{"error":false,"id":["160854"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":160854,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160854","日期":"2025-05-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-3-19-11","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":3,"會次":11,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-05-01T09:54:44+08:00","結束時間":"2025-05-01T10:02:40+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:56","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc04f5eb2d12d7efd3c4de01e9c6ce952975d77c67688655a421c9e0eb0984d72d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"09:54:44 - 10:02:40","會議時間":"2025-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員魯明哲等 19 人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員謝衣鳯等 17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.13909375,"end":12.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.429718750000003,"end":13.902218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.037218750000001,"end":16.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.85534375,"end":17.395343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.03659375,"end":18.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.75346875,"end":23.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.96409375,"end":23.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.55034375,"end":28.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.000968750000002,"end":33.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.62909375,"end":34.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.82721875,"end":36.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.27409375,"end":38.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.72534375,"end":42.977843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.416593750000004,"end":46.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.875968750000006,"end":50.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.111593750000004,"end":52.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.13221875,"end":54.570968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.95909375,"end":57.962843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.469093750000006,"end":58.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.66721875,"end":61.30409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.79346875,"end":64.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.979093750000004,"end":61.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.32471875,"end":69.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.97784375,"end":71.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.00284375000001,"end":75.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.71534375,"end":77.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.12409375,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.99284375,"end":83.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.43971875000001,"end":85.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.41846875,"end":86.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.03846875,"end":88.01721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.42221875,"end":89.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.63284375,"end":91.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.96596875,"end":92.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.24846875,"end":96.87659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.25596875000001,"end":102.98534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.59284375,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.26721875000001,"end":114.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.16909375,"end":116.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.07596875,"end":119.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.14721875000001,"end":121.56471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.26909375000001,"end":124.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.24346875,"end":126.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.30659375,"end":126.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.76221875,"end":127.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.70721875000001,"end":127.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.09534375,"end":128.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.12909375,"end":128.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.04034375,"end":129.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.05284375000002,"end":137.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.06971875000002,"end":130.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.85409375,"end":133.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.60846875000001,"end":139.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.97534375,"end":140.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.83596875,"end":140.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.85284375,"end":142.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.82284375,"end":146.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.31596875,"end":148.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.75034375,"end":150.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.40409375000002,"end":155.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.88846875000002,"end":161.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.70596875,"end":163.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.93784375,"end":166.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.77284375000002,"end":170.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.38409375,"end":170.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.41784375,"end":173.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.47221875000002,"end":175.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.73346875000001,"end":180.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.34034375000002,"end":183.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.98534375,"end":186.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.87096875,"end":188.64284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.72284375,"end":191.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.00096875,"end":194.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.17346875,"end":200.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.96159375000002,"end":202.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.34096875,"end":205.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.09159375000002,"end":209.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.33159375000002,"end":211.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.27221875,"end":212.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.82471875000002,"end":213.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.49534375000002,"end":214.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.25034375,"end":216.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.21221875,"end":220.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.21159375000002,"end":222.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.20284375000003,"end":224.04659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.36721875,"end":225.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.05471875,"end":226.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.84784375,"end":228.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.64909375000002,"end":230.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.16784375,"end":232.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.63159375,"end":238.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.96409375000002,"end":242.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.09034375000002,"end":241.36034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.31784375,"end":244.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.65096875,"end":245.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.81534375,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.66721875000002,"end":248.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.12284375000002,"end":250.20284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.85659375000003,"end":252.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.12221875000003,"end":255.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.92346875,"end":257.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.04971875,"end":262.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.92221875,"end":270.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.06034375,"end":271.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.81971875,"end":272.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.93346875000003,"end":276.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.57409375000003,"end":278.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.73409375,"end":281.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.60284375000003,"end":283.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.10471875,"end":287.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.54721875,"end":289.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.48784375,"end":291.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.00221875,"end":296.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.89596875,"end":299.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.83221875000004,"end":303.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.09784375000004,"end":301.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.56159375000004,"end":308.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.16409375,"end":311.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.52221875000004,"end":313.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.07471875000005,"end":314.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.74534375,"end":318.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.76596875,"end":319.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.94721875000005,"end":323.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.25034375,"end":328.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.72221875,"end":330.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.88221875000005,"end":331.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.62471875,"end":332.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.27846875,"end":335.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.19784375,"end":338.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.33659375,"end":340.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.86346875000004,"end":344.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.53409375,"end":345.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.64784375000005,"end":347.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.33096875,"end":350.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.19534375,"end":355.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.94159375000004,"end":356.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.59534375000004,"end":360.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.66221875,"end":362.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.11346875000004,"end":364.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.51409375000003,"end":366.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.07909375,"end":369.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.15034375000005,"end":371.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.77034375000005,"end":375.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.85409375,"end":377.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.28409375,"end":379.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.14034375,"end":384.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.01721875000004,"end":387.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.46409375,"end":387.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.05471875,"end":392.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.08346875,"end":393.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.38284375,"end":396.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.55534375,"end":399.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.83346875,"end":402.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.09034375000005,"end":404.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.92534375,"end":406.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.14034375,"end":411.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.82721875000004,"end":414.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.43034375,"end":416.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.33284375000005,"end":418.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.49284375,"end":419.83034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.06659375000004,"end":424.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.99409375000005,"end":425.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.88846875,"end":428.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.16659375,"end":428.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.55471875,"end":429.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.07346875,"end":430.37721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.74846875000003,"end":432.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.62159375000005,"end":434.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.62534375,"end":439.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.94096875,"end":441.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.34159375,"end":443.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.26534375000006,"end":446.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.23534375,"end":449.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.72846875000005,"end":454.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.77846875,"end":455.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.06096875000003,"end":457.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.24221875,"end":458.18721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.11971875,"end":460.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.51596875,"end":463.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.09784375000004,"end":473.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.15534375000004,"end":474.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.26909375,"end":475.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.62346875000003,"end":475.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.39971875000003,"end":475.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.00721875000005,"end":476.31096875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.368,"end":35.414,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長還有能源署署長部長好 辛苦了今天談這個再生能源發展條例的條文修正我要談的主要是再生能源之中的低熱能"},{"start":37.315,"end":51.205,"text":"那地熱能指源自地表以下蘊含於土壤岩石蒸氣或溫泉之能源那我主要是談這個溫泉跟溫泉有關的這個地熱能這個"},{"start":55.034,"end":83.052,"text":"地熱電廠進駐部落原住民的部落這個相關的這些統計經濟部地熱裝置延命會的統計是全國有六成七在延鄉部落這樣的一個這麼大的比例延鄉已經出現翻天覆地的變化我們看這個台灣地圖我們看這個台灣地圖裡面"},{"start":84.488,"end":94.413,"text":"地熱能目前地熱發電案的這些六成七就在我們的鹽鄉部落"},{"start":99.295,"end":118.064,"text":"我們看再生能源發展條例第十四條第二項設置再生能源發電設備與原住民族土地或部落及其周邊一定範圍內之公有土地者應依原住民族基本法第二十一條規定辦理這裡面談的是再生能源發電設備請問這個署長"},{"start":123.328,"end":141.421,"text":"所以那個起地熱的那個位置就不算?鑽井的地方是算的,鑽井的地方跟發電的地方都是屬於發電設備的一部分現在就出現在這個研究法21條"},{"start":143.871,"end":166.197,"text":"因為這個當然跟經濟部沒有關係啊當時被這個誤解了這條條文啊因為這條條文是我在第八屆的時候提出來修正的所以不包含這個私有土地是其實是錯誤的這個當然跟你們沒有關係啊好再次認為發展條例第十五條之五"},{"start":166.843,"end":191.621,"text":"也規定申請地熱能探勘席可或開發席可之內容涉及這個原住民族土地或部落及其作為一定範圍內之公有土地者申請的應以申請前依研究法21條規定辦理所以這個探勘席可就包含這個就是地熱的那個位置嘛是吧包括鑽井的位置 鑽井的位置嘛"},{"start":192.102,"end":214.578,"text":"所以他不是只有在他那個那個那個廠房的地方嗎是是包含所以這個部分這個要把它釐清所以你們在在處理的時候因為你們核准都是你們所以這個部分是要把它弄清楚因為基本上那個"},{"start":216.534,"end":231.514,"text":"溫泉因為我講的是溫泉跟地熱因為地熱屬於溫泉知道嗎是地熱屬於溫泉所以這樣一個情形之下那個專警或是探勘"},{"start":233.643,"end":260.561,"text":"很少在私有土地,都是在公有土地基本上是這樣所以這個部分在審核的時候務必要讓業者能夠了解接下來這是我們需要去努力的地方也希望朝這個方向等一下條文我也給部長還有署長看"},{"start":263.976,"end":276.164,"text":"在紐西蘭台灣跟紐西蘭差不多一樣大部分地熱都是在原住民族的土地上所以這個紐西蘭一開始也是發生了很大的激烈抗爭"},{"start":278.105,"end":302.706,"text":"紐西蘭政府因應這些地熱的開發所以它這個建立了一個夥伴關係信託模式股份的讓一所以紐西蘭地熱發電占比從7%攀升到20%所以它有這樣的一個怎麼樣讓一個地熱開發能夠有效然後不要影響到我們"},{"start":303.627,"end":329.752,"text":"原住民族的部落那當然就是要諮商同意那相關的這些開發的這些利益怎麼樣回饋給部落所以這個部分這個是我們要努力的地方然後怎麼樣去因應去修法這個都是有它的必要性好也有可以是不是可以直接試用我接下來看"},{"start":331.67,"end":360.684,"text":"过去我在中央人民会服务的时候去协调同样是经济部的单位的水利署当时来我来看温泉法第三条温泉最后一句话温泉的定义包括地热蒸汽地热然后现在就是这个第八款温泉使用事业指温泉起工事业温泉起工事业第七款"},{"start":361.705,"end":362.293,"text":"二字指"},{"start":363.314,"end":392.34,"text":"溫泉啟工事業是以啟得溫泉水錢或礦業錢提供自己或他人使用的事業溫泉使用事業指溫泉啟工事業獲得溫泉作為地熱利用啊作為地熱利用啊因為這個法不是農研署的法啊所以你們沒有接觸過啊所以我現在把這個這樣的一個啊法律讓這個署長那個了解讓部長那個了解啊"},{"start":393.103,"end":418.182,"text":"好 接下來溫泉法第十一條當初我協調後來在立法院也三讀通過的條文啊這裡面就提到這個像溫泉企工失業收起的這個溫泉使用費啊由那個經濟部訂然後呢 第二項溫泉使用費"},{"start":420.217,"end":446.353,"text":"除支付管理費用外因專攻溫泉資源保育所以要把這些溫泉啟用費要提撥到原住民族綜合發展基金作為原住民族發展經濟及文化產業之用所以這個部分怎麼樣在還沒有再生能源發展條例還沒有修之前"},{"start":447.347,"end":474.146,"text":"是不是可以用這個條文因為現在正在開發現在開始了所以這個部分署長你跟這個跟那個水利署因為我公務員出身就是跟水利署是謝謝委員這個我想我們研究一下然後再請教這個委員你過去的經驗大家來努力朝這個方向來做好謝謝謝謝委員好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":299,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（9時54分）主席、各位委員。有請部長及能源署署長。"],["主席：請郭部長及李代理署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好、署長好，辛苦了。大家辛苦了！今天談再生能源發展條例修正案，我要談的主要是再生能源之中的地熱能，地熱能的定義是指源自地表以下蘊含於土壤、岩石、蒸氣或溫泉之能源，而我主要是談與溫泉有關的地熱能。","根據地熱電廠進駐原住民部落的相關統計，以經濟部地熱裝置來說，原民會的統計是全國有六成七設在原鄉部落，這麼大的比例，原鄉已經出現翻天覆地的變化。部長，請看螢幕上的簡報，以這張臺灣地圖來說，我們可以看到臺灣地圖上標註地熱發電案場的現況，有六成七就在我們的原鄉部落。再生能源發展條例第十四條第二項規定「設置再生能源發電設備於原住民族土地或部落及其周邊一定範圍內之公有土地者，應依原住民族基本法第二十一條規定辦理。」這裡面談的是再生能源發電設備，請問署長，取地熱的那個位置就不算？還是有包含？"],["李代理署長君禮：算，鑽井的地方是算的，鑽井的地方跟發電的地方都是屬於發電設備的一部分。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，現在問題就是出在原基法第二十一條，這個當然跟經濟部沒有關係，當時這條條文被誤解了，因為這條條文是我在第8屆的時候提出來修正的，所以不包含私有土地其實是錯誤的，當然這個跟你們沒有關係。","再生能源發展條例第十五條之五也規定「申請地熱能探勘許可或開發許可之內容涉及原住民族土地或部落及其周邊一定範圍內之公有土地者，申請人應於申請前依原住民族基本法第二十一條規定辦理。」所以探勘許可就包含地熱的位置嘛，是不是？"],["李代理署長君禮：包括鑽井的位置。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：包括鑽井的位置嘛，所以不是只有在它廠房的位置嘛。"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：是包含，這個部分要把它釐清，所以你們在處理的時候，因為核准的都是你們嘛，這個部分要把它弄清楚，因為基本上，那個溫泉，因為我講的是溫泉跟地熱，因為地熱屬於溫泉，知道嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：地熱屬於溫泉嘛，所以在這樣一個情形之下，鑽井或是探勘很少是在私有土地上，都是在公有土地啦，基本上是這樣，所以這個部分在審核的時候務必要讓業者能夠了解。"],["李代理署長君禮：會。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：接下來，這是我們需要去努力的地方，也希望朝這個方向，當然等一下我也會把條文拿給部長跟署長看。在紐西蘭，臺灣跟紐西蘭差不多一樣，大部分地熱都是在原住民族的土地上，紐西蘭一開始也是發生了很大激烈的抗爭，紐西蘭政府因應這些地熱的開發，它跟毛利族建立了夥伴關係，採信託模式、股份讓與，所以紐西蘭地熱發電的占比從7%攀升到20%，它有這樣一個怎麼讓地熱開發能夠有效且不要影響到原住民族部落的方式，當然就是要諮商同意，相關開發的這些利益怎麼樣回饋給部落，這個部分是我們要努力的地方，怎麼樣去因應、去修法，這個都有它的必要性，是不是可以直接適用？","接下來，我們看一下過去我在中央原民會服務的時候，去協調同樣是經濟部的單位水利署。溫泉法第三條是定義規定，有關溫泉的定義是包含地熱（蒸氣）。另外，第七款規定「溫泉取供事業：指以取得溫泉水權或礦業權，提供自己或他人使用之事業。」第八款規定「溫泉使用事業：指自溫泉取供事業獲得溫泉，作為觀光休閒遊憩、農業栽培、地熱利用……」，因為這個法不是能源署的法，所以你們沒有接觸過，我現在是把這個法律提出來讓署長跟部長能夠了解。","溫泉法第十一條是當初我去協調，後來在立法院三讀通過的條文。第十一條裡面就提到「主管機關應向溫泉取供事業或個人徵收溫泉取用費；其徵收方式、範圍、費率及使用辦法，由中央主管機關定之」，也就是由經濟部定之；然後第二項規定「溫泉取用費，除支付管理費用外，應專供溫泉資源保育……不得挪為他用。但位於原住民族地區內所徵收溫泉取用費，應提撥至少三分之一納入行政院原住民族綜合發展基金，作為原住民族發展經濟及文化產業之用」。所以這個部分，在再生能源發展條例還沒有修正之前，是不是可以用這個條文？因為現在正在開發嘛，現在開始了，所以這個部分，署長跟水利署，因為我是公務員出身，我知道這個是要去跟水利署……"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員，這個我想我們來研究一下，然後再請教委員過去的經驗，大家努力朝這個方向來做。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請呂玉玲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴瑞隆","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","羅廷瑋","林岱樺"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員魯明哲等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本\n院委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}