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我不知道他在訴求什麼對不起 我剛剛跟你講的時候 你在旁邊跟人家聊天啊我沒有在聊天 我沒有聊天喔 第一 你們說整潔開銷將人事資料他們所謂的人事開銷一年省了4億但是錯誤的能源政策四天燒掉9億他是台電人 他看不下去整個錯誤的能源政策讓台電面臨巨大的虧損您怎麼回應 是嗎"},{"start":193.516,"end":217.943,"text":"那你覺得台電是賺錢喔?台電賺大錢喔?那如果台電是賺大錢,現在還需要虧損嗎?你認為是他講的,這是大陣火虧損嗎?所以你認為是賺錢?沒有賠損沒有說他是賺錢,但是你認為他是虧損喔?這是他們目前講出來的數據您到現在只是要跟我在那邊鬥嘴,沒有意義啊我沒有跟你鬥嘴啊我說他現在提出的數據,您可不可以回應?"},{"start":219.52,"end":229.372,"text":"您認為呢我不知道要回應什麼他說虧錢錯誤的能源政策虧錢有很多種原因不能講這個事情是什麼能源政策他是專家嗎"},{"start":231.052,"end":244.244,"text":"他是第一線實際在台電上班的員工看不下去啊那請問一下您這樣講那您是專家嗎他看不下去那您是專家嗎不好意思他看不下去您是專家嗎對不對看不下去你講這句話我就要問你現階段你說請他離開你會不會秋後算帳"},{"start":252.191,"end":260.693,"text":"這些人為了自己的心聲為了全國百姓的聲音出來你請他離開你是不是要秋後算帳這是你講的那你為什麼要請他離開這是你講的喔你為什麼要在這個國會電台裡面講說請他離開國會電台不在講你要就事實來論述你不能夠隨便亂講啊"},{"start":273.337,"end":283.629,"text":"今天我是轉說這些團體他們的聲音你要怎麼用3.3%的人來講這件事情第二個你又在著重在1.3%你現在就是覺得他們人數少看不起他們嗎"},{"start":288.234,"end":309.679,"text":"你知道我們一年有多少營業額嗎你都不就我剛剛問的問題來回答第一我說他們的心聲是這樣你願不願意回答你一下說他是專家嗎你一下說他是1.3%的人你現階段你又在剛剛回答說那他可以離開啊所以我要問的第二個問題你現在會不會秋後算帳這些人"},{"start":310.799,"end":334.931,"text":"我為什麼要邱鶴擅長因為看起來你剛剛態度就是很強硬所以你被請他們離開啊看我的態度跟我看你的態度也都差不多吧那你怎麼可以在國會電台這邊請人家離開國會議員 郭部長我們現在不要動氣好不好是你在講的嘛我們調回剛剛的事實嘛你剛剛說他不高興他可以離開啊他當然啦 我們沒有要求他說你這個不可以離開啊"},{"start":336.687,"end":354.182,"text":"你這種態度就是漠視這些發聲的人嘛那怎麼講呢 對不對我就希望你就是事實回答他今天在經濟部的地上陳情書剛剛我也講了這些實際他們所發言的東西而且台電 他如果對台電不滿報告委員 報告委員他如果對台電不滿 他可以到台電去"},{"start":364.07,"end":372.294,"text":"經濟部是主管機關啦經濟部整個能源政策是主管機關你不要推給台電那我請教你就你說的話嘛國內約有84%的電力將轉由火力發電這是事實吧沒有錯是81%轉成84%好那我想請問一下晚上沒有太陽無風無雨那請問一下晚上火力發電會達到多少"},{"start":392.688,"end":393.851,"text":"會不會將近一百沒有太陽能啊無風無雨啊"},{"start":403.669,"end":424.219,"text":"你這個假設情況的機率非常的小好我跟你講我們還有地熱還有水力我當然知道所以我說將近一百嘛我剛剛是說將近一百我沒有跟你講說是百分百嘛你這樣講的是你不是這個意思嗎那我問你嘛晚上無風無雨或者是沒有太陽晚上一定沒有太陽吧是84%嗎是84%火力發電嗎"},{"start":429.363,"end":443.817,"text":"多少我要看數字一定會增加對不對一定會增加對不對報告委員就我們的這個資料顯示就是87%是全年的平均全年的平均"},{"start":444.946,"end":466.909,"text":"你用全年的平均來跟我回答好我們現階段要跟大家講的是台中市是最痛苦的一手拿著我們的稅金去所謂的撥補一手漲著我們的電價再來火力發電都在台中最大宗現階段燃氣機組準備要上線"},{"start":468.106,"end":493.132,"text":"你藍莓機組不願意換王美花說願意 之前願意的承諾的條件那請問一下郭部長 換到你王美花說的還算不算數藍棲機組換藍莓機組我們本來就是藍棲機組換藍莓機組但你還有沒有備而不用嘛備而不用這個是另外一個安全上面的考量嘛會有這樣的安全考量就是因為我們缺電嘛就是電不夠多嘛"},{"start":494.389,"end":504.014,"text":"所以基本上你就是希望當整個緊急有問題的時候甚至有這些問題產生的時候你們所謂的跳電然後就要產生我們的機器來使用啊"},{"start":505.916,"end":530.182,"text":"安全不是說電力不夠叫做安全有一些國防的issue也叫做安全那我要講的是中部地區啊也包含彰化我們在火力發電抗議的時候彰化王縣長也來到現場中部地區的空汙實在是非常嚴重所以我們希望經濟部啊真的要檢討現在的能源政策並且我希望這些員工他們發聲雖然是少數"},{"start":532.122,"end":557.85,"text":"我尊重你的說法但是我們一定要尊重他們的聲音並且能夠保障他們的工作權我們一定尊重少數我沒有講說不尊重少數喔我們當然是尊重少數我只是說他是自由的他可以表達他的意思這樣很好但是您剛剛不要提到說他不高興他可以離開那您感覺就是說你不要來做啊你不要隨便定義我的話"},{"start":558.45,"end":576.535,"text":"你不要講這樣的話啦你不要隨便定義我的話保障這些人的工作權我的話我自己定義你不要隨便定義我的話你講出來了你就接受可受公平嗎我當然接受 但是我講的是我定義不是你定義這些我就不再跟你再多做了因為趙委一直在說時間到了 不好意思喔謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":763,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時26分）謝謝召委。有請部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，我們看一下照片，部長你知道今天氣候先鋒者聯盟發起人楊家法，也是台電員工，帶著台電員工將近百位剛剛在經濟部抗議，您知道這件事嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我有收到報告。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那您知道他們的訴求嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我今天早上還沒有到經濟部。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那您知道他們的訴求嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：嗯？"],["羅委員廷瑋：知道他們的訴求嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不清楚。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，第一個，他們都認為，現階段台電並沒有公開透明，並沒有負起責任，並且相關的政策是大量的虧錢。其中就舉到一個，人事開銷方面，你們說一年撙節了4億，但是錯誤的能源政策4天就燒掉了9億。部長，他們今天所有人的訴求，在經濟部，在你的經濟部面前抗議，你有沒有要回應一下？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想一個團體裡面，我們台電大概有3萬個員工，那一百多個人是不是都我台電的，我也不太清楚。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我剛剛有特別確認，他跟我講，今天同仁至少100位是台電的同仁，不是路人甲、乙、丙、丁。"],["郭部長智輝：是，但也是我們……"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是你要跟我講3萬個人……"],["郭部長智輝：我們台電公司有3萬個人。"],["羅委員廷瑋：然後只有100個人到現場，它是少數的意思嗎？難道所有其他公民團體抗議就不能夠代表他們一定的聲音嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：他是不是代表一定的聲音，或者是他只是自己個人的聲音，我不太清楚。"],["羅委員廷瑋：100個員工就是一股力量、一股聲音嘛！我今天就是說他們的訴求……"],["郭部長智輝：是，但是我要跟委員報告的就是，我們的員工有3萬人。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是你不能說有3萬人，他就是少數，所以他聲音不重要，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我不是說他不重要，不重要是你說的！"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你不需要跟我講你台電員工有沒有3萬人。"],["郭部長智輝：但我只是告訴你，你跟我講有100人，我跟你講我們有3萬人嘛！"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天重點是有一群台電的員工，他們願意站出來，願意表達他們的心聲，他們是現職的員工，但是他們不畏強勢，他們願意站出來，我想問你的是你願不願意回應他們嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：回應什麼啊？我不知道他在訴求什麼。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對不起，我剛剛跟你講的時候，你在旁邊跟人家聊天啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有跟他聊天，我是在問我們有多少人，我沒有聊天喔！"],["羅委員廷瑋：第一，他說你們講撙節開銷，將所謂的人事開銷一年省了4億，但是錯誤的能源政策4天燒掉9億，他是台電人，他看不下去，整個錯誤的能源政策讓台電面臨巨大的虧損，您怎麼回應？"],["郭部長智輝：是嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你覺得台電是賺錢喔？台電賺大錢喔！"],["郭部長智輝：你認為……"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果台電是賺大錢，現在還需要撥補嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：你認為是那個造成我們虧損嗎？你認為是他講的造成我的虧損嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你認為是賺錢，沒有虧損？"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有說它是賺錢，但是你認為它是虧損喔？"],["羅委員廷瑋：這是他們目前講出來的數據。"],["郭部長智輝：那是不是要就虧損這件事情來討論？"],["羅委員廷瑋：您到現在只是要跟我在這邊鬥嘴，沒有意義啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有跟你鬥嘴，是你老是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我說他現在提出的數據，您可不可以回應？您認為呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我不知道要回應什麼！"],["羅委員廷瑋：他說虧錢，錯誤的能源政策……"],["郭部長智輝：虧錢有很多種原因，不能講這個事情是什麼能源政策，他是專家嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：他是第一線實際在台電上班的員工，看不下去啊！那請問一下，您這樣講，那您是專家啦？"],["郭部長智輝：他看不下去喔……"],["羅委員廷瑋：那您是專家嗎？不好意思……"],["郭部長智輝：坦白講，他看不下去，他離開啊！"],["羅委員廷瑋：您是專家嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對不對？看不下去，沒有人要他留在這裡嘛！"],["羅委員廷瑋：您講這句話，我就要問你了，現階段你說請他離開，你會不會秋後算帳？這些人為了自己的心聲、為了全國百姓的聲音說出來……"],["郭部長智輝：我們講了很多次喔！"],["羅委員廷瑋：你說請他離開，你是不是要秋後算帳？"],["郭部長智輝：這是你講的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你為什麼要請他離開？"],["郭部長智輝：這是你講的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你為什麼要在國會殿堂講說請他離開？"],["郭部長智輝：這是你講的，我在國會殿堂講，你要就事實來論述，你不能夠隨便亂講。"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天我是轉述這些團體，他們的聲音……"],["郭部長智輝：你是國會議員，你要怎麼用1.3%的人來講這件事情？第二個，4億的話，你知道我們一年有多少營業額嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：你又著重在1.3%，你現在就是覺得他們人數少，看不起他們嗎？你都不就我剛剛問的問題來回答，第一，我說他們的心聲是這樣，你願不願意回答？你一下說他是專家嗎？一下說他是1.3%的人；現階段你剛剛又回答說那他可以離開啊！所以我要問的第二個問題：你現在會不會針對這些人秋後算帳？"],["郭部長智輝：我為什麼要秋後算帳？你告訴我。"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為你剛剛的態度看起來就是很強硬，你說可以請他們離開啊！"],["郭部長智輝：你看我的態度跟我看你的態度，也都差不多吧！"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你怎麼可以在國會殿堂請人家離開？"],["主席：好！不好意思，羅委員、郭部長，我們現在不要動氣。"],["郭部長智輝：是你在講的嘛！你在講一個事實。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們調回剛剛的錄影帶，你剛剛說：他不高興，他可以離開啊！"],["郭部長智輝：當然，我們沒有要求他不可以離開啊！"],["羅委員廷瑋：你這樣的態度就是漠視這些發生事件的人。"],["郭部長智輝：那要怎麼講呢？"],["羅委員廷瑋：我就希望你就事實回答，他今天在經濟部有遞上陳情書，剛剛我也講了，實際他們所發言的內容……"],["郭部長智輝：我也沒有收到他的陳情書，報告委員，他如果對台電不滿可以向台電陳情，他找我……有很多陳情管道可以往上反映，我們也都有員工反映信箱。"],["羅委員廷瑋：經濟部是主管機關，經濟部是整個能源政策的主管機關，你不要推給台電，那我請教你，就你說的話，國內約有84%電力將轉由火力發電，這是事實吧？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有錯，是從81%轉成84%。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，那我想請問一下，晚上沒有太陽、無風無雨，晚上火力發電會達到多少？會不會將近100%？沒有太陽能，無風無雨啊！"],["郭部長智輝：你這個假設情況的機率非常小。我跟你講，我們還有地熱、還有水力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我當然知道，所以我說將近100%，我沒有跟你說是100%嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：你現在講的……不是這個意思？"],["羅委員廷瑋：我問你晚上無風無雨或沒有太陽，晚上一定沒有太陽吧！這樣是84%火力發電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是多少我要看數字。"],["羅委員廷瑋：一定會增加，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，就我們的資料顯示，這87%是全年的平均。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你用全年的平均來回答我。好，現階段要跟大家講的是，臺中市是最痛苦的，一手拿著我們的稅金去撥補台電；一手漲著我們的電價，再來火力發電最大宗都在臺中，現階段燃氣機組準備要上線，你燃煤機組不願意換。王美花之前承諾願意的條件，請問一下郭部長，換你上任後，王美花說的燃氣機組換燃煤機組還算不算數？"],["郭部長智輝：我們本來就是燃氣機組換燃煤機組。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但你還有沒有備而不用？"],["郭部長智輝：備而不用這是另外一個安全上的考量。"],["羅委員廷瑋：會有這樣的安全考量，就是因為我們缺電、就是電不夠多，所以基本上你希望當整個電力緊急有問題的時候，甚至當問題產生的時候，發生所謂的跳電，然後才會使用到備用機組。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，安全不只是電力不夠，有一些國防的issue也叫做安全……"],["羅委員廷瑋：召委在催我，我要講的是中部地區也包含彰化，我們在針對火力發電廠抗議的時候，彰化王縣長也來到現場，中部地區的空污實在是非常嚴重，所以我們希望經濟部真的要檢討現在的能源政策，並且我希望雖然發聲的是少數的員工，我尊重你的說法，但是我們一定要尊重他們的聲音，並且能夠保障他們的工作權，我再一次拜託。"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定尊重少數，我沒有講不尊重少數喔！"],["羅委員廷瑋：請你不要隨意地講出「他可以離開」這樣的話，真的不好。"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定尊重少數，我只是說他是自由的，他可以表達他的意識。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這樣很好，但是你剛剛不要提到說：他不高興，他可以離開。你給人的感覺就是那你不要來做啊！"],["郭部長智輝：你不要隨便定義我的話。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你不要講這樣的話，要保障這些人的工作權。"],["郭部長智輝：我的話我自己定義，你不要隨便定義我的話。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你講出來了，你就要接受可受公評嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我當然接受，但是我講的話是我定義，不是你定義。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這些我就不跟你再多說了，因為召委一直在催。"],["主席：時間到了，不好意思，謝謝。","現在請蘇清泉委員做詢答，蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束；委員林岱樺所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴瑞隆","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","羅廷瑋","林岱樺"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員魯明哲等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本\n院委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}