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,{"start":1960.757,"end":1988.31,"text":"本次會有委員黃國昌等二人提出質詢、委員莊瑞雄等二人提出書面質詢決定一報告完畢二委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關警訴送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢請問各位就上次的會議事錄有遺漏或錯誤沒有沒有的話,一事錄確定好,緊接著介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員"},{"start":1990.502,"end":2018.533,"text":"首先介紹這場委員黃國昌委員、謝鴻介委員、鍾嘉斌召委那接著我們介紹應要列席的官員第一位是法院秘書長、吳三龍秘書長法務部部長、鄭明謙部長長賜、黃謀信長賜內政部部長因為部長請假另有要務那這次由現在是由政務次長董建宏次長"},{"start":2021.021,"end":2046.639,"text":"行政院公共工程委員會計畫處處長徐肇熙財政部推動處參司市長李健賢其餘未介紹人員請參議員名單並列入公報紀錄現在到場的是羅志強委員本次議程邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部部長、行政院工程委員會"},{"start":2048.38,"end":2049.501,"text":"首先我們先請司法院吳秘書長報告"},{"start":2074.136,"end":2094.535,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位先生、各位女士本人僅代表司法院就本日的專題盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善僅報告如下"},{"start":2097.099,"end":2107.528,"text":"那麼關於這個議題那因為公私部門合作營運的模式還有範圍廣泛那麼難以一概而論那麼就以"},{"start":2112.845,"end":2133.569,"text":"這個公私部門協力的主要規範的架構促進民間參與公共建設法來做說明按照促參法第三條的規定促參法適用的公共建設範圍廣泛幾環交通、環保、能源、農業、醫療、衛生、文教、修器"},{"start":2141.932,"end":2164.153,"text":"以及市政開發等措施等等都包括在裡面按照促參法第8條第一項各款的規定民間參與公共建設的只要方式大概分成六種我們在書面也有提出就是六種"},{"start":2165.543,"end":2181.096,"text":"那麼這個BOT的模式還有無償BOT的模式有償BOT的模式還有ROT的模式以及這個OT的模式、BOO的模式"},{"start":2182.717,"end":2193.967,"text":"這些規定在促參法的第8條的第一項第一款到第6款有把這些情形都有做規定"},{"start":2197.54,"end":2225.531,"text":"那麼關於這個促參法相關爭議的究竟主要分成兩項來說明第一項是有關最優申請人徵嫌的決定那麼主管機關依照促參法第44條規定評定最優申請人在司法署務上是認為這種徵嫌的決定的性質為行政處分行政處分"},{"start":2226.531,"end":2239.541,"text":"那麼是由可以參考這個最高行政法院那麼111年度上至第913、104年度判至第102號、99年度判至第1024號判決的的議址所以有關這個徵選決定的爭議應該循這個行政徵送的程序來救濟"},{"start":2252.621,"end":2256.824,"text":"第二項是關於投資企業主管機關與最優申請人簽訂的投資企業如有禮業的爭議應該依個案判斷"},{"start":2268.658,"end":2294.571,"text":"是屬於行政企業或司法企業而分別向民事法院或行政法院來請求救濟並且依企業的內容還有相關法規規定來解決個案的正義關於所提到企業的內容例如像促參法第11條所規定關於公共建設的規劃、興建、營運、移轉"},{"start":2298.035,"end":2323.306,"text":"或爭議處理、仲裁條款與企業變更、終止等事項都屬於企業內容所以就依企業內容還有相關法規的規定來解決個案的爭議因為時間關係以上報告進行指教謝謝好 謝謝秘書長下一位我們請法務部部長、政部長報告"},{"start":2331.894,"end":2345.444,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生、大家早安那今天奉邀列席大院貴委員會就盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議的探究與改善那代表本部列席進行專題報告並備質詢"},{"start":2347.566,"end":2376.004,"text":"那我國最主要的公私合作營運領域在引進民間參與國家公共建設藉由民間投資興建公共建設及其經營理念改善公共服務品質那擴大公共建設依促參法第八條第一項規定有六種的類舉的一個方式另外還有如果還有其他經主管機關合併的方式也都是屬於那一種的一個營運模式"},{"start":2377.865,"end":2397.974,"text":"參與建設的申請人認為,主辦機關於申請及審核程序中所為的行為或決定違反促參法或相關法令致損害其權利或利益,得以期限內以書面向主辦機關提出異議,異議人對異議的處理結果不符。"},{"start":2399.096,"end":2416.867,"text":"或者主辦機關屆期部委處理者應以書面向主管機關組成的出參申訴審議會來提出申訴這是出參法第47條這樣的一個規定那另外除了投資契約另有約定外"},{"start":2417.987,"end":2435.315,"text":"如果有禮業爭議．得有投資契約明定組成的協調會來協調．或向主管機關組成的禮業爭議．調解會來申請調解．調解不成．協調不成．或者調解不成立．得經雙合意提付仲裁"},{"start":2436.479,"end":2450.924,"text":"那最後就是公私部門合作營運模式的法制如果與時俱進提升公共服務水準加速社會經濟發展法務部尊重相關主管機關的權責以上報告謝謝部長下一位我們請內政部董事長報告"},{"start":2466.637,"end":2492.981,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生大家好那關於大院司法及法制委員會邀請本部部長等相關來就盤點公私部門營運合作模式之法制爭議之探討與改善進行專題報告本部部長應另有要功所以向本會請假也感謝本會的同意那以下就涉及本部業務的部分予以說明進行指教"},{"start":2494.382,"end":2517.377,"text":"本部相關有關於出餐相關的事宜是由本部國土管理署作為公共建設的窗口那辦理相關的幕僚作業也籌辦本部有關於出餐案的考察及訪視那目前本部關於財政部推動出餐司所列管的案件大概有以下七件包括墾丁國家公園大灣有氣區A棟及B棟的營運轉理案"},{"start":2520.439,"end":2534.193,"text":"陽明山國家公園青山油氣區的整建營運案墾丁國家公園公有停車場營運轉移轉案部落灣三月村度假小屋委託民間經營管理續約案墾丁國家公園南灣油氣區A區營運轉移案"},{"start":2536.455,"end":2559.047,"text":"肯定國家公園小灣區遊客服務區暨潛訊中心營運移轉案肯定國家公園後壁湖遊艇港營運轉移案本部每年辦理一次的出餐訪視於最近兩年在111年辦理肯定國家公園南灣油氣區A區營運轉移案以及肯定國家公園公有停車場營運轉移案的訪視112年則辦理陽明山國家公園青山油氣區營建整理轉移案"},{"start":2565.59,"end":2581.799,"text":"都按照相關的合約辦理那與訪視之後相關的訪視意見以及所提的那個管理的一些改善措施也都登議城鎮部的管考系統那本部所辦理的出張案件基本上是由多數都是由國家公園署以及各國家公園署來辦理"},{"start":2583.34,"end":2583.48,"text":"提醒大院討論"},{"start":2615.603,"end":2618.848,"text":"理事長報告"},{"start":2630.049,"end":2653.85,"text":"主席、各位委員先進大家好那今天各委員會安排相關部會就盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探討與改善進行專題報告本人僅奉部長之命就涉及財政部業務部分做簡要的說明一、促進民間參與公共建設法的執行概況"},{"start":2655.714,"end":2677.729,"text":"自91年統計至113年第二季．出攤案件一共有1661件．投資金額達到1兆38億元．涵蓋的公共服務範圍．包括食衣住行、娛樂等生活領域．縱觀近三年．包括今年上半年．我們的簽約的這個金額持續成長．"},{"start":2681.547,"end":2697.657,"text":"2.有關出差案件的爭議處理機制出差案件的爭議的態樣包括發生於簽約前的申請審核階段以及簽約後的履約階段以下就這兩個階段的處理規定做一個說明"},{"start":2700.81,"end":2720.798,"text":"1.申請審核階段之異議申訴依據《出產法》47條明定參與公共建設之申請人認為主辦機關於申請及審核程序所為之行為或決定有違反《出產法》及有關法令致損及其權益或利益者,得於同法"},{"start":2721.658,"end":2739.665,"text":"各款規定期限內以書面向主辦機關提起異議同法第三項也規定一人對於異議處理結果如果不符或主辦機關藉其不為處理者應於一定期限內以書面向本部促參申訴會提起申訴"},{"start":2742.706,"end":2748.493,"text":"本部依據上述授權也定有民間參與公共建設申請及審核程序的爭議處理規則．同時在102年也設置了申訴審議會來專責此項業務．截至目前為止一共有收建34件"},{"start":2763.116,"end":2780.984,"text":"2.在履約管理階段的爭議調解。出產法48條之一有明定,履約上的爭議得由雙方組成協調會來協調,或向本部履約爭議調解會來申請調解。協調不成或調解不成,得經主辦機關與民間機構來合議提付仲裁。"},{"start":2785.97,"end":2806.365,"text":"一、在個案成立協調會的部分,依據《促參法》48條之一,雙方協調會應於投資契約簽訂次日起90日內來組成,投資契約並應明定協調會組成的方式與運作機制。二、本部組成履約爭議調解會,"},{"start":2808.466,"end":2824.716,"text":"如果主辦機關因為發生爭議經協商未果．得向本部申請調解那出單法48條之一．也來授權本部．有訂有出地民間參與公務建設案件．履約爭議調解會的組織準則．還有調解收費辦法以及調解規則等三個執法"},{"start":2832.661,"end":2844.046,"text":"本部也在112年的7月來成立履約爭議調解會．截至目前為止有9件的促參案來提出調解的申請"},{"start":2845.509,"end":2868.344,"text":"最後三節與有關出差案件的異議申訴處理結果及履約的爭議那本部分別有申訴審議會跟履約爭議調解會來協助那其能透過相關的機制來快速解決各階段的一些異議或爭議以提高民間參與公共建設投資的一個誘因以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝好 謝謝那"},{"start":2875.459,"end":2877.262,"text":"中嘉賓召委有那個會議詢問"},{"start":2896.348,"end":2924.336,"text":"謝謝主席感謝昭偉今天安排盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善那對這個題目呢本席過去在上屆前幾個會期都在財政委員會那對這個題目的理解我是擔心所有的認知是不是有誤不過謝謝我們主席安排這個議程那也請了我們剛剛包括了財政部、內政部跟工程會的說明"},{"start":2924.916,"end":2952.319,"text":"那讓我們理解到大概這裡面所談的公私部門合作營運方式也介紹了VOT三種、VOO、VTO、OT、VRT還有這樣的一個模式那我比較想請教的是說因為今天涉及到我們後續的質詢因為這是一個很大的範疇那想請教主席說那我們剛剛聽到的幾位機關代表他們在說明的是指涉這些相關不同模式底下的爭議處置"},{"start":2953.88,"end":2976.265,"text":"那就我所了解啦,這個部分大概會辦理這些項目的呢,就剛剛內政部的機關代表所說的,大概是在特定的幾個營建署,或者是國家公營管理處。那麼工程會的部分是處於糾紛調解,但是財政部因為請到了促參司,那促參司過去就是我們所謂的公私部門合作,一個相當政府部門重要的推動單位。"},{"start":2978.274,"end":3005.052,"text":"我覺得他們來這裡可能等本席待會的詢問可以來問他們但我比較好奇的是那今天我們請司法院跟法務部是要回答或者是來備詢什麼樣的範疇因為沒有具體的個案所以想請教一下主席今天安排這個題目的內容我們待會質詢的範圍跟質詢的對象以及他們所要負責回應的內容大概所指為何還是給一個比較清楚的方向不然我們待會的質詢會離題"},{"start":3007.293,"end":3022.046,"text":"因為最近對於立法院的質詢制度有多所外界有些批評那我希望能夠落實就今天召委所安排的主題來進行質詢跟討論那也希望能夠獲至列席的機關代表比較明確的回應是不是可以請教一下主席"},{"start":3023.757,"end":3052.776,"text":"沒有 就像你剛剛說的就是現在有BOT、BTO、ROT、OT或BOO甚至各種其他金主管機關合定的合作項目本來就很多了嘛那所有的糾紛 現在發生糾紛一定就是由法務部或司法院在管理嘛對不對 我說假設啦或是有一些因此引發的一些問題嘛所以我們今天請他來只是說請他就報告看他對於這些東西有沒有合作營運模式的一些法制爭議他們有什麼想法就這樣"},{"start":3053.336,"end":3072.944,"text":"那當然啦今天任何會議的召開一定是有委員像我這邊希望說可以召開這樣的會議嘛那既然有委員提出來那有大家有這個興趣那我們當然就就這個部分去救教這些行政部門啊我想如果張召偉如果說待會你對行政部門有什麼意見的話有什麼問題的話"},{"start":3074.404,"end":3101.301,"text":"也歡迎能夠跟他們提出問題謝謝主席的答覆,非常感謝我的理解大概就是說,如果是就於這些公私合作營運模式因為它是一個民事契約,政府作為一方所發生的爭議大概都會無外乎在內政部啦、工程會啦或者是促參司他們來處理那如果是個案的部分涉及到屬於包括有因為這樣公私模式引延生的民事或形式上的訴訟、爭議那就會由司法院或法務部來受理,大概是這個意思吧"},{"start":3103.012,"end":3122.351,"text":"我確認一下嘛不是你今天你問我會議那我就跟你說我們的想法是什麼嘛然後今天保護部或司法院來我們當然就如果偵查中的案子當然就不方便就請大家不要去就偵查中的案子去問是"},{"start":3123.413,"end":3132.954,"text":"如果說今天大家有什麼問題﹖法制面﹖通案上面有什麼意見要提出來問那就提出來問﹖至於說有沒有離題﹖"},{"start":3134.507,"end":3134.988,"text":"謝謝主席的答案"},{"start":3162.042,"end":3180.494,"text":"好 謝謝大家那我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘那非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們現在先請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":3189.407,"end":3216.543,"text":"對不起主席在開始宣達以前作為司法法制委員會的議員我想要程序上面先跟主席確認一些事情請主席多包涵第一個我尊重昭偉的職權我尊重昭偉的職權但我也希望昭偉能夠尊重司法法制委員會的委員司法法制委員會要怎麼運作"},{"start":3218.619,"end":3239.009,"text":"請了機關的代表來機關的代表就他所執掌的事項回答立法委員針對人民所關心的事情加以質詢這個是本院這個是本院各個委員會的常態我相信不用我說啦也不需要當立法委員"},{"start":3239.969,"end":3257.316,"text":"我們在場非常多的媒體的朋友甚至在網路上面關心立法院運作的公民大概都可以印證我剛剛所說的並沒有錯但我現在要請教主席的事情是說在剛剛會議詢問的階段在剛剛會議詢問的階段我不希望有誤會"},{"start":3263.12,"end":3290,"text":"昭偉有要限制今天個別的立委巡達會議巡達過程的主題嗎昭偉有要干預有要限制嗎沒有我剛剛已經講很清楚我說這個長久以來沒有這種事情嘛所以我剛剛不是講跟昭偉在這麼多年應該看得很清楚那個昭偉我相信你也不會等一下會議巡達到一半了以後你人跑掉剝奪其他委員的質詢權吧"},{"start":3291.63,"end":3293.491,"text":"委員長早部長早我想針對我們的前海星會董事長鄭文燦"},{"start":3312.746,"end":3330.597,"text":"貪污受賄的事情全體國民都很關心大家在質疑的是現在在照片上面右手邊的這個廖俊松送錢的被收押了左手邊第一個胡猜桃給鄭文燦當時桃園市市長跑去參加我們華亞園區"},{"start":3344.475,"end":3354.488,"text":"地主的座談會啊選前跑去參加黃金周啊遞給他一個好猜頭啊還去跟地主拔感情啊昨天我為了我們的行政院院長卓榮泰"},{"start":3361.343,"end":3390.378,"text":"我說齁 早就查到金流 也有監聽議文的貪污案為什麼 過了七年 才開始偵辦當初 參與處理的 一些檢調的人員不是被調職 就是被施壓 沒有辦法辦這個案子昨天 卓榮泰院長 他的回覆是什麼他 我覺得他的回覆還算中肯"},{"start":3391.562,"end":3415.416,"text":"社會上大家難免有相同的想法那我今天看早上的早報卓榮泰院長也說如果設有不法要全面偵辦部長贊不贊成院長所表達的這個態度我們尊重院長的一個意見尊重院長的意見所以對院長的意見你只是尊重"},{"start":3417.825,"end":3442.439,"text":"這個是報載的有這樣的因為我想這個我簡單這樣講啦涉及到貪腐的弊案我們總統賴清德不是說速貪是目前政府重要的工作部長你這樣贊成還是你也尊重賴總統的講法這個速貪是我們全力要去好很好如果速貪是我們全力要偵辦的工作的話現在社會大眾就有個問題嘛"},{"start":3443.94,"end":3453.682,"text":"這件事情鄭文燦一個人幹得來嗎?要不要全面的徹查?全面的侵犯?請教部長部長我覺得你不要大小眼啊臺南那十一槍的事情我看媒體"},{"start":3470.302,"end":3487.787,"text":"你震怒啊 下令啊 徹查嚴辦啊奇怪了 怎麼遇到民進黨的大官貪污講話就這麼保守 尊重桃園地檢署從法務部的立場 要不要徹查嚴辦往上偵辦 有沒有底線這份證據到哪裡 我們就好 我請教部長這是我 把整個時間軸全部整理出來"},{"start":3500.916,"end":3529.485,"text":"2017年9月的時候收了錢收了錢以後鄭文燦很認真收錢是有辦事的馬上親自主持會議親自主持會議做了什麼事來我再跟部長講一下提供貼心的服務山坡地解編我來處理最大的地主那個寺廟我也來出面處理第三個最重要的我要跟行政院爭取"},{"start":3530.424,"end":3552.667,"text":"你們這邊的這個農地啊我要爭取核定為國家重大建設目的是什麼這文章還很貼心的交代這裡面9.12公頃記得要納入記得要納入這個會議資料不是我偽造變造的我等一下質詢完我會提供給所有的媒體朋友參考"},{"start":3553.846,"end":3578.161,"text":"收了錢以後有沒有辦事有辦事很冷靜的但問題是什麼這個事情鄭文燦一個人辦得出來嗎要跟我們的國家爭取納入啊欸這個很重要啊要整個國家壯大建設啊以後要變更地木的時候才會好變更嘛結果我們這位送錢的人喔處理完了鄭文燦以後處理誰啊"},{"start":3580.582,"end":3602.663,"text":"馬上跟總統府陳情總統府陳情完了以後來請部長看清楚這也不是偽造變造有蓋印章的時任總統府的秘書長吳釗燮馬上下條子峻松理事長會見峻松理事長是誰就現在被收押的廖峻松峻松理事長會見你12月4號次總統府函集復見"},{"start":3605.629,"end":3612.461,"text":"我看完了以後我已經交代什麼我交代行政院去做了這個是2027年12月12號總統府秘書長他的總統府用簽"},{"start":3619.239,"end":3637.452,"text":"那總統府也沒有騙這位廖俊松啊馬上交代下去啊交代下去給誰行政院秘書長啊行政院秘書長速度很快啊12月14號的時候馬上交代給行政院秘書長秘書長卓榮泰的章啊蓋在下面"},{"start":3638.732,"end":3663.479,"text":"拿到了卓榮泰的章了以後啊這位廖峻松啊馬上遞廖峻松12月19號押的日期啊遞給誰遞給鄭市長說市長我們要爭取把他納入國家重大建設我去找了總統府總統府也交代了行政院行政院的秘書長卓榮泰也回函了我跟你回報"},{"start":3664.781,"end":3694.116,"text":"下面還要親自的簽名啊欸 鎮市長這些事情我都做了在台灣啊為什麼很多年輕人痛恨權貴啊有權有勢的人有關係好辦事什麼叫有關係好辦事他們跟一般的公民不一樣啊找完了總統找完了行政院行政院交代下去來看一下經濟部內政部馬上就核准火速核准啊"},{"start":3696.031,"end":3723.228,"text":"2017年年底處理完了總統府跟行政院以後經濟部、內政部馬上核准沒有問題這個地方很重要我們馬上依照都市計畫法27條第一項第三款的規定配合國家經濟建設嘛都市計畫法27條第一項第三款這就是要件嘛我想今天內政部的代表在這邊應該也很清楚嘛誰配合"},{"start":3724.557,"end":3725.338,"text":"2019年4月我手上這一本"},{"start":3747.989,"end":3771.128,"text":"2019年4月申請的機關是誰桃園市政府提給內政部的計畫桃園市政府提給內政部什麼計畫來請部長仔細看左手邊的圖阿是搞了好久2014年以前搞了好久搞不動的他為什麼搞不動你要把農業區變成特定專用區哇這個姿勢體大還有寺廟"},{"start":3776.531,"end":3803.029,"text":"還要簽帳知識體大沒有關係啊我們的鄭文燦市長都出面大家處理好啊處理好了最大的地主他也來處理中央他也來處理非常的賣命啊非常的賣命啊台灣社會為什麼跟人家詬病有關係就沒關係啊這個廖俊松關係很好啊除了找鄭文燦送他五百萬"},{"start":3805.123,"end":3831.095,"text":"還找上我們中央政府來右手邊來再請部長注意看因為我們是法律人講話要有憑有據馬上右手邊不僅是那個9.12公頃9.12公頃連旁邊更大的全部都劃進來一開始是9公頃後來胃口越來越大9公頃不夠啦我們要幾公頃我們要50公頃"},{"start":3832.768,"end":3857.378,"text":"五十公頃才夠看九公頃算什麼啊結果咧 來看一下這個是桃園市政府提出來的計畫五十公頃的農地變什麼第二產業專用區啊第五種住宅區啊哇點石成金啊本來在那邊沒有辦法開發沒有辦法用的地"},{"start":3859.69,"end":3887.877,"text":"有權有勢的人廖俊松一出面從地方到中央一條龍服務啊一條龍服務啊變更成什麼來看一下農業區變更成第二種產業用具第五種住宅區鄭文燦點石成金啊非常的厲害啊非常的厲害啊我就覺得很奇怪這些事情這些東西"},{"start":3889.503,"end":3914.084,"text":"這些事情這些東西檢調不知道嗎?檢調不知道嗎?還是檢調知道了?沒有辦法辦!為什麼沒有辦法辦?兩個人就巴結阿事情發生的時候鄭文燦、邱台山出任法務部部長的時候本來是鄭文燦的副市長阿給他最大的祝福阿"},{"start":3915.4,"end":3929.217,"text":"結果呢我們的邱泰山跟那個時候桃園地檢署的檢察長這個是我2019年在立法院追的案子我最痛恨司法關說法務部部長幹過法務部部長的人敢去關說司法"},{"start":3930.666,"end":3952.661,"text":"結果那時候邱泰山雖然一下子下台但是什麼轉身一過我們的蔡政府又重用出任陸委會的主委另外一個叫彭坤業兩個人在大車輪日本料理吃日本料理施壓幫富商逃漏稅針對外界所質疑的當初為什麼沒有辦法辦約談也沒有辦法約談"},{"start":3956.653,"end":3966.898,"text":"有沒有人洩密這麼慘怎麼知道那些監聽議員匆匆忙忙趕快把錢還回去法務部這邊開始調查了沒有我想這個是有關你案情的一個部分桃園地檢署都會一併來瞭解處理真的嗎桃園地檢署都會一併瞭解處理從2017年瞭解到2024年2017年瞭解到2024年"},{"start":3984.386,"end":4003.618,"text":"作為我們法務部的大家長阿對於我們的檢調辦案辦得這麼辛苦面臨到這麼大的壓力部長要不要給他們打打氣說不要害怕任何權貴部長當你的靠山向上分辦不管牽涉到誰辦到底部長"},{"start":4004.761,"end":4019.446,"text":"有沒有這樣的氣魄本來檢察官辦案就是證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡因為我剛好我們司法法制委員會有個受害人叫吳宗憲召委他當過檢察官檢察官是不是辦案想辦到哪裡就辦到哪裡還是辦一辦"},{"start":4021.827,"end":4050.226,"text":"拜不下去了可能下一棒吳宗憲委員上來質詢的時候你有更多阿好的經驗可以跟部長交流因為剛剛部長告訴全體國人的是說檢察官要辦沒有壓力啦要辦哪裡都可以但我對這件事情部長你說的理想我很希望在台灣社會成真您說的理想我很希望在台灣社會成真我很希望台灣社會有一天我們的政府"},{"start":4051.414,"end":4068.372,"text":"我們的法務部部長夠親民、夠擔當跟我們全體的基層檢察官跟全體的基層調查員講掃除貪賭不法部長給你最大的靠山不管辦到誰誰敢施壓我部長第一個跳出來我希望部長有這個肩膀"},{"start":4070.074,"end":4095.626,"text":"我想部長的意思是說他以後絕對會挺啦那以前的部長挺不挺我們心裡都很清楚啦但是部長剛剛跟我們講他以後就會挺基層檢察官辦案那不受政治干預嘛對不對部長我相信你一定會挺將來所有的檢察官、調查官、廉政官好好的辦這些政治人物的案子我想你一定會挺下去不會像我們當年那樣子嘛"},{"start":4099.748,"end":4119.817,"text":"你剛不是跟黃國昌委員這樣說嗎?我相信你絕對是這樣子的人啦那我們也都非常的期待部長,剛你講的如果是真的,那我就簡單問一個事嘛你講的如果是真的,怎麼會出現邱派山跟彭坤業在大車輪日本料理,密商完了又回去施壓基層檢察官的事這件事你不會沒聽說吧?"},{"start":4122.702,"end":4144.488,"text":"社會鬧得這麼大你不會沒聽說吧基層檢察官受不了了才在檢察官論壇爆發嘛怎麼會沒有施壓沒有施壓這個是什麼是我們做夢夢到的嗎千真萬確的事情啊我希望這件事情喔部長不要只是消極的這個討厭地檢署討厭地檢署檢察官獨立辦案我絕對尊重但是當初誰在阻擾檢察官辦案"},{"start":4150.491,"end":4171.565,"text":"誰在阻擾檢察官辦案為什麼那些要辦的調查員不是自動請調還是被請調要不然就是被清算作為法務部的大家長我給部長的建議是要去了解要不然你剛剛所想的那個夢想不會實現謝謝"},{"start":4209.96,"end":4211.561,"text":"主席我請內部長麻煩部長"},{"start":4222.321,"end":4242.19,"text":"部長、教授辛苦先給你按一個讚不管是古案新版或是西案外版最好不談沒版這案件為什麼很嚴重呢?因為這跟羅總統有關係所以我在這裡很堅定羅昌德總統"},{"start":4248.755,"end":4272.883,"text":"他說他要打擊黑金、對抗黑金、對抗貪污保庇我那一天、上星期二在總結社會上跟党員說因為不是你的業務啦,所以你沒在現場啦我說如果過去北京的高雄高鐵跟党營台內閣是沒關係啦但是如果在現在的內閣裡面,你如果沒辦,就變成保庇"},{"start":4278.219,"end":4291.004,"text":"這對一個法務部長的簽名來說是很嚴重所以修昇本席在這裡先給你按一個讚就是說輕重有什麼剛才在說鄧文成這個案件沒辦不行這個案件修正那一陣修正那一日就對了大陸聖敵總統在台南市要起來做行政委員會的時候"},{"start":4306.187,"end":4330.393,"text":"他剛才在一個拜訪他就說他做行政移動後要改觀有缺啦欠水欠電欠土地因為很多台商火流需要很多土地我投行的水火流順便空他要創造很多土地所以你若是沒有辦法清拯會變成當機時的熱情中移動是不是比較容易有狡詐作為這是依照他的情形"},{"start":4336.192,"end":4351.161,"text":"所落去、延伸出來的一個開發案所以本席在這裡針對這個案件是把你們牽扯了也把老總統牽扯了但是會很辛苦啦也會有很多壓力啦你要擋住了啦你若沒有讓這個檢察官闢國做他們的課稅 坦白說這九位他會像氣球一樣 給整個這樣小風雨"},{"start":4367.157,"end":4384.031,"text":"這樣就昏迫社會在傾聽你不然我也要在這心中跟你說說司法打擊黑金打擊犯罪但是不能勝為政敵打壓的工夫這點也很重要變成政敵打壓的工夫這樣下去"},{"start":4392.725,"end":4408.193,"text":"會讓北省新北京對司法的信賴感再度來釋放這點在這裡給你 傾聽 也給你提醒我現在要請教你一個問題一關於四月二三 我們這個大法官編發匯讀私刑的辯論 照你說是七月二三就要裁判 有跟你們同意嗎"},{"start":4422.082,"end":4424.324,"text":"沒有通知沒有通知就沒有答案"},{"start":4450.569,"end":4475.149,"text":"三個月來七月二月就夠了啊我們的秘書長有什麼動作沒機會輸這樣這台法官私刑算判三個月來若沒判啊三萬若九月二月就判啊好沒關係好有保紀人沒收到這個通緝來你針對到這個破國的結果你們有做推演嗎"},{"start":4480.523,"end":4496.553,"text":"我們一定要對整個判決的一個的結果,因為我們對判決怎麼樣我們不清楚你會有推演嘛,對不對?各種的判決是危險、不危險、否則是部分危險,你都有因應之稱嗎?"},{"start":4498.733,"end":4510.459,"text":"這個我們一定會做一個起早的一個因應但是這個我們因為這個我們要隨著一個是一個來做一個股如果說選舉選舉這個C型是合憲的如果這樣依舊有一個C型的規定37個C型份的"},{"start":4517.628,"end":4521.609,"text":"這部份我們還會照依照我們執行、實行的相關的一個的規定,我們來做一個檢視。"},{"start":4535.373,"end":4564.466,"text":"不會怎麼挑選這個執行的對象這是個案的一個這是個案沒有啊執行的對象這個執行因為我們這個有一個一套的一個很縝密的一個規定因為你要看就是他的他是不是還可以繼續救濟嘛他如果說有有還有在一個一個申請一個救濟或者一個一個身體有一個已經沒有了嘛但我剛才說了這裡他們的案子都沒有了其實是說他是不是有信心重礙嘛"},{"start":4566.499,"end":4569.242,"text":"你要怎麼走啦?因為這個權益是你的啊!權益你的嘛!對不對?你總是要有一個...37歲要先長大一下啊!你要有一個大...欸這社會基台很多耶!"},{"start":4586.655,"end":4607,"text":"這個我們有頒布一個那個執行死刑規則跟審核死刑案件的執行所以要點你沒有一些規定我們會用這個規定來做一個審核你知不知道大法官在這次我不知道你有派人去辯論但是辯論那時候不是你做保證嘛你知不知道他辯論的規定裡面他把那個私刑判決的定數是不是要經濟辯護"},{"start":4614.665,"end":4630.913,"text":"移籍到原屬辯論．到評議一帝．還有包括他是不是針對是信心重礙．有去來跟法施行這部份的．做辯論的重點在這方面．你覺得有這件事情嗎"},{"start":4635.451,"end":4643.656,"text":"委員好,因為這個有列入這個辯論的內容但是那個比較不是重點是所在啦好不好就有關於身心障礙我們的答案是那個是個案審查好沒關係啦,我要問你,你先說,你等一下"},{"start":4664.864,"end":4688.875,"text":"所以大法官就對了他有可能認定施行的制度是違憲啦那這裡是說有可能認定施行的制度是合憲啦 都有可能啦但是呢目前這37個施行犯的審理來得到處大概都沒有正式鑑定啦目前啦 現況啦"},{"start":4693.311,"end":4699.016,"text":"這次是說他在第三次選舉時沒有聘任就輸了這三十幾個你這樣也不可以輸辯論用這三項總要給你雙個說這樣危險啦會這樣嗎?"},{"start":4712.405,"end":4733.48,"text":"這個我沒辦法做預報你請你答因為你以前那不是沒有你沒他更了解不過這個是因為會不會宣佈違憲並不是我們現在可以預見的那有沒有當時出庭陳述意見跟這一件應該是沒什麼關係再來如果台灣官員選擇私刑是危險的其實他政格的定數不完畢"},{"start":4734.701,"end":4741.63,"text":"來認為是違憲：這樣目前這37個私刑犯是不是可以拿去回鄉上所要求重新審理這部分我請那個...沒關係這診檢上的"},{"start":4753.804,"end":4780.28,"text":"各位報告,如果是假設性的問題,如果是這種狀況之下,因為這個案子他申請是在我們憲法輸入法實行之前,所以按照我們憲法輸入法901條規定,他有一個特別的救急程序,就是假總長得申請這個...得提起負擔上訴嘛,對不對,好來。阿如果這樣才是私刑犯齁,他在判決確定之後,他繼續,我們繼續把他記下嘛,關掉了嘛。"},{"start":4781.479,"end":4781.839,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":4805.7,"end":4832.499,"text":"有啦他收容程序,羈押,羈押有羈押的程序羞庸啦,羞庸可以多久啦羞庸可以羞庸多久啦沒有羞庸嗎?沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦"},{"start":4833.579,"end":4853.782,"text":"那是羈押,那是羈押,最長期的那是羈押啊這裡的人都管小規五檔了嘛,對不對?這裡的人都管小規五檔了嘛,是不是這樣啊?剛剛委員提的事,圖書長法是在講這個羈押成績的最長期我之前問創部長的時候,我有跟他說啊,卡蘇納酸更危險啦,施行完整有可能會崩出來啦"},{"start":4855.403,"end":4869.211,"text":"很有可能會放出來當然還有我們本會的委員說很可能啦那件事是說沒違法而已 暗是判沒罪啦 對不對所以這些人若是放出來 我這就是覺得這很嚴重啦不一定會放出來啦若是私刑違憲啦 這些人違法要放出來沒有啦"},{"start":4883.85,"end":4906.49,"text":"應該還是在收容的一個程序吧?還收容?繼續收容?收容就五年而已啊!這個人就超過五年啊!那個收容是沒有期限,那個是剛才講是妥適審判完那個羈押的一個最長的期限。我告訴你,因為他現在發揮要重新判官嘛!就表示他還沒判多點嘛,是為這個撤銷羈押嘛!對不對?是不是這樣?反而他是不是要把這個被告釋放啊?"},{"start":4912.858,"end":4914.659,"text":"他變做比革娘呢?處長這樣才會人心事都超過五年了啦剛剛講的那個你講的妥恕手段法他其實是在講羈押的最長期限制的問題所以你確定不會綁?不會綁?市長啦有他現這三個七個都不會綁?"},{"start":4944.69,"end":4973.113,"text":"你不跟我說?會受訪嗎?沒有你跟我說嗎?這很嚴重啦,我跟你們說我是覺得這台法官吃飯卡中風的啦我希望他在基因裡面才有清楚在基因裡面才沒有清楚社會的面對這個問題"},{"start":4975.632,"end":4988.679,"text":"這些人是要放出來的,沒有對我講的頭痛,不是不可能的,因為大法官他的臉頸就已經看我們都不一樣,他說也不用看客戶的民意,法務部要怎麼面對這個事情就對了"},{"start":5000.205,"end":5023.783,"text":"您這次派去辯論的,在辯論的時候,有沒有跟大法官提倡?你如果跟提倡日記院頂頭的主委啊,你不能當作他們都很厲害嗎?當作他們都會想很多嗎?不可能的,這是有可能放出來的,不對嗎?索賀一下啦,鳳凰伊米蓮啦"},{"start":5026.035,"end":5055.498,"text":"我們共同這因為這出來時高難低變成這個社會這樣就在你們的身上還是你要了解之後跟一個書面分析一下好不好這個我們就在書面跟來書面用書面來分析一下你了解我清楚這有關的這部分我們會在書面就是在施行危險的情形下"},{"start":5057.572,"end":5061.695,"text":"部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長"},{"start":5085.56,"end":5100.113,"text":"的那個活動所以我跟莊大兵召委兩個是非常支持法務部還有基層檢察官的所以其實我們不是說會找基層檢察官的麻煩我們真的是很希望為基層檢察官多做一點事情啦我也好"},{"start":5102.766,"end":5130.544,"text":"那個戰國時候那個韓非子說奉法者強則國強這也是法務部這次的閱歷上面所引用的公義閱歷上面所引用的所以我一直覺得奉法者強則國強奉法者弱則國弱這是韓非子他所說的一句話那我真的覺得部長這可以替基層的檢察官捍衛千萬不要讓外面的任何力量來介入檢察官辦案就像就像"},{"start":5131.758,"end":5152.623,"text":"部裡面也不應該逼檢察官把扣案的證物發還這是不應該的當事人可以申請發還但絕對不應該由法務部來下令要求檢察官把扣案證物發還我不是說這一次的個案話說到這裡就好謝謝部長那我們下一位請鍾嘉賓召委"},{"start":5165.164,"end":5181.692,"text":"主席我還是先一個會議詢問那您剛剛在我第一次會議詢問的時候您說今天安排這個專報是因為有本委員會委員請你安排這個主題所以你安排了這個主題那我發現您雖然是本屆財新陸立法院你也對於我們委員會裡面委員"},{"start":5185.314,"end":5212.993,"text":"詢問質詢的自由度跟自主性都很大那您覺得從剛剛我也拜聽了機關代表的說明也聽了前面兩位委員的質詢請教主席你覺得你原來安排這個題目的專報有沒有符合剛剛之前那位委員對您請求希望安排的內容中召委有沒有每個委員他的發言我們尊重他的發言我瞭解啊多尊重啊那中召委如果你有興趣你去看一下歷次我們的會議的直播"},{"start":5214.195,"end":5241.925,"text":"跟會議無關然後整天在喊國會的擴權什麼抗中保台是誰所以我們不要在這邊討論這個問題有興趣我們私下我們兩個不是因為您剛剛可能有一些跟法務部長的可能是私下的對話您公開講可能我覺得如果按照您剛剛的詢問您覺得您過去幫檢察官有被施壓或許今天專報題目又改為如何促進本國司法檢察官獨立辦案免於施壓的專報這樣不是更好嗎"},{"start":5242.745,"end":5270.006,"text":"我哪一句話說我被施壓?所以中召委...剛剛...中召委我剛剛還特別講一句齁我在為全國的檢察官講話那我也說了一句我剛郭昌委員講話我也說了一句我說以前怎麼樣我不知道但是我相信部長不會我也非常期待部長我剛講了如果你覺得不是你會聽聽看我剛說的我尊重您的表達就是說您說過去你也不知道包括你本人有沒有被"},{"start":5270.926,"end":5293.375,"text":"但是我跟你講啦我記憶力沒有那麼差啦那我過去的事情我想講不想講這是我的權利任何人沒有權利逼我說啦那我只是說在這邊我相信你跟我我們兩個都參加過漸新減改的會議我們兩個都是支持檢察官的我只希望說我們就是挺基層的檢察官就這樣而已所以我很支持說今天的專報如果是這個題目就更好啦不過你這個題目我很喜歡因為我過去在財政會多年啊"},{"start":5298.517,"end":5316.404,"text":"這個題目非常適合在財政委員會來關心這樣的一個題目好 那接下來我就要邀請我們的內政部的董事長、工程會的徐處長以及財政部的李司長我們就今天專報的主題來就教雖然這個場景可能比較像在財政委員會好 謝謝"},{"start":5324.144,"end":5351.609,"text":"那個次長好、次長好、處長好來,我們今天來關心的這所謂的公私模式那我也覺得很好奇今天的這個題目要怎麼來談其實我們在發現次長這個你很熟悉嘛這是我們大學經濟學原理供給曲線跟需求曲線我的標題怎麼說,我的標題說我覺得目前我們國家對於用融資及租稅的手段要控制房市的價格"},{"start":5352.529,"end":5381.368,"text":"但是根本要用公共的建設的增加供應的建設增加供給來滿足需求我來看我們現在我們來看看原來這個黑色的是我們民眾對於房地產住屋的需求曲線這是供給曲線那麼我們的需求曲線是這個D需求曲線價格越高需求就被壓制價格越低數量就越多這個D是這個需求曲線目前的供給曲線是S"},{"start":5382.869,"end":5402.51,"text":"目前這個P的價格我們認為太高了所以政府希望能夠把這個價格壓低但當價格壓低的時候它是P2它是透過房地合一稅還有一個避所期以至於供給曲線它變成怎麼樣供給變少了供給變少的結果結果是什麼"},{"start":5403.564,"end":5431.617,"text":"是不是當S變成S2的時候價格就更高了是不是這樣子你同不同意所以目前我們用融資我們用租稅的手段包括房地合一稅包括閉鎖期避免房市炒作短期間內抑制了高單價物件的飆漲但是呢長期來看至少目前它就造成供給的減少造成需要租屋的民眾他更要花更高的價格買到更少的房子是不是這樣子同不同意"},{"start":5433.493,"end":5445.82,"text":"主席、委員感謝委員提問原則上住宅不一定符合我們一般供給需求的狀態因為住宅供給的過程有新建期的狀態"},{"start":5448.081,"end":5476.129,"text":"那所以我們基本上新清安基本上還是幫助了許多年輕人減輕他目前融資的負擔是不是對但是我們也希望說在房價上面要有所平益所以我們希望說透過平均地權條例或者房地合一稅等等我們降低高殭價的一些炒作那我們希望讓年輕人可以透過一些比較合理的方式來運營他的房子因為內政部主管住宅啦但是後面的問題在我們市長了市長"},{"start":5478.697,"end":5493.233,"text":"那是不是如果說我們今天變成是S1曲線,這是供給曲線,這個供給曲線呢增加了供給量,增加供給量之後價格會下降,那個可以滿足的需求量就更大,是不是這樣子?變成S2,S1是不是這樣子?"},{"start":5495.595,"end":5512.762,"text":"所以要增加供給嗎?報告委員按照理論上是這樣按照理論上是這樣所以前面說的我們不否定政府的一些政策的確控制高房價高物件的飆漲跟炒作是有效但長期來看還是要增加供給才能讓一般的年輕人買得到房子是不是這樣子?好往下看"},{"start":5513.422,"end":5533.57,"text":"那現在呢我們要有一個就問市長了齁因為他地上全宅我又不就多多介紹地上全宅土地是國家的興建之後他在地上全的期限內這個純粹的租屋是可以交易的市長是不是這樣子他跟社宅是不是不太一樣包委員這部分的業務因為不是我OK那我們就問市長是"},{"start":5536.621,"end":5562.842,"text":"是這樣沒錯吧這個地上權財跟社財社財是用租賃的不能轉售但是地上權財沒有土地它不擁有土地它是土地上的建物它擁有它的所有權一定年限的所有權可以交易嘛 是不是新加坡是不是這樣子地上權是可以交易的是不是新加坡的長屋就是這樣的一個地上權財主屋是這樣邏輯那主屋我們來看一下地上權財的缺點是什麼它不能繼承"},{"start":5563.502,"end":5589.905,"text":"因為時間到他就被收回了所以一般來講我們現在國內沒有繼承考量的戶數包括我們看到15歲以上未婚人口婚前有自用住宅的未婚人口比例我們這樣算一算其實推估國內沒有繼承需要的住屋需求大概有高達超過500萬戶往下看所以說如果說沒有繼承考量的部分民眾會偏好地上全宅"},{"start":5592.159,"end":5615.61,"text":"因為價格便宜嘛不用含土地成本報告委員我們基本上對於相關土地的住宅的需求我們會討論各種方式來協助這個社會的需要但是我們要觀察這個社會的需求那目前內政部所主導的政策基本上我們還是希望透過出租的方式包括我們的直接興建包括我們的包租代管"},{"start":5615.93,"end":5616.15,"text":"新建地下"},{"start":5632.657,"end":5651.522,"text":"地上全的住宅我們來看一看假設一棟房子地上15樓地下4樓1、2樓地上的可以做店鋪地下4樓可以做車位這個部分很適合來作為新建者他不把它賣掉把它用來做營利使用但是上面的3樓到15樓可以用地上全的方式來出售請問市長你覺得這樣的地上全宅未來是不是能夠透過地下的車位跟店面"},{"start":5662.104,"end":5685.322,"text":"來回收他的新建成本我想這個基本上我們會再進行研議那這些相關的議題比較複雜啦所以我們會基於本以提供國人合理安全的住宅我們會去做一些相關的思考好往下看那我們來看一下新青安的目前呢合帶了五萬七千多戶啊撥出的貸款額度高達四千兩百多億利率的補貼是0.5%0.5%每年的支出要二十億"},{"start":5689.147,"end":5708.423,"text":"如果說我們今天用地上全宅來提高這個房屋的供給不是用一個利息補貼的方式讓民眾需要的年輕人去市面上購買已經新建好的宅我們來看一下它會有什麼結果往下看所以如果政府釋出地上全宅那麼能不能也能夠滿足部分對社會住宅的需求?次長你覺得呢?"},{"start":5709.296,"end":5730.503,"text":"我們會對所有可能的方式我們都會進行研議我們的目的就如同委員講的我們要使著住者有齊屋讓年輕人負擔得起好我們來看一下其實剛剛那個圖往下看就這個圖再往下看我們去射算一下啦如果把剛才那個地下4層樓地上15層樓他設定地下車位跟店鋪以不動產正確方式來經營的話"},{"start":5733.404,"end":5733.584,"text":"主席"},{"start":5751.345,"end":5768.676,"text":"以剛剛我舉的這個例子地上全宅目前以財政部持有的共有土地如果選擇一部分除了蓋社宅之外也來興辦這樣子的一個地上全宅您覺得可不可以提高我們對於民眾尤其是年輕人他需要的住屋的需求"},{"start":5770.99,"end":5786.648,"text":"報告委員目前呢財政部的國產署的確有在辦理相關有關地上全住宅的一些標案有在標了是不是有在辦理但實際的情形呢我沒有辦法來那後半段那如果以剛剛的例子為例未來在畜餐的方式"},{"start":5787.611,"end":5806.267,"text":"以政府來興辦底下的這有營利能力的車位也好、店鋪也好他來做這樣的不動產、證券化的方式是不是可以來透過民間的資金來幫助政府也不用用公務員的方式就可以用基金的方式來興辦地上全宅?您覺得有沒有這個可能?"},{"start":5807.213,"end":5829.801,"text":"報告委員以出產法裡面所規範的公共建設是將社會住宅納為公共建設的其中一個類別那有沒有包括地上全宅這部分其實就沒有涉及地上全的問題因為社會住宅本身它的用地就是國有地我知道社會住宅地上全宅會不會未來納入社會住宅的一種類型"},{"start":5833.558,"end":5849.703,"text":"社會住宅我們都說用租的啦,地上權財是賣的啦所以這部分可能要再討論一下,因為一個是用標誅設定地上權來做的,一個是用出餐法來做的那出餐法未來也可能把地上權財納入到出餐的範圍,可能嗎?"},{"start":5851.592,"end":5867.127,"text":"我們可以來討論看看那如果用不動產證券方式來籌募資金你覺得可行嗎?實際上我們也跟金管會一直在討論這一塊目前的投信投顧法也是希望來推動用REITs用REITs的方式來處理是沒有錯謝謝來請教次長"},{"start":5869.485,"end":5886.599,"text":"那我知道次長你們在內政部是主管住屋的需求今天我們在談的這個題目呢怎麼樣透過公私合力的一個合作模式來滿足我們除了除了由政府出面來興建之外我們也可以引薦民間的力量來滿足人民的需求是不是這樣"},{"start":5887.599,"end":5912.636,"text":"那你覺得剛剛我所舉的這個例子你願不願意拿回去評估把地上全宅也並同社宅納入我們未來政府協助民間獲取租屋的一種模式跟委員報告基本上社宅的政策還是主要還是以三大項為主就是說我們直接興建報租代管跟租金補貼我們希望透過租金補貼方式先協助年輕人那直接興建這是一個項目嗎"},{"start":5913.797,"end":5934.607,"text":"那至於委員所提到的這個那個就是說地上全宅的部分我們會來做進一步的研擬因為剛才財政部也表示說這是一個有可能在進行的方式那我們來思考一下就是說這樣的方式能不能在一定程度上增加供給量透過增加供給量的方式給予大家更多的選擇"},{"start":5935.287,"end":5961.408,"text":"那你知不知此未來類似政府來新辦地上全財類似他需要的資金融資的方式也支持未來金管會將不動產證券化REIT的方式把這樣的一個地上全財也納入到這個公建的範圍你知不知此這個跟部長跟委員報告就是說這個部分我們需要再做研議討論因為REIT是真的涉及到比較廣泛的事情那他有盈利的問題"},{"start":5962.728,"end":5985.203,"text":"那市長呢你覺得未來如果在出餐的部分我們把這樣內政部把這樣的一個住屋的供給的模式類似像社會住宅的地上全台也納入來作為政府公建出餐的一部分你會不會支持我們很樂觀其成能夠來加速這個興建好那市長那就拜託你雖然今天是司法法制委員會我也不曉得今天為什麼在司法法制委員會討論這個題目"},{"start":5986.264,"end":6011.116,"text":"但是我如果在財政委員會這個題目呢我就很理直氣壯請內政部可不可以雖然今天在司法法委員會你承諾政府來出土地新建地上全宅及地上全宅的車位、店面以不動產證據的方式開放公私合作營運的可行性很具體喔講的方法都很具體可不可以做一個評估交給本席好,我們內政部來研究評估那再向委員做出租命報告,謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝三位"},{"start":6015.264,"end":6016.024,"text":"我們先休息一分鐘"},{"start":6032.54,"end":6058.794,"text":"我會在那邊請請我會衝著你接下來衝到我那邊來找你後來只能待兩分鐘只要我問你兩分鐘就只有我問你兩分鐘我也只能待兩分鐘過去就過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去"},{"start":6064.787,"end":6075.691,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6090.413,"end":6108.128,"text":"那那個因為部長人有一點不舒服那我們就我想要先請部長回去休息那接下來我們就是由長賜來代理部長下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝昭偉 邀請我們內政部我們董次長"},{"start":6119.639,"end":6121.039,"text":"麻煩市長市長幾個問題來請教不敢這個最近整個太平洋高壓這個是太強了台灣就像一顆番薯一樣我看我們沒有吹冷氣真的是不行的天氣熱在室內自然就會去開冷氣我從2022年的時候我多次針對這整個租屋主的電費的部分"},{"start":6147.786,"end":6157.275,"text":"來向我們內政部還有台電經濟部提出質詢後來我們內政部也在整個租屋的租賃定型化契約應記載跟不得記載事項裡面有去訂定每度的電費不得收取超過電費所定當月台電當月電價最高的級距的每度金額但是"},{"start":6169.266,"end":6178.87,"text":"我們看到很多房東他現在還是會用不超過夏季電費的金額一度比如說五塊、六塊去超收叫做變相在賺這個價差那後來我要求台電就在這個帳單上加注同期的平均金額我也一直在呼籲我們內政部就在這個定型化契約裡面應該去記載來保障租客的一個繳交實際的電費的一個權益那上個月底的時候我有看到內政部宣布說"},{"start":6198.658,"end":6214.929,"text":"租屋電費到7月中旬要上路這個部分要上路那新制的方向是怎麼樣那第二個是如果房東他還是不配合那租客有什麼樣的一個管道來提供給他們做一個協助請次長"},{"start":6215.669,"end":6232.623,"text":"好,謝謝委員垂詢那有關於那個電費的部分我們在新的定型化企業裡面經過行政院審核通過之後我們已經在禮拜一7月8號我們對外公告那公告這過程裡面如果大家沒有任何的疑議我們會在7月15號上路"},{"start":6233.644,"end":6258.96,"text":"在上路的同時我們就會把相關的懶人包還有新型的定型化契約都放進去新型定型化契約裡面就如同委員所垂詢的我們會把電價的需求狀況我們就明定在裡面那房客跟房東在訂約的時候他的每度的電價還有平均單價就是要依照台電所公布的這些相關的範疇裡面去制定而不得超過如果超過了我們會依據小寶法的規範"},{"start":6260.601,"end":6264.002,"text":"還有請我們國庫署今天副署長也有到場我另外一個問題我就延續剛剛其他委員的一個問題來請教兩位就是說"},{"start":6282.881,"end":6300.092,"text":"我們現在政府整個清安的一個政策他其實就是想讓政府的美意就讓年輕人可以買得起房子那現在我們公股銀行總共撥貸40萬2千戶我請教兩位小不小的大約知道這個金額有多大大約"},{"start":6306.025,"end":6325.378,"text":"報告委員您指的是目前為止累積波帶的金額嗎?對就是如果是40多萬戶的話波帶的金額大概是1.9兆1.9兆這個其實是一個很高的數字1.9兆其實我相信最主要這樣的一個目的就是政府要讓年輕人買得起房子那從去年2023年房屋買賣移轉的動數30.6萬棟是4年來的算新低"},{"start":6335.284,"end":6361.404,"text":"算新低但這個數字裡面其實是暗藏玄機從2023年的下半年一轉比較起來跟比上半年增加的約21%那為什麼會在下半年增加兩位就很清楚了嘛就是我們政府推出了這個慶安的一個政策他同時在今年的五月份的房屋交易動數達到兩萬六千多棟是近十年的新高"},{"start":6362.845,"end":6367.79,"text":"我看財政部的一個最新的一個統計就是新清安的單月撥貸的一個戶數就高達了將近9000戶就8000多戶那平均每戶撥貸金額來到768萬元那剛剛副署長談到的就是說公庫銀行總共撥貸的40萬2000戶裡面撥貸的總金額來到1.8兆"},{"start":6385.669,"end":6389.37,"text":"那同時今年5月交易動勢這2萬6千棟10年來的新高那數據也呈現得很明顯就整個新安的一個政策新清安的一個政策讓房屋市場交易熱絡了起來熱絡不是壞事喔熱絡本身倒不反對喔但是呢對這些新清安政策的人似乎大家都是以自助為目的"},{"start":6412.618,"end":6417.364,"text":"那這也其實也是證明了就是大家買房子也變得容易了可是我必須要提出來就是說假設"},{"start":6420.407,"end":6444.41,"text":"我一個中古屋啊我今天開價兩千萬那如果我投資客要買的話我會向下去斡旋嘛一定會是這樣子嘛我有一定的一個利潤嘛那可是呢最高可能我認為說我這個投資客我認為一千九我至少要賺個一百萬那超過了他就選擇這個比例就太少了就不買了但同樣如果是兩千萬年輕人我們有新清安政策出來以後"},{"start":6445.353,"end":6446.894,"text":"對於整個政策影響整體的方式跟內政部這邊你們有什麼看法?"},{"start":6475.323,"end":6490.391,"text":"謝謝委員槌詢那跟委員報告有關於房市的問題那麼本部的立場一向是就是說我們要提供足夠的住宅讓那個年輕人能夠買得起所以在那個會議裡面我們就是提出說相關的貸款"},{"start":6491.391,"end":6491.611,"text":"我相信"},{"start":6519.858,"end":6534.48,"text":"大多數人認為這個政策是對的啦政策當然就是對的啦但是我們也很擔心就是說因為這個新金安的政策讓這個漲幅趨緩了皇室又去節節的一個飆高我們擔心的是這個尤其這個銀行不是在發錢欸"},{"start":6535.601,"end":6546.79,"text":"本金要還對不對所以我的意思就是說我希望我們內政部跟財政部要特別去留意尤其是在利用這個新青安的一個轉租或人頭戶的一個違規借款戶你到了7月5號你盤點出來超風險的案件大約是1000戶那你這1000戶裡面主要是高機率是人頭戶的借款戶或者以及確定違規的借款戶我說想進一步來請教副署長就是說"},{"start":6561.141,"end":6566.344,"text":"有什麼樣的態樣或是行為才會被列入這疑似違規或者人頭戶?是,謝謝委員垂詢那我這邊報告就是說新青安施行到現在那就誠如剛剛委員提到的其實青安的目的是要協助無自由住宅的民眾能夠購屋成家"},{"start":6584.215,"end":6601.48,"text":"那這個其實是利益很良善的一個政策那至於就是說最近可能大家會在討論說有可能有一些是人頭戶或者是有一些是申請了清安之後再去轉租的那這個部分我們現在已經也著手在處理了就是說我們會請各個函庫在受理的時候除了要落實他的這個"},{"start":6607.202,"end":6609.984,"text":"貸款人相關的收支的狀況都是在貸錢的時候必須要納入一個核貸時候的考量另外就是要強化貸後的管理包含貸後相關資金用途的積查"},{"start":6626.556,"end":6653.064,"text":"那再來就是說我們從6月27號之後有要求就是必須要做一個自住的一個切結書那另外就是有現代一次的這樣子的一個方式那這些努力其實都是希望就是回到這個政策的初衷就是讓這個沒有自有住宅的民眾能夠自住然後來申請這樣子的貸款那"},{"start":6653.784,"end":6675.654,"text":"我最主要是要提出提醒啦你像比如說啊你說屬於比較高的一個風險的你說第三人去繳交這個房貸其中比如說第三人有可能就是父母啊有可能是兄弟姊妹啊那這一些可能提出證明都很容易就不會被列入下一階段的高風險的案件但是有一部分高風險提出的解釋認為說我的兄弟姊妹幫忙的啦或是我的未婚啦"},{"start":6679.355,"end":6679.415,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6700.046,"end":6714.86,"text":"可是呢他如果是多銀行呢我分別在不同的銀行啊你們你們這個各銀行之間的一個個資到底有沒有互通那這類案件我請問那個次長或者是副署長這些案件你們怎麼去處理"},{"start":6716.732,"end":6716.912,"text":"這個政策齁"},{"start":6744.494,"end":6744.514,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":6775.538,"end":6803.796,"text":"好 謝謝那下一位我們請羅志強委員那待會在羅志強委員詢答完畢後我們休息5分鐘有請法務部、內政部、財政部麻煩法務部、內政部、財政部我也好"},{"start":6805.511,"end":6818.439,"text":"現在請教黃次長部長身體還好吧身體不舒服先離開請他多多照顧身體我想請教一下那就請教次長"},{"start":6819.727,"end":6839.923,"text":"昨天我在總質詢的時候我有肯定我們政部長說上任後這個封鄉7年鄭文燦所涉及的弊案檢方終於有行動了那但是我還是要請教次長為何發生在2017年的這個土地開發弊案拖了7年才辦"},{"start":6841.816,"end":6859.465,"text":"跟委員報告,他這個案子如果,我也是去報宅啦,他其實是7年來他有一些偵辦的歷程,不是說7年後才突然偵辦好,來,我來看看齁,你說的齁,來看陶議員,你知道陶議員的地方法院第一次裁定鄭文燦交保你知道他怎麼講嗎?"},{"start":6861.308,"end":6876.198,"text":"他說本案案發時間距今已長達7年相關監聽譯文收證照片已詳如卷內所示任務羈押之必要所以換言之他覺得證據很夠了啦也不用再去羈押他去取證了啦"},{"start":6877.595,"end":6893.173,"text":"結果這個案子在法院認為這樣已經很夠的案子就在法務部就在檢察官那邊躺了7年我想請問你監聽議員收證照片早就有了那過去7年有沒有人在包庇押案"},{"start":6895.063,"end":6908.528,"text":"各位報告,這個個案上我沒有辦法回答這個問題,個案上的問題你當然不知道啊,對你不知道啊外界有很多懷疑是不是吃案包庇押案嘛,這你應該有看到報導嘛外界有懷疑,不是你啦,我講外界啦"},{"start":6909.304,"end":6931.552,"text":"外界有在質疑,但是也請委員給外界要相信甲斑的偵辦哥我相信你,我也相信鄭明謙,因為中午他辦了但是你叫外界要相信,抱歉我沒辦法相信嘛我舉幾個例子跟你就教一下,我怎麼相信啊你知道這個鄭文燦的這個所謂的土地弊案發生在哪一任部長的任內,被發現了?哪一任?這應該答得出來吧"},{"start":6937.062,"end":6953.325,"text":"因為七年前他可能有橫跨部長交接的時間哪個部長嘛講出來嘛客觀上他我們前任部長是蔡部長再前任是邱部長就邱泰山嘛邱泰山之前是當鄭文燦的什麼職位副市長啊那邱泰山你知道他這個從政最光輝亮眼的司法政績是什麼可以告訴大家"},{"start":6966.462,"end":6982.294,"text":"你知道他政績是什麼嗎他最有功勳對國家貢獻最大一件事情就是他跟這個陶檢的檢察長對不對彭坤業去施壓檢察官這是被認證的他因此下台還記不記得這件事情他那時候那個國安會執委因此下台"},{"start":6995.459,"end":7019.25,"text":"後來檢察院彈劾是不成立的不成立他下台民進黨認證然後馬上高山這個陸委會主委我要告訴我們次長不是說今天我不信任檢察官我們很信任檢察官啊就像我們信任我們的吳宗憲、昭緯一樣檢察官很辛苦啊"},{"start":7020.387,"end":7037.573,"text":"可是今天就有一些把手伸進檢查體系裡面去押案去施案的一些行政首長啊今天為什麼今天會質疑說7年前的案子拖到現在當時部長邱泰山你信不信任他你相信他嗎"},{"start":7042.034,"end":7069.419,"text":"我幫你回答你不能回答你不是他啦對不對至少我不相信他我再講第二件事情為什麼對檢察官這個很辛苦覺得他承受很大的壓力你知道民進黨執政還有一個非常有名的施壓檢察官的例子這施壓者叫做高永成你總聽過吧目前的檢察委員對不對這位監委阿的奉公委員最大的一宗就是為了幫段宜康解套"},{"start":7070.666,"end":7087.12,"text":"去恐嚇承辦案件的檢察官這是有事實的喔議員都出來喔你覺得這樣的一個監委他去施壓檢察官你覺得檢察官辛苦不辛苦檢察官辛苦不辛苦檢察官在每個領域上工作上都很辛苦都很辛苦還遇到這一種"},{"start":7098.015,"end":7103.657,"text":"遇到這種監察委員還連任監委嘞所以今天我為什麼肯定鄭明謙我肯定賴清德阿壓了七年的案子終於辦了阿封了七年終於辦了阿一半就辦大阿哥鄭文燦阿很好阿"},{"start":7119.534,"end":7136.798,"text":"但是抱歉啊,你們這辦下去的狀況,我也稍微有點擔心啦,你擔不擔心辦案的狀況?擔不擔心?呃,不會,我相信我們的檢察官。你很相信,我相信檢察官,但是我很擔心,很擔心幾件事情,第一個,現在檢察官有沒有壓力,請問?陳辦檢察官有沒有壓力?"},{"start":7141.878,"end":7163.527,"text":"我告訴你他現在壓力很大我已經看到很多的一些綠媒在開始修理他了有沒有看到檢討他私生活開始形容他是一個多麼糟糕的人一貫的方式啊今天敢站出來辦案的檢察官就用媒體修理他啦次長你願不願意當我們成案檢察官的後盾"},{"start":7164.756,"end":7187.584,"text":"願不願意我覺得任何首長任何的行政部門的這個如果是法務部的話他當然都會是一個紀念檢察官的最後的一個支持的後盾對啊謝謝你啊願意當檢察官的後盾第二個你知道過去縣市首長被辦這個弊案齁疑似弊案涉入一些案件齁很多嘛對不對"},{"start":7188.715,"end":7214.712,"text":"在野黨的監事首長包括高鴻安、楊文科還有包括林志廟我看到檢察官辦案很認真你知道怎麼個認真法兵分18路、兵分28路、兵分38路逢小出級全部搜索查光光、扣光光你現在監聽跟跟監所產行的證據跟搜索能夠收到、扣到的直接物證不太一樣吧對不對哪一個證據強度強"},{"start":7217.93,"end":7218.731,"text":"哪一個證據強度強請問吧 市長 這你應該答得出來吧"},{"start":7225.201,"end":7250.027,"text":"各位報告那如果形式上觀察當然我意思是說強制力對物的強制力當然是你指的當然是指搜索的可能性搜集到證據的可能性比較少一點對啊只是我們但是這個個案還是不一樣當然我知道個案但一般來說就是物的強制力搜索很強啊為什麼今天丁兵分十八路收證啊所以我很擔心你們後續辦案不是沒有原因的請問鄭文燦搜索了沒有搜索了沒有"},{"start":7254.389,"end":7279.625,"text":"七年如如不動該滅的政也滅了 該篡的共也篡了啦七年漫漫長路啦 連壓都不能壓這個叫做民進黨涉案縣市首長的特權列車啊我為什麼擔心啊 我怕就算將來辦案下去你照你現在的偵辦的一個偵查的強度跟其他辦在野黨的偵查強度明顯不同嘛"},{"start":7281.209,"end":7301.512,"text":"你現在開了第一槍我很怕一件事情我跟次長講我很擔心今天這一槍打在鄭文燦身上你本來是避暗的一槍避命以為啦結果拿的是嗶嗶槍啦打他手痛一下了警告他一下說不要再想大衛了變成政治鬥爭我不希望啦你也不希望吧"},{"start":7302.984,"end":7305.145,"text":"所以今天為什麼我昨天總質詢就肯定部長原因是什麼"},{"start":7327.626,"end":7340.645,"text":"這案子當然不是部長辦的嘛 對不對也不是次長你辦的嘛可是至少你們做了一件事情嘛你們沒有押案嘛你們押案吧 對不對你們沒有押案嘛當然嘛你光這件事情救民族珍貴啦"},{"start":7342.23,"end":7367.548,"text":"但是壓力要頂住要能夠當檢察官的後盾要頂住這個壓力這才是今天我非常關切的一個問題所以要請今天我們的檢察機關真的好好加油一下然後能夠抗住這個政治的壓力也希望我們的部長跟次長能夠擔當我們的檢察官的後盾現在檢察官已經開始被清算了抱歉我看到有些報導開始對他補力但是拜託"},{"start":7371.923,"end":7373.163,"text":"好 謝謝羅委員 那我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":7409.52,"end":7412.402,"text":"我現在去憲法法庭,他們11點要集合"},{"start":7710.205,"end":7736.502,"text":"好 現在繼續開會 請陳委員、俊宇進行詢答好 謝謝主席羅委員 那我們請財政部的理事長好 請財政部"},{"start":7741.993,"end":7768.297,"text":"市長早委員好我們今天要討論的是有關公私部門合作營運模式在法制上爭議的這個探究和改善那我想因為公部門和私部門合作的模式和範圍都相當的多元及廣泛所以我應該就這個我們促進民間參與公共建設法也就是這個促參法的內容來做討論那由於我們政府在"},{"start":7769.496,"end":7791.387,"text":"財政和經營能力有所極限的情況之下所以當地方有重大的公共建設還有相關的議題的時候我們都希望能夠透過民間的力量來投資參與除了減輕政府財政上的負擔也期待能夠提升建設還有營運的效能來滿足社會"},{"start":7796.129,"end":7820.461,"text":"大眾對於公共建設的需求我們從這個畜産法第3條的內容來看法規上所適用有關這個公共建設的範圍包括了交通還有這個環境、農業、醫療、文教等等幾乎涵蓋民眾的日常生活那公共利益上影響的層面甚廣所以在管控的這個措施上我想還是必須要謹慎"},{"start":7821.603,"end":7826.478,"text":"所以第一個想要請教的是財政部在促參法第5條第二項當中"},{"start":7828.083,"end":7857.357,"text":"有關這個主辦機關的這個規定那該條文的內容規範的主辦的這個機關指的是辦理這個民間參與公共建設相關業務的機關在中央當然是我們目的事業主管機關在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市則由縣市政府作為主辦的機關對於中央和地方政府之間我想就叫的是地方政府在辦理促參案的時候"},{"start":7857.737,"end":7872.904,"text":"都是自行辦理再報備給我們財政部就好了嗎還是說有什麼這個規模或類別的這個促參案需要由中央政府機關另外再來做審核"},{"start":7873.644,"end":7902.668,"text":"那這方面有沒有相關的這個規定是,謝謝委員的指教那有關那個初參法的規定財政部是擔任初參法的法令的主管機關是那各個其他的機關是依據他的任務跟需求那在中央包括各部會及所屬機關那在地方政府包括直轄市縣市政府這些都可以依據他們的公共建設的需求來辦理那並不需要說"},{"start":7903.749,"end":7904.389,"text":"大概的一個分工是這樣子"},{"start":7921.171,"end":7943.229,"text":"因為我們看到有一些促參的案件他履約的時間可能長達30年到50年當時間一拉長的情況之下產生的爭議有可能也會提升甚至也會影響到服務的品質對於這個案件履約的設定的期限也是由主辦的機關和民間機構自行決定的嗎"},{"start":7946.978,"end":7971.145,"text":"是的 一般來講我們初參法的這個採購可以分成政府來規劃完成之後來發包那另外一種是由民間自行提出規劃案之後向主辦機關來申請那不管是哪一種方式其實契約裡面都會按照我們初參法的規定每一年還有他們需要的時間來辦理所謂的履約的營運績效評定"},{"start":7973.867,"end":7993.379,"text":"這個營運績效評定就會就民間機構他們在過去一年或是固定的時間內他到底他的履約的品質如何進行一些評定那當然如果有一些瑕疵或缺失的部分當然都可以要求來改善那如果表現良好的也會有一個叫優先訂約的機制"},{"start":7995.201,"end":8008.259,"text":"讓這個民間機構來繼續的來一定時間內再來履約所以他的機制是這樣的一個安排市長我想請教一下那個履約時間的訂定的認定標準他有沒有一個基本的條件"},{"start":8009.716,"end":8034.903,"text":"基本上並沒有一定的規範但是主要的就是透過財務試算因為出差案件希望民間來投資那民間的投資他會要求有一定程度的獲利所以在每個個案的情況下他會依據他的收支的一個情況去評估他的財務的可行性也就是說民間的投報率是不是有達到"},{"start":8035.643,"end":8057.073,"text":"那在這個投報率的這個要求底下呢才會去訂定他的履約的期限好那另外一方面就是履約時間過短可能會招商困難但履約的時間設定過長的話對公部門來說也會失去調整的一個彈性進而會這個對於服務的品質也難以把關"},{"start":8057.853,"end":8086.174,"text":"那這方面我們應該要如何來權衡?是的我想履約期限的長短在契約裡面都有一定的機制在運作譬如說如果太長的這個履約期的話那在一定時間內不管是主辦機關跟民間機構都可以來提出修約那修約的程序由任一方提出之後經過雙方協調或協商之後呢就可以來修正契約的一個內容那來改善這個履約的品質"},{"start":8086.914,"end":8099.829,"text":"好 那我想在討論的這個部分就是我們剛剛所詢問的這個幾個問題那我們也看到過去這個中國就是靠著一帶一路把各國的這個基礎建設進行滲透"},{"start":8102.592,"end":8128.416,"text":"在我們促參法所規範的一個公共建設的範圍包括了這個自來水還有能源醫療甚至是這個包括還有這個鐵路還有港口的建設那其實和普羅大眾的這個民生日常都息息相關其他包括工業商業還有科技的這個設施甚至還有我們新加入的這個數位的建設那我"},{"start":8129.076,"end":8154.111,"text":"我想這些都是我們國家這個核心的技術倘若有這個促參案主辦的這個機關有意或無意的引進中資讓中國的這個勢力滲透到我們眾多的這個基礎建設核心的這個技術那我想請教就是現行的法規對於中資的部分我們是否有足夠的一個量能來管控"},{"start":8155.594,"end":8173.912,"text":"對於外國廠商要參與我們的促餐案他是被允許的但是如果是中資的部分因為他在投資的時候他的資金要進到台灣的時候會有一個資金的一個審議的一個機制是由我們經濟部這邊來進行審查所以中資要滲透進來"},{"start":8174.773,"end":8174.793,"text":"市長﹗"},{"start":8204.855,"end":8221.632,"text":"我們擔心的是假冒成外資的中資企業他有可能是中資投資到外國的廠商然後再投資到台灣的相關的建設工程那對於這方面我們有沒有一個比較好的管控的機制"},{"start":8223.68,"end":8246.942,"text":"這部分會比較複雜但是就實務上在執行因為外國的公司來投標之後他在新建期勢必要跟我們當地的廠商來合作所以並不是那麼容易就是說他可以全盤的來控制整個計畫或是他全盤的掌握所以這部分在實際運作上目前是沒有發現說有這樣的一個情況"},{"start":8247.503,"end":8266.351,"text":"好 我們也希望說這個部分我們持續去了解避免相關的這個疑慮在我們這個相關的這個促參的案件中會有這個中資的現象那另外在我們前置的修法當中也把數位建設納入第三條所規範的公共建設理"},{"start":8267.671,"end":8286.539,"text":"那這讓我們比較好奇的是因為它反映現在許多公共建設並不限於硬體建設也符合現在政府發展的數位治理更是符合各領域發展這個跨域創新所需的這個部分但是數位建設的範疇同樣是五花八門"},{"start":8287.299,"end":8305.925,"text":"那可能涵蓋到群眾的這個部分無遠弗屆我想請教就是目前我們數位建設促參案件辦理的這個成效如何那案件的數量多不多以及在辦理的這個當中我們部會機關與民間機構的合作有沒有遭遇到什麼樣的困難"},{"start":8306.624,"end":8334.529,"text":"是的 謝謝委員那在我們修法的時候把四個公共建設類別把它新增進去那包括我們的綠電還有我們的數位建設那目前數位建設還沒有新的案例但是我們也發現就是說單純的數位建設要來作為公共建設投資不管是硬體或軟體大概都會去跟其他的公共建設類別有做一個結合所以我們現在也在等著"},{"start":8334.949,"end":8349.059,"text":"看數位部或是各地方政府的這些資訊中心他們有沒有這個需求會用這種方式來做這個招商那希望民間來投資目前是沒有一個個案來採用這種方式"},{"start":8350.04,"end":8373.752,"text":"那在數位建設當中不免也會提到的就是這個資安的問題那我也想說在我們數位這個服務中所要考量的因素當然包括大數據雲端數據的內容都要有妥善的一個防護那我想再就教就是對於數位促參案在資安上的保護措施我們是否需要再有更嚴謹的一個這個規範"},{"start":8376.571,"end":8402.633,"text":"目前完全都是按照行政院他要求的這個資安的一個管控的機制不管你是公部門或是私部門都會一體適用所以未來如果數位建設出產案他的這個防範的等級還是一樣的好 那就請我們這個市長這邊我們財政部對於相關的這個規範一定要有一個比較好的一個掌握是的 是的好 以上謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":8416.476,"end":8429.408,"text":"審法會委員改書面質詢審委員博洋審委員博洋審委員博洋林委員失明請林委員失明進行詢答"},{"start":8436.857,"end":8463.927,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請財政部我們的初三師師長師長我想今天我們召委排這個題目有關這個公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議的探究與改善我想我們最近最熱門的有關我們公私部門合作所產生的一個爭議最大的"},{"start":8464.927,"end":8481.25,"text":"最近最大最熱門的議題我想大家都知道就是基隆市政府與大日公司的旅業的一個爭議這個案子一開始是大日公司市政府的停車場的OT案"},{"start":8482.071,"end":8500.139,"text":"一開始是OT案就這個停車場公共建設的OT案後來因為一樓改建二三四樓增建而延伸是否為ROT案的一個爭議那這個案子請問這個司長您是專家那您認為說民間參與公共投資為什麼會發生這種爭議"},{"start":8509.14,"end":8534.448,"text":"報告委員謝謝委員的關心那這個案子呢其實從頭到尾都是OT案並沒有改為ROT那其實在它原先的契約規範裡面是希望民間來投資經營這個地下室的停車場那一樓跟一樓頂部的這個可以作為商場使用呢它是叫做附屬事業所以這個在原來的契約裡面都有明定"},{"start":8535.228,"end":8550.619,"text":"那因為在契約裡面也明定就是甲方交付的這個資產如果乙方認為有需要改善的時候那可以提出這個改善計畫金甲方來同意這個我大概了解了其實我現在一個很好奇的點就是說"},{"start":8551.48,"end":8568.979,"text":"基隆市政府當初OT案,然後就你剛才提到的所謂的一樓商場以及二到四樓的增建,這個案子你認為是屬於附屬事業的一個,跟市府跟這個當地公司的雙方的一個契約的一個約定?"},{"start":8570.117,"end":8585.6,"text":"但是就是說當初我看市府那個當時的市府他好像猶豫說要把它改成ROT案他好像有這個意思所以我要請教你當初他們在做這個契約的一個研議的時候去做這樣一個變更的時候把ROT案"},{"start":8586.081,"end":8605.482,"text":"然後又再變更說就這個你剛才講的附屬事業的部分可以去把它變更為由他來做一個改建、增建這樣子的他們雙方又簽了一個另外的一個契約變更的一個契約當初有沒有請教過財政部相關意願在這個研議的過程中變更的過程中"},{"start":8606.242,"end":8623.239,"text":"我記得當時105年的時候曾經有來跟我們來請示說這樣子是不是適當財政部但是我們檢視的整個合約其實它並不是改成ROT案它還是在原來的契約機制裡面還是按照OT的一個規範"},{"start":8625.741,"end":8640.151,"text":"所以財政部給他的答案是說這個案子你們不認為說這個是改善OT案但是你們是不是認同說同意他就說那你可以依照這個OT案你可以就這附屬事業你們可以做另外的一個約定"},{"start":8642.252,"end":8670.398,"text":"這部分因為會是一旦簽約之後就按照契約的條文去履約基本上我們不會介入那很清楚的是在契約裡面有明定這樣的機制所以包括基隆市政府跟大日公司他們都是按照這樣的機制所以這樣做沒有違反這個初餐條例目前看起來是沒有的所以他們另外的變更契約的約定因為他在原來的契約裡面就有約定可以這樣子去執行"},{"start":8672.564,"end":8697.295,"text":"他不是變更契約的內容嗎?沒有,他沒有變更契約內容原契約就是有這樣的一個程序那我看一下法院判決的事實我想這個都是公開的內容基隆地安法院就這個案子已經有相關的判決我看判決理由第二點他認定說一、細增會議記錄及被告提出的被告就是基隆市政府提出的細增變更營運計畫書"},{"start":8699.676,"end":8723.185,"text":"逐漸原告也就是大日公司在細增105年的委託營運企業期間原申請改建東岸停車場一樓並拆除二樓原建物增建商場事經兩兆合議提升開發規模原告就是大日公司來提出規劃增建二樓到四樓商場的細增計畫書"},{"start":8725.726,"end":8744.638,"text":"也就是說從這個判決裡面看出來當時他們是已經做他們的營運計畫書已經有做變更他們要提升開發的一個規模所以在這種情況之下我們不禁想說奇怪當初如果他有請教我們財政部出差司的話那奇怪這種變更營運計畫書難道不是把原來的就是OTI已經變更為ROTI嗎"},{"start":8751.789,"end":8780.129,"text":"報告委員因為這部分的變更其實他並沒有來請跟財政部這邊請求示意但是就我剛剛有跟您報告在契約裡面他們就約定可以提出改善計畫所以他們是按照契約的條文由以方提出變更經營的這個計畫書的內容然後再去協商他經營的範圍是這個市長我的現在疑問就是這明明他就是改建跟增建現在不是改善"},{"start":8781.169,"end":8799.782,"text":"這很大規模就建築物做一個改變是的那因為他很大規模這個改變呢他改變的部分是叫做附屬事業而不是促參本身的這個主體事業停車場的部分停車場他並沒有做徵修改建的一個作業那主要是附屬事業"},{"start":8801.963,"end":8815.536,"text":"所以我現在對於復屬事業的定義聽起來我想專業的人可能一般民眾聽不懂什麼叫復屬事業那連我們學法律的人都覺得你這個復屬事業這個名詞我都聽得很奇怪明明就是說"},{"start":8817.202,"end":8817.742,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8838.755,"end":8861.208,"text":"大日公司出資來改建東岸停車場一樓及新建二樓至四樓的徵件物．徵徵件物完成後．批為商場由被告也就是西龍市政府取得所有權．且納入徵105年委託營運契約的範圍之內．仍交由原告大日公司營運．事後續約時也將支納"},{"start":8864.17,"end":8887.01,"text":"也將它列入戲徵110年後來又續約5年到期了嘛110年的委託營運契約的委託營運資產也當作他們的一個資產所以那個那個後來NET公司啊他以這個也以那個基隆市政府的名義去申請拆除執照及建造執照所以"},{"start":8887.771,"end":8912.393,"text":"他們雙方系統市政府跟大致公司很明顯的他就是為了擴大被告依促三法第八條擴大市政府依促三法第八條委託營運資產的範圍反正判決是這樣認定的因為他把整個資產已經擴大了而不是你剛才講什麼附屬事業就是把原來營運的標的他擴大了"},{"start":8913.206,"end":8942.646,"text":"原來的這個停車場這棟建物的範圍這個資產擴大把它增加它的一個範圍所以也把它納入他們的契約的裏面所以法院認定說戲徵徵建物的合意並就相關費用的負擔所有權的歸屬徵建後的用途及受託營運的人均一併詳為約定所以判決認定說這個建物的所有權是屬於基隆市政府"},{"start":8943.686,"end":8953.613,"text":"所以雙方現在產生這麼大的一個爭議那當然我想您站在主幹機關的一個立場對於這種履約的爭議啊財政部是否應該介入協調"},{"start":8955.276,"end":8956.116,"text":"所以你當時拒絕他的協調的申請"},{"start":8981.385,"end":9002.344,"text":"因為大日想要申請的是要第二次的優先訂約那優先訂約的這個核准權其實是在基隆市政府那他們當時的判斷就是他們不予同意的所以在這樣的情況下因為我們認為沒有調解上的一個實意所以我們並沒有受理這個案子"},{"start":9003.004,"end":9023.543,"text":"好 那是那個階段那現在這個階段呢 有關於履約爭議因為現在雙方在訴訟我現在比較好奇就是說奇怪 財政部為什麼就這個案子在雙方還沒有訴訟以前主動去告知你公私部門要合作嘛那為什麼你們沒有去告知基隆市政府說這個案子你們是先來我來幫你們先來調解一下"},{"start":9027.815,"end":9042.48,"text":"報告委員如果就時間序來看的話呢這個案子他第一次的7月5年跟第一次的優先定約3年在8年的履約期間其實基隆市政府跟大日並沒有什麼爭議因為他的履約績效從"},{"start":9043.94,"end":9069.386,"text":"他的分數來看都是達到優良良好的但是是在這個做資產的這個移交的部分才產生爭議那這部分因為是屬於這個私權的一個爭議那我們就比較不方便來介入因為他也進入這個司法的程序其實那個市長我的建議其實說不管是後段的履約爭議或中段或前段一開始的履約"},{"start":9071.126,"end":9090.631,"text":"禮約爭議我建議其實財政部還是要積極的介入讓這些公私合作的案子雙方都能夠很周全的完成他們整個禮約的一個的項目否則現在我們看就造成訴訟我覺得某部分我們公部門還是要發揮積極的一個的一個影響力因為法規你在解釋的啊"},{"start":9091.958,"end":9109.593,"text":"所以我是認為說你不能置身事外啦你還是要去做相關的一個有關初選法到底這個案子是屬於什麼一種情況讓雙方了解他的一個法律的相關的一個規定然後希望他們能夠達成條件嘛好的我們會來努力以上好謝謝"},{"start":9115.305,"end":9128.076,"text":"好 那個溫委員小玲她改書面質詢我們現在請葉委員元之葉委員元之葉委員元之那我們請吳委員私邀謝謝"},{"start":9138.191,"end":9150.416,"text":"我們的昭緯好像請志強委員代理那滿可惜我今天其實想跟昭緯做一些意見的交換今天我想對於本屆司法委員會"},{"start":9151.909,"end":9172.712,"text":"的很多會議也到了會期末我要表達一些我的觀察也就是作為立法委員都要自治更何況我們是在司法法制委員會政治力都不應當介入個案不應當影響司法政治力不要干預司法"},{"start":9173.669,"end":9188.284,"text":"那可能從今天上午司法法制委員會的詢答我們看得出來那都針對某些個案來進行很多未審先判或者是政治操作"},{"start":9189.71,"end":9218.035,"text":"又或者帶有要用政治力來影響司法的意圖這個會期以來這不是第一次我們看到在野黨的委員不論是從楊文科案、高洪安案到現在今天鄭文燦案都不斷的利用立法委員的尋答的時間來進行很多影響跟干預司法的作為我認為深表遺憾"},{"start":9219.195,"end":9248.158,"text":"那第二個今天專案報告我大概當立委9年了我第一次質詢我不曉得要請誰上台我也不打算請任何一個部門上台因為我認為交委排的這個案子就像我們國會擴權法案的反質詢一樣定義不清啊今天的專案報告題目到底是要講什麼"},{"start":9249.827,"end":9277.822,"text":"沒有人可以搞清楚沒有人可以清楚的知道召委排案真切的目的但是若以剛剛林思明書記長所垂詢的事項我恍然大悟又是針對某一個地方政府的個案也就是基隆市府東岸廣場的個案想要做一些政治上的操作"},{"start":9279.143,"end":9292.408,"text":"專案報告題目意義定義不明．探討之實行．探討之明來行護航之實．是這樣嗎．我不樂見．也不希望"},{"start":9293.544,"end":9318.216,"text":"好 所以我今天在這裡表示我的立場我也不會請任何一個官員上台好 下一頁就今天的主題是盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探討與改善我們讀過研究所、讀過博士班的人都知道任何一個論文的命題下面會有以什麼什麼個案為例啊"},{"start":9319.406,"end":9342.192,"text":"所以我實在不知道今天交委就這樣一個法制面他想要探討跟釐清的爭議在哪裡如果就法規面有非常清楚的促參的法規可以來依循所以這是不是一個政治命題社會是一個私設形堂呢我不知道我也希望不是好下一頁委員會的職權傻傻分不清嗎"},{"start":9347.554,"end":9370.065,"text":"立法院的相關的八個委員會的分工司法法制很清楚我們對於司法院對於法務部對於人事總處有我們督導的職權如果是要去關心促進民間參與公共建設促參法的規範的主體的機關是財政部這是促參法的明定"},{"start":9371.201,"end":9397.954,"text":"所以說如果是財政部主管的法律那可以去財政委員會來審議所以今天在司法法制委員會到底要審議了解什麼執行的爭議我也真的不了解那吳宗憲召委不在齁我沒有辦法獲得他本人的釐清好下一頁那我試著去理解如果要講促餐"},{"start":9399.13,"end":9417.547,"text":"那,促參這個91年,這90年大修之後,我們確實以新的促參法的法律授權,那在全台灣推動很多不管中央政府或地方政府的促參案件。以91年促參法大修到現在113年統計,全台灣的促參案達到1661件。"},{"start":9423.152,"end":9440.792,"text":"所吸引帶動的民間投資額達到一兆38億元這是我們努力的成果所以我們企圖的用這樣一個法律的賦權來增加政府的稅收來增加民間企業來投入"},{"start":9442.014,"end":9466.765,"text":"然後一起達到政府民間企業三贏的局面這是促餐法讓公共建設以及公共服務可以升級我這裡秀出來的是華山文創還有宜蘭傳譯中心都是我過去在教育文化領域長期會去關心的促餐的相關的案例下一頁"},{"start":9468.69,"end":9475.416,"text":"財政部在促餐法大修之後同年91年也上錄了經過獎司長在場我沒有請您上台經過獎嘛經過獎就是要肯定中央或地方政府促餐的好的時機、成績那如果以2017年經過獎的得獎名單我們來看喔"},{"start":9493.03,"end":9503.695,"text":"有臺大醫院的美食街的促餐案它是優等以梨山賓館的營運也獲得優等然後墾丁賓館的營運也獲得優等而這三個得獎的經過獎的得主都獲得續約的機會因為它是執行良好而且中間的它續約了"},{"start":9519.824,"end":9528.855,"text":"但是呢同一年一起得到金獲獎肯定的也有基隆市東岸立體停車場的這個促餐案當年2017年基隆東岸立體停車場也獲得金獲獎的肯定可是"},{"start":9539.83,"end":9551.914,"text":"其他幾個案得獎得肯定的都續約了但是這樣一個得獎的基隆市東岸立體停車場卻衍生了續約的爭議產生了產權的爭議也進入了執法的爭議非常奇怪明明是執行良好的祝餐的廠商沒有獲得續約的"},{"start":9567.478,"end":9591.306,"text":"合理在法律上他應當有的法律地位反而陷入了非常負面的續約爭議現在還在對簿公堂所以同一屆得獎的命運大不同大家可以想看看基隆市東岸立體停車場的促餐案是獲得財政部經過獎的肯定的今天被抹黑成什麼狀況下一頁"},{"start":9593.888,"end":9617.088,"text":"基隆市東岸停車場的ROT的爭議是ROT的爭議其實這是地方自治的權限啦基隆市府是大有問題當然包括它的執法爭議強行帶警察去侵入這個NET在營運中的空間所以謝國良市長現在是涉強盜罪在偵辦中"},{"start":9620.151,"end":9623.214,"text":"那續約的爭議更如同我剛剛說的他明明是一個被財政部促參評鑑優等他是加等獎結果呢Net被評為優良評鑑依原本的合約精神約廠商可以優先的續約而且Net所提出的廠商簽約的年限更長但是權利金卻比Net低很多我說的是現在謝國良另外"},{"start":9647.034,"end":9647.815,"text":"剛才前一位委員也有請教我們財政部的代表"},{"start":9676.59,"end":9678.972,"text":"其實促參的爭議處理的機制有非常清楚的法律的程序嘛我們促參48條之一"},{"start":9688.393,"end":9711.172,"text":"你的投資契約你可以走協調會去協調履約爭議嘛協調不成再提付仲裁嘛或者是蘇三四十八條之一的第二項也有很清楚的調解的過程這都是現在法律有的機制我不曉得剛剛在野黨的委員請財政部要積極介入你能介入什麼"},{"start":9712.421,"end":9712.601,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":9738.396,"end":9758.734,"text":"如果一個政策的正確會帶來地方大發展大躍進政策正確之下基隆的東岸廣場可以從過去的一個破敗的場域華麗大變身Before and after只要政策正確"},{"start":9760.526,"end":9770.725,"text":"而政權移轉接棒的人也要好好的去用心的來做對的政策"},{"start":9772.008,"end":9787.052,"text":"把一個華麗大變身好不容易讓東岸廣場成為一個市民、企業、觀光客包括基隆市府都是大家分的一個建設案現在淪為執法的爭議、產權的糾紛、司法的訴訟"},{"start":9792.814,"end":9796.355,"text":"最後一頁．既然有委員今天刻意排這個案是劍指個案那我要藉這個機會來杜絕不時的抹黑"},{"start":9813.308,"end":9825.481,"text":"有人說基隆市東岸廣場這件事情大日公司以5050萬的權利金取得東岸的經營權來批判林右昌前市長"},{"start":9826.84,"end":9846.872,"text":"我要替他澄清當年零用窗市場保底可以收到的權利金是5050萬但是謝國良跟微風簽約保底價只有2655萬誰替政府賺錢誰讓政府吃虧比一比就知道"},{"start":9848.462,"end":9873.425,"text":"國民黨在批評大日公司不可以轉租給Net事實是什麼呢在這個個案當中Net就是大日的協力商合約上清清楚楚也是合約上規範可以邀請協力的廠商合作之友不要這樣抹黑依法依合約辦事的林祐昌前市長"},{"start":9875.322,"end":9903.482,"text":"國民黨又在罵內特增加商業面積是增加獲益喔跟大家澄清增加的廣場的面積是公共空間24小時公民可以使用如同為基隆市爭取了一個大公園不是增加商場賺錢獲益的面積而是增加24小時基隆市民都可以使用的公共空間"},{"start":9905.086,"end":9929.199,"text":"不要再抹黑而這個公共空間一樓可以連接到公車站的人行大通廊二樓可以開放式廣場加上數個遮雨棚的穿廊連接三樓還有天空跑道年輕人熱愛聚集的新的場域我要結束了最後30秒謝謝志強委員增建的產權沒有登記嗎"},{"start":9930.799,"end":9952.018,"text":"我要澄清只要謝國良市長照著合約走就都不會有這些爭議但是謝國良要以強盜的行為強行來接管所以呢謝國良現在是強盜案的被告如果不要去搞這些奇奇怪怪的變更採購"},{"start":9954.728,"end":9981.144,"text":"涉及讓條件很不對等的廠商來標得這樣一個珍貴的促參成功的案例都不會有現在的產權爭議都不會有現在的執法爭議所以今天我花一些時間因為我真的是絞盡腦汁很想知道昭緯牌案到底是兼職哪一個個案後來經過釐清追查"},{"start":9982.488,"end":10006.916,"text":"原來是要講這個個案那我也就我的質詢的本務我的職責努力的就這個個案去了解也基於我的了解我必須提出清楚的說明這是我擔任立委9年以來第一次我沒有請任何的官員上台我希望未來的召委排案主題要明確議題要清晰但是"},{"start":10007.876,"end":10031.787,"text":"我還是努力的做一個專業立委應該有的準備謝謝志強委員多給我的時間謝謝辛苦了好謝謝吳世耀委員那我因為吳世耀委員對於今天的主題有意見那我可能還是要說明一下那今天我們的主題是盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善"},{"start":10032.327,"end":10048.806,"text":"那我看剛剛前面很多的委員都針對今天的主題尋答都沒有問題那官員也很認真的上來尋答所以今天要做個說明好那登記委員尋答完畢現在有陳玉珍委員再請求尋答在場如無異議接著請陳玉珍委員進行尋答時間5分鐘"},{"start":10057.22,"end":10076.179,"text":"主席想請教我換我發言你可以留下來聽一下歡迎委員 專業委員 什麼都不懂的委員來留下來聽一下連公私協力都聽不懂 委員這邊還是說明一下就是說 基本上謝謝 不知道怎麼叫公私協力留下來聽一下謝謝吳思堯委員的尊重因為本來按照議事規則基本上"},{"start":10079.322,"end":10087.164,"text":"主席我們這裡會不會提供嘔吐袋啊?司法委員會不是剛剛有人一邊講很噁心的東西一邊說不要介入個案一邊在講什麼基隆市政府的案子當場一直打臉自己我看都很想吐欸那那我想請這個我們財政部次長有出差司有來嘛對"},{"start":10112.353,"end":10138.785,"text":"法務部,因為我剛剛看到法務部的這個內容市長您好,上回在財政部有跟您請教過這一個今天的主題是公私協力就是說公私協力有什麼樣的合作營運的法制模式那因為我們的委員有一些都不了解自己的職權他說看不懂這個題目所以我想說在這裡跟您切磋一下也讓這個吳士堯委員知道立法委員的職權是什麼然後為什麼題目看不懂還可以一直在這邊罵別人"},{"start":10140.846,"end":10167.114,"text":"我們知道像公私協力我剛剛看到這個內政部的這個內政部有寫嘛內政部的報告裡頭寫出有幾種模式嘛什麼BOTR、ROTR但是我發現公私協力裡面有一個很重要的這個就是很重要一點有一個最新的一個做法叫做PPP嘛Public, Private and Partnerships 對不對我們看裡面都沒有是不是因為我們的這個財政部出現在這個推廣的方面比較沒有"},{"start":10168.451,"end":10171.413,"text":"是在111年修法的時候我們新增了九支一條那增進了這個叫做政府有償取的公共服務"},{"start":10190.402,"end":10218.514,"text":"主要的概念是除了剛剛講的BOT、BTO、OT等等我們認為說在公私協定裡面如果政府可以付費來取得服務的話這也不是一個好的方法我讓你充分講是因為我發現我們的立法委員其實不只立法委員包括很多部門裡頭的報告裡頭也沒有寫到這一點可見我覺得你們的宣導是不夠的然後立法委員連看題目也看不懂說不知道今天是要討論什麼"},{"start":10220.155,"end":10234.108,"text":"對不對,這個就要討論法制嘛,是不是比如說BOT啊、ROT啊、PPP啊這些各種,或是OT啊各種的這個法制的這種形式上到底在對我們這個政府在獎勵這個民間引進這個出差方面相關的這個的這種投資幫助這個除了政府力量以外,讓民間力量引進來有什麼好的方法"},{"start":10243.877,"end":10262.882,"text":"或者中間有什麼缺失如果可以在法制面做改善的話那民間投資的意願會比較強嘛對吧你說對吧是的對嘛沒錯嘛所以這個題目是定的很好事實上也是很有深度的只是我很遺憾是看到說第一個我們的這個相關的政府部門也不懂有一些新的這一種營運模式嘛剛剛我看到報告裡頭就寫的不詳盡那第二我就看到我們的這個相關即便是我們立法委員一邊在說他不知道今天的題目是什麼"},{"start":10272.284,"end":10272.304,"text":"來 次長"},{"start":10294.148,"end":10315.3,"text":"委員好那剛剛我又聽到委員一直在講說這個有人排這個就是故意就用個案啊什麼政治利益介入你們法務部會接受政治利益介入嗎當然不可以當然不會對不對所以這個委員這樣講事實上是對你們的沒有信心啦或是他一向認為那個法務部都會介入政治個案就是只要委員這樣執行你們就會去介入有這種事嗎"},{"start":10316.824,"end":10326.656,"text":"委員的做法我們當然都尊重但法務部的立場是絕對不尊重絕對不會嘛可是剛剛那個我們民進黨的這個這個黨防幹部公開說你們會受到政治力影響啊會嗎"},{"start":10329.336,"end":10358.434,"text":"這是委員的執行內容不是 我說他執行內容啦對 他自己思想錯誤一定要把東西壓在別人身上這個我們也是沒有辦法嘛 對不對你沒有辦法評論嘛 對不對我沒有辦法評論沒辦法評論嘛 對嘛 因為你也不能贊同嘛 是不是所以這個自己思想不正確然後一直想個案就說別人一直想個案自己心裡想說是不是他們有什麼行政力量可以介入因為心裡有這種想法才會覺得別人在問這些問題就想要介入明明我們的法務部就這麼的剛正不阿根本就不會接受政治力介入 對不對"},{"start":10359.85,"end":10382.711,"text":"本來就不應該這個 本來我們講到辦案就不應該接受這個政治對阿 然後你們本來也就不會嘛 對不對所以我們質詢關心 國會議員關心社會上所矚目的案件不管是社攤的阿 或者這一陣子很重大這個台南市這個槍擊案件造成國人全面性的恐慌阿 這個當然你們是不是應該加強的去查辦嘛 對不對"},{"start":10384.904,"end":10406,"text":"對 這個案本來就是我們 像槍擊這個案子很重大嘛 加強查辦對不對本來我們就會 本來就應該嘛 對然後我們如果這樣去問了 難道就是介入個案嗎我們說你們趕快加強查辦 哇 國人都好恐慌我好多家人住在台南 事實上都覺得很恐怖 是不是應該加強查辦這個個案發生本來講要關天職 是嘛 那我們去質詢你這樣算不算介入個案"},{"start":10407.142,"end":10428.876,"text":"因為已經沒有實體的內容了不算對嘛我們就說你們就是什麼案子什麼案子什麼案子應該是要去釐清趕快查清楚這個是國會議員的職責嘛有的國會議員不懂的職責不專業什麼ROT、BOT還有PPP什麼都不懂公司協力也不懂就上來批評別人我會覺得以後建議這個司法委員會這邊準備那個嘔吐袋啦謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":10433.712,"end":10454.2,"text":"謝謝陳玉珍委員雖然吳宗憲召委他不在因為剛剛有我們司法法制委員會的委員吳思耀委員對今天的主題有意見所以我可能還是要代替他稍微說明一下那今天的主題是盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善"},{"start":10455.44,"end":10470.513,"text":"實際上大家知道就是說基本上就是今天所有在前面質詢的委員們那針對這個主題其實都有進行官員的詢答很顯然這幾個中文字沒有人看不懂啦"},{"start":10471.273,"end":10488.158,"text":"至於說能不能論及個案剛剛我們次長也有特別回答就是說這是立法委員的職權相信相關的部門也不會因為立法委員的質詢受到影響通案是個案的累積所以你任何涉及所謂的"},{"start":10489.978,"end":10516.9,"text":"公私部門的法制爭議的部分那當然不可能不觸及個案嘛所以這有可能是還是要幫吳宗憲委員來說明一下那我們好 那一樣我們現場有那個登記發言委員均已詢答完畢那現有這個葉元之委員再請求詢答在場如無異議這接著請我們葉委員元之進行詢答時間5分鐘"},{"start":10535.629,"end":10538.256,"text":"我請那個法務部跟那個工程會我請法務部工程會"},{"start":10547.137,"end":10572.931,"text":"好部長好還有處長好我有一個問題想要請教一下我非常好奇因為上一次在經濟委員會的時候我詢問農業部長有關於超私跟量財的問題他們是透過續產會的方式去買這批雞蛋然後因為超私跟量財發現一個非常奇怪的狀況就是續產會是跟量財簽約可是卻叫"},{"start":10575.053,"end":10578.438,"text":"續產會付錢給超私那當時我就問農業部說為什麼會出現這個狀況那有沒有去督導續產會可是"},{"start":10585.737,"end":10590.52,"text":"政府不能去查所以他就完全沒有責任然後就直接移送減掉所以今天看到這個題目我也非常好奇就是說"},{"start":10605.73,"end":10619.318,"text":"實際上這個也是一個公私之間的關係嘛公跟私嘛是政府要進這批雞蛋嘛只是透過續產會去處理續產會主要錢也都是來自於政府但續產會他在採購的時候他可以直接繞過採購法"},{"start":10620.979,"end":10643.235,"text":"然後做出這麼奇怪的採購行為然後可以跟A公司簽約卻付錢給B公司然後造成了一些弊端政府完全說跟他無關這個就是減掉問題如果沒有弊案的話或是沒有司法問題的話就跟政府無關我問一下那個部長啊像這樣的一個模式在我們政府的採購是很常見的嗎"},{"start":10646.368,"end":10670.265,"text":"各位報告我是次長那委員您提的是指抄是那個個案嗎對對對這個個案因為台北地檢署他已經分幾個案子在偵辦我問模式我問模式因為我覺得這個模式很奇怪模式的話就涉及到他法務部並不是這個相關的主管機關因為我們今天不是要討論那個公司之間的採購關係那採購的主管機關並不是法務部那是哪一個機關"},{"start":10673.01,"end":10698.926,"text":"是工程會嗎?是工程會OK跟委員報告那在農業部採購雞蛋這個案子因為依照採購法第7條雞蛋是屬於生鮮農業產品不是採購法的適用範圍我知道我這個我知道但是後來他也有一些像冷鏈啊運費啊他是沒有透過採購法嘛然後後來農業部的說法就是說他不符合採購法的我們就不付錢可是實際上這個如果沒有被抓到的話他就是違反採購法"},{"start":10700.37,"end":10708.503,"text":"那我現在問的是說在政府裡面有這樣的採購行為身為採購主管機關你不覺得很奇怪嗎?這合理嗎?"},{"start":10710.102,"end":10738.584,"text":"這個部分我不太理解我的意思 我剛把那個案情都已經敘述一遍但我現在不問個案我是說現在能不能政府有一個機構這個機構呢補助另外一個法人然後由那個法人來進行政府要採購的事項結果非常的寬鬆當這個法人採購的過程當中出現問題然後那個部會可以講說這跟我沒有關係那個就是私人跟私人之間的關係然後他完全沒有督導的責任"},{"start":10739.585,"end":10764.596,"text":"那這難道不是一個規避採購法的行為嗎我跟委員報告依據採購法第4條政府機關補助法人金額達到50%以上或是達到公告金額以上的話那這個法人辦理採購是必須依據採購法的對啊可是問題是那時候農業部就說我那時候問他說那超市跟量採關係他說他沒辦法督導啊他說就送給減掉啊那行政機關在這個過程當中完全沒責任嗎"},{"start":10766.56,"end":10791.528,"text":"報告委員,在超私跟這個是屬於得標廠商跟協力廠商的事情,這個並沒有在採購法的規範範圍內,除非他有違反轉發規定。那個,處長對不對?是。處長齁,你現在一直在講法條嘛,對不對?我們現在就是講說這件事情的不合理之處嘛。那,如果說,這個法條衍生出這樣的不合理之處,我們是不是就要討論這個法條,定定的是否過於寬鬆,或是有沒有漏網之魚嘛?"},{"start":10792.196,"end":10797.741,"text":"對不對 所以我把問題講出來我相信我這樣子講大家都會覺得很奇怪對不對 農業部委託續產會花了大錢給續產會結果續產會"},{"start":10802.824,"end":10802.844,"text":"會不會?"},{"start":10825.405,"end":10845.297,"text":"會不會我講的都是事實喔不是我掰出來的喔你會不會覺得在我們現在政府機關還存在的這樣的採購行為會不會很奇怪你不敢回答就是很奇怪啦因為如果不奇怪你就會說不奇怪了那如果出現這樣的行為是不是我們現在法律訂定上面可能有一些漏洞才會造成這樣的行為有沒有好時間到了"},{"start":10853.018,"end":10878.69,"text":"那...那不然我也不為難你啦可能你也沒有...你也沒有準備啦是不是可以針對我剛剛那個問題就是事後補一份報告給我好不好委員的問題是指超市跟...就是我剛剛那個模式就是超市那個模式然後但是...但是行政機關卻沒有任何的責任然後他都說他依法他都合法的這樣子有沒有很奇怪你給我...你...你補個答案給我啦好不好是好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":10881.595,"end":10908.272,"text":"謝謝次長,謝謝處長所有委員均已發言完畢,詢答結束委員質詢時,要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會委員翁曉琳審發會所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議到此結束,現在散會,謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}