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美里島電子報在今年的7月2號發布他最新的一個調查他問立法院該不該去處理這個核電演繹的相關立法高達64%的受訪者支持立法院應該要來做核電演繹的一個修法"},{"start":2644.204,"end":2650.247,"text":"所以如果你不相信美麗島電子報行政院趕快去做調查去做民調啊不能嗎天天在講說要有社會共識社會已經有共識了60%不是共識嗎好那過去呢大家常常講說哎呀可是周邊都反對啊好我直接告訴大家"},{"start":2666.381,"end":2678.867,"text":"現在我們在做河山廠的一號機的這個廚藝結果呢現在地方的其實支持支持能夠繼續然後恆春鎮長他說啊河山研議是在地人的希望啊這是恆春鎮長事實上呢在周邊四個鄉鎮以河山廠周邊四個鄉鎮恆春鎮"},{"start":2696.124,"end":2717.398,"text":"牡丹鄉、滿洲鄉、還有車城的居民都認為河山場應該要研議。」所以我覺得很奇怪我們的屏東的民意代表為什麼沒有辦法去反映這幾個鄉鎮他們居民的一個意見跟看法呢?但是我們看到了"},{"start":2718.098,"end":2722.459,"text":"我們要幫他們反應為民喉舌所以這是我們今天為什麼來趕快來討論相關的我們核電研議的相關條例以上的說明也希望行政院剛才如同翁曉琳委員講的其實我們今天修的法你們還要啟動相關的行政程序包含核安還有包含準備其實都有相關的行政程序所以我們"},{"start":2746.627,"end":2769.473,"text":"在法能夠通過之後讓我們的台電跟經濟部能夠為我們所有這樣的一個台灣不缺電能夠供電足夠逐一因應我們相關的政策來做好準備以上謝謝好謝謝王鴻薇委員現在呢我們就請核能安全委員會的陳主任委員進行報告報告時間8分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2780.742,"end":2791.545,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生大家好今天貴委員會審查王鴻薇委員等19人、邱鎮軍委員等22人、蘇清泉委員等26人"},{"start":2795.024,"end":2816.567,"text":"羅志強委員等21人以及翁曉琳委員等19人分別擬具的《核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案》本會受邀列席報告自感榮幸首先對於大院委員對核能安全委員會的各項工作的支持及指教至上敬意及謝承"},{"start":2817.708,"end":2844.993,"text":"以下僅從核能安全委員會的管制的角度就核電廠的現況以及核子反應器設施管制法換照規定的修正草案提出報告敬請各位委員不吝指教核電廠研議目前各界仍存有不同的意見需要尋求社會共識此外也涉及核能安全、核廢處理以及等問題需要審慎評估充分討論"},{"start":2847.153,"end":2856.742,"text":"核安會作為獨立的核能安全管制機關本與法定職責執行專業的安全管制為民眾安全把關"},{"start":2859.039,"end":2875.965,"text":"依照現行的核管法及相關執法規定,運轉執照,借其要繼續運轉。經營者應在執照借滿前5到15年依照規定提出換照,未依規定換發執照不得繼續運轉。"},{"start":2878.644,"end":2907.214,"text":"換照申請規定的期限是參考美國的做法主要是考量主管機關的審查以及電力公司答覆審查意見所需要的時間並且在執照屆期前完成必要的檢查跟改善使到機組能夠在原執照屆滿後能夠持續運轉目前國內合一二三廠的各部機組經已超過運轉的申請期限"},{"start":2908.888,"end":2929.639,"text":"目前核一、二廠的運轉執照均已屆期已進入除役的階段機組狀態跟運轉的期間已經有差異其中核一廠部分設備也已經拆除核二廠目前正進行除役的準備工作核三廠目前正常運轉中兩部機組運轉執照也即將在這個月的27號跟5月17號明年"},{"start":2936.738,"end":2960.936,"text":"一法必須停止運轉,核一、二廠的用過燃料池已盡滿儲,核三廠用過燃料池儲存空間有限,也僅供運轉約四年多的期間。因此,無論儲役或延役,幹事儲存設施必須興建啟用,才能夠接續後面相關的作業。"},{"start":2962.318,"end":2984.126,"text":"核一二廠室外乾除設施部分,核一廠已經開始隨途保持的改善工程並安排進行熱測試,等到本會審查通過後才會核發運轉執照。核二廠的部分若新北市政府核發水保計劃即可以開始興建,若順利預估約三年左右可以運轉。"},{"start":2985.66,"end":2998.133,"text":"事內乾除設施部分,依據台電公司的推估,完成發包後大概7年可以取得運轉執照,核安會也會全程管制乾除設施的安全。"},{"start":2999.383,"end":3017.951,"text":"中時暫時儲存或者是最終處置為必要的設施,何能先進國家如美國等現在也未能定案。國內因為選址不易,民眾溝通以及地方政府的態度等因素也是難以解決的課題。"},{"start":3020.182,"end":3032.935,"text":"核電廠研議應該要檢視安全性跟可行性,對我國而言更需要嚴肅面對天然災害、複核式災害的影響。核安會將會從機械設備、電氣儀控、廠房結構、輻射防護等各專業領域"},{"start":3040.172,"end":3060.165,"text":"嚴格執行安全審查跟現場視察,唯有確認機組狀態符合安全的要求,才會同意犯花運轉執照。至於審查的期程,需要視經營者所提評估資料的完整性,對審查意見的回復的實效,以及核電廠個別機組的狀態而定。目前估計約3到5年,"},{"start":3067.086,"end":3070.484,"text":"針對各委員所擬具的核官法第六條修正草案。"},{"start":3071.513,"end":3096.105,"text":"合安會競表尊重。」委員所提的草案的部分經營者應就機組運轉安全進行評估確認符合法規之後使得提出核電廠再運轉的申請案而審查係基於專業與安全的基礎上並沒有簡約判斷的程序唯有經過主管機關審查同意換照之後才能夠繼續運轉"},{"start":3097.901,"end":3119.17,"text":"另外,研議屬於核能安全以及公共利益的重大事項,已以法律條文具體明確來確定。目前,國內大眾對於核電廠研議仍存有不同的意見,特別是針對核能安全、核廢處理、社會共識等議題,需要審慎評估、充分討論、溝通。"},{"start":3121.189,"end":3141.773,"text":"核安會作為我國獨立的核能安全管制機關跟國際的核能先進國家的管制機關一樣本於職責與專業為民眾的安全把關以上報告敬請各位委員先進不吝指教謝謝好,非常謝謝陳主委謝謝接下來我們請經濟部連次長進行報告時間3分鐘"},{"start":3149.707,"end":3163.753,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好。大院委員擬具《核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案》案,其宗旨在於修改核電機組申請研議時的法制程序,或是希望延長國內核電機組運作時間。經濟部尊重大院審議情況。"},{"start":3169.113,"end":3189.61,"text":"最近歐盟雖然已經有將核能納入永續融資的項目但是它的條件是需要在2050年前確立高階核廢料最終處置場且低階肥料最終處置要能開始運作核能基礎在運轉除面臨本條例修正草案之規範外核廢料最終處置要能"},{"start":3190.31,"end":3213.962,"text":"有很好的配套措施推動才是永續而且負責任的做法而台灣高階核廢料最終處置場所面臨選址無法源而調查遭民眾抗爭在低階核廢料最終處置場因地方政府拒絕辦理協助辦理公投而導致無法繼續推動另外在討論本條例修法的同時高低階廢料的"},{"start":3215.083,"end":3225.193,"text":"核廢料的選址條例的立法及修法也應要同時納入討論,有序地推動核廢料最終處置。另外,為確保核安再運轉需進行核電廠安全總體檢、結構設備組件受其管理、設備態換更新、輔導安全強化及耐震補強評估並準備相關計畫,我們會配合核安會的一個審查。"},{"start":3240.427,"end":3249.992,"text":"另外對於社會核電能有使用不同的意見,這如果要再運轉一定要取得社會共識才能進行,那以上不報告,敬請各位委員指教。"},{"start":3272.035,"end":3290.895,"text":"雖然核電有缺點,但核能帶來的災害跟全人類的滅絕不能相比。如果大家了解的話,就知道人類社會沒有多大的選擇,檢判要到位,不然我們會跟恐龍一樣滅絕。"},{"start":3292.7,"end":3318.48,"text":"這句話是誰說的是賴清德的氣候委員會的顧問李遠哲先生也是民進黨一路力挺民進黨的教改大師李遠哲先生昨天講的我希望今天所有的政府官員們你在審查今天的法案在野黨誠心誠意為民進黨找出一個解套的方式我希望大家聽進去"},{"start":3320.202,"end":3349.023,"text":"不聽羅志強的話就聽聽李遠哲的話我必須說李遠哲這觀點我非常遺憾因為十年前就有人說過類似的觀點一模一樣的觀點就是馬英九前總統十年前就已經提出預言了啦結果呢被民進黨打得落花流水完全不聽不踩蔡英文非核家園就是硬幹到底"},{"start":3350.506,"end":3377.46,"text":"我要跟大家說先知先覺的馬英九的話你蔡英文不聽錯過了黃金十年能源做很多的更好的一個配比來延續核能這世界主流的趨勢先知先覺的話不聽台灣已經晚了十年了但你起碼聽聽後知後覺的李遠哲的話吧賴清德李遠哲以前也是挺非核的"},{"start":3378.717,"end":3392.169,"text":"你要不要聽聽李遠哲後知後覺的話?現在氾濫毀物、撥亂反正、重新改正能源政策的錯誤,亡羊補牢時有未晚啊!"},{"start":3394.008,"end":3411.354,"text":"所以拜託今天所有在野黨我們今天心心念念為什麼提了這些讓民進黨還可以救救台灣能源政策盡盡公民的地球責任不要走到今天李遠哲說的是滅絕人類的幫兇的這一條路開了這一條門這一條路這一扇門剛剛聽了官員們報告不痛不癢啦"},{"start":3421.735,"end":3446.466,"text":"你有沒有從李遠哲的角度去想這些事情有沒有看到今天已經是迫切的緊中深深想敲響著我們今天未來台灣能源政策的重大危機有沒有聽進去啊先知先覺馬英九的話不聽聽聽後知後覺李遠哲的話不要當一個不知不覺的民進黨不知不覺賴清德不知不覺蔡英文謝謝"},{"start":3447.762,"end":3448.022,"text":"條文宣告"},{"start":3469.352,"end":3478.92,"text":"範圍雲質詢結束之後就進行處理。處理提案的時候若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場,我原力不處理。首先我們請發言登記第一位的萬美玲委員質詢。謝謝。好,謝謝召委。我們有請經濟部聯次長、台電的曾董事長以及河安衛的陳主委。好,請問請三位,謝謝。"},{"start":3498.083,"end":3507.153,"text":"委員長好首先我就先就叫我們連次長我想上個月我們賴清泉總統成立了三大任務編組委員會那預計每季都要定期來開會那這個核電廠研議的問題會在國家氣候變遷對策委員會中來討論那這個月底也即將要第一次開會了那請問一下經濟部我們知道這個氣候變遷委員會要討論的題目是哪些嗎"},{"start":3521.051,"end":3525.055,"text":"主要是討論有一些能源結構還有核電的相關的問題主要討論能源結構還有一些核電的相關的問題所以到底要討論的項目你並不知道?"},{"start":3531.981,"end":3535.702,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":3554.848,"end":3573.342,"text":"所以我們提到2023年能源佔比我們綠電佔了9.5%比核電的6.3%還要多可是我們氣候變遷對策委員會的召集人副召集人童子賢說道他說綠能是間歇性能源沒有能力提供穩定的供電經濟部認為綠能有辦法提供穩定的供電嗎?"},{"start":3576.764,"end":3595.297,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案件及核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案件及核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案件及核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案件及核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案件及核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案件及核子反應器設施管制法"},{"start":3602.54,"end":3625.195,"text":"我想應該是我們政府會好好去做一個完整的一個規劃我們也希望啦但是現在看起來好像沒有一個好好的規劃如果按照你們現在所說的說這個我們有辦法來做一個穩定的供電喔我就講本席的選區啦為什麼從四月到現在不斷的在停電一直在停電一直在跳電喔那甚至於進入夏季以後到七月一號二號三號桃園還是連續三天的來跳電現在連醫院玻璃桃園醫院都停電那麼連這個機場都跳電喔"},{"start":3632.259,"end":3653.603,"text":"你知道嗎?其實玻璃桃園院跳電那一天的狀況那是還好是不是運氣好還沒有出人命這醫院跳電何其嚴重機場跳電何其重大那現在我們口口聲聲左一句不缺電右一句不缺電所以我想在我們台電五月在這個卓院長在視察的時候來桃園視察的時候台電進入狀況內好嗎?"},{"start":3660.171,"end":3668.302,"text":"我們在五月份這個德院長來桃園視察的時候有說會全力穩定桃園地區的供電那今年也投入了八億去改善這個線路跟弱點的一個設備那兩個月過去了現在我們看到到處停電跳電又是小動物出沒"},{"start":3677.173,"end":3702.064,"text":"哪來那麼多小動物出沒啊?玻璃桃園醫院那一天其實我們大家就非常不能接受了神的保證每一次運氣都這麼好都不會出大事喔所以我想我們發現這個停電跳電一下說是小動物一下又說是這個陷入老舊啊等等啊從來不承認這是這個供電不穩供電不足啊我記得本席在這個5月29號的時候曾經要求經濟部我們在一個月內要由外部的這個專家學者來組成"},{"start":3704.045,"end":3719.177,"text":"停電跳電原因的調查委員會當時也有承諾說會來組成來針對大規模的停電來做但現在看起來還沒有那我請教一下台電我們現在桃園這樣子平平的一個跳電一個停電是不是其實就是缺電了"},{"start":3720.411,"end":3745.751,"text":"委員您剛才提到的幾個例子喔都是在我們備轉容量率非常高的時候發生的事情所以那個跟供電夠不夠是兩件事情那台電一直在說明就是這一些線路的問題其實包含我們知道說桃園市是這幾年來人口成長最多也是用電量成長最快的地方所以我們有很多虧線的負載其實已經是超過原來的設計"},{"start":3750.094,"end":3750.614,"text":"我希望能夠調整它。"},{"start":3774.059,"end":3793.574,"text":"我們今天審查核子反應器的管制條例我們幾位委員提案要來解除核電廠研議至少要五年前申請的限制其實這是為了台灣的能源政策跟我們乾淨的發電我們要多留一個選項留下這個選項所以主委我想請教你今天我們五個這個版本條文如果通過核三廠會自動研議嗎?"},{"start":3795.677,"end":3815.858,"text":"如果修正通過以後,我們營運者,我們台電是不是還是跟現在一樣?我們是要第一個,如果我們要研議要向核安會來申請,並且經過審查。然後呢,審查完以後確認安全無虞才會發給這個執照,之後才能夠繼續運轉。如果沒有提出申請也無法研議,對不對?"},{"start":3817.785,"end":3834.071,"text":"是的,好,那所以依照核安會專業的角度來看,來出發,這一次修法通過之後,您認為會不會有核安的疑慮?如果你認為是有,又會是什麼?那個核安的部分,台電必須先去檢視他想要研議的機組。"},{"start":3835.291,"end":3854.391,"text":"那這個部分他必須寫一個報告,那我們有一些規範,就是整體性的老化評估、老化分析、實現安全分析,那這個東西在我們所有的規範裡面的目錄大概有多長?主委,本席只想問您說,這一次我們如果今天的修法條文通過以後,有沒有會產生核案的疑慮,就這麼簡單?"},{"start":3855.572,"end":3855.592,"text":"案。"},{"start":3866.898,"end":3891.156,"text":"主委根據我們這個相關的審核的辦法第16條來看如果要繼續運轉目前是要5到15年之前就是5年前要提出申請可是我們看到同辦法第19條我們有規定審查的期限是由主管機關公告之也就是說核安會還是有相當的決定權嘛 對不對所以如果說我們修法拿掉了5"},{"start":3891.857,"end":3906.463,"text":"到15年這個限制的這申請限制那我們怎麼審查或者審查多久那怎麼樣去確保安全這是不是都還是操之在核安委的手上您認為對嗎是的但是一切都是以專業安全的考量"},{"start":3907.083,"end":3917.818,"text":"那當然嘛所以這個就是核安慰的功能嘛那當然是要借助專業嘛怎麼可能說任何一個人說了就算數當然是要你核安慰嘛所以呢我想喔我們今天要修把這五年的期限拿掉那事實上真的是喔"},{"start":3923.305,"end":3930.467,"text":"實施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":3950.516,"end":3975.643,"text":"第一個我們執照是給40年所以到今年7月27他必須依法停機那麼如果通過那台電必須還要準備一個安全的報告我剛才講說研議的報告那麼他要是機組的整個情況那麼做必要的設備的更新那麼我們送到核安會來才會開始審查所以這個需要比較長的時間以上報告"},{"start":3976.603,"end":3982.453,"text":"所以您還是沒有回答嘛那如果今天修法通過了以後核三場一號機組有沒有研議的條件跟空間"},{"start":3984.193,"end":3991.599,"text":"這個目前沒辦法估計,這個還是要由台電先來做評估。好,我想諸位我們要確保核能安全其實就是核安委的職責沒有核安其實也不會給予執照也不會到今天我們這個核產廠還在運轉所以我想我們今天這樣的一個修法我想是為了核電研議的備用留一個選擇的機會那不然只會讓我國在核能跟核安方面的技術去停滯會跟不上國際的一個發展的趨勢那我們希望我們針對問題"},{"start":4011.795,"end":4018.38,"text":"那麼今天其實希望主委能夠把這個事情說清楚講明白不要讓這個大眾有誤解好不好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝外媒林委員我們有請柯智恩委員柯昭偉質詢"},{"start":4040.748,"end":4051.522,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請河安會的陳主委還有我們台電的我們的曾文森董事長還有包括我們的經濟部的次長連次長三位請三位官員被質詢,謝謝"},{"start":4055.182,"end":4063.747,"text":"好,非常謝謝三位,我想核能問題大家就非常的關心,雖然經濟部才是真正能源的主管機關,但是有關核電的這個研議的問題卻落在這個所謂的核安會這個三級單位當中,然後大家可以看到各部會只要提到核能都是互踢皮球。"},{"start":4074.013,"end":4075.314,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具 «核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案件事項》案"},{"start":4095.745,"end":4098.689,"text":"道法令是要由台電這邊要提出要台電提出申請所以說呢台電如果不提出申請的計畫即使這一部法通過還是被動的躺在那邊可以就對不對"},{"start":4109.548,"end":4115.391,"text":"對嘛,我現在只問嘛,是不是如果我們今天討論了半天每個人都想要來抗爭,昨天晚上外面一堆人抗爭,一直在討論這部法,這部法如果僅僅修過的話,台電如果不送出演繹計畫的話,是不是就是被動的躺在那邊而已,是不是?我只回答是或不是。"},{"start":4130.939,"end":4132.04,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":4151.995,"end":4171.921,"text":"台電必須要做任何的研議的工作都要先做安全的自我檢查我當然知道每個人都是阿你現在提的意見是說意願上我們現在最重要的是客觀條件上到底能不能做所以嘛你2030年前如果說你們這麼打爆破說不會缺電的話那當然研議就不是問題所以你們當然就不會提出所謂的研議申請的計畫嗎"},{"start":4173.981,"end":4189.467,"text":"根委員報告現在這個狀況是法到底修完是什麼樣的狀況法修完就是把你的年限把它撤除讓你們有更彈性的空間開店自己的安全的評估的狀況是如何這個東西都要有一些根據"},{"start":4190.347,"end":4193.47,"text":"好,來沒問題曾董事長我等下來告訴你我們台電的安全狀況是怎麼樣我想很清楚的大家目前為止鎖定在李遠哲的發言跟童子賢的一個發言那當然郭智輝部長也會是我想請次長你也來解讀一下我想童子賢應該是沒有被委員請吃飯所以他目前為止還是停留在他認為核能還是一個解方"},{"start":4214.029,"end":4237.659,"text":"國部長說只要修法通過核二、核三研議二、三十年不是問題,核電不是迂載的建立,但也是後備。吃了一頓飯之後他馬上說也沒有考慮過這個備載的部分。結果最近他又接受這個訪問,他又改口說任何的電我們都需要。次長你跟他比較接近,你可不可以了解我哪一個才是真正經濟部長的一個說法?到底目前你們的態度是怎麼樣?到底是廢核還是續核?能源到底誰說了算?"},{"start":4242.314,"end":4247.021,"text":"針對那個民間的人士我們是不去做評論。但是針對我們部長意思是說我們會在多元的電力的供應下我們已經做好妥善的電力供應的一個規劃準備。"},{"start":4258.636,"end":4270.619,"text":"你們這個有講跟沒有講一樣我們現在還是聽不懂到底金字部到底要幹嘛到目前為止也沒人知道他到底每一天只要是一頓飯局或出國一次回來之後每個話都不一致我現在只問個非常客觀的一個問題喔核一場廚藝從申請到這個解除大概是四年的時間核二呢大家念知在知已經進入廚藝狀況但是各位你看到沒有"},{"start":4280.401,"end":4280.661,"text":"案案案案"},{"start":4310.721,"end":4313.783,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4329.741,"end":4344.973,"text":"那個跟委員報告啊就像所有就包括您提到言議一樣他都有安全申請所以我們有很多行政程序的審查還有安全的審查環評的審查這個都不是我們事業單位能夠那誰應該負責你認為台電你認為應該是誰來來負責會比較來做一個更主導性的一個規劃"},{"start":4350.538,"end":4356.32,"text":"我還是要說一下就是我們現在這一些相關的議題就是有這些審查像環境的影響評估我們也不只是這些廚藝的問題審查很久我有一大堆案子都是所以我就告訴你嘛你一方面宣稱要非核家園是不可不放棄的目標可是真的何店長要廚藝的時候我真的覺得是拖拖拉拉你看"},{"start":4371.924,"end":4379.971,"text":"合約要六、七年欸那你們現在早就應該合好合二合三的研議計畫了難道是這樣子嗎?委員我們講一下你說你提到了合二合二的狀況是這個樣子它環評通過現在只是在修正邊界但真正要能夠進到廚藝是甘廚要能夠實施那甘廚的這一件事情我們最近已經跟新北市談出一個結果來我們希望趕快送審也能夠讓合二的廚藝順利進行"},{"start":4401.428,"end":4404.209,"text":"合一的廚藝干除了工作能夠順利進行,這個審查過程就超過10年了。我跟委員報告,它就停機了,然後接下來我們就會進入廚藝狀態,只要環評跟核安的審查通過,我們就進入廚藝狀態。"},{"start":4426.519,"end":4447.496,"text":"是,就從我剛剛那個部分嘛,2018年到現在為止都還是屬於一個問號,所以到底什麼時間點,我們目前都還是不知道。那我們現在請問一下啊,這個連市長,非核家園的推動上一次我們問了一下之後,我們說第六次的這個非核家園小組最後一次開會是在2021年喔。"},{"start":4448.817,"end":4460.746,"text":"三年之前的時候本來就應該討論有關於中期儲存的這個地方喔你們講東講西然後呢我上次問了我們陳東陽主委他說第七次的會議對不對主委很坦白說2023年之後就沒有再開會囉然後呢你希望趕快開第七次的會議而且呢討論第一階和廢料儲放的問題但是呢被這個小組給打回票不開就是不開我想請問台電"},{"start":4475.096,"end":4494.808,"text":"《終其戰處存償的地理條件》這個所謂選址的原則到底我們是不是還在等非核家園推動小組來拍板到底什麼時候來可以來討論這個問題我現在今天從頭到尾直問他你們都告訴我安全很重要我也知道安全很重要可是很多的進程就是還在卡在那個地方你看第四次會議我們講個最現實的終其戰處存償的問題什麼時候可以解決"},{"start":4499.591,"end":4505.497,"text":"我要跟委員報告那個我先解釋一下什麼是中期暫處啦你不用解釋你只要告訴我第七次會議大家都要召開2023年開完之後再沒有召開我上次已經提醒過了你們還是沒有在做這麼很積極的處理所以我只說什麼時候開這個會議而且次長也還是一個不著急人"},{"start":4518.569,"end":4538.496,"text":"這個不是非核價小組開會就可以決定因為重點是這樣它會回到跟現在第一階核廢料處理的問題一樣它有地方公投等等相關的問題所以經濟部今天在報告裡面有特別提到就是說如果核電的使用它要有始有終如果頭開了你尾巴要能夠解決同時要能夠一起來解決"},{"start":4539.116,"end":4539.436,"text":"這才有辦法讓我們真正成為這個永續運用。"},{"start":4564.002,"end":4564.342,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":4582.23,"end":4582.57,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4601.971,"end":4602.031,"text":"條文宣告"},{"start":4619.946,"end":4624.568,"text":"那你認不認可這個價值嗎?我告訴你認不認可這個價值,誠如你剛剛所提到的,其實這個法通過,包括核安,包括台電,我們還是要經過一連串的安全檢視,這個安全檢視可能要花費3年到7年到10年,對不對?這都還是需要同島一命啊,我只說這個法,研議的法通過,只是提供你一個更彈性的空間,反而讓你有一個解套的一個部分。"},{"start":4648.396,"end":4648.416,"text":"案。"},{"start":4665.455,"end":4684.425,"text":"那個委員我這樣說齁您現在就一直講說這是你的事啦但是我要修正法修完就是你的事情就我覺得這個法的修正就已經有一個價值意向在了我怎麼可能是這樣切割我真的是完全不了解我沒有跟你切割我們在那個法裡面其實是切法核安包括經濟包括台電"},{"start":4687.286,"end":4693.85,"text":"我們等下在法社好好來做修正一下。董事長,我不覺得這是一個,我完全不認為這是一個切割。這只是你們在承諾我剛所提到的。每次問到這個問題,經濟部沒有辦法回應,就告訴我國發。國發告訴幕僚單位說這是核安問題。核安會又告訴我說他們只是一個安全的問題。所以我們只是透過這樣的一個討論,請告訴我們。整體的規劃我完全了解。"},{"start":4714.06,"end":4714.08,"text":"案。"},{"start":4752.602,"end":4755.974,"text":"謝主席,呃,有請陳主委跟經濟部連次長"},{"start":4761.796,"end":4781.56,"text":"林委員早我想首先我先要向柯之恩召委喊話一下核能安全、核廢處理跟社會共識這三大要件都不可偏廢我想在這三大要件之前還沒有完備之前我們沒有任何透過修法要求繼續使用核電的正當性所以我堅決反對外行的立法來干涉專業的核能安全的審查"},{"start":4786.181,"end":4806.892,"text":"所以我呼籲科智恩、昭緯要珍惜人民賦予的權利今天不應該進入法條的審查那如果這項法條那麼具有公義性那大家搶後提而來不及為什麼會淪落到今天這種地步就連國民黨的教文的昭緯跟國民黨的教文委員都不願意提案只有幾個從國會擴權惡法一路惡搞台灣到今天的戰鬥欄有提"},{"start":4811.394,"end":4811.414,"text":"案 。"},{"start":4829.341,"end":4845.628,"text":"舉辦反對核電研議拒絕草率修法的晚會那表達拒絕核管法草率修法的訴求我想今天本席要針對這一連串這個修法的這個提案版本來做一些批判首先我想"},{"start":4846.708,"end":4860.379,"text":"請教核安會主委核安會作為把關這個國內核能電廠安全監督的機關除了確保運轉當下的安全性當然我們更不能忽略就是未來的安全性那我國核電廠從1980年代前後商轉至今"},{"start":4864.162,"end":4883.688,"text":"三座核電廠各機組都有40年左右的歷史。依照核管法第六條的規定本來就應該在運轉期限屆期前重新進行安全的評估,否則就依法要停止運轉,來著手所謂的除役的作業。"},{"start":4884.508,"end":4904.563,"text":"那核管法制定當初就有這一層40年的限制的安全考量以及在運轉有效借期前5年到15年的換照申請的法定期間所以請教主委這些是否是為了核能發電的未來安全性的考量而定的"},{"start":4905.444,"end":4908.111,"text":"面對核能這麼一個謹慎掌控風險的能源,主委你是不是同意這些年限的限制是合理的?"},{"start":4915.71,"end":4941.484,"text":"完全合理五年到前十五年美國是前五年到前二十年我們其實是比照國際的經驗其實在過去馬政府執政時期的2009年台電就已經提出核一廠一號機及二號機的研議申請只是他截至2016年的二月他提出到"},{"start":4943.945,"end":4960.968,"text":"例經近7年,台電公司能有7項議題沒有提出相關評估或改善結果的答覆說明。」所以從這個歷史前提我們可以看得出來核電研議的審查需要時間就如同過去主委你也常常"},{"start":4961.849,"end":4973.914,"text":"回覆委員的這個問題是相當複雜以至於多年過去核電廠研議的審查都沒有下文最後的結果就是台電撤回研議的申請那再來同樣是一份歷史的回顧2011年馬前總統召開能源政策記者會的時候他曾經宣布"},{"start":4984.179,"end":4988.383,"text":"核一、核二、核三將不再研議並強調以積極務實跟負責的態度逐步邁向非核家園現在各個國民黨紛紛提出核電要研議的修法完完全全就是在穿越時空打臉"},{"start":5001.495,"end":5010.457,"text":"馬前總統非核家園不但是環境基本法的明文目標也是這幾任的總統通通有宣示過的內容況且核電的研議有安全性的問題我們必須要先停機檢修才符合所謂繼續運轉的能量"},{"start":5024.722,"end":5042.524,"text":"那可是檢修需要耗費好幾年的時間跟龐大的預算那綜合前面所說的提出申請審核需要時間停機檢修需要時間更新機組也需要時間那所以核三機組的停機在即的現在我們要求"},{"start":5043.649,"end":5068.383,"text":"不停止運轉而延逸等於是擔著核電廠超時服役的更高風險所以我們根本沒有這樣的本錢去承受所以本席在前一次核安會的質詢中我就提出質疑說延逸到底需要多少的成本那根本沒有辦法平衡這個永和人士口中所謂的便宜電價這次我們簡單就問一下主委跟次長好了"},{"start":5068.723,"end":5073.733,"text":"最近一次即將停機的這個核三廠一號機檢修時間需要多少時間還有在現行條件下如果重啟這個營運那維修成本又需要多少簡單回答"},{"start":5084.761,"end":5108.379,"text":"就目前來講最快最快要5年了那有可能是因為剛才講的因為你可能如果你要停了之後要再運轉它有很多很多複雜的問題像剛才包括燃料這些低階燃料要怎麼去處理等等還有一些機構安全的問題這些如果又再平復完之後我想最快是5年最長搞不好要拖到10年以上對這是這是時間嘛那萬維整個的成本呢需要花的經費的成本呢"},{"start":5113.843,"end":5113.923,"text":"判決委員"},{"start":5134.835,"end":5154.23,"text":"最嚴格的一個環境的一個設置條件我不能把這個就講說它一定是存在那這樣對於我的能源供應是一個存在一個大的漏洞所以我們一定是要把說那我非核我執行下去那我整個能源我要怎麼再去接上來那這樣對於整個國家在能源供應上才是一個最好的一個"},{"start":5155.491,"end":5163.613,"text":"所以在次長您的說法之下就是說核電真的經濟嗎?真的穩定嗎?那我想這是大大的懷疑那另外我想預期搶著討論核電再運轉那是不是來討論核廢處置廠比較務實一點我們請教主委跟次長全世界有哪個國家在核電廠營運三四十年之後還沒有興建核廢竿組設施的"},{"start":5185.902,"end":5211.618,"text":"我的理解是沒有沒有國家沒有國家只有台灣只有台灣就只有台灣所以在安全把關的考量下必須要先討論核廢料的處理嘛所以在座請教主委跟次長就使用核電的前提是不是得先安全的處理核廢料是嗎好那所以最後啦我想核廢的事情沒辦法處理"},{"start":5212.919,"end":5213.179,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":5229.784,"end":5245.668,"text":"所以昨天公民集結學者與各界的代表一個一個宣講表達拒絕核電的訴求核電再運轉這絕對真的不是一條可行的道路所以拜託我們主委跟次長好好的把關 謝謝接下來我們請葛如君委員"},{"start":5264.993,"end":5271.358,"text":"謝謝主席,有請河岸會主委、經濟部次長、國發會檢任記政以及台電董事長備詢。"},{"start":5281.014,"end":5306.868,"text":"今天我們國民黨召委排審核子反應器設施管制法可以說是用心良苦希望所有的人在座的各位官員都能夠體會首先請教主委我們看今天核安會的報告似乎是採取競表尊重並不反對的態度主委我們是不是可以就此定謀競表尊重並不反對就是核安會對於核電廠研議的立場是嗎"},{"start":5310.233,"end":5337.748,"text":"報告裡面只有競表尊重所以現在反對嗎?就是尊重好沒有關係現在還是這個在反對不反對之間嘛我們之前已經提過了薛丁格的狀態沒有關係我們今天如果7月27號停機了我們的電力減少了如果我們真的再發生大跳電"},{"start":5339.11,"end":5344.677,"text":"在座的四位有沒有人要負責下台啊?有沒有人願意負責下台?市長,我是說誰該負誰的責任就應該誰該負嗎?誰該負?總不可能沒有人該負責任吧?"},{"start":5361.882,"end":5377.051,"text":"沒有關係我已經預期到你們的反應了董事長您可以請回了您其實有可能是要負責任但既然你沒有要負責任你就先回去吧謝謝核安會昨天上午10點以前10點前以電子郵件送了今天的報告"},{"start":5377.791,"end":5398.473,"text":"下午點又送了一份修正報告,不比對還好,一比對才發現越寫越倒退,把肯定委員考量國內能源需求以及若國家能源政策確定核電研議等等這一類立場比較傾向研議的句子都刪除就算了。"},{"start":5399.534,"end":5403.482,"text":"最後還把研議需要的時程從國際經驗2到3年修正成依我國核電廠基礎狀況估計需要3到5年"},{"start":5411.087,"end":5432.098,"text":"甚至到剛剛說法又變了,市長你剛剛是不是又說改成5到10年啊?我們這時間可以這樣子亂跳的嗎?報告委員剛才講的是說你檢查要5年但是如果你要再重置的話有一些新建期或有一些要處理的問題等到弄好之後有可能會到10年我聽你解釋啦"},{"start":5433.53,"end":5448.006,"text":"你們就是在算賴清德總統任期結束的時候啦!他可能還想要續任嘛!算一算我八年到時候萬一要開機怎麼辦?是這樣嗎?是用這種數學在算的嗎?我們這種科學的事情可以用這樣的數學在算嗎?所以我想我們來看一些事實好不好?看一些科學好不好?"},{"start":5455.56,"end":5468.231,"text":"在近年的國際局勢的影響之下我們鄰近的日本、韓國都加入了重啟核電的行列日本九州電力公司川內核電廠一號機7月3號借滿40年運轉期直接從7月4號正式展開研議日本高濱核電廠19個小時以前"},{"start":5479.5,"end":5506.741,"text":"公告了從40年的年限延長到加20年直接研議請問為什麼日本可以做我們不能做可不可以回答有沒有研究他們怎麼做到的為什麼他們不用花2到10年來檢查為什麼他們不用可不可以說明我們用的核電不一樣嗎那個報告委員這個案子我們會來研究一下但是我跟委員報告"},{"start":5508.294,"end":5529.778,"text":"我們原來的執照是給定40年,依照法定的程序,停機之後,如果要研議,我們必須做安全檢查,然後才可以...那為什麼他們不用檢查?他們罔顧人民性命嗎?這個部分我要了解一下。好,沒有關係。那你今天才開始了解,什麼時候了解完?今天之前都不用了解嗎?"},{"start":5534.994,"end":5540.979,"text":"我沒有注意到這個新聞沒有注意到好謝謝這是我們協作的部分那我再給你一個新聞老實說你們作為核安會沒有注意這些新聞沒有關係這個我們就是論事"},{"start":5554.046,"end":5569.42,"text":"義大利7月1號也向歐盟提交新版的國家能源與氣候計劃案,預估2050年全國發電量至少11%來自核能,象徵義大利歷經34年的非核政策以後正式重啟核能發電。那這個新聞有沒有注意到?有嗎?那為什麼人家可以就這樣走了?"},{"start":5577.586,"end":5606.304,"text":"為什麼我們都可以逆向而行?台灣的核電跟別人的核電都不一樣嗎?你說我們的環境不同?我們跟日本的環境很像啊!我們今天在這裡其實就是希望我們不要只是喊說我們在AI世界的中心但是我們卻有可能成為缺電的中心這完全兜不起來啊科技巨頭都非常關心電力的穩定但是我們看到的是什麼?"},{"start":5607.225,"end":5628.554,"text":"我們看到的是什麼?各種踢皮球的狀態然後呢我們的賴總統左擁右抱左擁右抱一邊是能源政策九彎十八拐修正在修正的郭部長另外一邊總統府國家氣候變遷對策委員會從反核轉向挺核的童子賢副召集人"},{"start":5629.608,"end":5644.353,"text":"大家一搭一唱,忙著唱一部民進黨與非核家園有緣無分的大戲。一直說啊,不是不愛啊,只是迫於無奈啊。520到現在兩手策略讓民眾看了一頭霧水。現在,我們在討論核電廠研議的時候,還是說得不清不楚,說國外的狀況沒有研究。"},{"start":5651.345,"end":5676.573,"text":"今天我們五個草案其實方向都是一致的我們溫情喊話聲聲吹行政院充耳不聞院長甚至抱著神主牌說這不是神主牌說是心理的理念到現在還是沒有任何行政院的草案提出甚至沒有建議版的文字想請問安會主委您支持今天我們修法草案的方向嗎"},{"start":5678.889,"end":5693.134,"text":"我覺得這個行政院長已經說明就是我們政府不會主動提出修法但是您敬表尊重嘛對不對這四個字對吧經濟部次長您支持今天修法草案的方向嗎還是敬表尊重"},{"start":5697.52,"end":5711.469,"text":"那您競表尊重算是有修改立場了啦,也是不錯啦,算至少有尊重。但我看你們郭部長還不只尊重,態度還有很多鬆動。那請問國發會的政檢記,您支持我們今天修法草案的方向嗎?所以我們的省主牌換名字啦,競表尊重變成新的省主牌啦。那我們的非核家園省主牌算破除了嗎?"},{"start":5725.069,"end":5748.599,"text":"算破除了嗎?沒關係大家就是問到重點的時候就會停住希望我們的電力不要這樣啦那我想這個真的是很重要的問題我們回顧過去民國91年核子反應設施的管制法的立法討論當時負責說明的法案並不是經建會而是核安會前身的原能會"},{"start":5750.159,"end":5757.842,"text":"現在有很多人又突然講說相關的這個是國發會的責任踢皮球踢來踢去踢到國發會的門口了國發會我們就檢記出來來反映"},{"start":5766.425,"end":5779.752,"text":"我們體育也能踢球、文化也能踢球我們現在經濟的核心、電力也在踢球到底有什麼東西是不是踢球的啦那我想這個真的是會不會到最後啊又踢了一顆球直接幫你們瞄準下一個目標啦到最後我們如果假設草案通過我看你們這個球又要踢到什麼氣候變遷委員會啊是不是到最後會不會又踢到氣候變遷委員會會不會"},{"start":5796.052,"end":5818.87,"text":"我看我今天就是神預言了啦如果今天大家都沒有什麼立場講來講去就是敬表尊重我是真的就覺得這樣真的是不夠負責任那我想請教那剛剛已經有非常多人在詢問就是說這些準備到底你們到底有沒有做計算到底要多少費用多少時間再給你們一個機會有沒有估算過"},{"start":5830.04,"end":5843.888,"text":"這個檢查安全檢查必須是個別機組的狀態如果有零件要更換那麼還需要更多餘的時間所以它有一定的不確定性那經費呢?有沒有範圍?經費可能要台電來說明"},{"start":5845.609,"end":5862.878,"text":"因為這個禁慰就是像剛才朱薇講的要逐一下去檢視你才可以知道禁慰要怎麼去編列我真的是看起來我們就是教文我舉個例子有點像小孩子明天就要上大學了不知道他要念幾年也不知道他要多少學費這真的是我們在面對電力的做法嗎我們日本近年為了強化AI和晶片產業鏈的發展非常積極和國際企業合作"},{"start":5870.181,"end":5884.132,"text":"場商為了瞭解各國的環境適不適合其實也會到當地參訪電廠就本席瞭解近期也有台灣重點廠商到日本參訪核電廠請問經濟部和國發會日本是透過這樣的方式讓國際企業瞭解電力工藝的穩定性那我們呢我們拿什麼來承諾穩定供電我們有去參訪我們有去瞭解嗎剛剛還有說沒有聽過這些消息的"},{"start":5895.88,"end":5912.833,"text":"難道我們要用這種綠能概念股的股價成長趨勢來承諾穩定供電嗎?是這樣嗎?就是說我們這個綠能技術一片安詳股價一片看好是這樣嗎?我們用這個來承諾國際大廠我們有電嗎?我們如果有重大投資我們一定是經過規劃一定是穩定供電的"},{"start":5921.087,"end":5925.29,"text":"那剛剛說如果跳電如果供電不穩定誰要下台?市長要下台嗎?有人要負責嗎?我想這個同時前董事長最近又說了啦這現在的這個我們的跨界良心說非核家園政策正在卡住台灣削弱我們晶片產業的競爭力這也是我們許多關心能源議題人民的擔憂啦今天國民黨主動出來"},{"start":5951.536,"end":5978.623,"text":"主動出來勒我們主動出來啦要來破除什麼我們今天多一張啦我覺得我們不是煞車皮國民黨不是煞車皮阿我們是雷神之鎚阿好不好我們要來破除這個非核家園的審主牌好不好我們開大門走大路審法案下台階都搭好了執政黨不要繼續陷我們賴總統於不義"},{"start":5981.284,"end":5983.407,"text":"把我們的賴總統塑造成左擁右抱、腳踏多條船的復興漢。我剛剛忘記按出我的雷神之槌。雷神之槌啊!我還畫了閃電。"},{"start":5993.7,"end":6022.692,"text":"把我們的賴總統弄成這樣,真的是對的嗎?同時我要再強調,不好意思,這個稍微再給我30秒,10秒就可以了。我說,民進黨可以用卓院長近來最喜歡說的時空背景不同來回應嗎?當然不行。國會改革法案,我們提出過去相同的內容,民進黨反對的理由,時空背景不同。我們邀請來做國情報告,也是過去民進黨的主張,民進黨反對的理由也是什麼?時空背景不同。"},{"start":6023.252,"end":6039.997,"text":"但是現在面對核電廠演繹各國都在擁抱核能明顯就是時空背景不同現在你們突然又不講啦雙重標準現在突然又時空背景相同了嗎?難怪童子前形容台灣對碳排的自我感覺過於良好是集體處在夢遊的狀態"},{"start":6041.937,"end":6057.161,"text":"各位官員不要再繼續裝睡下去剛剛我問很多問題你們都停在那邊也許真的是在夢遊啦希望不是希望我們稍後的逐條審查當中各位可以清醒過來我們理性務實的一起討論法案謝謝好謝謝各位我們謝謝葛如君委員謝謝好接下來我們請陳秀寶委員"},{"start":6075.877,"end":6083.97,"text":"謝謝主席,請何恩威、陳竺偉、經濟部連次長以及國發會的正檢記。好,我們就三個單位的代表,謝謝。"},{"start":6087.495,"end":6107.894,"text":"陳委員好早安今天我們要討論核子反應器的設施管制法第六條修正草案其實這個事情這個試射國家非核安全發展的方向那國化會這邊是今天是指派產業處的政檢記本席其實要表達一下質疑國化會好像不太重視我們非核家園發展的方向"},{"start":6108.855,"end":6132.33,"text":"在我們環境基本法第23條規定政府應定定計劃逐步達成非核家園的目標並且應該加強核能安全的管制輻射防射輻射的防護以及放射性物料管理環境的輻射政策確保民眾避免輻射危害那這邊我想請教國防局的鄭檢記目前非核家園的目標是不是都是一致的有沒有變動"},{"start":6137.286,"end":6142.626,"text":"跟委員報告非核家園的目標是這個環境基本法的這一個"},{"start":6144.578,"end":6171.134,"text":"非核家園是環境基本法的終極目標那這個國內的能源政策目前也是以這個方向來處理所以是一致的是沒有變動的但是呢跳電跟停電是不是等於缺電本席認為說跳電跟停電是不等於缺電的會跳電跟會停電其實跟電力供應的調度還有管制的缺失是有密切的關係那我這邊想請教次長"},{"start":6173.395,"end":6178.516,"text":"條電停電跟缺電有什麼差別?你這邊是不是說明一下?所以很明顯的就是整個電力供應的調度跟管制的缺失就像本席剛剛所說的市長"},{"start":6200.022,"end":6227.98,"text":"一年多前,一零一年的台灣大學社科院的風險社會與政策研究中心有一份台灣缺電風險分析報告裡面寫說政府不缺電的方案裡面有五個風險第一個就是電力調度的管理困難度提升第二個是新式電網的發展太慢第三是增生能源多元化進度落後還有電力需求評估不明確以及地緣政治風險那我這邊想請教次長,如果我們只用核電"},{"start":6228.88,"end":6246.165,"text":"就能解決以上這些問題嗎?是沒辦法我剛才有講如果核電剛才要講說最快你也要是五年啟動那如果說在整個基礎再去檢修或是有什麼問題搞不好要超過五年那這五年其實對於整個在電的補充是沒有幫助的所以我們不能用這樣條件來規劃我未來整個"},{"start":6248.746,"end":6249.066,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":6270.649,"end":6293.812,"text":"因為我們無法完善核廢料的最終處置與核電廠再運轉的核電廠這個安全當我們連核廢料都沒有辦法有效處置的時候其實我們要討論核電廠再運轉根本是沒有實質意義的我的鄉親都很焦慮地問我說為什麼會有委員要提案要修法核廢料我們根本無法處置無法處理那這些提案的委員有沒有保證他們能夠"},{"start":6295.493,"end":6316.478,"text":"做這些核廢料的最終處置其實是沒有我們沒有辦法處理到我們核廢料的這些問題那這邊今天我們要討論的這個修正草案現行的第六條有規定說期滿需繼續運轉者經營者需執照有效期借滿前向主管機關申請換發執照那我想請教次長台電這邊有沒有規劃核電廠要申請換發執照或是繼續運轉"},{"start":6321.559,"end":6347.127,"text":"沒有沒有如果台電沒有規劃要目前的法令規定是不允許的也沒有規劃嗎所以台電沒有規劃要申請換照繼續運轉那我們今天為什麼要審查這個草案的必要性你們沒有要提出這樣的需求所以根本沒有這個法案修正的這個必要性今天討論的這個修正法案原文有規定說核子反應器設施運轉期"},{"start":6348.907,"end":6365.938,"text":"執照最長其間最長是40年齊滿需運轉者、經營者需於主管機關規定之期限內申請換發執照,未依規定換發執照者不得繼續運轉。當營運執照到期後,已經到期了,能不能換發執照?目前的法令是不允許當初立法的時候是如何考量?時空背景有沒有改變?"},{"start":6377.688,"end":6391.868,"text":"是要在前5年到前15年主要是因為安檢的需求那這個安檢的需求其實我們是跟隨美國的相關的經驗所以是跟全世界是同步的"},{"start":6392.699,"end":6417.657,"text":"所以主委您剛剛也回答了其實所有的規範相關的規範都是為了安全考量安全是最重要的民眾就真的非常的擔心我這邊要請教主委如果條文真的強行通過沒有經過換發執照審查的這個程序真的可以確認核子反應設施是安全無虞的嗎我們要經過怎樣的程序才能確定核子反應設施是安全的這個部分"},{"start":6420.882,"end":6449.492,"text":"台電必須事先就他想要研議的機組做健康檢查然後提出一個報告那這個報告我剛才提到他就是一個老化分析整體性的老化評估老化安全分析實現老化分析這個運轉機組的相關的條件那這個報告檢視完如果他有零件或者是有某些設備需要更換他必須去做更換更新然後把所有的報告送到核安會來"},{"start":6450.552,"end":6468.088,"text":"合安會是由國外、國內跟我們會內的專家就各個領域專業領域去做審查那這個時程還要看這個我們這個所有報告的完整性那麼看看是不是有什麼問題他們可以需要再改進的"},{"start":6468.528,"end":6495.01,"text":"所以時程有一定的不確定性所以時程是絕對不能倉促的因為每一個關卡都是攸關著安全核能的安全核電廠的運轉執照換發是攸關整個核能安全及公共利益的重要事項那民眾也希望知道說如果像國民黨這樣級的委員這樣子的修法這樣子的提案平行是"},{"start":6495.931,"end":6506.674,"text":"他們很質疑說怎麼可以立法院擴權擴成這樣只要是立法委員想做的修法就可以都可以不用顧慮安全不用顧慮程序不用顧慮是不是專業這個民眾真的覺得非常的他們會覺得說怎麼可以讓民眾這麼擔憂那我現在要請教主委已經借期限才申請換發執照那在整個營運跟監管會遇到什麼風險"},{"start":6522.716,"end":6543.271,"text":"這個全世界這個案例非常非常的少那麼以核二來講我們已經停機將近兩年那他還要做乾除最快最快還要再三年所以假設研議的法案通過他要重啟最快也要五六年以後一台車"},{"start":6544.372,"end":6544.732,"text":"條文宣告"},{"start":6559.429,"end":6575.06,"text":"那其實我們台灣在產業這個世界的產業供應鏈上是一個非常重要的角色當然民眾企業都需要穩定的供電所以這邊本席要要求說我們在發展多元力能跟智慧電網的同時呢經濟部跟台電一定要強化我們電力系統這個供應的這個韌性那最後這邊本席要提醒大家"},{"start":6581.764,"end":6589.848,"text":"其實台灣的產業努力於改善能源密集度這幾年下來其實是有成效的我們集成下來的用電量遠遠大於興建一座兩座這個核電廠的裝置的容量如果我們體認到這個事實就會發現說我們台灣為了爭論核電已經浪費太多的社會資源造成更多的社會紛爭跟民眾的焦慮所以本席認為說與其爭論台灣應不應該採用核能"},{"start":6608.237,"end":6616.623,"text":"案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條"},{"start":6636.752,"end":6641.834,"text":"好,謝謝。各位請回座。那接下來我們請郭育晴委員。謝謝主席。有請我們的主委還有次長。好,主委跟經濟部次長,謝謝。"},{"start":6657.641,"end":6682.394,"text":"國務委員早早安兩位早安我想今天其實在這邊發言其實我真的不建議今天進入法條的審查就像剛剛其實我們諸多的委員在提到沒有任何的社會共識在昨天其實還有很多的專家學者他們紛紛去講就算今天藍白他們用人數的多數通過了這些就是我知道不行法規說不行我要把它改到行"},{"start":6683.374,"end":6693.878,"text":"這像巨嬰欸 這像耍賴欸所以其實沒有取得任何的社會共識之前我覺得核能的安全安全兩個字不是只有我們這一代我們還有下一代這個是最重要的一個課題"},{"start":6697.935,"end":6718.94,"text":"好,那我想呢今天很多人可能會在講說什麼能源錯誤啦然後跳電啦然後的停電啦我想問一下兩位尤其是我們的這個主委安全很重要但是很多人在講說現在是不是真的有所謂的跳電停電就是缺電等於缺電嗎跳電停電等於缺電嗎這個部分是不是請你們來說做一個說明"},{"start":6727.496,"end":6741.845,"text":"我說明一下,跳電停電剛才講不是缺電因為它現在都是單獨的一個設施或一棟大樓去停這有可能是本身的一個設施或是外面有一些設備的那如果是缺電的話應該是這一整個區域它才會一整個去停電"},{"start":6748.509,"end":6766.541,"text":"所以跳電停電不等於台灣缺電這個是真的拜託大家一定要先有的一個觀念所以其實我在這邊就先糾正這個觀念然後再來我們談到所謂的能源政策我覺得一定要更理性再生能源的佔比其實從2023年相對的來講相較於2016年我們成長了將近快要8倍"},{"start":6773.405,"end":6776.73,"text":"那今年其實我們的占比一定會超過10%到了2025年會達到15%甚至到於2026年的10月我們將到達20%的一個目標所以其實我們的供電絕對會更加的穩定"},{"start":6788.746,"end":6806.408,"text":"當時﹖"},{"start":6809.329,"end":6815.912,"text":"他那時候要交接的時候只有備載我們的用電的備載容量只有1.6%對不對但是到現在我們經歷過了前面八年的努力我們現在都至少維持百分之十甚至以上所以會跳電會缺電就等會跳電會停電就等於缺電嗎我想這邊我打一個非常大的一個問號"},{"start":6837.382,"end":6866.249,"text":"再來我們的供電其實也真的更加的穩定了那我想全力發展再生的能源我們在用低碳燃氣作為橋接的一個能源這才是真正比較專業真正比較全面的一個能源政策而不是目光如豆用政治性的語言一直在架空台灣一直要我們說我們不行我們就用法律來把它改到行"},{"start":6867.189,"end":6890.11,"text":"這真的是叫無賴的行為對我來講好再來最重要的核電能不能夠再運轉核廢料放在哪裡這才是最基本的問題我想他們在修改法條的時候這個部分我不知道他們敢不敢講我們這個部分是不是來做一下解釋目前他們"},{"start":6890.831,"end":6906.715,"text":"核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等"},{"start":6921.162,"end":6936.913,"text":"幹事儲存目前才開始在起步我們核一核二廠其實都已經運轉40年所以有些燃料在爐心還沒辦法拿出來最終處置設施我們碰到極大的困難"},{"start":6938.054,"end":6960.123,"text":"主要是民意溝通、地方政府的態度、我們天然的地質、選址的困難等等。我在報告裡面都有提到相關的情況。即便在國際上永久設施還是極為困難的問題,即便美國目前也沒有。"},{"start":6961.872,"end":6982.499,"text":"好,所以目前其實還沒有達到全民的共識甚至我們的核廢料的問題還是基於最重要的還是安全上的一個問題連我們看到核一、核二尤其是我們的核二跟新北市政府最近才剛剛行政調解而已那這個問題沒有解決有可能再運轉嗎?如果核二這個桿處沒有解決沒辦法再運轉"},{"start":6990.834,"end":7003.007,"text":"這個就是我們的結論那很多人可能在講說為什麼剛剛我也聽到另外一位委員在講說日本可以為什麼我們不行所以日本發生了什麼事情"},{"start":7004.878,"end":7027.949,"text":"就是講我們那個審查安全為什麼我們要3到5年甚至要5年到10年這是不是只有就安全這兩個字是不是就是安全的問題安全至關重要所以剛剛他們在講說日本可以啊為什麼日本可以不用為什麼我們台灣要所以日本有沒有輔導的問題問一下"},{"start":7032.128,"end":7051.918,"text":"安全是所有的最終最終最主要的元件然後那麼我們要核安會就是要確保所有就是安全可以確保那麼才會有後續的一些問題那當然核廢料也是必要處理的事情那剛才我提到是廢料就相關的難度"},{"start":7053.32,"end":7076.479,"text":"所以就算核電廠要重新再運轉我們也必須要在期限之內申請這是本來就應該的但是我們看到了有很多人的版本他其實就把這個所謂的不行要改到行把申請期限安全所設定的申請期限這些文字全數刪除"},{"start":7078.2,"end":7106.527,"text":"甚至還有人的版本說只要主管機關認定他的安全無虞的時候就可以相對來講就可以無照運轉啦就是這個意思這樣對嗎這個核安會沒辦法接受啦齁那麼所有東西還是要以安全為考量沒有經過安檢就沒有辦法確保沒辦法再營運我們會裡面也沒有人敢承擔沒有安檢就可以合法執照"},{"start":7107.427,"end":7127.798,"text":"所以核安會是真的把關我們的核安最重要的一個部門應該這麼講不是只有你們不能接受光是我們一般的民眾我們也沒辦法接受是這樣子在玩這種所謂的文字上的一個遊戲所以我真的誠懇的建議"},{"start":7129.259,"end":7149.014,"text":"為什麼我們要有所謂的一定要在申請期限當中是基於安全兩個字如果只是因人設施我先設建我再劃吧我再劃吧那簡直就是罔顧核能的安全所以你說他要再運轉第一我們沒有缺電的問題"},{"start":7150.015,"end":7169.17,"text":"第二、我們的再生能源現在的效率其實真的比過去要多上非常多所以這才是我們的主軸所以核能最重要的是安全兩個字沒有安全為前提今天如果要進入所謂的法條上的審查本席在這裡堅決反對謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":7177.865,"end":7179.126,"text":"竹偉請教你今天是做公務車來立法院的嗎?"},{"start":7204.81,"end":7226.286,"text":"那你知道我們公務車是有一個汰換年限的嗎?根據足跡總署的規定,公務車使用滿15年或行駛里程數超過25萬公里就可以辦理汰換。主要也是考量到安全性這件事情。那我們現在大家有辦法想像嗎?一台車零40年的老車,就像我們的河山場,"},{"start":7227.327,"end":7249.188,"text":"他的舊時的製造規格沒有經過嚴謹的這個耐撞測試就有可能會造成我們的一些使用上面行車上面的風險大家敢讓這樣大家敢在沒有確認安全無疑的狀況之下沒有嚴謹的安全檢查之下大家敢開這台車上路嗎我想這大家應該是非常清楚大家不會把自己的生命拿來當開玩笑"},{"start":7249.969,"end":7272.775,"text":"所以今天在討論核二核三的這些要不要解套的法案之前我們必須非常清楚的確認有沒有核能安全有沒有符合安全性這必須做一個務實的討論所以呢我們可以看到就是說從鈾礦開採到核電廚藝其實都有核廢料最久持續一萬年那在台灣我們會要處理的就是低階核廢料也就是說這些被污染的衣服啊工具啊建築體"},{"start":7274.099,"end":7297.894,"text":"那再來就是高階的核廢料燃料棒所以呢我想我們就先來處理這兩個部分喔因為這是在台灣我們必須面對的問題喔那在高階核廢料呢現在呢據我得到的資料在失事儲存的狀況核一、核二現在是滿存的那核三呢空間有限那爐心呢核一還有724宿核二還有1248宿"},{"start":7301.937,"end":7324.716,"text":"我想問主委喔,全世界哪一個國家核電廠已經用了40年,燃料棒還無法處理,還無法退出的?有嗎?全世界現在沒有國家是這個樣子啦。完全沒有對不對?大概只有台灣。只有台灣嘛,好。那再來為什麼呢?為什麼我們會造成這樣子的問題呢?主委可以幫我們做個說明嗎?為什麼一直還在燃料棒裡面沒有辦法退出來勒?"},{"start":7325.925,"end":7347.654,"text":"我想地方政府的態度啦,那麼有一些民意的難度嘛。民意的抗爭嘛,對不對?大家都不希望核的廢料放在自己家旁邊嘛,大家都有安全的顧慮嘛,對不對?好,所以至少我得到的資料是核一要到年底才有可能啟用開工,對不對?那核二要到使用大概要至少五年,我這個資料是正確的嗎?"},{"start":7350.479,"end":7373.542,"text":"最快最快核二大概要在三年,那那個年底啟用核一可能要到明年,明年中。好,了解。好,那但是我們核三我所得到的資料是現在是沒有的,而且最終處置廠現在也是沒有著落的。那我想請教主委,全世界哪一個國家用了核電廠40年還沒有這些乾除設置?"},{"start":7376.129,"end":7397.745,"text":"沒有,就只有台灣吧。也還是只有台灣嘛,對不對?好,所以我們現在如果要去處理這個核廢料,我們如果要解套的話,我們就必須解決核廢料的問題嘛,對不對?所以啊,從你的安全性的專業,我們現在喔,如果沒有辦法處理核廢料,我們可以來討論再度啟用或研議這個事情嗎?"},{"start":7399.315,"end":7413.749,"text":"以核二廠來講是完全沒有辦法因為燃料在爐心沒辦法拿出來然後這個燃料池已經接近額滿所以它就是沒辦法燃出來我沒辦法放新的燃料下去"},{"start":7414.89,"end":7441.165,"text":"那核三廠其實有限大概在幾年的運轉的期間但是我們現在也還沒有乾除嘛對不對都沒有嘛所以我們現在基本上現在修了這個法能夠解套解決我們核廢料的問題嗎?最終處置廠的問題嗎?乾除必須興建我剛才在報告裡面有Underline乾除必須興建不管將來是要廚藝或研藝乾除都必須興建"},{"start":7442.557,"end":7469.349,"text":"對,但是我們現在的法其實也沒有去處理這個高階核廢料的選址嘛對不對我們現在是沒有的嘛所以我們根本沒有解決核廢料的處置問題嘛這個問題沒有辦法解決的話我們現在在做什麼任何的討論其實都是違反安全的原則再來就是低階的部分就是在被汙染的衣服跟工具建築體的這些低階的核廢料根據低放射性的廢棄物處置"},{"start":7471.03,"end":7488.909,"text":"設施管制法第六條條文修正草。經濟部其實曾經建議過兩個候選場址需要辦地方公投,當時是選在台東達仁與金門烏丘。我想要了解這兩個地方發生了什麼事情,為什麼我們到現在還是放在蘭嶼的暫時儲存場還有三座核電廠跟核驗所內呢?"},{"start":7492.629,"end":7508.722,"text":"根據這個條例必須要通過地方的公投,那兩個縣政府,臺東縣政府跟金門縣政府都是愛南同意,就是他沒有辦法辦理,那這個就是到現在沒辦法公投。"},{"start":7509.463,"end":7526.202,"text":"瞭解齁所以嘛就是無解嘛對不對就算是連第一階段我們都無解嘛就是無法處理啊那其實中研院其實在2022年11月有發布一個臺灣淨零科技研發政策建議書就有提到核電的主力最大主力就是放射性廢棄物的最終組織廠"},{"start":7528.224,"end":7547.444,"text":"所以這個地方其實還有非常大的一個挑戰我們必須要來解決那再來就是義軍核電廠的一個報告核三廠東側緊鄰恆春活動斷層西側外海也有逆沖斷層所以之前也有考慮到這些地震可能會造成的一些問題那我想要請教主委到底這個地方"},{"start":7548.385,"end":7558.724,"text":"假設我們都沒有做任何確認發生事故的話他會被影響到我們住在高雄地區的人民的一些可能空氣啦飲用水啊等等的問題可不可以請你就轉眼給我們一個說明"},{"start":7560.1,"end":7585.181,"text":"那個地震其實是有一些潛在的威脅那主要是看震源那如果震源是在接近這個比如三角斷層、橫沿斷層那這個部分我們會相對的比較憂心那麼河岸會對這個耐震有做了一些處置但是天然災害有不可預測性那麼我們必須謹慎為之"},{"start":7587.883,"end":7604.31,"text":"那我想因為其實這個聽起來就是說如果這個地震可能還是一個存在的隱憂嘛對不對那他如果不小心真的向外洩他其實對我們都要使用的農產品也好或食用水也好可能都會造成影響所以我想要講的一件事情就是說我們每一個人其實都生活在這塊土地上面"},{"start":7605.558,"end":7631.186,"text":"我們的小孩、我們未來的子子孫孫世世代代都會居住在台灣這個土地上面如果我們今天沒有辦法解決核廢料沒有辦法處理好安全這個問題我們就要進入修法來讓核二跟核三可以進入解套的話那其實我覺得我們對這個我們等於沒有在為安全跟人民的性命來做一個把關那國民黨口口聲聲說要這個為能源政策提出一個解方"},{"start":7631.986,"end":7656.431,"text":"但是這整個過程之中今天如果下午就要排定修法這是一個這麼爭議性的法案我們沒有經過任何的公聽會的討論那我想這個程序上面我覺得是有非常大的問題例如像我們過去國民黨從在國會擴權惡法到選罷法到現在我們都不做任何討論嗎?我們都沒有要傾聽任何的民意嗎?我們完全不顧人們的性命安全嗎?"},{"start":7658.55,"end":7683.742,"text":"我們到底有沒有把人民放在心中我們每一位立委的選票都是從人民的手上得來的我們每一個人都是帶著人民的寄託跟期待和使命來到了立法院我們不該做傷害人民的事情即便今天政黨立場不同人民的生命都不該成為政治鬥爭的犧牲品所以我要建請我們的總召委"},{"start":7685.783,"end":7696.185,"text":"在今天我們不要進入逐條審查讓我們好好的請聽民意來回應我們人民來好好的為我們人民的生命做個把關謝謝謝謝好謝謝那接下來我們請翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員羅廷維委員羅廷維委員羅廷維委員"},{"start":7717.004,"end":7721.767,"text":"陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員吳沛逸委員吳沛逸委員吳沛逸委員范雲委員"},{"start":7739.028,"end":7741.631,"text":"謝謝召委,有請我們陳主委還有次長跟那個董事長。好,我們請陳主委我們的連次長還有我們的曾董事長。"},{"start":7750.779,"end":7750.819,"text":"范議員范議員"},{"start":7775.398,"end":7784.288,"text":"當陳主委已經講了嘛,全世界沒有一個國家,像我們一樣用了核電廠40年,然後到現在都沒有乾式主存廠了,對不對?主委,那你可不可以簡單講一句話,為什麼乾式主存廠一直都拖延,沒有辦法依照進度,主要是為什麼?"},{"start":7796.145,"end":7819.901,"text":"那個過去主要是新北市政府跟台電新北市政府是誰的任內一直阻撓應該朱縣長吧朱縣長到侯市長朱市長到侯市長嘛那到現在都沒有辦法處理那中期的主存場我們有沒有解方"},{"start":7821.431,"end":7848.107,"text":"現在也沒有。現在沒解方,全世界有幾個國家有高階核廢料的中期解方,最終處置場?那個最終處置場,我知道大概只有芬蘭,現在才在試營運階段。那這是高階的就燃料棒,低階的核廢料,全世界有沒有一個國家像台灣,一直放在蘭嶼,一直對不起蘭嶼人?"},{"start":7849.397,"end":7858.683,"text":"第一階核廢料全世界就比較多了那麼台灣現在也碰到困難有困難困難我們台灣蘭嶼我們已經放在那邊幾年了核廢料71年到現在71年我們請台電董事長過來台電董事長請問台電當時有告訴過蘭嶼人說核廢料放在蘭嶼嗎"},{"start":7878.172,"end":7887.808,"text":"這個已經有過相關的補償我想也都查過了是沒有講清楚好那我們本來台電規劃什麼時候要把核廢料退出蘭嶼"},{"start":7890.697,"end":7911.907,"text":"我們有在其他的地方找第一階核廢料的儲存廠然後其實因為現在這一個就是第一階廢料的這個儲存廠的法律裡面規定要地方辦公投公投其實一直都沒有辦法順利進行所以因為這樣子我們一直對不起蘭嶼人我這樣講對吧"},{"start":7915.879,"end":7915.999,"text":"案案案案案案"},{"start":7935.734,"end":7961.693,"text":"第一件核廢料,101年詢問過金門縣政府這個也請陳玉珍委員注意一下如果你要投票支持的話金門縣政府說欠男配合辦理連公投都不願意辦理台東縣政府也說無法協助辦理公民投票事項這個都是公文所以到現在為止為什麼無法簽出至少有金門縣政府台東縣政府都連公投都不願意辦"},{"start":7962.654,"end":7988.753,"text":"那我們看一下現在我們偉大的國民黨總召聽說今天為什麼我們教文要排這個是國民黨總召傅坤琦要求排的沒有一個我們教文委員的提案啊這都是非教文委員提案要演繹啊那我們的國民黨總召擔任花蓮縣長的時候他說高階核廢料最終處置長連探勘都不能夠在花蓮探勘因為當時的專業說只有花蓮喔就是"},{"start":7992.691,"end":7998.435,"text":"當時他說這樣會扼殺花蓮縣觀光命脈而且他還說這個違反我們對原住民是一個他力挺秀林鄉原住民北上出草抗爭所以連探勘能不能放高階核廢料探勘都不行喔"},{"start":8019.991,"end":8024.534,"text":"結果2019年花蓮縣長徐真偉他也說他會要考慮花蓮的地震頻繁跟在地原住民反對的民意這是2019年就2021年花蓮縣長徐真偉他居然支持核四續建強調說現在核廢料放哪裡就放哪裡這不是就是一個最好的例子嗎花蓮這對不知道現在是不是還是夫妻的"},{"start":8047.327,"end":8047.347,"text":"案 。"},{"start":8062.449,"end":8077.537,"text":"案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條"},{"start":8090.103,"end":8111.944,"text":"被認為的相關縣市政府連公投都拒絕放。我們的國民黨總召傅坤祺說連探勘都不尊重原住民請問他尊重過萊嶼的原住民嗎?國民黨的總召、國民黨的召委、國民黨科智恩召委也請你問一下你們的總召為什麼?"},{"start":8112.705,"end":8137.426,"text":"花蓮不行,台東藍雨行。」這是核廢料問題,這無法解決的話,我不知道我們怎麼對得起下一代的子仙。我想請問我們核安會主委,請問你,那個從低階到高階的核廢料要多少年才能夠完全安全?高階核廢料目前估計是2055年,"},{"start":8140.653,"end":8160.898,"text":"我意思是說核廢料最終處置場要埋放多少年才會安全?十萬年各位有沒有聽到?就算我們找到一個地方要放十萬年才能夠完全讓它對人體傷害的毒性消失"},{"start":8161.858,"end":8164.002,"text":"所以這次到底是據說對台灣來講的話我們有什麼條件處理這個部分我們都還沒有講請問主委您再講一次我問過你了就是核三廠核一核二當時蓋的時候知道他們都可能有地震帶嗎"},{"start":8178.231,"end":8187.977,"text":"當時蓋的時候不清楚有這個恆春…完全不知道有地震帶嘛所以今天如果就算要做安全的審查也非常可能不過關嘛那請剛剛我們經濟次長無法回答我想最後再問台電董事長"},{"start":8195.04,"end":8208.168,"text":"這個安全齁 這個已經用了40年的核電廠齁 就算你要讓它有安全的物業廠的話 你估計可能要花費多少因為剛剛經濟部次長無法回答這個問題 這個成本代價你想一下是億還是兆或什麼 一個單位有沒有辦法估計"},{"start":8217.266,"end":8246.246,"text":"我們現在看到國外做的一些相關狀況都是千億的狀況千億以上剛才有提到日本的一些日本有些基礎原液的狀況用台幣來算的話是千億千億以上光是一個廠可能代價就千億以上對不對要維持他的安全嘛因為用了40年的核電廠他有好多東西要做很多東西要弄好那請問我們台電董事長這樣算起來核電還是便宜的嗎"},{"start":8247.674,"end":8269.063,"text":"看他做多久發電的度數去除那個我要這樣講跟委員報告就是說做研議相關的工作他要的支出的成本是一件事那我們現在面對的是最終處置也是不確定的東西我們其實在這件事情上台電最大的為難是我們會遇到很多不確定的事所以我們才一直在講"},{"start":8270.183,"end":8290.326,"text":"我們用缺電的邏輯來講核電其實沒有辦法讓核電在安全的前提下來做選擇好那最後我想請大家看一下2011年福島核災日本國土有8%受到放射性的污染到現在據說我們國民黨也反"},{"start":8290.646,"end":8290.686,"text":"案。」案。"},{"start":8320.606,"end":8320.626,"text":"案。」"},{"start":8352.147,"end":8378.902,"text":"謝謝剛剛本席之前有特別提到在羅廷偉委員質詢結束之後我們休息五分鐘那因為羅廷偉委員前面的翁曉琳沒有到然後羅廷偉委員不在現場所以照過去來說呢我就用唱名三次的方法一路過去然後造成各位委員感知不及所以委員剛剛跟議事人員充分溝通完之後我做成以下的決定在休息五分鐘完之後呢我們由羅廷偉委員"},{"start":8379.642,"end":8379.822,"text":"案案。"},{"start":8416.837,"end":8422.23,"text":"規矩總召沒有邀請我,他沒有跟我做這個,我是自主的啊,他為什麼要求我做這個審查,不會啊。"},{"start":8773.631,"end":8774.892,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會,我們接下來請羅廷維委員。好,羅委員好。"},{"start":8796.84,"end":8816.031,"text":"那主委在正式討論之前夏天真的到了回家想跟你請問一下你自己會開冷氣嗎會本期在體感上感覺到今年真的是比往年悶熱許多你最近有沒有這樣的一個想法呢是的有那我想你還記得815全台大停電嗎這件事情"},{"start":8817.618,"end":8841.318,"text":"知道好2017年8月15號16點51分突然發生五一警大停電噢噪音就是中油對台電大潭發電廠停電器供應管線吶因拒入國際公司更換卡片不成噢造成的意外運作噢那導致大潭的發電廠六部機組全部停電進而造成了全台全台的一個電力備轉容量不足"},{"start":8841.618,"end":8870.537,"text":"公電的系統避免全面崩潰啟動的保護措施。」之後呢2017年9月8號天下雜誌就做了一個專題啊當時就說台灣公電年年吃緊2024年最危急也有標示出啊要撐過2024年結果呢去年天下更新了試算結果標題變了變成2025年台灣恐上演大停電我最擔心的是什麼我覺得政府啊面對自己的能源政策"},{"start":8871.237,"end":8892.146,"text":"案件,不是說完完全全的不要認錯,或者是認定它是錯誤,而是有沒有一個檢討機制,有沒有辦法去做滾動式的一個檢討。如果這樣子沒有去做任何的一個檢討,而且也不願意承認現在是缺電的一個進行式推動再生能源之餘,我們一直將所有不足的投入到燃煤跟燃氣。"},{"start":8893.226,"end":8915.352,"text":"我想這個對台中來說是一個非常重要的一個議題我們支持綠電的一個發展但是問題台中可以看到火力發電不斷的節節攀升燃煤跟燃氣一直不斷的上升都會影響到台中中部人的一個相關發電影響的健康今天我想請問幾個問題第一個 諸位我們第一次呢"},{"start":8916.172,"end":8942.126,"text":"在討論核能研議的一個議題是今年4月您在答詢的上面直接回答核安會不是能源政策的主管機關尊重立法院的決議而在上週經濟部長針對核三是否研議的意見也是尊重立法院的決定立法院怎麼定經濟部怎麼執行那我想詢問一下主委也就是說核安會會尊重經濟部經濟部會尊重立法院沒錯吧"},{"start":8943.752,"end":8967.048,"text":"今天我們終於要排審法案請問主委您的立場還是如此嗎?是的但是所有的條件都是以安全為前提安全是最重要的啦我能夠認同剛剛有委員所提到的也就是我們的核廢料處理的問題要怎麼去做一個探討但是我覺得應該還中部人一個公道"},{"start":8967.628,"end":8986.999,"text":"在處理核廢料的一個這個事件上我們要積極的去探討但在處理碳排量影響到中部人的健康是不是能夠一併來檢討而不是核廢料極其重要然後中部人用非發電就不重要我想兩者應該都一樣重要吧"},{"start":8987.759,"end":9009.326,"text":"主委您覺得呢?是的,這個有好幾個面向,一個是安全,一個是核廢料,一個是空氣污染。那另外我想請問,剛剛我們有提到這個核能延益的問題,我想跟您就較專業。以世界來說,核能延益在世界有沒有這樣的案例?非常多,大概60%。"},{"start":9011.288,"end":9021.836,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條條文修"},{"start":9035.25,"end":9045.67,"text":"不是不是對吧所以我們將這個年限拿掉以後要不要繼續研議是由行政主管機關來做決定是吧"},{"start":9046.894,"end":9072.232,"text":"是的,但是有前提,剛才我們提到了。安全。安全。我知道,但我需要跟你探討的是,今天我們探討這個法案,不會因為我們立法委員修了這個法,我們就一定要強制用核能來發電,而是還是交由行政主管機關,也就是現在的執政黨所相關的能源政策去做部署、規劃,由你們來決定要不要繼續來研議嗎?是這樣子沒錯吧?"},{"start":9075.221,"end":9097.349,"text":"還是我過度解讀我剛才提到很多的問題安全要面臨的很多的面向核廢料也要面臨很多的面向那這些有需要一些時間那麼它整個時程是不是可行那麼這個必須要審慎評估所以剛剛我們說了這麼多我們今天只是在探討要不要將這個彈性"},{"start":9099.41,"end":9127.267,"text":"讓主管機關有機會去拿捏去做一個探討並不是說我們今天把這個法案修了你們就一定要核能發電我想這個部分留有這一個行政主管機關來保有最後的決定權這個是你們的權利對吧但我想在另外請問叫您本身因為核能安全是你的專業那你們有在探討所謂的現在核三原液它的危險"},{"start":9128.428,"end":9132.313,"text":"是有還是沒有?風險你們內部有做規劃嗎?"},{"start":9135.91,"end":9160.129,"text":"風險必須看核三的機組去做安全的檢查目前有檢查過嗎?或者是有探討研議的可能性嗎?目前應該是沒有,台電沒有吧?沒有都沒有研議?也沒有探討過?沒有探討過好,謝謝我想我要再帶到這個我們現在看到世界的一個發展昨天李遠哲上節目有說這個相關的言論你應該很清楚"},{"start":9161.01,"end":9188.71,"text":"我想這位前輩所提到的雖然核能有其危險的地方但比起面對人類從地球上滅絕這是一個好的選項主委你個人認同這句話嗎我想我尊重李院長的發言好那我想在2050年淨零碳排到底需不需要核能主委您4月親口說過很難排除的選項您現在還是保留這樣子的說法嗎"},{"start":9189.266,"end":9190.547,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具《核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":9211.796,"end":9239.317,"text":"地熱新型核能有列入在你們的範圍內嗎?新型核能也看嘛如果是沒有這個核廢料那麼我們可以考慮那當然這個這個核融合那當然這個我們上一次報告5月29號有提到這個東西那這個世界上其實發展還需要一段時間目前在技術上有非常大的困難然後就到商業運轉"},{"start":9241.783,"end":9263.523,"text":"好,我想這個行政院長卓榮泰上次上個月也說非核家園的年限已經不在那行政院秘書長龔明星在擔任國發會的時候也說能源政策調整是可以討論的那已經成為了一個選項對執政黨來說我想依照現行的核管法研議要在五年前提出已經過了此限,因此卡關,對嗎?"},{"start":9266.172,"end":9295.572,"text":"我想核三長要研議有兩種路徑一個是修改核子反應器設施運轉執照的申請核消申請的辦法第16條讓取消執照有效期限屆滿在5年至15年進行換照的申請另一條就是修改核管法第6條讓研議不受審核辦法的限制但卓院長之前就說好就說沒有考慮修核管法也就是說不會有院版在沒有院版的情況下只要審幾個"},{"start":9296.812,"end":9300.634,"text":"條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具"},{"start":9319.424,"end":9331.49,"text":"同樣重要讓我們來把審慎思考讓整個法令能夠有所完善最後尊重我們主管機關能夠做相關的能源部署這是我們以上的一個態度謝謝接下來請葉元之委員"},{"start":9346.111,"end":9351.075,"text":"主席好麻煩請核能會主委陳主委好陳主委謝謝葉委員好主委好現在總統府有成立一個氣候變遷對策委員會您知道嗎"},{"start":9362.2,"end":9387.069,"text":"那有沒有開始運作?通知您去開會有沒有?表達意見?沒有,沒有通知從來沒有通知過你喔?沒有那是總統府成立的喔我們都知道說總統的權力應該是台灣最大的啦所以以總統府的決定為準啦那現在總統府我剛剛講那個氣候變遷對策委員會的副召集人童子賢講了一句話他說台灣現在沒有讓核電退場的條件"},{"start":9388.61,"end":9397.583,"text":"其實就跟我們今天修法的目標是一致的那我不知道主委對於童子賢就是這個委員會的副召集人所講的話你有沒有反對他的意見"},{"start":9398.747,"end":9427.706,"text":"我尊重那個...有沒有反對?不是尊重反...因為現在政策是立場啦沒有什麼尊重不尊重啦這今天講的是政策你是支持還是反對?核安會在這個核能的上面它是一個獨立機關它沒有特定的不是因為我們不是如果今天那今天修法就不用你來了嘛我們現在就是要討論要不要修法嘛所以問你的意見嘛那現在童子賢的意見跟我們今天修法方向一模一樣我現在問的是說你對於童子賢的看法你是支持還是反對?"},{"start":9429.608,"end":9457.605,"text":"我再次強調齁沒有沒有主委這個不能逃避不好意思你不能逃避你必須要回答你對於童子賢的意見是支持還是反對我沒有意見你沒有意見那你今天來答詢要幹嘛不是你不能逃避啦現在請問一下你對童子賢的意見支持還是反對不是尊重如果政府機關講的話你支持你就會說支持啦所以我就解讀你是反對啦但你不好意思講啦所以你說尊重啦齁那"},{"start":9459.093,"end":9486.915,"text":"李遠哲說核電雖然有缺點但是跟人類滅絕比較起來核電還是要繼續使用主委你認為核電使用的缺點比較大還是人類滅絕的影響比較大我想我也尊重不是啦主委你不能什麼都尊重啦政務官要有肩膀啦現在我講的都是你們民進黨的人講的話欸你都從頭尊重到尾"},{"start":9488.513,"end":9516.5,"text":"那今天修法請你來不就是要問你的看法跟意見嗎?你從頭到尾都尊重那這個詢問有什麼意義?不能夠逃避好不好?這個是立場我如果今天問你政治性口水什麼東西你說尊重我都沒有意見現在問的是跟你職權有關的政策議題沒有什麼尊重不尊重人家童子賢人家李遠哲人家都可以大方的對媒體表他的看法身為政務官的您居然問到跟你職權相關的議題你只能尊重那你一點肩膀都沒有欸"},{"start":9517,"end":9517.561,"text":"核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草"},{"start":9534.278,"end":9534.298,"text":"案 。"},{"start":9557.616,"end":9582.567,"text":"我想這個安全還是最重要的我問你反不反對這個條這個法案的修正那他必須先去解釋他的不是啦主委我舉個例子好了我們前一段時間我們在討論那個學生輔導法那教育部來大家就問他說你對於第一條有沒有意見對第二條有沒有意見第三條有沒有意見教育部長有沒有跟你一樣我尊重我沒有我只是什麼教育單位跟我無關"},{"start":9584.181,"end":9607.902,"text":"教育部來討論修法就是要表達看法表達意見我現在就問你意見就你從頭跟我尊重到尾我想還要看這個大約我現在就問你說這個條文你的態度是什麼我現在就是問你這個條文的態度是什麼那以後每個政府機關都選你就好了啊來跟我們委員討論條文他從頭尊重到尾"},{"start":9609.295,"end":9636.517,"text":"你的態度是什麼嗎?我想我們必須就條文本身具體的討論那你現在對條文哪一條有意見?哪一個文字有意見?我在報告裡面有提到五個版本你說反對就反對在場很多民進黨立委可能都是反對的等一下都要表達意見我現在是問你的態度嘛是的我在報告裡面有提到五個版本或有差異是不是可以合併討論合併討論然後你就支持是不是?"},{"start":9637.648,"end":9641.373,"text":"就是看大家可不可以打個公式。合併討論你的態度是什麼嘛?那好好 主委繼續問本來大家反核的聲音蠻大的之前發生福島核災的時候反核聲音很大現在已經非常多人跳出來支持核電了你知道原因是什麼嗎?"},{"start":9658.715,"end":9668.98,"text":"你知道原因是什麼嗎?主要是低碳嘛。要達到2050。低碳是一個嘛。李遠哲就是這個看法嘛。要淨零碳排嘛。否則人類滅絕嘛。還有沒有別的?能源需求吧。能源需求嘛。怕缺電嘛。還有嗎?還有沒有?"},{"start":9678.464,"end":9702.06,"text":"有很多包括像是國安的問題因為我們如果大量仰賴天然氣台灣並沒有產天然氣所以到時候如果被包圍的話天然氣進不來還有電價的問題因為綠能的電價一度是比較貴的這個是大家現在開始認為核能可以考慮要使用的原因當然核安也是非常重要當然對於核電的影響大家還是要減少它對於環境的影響當然大家比較嚴"},{"start":9708.339,"end":9714.364,"text":"擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員"},{"start":9736.385,"end":9753.035,"text":"其中78部有獲得他們的主管機關NRC的審查而且同意研議。換句話說美國的機組也有研議的經驗而且分兩次一次它的運轉執照年限延長到60年後來有6部再申請再運轉"},{"start":9754.096,"end":9774.714,"text":"後來申請就延長到80年。」換句話說他還是有一個審查的過程讓他的核電廠可以研議所以研議不是說不可以在美國的經驗是這樣那美國在審查他們的機組研議的時候他們會評估什麼呢也是一樣評估對於安全跟對環境的影響那他們的審查的"},{"start":9775.902,"end":9800.455,"text":"年限的中位數字落在兩年多左右。」換句話說我是要提醒主委啦今天這麼多人呼籲說沒有停止核電的條件如果到時候台電要去申請研議的話他的審查的時間其實也是會有一定的時間可能會有一年到兩年所以到時候現在大家一直呼籲一直呼籲一直呼籲都聽不進去等到真的要用的時候"},{"start":9801.516,"end":9821.647,"text":"你不是馬上可以用的你不是馬上可以用的那更何況我們現在法律還卡在那邊那第二個我要提醒主委的是我們的核廢料的問題我們的核廢料核一、核二、核三廠所面臨的狀況是完全不一樣的核一、核二他們的燃料池都已經滿了現在是乾式儲存槽都沒有蓋所以這個部分"},{"start":9824.093,"end":9849.804,"text":"我希望台電或者是核安會可以積極跟地方政府溝通,看到底問題卡在哪裡。核一廠的乾式儲存槽是已經過了嘛,那一定要如質如實的興建。核二廠問題卡在哪?如果是水保問題也要去解決,不是就放在那邊。那核三廠問題比較簡單,因為它的私式儲存槽就是燃料池並沒有滿,所以核三廠如果要研議的話是一個比較可行的方案。"},{"start":9851.624,"end":9870.909,"text":"合一合二現在過去地方政府比較有疑慮是因為我們現在政府一直沒有找到一個永久的儲存場一直沒有找我上次也在這邊質詢過給我的感覺是完全沒有在找丟了一句話說因為地方有意見所以就不去找了感覺就是擺爛啊我必須要說就是擺爛那難道核電廠不研議就沒有核廢料嗎我們看一個資料"},{"start":9878.1,"end":9890.17,"text":"我們不雙轉直接廚藝一樣有核廢料的問題這是核三廠預估兩部機組在廚藝期間也都會產生低放射性的廢棄物換句話說大概會有55加侖約為81374桶的核廢料所以核廢料"},{"start":9897.318,"end":9919.185,"text":"不是你停議就不處理啦不管你要不要停議不管你要不要延役不管你要不要再使用都要積極去處理核廢料問題第一方面符合地方政府期待第二你還是不斷產生核廢料也是要去解決那如果要延役的話更是要解決所以希望政府拿出你們的執行力不要遇到這東西就在擺爛了謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝主委謝謝葉映智委員接下來是陳培宇委員"},{"start":9932.295,"end":9935.016,"text":"好,謝謝主席,那有請主委。好,請主委。好,陳委員好。好,主委你好。我相信所有的教育及文化委員會的委員都會非常在意一件事情。當我們在這邊討論這麼複雜,不管是所謂再運轉、研議或是核廢料,對於一般國家的公民來說,我們其實在意的是安全這件事情,是您的主管,對吧?"},{"start":9959.605,"end":9967.447,"text":"那就您的專業角度來看在這個相關法條當中剛剛有非常多的委員一直要您表態我想要我不要問表態我想要就您的安全給我們建議我想要問一個條文他這樣寫適不適當有一個委員的版本他寫的是前效運轉執照有效期間為40年期滿需繼續運轉者"},{"start":9982.03,"end":10008.81,"text":"經營者得依主管機關規定申請換發執照。他下面甚至寫:「主管機關不得以藉其實現,拒絕換發申請。」民事主管機關,他這樣要求,請問我們怎麼看待這個行政跟立法之間的這個邏輯?這個部分,一般法案很少規定自己主管的法律,不得"},{"start":10009.875,"end":10021.039,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第6會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第6會期教育及文化委員王鴻"},{"start":10039.546,"end":10057.883,"text":"應該是不行吧就如同剛剛葉元之委員他拿學輔法來舉例我就先不要說他那一天在場有沒有關於學輔法他有任何的關懷跟發言我就不予置評那一天從頭做到尾的是我們民進黨所有的教育文化委員會的委員還有國民黨的召委柯志恩主席"},{"start":10058.764,"end":10072.668,"text":"我就先不管他當天談了學復法什麼關懷但是就他剛剛一直要你表態這件事情我想要請主委我們絕對支持您的專業跟您背後所帶領的專家團隊來看待這個安全的議題請問我這樣的論述是否合理謝謝"},{"start":10079.657,"end":10080.858,"text":"核子反應器設施管制法"},{"start":10097.148,"end":10113.284,"text":"完全正確那國人會問核安是什麼我們來往下看一看今天所有的國民黨委員的版本裡面他們說要把這個版本修完我就問如果把這個版本修完難道就可以解決所謂的核安疑慮嗎我自己的觀點是不行的"},{"start":10113.624,"end":10142.984,"text":"但是在國民黨委員的版本裡面他們不斷提出美國、法國、歐洲、日本我相信他們手上的資料跟數據主委你一定是清楚的但是我可不可以問一個事情我們在搬移任何國家的相關經驗跟法規之前我們要不要考慮台灣的地理環境人文社會條件還有我們目前剛剛葉元志委員自己也講了核廢料儲存的問題這些事情它會不會有國情差異"},{"start":10145.426,"end":10159.179,"text":"委員答得非常好,這個問題講得非常好。國家都會試自己的情況和抉擇,包含德國他是反核,到現在也是。"},{"start":10160.26,"end":10186.005,"text":"那麼台灣有自己面臨的情況那麼有民意的問題有核安的問題有核廢料的問題那很多的面向需要大家來凝聚共識好,所以如果你說的我們有國情的問題我們還有社會共識的問題甚至我們可能還有科普教育的問題因為每次只要談到相關議題我們就會看到有民間非常多造謠的圖卡"},{"start":10187.145,"end":10196.012,"text":"光是就這件事情我們其實就已經花很多很多很多力氣溝通我們今天就來談第一個問題難道美國真的沒有核廢料處理的問題跟老舊核電廠安全的疑慮嗎就你手上有的專業報告應該是有的吧因為我手上有的資料其實滿滿的都有說明其實美國自己也在面臨相關議題就算剛剛葉元芝委員他說美國已經把相關核電廠研議但是我們實際上看到資料為什麼要研議"},{"start":10215.626,"end":10229.702,"text":"因為他們已經沒有相關的成本或資源再投入興建新的核電廠於是他們是不得不的情況下做了這個處理我的論述是對的嗎?主委正確好那如果我們來看一下法國"},{"start":10230.503,"end":10245.583,"text":"法國目前其實他們的核電發電量也在下降我手上有這些資料我們辦公室花了很多力氣我們也討論甚至法國還有反應爐老化的問題回到台灣我們在相關的設備上難道不用考慮這些事情嗎"},{"start":10248.005,"end":10273.453,"text":"完全要考慮啦,那安全還是所有的前提。好,所以我們安全只是一個概念,一旦我討論到機組設置的問題,我討論核廢料,我甚至考慮到人民的共識,這些都包含在所謂的核安全底下,對嗎?也就是安全兩個字看起來很廣泛,但是我們要討論這麼多的細節,而且這裡面還有很多細節,它是跟科學專業背景有關,對嗎?"},{"start":10275.523,"end":10297.345,"text":"好,謝謝主委,那我們來往下看。在今天還有委員的版本,他的寫法是這樣寫的,我也是看不到啦。他說,這個,核電經營者因於執照有效期限借滿錢向主管機關申請換發執照,未取得換發執照之前不得繼續運轉,但經主管機關確認核子反應設施安全無虞時,得繼續運轉。"},{"start":10300.101,"end":10324.438,"text":"這個主管機關又是你了,主委。是的,這個部分我核安會不敢承擔,這個責任太重大了。是,那如果您說的這個責任重大,那我們就必須要把所有的事情一併拿起來考慮,不是嗎?還有剛剛葉元之委員自己一再提到核廢料儲存的問題,那我就說在跟地方縣市政府的溝通,其實這個要不要發照的權利在他們身上,對嗎?"},{"start":10326.174,"end":10339.098,"text":"我相信你們在過往跟地方政府的溝通上一定也是花了很多時間花了很多的討論甚至開了很多的會但是就您在任內你所認為在跟地方政府溝通上我們最大的困境是不是就是您剛剛說的民意"},{"start":10342.202,"end":10369.409,"text":"是民意的問題是民意的問題我們來看一下民意大家都知道我過去十幾年住在花蓮在花蓮開過書店我們來談一下核廢料我們來往下看去年11月曾經有民眾投書說台電內定在宜蘭南澳跟花蓮秀林交觸界作為高放處置場後來你們有所澄清我們再往下看過往其實這不是民眾第一次我們剛剛一直在談民意這件事情不是民眾第一次對於相關事情有疑慮"},{"start":10370.209,"end":10395.219,"text":"在傅坤祺總召12年前擔任花蓮縣長的時候新聞非常多他說當時是原能會跟台電不要亂倒核廢料成為歷史罪人否則他將率領原住民北上出草抗爭這是他當時在擔任縣長的時候的說法時隔12年關於核廢料這件事情我們是不是還有很多內容跟議題需要討論長路漫漫"},{"start":10397.952,"end":10424.179,"text":"是的,到目前沒有辦法解決。好,如果到目前沒有辦法解決,我就最後問,我的時間有限。我們修完今天所有的版本之後,就可以解決嗎?主委。問題還是存在的。對嘛,我相信您的法學素養跟我的法學素養,我怎麼看起來這些版本完全沒有辦法解決。連富坤崎總召自己也沒有辦法解決。所以我想在今天這個議題上,我們確實有待商榷,有待討論的地方還非常非常多,對嗎?主委。是的。"},{"start":10426.508,"end":10439.892,"text":"甚至跟我們的國家公民要溝通的內容也還非常多我想這條路上我們一起努力好嗎好謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝陳佩玉委員接下來是吳佩奕委員好謝謝主席我請何安慧請主委吳委員好"},{"start":10458.591,"end":10465.113,"text":"主委好,剛剛前面葉元智委員問你說,主委今天是要審法條嗎?因為今天為什麼我們現在為什麼在這裡?是因為國民黨的委員提了五個提案的版本,要來修核桿法的第六條。剛剛葉元智委員問你說,主委請問你對哪一條有意見?"},{"start":10481.244,"end":10485.148,"text":"顯然一人是委員連今天要修哪一條都不知道今天就只修一條就是第六條而已那在這裡我也想要向召委表示我的意見因為我們今天提案版本通通都是國民黨立委的版本那剛剛在前面提案說明裡面"},{"start":10498.743,"end":10503.125,"text":"我一直在聽這些提案委員有沒有對於第六條裡面的內容等會主委會跟你討論究竟他現在要放寬的是廚藝中的機組還是運轉中的機組每一個版本的提案文字通通不一樣法律的定義這麼不明確立法的品質這麼的粗糙但是剛剛在立委的提案說明裡面我通通沒有聽到"},{"start":10523.795,"end":10526.497,"text":"他們通通在講一些民間人士的意見請我們評論這個不叫做法案的詢答及討論那麼等一會如果按照今天的議程我們現在詢答完畢等一會如果要進入逐條審查的話我要求所有國民黨的提案委員必須仍要在現場要到場我們才審"},{"start":10545.762,"end":10552.624,"text":"不能說提案的委員提案說明也不說清楚審查法案人也不到場但現場通常是我們議長的委員這麼不負責任提了這些法案當中這麼多的問題涉及到核電廠老舊核電廠40年了還要去研議安全性的問題這非同小可"},{"start":10566.127,"end":10571.43,"text":"結果提案人說明也不說明等會如果沒有大廠的話我拒絕審查這個提案前面我要跟主委討論的是因為我在看今天我剛剛講說這提案好幾個委員提案的版本裡面因為我一直在看他們的文字的使用因為我想了解究竟這版本當中的意頭"},{"start":10587.94,"end":10590.303,"text":"現在主要就是說我們台灣就三座核電廠核一有二廠除役當中核三廠明年全部機組到期按照先行法規40年到期了如果要運轉必須向核安會提出申請而且要有審查審查要來通過了才可以換照"},{"start":10606.457,"end":10618.207,"text":"但是目前三個核電廠通通都已經超過研議的申請換照期限所以才會有今天我們在這裡國民黨的立委現在提的法案版本就是國民黨立委覺得他們比憲法還要大"},{"start":10622.751,"end":10622.771,"text":"案。"},{"start":10639.608,"end":10656.159,"text":"不是審一天、審兩天、審三個月半年可以審過的所以才有這個時間的年限但是我看到舉例羅志強委員提案版本當中他的這個文字主管機關不得已藉其時限來拒絕發申請來我請問主委如果按照你對這個條文的理解這個條文規定它是適用運轉中機組還是除役中機組還是兩者皆是還是並不明確"},{"start":10668.308,"end":10689.987,"text":"按照這個文字也就兩者皆是好再來我們來看王鴻薇委員提案的版本按照他的文字非經主管機關審核其功率試驗合格並發給運轉執照不得正式運轉運轉執照之有限期限最長為40年請問按照王鴻薇委員提案的版本這個法規適用的是運轉中機組或者除役中機組或者兩者皆是"},{"start":10693.716,"end":10699.141,"text":"或者不明確對你認為不明確沒有錯如果按照剛剛羅志強委員提案的版本這個法案如果通過不是核三場研議而已喔核一、核二場通通可以再來申請換照研議喔主委這個法條的理解是不是這個樣子"},{"start":10715.695,"end":10722.864,"text":"所以說這個每個版本都不一樣如果按照羅志祥委員提案我就很擔心啦因為我們本委委員會也有合一合第二場所在地新北市的立法委員啦葉願志委員、何孟楷委員都是新北市的立法委員"},{"start":10733.718,"end":10737.301,"text":"合一合二場要繼續研議現在光是一個現有的乾式儲存場都還在卡關因為我們核廢料都不知道怎麼處理了你再研議下去只會堆更多的核廢料我們需要在新北再蓋新的乾式儲存場"},{"start":10754.406,"end":10757.167,"text":"這個我希望這個國會頻道民眾都在看說大家要來看清楚你們選區的立法委員新北市的立委在立法院裡面現在如果支持羅志強委員提案版本也就是說他支持未來合一合二場都可以再來申請換照演繹喔"},{"start":10775.22,"end":10782.906,"text":"這個是不是這樣的事實?那再來要討論的是,主委我非常關心的,因為我們現在的核電廠,最早核一廠1978年蓋的,最晚的核三廠1985年都在我出生之前就蓋了。那當時我們是我國還沒有環評法規,環評法是在1994年才通過的。"},{"start":10794.975,"end":10799.837,"text":"按照我們現在當代的觀念我們連蓋一座公園都要進行環評了為什麼這都有太多安全的問題也就是說台灣現行的三座核電廠有沒有哪一座有做過環評的評估沒有現行的核電廠通通沒有做過環評的評估"},{"start":10814.517,"end":10817.18,"text":"我們連蓋個公園都要環評評估蓋個核電廠難道不用嗎?其實我認為我們現在民進黨政府都是有愧於民眾的因為很多民眾可能都還不知道說原來這個核電廠根本當年沒做過環評的評估所以如果現在由立委要修法來討論核電廠還要演繹"},{"start":10835.851,"end":10840.414,"text":"我們現在法規要不要同步來處理呢我們現在現行的法規因為後來已經徵修過核管法如果現在要蓋一座新的核電廠要不要進行環評需要是需要的嘛但是如果他們現在國民黨委員提案的版本三座沒有做過環評而且都運作40年的老舊核電廠要繼續研議也許在下一個40年按照現在的法律要做環評嗎"},{"start":10863.305,"end":10865.827,"text":"現在我們台灣你去問哪一個民眾可以接受蓋核電廠不需要做環評通通不能接受"},{"start":10878.897,"end":10884.182,"text":"何況你演繹要等同於當作新核電廠來試值我強力的這樣主張絕對要再進行環評才可以再進行評估再來是最後我要請教主委是我們今天討論的因為關於核電現在有一些核融合新型核電小型核電廠的一些討論"},{"start":10898.855,"end":10921.132,"text":"有不同的意見這也是很多擁核者他們提出來的論述我個人對於這個新型核電因為都還沒有運轉過我還是抱持高度的疑慮但我還是想要釐清清楚今天我們在這裡討論的是針對國民黨提案五個版本核管法第六條修法的討論核管法第六條有沒有去管理到新型的核電廠"},{"start":10923.157,"end":10927.403,"text":"是沒有的,核管法在處理的就是針對老舊核電廠這一個修法就是要對老舊核電廠做一個後門的放寬"},{"start":10933.638,"end":10951.995,"text":"所以新式核電的這個支持者我認為我雖然個人高度疑慮但認為可以討論可是要講清楚的是今天的這個修法完全跟新式的核能沒有關係今天的這個修法第六條的版本通通這個國民黨立委提案版本當中在處理的就只有已經運轉40年的老舊核電廠"},{"start":10956.96,"end":10959.021,"text":"那這個安全的問題是最重要第二個核廢料沒有處理沒有資格來討論核電廠的演繹任何人只要支持今天提案的版本剛剛我們已經確認了他有可能會涉及到核一、核二廠的演繹喔"},{"start":10972.145,"end":10989.258,"text":"那就是你們要支持在屏東有更多的核廢料嗎?你們要支持在新北市有更多的核廢料嗎?要討論法案不要在空中談台灣現在這一條法在處理的就是現行的核電廠它有所在地所以我認為要務實來評估 謝謝好 謝謝兩位接下來本席宣布我們今天的提案在整個委員會質詢完畢之後再來處理接下來我們請王鴻薇委員"},{"start":11008.362,"end":11023.794,"text":"謝謝主席我請我們核安會的陳主委還有我們經濟部連次長今天是次長來我們台電的董事長董事長、次長還有我們主委謝謝"},{"start":11027.216,"end":11047.183,"text":"王委員好主委你們今天的報告第一開宗明義就是說有關核電演繹的事情要有社會共識經濟部的報告也是要有社會共識那麼你們對於所謂的社會共識的定義是什麼"},{"start":11052.062,"end":11065.37,"text":"沒有定義,你們的報告不是亂寫嗎?我想至少需要大院委員意見可以整合。所以重點,你們這不就是廢話嗎?就是說,立法院有沒有同意這個核電研議的相關條例?那我剛才在做這個提案說明的時候,"},{"start":11076.957,"end":11094.405,"text":"也特別提出來就最新的這個民調美麗島電子報的民調那麼對於立法院有沒有必要修法延長核電廠的使用期限事實上是高達64.1%那所以我們一再講所謂的社會共識社會共識如果其實一個民調現在大家知道其實這個現在的社會的意見是相當多元的"},{"start":11104.81,"end":11130.718,"text":"如果這樣子還不代表社會共識那麼到底要怎麼樣才算是社會共識那另外呢我剛才也有注意到我們有一些我們黨籍民進黨籍的這個立委的反對我覺得本來很多事情大家有贊成有反對但是有些說法我覺得簡直是非常我覺得已經幾乎到笑掉人家大牙了啦"},{"start":11133.119,"end":11148.469,"text":"今天是戰鬥藍的立委提出來的議案這是國會擴權這不是很好笑嗎?如果按照這個民調是百分之六四的民眾都是戰鬥藍呢?所以今天我們針對一個這樣重大的民生經濟專業的法案"},{"start":11153.712,"end":11158.794,"text":"不要講這種政治的話語所以同樣的我也希望我們各單位能夠本於自己的職權你在講說我說社會共識你們講了好久的社會共識結果定義竟然是說你們要不要通過我們現在就在處理這個事情另外大家一直提到的特別核電廠附近的居民那麼最近因為你們要準備啟動已經啟動了核三廠的廚藝"},{"start":11183.163,"end":11186.665,"text":"所以可以看到周邊鄉鎮的心聲我今天早上也特別提到恆春鎮長他說核三研議是在地人的希望然後四個鄉鎮通通要挺研議"},{"start":11198.53,"end":11213.003,"text":"所以這個部分是不是一個代表一個民意包含現在的核二廠比如我們現在其實主要的討論是在於核三廠因為核三廠還在運作而且你的核燃料棒其實都還沒有滿嘛"},{"start":11214.344,"end":11214.745,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":11230.723,"end":11236.947,"text":"昨天我們也看到反核青鳥到立法院周邊來後來有人去算大概200人過去在反核的時代動輒上萬人如果走上街頭動輒上萬人我是人我反核可是經過這幾年的洗禮經過這幾年台灣能源的不穩定經過這幾年世界各國相繼的去延長核電廠的壽命"},{"start":11261.104,"end":11266.69,"text":"大家也開始意識到特別比如說包含林遠哲院長他也講到的沒有錯核電廠他有核安的問題可是氣候邊遷有人類滅絕的問題你能說他不是專家嗎"},{"start":11278.203,"end":11281.145,"text":"你能說他是戰鬥籃嗎?你能說他是國民黨的代言人嗎?所以我們現在在討論這一些議題的時候請回到專業問題好 我們來問一下台電董事長童子賢估計因為我們要發展AI產業他說未來的用電量他事實上增加未來用電增加上看300億度"},{"start":11307.057,"end":11309.919,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具 «核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草"},{"start":11336.189,"end":11360.393,"text":"第一核二核三廠加起來才會有300億度核三廠不會有300億度第二經營部現在做的評估8年的用電成長量高過300億度未來8年高過300億度所以你們的用電量其實還高於童子賢所預估的量我們估計的是更高對不對所以你們講那個3%是錯誤的甚至3%的量就會比300億度大"},{"start":11366.822,"end":11381.747,"text":"所以你們現在全部制高於300億度是多少億度呢我這樣跟委員報告就是部長有提到我們會出電力工序報告電力工序報告會來一下你們不是說7月中嗎提出來了嗎正在正在什麼時候提出呢這個是經濟部會來提什麼時候因為當時有講啊你們台電送給經濟部了嗎這個不是台電送的"},{"start":11392.622,"end":11392.762,"text":"案案案案"},{"start":11422.422,"end":11423.564,"text":"謝謝主席 核安會主委有請"},{"start":11430.768,"end":11459.437,"text":"主委今天大家都在討論核電演繹的問題大概兩個層面一個叫做民意的變化第二個叫做國際的趨勢民意的變化我想剛剛王鴻薇委員講得非常清楚超過63%到64%左右的人民基本上是贊成用開放的態度來務實的處理核電演繹的問題過去曾經有一段時間確實反核聲音是非常大甚至都講出了我是人我反核我請問核安會主委現在如果60幾%的人希望核電演繹請問他們不是人嗎"},{"start":11462.604,"end":11487.415,"text":"當然是人啦是嘛 對不對所以民意本來就是變化的所以換言之我們作為政治人物決定國家的政策當然要跟民意為依歸啊所以不要去講說這是這不應該是藍綠惡鬥的問題應該是務實面對國家挑戰的問題喔第二個我要講國際趨勢喔這個本期今天早上來出席在龜山我的選區一個算力中心的一個開幕典禮這個我本來要在那個地方待到典禮完成還要上去致詞"},{"start":11488.095,"end":11503.5,"text":"但是後來看時間實在來不及我只好提早離開為什麼呢因為我在下面跟他們聊天的時候他們的人直接講報告委員今天很高興你來但是我們這個算力中心順利運作我們缺電這個算力中心背後是美商在投資他說連美國人都覺得很疑惑為什麼"},{"start":11505.34,"end":11521.566,"text":"為什麼當全世界需要AI發展AI發展電動車等等產業的時候台灣的能源政策如此僵化為什麼不務實地使用核能我聽到他們這樣講我就決定好吧我覺得今天的質詢好像還是比較重要所以我就提早離開了我們今天就舉幾個國際的例子來做一下討論先舉韓國的例子韓國總統尹錫悅2022年就任之後基本上就開始了大核電時代這個"},{"start":11529.289,"end":11550.45,"text":"以他的這個能源戰略來看2018年的時候核電佔比23.4%煤41.9天然氣26.8韓國再生源恐怕沒有我們走得快也沒有我們走得早但是淨零碳排是全世界共通面對的趨勢所以他們在2036年預計核電佔比提升到34%煤炭大幅下降到19%天然氣22%微幅下降"},{"start":11554.253,"end":11571.652,"text":"當然也要把再生能源的空間撐出來所以有30%的再生能源其實這樣子的一個能源戰略路徑其實就標準叫以核養綠務實減碳他為了把30%的再生能源的量擠出來他不得不依賴現有的核電甚至合理的來增加其實這不只是韓國嘛日本的核電廠研議了沒"},{"start":11572.293,"end":11575.334,"text":"韓國政府為什麼要決定把核電的占比再往上提高?第一蓋新機組的花費時間遠遠超過舊機組研議"},{"start":11591.118,"end":11614.78,"text":"最後我們郭智慧部長也講了嘛至少6年而且還不記錄人民反對這樣子的一個變化的因素第二韓國如果發展AI產業資訊中心就是我剛講的算力中心還有電動車相關的產業不管怎麼樣電力需求必然大增第三如果不使用核電必然要使用天然氣發電但天然氣的成本昂貴而且運輸是另外隱形的成本"},{"start":11615.501,"end":11633.711,"text":"台灣跟韓國在產業上有若干的相似跟競爭之處,AI產業我們難道不跟他們競爭嗎?一定要拼的嘛,對不對?總不能輸掉下一個20年,下一個30年。我們也都想發展高比例的再生能源,他們有風場,我們也有風場。他們的土地面積還比我們大一些,發展太陽能也很有潛力。但即便是這樣子,他們也沒有捨棄核電不是嗎?"},{"start":11634.531,"end":11649.121,"text":"那我們今天如果故不知風非常僵化不是非常奇怪的事嗎?剛剛有很多人講40年的老舊機組好可怕好像會吃人的一樣請問主委這個美國總共有幾個核電反應爐?大概90幾座94座對不對?他們都運轉幾年了?超過40年大概有50幾座57座超過40年"},{"start":11659.878,"end":11668.723,"text":"已經有50幾座,超過40年對不對?我跟你講總共有85顆啊,達到40年的運轉期限之後,申請再研議,再研議幾年?再研議20年對不對?所以說94顆裡面有85顆啊,40年運轉期滿之後可以再搞20年啊,並且已經有61顆其實已經超過40年的運轉期限了,這叫國際趨勢啊。我們為什麼要對於科技,我們為什麼要對於技術那麼沒有信心呢?"},{"start":11686.172,"end":11712.451,"text":"我想全世界大概沒有幾個國家像台灣一樣還主動立法阻斷務實可用的發電工具啊我們不反對核安會秉持你的本位好好的嚴審把關這沒有問題嘛大家都不會反對不是嗎可是用一個法令自解自廢武功自己把手腳打斷然後說我們要迎向未來AI產業挑戰迎向未來淨零碳排的趨勢我覺得是笑話一則我希望政府在今天修法的時候可以用務實而且長遠的觀點來看待這件事情以上謝謝"},{"start":11718.623,"end":11722.225,"text":"好,謝謝您委員,謝謝主委接下來請洪森翰委員主席喔,好我想請陳主委、田次長跟曾董事長好,我們請三位,謝謝"},{"start":11749.206,"end":11755.287,"text":"案。」議員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":11772.571,"end":11795.46,"text":"第二類活動斷層。」第二類活動斷層。那我請問一下當初河山廠在建廠的時候知道下面有活動斷層嗎?這個應該是新的市政啦。也就是說當初河山廠在建廠的時候是不知道它的正下方有一條活動斷層的嗎?那什麼時候才知道下面有一條活動斷層?"},{"start":11797.415,"end":11799.977,"text":"二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具 «核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":11822.826,"end":11848.902,"text":"剛剛有好幾位在黨的委員提到國外有一些嚴厲的案例但我相信這些核電廠的下方沒有一條活動斷層通過這個核電廠的正下方今天不管政治上面我們怎麼吵但這一條通過核電廠正下方的活動斷層就是擺在眼前的事實"},{"start":11850.97,"end":11870.969,"text":"所以我說如果現在在野黨要來討論核三的演繹的話我認為比較負責任的應該是要多去討論那到底怎麼面對這個斷層到底安全的評估如何但對不起我們其實在今天委員會的討論裡面我們幾乎看不到在野黨對於這一條斷層所帶來的安全風險的問題有任何嚴肅的討論"},{"start":11876.482,"end":11889.953,"text":"我們感覺很像要在沒有對這個斷層的風險做出討論之前就要急急忙忙的來放寬核安管制的法規這讓人覺得非常非常的不安啊今天我們主席、柯委員他也可能立志他要選高雄我相信啊大家看到現在這一檔這種匆匆忙忙"},{"start":11906.411,"end":11923.643,"text":"然後沒有討論核能安全的問題就想要急著出委會急著想要修法的態度我不知道高雄人接不接受我不知道南部人接不接受所以今天我很明確今天不管你是哪一黨派的不管你的立場為何這個電廠下面活動斷層經過"},{"start":11930.203,"end":11942.334,"text":"橫村斷層是南部最大的活動斷層這件事情就擺在眼前嘛那怎麼面對嘛怎麼處理嘛為什麼其他的核電廠下面都沒有斷層只有這條有斷層為什麼說過了嘛因為之前不知道嘛不知道才會在這一個相對風險高相對不安全的地方來蓋核電廠嘛"},{"start":11956.223,"end":11975.663,"text":"那我們現在再有一次機會我們要不要繼續在這一個斷層上面活動斷層上的核電廠繼續承擔這個風險這是我們要做決定的事情嘛我要提一個其實地震帶上的核電廠的安全最近有個案例可以參考今年的1月能登半島一樣發生規模7的地震"},{"start":11979.212,"end":12004.883,"text":"南南半島附近也有六座核電廠那在三一福島核災後其實日本針對核災發生後的疏散計畫其實做了蠻多嚴密的加強跟改進但在這一次南南半島的事件裡面其實媒體都有報導大家發現了幾件事情一樣如果戶外是有輻射的但政府規定要待在家裡躲輻射但對不起防射都倒了請問要躲在哪裡"},{"start":12006.462,"end":12016.269,"text":"沒有避難的地方。」第二個,復興的居民都要疏散但道路中斷連疏散都沒有辦法連輻射的側站對不起"},{"start":12017.489,"end":12039.46,"text":"都被正道訊號中斷。」所以你根本搞不清楚到底輻射的熱點在哪裡,也包括整個通訊是中斷的。所以當今天遇到地震的時候的複合性的災難,很多地方都跟原本設想的是不一樣的。這樣子的疏散的情境,這樣子的核災的情境,我們是可以透過現在的例子裡面來做參考的。但很抱歉啊,"},{"start":12040.16,"end":12058.531,"text":"我們今天在這個委員會裡面有沒有任何一個人嚴肅討論這些實際上面已經發生的災害的狀況我們怎麼面對沒有在這些沒有討論的狀況之下就要匆匆忙忙來放寬核安管制的法規如果未來這些狀況發生誰要負責誰要負責如果這個風險的狀況發生如果這個災害的狀況發生誰要負責我要問主委你能負責嗎"},{"start":12071.36,"end":12075.241,"text":"這就是一個在地震帶上的核電廠發生狀況以後所遇到的諸多"},{"start":12092.759,"end":12119.908,"text":"你無法想像的困境逃逃不出去連車站輻射值都不知道通訊也中斷根本不知道怎麼避難但我們居然要在這樣的情境下面就要來放寬核能管制的法規我真的要奉勸大家我覺得核電的政策可以討論但核安的議題我相信就算支持核電的人也不希望台灣發生核災也不希望台灣受到核災的威脅"},{"start":12121.544,"end":12138.561,"text":"可是現在在立法院裡面討論的這種方式我們其實針對像這個具體發生的問題我們得不到答案啊在沒有答案之前就要鬆綁和安法規我真的要奉勸大家不應該這樣做"},{"start":12141.772,"end":12164.256,"text":"如果到時候發生了沒有人可以負責沒有人可以被究責這是我們最擔心的事情我們希望等一下我們的審議可以審慎可以把真的核安的問題、核非法的問題做一個綜合的討論以後今天我們要修的不是能源法規今天在野黨要修的是核能安全法規是要放鬆放寬核能安全法規我希望主委要秉持專業的立場從專業來說話謝謝"},{"start":12171.151,"end":12175.074,"text":"好謝謝請各位回座接下來是鄭天才委員好主席各位委員有請主委好我們請主委謝謝"},{"start":12200.546,"end":12226.613,"text":"正委員好主委好完全正確這個重責大任就在你主委的身上和安會的身上包括台電負責這個核電廠的人身上專業我們絕對要專業今天這個法例如果修正通過"},{"start":12228.553,"end":12255.54,"text":"是不是馬上就研議還是要經過台電的審慎評估各種專業加上你的專業的合同意才可以研議對不對好就是要專業我們就是要專業我們看這個核子反應器設施管制辦法第六條最長40年好最長40年對不對"},{"start":12257.165,"end":12285.774,"text":"我們現在核一、核二、核三都幾年了?核三將近四十年,核一、核二都超過四十年了。對不對?剛才講的,尤其是洪森剛才講的,都知道啊,都已經知道了,地層袋啦,都知道了,對不對?也都知道核廢料沒地方放啊,也都知道了,對不對?你後面的這個都有寫啊,禁滿存、禁滿儲,"},{"start":12287.116,"end":12293.742,"text":"沒地方放啊所以你今天的報告啊你今天的報告"},{"start":12295.27,"end":12322.815,"text":"你的結論是什麼?目前國內大眾對於核電廠研議仍存有不同意見,特別是針對核能安全、核廢料處理、社會共識等議題,稀審慎、評估、充分導入溝通。核安會作為我國獨立的核能安全管制機關,與國際核能先進國家的管制機關一樣,本以職責與專業,為民眾把關並從核能安全管制實務觀點。"},{"start":12324.195,"end":12346.899,"text":"提供專業意見。」前面這句話就核安會來講前面這段不用寫你只能寫你這後面這段你要本以獨立的核能安全管制機關與國際核能先進國家的管制機關一樣本以職責與專業來把關"},{"start":12352.659,"end":12363.543,"text":"今天很清楚的,現在不是說這個核一、核二、核三,都知道,都已經40年了,有的快近40年了,有的超過40年了。對不對?到底還能不能用?還可不可以研議?這個法,今天的修法,不管有沒有修,"},{"start":12377.281,"end":12378.622,"text":"正委員我跟你報告齁"},{"start":12408.086,"end":12430.403,"text":"可不可以言必須台電就相關的核能記錄我剛才聽過主委我剛才聽過你的說法了是台電要先去檢視檢視然後再送到你這邊然後他如果認為某些的元件需要更換他必須去確保這個安全性然後提出一個報告"},{"start":12431.184,"end":12455.191,"text":"那這個報告我們有相關的法規,主要是老化、整體性老化評估、老化管理、實現老化分析、運轉執照、徵修條例等等。它大概有多少呢?目錄,光目錄兩面大概就有六頁,整個報告大概是這麼多。台電如果沒有去檢視,就像我們人身體健康如果沒去檢查,"},{"start":12456.391,"end":12456.691,"text":"案案案案案案案"},{"start":12479.734,"end":12486.399,"text":"委員會等22人擬具〈核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案〉案。然後要請了童子賢要當副召集人。然後要請了李燕澤當顧問。不管怎麼樣,倒是要回到你的專業,跟台電負責核電廠的專業。可還是不可?因為它已經40年了。都應該知道不是現在才要去檢核啦,而不是這個法通過之後再去評估,再去"},{"start":12507.081,"end":12507.101,"text":"案 。"},{"start":12534.4,"end":12557.138,"text":"原住民最重視的包括這個核廢料的儲存可不可以在現有的地方再開再儲存還有沒有空間當然因為你要弄到哪裡不可能啦我們也不會接受啦你要弄到哪裡大家都不會接受啦所以唯一的途徑對不對"},{"start":12559.697,"end":12566.204,"text":"現在屏東的他們希望能夠繼續研議啊對不對那你問他們可不可以在這邊蓋這個儲存場因為沒有啦沒有啦要不要可不可以蓋啊這個都要雙管齊下對不對"},{"start":12581.982,"end":12597.651,"text":"我的報告第六頁他有畫底線的地方其實我有說明其實我們重要的部分其實都有underline那跟委員說明請委員了解重點他已經40年了現在就要去做好處理"},{"start":12599.619,"end":12610.843,"text":"好謝謝接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員羅志強委員"},{"start":12627.679,"end":12635.403,"text":"請那個河安會主委還有我們的經濟部連次長跟台電曾董事長。好,我想先請主委,請問民進黨我們現在的政府2025非核家園轉彎了沒有?"},{"start":12652.469,"end":12679.699,"text":"明年會不會落實非核家園?把所有核能幹光?會不會?明年?目前核三廠今年7月27日停止運轉。明年5月17日二號機停止運轉。所以非核的這條船還是往前勇敢的開下去就對了?沒錯吧?我們想請教我們次長,經濟部次長。一樣嘛,非核家園沒有改變嘛,對不對?我們台電董事長。"},{"start":12682.084,"end":12701.134,"text":"那我想請教一下我們的主委我想今天應該很多人問過你核電有缺點但跟全人類滅絕無法相比減碳要到位不然人類會跟恐龍一樣滅絕主委你認同嗎"},{"start":12702.703,"end":12715.627,"text":"我可以理解我可以理解我告訴你不只要理解核安會主要是負責核能安全沒有關係你可以理解我告訴你這句話你也知道誰講的李遠哲講的市長這句話你認同嗎可以理解不錯請問標準答案來董事長你也是理解嘛對不對所有的能源使用都有4D性問題嗯"},{"start":12732.114,"end":12753.322,"text":"不錯啊 你的回答比另外兩個所以今天你是指我們的李遠哲我們的這個氣候委員會的顧問不是實地啦不是所謂地域性問題沒關係我還想請教你下一個問題啦請教你下一個問題事實上李遠哲的這一段話提出警訊"},{"start":12755.899,"end":12776.99,"text":"台灣我們作為地球公民的一份子我們一直在討論所謂能源缺不缺電的問題其實不只是缺不缺電的問題請問減碳重不重要 董事長減碳當然是重要的一個題目那請問我們的主委減碳重不重要重要今天李遠哲關切的是非常高度高層次的問題"},{"start":12778.493,"end":12802.511,"text":"那我要跟三位尤其我們台電董事長我想你應該知道這類似的觀點十年前馬總統就說過了嘛 對不對非核優於減碳啦因為減碳這個所謂氣候變遷可能是造成人類的一個重大的危機所以台灣也有個公民的義務要能夠加入所謂的對抗氣候變遷的這樣的一個公民的全球公民的行列嘛 對不對"},{"start":12803.601,"end":12820.99,"text":"所以馬總統其實已經是先知先覺了。我們要面對現在環境變遷的問題,這確實是個價值。沒錯啊,謝謝您。那現在有下一個問題問了,其實說真的我搞得我很亂啦。今天氣候變遷對社委會設在哪裡啊?設在哪裡?你講的是總統府要設的那個氣候變遷委員會?對啊,總統府啊,召集人是誰?"},{"start":12832.722,"end":12832.982,"text":"總統副召集人"},{"start":12846.226,"end":12872.717,"text":"的氣候變遷委員會除了總統以外召集人以外兩個副召集人童子賢已經是跟你已經尊尊的已經是哀求啦希望民進黨政府好好想想何能繼續飛河下去對台灣的所謂的一個威脅跟危害現在連你們氣候變遷委員會顧問他不只是顧問喔他是民進黨過去的神主牌李遠哲都出來講話了結果你這條恐龍之船還不轉彎"},{"start":12874.687,"end":12899.755,"text":"我真的是說真的還是要有這些高度啦今天在野黨說真的是為了國家好所以提出今天研議的這個法案是希望給今天台灣留一條路我也希望今天我們的行政官員可以秉持像李遠哲、童子賢這種所謂的我們講這個所謂的人類是否滅絕的一個高度的心啊"},{"start":12900.875,"end":12904.617,"text":"來看看我們過去檢討我們錯誤的能源政策。以上。好,謝謝。接下來是吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員、黃建豪委員、黃建豪委員、黃建豪委員、洪孟凱委員、洪孟凱委員、洪孟凱委員、"},{"start":12927.386,"end":12939.191,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草"},{"start":13071.144,"end":13091.004,"text":"三、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正"},{"start":13101.345,"end":13105.689,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":13128.573,"end":13128.593,"text":"案。"},{"start":13159.508,"end":13165.37,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案件案件案件案件案件"},{"start":13185.623,"end":13205.638,"text":"案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13219.554,"end":13219.574,"text":"案。"},{"start":13253.37,"end":13253.39,"text":"案。"},{"start":13298.245,"end":13323.054,"text":"案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13415.851,"end":13416.524,"text":"同理呀 同理呀"},{"start":13547.039,"end":13547.059,"text":"劉沛"},{"start":13549.177,"end":13563.287,"text":"關於今天的會議我們做如下的決定對於委員會質詢要求提供相關的資料或是為其答覆的部分我們請相關金官尽數以書面來做答覆那本期經過討論協商完之後認為這樣子的一個法案我們需要有更多的一個討論以讓這個法案能夠更趨的一個完整所以有關於核子反應器設施管制法我們另第其進行審查報告委員會今天的議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":13578.957,"end":13584.598,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":13610.312,"end":13610.332,"text":"案。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}