆以你的專業你竟然答覆我我照你的答覆念你說現行機制啊"},{"start":6418.081,"end":6440.558,"text":"以及金管會近期的措施已經有處理的機制了第二個你說對於這個租賃公司的管理你說你會持續跟財政部、經濟部、消保會他們保持這部分的聯繫合作那你的答覆是這樣那這個答覆齁"},{"start":6441.947,"end":6464.685,"text":"我完全不能接受我相信社會大多數的民眾在瞭解租賃公司尤其最大的這三家占總租賃融資金額95%的這數條三兄弟對他們的惡行惡狀造成社會的亂象社會是不能接受的所以你這個答覆我不接受"},{"start":6465.885,"end":6493.66,"text":"我不接受你認為就不用管嗎?你說現行機制已經有啦我請問啦現行機制哪一條是我們管得到這些租賃公司的現行機制連金管會你都不用管也管他不到不是嗎現行機制裡面是把租賃公司推給經濟部管結果經濟部管是管他什麼管他公司法"},{"start":6495.584,"end":6500.661,"text":"欸!經濟部公司法管理是管理全國140萬家公司"},{"start":6502.287,"end":6528.408,"text":"所以數條三兄弟一年的營業額超過五六千億以上他只不過140萬分之三天啊我們國家我們最高的監管單位竟然如此的縱容這些二次的租賃公司縱容這數條三兄弟你正是白紙黑字這樣跟我答覆的喔"},{"start":6529.758,"end":6551.696,"text":"我對你本來很多期許我想你學有專精在金融尤其保險這個部分你是非常好的風評結果你今天這樣給我答覆所以在你想一下你再答覆我不接受就對我先請楊總裁楊總裁是"},{"start":6558.149,"end":6569.896,"text":"根據中央銀行法第29條本來中央銀行就可以對像現在這樣子二值的這些融資租賃"},{"start":6571.957,"end":6595.328,"text":"這些二次的條約本來就可以有管理所以你認為應不應該由政府出面交由金管會財政部對融資註定公司立一個專法來管理而且把管理的權責收回金管會加上財政部"},{"start":6596.536,"end":6603.863,"text":"你認為需不需要?對於這個議題,政府在亞洲金融危機之前也有考量到是不是要把它納管"},{"start":6617.176,"end":6642.73,"text":"那結果呢在那個時候呢就是說剛好就是說金融危機發生了以後這個就偏頂在那邊不過呢我總覺得啊委員這樣的話好像就對這個融資公司的一個的那個一個一個授信啊這個好像也是授信啊授信的一個行為呢你覺得就是說不過呢我我想就是說監管會他也他會去好好的去考量他了"},{"start":6642.93,"end":6667.671,"text":"好好的考量那需要考量多久啦?他不只是考量他已經考量結束正式答覆我喔說現行機制就可以管理結果現行機制這數條三兄弟造成社會多大的危害跟亂象深受疾害者尤其青年朋友尤其需要資金的民眾"},{"start":6668.905,"end":6688.948,"text":"那是如何的被數條三兄弟壓榨那那個總裁我另外說我就講為什麼說財政部也要管因為九大公營行庫就是屬財政部管啊九大公營行庫董事長總經理都是財政部長任命的結果你知道嗎九大公營行庫啊"},{"start":6690.475,"end":6718.38,"text":"在這十年間貸款給數條山兄弟就這三家而已喔受信給他的額度高達八千九百二十一億九千億之多然後實質放款給他的四千八百五十四億將近五千億他們低利1.7%的低利貸款給數條山兄弟"},{"start":6719.771,"end":6745.232,"text":"數條三兄弟左手帶第一利1.7%右手放高利貸放給需要的民眾放給青年朋友們我們公營行庫眼睜睜的看著來自社會大眾的資金縱容交給數條三兄弟去吸血吸民眾的血吸青年朋友的血"},{"start":6746.107,"end":6771.459,"text":"眼睜睜地看著他幹這種事這不是縱容嗎而且一而再再而三本席提出要求要管理之後到現在四個月了給我一個答覆說他現行機制就可以管理現行機制是這個樣子耶是這麼惡劣縱容數條三兄弟吸民眾的血"},{"start":6773.143,"end":6776.885,"text":"所以啊我請問啊那個楊總裁還有彭主委啊公營函庫我們公家管理的如果我們讓蜀條三兄弟吸民眾的血你們於心何忍這是我們的同胞耶可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":6800.563,"end":6825.538,"text":"只因為我們需要的這些民眾們青年朋友們他們借貸無門我們政府就讓他們給鼠條三兄弟去剝皮剝三件皮、四件皮去吸他們的血可以這樣嗎所以我要求楊總裁我把金管會主委交給你"},{"start":6826.331,"end":6832.635,"text":"你糾正他這一點根據中央銀行法第29條本來就可以要求他所以彭主任我今天對你非常的失望我本來對你抱以厚望啊我想你新上任啊"},{"start":6842.128,"end":6862.344,"text":"你還保有赤子之心會保護我們多數需要資金的民眾們一個合理的待會結果不是還有那個我抱歉我三四秒齁還有那個總裁抱歉我生氣了三秒鐘一二三好"},{"start":6866.647,"end":6892.529,"text":"另外我要交代給你就是說你要要求金融 剛才提到的房市的泡沫化竟然我們負債比前10名的建設公司負債比都在75%以上 最高的高達88.6%將近9成 這都是會造成房市泡沫化 你看借錢給這些不肖建商"},{"start":6894.065,"end":6895.586,"text":"我把彭主委就交給你啦"},{"start":6924.179,"end":6926.941,"text":"謝謝王世堅委員質詢接著我們請李燕秀委員質詢來我請楊總裁有請楊總裁"},{"start":6958.106,"end":6982.337,"text":"李委員早總裁早安連續一三的一次會我終於有機會問到有關於數位貨幣的議題我看完整個你們的工作報告其實我有12個字可以來形容對於發行數位貨幣央行的態度就是明包暗扁、做法保守"},{"start":6983.217,"end":7010.206,"text":"以拖待變我為什麼會說你們是明包暗扁呢因為你在工作報告裡面有提了央行包括對於數位貨幣包括在很多新進國家其實目前發展的狀況其實都不如預期所以對於CBDC你們的態度是比較審慎的這也凸顯出央行對於到底要不要主動積極推動這個數位貨幣這件事情你們的意願度事實上是不高的"},{"start":7010.926,"end":7035.922,"text":"為什麼我說你做法保守呢因為其實我們仍舊保留銀行作為中介的功能而且初期我們都還是不計利息所以包括在以拖待變的部分為什麼我這麼說因為我們已經做完民調但是相關的一些初期的準備但是甚至是我們要到明年我們才準備要辦第一場公聽會所以"},{"start":7037.883,"end":7056.688,"text":"按照道理說做民調反映的是現在對於推動數位貨幣民間產官學界大家的看法到底是什麼但你要拖到我不知道是不是央行人不夠還是怎麼樣我們要拖到明年我們才打完辦第一場公聽會所以我說我用這12個字送給總裁對於推動這個數位貨幣這件事總裁你覺得委屈嗎"},{"start":7063.29,"end":7090.743,"text":"我想就是說我們要推動CBDC就是說除了除了就是說要對公眾來做比較那個要做一個很明確的一個溝通以外我覺得委員做了這樣的一個做了這樣的一個的評論我也意思認為就是說我們要向委員再做進一步的溝通"},{"start":7092.764,"end":7112.731,"text":"你不用跟我溝通,因為我看你目前做的事情我用了12個字送給你,真的是謝謝因為我們在報告裡面呢,我們也沒辦法講得非常的清楚剛剛我也有提到,就是說CBDC它的主要的功能呢"},{"start":7113.911,"end":7129.452,"text":"其中之一呢就是就是跨境要跨境那如果說我們的CBDC只有在國內做他的效果他的效能他的那個功能我都很清楚這個是如果可以跨國際很多國家大家都可以一起推動未來對對對對對"},{"start":7131.014,"end":7132.615,"text":"我再想齁所以我就說這個要看國際的趨勢是怎樣"},{"start":7154.685,"end":7172.284,"text":"那國際的趨勢假如說國際的趨勢都是是你在等他們啊大家都等來等去不是不是因為不是不是我就說他發行不是因為我剛剛也講了因為他這個CPT到最後的最主要功能也是要去跨境啊跨境的時候就要兩個去兌換啊"},{"start":7174.486,"end":7188.634,"text":"如果說對方沒有的時候我怎麼對話?那你跟國際之間這件事情有在對話嗎?這個BIS我告訴委員 這個我們報告裡面也講BIS也是很在積極的要如何撮合一個平台讓國際之間的CPTC來做一個對話"},{"start":7193.317,"end":7203.813,"text":"總裁,我再問一個問題因為在這個過程當中你指出說銀行要做中介信這個中介信是階段性的還是永久?沒有,它還是永久的"},{"start":7206.653,"end":7223.228,"text":"他不是結論性喔因為我們講的很清楚就是說所以未來如果有機會規劃的話也不會是央行直接推而是一定會透過中介銀行比如像說我後面的第二個part會講到一個代幣化"},{"start":7225.082,"end":7253.552,"text":"貸幣化的意思就是說你一定要存款貸幣化這個要先做了以後央行的一個其他國家會一樣也會是雙城市嗎?一樣的所以我就說這個就是不是說單獨中央銀行來做一做我們就推出來了但是呢最重要的我是覺得所以我們有一個中介這個銀行雙城市的推動最主要是不是擔心銀行體系會有急高如果沒有透過它"},{"start":7254.973,"end":7277.072,"text":"因為就是說你透過銀行的體系的時候比如說像那個Wholesale就是說批發式的你如果說沒有商業銀行的代幣化的時候呢商業銀行的本身它的運作就比較不會有效率"},{"start":7277.893,"end":7278.934,"text":"為什麼你一開始連公聽會都還沒開你就開始決定說初期不計息"},{"start":7294.136,"end":7309.007,"text":"對啊,因為我們先從零售然後再到 wholesale、到批發那零售的話我剛剛也在講啦,零售的很簡單的就是現金的數位化"},{"start":7309.887,"end":7315.452,"text":"會不會降低很多存戶的意願?不會不會,因為你看看我們的現金,難道我們的現金有差距利息嗎?有利息嗎?沒有啊!"},{"start":7326.38,"end":7346.181,"text":"我們存入銀行就沒有利息啊但是那時候商業銀行貨幣他的那個存款他的那個合期存款合期存款還是存款那現金是現金就是說支付他馬上我支付馬上就settle就一手交錢一手交貨"},{"start":7347.122,"end":7360.479,"text":"所以現今我們就說現今的數位化然後沒有不計息但是我們要計息的這個功能要是它是作為貨幣政策的一個工具"},{"start":7361.761,"end":7383.749,"text":"所以當然是應該開始的時候是要我最後問一個問題我們現在在台灣登記的公司好像總共有78.1萬家如果我們發行推動CBDC的話我們有沒有思考過大概建制需要花多少的薪費你有沒有精算過到目前為止還沒有"},{"start":7385.388,"end":7404.633,"text":"所以我為什麼用那12個字送給你?因為其實很清楚的嘛我剛才那12個字其實很清楚的嘛其實就是我覺得一開始你們的態度其實就是對於推動CBDC這件事就是明包暗扁然後你們目前的做法"},{"start":7405.763,"end":7412.406,"text":"我跟各位報告了就是說事實上各個國家主要的中央銀行在推動這個CBDC呢到目前為止大部分都沒有時間表"},{"start":7433.459,"end":7435.84,"text":"主席,我先問一下金管會主委,我簡短一分鐘一下就好了委員好"},{"start":7452.386,"end":7477.658,"text":"主委好我還是要問一下因為剛才我有關注到這兩天工商協定會吳東亮理事長有帶一群理監事一起去看您其中最關鍵的一個問題就是在金融的競爭裡面有一個重點就是提到說目前幾十年來我們的這個金融業佔台灣的GDP的比重大概大概6%左右都在顯然這幾年都沒有顯著的成長"},{"start":7478.698,"end":7507.51,"text":"相較新加坡這幾十年其實金融業的成長都在13%上下左右那也都超過台灣的兩倍甚至是有三家全球百大銀行都是新加坡銀行但是台灣卻一家也沒有那台灣規模最大銀行就是我們自己的台灣銀行在20年前包括台灣、台銀的資產規模其實都比新加坡甚至比新展銀行還要大但這幾年"},{"start":7508.59,"end":7508.77,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":7524.906,"end":7545.719,"text":"市場上均衡的發展對台灣最好但是就金融業而言我們要想辦法打亞洲盃甚至我們要想辦法打世界盃你也提到說我們最大的問題之前我看到你說我們的人才不足在金融業人才不足那我就要請問主委我們人才不足你有沒有想法要怎麼做解決"},{"start":7546.579,"end":7573.102,"text":"因為所有的人都可能跑去高科技產業想去台積電上班想去鴻海上班那你怎麼解決如果做亞洲的資產中心仍舊是你這四年內你來的最主要目標那你怎麼去解決這件事情是謝謝委員剛剛提到大家很喜歡用那個金融產值佔GDP的比重其實跟香港跟新加坡比這個這一點可能要稍微再仔細思考一下因為台灣是有產業等於是我們的分母這個我知道對所以說"},{"start":7574.305,"end":7591.21,"text":"這個指標我們還是希望努力過去台灣金融業雖然保持在6左右實際上主要它跟我們的GDP是同步成長它沒有超額成長我想剛才人才是全世界競爭的那你要怎麼解決對就是說這個東西無論你要打亞洲盃、世界盃、金融業你要做亞洲資產管理中心之一"},{"start":7592.19,"end":7594.931,"text":"所以主委你還是要有解決的方案跟方式報到行政院那邊去讓院長、讓總統知道這件事情我支持你做這件事情但是這個不是嘴巴喊了四年到最後什麼都沒有我要提醒主委"},{"start":7613.956,"end":7616.157,"text":"每個國家在壯大金融市場的做法不同像台灣今年我們大概是"},{"start":7633.382,"end":7652.988,"text":"我們有邁向22年的金控公司各位可以看臺灣幾大金控公司從過去這20年來資產規模整個資產規模擴大大概6到7倍我想這件事情是一個我們的方法可能跟新加坡單純走銀行可能不太一樣那你的方法是什麼沒關係因為時間到了第一個我們持續的強化我們金控"},{"start":7666.721,"end":7669.702,"text":"謝謝主席 有請彭主委沒有 彭主委你直接上來沒關係啦"},{"start":7693.766,"end":7710.886,"text":"主委好主委我想今天請你做專題報告的重點其實在扶植這個金融科技業那在你的報告當中我沒有看到機器人理財我是覺得還有點失望我以為你會以這個為重點因為之前您就已經對外有一些政策宣示一個方向了"},{"start":7711.807,"end":7722.783,"text":"不過以金融科技業的這個定義來看的話透過資訊或網路科技來輔導或者是提升金融服務就是在定義當中可是這樣看起來"},{"start":7724.398,"end":7747.956,"text":"金融科技好像是附屬產業金融的附屬產業它沒有主體性可言感覺上是如此以至於說你看你去處理這個沙盒的部分還是以事辦為主對真正沙盒的部分的加速寥寥無幾這個金管會的心態抱持這樣的情況底下那個科技金融不是金融科技就你的這個定義上是這樣子所以我覺得主委"},{"start":7748.816,"end":7775.297,"text":"金融科技業的扶植很關鍵你一定要把它主體化不是嗎主委請說是報告那個其實我們那個商務實驗條例第18條特別明定金管會負有扶植金融科技業的責任這是法條所明定我們整個金融科技業呢假設用我們市場的區分有所謂的Fintech跟Techfin比如說剛剛委員講的就是應該是講Techfin就是由科技業者"},{"start":7776.097,"end":7802.566,"text":"實行跟金融業務有關的主體是科技業那另外一個Fintech主體是金融業做這個那過去一直都認為說政府的重點都著重在Fintech而沒重在TechfinTechfin最重要的是它能不能創造像國外所謂的獨角獸這個在這個概念其實我們也關注到國際的趨勢國際這兩個金融業跟科技業的合作大概從國際這個Fintech的發展裡面大概"},{"start":7803.386,"end":7821.659,"text":"幾乎絕大多數大概是六七成以上的這個所謂的它是協助金融業去增加效率但是還是有差不多是想要做這個創新的我想這個就是我們未來想要做的我覺得跟你談創新的這個部分我們實在是太落後了啦講白一點我就問你一個嘛"},{"start":7822.059,"end":7842.952,"text":"現在用機器人理財是最流行的嘛以機器人理財有一個人如果假設他用成立一家公司用機器人在進行理財那用自有資金的部分的話那我請問一下這算金融是歸您管的嗎這個如果說他今天是牽涉到比如說對投資的決策規劃那個比如說像我們的投顧啊投信啊他就會做這個事情嘛"},{"start":7843.712,"end":7860.08,"text":"所以這部分如果他去涉及到做這個我們的法定的業務那當然是歸金管會主對但是他目前為止他資金來源也不一樣嘛一個IPO一個是私募一個是自有資產嘛性質善後還不一樣啊我如果是自己的錢我來自己操作呢這還算你管的嗎"},{"start":7862.077,"end":7887.933,"text":"這個當然他是我們通常金融管理委員會主管他是要對不特定大眾提供這樣對,就是大眾資金嘛那問題來了過往其實我們對於這個投薪業者的部分都一定要把他法人化嘛那你現在在推動所謂資產管理中心資產管理中心他就有一個家族辦公室的問題家族辦公室他不想要讓機構掌握的話他就會找所謂的專業投資人嘛也就是CFA嘛那CFA的部分台灣有開放嗎"},{"start":7888.353,"end":7900.088,"text":"台灣有向美國向香港向新加坡當我們想要跟他爭奪競爭業務的情況底下你所謂的個人投信專業的投資人你沒有開放的情況底下你如何帶動這個資產管理中心的發展"},{"start":7901.48,"end":7929.346,"text":"就我的理解現行的架構確實沒有沒有人針對這一塊那你有沒有考慮開放啊這個在我們未來在整個規劃這個所謂的資產管理中心我們會針對各種的課程就個人投信專業投資人家族公司不想要被機構綁架的情況底下他只信任一個個人那個人投資人的這個開放的重要性你如果沒有讓他合法化的話他也可能帶整個家族的資金過來結果你沒有讓他過來那你的資產管理中心怎麼建構"},{"start":7930.531,"end":7944.52,"text":"對這是其中的一塊我們的目標課程裡面很專業的很重要的一塊啊主委所以你們考慮個人投信的部分跟既有的法人投信有一個競合的可能性這個我們會請我們的政期局這邊來你應該好好思考一下對"},{"start":7945.501,"end":7967.268,"text":"真的就基本上我們這法規本身要鬆綁金融科技就是要鬆綁法規沙盒時間就鬆綁法規你的整個資產管理就要本身要鬆綁法規你如果這個都還沒有兼顧起來的話你怎麼成立資產管理中心這個確實我們過去的法制是有一定的思維跟框架對而且金融管理中心你如果這樣的個人的專業投資人你有兼顧起來的話你還可減少詐騙你知道嗎"},{"start":7970.215,"end":7986.287,"text":"你給他一個license你允許他一個執照你納管其他的說非法有沒有可能現階段很多詐騙就假設個人是專業而取代所謂投顧投信然後跟著我走就是這樣子的情況啊不是嗎亂象就這樣產生了制度上的缺漏就是如此啊"},{"start":7987.067,"end":8010.392,"text":"謝謝委員提供一個可以思考的方向啦,我想過去我們在金管會傳統就是對所謂的機構管理都是對不特定大眾有做這些行為對,你應該站在這個角度也需要順便打詐嘛好不好,你思考一下開放個人投信專業投資人第二個部分呢,理財機器人的部分一般是跟ETF掛鉤在一起的還有一個跟高頻交易掛鉤在一起的,來我讓你看一下"},{"start":8011.292,"end":8032.766,"text":"下禮拜說要討論當中的議題啦!證券供貨侯籍的跟什麼一樣那根本年底要處理的事情還遊說拉比本委員會委員我給你看一下機器人理財機器人理財根據你們證交所的計算當中最高的金額總共獲利的是23人而已這個人是自然人他背後是法人獲利是207億平均一個人是獲利9億之多"},{"start":8037.569,"end":8065.821,"text":"我把它切開境內境外、自然人跟法人很不巧的就是這些境外的法人賺了最多194億當中賺最多的錢是靠機器人的高頻交易啊就境內的法人還輸3億多境內的自然人輸了291億主委這個當中交易有符合金融正義嗎?有符合租稅正義嗎?"},{"start":8067.318,"end":8084.395,"text":"你真的要思考一下你是不是要還規啊、捧水啊這個問題你要好好思考一下啊不是下禮拜一找你來問你就答應他啊 對不對你們報告已經送出去啦你看這個獲利的結果韭菜是誰?國內的獲利的是誰?境外的"},{"start":8085.697,"end":8103.188,"text":"透過高評交易、透過極情的交易而獲得,看這是不是競爭上不公平?豬稅上有爭議嗎?金融上有爭議嗎?主委請回答所以我想剛才委員提醒這個,我會請政體局跟交易所好好地把這些資料做一個分析然後再來看看中間的一些行為今天第一次看到這些資料吧?"},{"start":8104.208,"end":8132.023,"text":"我跟你說有兩大公司啦有兩間法人公司啦就在這個證交所旁邊而已啦他聘請了大概300位的工程師啦你去查一下都是印度人一個月可以大賺1億啊一個月就可以大賺1億所以這種情況你想這些境外的23家公司他都不受金管會的AI運用所所監管喔各位哈囉你知道嗎你知道這種狀況嗎制度可以這樣延續嗎"},{"start":8133.362,"end":8154.322,"text":"制度都不檢討嗎?對,這我們會來瞭解跟檢討。你要好好思考一下。對,我們立刻折騰政經局跟交易所這邊。對,好好深入思考一下。另外一個部分有關於沙盒實驗本期再三做提醒。沙盒跟示範性質本身不同,你剛剛fintech、techfix都不同。"},{"start":8155.083,"end":8177.53,"text":"金融科技跟科技金融不一樣不一樣的情況底下就應該分開計算嘛不是嗎是這樣你才會有一個壓力跟目標你事辦性質的基本上是行政規範的鬆綁可是沙盒的部分呢其實是在法律上的鬆綁但層級是不同的對沙盒不是針對法律的鬆綁部分好因為我最後要問一個問題跟總裁有關係楊總裁請好謝謝委員那個主委請留步"},{"start":8179.497,"end":8205.184,"text":"總裁,主委有去拜訪過您有關於資本集中的問題關於後門條款的部分,你到底給他什麼樣的指示?有什麼樣要交代他的?請說一下好不好?你們私底下會談重點我們在講到就是說這是我們私底下有談論過就是說這個27條之二他有那些的排除條款我們是不是來檢討一下看看"},{"start":8205.404,"end":8205.964,"text":"總裁請回去 主委請"},{"start":8232.537,"end":8254.527,"text":"主委上個禮拜銀行局莊局長跟我講說加上所謂後門條款29但是到113年5月份總共的金管會統計72條之二是26.54跟你109年相比是26.7看起來反而減少喔可是主委我要讓你看一個數字你去看喔38家銀行的母數"},{"start":8255.487,"end":8278.854,"text":"基數從44.8兆成長了56.8兆總共增加了12兆欸同樣的比例你有沒有算過到底多少資金放貸到整個土建籠裡頭去多了幾兆你自己算多了幾兆嘛足足大概多了4兆之多啦是不是足足多了4兆之多"},{"start":8280.839,"end":8299.028,"text":"就絕對數額來看比例,看什麼比例?你要看健康數字啊!整個央行總裁再怎麼總體信用管制,有好沒?沒好啦!多了4兆耶!而且你每年存款金額大概要多3兆多!"},{"start":8300.387,"end":8327.281,"text":"彭主委,多3兆多1兆就是說你又多了1兆可以放貸的空間欸房地產的話不可能不漲嘛對不對你都沒有其他約束的方式嗎?彭主委現在是主要是剛才72之2他有個30啦就是剛剛的比例確實兩個分母跟分子同步上升比例看起來是會穩定但那個值是量是增加總體信用款是不能只有比例上的思考還有金額上的思考嘛"},{"start":8328.646,"end":8345.797,"text":"你看增加4兆房地產怎麼可能不漲總體信用管制這3年多來為什麼比較沒有成效就是銀行放大款怪不得我們金融業會賺那麼多錢放給土建融最容易嘛"},{"start":8347.503,"end":8354.006,"text":"我請問一下彭主任你管不管!總額的部分可能要跟央行一起來討論這件事情楊總裁,你覺得有沒有需要總額的限制?"},{"start":8370.188,"end":8370.688,"text":"現在我們請黃宏威委員質詢"},{"start":8406.705,"end":8409.327,"text":"謝謝主席,我請我們楊總裁有請楊總裁今天我們討論就是有關於我們中央銀行的數位貨幣推出的政策、期程還有整個準備的進度"},{"start":8434.006,"end":8453.36,"text":"我其實已經看了整個的報告那我還是要請問總裁我們CBDC我們現在以中央銀行的立場來講有沒有一個大概的時間可以上路的時間我還沒有我們還沒有就是說很明確的去"},{"start":8455.312,"end":8479.088,"text":"我看到其他國家待會我也會講一下其他國家也是在做一些準備但是他們比如可以宣布說譬如我在兩年內我來決議我要不要做比如說我是不是2026和2025來決定告訴大家到底我會不會推CBDC那我們可以"},{"start":8479.768,"end":8498.578,"text":"對外做一個這樣子因為這樣子也比較好這樣子你們有一個期程我覺得這個有好處但是也有也有它的一個不好的地方為什麼因為你如果說是兩年我來決定好到時候兩年決定的時候他說他不發行"},{"start":8499.605,"end":8512.976,"text":"但是呢整個全球都是在發行的當中那然後呢他又覺得就是說欸你看看因為剛剛我也講了就是說CPTC他很重要的一個功能在他的close border"},{"start":8513.763,"end":8515.524,"text":"所以總裁我這樣聽你的講法就是說未來我們會不會做CBDC當然有很多的一些考慮但是其中一個就是它夠不夠國際化"},{"start":8540.237,"end":8559.49,"text":"如果世界各國,這主要國家都已經上路了,那就算我們央行不願意,但是呢,情勢所然,我們也要上車,是這個意思吧?但是呢,這個當然,你如果說這樣子講的時候呢,我也覺得說中央銀行好像就是說他是很保守,他是被動的。"},{"start":8560.811,"end":8561.972,"text":"我跟委員報告：事實上貨幣體系的改革他是要謹慎的"},{"start":8584.625,"end":8614.105,"text":"我怎麼這麼說所以總裁你認為你並不保守我不保守但是你會謹慎是你的態度那另外我在你們的報告裡面有提到你可能會先行做一些事辦特別提到政府的押標金的部分我請問一下因為像世界各國也都會他不會全面性的實施他大概都會選擇一些就是他有一個所謂的事業"},{"start":8614.645,"end":8615.286,"text":"會不會就這個數位券的這個部分來做試驗?"},{"start":8636.66,"end":8650.081,"text":"因為押標金這個也是一個很好的過程但是他要有一個前提那什麼前提呢也就是說我們商業銀行的存款呢必須要代幣化那這個工程會比較大"},{"start":8652.621,"end":8670.843,"text":"那這個數位券的這個工程比較簡單所以如果說我們如果說要試驗然後我們是從這一步踏出去的話也許對我們來講的話第一個我們比較有信心第二個比較容易做"},{"start":8671.499,"end":8676.34,"text":"所以確實有這樣的一個構成是是是我覺得世界各國因為確實大家都已經美國、英國、歐盟、日本、韓國其實都有很具體的一些進程他們的時間包含中國大陸他們也開始有一些包含一般的大眾或者企業他有所謂的試點所以我才講說我們的試點會不會放在一個政府的押標金然後呢總裁"},{"start":8700.405,"end":8724.702,"text":"因為我們前不久提出了我們有關於就是要抑制房價的信用管制可是我們看到最新的有關於及時房價的指數那麼以今年第二季來看那事實上如果跟去年第二季來比較全台灣這樣子的年增率仍然高達9.5%的漲幅所以"},{"start":8728.385,"end":8749.406,"text":"也就是說我們一直要打房當然你說不是打房是打草房隨便啦就是要抑制房價因為這兩年房價實在飆升得太多可是看起來如果以第二季的數字來說房價依然在飆升即便跟前一季也就是今年的第二季跟第一季的比較"},{"start":8750.387,"end":8778.638,"text":"全台灣的漲幅也高達了4.7%其中新北市達到6.3%新竹縣市達到6.8%所以我想請教總裁你對於我們中央銀行所提出來的打房的措施到目前為止你感到滿意嗎?你感到有收到成效嗎?我跟委員報告就是說中央銀行必須要"},{"start":8780.509,"end":8802.66,"text":"必須要做我們該做的事情但是行政院的一個健全房地產市場的一個方案這是各部會的共同要努力的目標所以也就是說剛剛委員在講到說這個房價飆漲事實上我們看了我們也都是很警惕的"},{"start":8803.3,"end":8804.021,"text":"有沒有心驚膽跳?穩定物價才是你們的目標?"},{"start":8819.212,"end":8841.209,"text":"就是說你的房價是不是會導致他泡沫而讓我們的金融業我們的銀行業呢因為他房價下跌了以後呢他沒辦法承受那些的損失然後導致這個金融的穩定總裁你講的話我一半同意啊一半不同意"},{"start":8842.31,"end":8871.351,"text":"同意的部分沒有錯其實我們很多的政策不是只有央行的信用管制的措施才能夠收到成效那比如說像新青安那麼現在幾乎都可以確定新青安就是這兩年助長房價的一個非常重要的推手而且我們非常擔心五年之後問題就會出現我昨天還在聽就是說某一個企業的員工夫婦兩個人新婚結果新青安呢"},{"start":8872.071,"end":8884.067,"text":"那個老婆去帶了一個房子買了一個房子後來先生說感覺好便宜然後先生也趕快再去帶了新清安就說明明他們只要買一棟房結果他們因為新清安讓他可以去投資一棟房"},{"start":8889.654,"end":8915.476,"text":"所以新建案確實有問題但是現在新建案也在做一些整頓另外其實像我們房地合一稅當然希望當時草房不要大家的轉手太過頻繁但是它發生什麼狀況呢現在標的最兇的都是新建案因為五年以內的房子不會釋出那個稅實在太重了所以導致現在的新建案飆升"},{"start":8916.737,"end":8933.368,"text":"所以常講你就是像防水一樣你把這一條堵住了但是它的水就是這麼多所以我剛才其實某一程度我同意我們剛才趙薇所講的錢就是這麼多你這個把它堵住了它就往另外一個水道所以那個話就整個的長起來它有很多的問題但是"},{"start":8935.129,"end":8961.487,"text":"如果今天中央銀行採取了這麼多的措施可是我們看到的房價的指數仍然繼續的飆升大家就會認為說政府打房打假的那是不是還是不夠力可是常打出來的恐怕沒有辦法對症下藥我今天用一點點時間比如說你們現在對第二房就是有些區域第二房現在給他的貸款的層數降低"},{"start":8963.128,"end":8976.32,"text":"現在呢我們就接到很多的陳情而不是建商告買房的人買房的人告建商互相告啊因為他當時去買房的時候他不曉得他貸款成數會變這麼低所以其實我當時有跟央行來協調"},{"start":8979.199,"end":8996.941,"text":"這個措施我支持但是你的實施點你要考慮到當時他去買這個房子的時候他不知道他貸款成數會降那麼低結果現在在現場第一線產生了很多的一些困擾跟爭議好我剩最後一點時間來我覺得很重要的哈"},{"start":8997.722,"end":9018.223,"text":"日圓貶值到目前我等了老半天只有一家車商我也不要幫他做廣告啦我覺得他本來就應該降價但他至少降價開第一槍日系產品沒有人降價欸怎麼會這樣以前起碼要喝咖啡啊我也公開喊話我說經濟部你趕快去請這些廠商喝咖啡咖啡錢我來出沒有問題"},{"start":9019.244,"end":9040.481,"text":"怎麼會這樣子日圓都已經扁到這個地板上了結果我們所有的家電啦我們女生的這個化妝品啦什麼就是家用用品啦服飾啊給我講一些有的沒有的理由就是不肯降價很不合理對不對我上次也有問過總裁啊總裁很關心這個事情你可以跟經濟部長講一下這樣子"},{"start":9042.242,"end":9042.963,"text":"謝謝王宏偉的哲學,我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":9695.353,"end":9711.224,"text":"好,我們繼續開會,接著請葛禄君委員質詢。謝謝主席,有請中央銀行楊金龍總裁有請楊總裁"},{"start":9718.533,"end":9744.323,"text":"委員早早總裁你好今日財委會安排數位貨幣的議程首先還是要來關注一下我國CBDC目前研發的進度根據央行今天所提的書面報告我國的CBDC目前沒有發行的時間表但是據本席了解立法院財委會早在110年就曾經由李桂敏召委安排數位貨幣準備狀況的專題報告當時呢"},{"start":9749.087,"end":9749.868,"text":"我想第一個"},{"start":9778.234,"end":9806.753,"text":"宣導還是要再往前宣導而且宣導很重要要讓大家廣泛對CBDC的一個了解是第一個第二個平台的精進平台的精進平台的精進也許我們做了到某一個程度但是還是要往前精進這是第二個第三個是我們的法制作業必須要積極的進行"},{"start":9808.154,"end":9825.287,"text":"謝謝總裁您剛剛提到的這所有的細節全部不在你們所提出的四個階段技術研究試驗先導計畫試點跟全面上線我們之後會再就教於你們那無論目前我們推動在哪一個階段安全問題始終都是首要關注的重點有啊有啊我們這個我們在報告裡面也有講啊"},{"start":9826.227,"end":9852.977,"text":"所以現在換階段名稱了是不是對不是不是就是說這個是一開始在特別是在第一個第二個就是說你的平台的精進這邊呢就是安全就會在那所以現在是技術研究階段還是實驗階段還是在技術這應該是實驗而且是在精進所以還在第二階段嗎三年過去我們還在第二階段對對對對那我們什麼時候會進入下一階段先導計畫試點"},{"start":9855.481,"end":9859.283,"text":"請問我們的CBDC採用的DLT的技術是不是都可以解決這三個問題了?"},{"start":9886.355,"end":9911.147,"text":"這個是技術的問題我請了我們的同事來能不能已經解決了?是不是已經解決了?跟委員報告這些問題我們都有在關注也都在解決事實上像這個所謂敗戰型將軍的問題其實我們現在用的這個鏈其實不會有這種問題後面兩個呢?Double Spending 跟 Spare Tech呢?Double Spending 當然也不會有這種問題"},{"start":9912.662,"end":9916.185,"text":"接下來我們一定要非常注意我們的安全性的問題另外本席也要請教民眾最擔心的隱私問題"},{"start":9928.434,"end":9954.97,"text":"根據央行的問卷調查高達45.2%的民眾對於CBDC留下交易記錄感到有些擔憂隱私應該要非常的重要但是根據央行7月1日提供給財委會的考察報告卻提到開立不記名錢包需要提供手機號碼請問總裁對於開立不記名錢包要求需要提供手機號碼的理由到底是什麼好那我總處來回答"},{"start":9957.952,"end":9985.871,"text":"首先不記名錢包的意思是跟他是不做KYC的跟記名區塊來那為什麼要手機號碼因為我們也很怕說如果沒有手機號碼他可能會開好多個錢包然後做一個詐騙的一個車手的錢包所以他們給我們號碼之後我們會去透過中介機構他去畫一個OTP再回過頭來檢印這個手機是有效性的就給一個錢包但是受到傳到央行的部分是已經是去識別化雜錯數的亂碼的"},{"start":9988.713,"end":9998.821,"text":"你們是用哪一個技術?誰提供的服務?可以做到這樣子?你讓他提供手機,然後你又說是隱私、匿名。你們用誰的技術?"},{"start":9999.836,"end":10020.049,"text":"我們有開發一個標準的規格是你們開發的還是誰開發的?你們開發的你們自己的技術你們當然就有可能留下這些資料啊對但是我就說是中介機構留下手機號碼還是那這樣怎麼叫做不記名呢?而且你剛剛提到房子你說所以你一個叫做要KYC一個叫做要留下手機號碼"},{"start":10021.11,"end":10039.614,"text":"這哪叫做不記名?這哪叫做隱私呢?沒關係我時間有限防止大量開立不記名錢包去防詐去擔心大家用詐騙那大家以後你說防止車手我不要讓大家開車我防止大家接詐騙的簡訊我就不要收簡訊這種被動消極的方法我覺得真的不是最好的"},{"start":10040.174,"end":10065.196,"text":"總裁我想提醒民眾的自由和隱私是最珍貴的不管哪個政黨我們都要全力去保障民眾不好意思我時間有限所以我不想佔大家太多時間民眾有自由可以選擇他用隱私的方式花錢如果我們要用技術的方式去處理他的隱私要增加的成本央行就編列相關的預算去執行不要去因約廢時"},{"start":10066.957,"end":10084.953,"text":"最後我提到一個技術的問題不好意思主席再跟您借一點點時間謝謝根據你們提出來的尤其我訪查的時候你們說TPS只有10不太夠用但是呢現在的這個技術4年的時間已經過去了以太坊已達到TPS60"},{"start":10086.354,"end":10114.429,"text":"L2、L3擴容可以達到240、索拉納可以到平均值2000我真的是要問湘航對於DLT技術的應用你們究竟採用什麼共識演算法你們採用的技術到底跟哪一個國家是一樣的我從所有的報告裡面完全看不出來是技術黑箱可不可以解藥說明我已經幫你們整理了會後我會提供給你們好可以啊不是我說你們用的技術跟哪一個國家一樣"},{"start":10115.643,"end":10144.831,"text":"到底是什麼演算法?什麼DLT?是R3還是Hyperledger全部沒看到嗎?跟委員報告就是說其實這個專案從2019年就開始了所以技術是不斷的在演進那我們在這個試驗的過程裡面也不斷的在嘗試各種的技術譬如說我們之前也用過Colon那也有用過Coda也有用Hyperledger的Fabric那現在是什麼?目前是在用Hyperledger的Bassoop"},{"start":10145.54,"end":10161.856,"text":"好,那為什麼報告你都沒有提到?因為這個比較細節啦好啦,歡迎我們希望未來我們辦公室會跟你們來做一些討論希望我們能做一些技術交流確保我們的技術CBDC是領先全球好不好,謝謝謝謝葛國勳委員的質詢接著我們請賴慧雲委員質詢"},{"start":10172.604,"end":10175.687,"text":"請金管會主委謝謝主席有請彭主委委員好是主席我想針對的就是臺南市的老人的人口比例來跟那個主委做一個探討"},{"start":10192.895,"end":10215.128,"text":"不好意思,因為我剛剛跟陳一貞委員換了所以我從縣區跑過來就我們台南其實有185萬9千的人口數其實我們的老人化的一個程度相當的高就是說18.77這個是以一個六度的平均的一個65歲的老人比"},{"start":10215.928,"end":10239.139,"text":"可是相對的就是說我們其實是超過了我們站到了就是高於全國的平均我們已經到今年的5月是在19.12那今天我們討論了虛擬貨幣的一個交易跟金融科技的一個議題科技帶來了很多的一個便利可是相對的就是在我的選區這些老年人"},{"start":10240.319,"end":10266.188,"text":"不一定是非常便利的我們從實體銀行過多可是它集中在險區那這個鄉村成為金融的一個政控區主委這完全就是這個10萬人平均會有17家銀行的一個分行的一個服務可是相對的就是說在本席的險區裡頭這個有很大的一個區域的一個落差"},{"start":10267.128,"end":10291.163,"text":"在以選區為例我20家在新營北門將軍後壁東山下營還有柳營是完全都沒有銀行的完全都沒有銀行的可是我在這裡要請問主委有沒有針對的偏鄉偏鄉的這一個覆蓋力那個可以提高實質的金融服務有沒有比較好的方法呢"},{"start":10291.263,"end":10317.355,"text":"是報告委員其實我們在過去對於銀行的分行的遷移或是裁測或是增設我們都是非常關注啦特別是過去我們在整併的時候呢很多的銀行都是為了這個分行所以我們對一些偏鄉的服務的考慮並不會完全依據他們的商業的考慮其實上有做這個這樣的考慮可是你的分行分行就沒有啊那怎麼辦勒"},{"start":10318.255,"end":10336.855,"text":"對,就是說這部分我想請楊局長做個簡短的回覆一下,現在的政策,對是,局長報告委員,我們確實對於偏鄉這邊在生成銀行生成實體分支機構的時候其實是會給予一些便利性,比如說它任何時間都可以提出申請"},{"start":10337.856,"end":10355.711,"text":"所以我們也是希望說在偏鄉這邊可以多設一些分支機構不過就是有一個部分可能要跟委員解釋就是說因為我們目前定義的偏鄉是還有包括就是說他也沒有郵費局也沒有信用合作社"},{"start":10357.512,"end":10381.105,"text":"市長你講到了我們的郵局我們的融匯系統那事實上我們在講這個數位落差非常大那這些高齡者在網路的使用率他其實只有一半而已那近半的一個65歲以上的長者是不會用網路的那不會用網路你怎麼樣避免就是說代操作的一個風險"},{"start":10382.826,"end":10404.312,"text":"這個主委你有沒有想到就是說其實超過一半甚至就是更高六成以上他就是不會操作網路那所有就是在這一個數位落差這麼大的一個過程當中局長還講到了有沒有什麼樣的一個更好的服務來服務老人那你只能靠郵局你只能靠農會"},{"start":10405.512,"end":10426.908,"text":"那事實上郵局跟農會這個普及性的一個服務讓數位弱勢的一個民眾他也可以接受到一個便利實體的一個服務的那個機會那可是在這裡我想請問主委就是說你未來在科技金融裡頭是不是也會一樣就是把它放到郵局放到農漁會勒?"},{"start":10428.978,"end":10430.719,"text":"以前我母親在某個縣市應該是大概6、7千塊"},{"start":10456.574,"end":10480.312,"text":"6、7千塊其實現在已經8千多了其實老人到這個所有的銀行系統裡頭來的時候他就是存錢提錢非常簡單非常的一個簡單好那既然你在偏鄉的郵局跟農誼會的信用部你在還沒有普及信以前你有沒有考慮就是降低他們的手續費呢對確實跨行提款的部分是會有一個那個手續費這部分的話"},{"start":10484.782,"end":10500.408,"text":"我們可以來演繹這個事情可以演繹好 謝謝主委謝謝那這接著就是說金融的科技你要開放那我們知道在這開放的過程當中我們付出的一個社會成本也相當的高那是不是也必須要考慮到防詐"},{"start":10501.408,"end":10525.927,"text":"那你看喔在金融科技業方便的時候是誰被騙的比較多反而不是老人被騙的比較多因為我們不會用嘛其實反而是年輕人被騙的比較多那我們從一個數據裡頭來看從2017年它的一個20億一直到了就是說我們現階段的80億這個7年當中增加了60億增加了4倍"},{"start":10527.328,"end":10556.187,"text":"主委您怎麼看待的就是說新銀貨幣的一個詐騙是金融的一個創新還是一個詐騙的一個陷阱你看這個窮出不窮的一個詐騙是不是我們覺得說在近4年的詐騙案從66件暴增到245件那主委如果金管會目前推出了新銀貨幣的專法沒有辦法有效的去管理這些沒有牌的一個公司"},{"start":10556.787,"end":10578.502,"text":"那是不是會出現像朱鑫業一樣每一排的公司就是最大那如果我在這裡要請教金管會如果就是說你沒有辦法用監管股票市場的一個方式高標準的一個監理吸引貨幣的一個平台那你如果都做不到的話你為什麼要給他一個合法的地位呢"},{"start":10580.183,"end":10596.053,"text":"其實這樣可以從兩個角度來思考第一個我們想說現在我們對於這個所謂的虛擬資產業者的管理都是遵照國際的一個步驟因為他們在發展中我們一定先從洗錢開始洗錢房子開始那接下來為什麼我們第4階段要訂定專法"},{"start":10597.214,"end":10600.136,"text":"主委,我想你們準備的、設想的這個都在這個計畫中在進行我想在這裡請問主委就是說如果今天有一個股票要上市"},{"start":10624.068,"end":10647.137,"text":"那你要受到多少的監理呢?一個股票要上市你要受到多少監理?你只要這樣回答我就好了現在股票上市的部分呢第一個他一定是公發公發完還要上市上市要經過我們的交易所的審查這個部分他是有一個蠻嚴謹蠻長的一個過程才有辦法一個建商如果要推薦你買賣一支股票的話要受到多少的監理?"},{"start":10649.199,"end":10677.298,"text":"當然這個牽涉到你今天是不是像比如說你是有沒有這個執照就像我們對我們要推薦股票的話我們按照我們的現在投進投顧法應該是有他的規範是這麼多的一個規範這麼多的一個監理那你的金融科技的發展也應該要兼顧到就是數位的一個弱勢這個才會避免掉就是金融科技的緩成為金融詐騙的一個工具那是當然他變成是一個有牌的我家的老人叫你騙了了"},{"start":10679.259,"end":10696.762,"text":"本來沒白的時候還可以就是說這個銀行沒有認證現在他只要就是有了這個你們給他的一個合法的地位的時候騙得更慘那你是不是你要付出的詐騙的一個成本會更高呢?"},{"start":10697.222,"end":10711.872,"text":"其實我們過去的經驗的預期是所謂有牌就是機構納管機構納管以後它必然增加它至少它內控還有法尊上面的要求再來它相應的也是會有明確的法律的法則我想"},{"start":10712.712,"end":10732.742,"text":"納管這件事情實際上一定會大幅的下降剛剛講還沒納管之前他可能導致的負面的效果有可能納管以後會大幅的下降嗎?就是詐騙會大幅的下降嗎?就是說剛剛因為機構所產生的因為他比如說剛剛委員所指證說納管以後他有了這個牌肆無忌憚我想這個在過去經驗比較不會發生倒是那些"},{"start":10733.322,"end":10733.642,"text":"總裁有請楊總裁"},{"start":10755.834,"end":10767.601,"text":"在這裡請教總裁,空盤不斷地往上那存款的利率會不會過低昨天我們的CPI就是公布是2.42那這個相比會不會過低呢?"},{"start":10770.562,"end":10794.998,"text":"對啦,就是說我知道委員在講的就是說是實質利率的問題對,實質利率當然啦,我們中央銀行也有關注這個實質利率的問題但是就是說我們如果跟其他國家來比較的話事實上也不是所有其他國家的實質利率都是這樣的啦"},{"start":10795.718,"end":10816.027,"text":"因為第一個就是說好因為我們的通膨會慢慢的會下來通膨會慢慢的下來會會會這麼有信心對我們的Protection到目前為止我們特別是像Core來講的話就核心CPI核心CPI現在都已經降到2%以下了"},{"start":10817.162,"end":10832.652,"text":"核心CPI我跟你說齁主席你不可以齁只看到核心的齁核心的一個問題核心你扣掉糧食你扣掉了這些力能啊對啦對啦其實這個就是十一住宿啊我想我沒有錯"},{"start":10833.592,"end":10848.1,"text":"人民的感受跟中央銀行的一個貨幣政策所關注的那個指標好像是不一樣啦對啦這個我同意這個同意我同意你同意我同意我同意委員就是說你看大家的感受都跟我們中央銀行在講就是說這個2%"},{"start":10849.761,"end":10852.443,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說中央銀行關注物價但是呢我們不會就是說單獨關注某一項的物價啦"},{"start":10868.912,"end":10881.7,"text":"當然當然我們是關注所有的物價的平均沒有錯沒有錯所以就是說在這裡也要跟這個總裁做一個建議考慮有沒有機會就是加息這個是對於通盤有一個整體上的一個"},{"start":10886.062,"end":10906.7,"text":"那個影響的那就是貨幣的政策我們也希望就是你考慮到當然你說你有考慮嘛可是這個大家感受不到所以希望就是說在最後就是也要求啦金管會就是評估協助這個長者學習安全的使用就是數位的一個金融的服務的一個具體的一個作為還有尤其"},{"start":10907.461,"end":10923.655,"text":"跟融融會信用部的合作提高實質的金融的服務在這個偏鄉覆蓋率的一個可行性那金管會也應該要考慮是不是用更高的一個標準就是來監管虛擬貨幣交易平臺好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝主席我們請金管會主委有請彭主委"},{"start":10940.317,"end":10941.138,"text":"你知道上半年什麼意思嗎?"},{"start":10962.769,"end":10963.81,"text":"請問你們現在還要到道路去做精檢嗎?"},{"start":10972.51,"end":10993.955,"text":"我們對市場的管理我們是會按照我們的表定的程序來做啦吼那我們還是對於所有的金融機構在不管在各地都是我們希望能夠做一個檢查的這樣一個程序講得很好沒有回答來回去做嗎有沒有就是我們還是希望去檢查是是嗎希望什麼時候"},{"start":10994.929,"end":11001.894,"text":"我們因為這個部分畢竟是不是我們能夠全部決定還要那你有向金管會對不起你有向陸委會提出申請嗎?"},{"start":11003.275,"end":11028.935,"text":"這部分的話我們是有按照程序在進行中有申請嗎?我們有去朝就是往那邊要去檢查但是還沒申請現在還在過程中來檢查屏障現在竟然不是要退休的話再回答我們都依照程序向陸委會先報備已經有申請了多多報備了有在報備打算什麼時候去還是會不會因為兩岸關係不佳就不去了?"},{"start":11031.616,"end":11051.512,"text":"我們看對方的答覆不是啊,如果對方給你去,你會不會因為兩岸關係不好就不去啊?對方如果...欸那個,如果會昨天說什麼要帶什麼新的電腦、新的平板、新的什麼東西,恐嚇人民啊?你們這樣怎麼檢查勒?沒有,如果對方同意我們就會過去,嘿。你們就會過去,你會帶新的電腦、新的手機跟新的平板嗎?你會嗎?主委,你會嗎?"},{"start":11056.82,"end":11057.16,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11069.628,"end":11070.088,"text":"市長有來吧請您市長"},{"start":11103.201,"end":11120.512,"text":"市長好我想跟你討論金融數位發展數位建設發展的事宜為了鼓勵電信事業在全國設置行動及固定寬頻網路你們有各項補助辦法嗎?在電信事業普及服務基金還有前瞻預算有在做嗎?你知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":11122.011,"end":11123.212,"text":"你不知道?對,我不知道,抱歉"},{"start":11141.921,"end":11142.121,"text":"補助偏鄉"},{"start":11161.427,"end":11174.117,"text":"防救災的這個也很重要嘛像我們昨天全島大停電這個行動通訊這個基礎建設計畫你看看金門、連江、澎湖又再次的沒有把我們金門列進去111年跟114年都是555那澎湖咧?256萬、635萬"},{"start":11176.539,"end":11178.159,"text":"報告委員,這件事情我們回去會檢討,那我們會再提供書面報告給委員"},{"start":11205.05,"end":11226.985,"text":"一個禮拜一個禮拜之內很好很好那你不是找救兵上來怎麼還沒有辦法回答是連下面都不知道嗎因為今天來的我們以為是要講那個數位貨幣的所以我們今天來的那個新的這個次長到這個各個委員會我跟您切磋一下了到待會上來回答不知道是會上全國新聞的"},{"start":11230.187,"end":11256.583,"text":"請問從民國104年開始金門就四年中間計劃就提到要把我們金門建設成為E-island先鋒智慧島這個就是讓比如說每個人到金門去要參觀、要旅遊的時候就馬上就可以有無線網路知道怎麼玩什麼這個是其實很重要的那我們希望數法部在這個部分可以持續的大力補助我們數位基礎建設沒有問題吧"},{"start":11258.606,"end":11286.016,"text":"是沒問題吧可以可以喔沒問題喔不要再下次再讓我看到這個後面我們別的縣市離島我只跟離島比喔別的縣市都有然後金門都是0、0、0這樣子我沒有辦法接受可以嗎是可以好好一個禮拜吧好謝謝您喔然後你那個報告裡頭請告訴我未來你要如何強化金門數位發展的具體策略是沒有問題喔謝謝委員一個禮拜可以喔好謝謝次長喔好請回座喔那我們那個金管會"},{"start":11287.605,"end":11308.433,"text":"主委,這個發展金融科技的創新實驗的這個困境你們報告第三頁裡面有提到金融科技創新實驗核准9案撥回2案業者自行撤回5案這是在你們報告所提到的嗎?是的那你認為說從2018年實施到今天一共核准9案的成績單這個你滿意嗎?"},{"start":11310.164,"end":11329.234,"text":"其實這有些結構性的問題因為我們堅尼沙盒只要處理法律所不許的實驗因為當一個落地通常他真的如果出了沙盒以外他如果法律沒有做相同步的修正他也是沒辦法做所以這是一個結構性的問題最後還經過大院同意"},{"start":11332.896,"end":11358.129,"text":"主委很厲害,又講了很多,你滿意嗎?我想這個當然任何一個人看到這個數字都跟當時的預期應該是有落差就不滿意嘛,那有結構性比如說要修法嘛,比如說相關的制度要改變嘛對,我們已經有做委外的研究,而且我們內部也在檢討可以怎麼樣修改讓它變得更有功能比較可以推動嘛,因為這是政府的政策嘛對嘛沒錯嘛,那這是你們的責任吧,誰的責任啊?"},{"start":11359.622,"end":11382.183,"text":"這是我們主管的法律讓這個推動得更好是不是金管會的責任那當然那當然你的責任你多久可以把你那個計畫給做出來我們現在正在我剛才跟委員報告就是我們有請回外做那個整個通盤而且我們最近也都跟金融科技業者座談然後希望能夠找到可以未來改善的方法"},{"start":11382.824,"end":11389.861,"text":"啊,多久呢?像你要修法嘛,歡迎送來財政委員會啊,要先到院會去啊,你有沒有一個時間啊,要一個目標導向啊?"},{"start":11392.496,"end":11413.885,"text":"我想這個我們的委外報告很快就會出來了就是他們過來那我們就會趕快來檢視很快是指一個禮拜齁應該是7月啦7月就是這個月齁接著後續你們提出相關的這個按照這個來做修法應該一個月內也可以做到吧這個可能還要經過因為修法送進來送進來就好修法是我們送進來的"},{"start":11415.886,"end":11429.872,"text":"應該是還要經過這個行政院?對對對行政院對對對所以這個程序可能如果修法可能沒那麼快所以我們才會想說我們可不可以用好那麻煩你定一個目標好嗎目標好嗎讓本席了解好嗎因為我們都希望"},{"start":11431.713,"end":11448.465,"text":"我們在這裡為國家社會做一件事嘛尤其是金融創新的方面我對彭主委的期待真的是很高的但是我在民間聽到不是關於您的就是說對金管會長久以來很多創新的想法沒有就是比較限制性的這個做法讓國內的金融創新沒有辦法"},{"start":11449.426,"end":11453.289,"text":"金融科技的發展也是那個總統政見之一然後也是我們現在執行的重點"},{"start":11474.763,"end":11495.631,"text":"我用2013年櫃買中心成立創櫃板來當例子這之前事實上在座也聽過我也有講過了就是你們成立了原來創櫃板成立的目的就是提供創新創意的非公開發行的微型企業做這個籌資功能提供股權籌資功能但不具交易功能你看這10年來的成績你看看這算成績嗎你滿意嗎"},{"start":11497.612,"end":11526.483,"text":"103年到112年登錄從61到現在一二十家申請加速從剛開始大家滿懷期待一百一十四家到像溜滑梯一直下來你們對這個成績滿意嗎當然我想任何人看到這條曲線應該都不是預期的啦反正我們以台灣的應該是不滿意啦應該是希望還有說是不滿意嘛你看從剛剛到現在剛剛講到現在都不滿意嘛但不滿意的責任是在你啊"},{"start":11527.003,"end":11527.904,"text":"有沒有考慮開放由民間設立創櫃板"},{"start":11546.005,"end":11548.887,"text":"金融科技的發展涉及銀行及證據、保險局相關的,那涉促這個來講是不是還不夠?"},{"start":11568.679,"end":11592.244,"text":"當然當然不夠但是我們還是受限於現有的條件當然很多委員也希望說我們儘管會不怕做事是怕沒有資源所以未來當然如果說有機會的話我們當然希望擴編更更大更有清楚的規模這個我們一定是支持只要你們做得好是不是然後選擇加入這些是很好的但是現在你們內部官僚體系大家不知道會不會按照平台啦這我們會盡量來破除我們希望真的能夠吸納意見"},{"start":11594.004,"end":11604.127,"text":"好謝謝我對主委有充分的心也很高的期待啦那主委報告給我們我們希望你們具體落實去做好嗎是謝謝謝謝委員繼續謝謝謝謝主委謝謝陳昱臻委員的質詢接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢好請彭主委還有梁總裁還有梁總裁嗎梁總裁梁總裁"},{"start":11628.706,"end":11647.695,"text":"委員好是兩位好我想虛擬貨幣這個大概是在最近我們在設醒房法的時候一直在討論的事情那虛擬資產現在已經列為醒房的對象是那世界上各種不同的虛擬資產非常的多那目前國際市場上面有所謂的穩定幣"},{"start":11649.335,"end":11666.6,"text":"我想今天要談數位貨幣穩定幣USDT或者USDC目前是跟美金掛鉤也有新加坡跟香港都在做穩定幣虛擬資產業者目前有在規劃台幣的穩定幣我不知道兩位的看法如何"},{"start":11667.04,"end":11692.866,"text":"主委如果按照當然比如說今天另外主題CTPC是央行的權貨假設一般的所謂的穩定幣我們剛才講剛才委員提出的我只問你的態度如何我們現在在我們現在規劃裡面這個部分我們現在在洗房上面我們的主管有兩個要件一個叫做具有金融投資還有支付的功能這是我們現在金管會所納管的一個基礎虛擬貨幣也算嘛"},{"start":11694.586,"end":11716.355,"text":"對,所以剛剛講那個穩定幣呢就比較趨向的是具有支付的功能這個就是我們納管的對象好,來,總裁你一定不贊成嘛我想就是說這個穩定幣穩定幣是虛擬貨幣的一種所以就是說據我了解就是說我們監管會他的態度因為現在就是說要對虛擬貨幣"},{"start":11722.978,"end":11732.384,"text":"要對虛擬貨幣來監管現在那個我沒有什麼意見所以世界上有這樣的情形我知道我知道所以我就說對那現在穩定幣第二個階段就是說來看看"},{"start":11737.739,"end":11738.319,"text":"謝謝,我想接下來就是請主委"},{"start":11766.229,"end":11791.018,"text":"遠見雜誌在今年5月到6月之間有進行台灣虛擬資產使用行為的調查裡面很清楚我們76%的受訪者是在國外的交易所交易80%認為說國際平台應該來台落地我想問一下主委現在納管的虛擬資產業者有多少現在我們大概是26 26家那有多少人使用戶是用國內的資產你們知道"},{"start":11792.968,"end":11812.247,"text":"這部分我們還要再去了解還不知道,所以你們也沒資料如果已經納管了,不應該沒資料是不是同仁要跟主委報告一下多少人,現在納管的業者有多少客戶第二個,那你有沒有掌握現在在國內使用國外平台的客戶數量這部分的話也沒有"},{"start":11813.51,"end":11836.546,"text":"很抱歉,因為這個部分我們現在工會才剛成立啊,那我們正在...對,這件事情如果我們已經把他們納入我們洗房的管理對象我們連最基本的data都沒有這件事情是很可怕的而且國際上的交易平台目前為止很想進來台灣但是碰到了很多困難,不知道為什麼是不想納管他還是他們沒有資格被納管"},{"start":11837.316,"end":11858.281,"text":"我們現在是因為針對我們現在剛剛講委員講說我們現在有很多家在申請我的意思是如果國內的民眾大部分使用國外的平台而這些國外的平台也因為在台灣落地我們是不是應該非常積極的趕快把它納管然後來做管理接下去你才可以控管它的洗房"},{"start":11859.341,"end":11860.863,"text":"對,這部分的話其實我知道還有很多家公司還在審核中"},{"start":11876.704,"end":11897.39,"text":"大家都想要納管請金管會積極一點如果我們民眾在使用它就是一個存在的事實其實我上任以後也有跟集局在這方面我每次督促他金管會我只能說前面的立場非常非常不積極而且假裝沒看見就像我想講沒看見沒納管就不關我的事現在洗房壓進去了"},{"start":11899.209,"end":11899.369,"text":"是!是!"},{"start":11917.32,"end":11946.224,"text":"快一點第二個納管現在既然有機制有26家但是其他要申請的完全進不來我當然知道有些國內的業者有意見或者是有市場的競爭我不知道但是該納管就納管如果他是國人在用的你就要好好管第二個地下的會對現在我想知道一下目前為止剛剛講的我們洗房加了很多的"},{"start":11947.268,"end":11973.221,"text":"項目包括第三方支付包括電子支付包括剛剛講的虛擬資產所以洗房的業務非常非常的大那儘管會在地下匯款畫案為名的部分其實有做了很多努力尤其是移工的部分也開放了四家非銀行的小額匯兌的業者但是現在為止目前為止這些移工其實人數有大概62萬多然後一年的匯款金額"},{"start":11974.341,"end":11998.913,"text":"已經達到630億今年可能會達到800億其實它是一個很好的方法額度很小然後很方便因為這些移工他們可以去7-11按一個鍵24小時可以匯款回去那金額在每個月只有五萬塊的額度這樣子的話讓他們可以把便宜而且方便的匯款回家不用像以前全部都是走地下金融但是"},{"start":12000.114,"end":12016.035,"text":"一百一十二年起訴了一家匯存公司用APP配的方式也就是APP的方式非法的提供了菲律賓的移工小額的匯兌業務所以有一家被起訴了我不知道市場上還有沒有很多家所以"},{"start":12017.211,"end":12038.885,"text":"這些可能成為洗錢工具金管會有沒有在列管我想現在剛才委員都非常清楚我們現在有四家的這個合法合法然後中間我們也申請過幾家我們也否準了幾家因為條件不夠對但是他們還在做對這部分的話我想說因為我們銀行局這邊所以這是你管的嗎非法匯兌是誰管非法的匯兌業者是誰管"},{"start":12043.493,"end":12056.796,"text":"對,他如果說是非法匯兌的話因為他現在還不是我們納管的機構應該就刑事責任我們會...所以就是法務部管對,所以我們知道的話我們就會...總裁,你不要站在旁邊非法匯兌對你有很大的影響你有沒有在管?"},{"start":12058.911,"end":12060.632,"text":"接下來又要開放印度移工了"},{"start":12083.664,"end":12100.454,"text":"接下來有可能更多的白領工作者到台灣來其實外匯這件事情就是剛剛講不要讓它在地下讓它能夠被列管如果要洗房要管就要好好管而且我們知道它存在我們不能假裝沒看見所以現在的問題是這些APP其實都在架上來速發時間暫停速發布"},{"start":12118.914,"end":12147.055,"text":"非法匯兌的業者其實都是用APP在經營那這些APP目前為止其實都很方便可能也都設在國外那剛剛講我們看到這種非法匯兌業者不是他們兩個管那是不是你管報告委員現在並不是我們管所以結論就是沒人管除非有人檢舉到法務部去 對嗎還是訴發部我們相關的這個部分有沒有做巡查呢 沒有"},{"start":12148.072,"end":12176.596,"text":"也很難是你們沒辦法管因為它都在Google Play或Apple Store上面好啦今天我要問的就是如果我們要把洗房好好管地下會對必須要能夠被掀開來是以前連銀樓業者都是地下會對現在開始比較多人走正規的管道我也希望書發部針對這種非法的APP也有一個巡查的功能好嗎是最後一個就是"},{"start":12178.373,"end":12179.463,"text":"現在您出發部請回"},{"start":12182.725,"end":12209.084,"text":"彭主委最後就是我上次你來拜訪我的時候我要跟你提過的一個最重要的是金融研訓院對於臺灣金融生活調查裡面針對年輕世代的金融素養低落這件事情非常的嚴重甚至已經高達81.3的比例金融素養極低或低臺灣的年輕人81%的金融素養極低這個問題是出在哪裡"},{"start":12213.282,"end":12230.462,"text":"呃,這個齁,其實我們呃,誠如委員講,我們的大家的金融素養極低或低百分之八十一而且尤其是越年輕的越低對,我想這是當然也有可能衡量的問題不過我們儘管會在整個金融教育上面我們是做很多努力也許努力不夠"},{"start":12231.082,"end":12255.84,"text":"所以主委我具體的建議時間我的時間快到了但是我要說學校是一個管道我們在台北市的時候我在擔任副市長我們去找了很多的銀行協助捐了一些錢給NGO他們由台大的教授還有台大的業師到台北市的高中去開金融素養課程現在已經成為選修課也就是說如果我們可以在學校"},{"start":12256.42,"end":12279.502,"text":"通過工會他們本來就有企業社會責任然後協助你們來做而不是單單要求金管會來做甚至學校其實非常非常的歡迎尤其是學生來說但是對他們來說完全是一個新的世界就像您第一次來跟我說英國的小學生從一年級就開始學什麼是貨幣、什麼是信用卡、什麼是股票"},{"start":12280.183,"end":12303.108,"text":"如果我們的小學到大都不知道,他到大學以後就不會有金融素養,對吧?謝謝,謝謝委員主任,我會請中官處跟我們研訓院怎麼樣跟學校的資源做計畫。學校資源還有業界的資源,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝黃昌山委員的質詢,接著我們請李昆城委員、李昇星委員、李昆城委員不在,接著我們請吳立華委員質詢。"},{"start":12312.972,"end":12315.3,"text":"謝謝主席先請楊杭總裁有請楊總裁"},{"start":12324.174,"end":12352.58,"text":"吳委員早總裁早關於央行在2019年你們就開始研究建制這個央行的數位貨幣所以我們可以說它應該是一個新的議題那為什麼說它是非常新的議題因為你們也有委外做一個問卷調查結果呢一般民眾對這個央行要發行的數位貨幣他的認知可以說只有一成的人聽過"},{"start":12355.3,"end":12380.106,"text":"這樣的一個國際趨勢大概我們也了解你們的態度那因為你們有特別提到我們也有看到因為我們發現像這一些在推動的大多是金融基礎設施比較不足的國家啦那比較先進的國家呢反而是類似我們現在的態度就是準備然後建構然後就是要因應"},{"start":12381.446,"end":12384.972,"text":"我想說的就是說你們央行在做的這個數位貨幣呢它的一個架構就是類似我們的實體貨幣它是雙層的央行發給銀行銀行再發給人民"},{"start":12396.79,"end":12425.766,"text":"那你們做的這個初步架構呢也有去看了一下它的介面它的功能例如像是記名不記名的錢包或者是去做一些兌換轉帳消費等等等我是覺得說想要請教您一下您覺得就是簡單解釋一下這個數位新台幣跟現在使用的新台幣做的電子支付它最大最根本的差別是什麼"},{"start":12426.286,"end":12426.987,"text":"因為民眾不懂"},{"start":12436.939,"end":12465.338,"text":"是不是?對,就是我們現在要做數位貨幣跟電子支付好了,這樣子比。那我來嘗試回答,就是說委員你這樣在講就是說,譬如說我們就是說Apple Pay,你知道Apple Pay也是新台幣的那個什麼的那個的電子支付嘛,Apple Pay,NinePay,台灣Pay,這個都是。但是呢,這些的支付呢都是用銀行的貨幣。"},{"start":12467,"end":12468.381,"text":"中央銀行發行的貨幣跟他用商業銀行的貨幣去轉的基本上還是不一樣的"},{"start":12482.157,"end":12490.669,"text":"這樣子我想是很清楚的解釋那你們的推動規劃我是看到去年開始你們就是做委外的問卷調查那也預計從明年開始要開始辦公聽會、說明會等等"},{"start":12497.219,"end":12516.877,"text":"那你們應該要去辦公聽會、要去辦說明會應該會有基本資料吧?會有縮帖帶進去吧?會,我們會準備,我會有一個一套全套的資料對,那我現在就是想要了解一下因為你們在問卷調查,你們是針對不同的對象有不同的訪問的內容"},{"start":12518.959,"end":12539.331,"text":"那在這個當中我想一般大眾當然是不了解大概只有一成那產業界呢大概有多少人聽過了解產業界比較高高是多高這個我沒有關係啦大概是五成啦他是比較高那政府機關呢你覺得政府機關更高"},{"start":12541.492,"end":12558.38,"text":"對,我看到的資料也是政府機關接受度最高那我來說那個請教您一下因為我們仔細來看一般民眾當然是不認識但是做後撤之後我們發現稍加說明他有很大的一個使用意願"},{"start":12560.421,"end":12586.897,"text":"我們再來看那如果說問他的一個使用需求他們表達的大概我們可以看到接受度最高的覺得很好的應該來做的是那些有接受政府救濟的或者是中低收入部或者是越來越多我們可能會申請租金補貼的這些人然後還有一些創新功能所以請問一下這一些調查出來的需求你們有開始在做規劃了嗎"},{"start":12588.058,"end":12607.012,"text":"都有接納嗎?我跟委員報告這個就是說我們在這裡面的功能裡面我們跟數位部呢我們跟數位部現在就是說要合作一個就是說要發行這個數位券那數位券就是剛剛你現在對看起來數位券應該是券售度最高"},{"start":12608.433,"end":12626.803,"text":"對對對對所以呢這個就是說我們的CBDC的要踏出第一步他就是要從這裡來受試驗好我們也希望這個能夠成功那再請教一下齁那你們要下去做說明會那調查出來的其實大部分的人呢是擔心隱私跟個資的問題"},{"start":12628.624,"end":12654.086,"text":"所以這個部分我不曉得說你們對於這些資安的認證那怎麼樣的狀況下才調用資料等等有在做規劃了嗎有有有都有在做規劃那再請教一下我們看到產業界他的一個調查結果的衝擊我們發現基層的金融機構最擔心感覺到他受到的影響會最大請問一下基層金融機構是類似哪一些"},{"start":12655.127,"end":12667.843,"text":"我們所說的基層金融機構一般來講就是說我們的龍漁會信用部還有就是說我們的信用他擔心他的角色會弱化嗎那請問你們有在規劃要怎麼協助嗎"},{"start":12672.248,"end":12693.193,"text":"如果說一個銀行體系就是說我們的金融體系如果說足夠健全的話也就是說不會發生銀行擠兌的這種事件的話基本上他對CBDC的發行應該是不會有好那我這樣子一直問都好像都有準備了那當然政府機關我看起來他應該是覺得最輕鬆的因為他收付款的業務可能會輕鬆許多接受度比較高"},{"start":12701.755,"end":12728.988,"text":"那法律學姐的意見呢他們是認為說應該要修法有要修法嗎那當然如果說假設說我們決定要那個話那它所涉及到的很多的法都要特別是專案一覽法可能都要修法所以有已經在啟動修法的內容我們現在也就是說是在在法律方面呢我們也在做準備那什麼時候送行政院沒有沒有現在還沒有啊因為呢所以8次還沒一票沒有沒有因為"},{"start":12729.768,"end":12745.297,"text":"因為就是說我們的學界法律學界呢他也有他的看法那所以呢我們在我們的空聽會裡面呢我們就會那聽起來好像很積極啦那真的要走到修法又感覺八字還沒一點"},{"start":12747.458,"end":12766.011,"text":"好,那請教一下齁那這些資訊科技的學者呢我也要關心一下因為這個會有數位落差的問題嗎?有的人買不起手機啊那我們很多的地方網路不通啊那可以去做離線支付嗎?這些有規劃嗎?所以離線支委有在規劃離線支委有在規劃而且呢"},{"start":12769.533,"end":12769.693,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12797.708,"end":12814.258,"text":"剛才我聽了央行就是介紹準備發行數位貨幣的一些規劃跟想法那我想要特別為偏鄉來請教一下因為我們有央行總裁你們都是金融專業的人員我們已經有看到一些專題報導"},{"start":12816.039,"end":12826.918,"text":"像是中國他們是一個高度電子支付的國家很多的現在的國小的學生是從出生到現在幾乎沒有看過實體貨幣"},{"start":12829.079,"end":12845.152,"text":"那麼很多的老師也反映這個反映在學校課程的學習其實是有很大的問題狂論他們的金錢觀、理財觀、消費觀那我們看到像日本這個國家他很堅持還是使用實體的貨幣"},{"start":12847.393,"end":12874.011,"text":"我是想要請教大家因為我們有所謂的馬太效應我們很擔心像這樣的一個資本社會的這一些的發展的制度工具會讓富者更富貧窮的人會更窮那會讓有成本的人他可以全拿那這些沒有資本的人可能會難以翻身所以在這個部分我想要特別請教一下我們金管會主委"},{"start":12874.651,"end":12892.476,"text":"因為我們在教育上有所謂的一個認知發展的階段可能是從感覺運動期然後一直到國小的具體的操作期我們都會回憶我們過去學數學可能都要拿那種代幣來輔助學習我們怎麼樣認識這些貨幣"},{"start":12896.457,"end":12922.578,"text":"那更一直要到最後我們才會有所謂的形式的抽象的這種操作期可是我想要請教一下金管會我們在這個部分未來面對這樣的一個數位貨幣電子支付的發展我不曉得說金管會有沒有做過什麼樣的分析研究規劃有沒有找過數發部啊教育部啊一起來研究這些問題"},{"start":12923.559,"end":12950.965,"text":"市報委員我必須那個那個那個據實說我上來到現在我我沒有接受到訊息但並不代表沒有啦也許我們同仁可以說一下是跟委員報告我們目前是還沒有做這個研究但是我們有規劃在明年的時候會做一個金融素養的調查然後也會同時針對就是民眾針對這個數位金融的部分他們目前有碰到些什麼樣的議題所以會從這裡面再來去做研究"},{"start":12951.665,"end":12969.11,"text":"我們當然要與時俱進時間也到了但是我請我們的央行金管會跟我們的數位發布還是根據我幾點的訴求我是希望說能夠針對這一些所謂的電子支付已經在普及的國家去做一下他們的正反面的影響來提供我們做一個參考"},{"start":12972.051,"end":12988.657,"text":"那也希望能夠去評估對偏鄉弱勢族群可能帶來的正反面的影響因為我們不知道這個影響是好還是不好但是我們必須要知道未來這樣的發展會不會去造成我們對偏鄉及弱勢族群的一個傷害"},{"start":12990.098,"end":13003.939,"text":"還有我們的教育的這些單位我們都希望說能夠一起來做跨部會的一個討論因為我們其實看過去的教育我們的學校教育其實是不教不鼓勵如何賺錢啦"},{"start":13005.3,"end":13027.458,"text":"這是被隱晦不談的問題那未來這樣的一個趨勢發展它會形成什麼樣的一個落差還是說形成一個翻身的一個機會我們都不得而知所以我們希望這三個部會你們能夠去做這樣的一個報告出來那兩個月內書面答覆可以嗎?好,可以好,謝謝謝謝吳明豪我們質詢接著請謝亦鳳委員謝亦鳳委員謝亦鳳委員不在接著請盧明才、盧昭偉質詢"},{"start":13038.646,"end":13060.574,"text":"主席各位委員、初列席官員大家好主席可不可以請央行總裁有請楊金龍總裁以及數位發展部林怡靜有請林次農委員早金龍研訓院的林副院長大家好各位研訓院林副院長"},{"start":13063.474,"end":13084.755,"text":"楊總裁我們現在要開始發行數位新台幣意味著我手上的這個鈔票即將要告別慢慢的減少這是從大概我們50年前到現在現在"},{"start":13087.728,"end":13108.895,"text":"新台幣使用的情況跟現在一般民眾所用所謂的這個手機支付或者是代收代支等等很多的新的產品都出現了那現在新台幣的使用比率大概是剩下多少?這個"},{"start":13114.948,"end":13116.889,"text":"3兆多比率大概是多少?"},{"start":13145.168,"end":13145.448,"text":"禮略贊同的日記。"},{"start":13167.453,"end":13183.042,"text":"不斷的引導大家盡量不要用紙張統一發票用電子雲端的發票不要去接觸錢因為這個接觸啊鈔票變成是細菌一個很重要傳染的來源"},{"start":13183.422,"end":13198.526,"text":"不過委員講到這裡的時候我也借這個機會來澄清一下 來說明一下事實上呢在COVID-19的時候很多先進國家特別像歐洲像英格蘭還有像ECB歐元區的央行"},{"start":13205.168,"end":13223.445,"text":"他們跟我們中央銀行都一樣的,都是很關心是不是鈔卷會COVID的這個virus呢,是不是會透過鈔卷來傳遞出去。結果呢,他們那個的12實驗的結果呢,不會,很低。"},{"start":13224.682,"end":13225.985,"text":"請問一下總裁,這個病菌停留在"},{"start":13238.275,"end":13251.447,"text":"一千塊停留在鈔票上,它的存活時間有多久?很短,我想我要請我們的發行局,當時我們針對這個問題,我們都討論很久,我們也自己,來來來,我請我們的發行局來說明一下"},{"start":13262.386,"end":13278.313,"text":"因為大家都覺得這個市場有時候流流這個夜市什麼出來那起來感覺都髒髒兮兮的怕怕的報告委員這個Bengal England還是BIS他們都有研究其實鈔券的這個"},{"start":13280.287,"end":13281.428,"text":"我們看到全世界慢慢的"},{"start":13309.11,"end":13332.537,"text":"不使用鈔票用電子支付用手機支付變成是一個全世界先進國家也必須要走的一條道路是啦沒有錯委員講的都沒有錯事實上台灣也是在朝這一的方向在走那請問一下總裁最後我們看到了剛剛我手上拿的那個鈔票會不會消失不見"},{"start":13334.155,"end":13355.716,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說在我們可預見的將來我們可預見的將來鈔券還是會存在的現金還是會存在的那以10年前跟現在來比的話我們現在真正使用鈔票的比率是佔平常交易量的剩下多少%"},{"start":13356.917,"end":13362.262,"text":"但是我知道它是在下降的這個下降的比率快不快?已經超過大概剩下不到三四十趴了"},{"start":13377.873,"end":13379.674,"text":"我們同事給我們那個我們就說2017年到2023年國內現金的支付金額由6.24兆降至4.03兆"},{"start":13392.816,"end":13393.756,"text":"非現金的支付由3.09兆增至7.27兆"},{"start":13419.881,"end":13423.503,"text":"楊總裁,當你拿到了我們未來在台灣使用的數位新台幣,不知道長得什麼樣子?"},{"start":13442.686,"end":13465.06,"text":"數位新台幣,你是看不到的。看不到?是啊,你是看不到,因為它就是一個,就像一個虛擬的東西。可是我們那天去財經公司,你給我一張...但是它有錢包啊,沒有,那個是卡片。那個是卡片,那個卡片是在,我們有一個設計的那個呢,是什麼?就是..."},{"start":13466,"end":13468.002,"text":"總裁你有沒有帶那個數位新台幣的卡片?"},{"start":13488.142,"end":13500.048,"text":"沒有啦,今天抱歉啦那一天是給各位參觀的那個是不是借看一下馬上就帶了齁對啦對啦這個啦可不可以借我看一下喔來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":13518.041,"end":13527.619,"text":"手上拿到這張卡這是台灣未來發行的數位新台幣希望無窮請問楊總裁"},{"start":13530.462,"end":13548.093,"text":"當你拿到這張卡片開始使用了你第一筆在台灣你要購買什麼不過我跟委員報告這個是講離線的啦那基本上我們要發展的CBDC他是在手機裡面的啦"},{"start":13548.433,"end":13566.434,"text":"他是虛擬的啦他是數位的啦那這個呢只是說是一個離線的時候呢你可以用手機也可以用卡片那這個卡片是而不是說CPTC就是用卡片來發行的啦這個就必須要做一個明確的那個說明啦"},{"start":13567.691,"end":13595.943,"text":"那請問總裁未來的這張卡片它的最大額度是多少現在還沒有還沒有我們現在就是說我記得我記得委員也在講就是說因為有有記名不記名還有就是說額度嘛那一般來講的話都是說一萬塊嘛那我也記得委員就說這個一萬塊恐怕是太少啦不過呢這個是因為現在目前都還沒有"},{"start":13597.423,"end":13625.29,"text":"做最後的一個決定的時候事實上委員的一個意見我們會參考我們希望這個速度可以快一點因為數位台灣現在的院長他現在說是AI行動內閣如果行動內閣所有的事情這個包括使用鈔票還用30年50年的那個思維的話就跟不上潮流了"},{"start":13626.53,"end":13653.529,"text":"我想社會的支付的習慣還有數位的一個要求呢他是漸進式的而且也是在進步當中的啦也不會如果說像委員在講這個還是30年前40年前的不會因為現在的支付台灣我跟委員報告事實上呢台灣的支付呢他是多元化的那請問一下總裁未來的數位新台幣你上面"},{"start":13654.369,"end":13663.051,"text":"是要用玉山還是要用孫中山?我們在這裡我們就用我們的鈔票的那個地址那這個只是說是試驗的啦這個不是也不必當真就是說這個就是未來的那個什麼數位貨幣不是"},{"start":13677.515,"end":13698.461,"text":"那個是就是說剛剛我在澄清的就是說那個是在那個你就說在那個離線的時候這個是一個備案總裁這樣子啦因為這邊是畫一隻鳥啦我是建議因為日本最近的這個日圓啊它都在改版我建議在上面你可以放一個黃仁勳"},{"start":13701.043,"end":13721.557,"text":"因為當我們拿數字貨幣上面有黃仁勳的時候拿著這張卡到美國也可以通因為全世界現在都認識台灣之光黃仁勳所以我們希望台灣要走向世界走向AI未來10年20年的發展就是把它放上去"},{"start":13724.339,"end":13751.722,"text":"臺灣的代表性我覺得委員的建議是很有創意不過這個可以做參考啦謝謝謝謝羅明財委員的資訊請接著我們請鄭振賢委員鄭振賢委員鄭振賢委員不在侯孟凱委員侯孟凱委員侯孟凱委員不在蘇清文委員蘇清文委員蘇清文委員不在楊瓊瓊委員楊瓊瓊委員楊瓊瓊委員不在鍾佳斌委員鍾佳斌委員鍾佳斌委員不在何清春委員何清春委員何清春委員不在今日發言"},{"start":13752.623,"end":13757.827,"text":"登記委員均已詢答完畢本次會做如下決定報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":13759.618,"end":13785.827,"text":"2、委員質詢及未答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一週內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從其所定委員楊瓊英、李昆城所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆4、本次會議議程已進行完畢堂有不在場委員補提書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理。散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}