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你覺得"},{"start":142.366,"end":162.84,"text":"看他的航線吧看航線我們往下看台灣的航運能力我們前貨運的十二大航商台灣佔了三名我們的運力快了市佔率在全球快了一成所以這個船隊是不是規模很龐大很龐大嘛但是他在哪裡加油呢我可以賣個關子往下看"},{"start":163.895,"end":188.759,"text":"現在為了降低碳排應用而生的氫能產業你覺得在台灣他除了發電工業製造還有運輸哪一方面需求最迫切我們往下看我再給你看一下台灣要降低碳排所以我們的氫能未來要供應給發電供應給製造供應給運輸運輸又有陸海空你覺得哪一個占比最高哪個需求最迫切"},{"start":190.917,"end":215.82,"text":"這個都在未來吧 現在氫能沒有那麼大氫能沒有那麼大 是我們要降低碳排那你覺得現在世界各國都在研究氫能怎麼樣來降低碳排要看成本了 報告委員我想這件事情喔 替代的能源是這樣就是方法有很多但是就商業的考量來講我們還是要考慮那個成本是 除了看成本之外 成本會用什麼來做碳稅就是一種成本 我們往下看其實呢 在運輸的領域當中"},{"start":217.741,"end":246.198,"text":"陸海空啊現在對氫能需求最陰氣的是航運我們往下看喔IMO是國際海事組織它已經規定了為了降低溫室氣體排放在2028年開始如果你的船舶用有沒有用低碳燃料可以用課100美金到380美金的額外的碳稅所以部長你說對了嘛是不是價格出來了如果你不使用低碳燃料你就會被課碳稅嘛同意嘛齁所以你覺得航運是不是很迫切需要使用低碳燃料"},{"start":249.831,"end":274.317,"text":"所以低碳燃料目前對我們航運的衝擊是什麼長榮他去年買了24艘假存的雙燃料未來他會再訂11艘24000噸的LNG的雙燃料連萬海都要用生質燃油導入那剛剛講了航運就都看很遠一艘船訂下去要用二三十年雖然是未來的事情現在就開始做準備是不是應該要這樣做企業家是不是要這樣做"},{"start":275.444,"end":299.664,"text":"是嗎 好 往下看但是剛剛揭曉了 我們關谷的陽明海運呢它到哪裡去加低碳燃料 到韓國啊 您說的沒有錯輕對台灣來講 它是一個進口的 價格也比較貴所以我們的船隊 自家船隊要用的油 低碳燃料到別的國家去加台灣有沒有加住生質燃油的能力 署長有沒有"},{"start":301.107,"end":316.54,"text":"台灣可以生產生殖奶油有這個生產的能力但是目前我們像現在那個玉米玉米都可以來做生殖奶油但是目前有沒有供應給我們傳播用呢因為市場太小我們台灣這個市場"},{"start":319.042,"end":342.628,"text":"市場能不能講現在全世界的航運公司2028年要面對100到380美金對一個大的製造廠來講我講的不是工業製造我講的是船舶燃料往下看所以未來為了滿足IMO的溫體的排放所以台灣要思考有沒有可能幫這個船隊經過台灣海峽的船隊佔五分之一的世界航運量"},{"start":343.43,"end":351.911,"text":"我們國家的船隊佔十分之一的航運量這些船舶有沒有可能在台灣加注低碳燃料這是不是一個市場部長你認為這是不是一個市場"},{"start":354.031,"end":381.588,"text":"就我商業的看法啦就是通過台灣海峽來台灣加油的這個機率不高因為他要加低碳燃料嘛所以我的意思就是說其實我們高雄港來高雄港然後來轉運高雄港變成一個大型的轉運中心的時候那在這個地方加油這才有機會啦是的 沒有錯所以您說的沒有錯如果是在這邊有吞吐他跟新加坡的馬六甲海峽有吞吐的時候他會同時加注燃料"},{"start":382.108,"end":409.58,"text":"主要說的是說其實在我們思考輕能產業的時候不要只有經濟部思考說用來替代我們的LNG的火力發電的燃料要思考到說舉例講啦有人說不要為了喝一杯牛奶去養一頭牛對不對但是如果你家有個小牧場你可以跟大牧場批很多原乳來加工成鮮乳賣給全社區的人所以台灣有沒有綠能 有嘛"},{"start":410.472,"end":433.024,"text":"有沒有風電 有嘛 有沒有光電 有嘛 但是錢價就不夠啊 這些電呢直接供應電力供應都來不及了有沒有可能去煉傳播燃料 不可能但是我們如果有這個技術 我們可以進國外類似原料的氫原料煉製成傳播要用的低碳多元燃料 你覺得有沒有可能這樣做"},{"start":434.233,"end":460.686,"text":"這都有可能啦商業模式都可以發展是的所以就是因為是未來的模式所以拜託您發展往下看最後結論因為我國的港區跟我國的船隊規模有提供多元低碳燃料家族的業務所以請經濟部研究一下國營事業包括台灣中油有沒有帶動民間產業煉製及供應港區多元低碳燃料的可能性可不可以去請能源署評估一下是我們可以評估那我當然我昨天也問過交通部長了"},{"start":461.306,"end":488.72,"text":"未來如果要對我們的港區的船舶提供多元低碳燃料也要專用的管路跟儲槽這個就是交通部的事情了所以最後我要請經濟部還有能源署跟台電和中油本席將會召開公聽會我會請交通部跟經濟部共同來研究氫能產業除了在台灣除了經濟部取代陸運的汽車用汽油氫能代替汽油用這個"},{"start":490.388,"end":502.894,"text":"輕能代替LNG的發電之外有沒有可能鎖定船舶燃料這個檜面來把台灣打造成一個類似新加坡為我們國際航運的船舶加注多元低碳燃料的可能性"},{"start":503.638,"end":525.858,"text":"署長你要不要補充一下我們來研究啦我要跟委員報告所有的事情其實最後還是成本來做決定是的所以就是碳定價的問題如果說今天我們經濟部有辦法評估2030或2035年我們可以提供一個什麼樣的低碳燃料的定價那交通部就會告訴你"},{"start":526.628,"end":542.811,"text":"這樣的定價的低碳燃料我的船舶需要多少的量你就可以去規劃產生這樣的低碳燃料的一個限制規模交通部也可以去規劃供應這樣的低碳燃料給船舶的一個港部設施這樣的一個建議你會不會去評估我們來評估啦好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":598,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時58分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長和官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士和先生。有請經濟部郭部長和能源署的李署長。"],["主席：郭部長、李署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、署長好。我們來看第一頁，部長，您是一個企業家，來自商業界，商業上解決自己的問題和解決別人的問題最大的差別在哪裡？你直覺的反應，在商業上，你還在想？我們直接看看這個答案對不對，你要給我點評一下，這個答案就是解決自己的問題要花錢、解決別人的問題可以賺錢，您同意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那這個誰很會做？新加坡跟臺灣都很會，對不對？新加坡跟臺灣都不產石油，結果我們都有很大規模的石化業，您覺得新加坡跟臺灣比起來誰的規模比較大？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我不清楚，但是署長說新加坡比較大。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，新加坡，這很特別嘛，那它現在供應給誰呢？我們來看一下，新加坡是世界三大煉油中心之一，新加坡除了金融業跟觀光業之外，它的航運業幫它賺最多錢，因為它周邊有產油的馬來西亞跟印尼，它透過填海造陸設置大量的煉油廠，最重要是什麼？麻六甲海峽，世界上所有的油輪都要從那邊經過，是不是這樣？","那往下看。新加坡的燃料，它是供應給船舶用，它的石化業，那你覺得臺灣的石化業是用來做什麼的？"],["郭部長智輝：做下游產品。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，而且我們不是自己用，我們還出口對不對？新加坡自己的船隊，它在全世界只有占一點點、1.3%，它煉那麼多的油都是給路過的船舶使用，賺人家的錢。臺灣的石化業進口那麼多的原油，做出來的石化材料也不是自己用而已，賣給別人也是賺別人的錢，您同意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以新加坡及臺灣都有航運船隊，剛剛我說了嘛！新加坡的船隊當然在自己那邊加油，臺灣的船隊你覺得會在哪裡加油？"],["郭部長智輝：看它的航線吧！"],["鍾委員佳濱：臺灣的航運能力，貨運的12大航商臺灣占了3名，我們的運力占全球快一成的市占率，所以船隊是不是規模很龐大？很龐大嘛！但是它在哪裡加油呢？我賣個關子，往下看，現在為了降低碳排應運而生的氫能產業，你覺得在臺灣其應用除了發電及工業製造外還有運輸，哪一方面需求最迫切？我再給你看一下，臺灣要降低碳排，所以我們的氫能未來要供應給發電、製造及運輸，其中運輸又有陸、海、空，你覺得哪一個占比最高？哪個需求最迫切？"],["郭部長智輝：這個都在未來，現在氫能沒有那麼大的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我們要降低碳排，那你覺得現在世界各國都在研究氫能怎麼樣來降低碳排。"],["郭部長智輝：要看成本，報告委員，我想這些替代的能源是這樣，就是方法有很多，但是就商業的考量來講，我們還是要考慮成本。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，除了看成本之外，成本會用什麼來做？碳稅就是一種成本，其實在運輸的領域當中，陸、海、空現在對氫能需求最殷切的是航運，IMO是國際海事組織，它已經規定為了降低溫室氣體排放，在2028年開始，如果船舶用油沒有用低碳燃料，可以課100美金到380美金的額外碳稅，所以部長你說對了，是不是價格出來了？如果你不使用低碳燃料就會被課碳稅，同意嘛！所以你覺得航運是不是很迫切需要使用低碳燃料？"],["郭部長智輝：是，當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以低碳燃料目前對航運業的衝擊是什麼？長榮去年買了24艘甲醇雙燃料貨櫃輪，未來還會再訂11艘2萬4,000噸LNG雙燃料貨櫃輪，連萬海都要導入使用生質燃油，剛剛講了，航運界都看很遠，一艘船訂下去要用二、三十年，雖然是未來的事情，現在就開始做準備，是不是應該要這樣做？企業家是不是要這樣做？是嘛！但是剛剛揭曉了，我們官股的陽明海運到哪裡去加低碳燃料？到韓國啊！您說得沒有錯，氫對臺灣來講，它是進口的，價格也比較貴，所以我們自家船隊要用的油，低碳燃料要到別的國家去加，臺灣有沒有加注生質燃油的能力？署長，有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣可以生產生質燃油。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有這個生產的能力，好，但是目前……"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在像玉米都可以來做生質燃油。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，但是目前有沒有供應給我們船舶用呢？還沒有嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣的市場太小，我們臺灣這個市場……"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我會嚇一跳！市場怎麼會太小？現在全世界的航運公司2028年要面對100到380美金……"],["郭部長智輝：對一個大的製造廠來講……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我講的不是工業製造，我講的是船舶燃料，所以未來為了滿足IMO溫體排放，所以臺灣要思考有沒有可能幫經過臺灣海峽的船隊，占五分之一的世界航運量，我們國家的船隊占十分之一的航運量，這些船舶有沒有可能在臺灣加注低碳燃料，這是不是一個市場？部長，你認為這是不是一個市場？"],["郭部長智輝：就我商業的看法，通過臺灣海峽來臺灣加油的機率不高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為它要加低碳燃料嘛！臺灣目前沒有能力生產。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我的意思就是說，其實我們高雄港，來高雄港轉運，當高雄港變成一個大型的轉運中心的時候，在這個地方加油至少還有機會啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，沒有錯！所以您說的沒有錯，如果是在這邊有吞吐，它跟新加坡的麻六甲一樣有吞吐的時候，它會同時加注燃料。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要說的是，其實在我們思考氫能產業的時候，不要只有經濟部思考用來替代LNG的火力發電燃料，舉例講，有人說不要為了喝一杯牛奶去養一頭牛，對不對？但是如果你家有個小牧場，你可以跟大牧場批很多原乳來加工成鮮乳賣給全社區的人，所以臺灣有沒有綠能？有嘛！有沒有風電？有嘛！有沒有光電？有嘛！但是生吃就不夠了，這些電直接供應電力都來不及了，有沒有可能去煉船舶燃料？不可能！但是我們如果有這個技術，我們可以進國外類似原料的氫原料煉製成船舶要用的多元低碳燃料，你覺得有沒有可能這樣做？"],["郭部長智輝：這都有可能，商業模式都可以發展。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以就是因為是未來的模式，所以要拜託您發展。","最後結論，因為我國港區跟我國船隊規模，而能提供多元低碳燃料加注業務，所以請經濟部研究國營事業，包括台灣中油有沒有帶動民間產業煉製及供應港區多元低碳燃料的可能性，可不可以請能源署評估一下？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們可以評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然我昨天也問過交通部長了，未來如果要對我們港區的船舶提供多元低碳燃料，也要有專用的管路跟儲槽，這就是交通部的事情了。所以最後我要請經濟部還有能源署與台電、中油參與本席近期將召開之公聽會，我會請交通部跟經濟部共同研究氫能產業，除了在臺灣、除了經濟部，取代陸運汽車用的汽油，而能用氫能代替汽油、代替LNG的發電之外，有沒有可能鎖定船舶燃料這塊面向，來把臺灣打造成一個類似新加坡為國際航運的船舶加注多元低碳燃料的可能性。署長，你要不要再補充一下？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們來研究，我要跟委員報告，所有的事情其實最後還是成本來做決定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以就是碳定價的問題。如果今天經濟部有辦法評估2030或2035年我們可以提供一個什麼樣的低碳燃料定價，那交通部就會告訴你，這樣定價的低碳燃料船舶需要多少的量，你就可以去規劃產生這樣的低碳燃料的建置規模，交通部也可以去規劃供應這樣的低碳燃料給船舶的港埠設施，這樣的建議你會不會去評估？"],["郭部長智輝：我們來評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請楊瓊瓔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴瑞隆","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","羅廷瑋","林岱樺"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員魯明哲等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本\n院委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}