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這我知道啊沒有關係 因為是關於刑法的部分那我們不能說我們代表行政院回答但是這個基本的立場我們可知贊同以上你說這個立場法務部是贊同的那很奇怪啊因為我上個禮拜"},{"start":188.627,"end":202.083,"text":"這是要法治委員會質詢法務部部長啊我直接問部長啊說洩密給中國要加重處罰這件事情啊結果部長含糊其詞欸跟今天國土辦的立場一樣欸那今天你是次長"},{"start":203.431,"end":227.756,"text":"市長代表法務部表示贊成就對了我想這個部分因為還是要經過法制作業的研議程序所以呢所以是在沒有經過法制作業的研議程序你個人表示贊成就對了所以你是個人贊成還是代表法務部贊成還是代表行政院贊成我個人的意見你個人意見嘛好來我一次講啦讓跨部會的代表帶意見回去給行政院"},{"start":228.632,"end":248.571,"text":"我向來的主張啊 洩密給中國 刑度就是要加重處罰但我覺得很奇怪啊 我從第九屆國會的時候再修國家安全法 再修國家機密保護法民進黨所展現出來的態度是什麼 都反對啦 都反對啦"},{"start":249.651,"end":274.519,"text":"上面這些都有當初協商的紀錄啦有我跟邱泰山尋答的紀錄啊全部都反對說泄密給中國不用加重處罰我從第九屆國會的時候看到這個立法態度我就覺得很奇怪啊中國是我們最大的外患泄密給中國加重處罰有什麼錯為什麼為什麼民進黨表示反對"},{"start":275.95,"end":291.422,"text":"到這一屆國會的時候我們所提出的國家機密保護法一樣泄密給中國談到民眾黨黨團所提出來的修法加重處罰泄密給中國跟泄密給我們的盟友處罰就是應該不一樣"},{"start":293.12,"end":311.816,"text":"最重要的政策立場我到目前為止整個行政院沒有看到這樣子一個清楚的表態這是立法程序作業的問題嗎這應該是立法政策的問題嘛你立法政策要定了你立法政策要定了接下來在法條的設計上"},{"start":313.257,"end":338.288,"text":"都是相對簡單的問題啦好 今天針對有關於啊洩密給中國我們在法定型的處理上 所謂法定型回到今天討論的國家安全法就第七條 第八條的規定嘛洩密給中國不管是機密 不管是公務上的秘密不管是關鍵基礎設施上面陰秘密的事項法定型都調高法務部贊不贊成"},{"start":340.3,"end":368.169,"text":"我想這個部的意見還是要經過這個研究所以今天沒有辦法表態 來 陸委會贊不贊成我們陸委會對於任何增強國家安全的那個方法跟措施我們都贊成所以呢 副主委你回答得非常易數啊那你就直接講你贊成就好了嘛我個人贊成你市長個人贊成 副主委個人也贊成 來國土辦的贊不贊成"},{"start":370.532,"end":396.889,"text":"就我們主管的關鍵基礎設施防護裡面因為也有相關的法令規定所以當然我們做這樣的一個認同好 我們接下來處理法案的時候就見證章了啦我希望到處理的時候行政部門不要推三阻四的說還要再研議接下來第二個重要的問題剛有其他的委員問到現在綠色共諜橫行府院黨全部都淪陷了"},{"start":398.009,"end":422.187,"text":"當然執政黨的委員幫執政黨講話這個我都可以理解我也沒有怪執政黨的委員但我們現在要討論的重要的問題是什麼重要的問題是當我開始追這件事情的時候我看到的是什麼我看到的事情是依照現行的辦法這些可以接觸到機密的人要喊請法務部調查局辦理特殊查核但問題是就沒辦嗎就沒辦嗎"},{"start":425.939,"end":434.765,"text":"應該辦理特殊查核 卻沒有辦理特殊查核來 請教一下行政院的立場應該辦 卻沒有辦 要不要追究責任還是這個要請法務部次長回答應該辦 沒有辦 要不要追究責任因為這個部分所涉及的機關首長也不是我們我們是受理 調查局是受理連一個基本態度都不敢給喔"},{"start":455.046,"end":468.188,"text":"如果有違私的話當然要辦啦好如果有違私的話當然要辦來怎麼辦依照現行法法律的效果應該要辦特殊查核卻沒有辦特殊查核法律效果是什麼來請教一下"},{"start":471.66,"end":491.064,"text":"這個是公務人員服務法的規定所以咧應該要辦沒有辦嘛那法律效果是什麼這顯然非常重大的國安漏洞嘛應該要辦特殊查核沒有辦特殊查核結果搞到去洩密洩密給共匪責任可以不用追究嗎來請教次長"},{"start":495.232,"end":512.761,"text":"呃 這個部分應該是人事主管法規所以你也沒辦法回答嘛好 沒關係我下面的意見喔 三位再帶回去啦我也不曉得今天這個詢答到底是怎麼排的找了三個人來沒有一個人有辦法代表這個法的主管機關行政院講話我具體的意見啦 是這個樣子"},{"start":514.224,"end":529.95,"text":"這些該辦沒有辦特殊查核的從外交部到總統府我具體的意見啦是沒有依法辦特殊查核的出發要有明確的法律效果沒有明確的法律效果大家都在混嘛"},{"start":530.871,"end":556.943,"text":"全部的人都在混啊發現應該辦沒有辦誰要負責國家足球隊又出來啦踢來踢去那我就問一個最核心的關鍵法律問題應該辦沒有辦的法律效果是什麼現行法複製缺乳我代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團在這邊直接講針對這件事情重大法律上面的缺漏必須要可與罰則這件事情我們會提出啊修正的動議把它補強好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":580,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時21分）謝謝主席，有請陸委會副主委、法務部政次以及國土安全辦的主任。"],["主席：好。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：三位都上來了？時間的關係，不一一問候。一開始，國家安全法的主管機關是哪一個機關？"],["黃次長世杰：報告委員，是行政院。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院嘛！所以今天由誰代表行政院發言？"],["林主任傑：報告委員，今天院裡面有國土安全辦公室跟……"],["黃委員國昌：OK。第一個問題，中國對臺灣的敵意，我相信所有的人都知道，目前對臺灣的國家安全造成最大威脅的就是中華人民共和國，政策上面的立場洩密給中華人民共和國，跟洩密給一般的外國刑罰應該要予以區別對待，講得更具體一點，洩密給中華人民共和國應該要加重處罰。這件事情，行政院的立場如何？我剛特別請可以代表行政院立場的人上來回答這個問題，行政院贊不贊成？"],["林主任傑：報告委員，這個涉及到內部還要再做一些討論。"],["黃委員國昌：還要討論？我們討論非常久了。"],["林主任傑：跟委員報告，今天國土辦出席，主要是因為涉及到關鍵基礎設施的事項來出席。"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？剛剛我就問了，可以代表行政院發言的是誰？要不然各個部會、國家足球隊踢來踢去的，喊說中國是我們的境外敵對勢力，對境外敵對勢力，我說洩密給他們要加重處罰，怎麼每一個人都畏畏縮縮的？行政院到現在你剛剛的回答是這件事情還要研議，是不是？"],["林主任傑：跟委員報告……"],["黃委員國昌：還需要研議多久？"],["林主任傑：涉及到跨部會的事項，我們在通案……"],["黃委員國昌：跨部會的事項，剛剛不是講得很清楚了嗎？這個主管機關是行政院，今天行政院是由你代表回答，我有說錯嗎？"],["林主任傑：報告委員，今天因為這個涉及到院的其他部分，我沒辦法代為回答。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪，今天國家安全法第二條也好、第三條也好、第七條也好、第八條也好，全部涉及的條文，如果主管機關是行政院的話，今天誰代表行政院回答？是法務部嗎？還是陸委會？還是沒有人可以代表？要不然今天辦這個質詢有什麼意義，是由法務部代表嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，今天的邀請名單是由內政委員會提供的。"],["黃委員國昌：這我知道啊！"],["黃次長世杰：我們是受邀來的，但沒有關係，關於這個刑罰的部分，我們不能說我們代表行政院回答，但是這個基本的立場，我們表示贊同，以上。"],["黃委員國昌：你說這個立場法務部是贊同的？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那很奇怪，因為我上個禮拜在司法及法制委員會質詢法務部部長，我直接問部長說洩密給中國要加重處罰這件事情，結果部長含糊其辭，跟今天國土辦的立場一樣。今天你是次長，次長代表法務部表示贊成就對了？"],["黃次長世杰：我想這個部分，因為還是要經過法制作業的研議程序，所以目前沒有結論。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是在沒有經過法制作業的研議程序，你個人表示贊成就對了？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你是個人贊成，還是代表法務部贊成，還是代表行政院贊成？"],["黃次長世杰：我個人的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：你個人意見嘛！好，來，我一次講，讓跨部會的代表帶意見回去給行政院。我向來的主張，洩密給中國刑度就是要加重處罰，但我覺得很奇怪，從第9屆國會在修國家安全法、在修國家機密保護法，民進黨所展現出來的態度是什麼？都反對啦！上面這些都有當初協商的紀錄，有我跟邱太三詢答的紀錄，全部都反對，說是洩密給中國，不用加重處罰。我從第9屆國會看到這種立法態度，就覺得很奇怪，中國是我們最大的外患，洩密給中國加重處罰有什麼錯，為什麼民進黨表示反對？到這一屆國會，我們所提出的國家機密保護法，一樣洩密給中國，台灣民眾黨黨團所提出來的修法是加重處罰，洩密給中國跟洩密給我們盟友的處罰就是應該不一樣，這重要的政策立場，我到目前為止，整個行政院沒有看到可以這樣清楚的表態，這個是立法程序作業的問題嗎？這應該是立法政策的問題嘛！你立法政策要定了，接下來在法條的設計上，都是相對簡單的問題。","好，今天針對有關於洩密給中國，我們在法定刑的處理上，所謂法定刑，回到今天討論的國家安全法，就第七條及第八條的規定，洩密給中國不管是機密、不管是公務上的秘密、不管是關鍵基礎設施上面應秘密的事項，法定刑都調高，法務部贊不贊成？"],["黃次長世杰：我想法務部的意見還是要經過研究及討論的程序。"],["黃委員國昌：所以今天沒有辦法表態？"],["黃次長世杰：對，沒辦法表態。"],["黃委員國昌：來，陸委會贊不贊成？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：陸委會對於任何增強國家安全的方法跟措施，我們都贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：所以副主委回答的非常藝術，就直接講你贊成就好了嘛！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我個人贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：次長個人贊成，副主委個人也贊成，請問國土辦贊不贊成？"],["林主任傑：就我們主管的關鍵基礎設施防護裡，因為已有相關的法令規定，當然我們做這樣的一個認同。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們接下來處理法案就見真章了啦！我希望屆時處理的時候，行政部門不要推三阻四的說：還要再研議。","接下來，第二個重要的問題，剛有其他的委員提到，現在綠色共諜橫行，府院黨全部都淪陷了，當然執政黨的委員幫執政黨講話，這個我都可以理解，我也沒有怪執政黨的委員，但我們現在要討論重要的問題是什麼？重要的問題是當我開始追這件事情的時候，我看到的是什麼？我看到的是依照現行的辦法，這些可以接觸到機密的人，要函請法務部調查局辦理特殊查核，但問題是就沒辦啊！應該辦理特殊查核卻沒有辦理特殊查核。來，請教一下行政院的立場，應該辦卻沒有辦要不要追究責任？還是要請法務部次長回答，應該辦沒有辦要不要追究責任？"],["黃次長世杰：因為這個部分所涉及的機關首長也不是我們，我們調查局是受理……"],["黃委員國昌：連一個基本態度都不敢給喔！"],["黃次長世杰：如果有違失的話，當然要辦，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：好，如果有違失的話，當然要辦，要怎麼辦？依照現行法，法律的效果應該要辦特殊查核卻沒有辦特殊查核，法律效果是什麼？來，請教一下。"],["黃次長世杰：這個是公務人員服務法的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？應該要辦沒有辦嘛！法律效果是什麼？這顯然是非常重大的國安漏洞，應該要辦特殊查核，沒有辦特殊查核，結果搞到去洩密給共匪，責任可以不用追究嗎？來，請教次長。"],["黃次長世杰：這個部分應該是人事主管法規。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你也沒辦法回答嘛！"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係。我下面的意見請三位帶回去，我也不曉得今天這個詢答到底是怎麼排的？找來的三個人，沒有一個人有辦法代表這個法的主管機關行政院講話，我具體的意見是這個樣子，這些該辦沒有辦特殊查核的，從外交部到總統府，我具體的意見是，沒有依法辦特殊查核的「處罰」，要有明確的法律效果，如果沒有明確的法律效果，大家都在混嘛！全部的人都在混啊！發現應該辦沒有辦，誰要負責？國家足球隊又出來了，踢來踢去，我就問一個最核心的關鍵法律問題，應該辦沒有辦的法律效果是什麼？現行法付之闕如，我代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團在這邊直接講，針對這件重大法律上面的缺漏，必須要科予罰則這件事情，我們會提出修正動議把它補強，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林楚茵","黃建賓","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員陳冠\n廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具\n「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及\n第七條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修\n正草案」案；七、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正\n草案」案；八、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案；九、\n審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}