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委員長郭部長 你說核管法修法過了核三長就可以研立嘛對不對 這是你昨天去專訪以前清清楚楚說的嘛那你知道核管法最近就要三讀通過了嗎 你知道嗎我不知道"},{"start":50.493,"end":65.407,"text":"5月17號 5月16號就過 所以你到時候會兌現諾言也是為了我們企業發展 為了我們全民好河山就可以研擬 對不對在法令的規定之下 我們政府一定是在法跟規"},{"start":66.636,"end":91.111,"text":"的這個規定之下呢我們來運作啦齁那客觀法修過了我要看他修的內容是什麼我們還是要在法的框架之下去運作跳脫法的框架我們還是沒有辦法做因為我們是政府齁所以萬一沒辦法齁沒辦法請委員你講一講啊那閃的就過了沒辦法沒有啦不是閃的就過了柏定你昨天是對著全民講啊那個是一個公開的"},{"start":92.412,"end":114.057,"text":"公開的講話 我講的意思就是說我們在核管法修過以後因為修成什麼樣子我不知道但是修在我們可以依循的這個框架之內我們一定是依法行事啦框架 修法的重點就是你剛剛講的嘛它是把40年 我們本來40年要除役嘛變成60年 這個是明確有修的"},{"start":116.979,"end":130.095,"text":"第二個 我要明天跟你講事實上為什麼要這樣修 因為最近這1到3年日本就已經把它的40年改成延長到60年了美國有些廠 核電廠 還從40年已經變成80年了是跟國際接軌的 這次事實上就是你講的 我們是有修這個條文的"},{"start":136.642,"end":153.464,"text":"所以你講話你要兌現你的諾言我現在跟你講我報告委員我是政府的一份子我們一定是尊敬所有的法規來行事啦所以我對在法規之內的事情我承諾的我一定做得到"},{"start":154.045,"end":178.392,"text":"所以你承諾如果修過了就是要核酸演繹嘛不然的話你就變成耍嘴皮子的這個部長了不是耍嘴皮子喔所以你有沒有對線你昨天講的話有沒有對線核酸廠的演繹在法律規定之內的事情我承諾的我就會去做我承諾在法律規定之外的我不會去做法律規定之外的我不會做我也不承諾"},{"start":180.646,"end":205.974,"text":"因為我不知道 你現在是一個假設的命題在那裡我假設啊 條文這麼清楚啊就是你昨天對著全民講的啦40年延長到我在講的是在這個法規之內我們基本上還是那個三原則但是你修過了我那個三個原則基本上的三個原則如果今天法律的規定之內我可以做 我就做啊"},{"start":206.594,"end":228.965,"text":"你不是要在這裡說嗎 你說三個原則裡面核廢料嘛你說美國會幫我們處理嘛 對不對你剛才說的還有甘氏的這個儲存潮甘氏儲存潮不短期 甘氏儲存潮可以放50年 更重要的先進國家現在都是這樣處理嘛 對不對美國 日本 韓國 法國 它現在的核廢料放在哪裡都也是甘氏儲存潮嘛 而且可以放50年啊"},{"start":231.646,"end":254.756,"text":"我們會交給技術部門來確認我想我們也不可能我們台灣在這一方面的領域確實有一些專家但是這種事情每一個世界在世界上每一個國家他買的那個設備的時代跟機種可能不會都一樣"},{"start":256.937,"end":273.403,"text":"每一個機器都不會一樣你剛講的核廢料啦就是你剛講的嘛但是因為機器不一樣啦亂出來的核廢料委員你可能不太清楚就是每一台機器所用的這個鈾原料那個鈾棒是定做的"},{"start":274.822,"end":293.103,"text":"這個你可能不清楚我們現在說合會要處理嘛所以你剛才說了嘛你不是專訪的時候講得很清楚全美國包括AIT的處長都講了你說可以請他們幫忙處理嘛對不對啊等於全世界都是這樣放放在幹事的處分場全世界都是這樣沒有錯但是處理的方法是不一樣的嘛處理方法不會一樣啊"},{"start":297.028,"end":323.967,"text":"因為那個規格 所有的 美國可以處理日本可以處理 法國可以處理所有全世界用核能都 核廢料都可以處理現在台灣沒有辦法處理不是 台灣沒有辦法 太怪了吧沒有喔 委員你現在又在講話術了台灣可不可以處理我們尋求可以處理的方法來處理OK 好 所以你在尋求可以嘛其實 好 來那你說安不安全 柏林你知道嗎"},{"start":325.52,"end":352.798,"text":"國際原子能總署啊 對我們核電廠的評比啊是前段班欸 全世界第六名你剛才也說啊 它已經用了 全世界用了四十年啊是安全的嘛 對不對所以安全我認為沒有問題啊 核廢料問題也解決了啊第三個 等於全民共識啦你去看看那個最近的 最近這兩三年的民調都馬上是七成以上 認為要重啟核能啊欸 我們還有公投過欸 以核養綠對不對"},{"start":355.195,"end":378.72,"text":"養麗就是要用核電啊對不對那你說要全民共識這個全民共識是跟台灣民眾的全民共識還是跟賴清德跟民進黨的全民共識如果是跟全民的話那些民調都是啊那我們現在要推動要更領濟全民的共識所以我們推了一個河山研議嘛你說多此一舉這不就是要弄死你們第三項嗎委員你又講錯囉河山研議"},{"start":382.935,"end":406.377,"text":"全民共識 你剛才在講 你是講說共識這個問題不是這樣子嘛 你的意思可能是說 河山研議要不要公投啦 是不是對啦 公投就在臨近全民共識嘛所以你剛講的那三個條件都符合嘛 合會要處理安全我是講說 如果按照你的邏輯來講啦 公投是多此一舉嘛"},{"start":407.409,"end":427.37,"text":"你剛才講過了啊對不對 你剛才講過了為什麼要多此一舉就是你要公投就浪費錢啊一次就要五億然後又要花很多的時間對不對你們耐清的總統跟民進黨不就是說要有領濟全民共識嗎公投第一個是憲法附給人民的權利耶你跟民意要對上跟憲法都要對上嗎"},{"start":428.211,"end":452.901,"text":"那第二個更重要你說你要領濟全民共識公投就是一種領濟全民共識的方法啊那個委員你的主張我沒有意見只是人家主持人問我嘛我表達的意思這樣而已好不好我們意見有很多不一樣的我剛講說你們講的這三項都已經解決了然後你要公開講說這個核管法因為你的目的通過之後就是要沒有沒有保定我已經講過囉核管法其實要通過"},{"start":455.882,"end":478.169,"text":"核管法通過那一天院長也在大院裡面講得非常的清楚核管法通過的時候是大家理性討論然後通過的他不會復議啊你們講說通過你也來復議嗎我跟委員報告你可以問院長這是他講的話我想那個也有記錄嘛所以我"},{"start":480.744,"end":488.302,"text":"對我來講我的基本原則是這樣子報告委員我們基本原則是這樣在法律的規定之下我們不會預法"},{"start":489.861,"end":507.867,"text":"也不會越法我們一定會按照法律核准的範圍裡面去試做這個就是我們公務同仁做事情的一個依規嘛依法就是依核管法嘛現在全民在看我們經濟部長講話算話嗎經濟部長能夠講話不算話嗎現在全民希望你講出人民的需求只要在法律的規定之內我講的話都算數"},{"start":518.271,"end":543.932,"text":"算數嘛對不對 所以現在錢比方看你會不會變成 又縮斷了不是啦 說回去又變成是一個耍嘴皮子 耍嘴皮子的這個步伐 懷疑這個懷疑那個委員 懷疑那個沒有意義啦你為什麼不懷疑說太陽從西邊出來來 保定 你也是重點嘛 你說河冷五月全部歸零以後啊不會對空氣有影響我給你看一下喔 去年河山廠的一號機"},{"start":548.194,"end":557.565,"text":"除以以後 你馬上跟麥寮電廠就續約啦麥寮電廠燒沒了 對不對這對空氣有沒有影響所以那一天有17個團體喔彰化 雲林 嘉義還有17個團體的民眾到行政院跟"},{"start":568.317,"end":579.85,"text":"監察院來抗議他們講什麼經濟部縱容繼續燒煤本來已經停了嘛我們賣了本來已經停了結果就是因為河山場一號機停了以後你看就是一個對比嘛繼續去買這個賣了的慢性殺人"},{"start":583.194,"end":608.896,"text":"他說每多發一度的這個煤就在155公里的麥寮電廠污染範圍之內這是無差別持續在射殺國人的生命這是一個慢性的殺人麥寮是全台灣第二大污染源這什麼空氣會好呢你從去年的麥寮就看出來它是有問題的"},{"start":611.36,"end":636.393,"text":"你一直在講說天然氣是乾淨的,還有低碳的天然氣我給大家看一個數據,這是台電的數據啦台電112年火力發電的排放量在空氣污染這部分啊,燃氣就是天然氣喔它是燃煤的,在氮氧化物啊,它是燃煤的47%,不是沒有啊"},{"start":639.392,"end":652.918,"text":"燃煤0.173 燃氣是0.082 是有喔 差不多一半另外呢 PM10 就是悬浦的這個微粒燃煤是0.005 燃氣是多少 0.004 85%天然氣沒有什麼乾淨的 沒有乾淨的天然氣啦"},{"start":662.366,"end":686.493,"text":"他還是有汙染啊對不對他如果跟咱們也比稍微低一點點我們從來沒有講過說天然氣是零碳的你不要把我們說低碳的東西你把它講成零碳這個就是完全用化術對嘛不是化術嘛不一定不一定我們是理性物質科學在討論嘛你說郭志輝講說不會對空氣有什麼影響嘛我現在跟你說就是有影響嘛"},{"start":687.435,"end":705.765,"text":"我剛才給你一個很清楚的數據啊你這麼計較這個有影響 微量影響 稍微影響都要這樣子表示我們會依據你希望表達的方式先分歧 你認為我們應該分歧幾這個影響很大嘛 我剛剛跟你講你賣了 你賣了都會用 賣了繼續用賣了繼續用 我們跟台電是一個團體"},{"start":714.369,"end":729.347,"text":"我們跟他的契約行為政府不能夠違反契約行為喔所以你不能用這一個每一次你都用那個契約行為就是到去年的4月就停了嘛你們是重新又去續的一個月發貴啊我"},{"start":732.47,"end":734.051,"text":"政府看的契約我們有多少的人在看政府可以違反這個契約嗎"},{"start":751.687,"end":769.819,"text":"政府可以違反契約嗎 否定 否定你在這個契約上面再知道 去年的重點是什麼就是麥寮跟台電本來合約已經停了嘛 對不對 是不是這樣25年嘛 那就是因為你核電廠 核伊林被關掉之後你去拿了這個東西又來 又去買 又繼續買啊 買到今年年底啊"},{"start":771.328,"end":792.452,"text":"所以你人民跟社團都上來抗議啊我都知情過你啊所以當然對我們的健康對空氣有影響對不對第二個我今天拿的是你們台電的資料天然氣也是有汙染它當然比這個煤稍微低一點點可是還是有對不對它如果跟核電比當然會增加很多所以我現在是要跟你講你不要講說空氣沒有變好"},{"start":797.574,"end":811.847,"text":"好啦因為我本來要問其他的時間已經到了啦現在最重要的啦5月17號核光法就過了就看你到底能不能讓核三嚴厲現在全民都在看不要變成耍嘴彼此的這個經濟鋪葬第二個核三"},{"start":813.992,"end":831.105,"text":"廠停了之後5月17號之後我們變成非核加鹽我們的電價不只變貴了成本增加了嘛空氣污染也增加5月17號以後你看我會不會漲價啦好不好5月18號各位可以看一下喔5月18號看我們電價有沒有漲如果電價有漲"},{"start":832.546,"end":843.8,"text":"5月18號那天電價有漲我下台好不好5月18號以後沒有漲請委員你說回這句話部長你為什麼要壓5月18號你不是一直在講10月10月份可能電價審議委員會開完以後電價審議委員會什麼時候開沒有錯"},{"start":848.106,"end":860.238,"text":"電價審議委會什麼時候開電價審議委會你可以講電價審議委會什麼時候開電價審議委會九月底才開啊沒有開怎麼上架那你這不劃數嗎你要檢視 你要駁定你要檢視的是五一七之後那個十月份會不會漲駁定 你要五月十七一號十月份會不會漲電價你說五月十七一號會起價啊那是你說的啊"},{"start":872.17,"end":889.048,"text":"你馬上會第一時間就找嗎你當然開定價審議委員會啊所以人民要問你的事你每一次講話都是講第二天以後會變怎麼樣大委員大部長那是不是我們現在我們把時間對待主席要講了啦保證 人民要看你的是10月1號有沒有上架啦OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":145,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時26分）請郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：郭部長，你說核管法如果修法過了，核三廠就可以延役，對不對？這是你昨天接受專訪的時候清清楚楚說的。你知道核管法最近就要三讀通過了嗎？你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我不知道。"],["張委員啓楷：5月17號就會過，所以到時候你要兌現諾言，為了我們企業發展、為了全民好，核三就可以延役，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：在法令的規定之下，我們政府一定是在法跟規的規定之下來運作，核管法修過了，我們要看它修的內容是什麼，我們還是要在法的框架之下去運作，跳脫法的框架，我們還是沒有辦法做，因為我們是政府，所以我們沒有辦法像委員說的，閃了就過，沒辦法！"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，不是閃了就過，部長，你昨天是對著全民講，那是一個公開的講話，對不對？你說的是核管法……"],["郭部長智輝：是呀，我講的意思就是我們在核管法修過以後，因為修成什麼樣子，我們不知道，但是修在我們可以依循的框架之內，我們一定是依法行事。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，這次修法的重點就是你昨天講的，就是我們本來40年要除役，把40年變成60年，這個是明確有修的。第二個，我要明確跟你講，事實上為什麼這樣修？因為最近這一到三年日本就已經把它的40年延長到60年了，美國有些核電廠還從40年變成80年了，是跟國際接軌的。事實上就是你講的，我們是有修這個條文的，所以你講話要兌現你的諾言，我現在是跟你講，5月17號之後……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我是政府的一分子，我們一定是遵定所有的法規來行事，所以我對在法規之內的事情、我承諾的，我一定做得到。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，所以你承諾如果修過了，核三就要延役，要不然的話，你就變成耍嘴皮子的部長了，你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是耍嘴皮子，我還是一樣，在法律……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你有沒有要兌現你昨天講的話？有沒有要兌現核三廠的延役？"],["郭部長智輝：在法律規定之內的事情，我承諾的，我就會去做；我承諾在法律規定之外的，我不會去做。法律規定之外的，我不會做，我也不承諾，因為我不知道……你現在是一個假設性的命題在那裡……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有假設，條文這麼清楚啊！就是你昨天對著全民講的，40年延長到……"],["郭部長智輝：我在講的是在這個法規之內，我們基本上還是那個三原則，但是你修過了，那個三個原則，基本上的三個原則……如果今天法律的規定之內我可以做，我就做啊。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你不是直接說，你說三個原則裡面，核廢料，你說美國會幫我們處理，對不對？你剛才說的還有乾式的貯存槽，部長，乾式貯存槽不是短期的耶，乾式貯存槽可以放50年，更重要的是，先進國家現在都是這樣處理，對不對？美國、日本、韓國、法國現在的核廢料放在哪裡？都是放在乾式貯存槽，而且可以放50年，全世界都這樣做，所以就是你剛剛講的……"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們會交給技術部門來確認，我想我們也不可能……我們臺灣在這方面的領域確實有一些專家，但是這種事情，在世界上每一個國家買的設備的時代跟機種可能不會都一樣，就是每一個機器都不會一樣，產生的核廢料……"],["張委員啓楷：你說核廢料，就是你剛剛講的。"],["郭部長智輝：每個機器不一樣，run出來的核廢料……委員，你可能不太清楚，就是每一台機器所用的鈾原料、鈾棒是訂做的，這個你可能不清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：我知道，我們現在是講核廢料的處理，所以你剛才有說了……"],["郭部長智輝：是，我的意思是說訂做的東西……"],["張委員啓楷：你不是在專訪的時候講得很清楚，包括美國AIT的處長都講了，你說可以請他們幫我們處理，對不對？第二個，全世界都是這樣放，放在乾式的貯存槽……"],["郭部長智輝：全世界都是這樣沒有錯，但是處理的方法是不一樣的，處理方法不會一樣。另外，那個規格，所有的鈾原料……"],["張委員啓楷：美國可以處理，日本可以處理，法國可以處理，所有全世界用核能的，核廢料都可以處理，現在只有臺灣沒辦法處理，這太怪了吧！"],["郭部長智輝：不是臺灣沒有辦法……沒有，委員，你現在又在講話術了。臺灣可不可以處理？我們尋求可以處理的方法來處理。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，好，所以你在尋求可以……你說安不安全？部長，你知道嗎？國際原子能總署對我們核電廠的評比是前段班，全世界第6名。你剛才也說了，全世界已經用了40年，是安全的，對不對？所以安全我認為沒有問題，核廢料問題也解決了，第三個就是全民共識。你去看看最近這二、三年的民調，都是七成以上認為要重啟核能，我們還有公投過耶！以核養綠，對不對？以核養綠就是要用核電，對不對？你說要有全民共識，這個全民共識是臺灣民眾的全民共識，還是賴清德跟民進黨的全民共識？如果是全民的話，那些民調都是啊！我們現在要推動、要更凝聚全民的共識，所以我們推了一個核三延役，你說多此一舉，這不就是要落實你們的第三項嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，你講錯了，核三延役，全民共識，你剛才在講……你是講共識這個問題，哪有什麼你推核三延後……"],["張委員啓楷：凝聚你們的全民共識嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：不是這樣子嘛！你的意思可能是核三延役要不要公投，是不是？"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，公投就是要凝聚全民共識嘛！所以你剛剛講的那三個條件都符合：核廢料的處理、安全……"],["郭部長智輝：我是講如果按照你的邏輯來講，公投是多此一舉嘛！你剛才說過了，對不對？你剛才說過了嘛。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼多此一舉？"],["郭部長智輝：公投就浪費錢啊，一次就要5億，然後又要花很多的時間，對不對？"],["張委員啓楷：你們賴清德總統跟民進黨不是說要凝聚全民共識嗎？公投，第一個，是憲法賦予人民的權利，你要跟民意對撞、跟憲法對撞嗎？第二個更重要，你說要凝聚全民共識，公投就是一種凝聚全民共識的方法啊！"],["郭部長智輝：委員，你的主張我沒有意見，只是人家主持人問我，我表達的意思是這樣，好不好？我們的意見有很多不一樣的地方。"],["張委員啓楷：今天最重要的就是我剛剛提到你們講的這三項都已經解決了，然後你又公開講說核管法通過之後就是要……"],["郭部長智輝：因為你的目的……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，部長，這很重要喔，人民現在……"],["郭部長智輝：我已經講過了，核管法只要通過，核管法通過……那一天院長也在大院裡面講得非常清楚，核管法通過的時候，是大家理性討論通過的，他不會覆議。你們講說通過之後，我們會不會來覆議？我跟委員報告，你可以問院長，這是他講的話，我想也有紀錄嘛……"],["張委員啓楷：對，他不會覆議，很好。"],["郭部長智輝：所以對我來講，我的基本原則是這樣子，報告委員，我們的基本原則是這樣，在法律的規定之下，我們不會逾法，也不會越法，我們一定會按照法律核准的範圍裡面去施作，這個就是我們公務同仁做事情的依歸嘛。"],["張委員啓楷：對，依法就是依核管法嘛，現在全民在看經濟部部長講話算話嗎？是講話算法，還是耍嘴皮子？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部部長能夠講話不算話嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：5月17號就見真章嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：不是，經濟部部長，我講的話……"],["張委員啓楷：現在全民希望你講出人民的需求、企業的需求，人民就……"],["郭部長智輝：我講的話，只要在法律規定之內，我講的話都算數！"],["張委員啓楷：算數，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：算數。"],["張委員啓楷：所以現在全民看你會不會又縮回去，變成耍嘴皮子的部長……"],["郭部長智輝：不是，你不要這麼會懷疑啦，我都覺得你每天都在懷疑這個、懷疑那個。委員，懷疑那個沒有意義啦，了解嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：好，另外一個也很重要的……"],["郭部長智輝：你為什麼不懷疑太陽從西邊出來？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，另外一個重點，你說核能5月全部歸零以後不會對空氣有影響，我給你看一下，去年核三廠一號機除役以後，你馬上跟麥寮電廠續約了，麥寮電廠是燒煤的，對空氣有沒有影響？所以那一天有來自彰化、雲林、嘉義等17個團體的民眾到行政院及監察院抗議，他們說經濟部縱容繼續燒煤，麥寮電廠本來已經停了，結果因為核三廠一號機除役以後，你看這就是對比，繼續去買麥寮電廠的電。每多發1度煤電就是在155公里的麥寮電廠污染範圍之內，無差別持續射殺國人的生命，這是慢性殺人，麥寮是全臺灣第二大污染源，為什麼空氣會好呢？從去年的麥寮電廠就看出它是有問題的。","然後部長一直說天然氣是乾淨的，還有低碳天然氣，我給大家看一個數據，這是台電的數據，台電112年火力發電排放量，在空氣污染部分，燃氣（天然氣）的氮氧化物是燃煤的47%，不是沒有，燃煤是0.173、燃氣是0.082，差不多一半。另外，在懸浮微粒（PM10）的部分，燃煤是0.005、燃氣是0.004，占85%，沒有什麼乾淨的天然氣，還是有污染，對不對？如果跟燃煤比稍微低一點點，可是還是有污染。"],["郭部長智輝：我們從來沒有講過天然氣是零碳的，你不要把我說低碳的東西講成零碳，這個完全是用話術在問我問題。"],["張委員啓楷：不是話術。部長，我們是理性、務實、科學在討論，郭智輝說不會對空氣有什麼影響，我現在要跟你說的就是有影響，我剛才也給你很清楚的數據，有影響，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：你這麼計較有影響、微量影響、稍微影響，都要這樣子表示，我們會依據你希望表達的方式先分級，你認為我們應該分幾級？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這個影響很大。"],["郭部長智輝：你認為分幾級才算影響很大？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我剛剛跟你講了，麥寮電廠繼續用，全臺灣第二大污染源……"],["郭部長智輝：麥寮繼續用的部分是我們跟台電之間的契約行為，這是我們跟它的契約行為，政府不能夠違反契約行為，所以你不能「竹篙鬥菜刀」，你每一次都用「竹篙鬥菜刀」。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，契約行為到去年4月就停了，你們是重新又去續了一個約。"],["郭部長智輝：請問你有看過那個契約嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：有啊，看過。台電的總經理……這個案子我追了那麼久，我還問過你，你怎麼問我有沒有看過？"],["郭部長智輝：委員可能沒有看得很清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：我們追這個案子追了兩、三個月，當初我還質詢過你，契約你看過，我也看過。"],["郭部長智輝：政府看的契約，我們有多少人在看，政府可以違反這個契約嗎？政府可以違反契約嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你在這個契約上面繞，去年的重點是什麼？就是麥寮跟台電25年的合約本來已經停了，是不是這樣？因為核電廠被關掉之後，你拿了這個東西又繼續買，買到今年年底，所以人民跟社團都上來抗議了，這些我都質詢過你，當然對我們的健康、對空氣有影響，對不對？","第二個，我今天拿的是你們台電的資料，天然氣也是有污染，比燃煤稍微低一點點，可是還是有，對不對？如果跟核電比當然就增加很多，所以我現在是要跟你講，你不要講空氣沒有……"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我也沒有必要在這裡跟你就形容詞在辯異，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！因為我本來要問其他的，時間已經到了，部長，現在最重要的是5月17日核管法就過了，就看你到底能不能讓核三延役，現在全民都在看，不要變成耍嘴皮子的經濟部長。第二個，核三廠停了之後，5月17日之後我們變成非核家園，我們的電價不只變貴了，成本增加了，空氣污染也增加了。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，5月17日以後你看我會不會漲價，各位可以看一下5月18日我們電價有沒有漲，如果電價有漲，5月18日那天電價有漲，我下臺，好不好？5月18日以後沒有漲，請委員收回這句話。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你為什麼要押5月18日？你不是一直在講10月份電價審議委員會開完以後，電價審議委員會什麼時候開？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有錯，你可以講電價審議委員會……"],["張委員啓楷：電價審議委員會什麼時候開？"],["郭部長智輝：電價審議委員會9月底才開。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有開怎麼漲價，你這不是話術嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：你才話術啦！你現在講5月17日之後就會漲價……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你要檢視的是5月17日之後到10月份會不會漲。"],["郭部長智輝：你剛剛是用文字在敘述……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，10月份會不會漲電價？"],["郭部長智輝：你說5月17日以後會漲價，這是你說的，我說5月18日沒漲價……"],["張委員啓楷：5月17日之後馬上會第一時間就漲嗎？你當然開電價審議委員會，所以人民要問你的是10月……"],["郭部長智輝：你每一次講話都是講第二天以後會不會怎麼樣。"],["主席：大委員、大部長，是不是我們現在……"],["張委員啓楷：主席講話了，部長，人民要看的是10月1日有沒有漲價，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請鄭正鈐委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴瑞隆","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","羅廷瑋","林岱樺"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員魯明哲等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本\n院委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}