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透過司長自己本身都有答覆相關委員的這樣垂詢的過程裡面我們所得到的這樣的一個答案也就是說從本法實施到現在"},{"start":112.486,"end":133.415,"text":"每一個人都非常清楚將近六年時間那不到一趴不到0.05趴的這樣的不到0.05的這樣的一個簽署的人數到成儒部長所回應委員相關委員的答詢說這個吻合率我不曉得這個吻合率的定義什麼叫吻合率那當然也有其他委員在追尋"},{"start":134.575,"end":156.669,"text":"真正有照當時簽署的AD然後去執行的這個執行率又是幾%我目前為止是沒有聽出任何答案但是部長有特別提到希望這個簽署AD的時候我們希望更嚴謹我們要提高這樣的品質那要提高品質是從ACP就必須要來處理的"},{"start":158.03,"end":166.597,"text":"但剛剛黃委員也有詮詢不過我並沒有聽出司長針對部長所講的所謂的簽署所謂的這個預例醫療的債務諮商的如何提高品質反而我是聽到司長答詢過程裡面是針對如何提高服務的量能包含從醫院的附屬機構婦女之家然後可以外展諸如此類"},{"start":183.269,"end":190.752,"text":"的這個方向去討論嘛對不對所以到底部長講的這個如何提高這個ACP的醫療照護諮商的品質要如何提高我很抱歉我從早上一直聽到現在我並沒有聽到啦這是第一點"},{"start":200.396,"end":222.558,"text":"那第二點 我有沒有聽到所謂的已經簽署的預歷醫療決定書之後它的執行率到底是多少因為我只聽到吻合率是七成嘛那第三點 這是一個不爭的事實我想各位今天所有的委員應該多數啦多數都覺得說這個ACP的諮商的會用希望以後公部門重建保署"},{"start":223.238,"end":226.162,"text":"等等等來做相關的指引那我們從去年的7月已經有做部分的這樣的一個病症的還有病人的指引那今天5月1號又擴大65歲重大疾病等嘛那因為我聽到"},{"start":239.779,"end":257.231,"text":"這樣的一個發展我當然非常樂觀其成也看到蠻欣慰就是衛福部積極要來面對這個事情處理這個事情甚至要把ACP的相關的幾乎從健保裡面擴大相關的這些對象但是問題來了當"},{"start":260.157,"end":286.46,"text":"當我們市長講說每年兩萬多人我們要提高到四萬多人要增加兩萬五千人基本上我當然是支持但你如何去提高你如何去提高因為剛剛市長所講的幾個面向基本上你要有百分之一百五十的成長還是百分之一二五的成長我是覺得市長是不是要講明確一點你的方法"},{"start":287.831,"end":307.919,"text":"這個法律是正確的這個法律往前走的過程裡面它的執行力它的預期目標我們沒有辦法去在時間內達到那我們現在想要快速的去達到那你把設定一年要增加兩萬五個人這個來參與這個醫療的照護諮商的這個人數你如果去達標"},{"start":314.878,"end":327.929,"text":"我希望你可以明確跟委員會說清楚這是第一點第二點你必須要給委員會一個肆意因為剛剛署長講說5月1號開始擴大65歲65歲的重大疾病等那兩類人數就高達180萬還不包含還不包含他原有的在去年開放的給付的對象"},{"start":346.311,"end":367.739,"text":"也不包含身心健康主動要來簽署的主動要諮商加簽署的都不包含我再簡單的比喻說如果180萬照現金每年執行然有做ACP到簽署的這是兩個層次問題啦我們講說ACP就好2萬180萬除以2萬要幾年才可以完成"},{"start":376.789,"end":401.156,"text":"九十年了如果變成四萬五要錢才可以完成四十幾年了不包括去年開始補助的部分不包括健康的主動要來簽署的要來接受要來要諮商的這是第二件事情那第三件事情這不是我說的吧很清楚北一聯講的"},{"start":406.445,"end":419.149,"text":"部長應該很清楚嘛,今天開這個會,我想牧產單位應該提供相關資料給你當病處法開始正式實施的時候,平均啊,要去做諮商的,要掛多久?一到三個月一到三個月我這邊有北藝連的這樣的一個對外的說法,我有這個花蓮慈濟醫院的說法"},{"start":432.466,"end":436.928,"text":"那如果是這個樣子 你如果兩萬變成到四萬五要怎麼解決 要怎麼處理現在姑且都不修法我們知道這個法律的目標方向是正確但是在執行上 執行率就偏低的情況之下你要如果透過行政的作為 透過相關的補助"},{"start":460.443,"end":470.149,"text":"透過你所講的只有擴大一個小的範圍或怎樣如果讓你可以提升這樣的服務量能兼顧到品質今天是因為有這樣的情況所以才有委員主動的來提供應該朝向修法的這樣的一個範疇來做處理"},{"start":484.7,"end":503.406,"text":"當然啦 當然修啊是不是可以可以就一步到位那也到位必啦但是可能有一些原有在執行的過程裡面我們就開始檢視的第幾條第幾條是不是應該有一些修正有一些放寬甚至有一些必須要更嚴謹"},{"start":504.92,"end":532.105,"text":"剛剛黃委員有特別提到如果已經簽了預立醫療決定書到時候病患家屬有意見的情況之下要怎麼處理我坦白講這條文裡面規範得很清楚如果病患本身已經無意識的情況之下就是要照當時病患所簽的醫院人所簽的預立醫療決定書去執行法律有明文規定"},{"start":533.496,"end":546.652,"text":"他可不可以發生在第七款第十四條的第一項裡面的第一款跟第五款因為他可能是默契但是他意識清楚有可能他想要復活他想要變化他想出來的兩個營養他要去改變嘛對我看也有可能啊"},{"start":550.296,"end":575.547,"text":"但是如果他是在第二款的這個第三款的植物人第二款的昏迷不可逆的情況之下他要怎麼去跟你變他要怎麼跟你再還回他的家屬怎麼可以不依照病患當時還是清楚的情況之下簽訂的預立醫療決定書去做任何改變那有可能火力就定在這邊啊"},{"start":580.636,"end":597.529,"text":"所以我現在是今天從早一直聽到現在我覺得到底是大家覺得這些事情是必須要做的那也覺得這個這個遷鎖量是不足的這個好像應該大家都沒有爭議嘛但是我們怎麼擴大這個量能有很多的方式管道"},{"start":603.261,"end":628.876,"text":"除了行政的作為 除了健保 健保署那修法裡面 難道不是也是解決之一嗎對不對 但是你們好像就把修法 馬上就把它關起來這個我覺得不太對吧我個人感覺不太對嘛不然我最後再講一個啦今天衛福部 坦白講就是要做利益眾生的事情嘛"},{"start":629.89,"end":653.805,"text":"對不對,我們要利益什麼益,要利益什麼眾生很多人都提到,臺灣人口結構就是叫做生不如死嘛CBBC會比較少嘛,對於2021現在這樣,也適當啊再來,我們需要善終的病患,如果一直做無效的醫療他就一定叫做生不如死啊,這是另外一種狀況,狀態嘛對不對"},{"start":657.115,"end":683.681,"text":"那今天我們明明知道病出華來整個實施過程裡面就是為了要讓這些病患還是健康的人未來可能遇到這14條的第一款到第一款的其中一款的情況之下都未雨綢繆的面對自己未來的人生的生命的規劃更有尊嚴更能夠善終我們要降低這種無效醫療這也是"},{"start":685.641,"end":699.874,"text":"這也是在利益眾生嘛那也是利益家屬嘛不要到最後讓家屬就剛剛永遠提到的病患本身可能有所還回還是說家屬有很多的意見我們就是要利益眾生讓家屬不要去尊重當時這個病人自主所簽訂的醫療決定書了嘛 對不對"},{"start":711.405,"end":739.601,"text":"這也是在利益啊不管是利益家屬 不管是利益這個病患也是利益在健保署啊 為什麼這麼講我覺得用補助這兩個字實在是實在是太沉重了也不夠專業但我們知道這個法來實施的情況之下就是可以朝向降低所謂的無效醫療嘛降低無效醫療也就等同於叫做降低健保給付嘛"},{"start":740.563,"end":753.682,"text":"降低健保費用嘛有沒有去做過評估雖然一年兩萬多到現在十萬就像部長所講的五謀率就像執行率到底降低了多少呢無效預料"},{"start":755.366,"end":777.831,"text":"來換算我們今天2500到3500的這樣的擴大相關的群組的補助加總起來 加減起來到底還是幾戶無效一人的幾戶大過於我們現在做這些ACP的諮商的費用多過多少 還是少了多少還是我們必須要在幾年內可以把這樣趕過來"},{"start":779.98,"end":787.804,"text":"所以我想為政者基本上開源節流這樣的一個作為跟智慧跟應變這是必要的條件啦所以我們不能一直在說我們要做這件事就給檢報負擔多少給檢報支付多少我們可能不會管理所以我們現在一百八十萬人一個人三千就五十四億"},{"start":803.683,"end":825.053,"text":"你必須要是休止調整,但是問題是你去度薪多少出來,等你一百八十萬人,卡士都要簽嗎?然後醫療決定書也都簽嗎?對不對,好,阿葛先生也真的度到像你講的穩合率或執行率,差不多20%就好,還是20%我們抓到30%,那可以減少多少的無效醫療的費用?"},{"start":827.725,"end":850.558,"text":"不是很清楚啦,我們台灣人平均臥床的時間,這都外界講的,那正確數字是多少?是七年?是八年?是六年?七、八年嘛對不對?七、八年都在那,給他做那個不好的醫療,要花多少錢?多少人?要再花多少錢?加多少人就好喔?但是現在多少人要給他?是要兩千五、三千五的ACP的智商費用"},{"start":852.244,"end":872.123,"text":"所以這個要你們很專業的然後去做這個評估今天在這個委員會我們大家可以好好來討論嘛你們提供出來更精準這個數字嘛好就像ACP我再請教一下ACP育育醫療這個照顧智商算不算一個醫療行為部長我講這麼多你可以先回應我一句話嗎"},{"start":878.855,"end":900.865,"text":"如果諮商應該不屬於醫療行為,但是諮商的內容是在討論醫療行為?是啦,沒有錯嘛,一樣嘛,我今天要去買一個醫療的保險嘛,我今天要去買一個醫療防癌的保險嘛,那我在跟你討論醫療保險,你賣我醫療保險的商品的內容的時候,是不是叫醫療行為?"},{"start":902.642,"end":915.025,"text":"相對是不是在討論未來你可能遇到什麼狀況要接受什麼醫療的時候我這個癌症的還是相關的醫療保險要幾戶嘛所以在諮商的範圍裡面我們要如果講說它叫做醫療行為"},{"start":918.658,"end":923.002,"text":"他在討論醫療,沒有錯啊,他是不是醫療行為?跟保險稍微不一樣啦,譬如我舉個例子譬如說病人說你人工輸液營養有1條嘛,上面是維持生命的治療"},{"start":938.374,"end":955.502,"text":"一定你不說什麼叫做維持生命治療 那就很難了是從壓胸插管打強心劑然後漸漸到要不要用抗生素要不要用那個這些東西說實在的我是花了30年"},{"start":957.003,"end":972.489,"text":"照顧過兩萬個默許病人在安寧病房這三十年來慢慢還是協道的所以的確是相當的深奧啦這個品質是無止境我們要去成長所以討論的這個部分的確是需要有專業人員"},{"start":975.045,"end":1001.461,"text":"來表達然後譬如說人工輸液好了在什麼時候不應該去是不是應該用鼻胃管的是不是應該去開個胃躁揉的或者打部分的營養劑或者是前營養劑這其實都是要針對病人的一個狀況這個我相信在ACP的時候一定會去討論人家病人一定會去問啦問的時候我們要怎麼回答要怎麼簽下去"},{"start":1002.935,"end":1030.061,"text":"主要是這樣啦不對這樣啦齁這個法叫做病人自主決定法嘛對不對好那我們現在補助諮商會的是針對有病症的嘛對不對沒有錯嘛好過去是不給護過去不給護在署長之前是把他認定ACP不是醫療行為所以不給護那現在給護了就叫做醫療行為嘛署長就笑了"},{"start":1031.224,"end":1037.221,"text":"這第一點那第二點我們是針對病患的時候或許部長講這樣是一個範疇那像身體健康的"},{"start":1039.468,"end":1062.557,"text":"我是身體健康的我要做醫療諮商的他還是會問後面那我要勾對不對我要勾我要不要接受同意我到時候不做維持生命治療他一定會問你不管你是健康的一定會問啊是啊 那個是遇到14條第一項裡面的1到5款的情況之下"},{"start":1063.217,"end":1073.721,"text":"在那個當下發生的時候才會有所謂的醫療行為嘛但我在諮商的時候怎麼會有醫療行為所以要有專業的一個要有專業的說明啦是專業的說明就是有提供醫療照護諮商是醫療機構管理辦法第四條嘛講得很清楚嘛對不對"},{"start":1082.404,"end":1100.594,"text":"好,諮商機構應組成育立育療這個照護諮商團隊與像解釋諮商團隊至少包括現在人員嘛第一個醫師一人應具有專科醫師資格嘛對不對第二護理人員一人應具有兩年以上臨床實務經驗嘛第三心理師或社工人員一人應具有兩年以上實務經驗"},{"start":1102.415,"end":1115.246,"text":"但是這個第二條第二項諮商機構的就前項第二款或第三款人員折衣設置第一項人員應完成中央主管公告"},{"start":1116.266,"end":1135.683,"text":"至於醫療照護諮商訓練課程也就是說他還是必須要不管你是醫師不管你是護理師不管你是社卿人員你還是要完成所謂的諮商訓練課程嘛對不對醫師四個小時嘛護理 社工 心理六到十一個小時嘛今天這個當時這個管理辦法"},{"start":1141.943,"end":1154.427,"text":"那個時代定下來的情境嘛好,我們現在都是一樣依照這樣去執行啊沒有錯啊但是不講現狀遇到什麼狀況當北醫連這麼講當花蓮慈濟這麼講的時候當相關的醫院這麼樣的醫療緊繃的情況之下醫師還要來做這些事情"},{"start":1171.209,"end":1177.934,"text":"你覺得現狀對醫師是好對想要去做ACP的對象是好這個大家在討論我們有訂建我們有說一定醫師非做不做不可是現今的狀況掛一個號從開始實施開始實施到1080到現在喔就是平均要去掛的就是一個月等到三個月啊現在5月1號"},{"start":1201.052,"end":1204.333,"text":"署長這邊在支付65歲以上的180萬人當然不可能180萬人馬上做也不可能馬上18萬1萬8就好了你怎麼做下去你做不下去啦"},{"start":1216.974,"end":1238.859,"text":"你絕對做不去嘛你現在擴展以後 其實場地 場域也擴展很大診所也都可以做的嘛診所可以做 我堅持我支持啊 可以啊所以應該是那個場域喔擴展到很大啦 沒錯 你是醫生啦那北京也對不對 全國的醫術國會律師隊 台北市醫術國會律師隊這兩屆立委 又撲書"},{"start":1243.174,"end":1248.817,"text":"你開清掃,我來幫你支撐,對不對?跟你看一個備份,你怎麼辦?我當然會預約時間,譬如說我...預約嘛,對,預約嘛。我預約時間,我可以看望鏡,普通人現在都這樣啦,我可以看望鏡,那預約一段時間,有的是去做居家,預約有的是去刷店,他也可以預約在預約,看兩三個房子,這樣來解決他的可能,因為這個有社區醫療群,"},{"start":1272.85,"end":1274.411,"text":"我覺得部長我們有一起到過日本參觀過"},{"start":1295.55,"end":1322.725,"text":"不只是日本這個都蠻受到他們那個就是日本的那個評鑑制度跟我們不一樣嘛對不對他們那些評鑑師去列舉的就是優良的很棒的這些互惹人性互惹更好的這樣的一個級別的產道機構我們都有去參訪過嘛那也甚至於有美國的這個NGO團體特別到日本去認證這種機構都是Top的啦"},{"start":1325.441,"end":1344.033,"text":"他們的長照機構很多都是多資種一起進入嘛他們在機構裡面可以申請健保幾戶也一併可以處理可以接保險也一併可以來做雙種處理嘛那我就不清楚吧你當然也可以要你自己想到要開放更寬的這個範疇開放到診所那為什麼長照機構不行"},{"start":1348.959,"end":1358.686,"text":"我就不清楚了,長照機構絕對不是像蘇委員所講的外展服務到長照機構外展可以到長照機構嘛對不對你們開宗明義你們答覆我們的公文,答覆我們的報告書裡面你寫到這三個外國我就看不到了,你把第九條和第十四條你把它分成一團"},{"start":1373.561,"end":1401.404,"text":"我不清楚你為什麼要把這種事情混在一塊啊你至始至終坦白講你對金融機關核准之護理機構、長照機構、心理治療所、心理諮商所、社工師事務所或法人的這個提供的預立醫療諮商、照護諮商這是一件事情,就一個句號嘛你在講經一位醫師診斷後末期這是在講第十四條第一項的第一款嘛"},{"start":1406.38,"end":1434.451,"text":"你為什麼要把兩個兩件事情放在一塊我們要解釋的是說過去我們在機構管理這邊透過醫療機構的外展服務然後那像診所端的其實他的相關的設計人員沒有其實可以不用他自己所謂的專任的這件事情所以在目前的制度執行上面其實有他的彈性空間在然後這一次的擴大的部分的話其實我們也希望用這樣子的量能來做一個擴大"},{"start":1435.171,"end":1459.538,"text":"然後我們144這邊的話其實是很多的醫師受完訓之後他其實是怎麼樣去提供這樣服務我們現在看到的落差的弱點是在不敢去提供服務所以我們會有那個輔導團隊來協助提供服務這樣子增加量能的部分我們覺得是增加量能的嘛 對不對對 增加量能市長你現在答覆跟我要做的事情目標是一致嘛"},{"start":1460.539,"end":1481.335,"text":"寬寡上的落差我覺得是還是有啦還是有我尊重啦但是這兩件事情是不一樣的東西你把它放在一塊就不對嘛我簡單講一下第九條第一項第一款的修正我們是在就像你講的嘛我們要增加的諮商的這個機構嘛不增加目前醫療機構的執行負擔嘛"},{"start":1483.342,"end":1511.031,"text":"我的想法是這樣 我不曉得想法是不是這樣 這第一那第二 我們這次的計劃是針對現在在臨床上遭遇到有困難有障礙的地方來進行處理所以因此必須回歸到現今的醫療現場狀況嘛你現在已經是做得起沒嘛醫事人力真的有這麼充裕嗎 部長所以剛剛有特別提到 台北四連一目前關牌ACP就高達一到三個月啊你可以馬上徵詢嘛 台北執行院也要一個月啊"},{"start":1512.504,"end":1536.089,"text":"跟你講就開始送到現在就是要一到三個月啊有改善了嗎?有改變了嗎?你先保護我這個嘛,有嗎?我要講的是說過去一直大家來講的困境就是對醫院而言incentive也不夠,量也不夠的情況下面要開更多的門診的這件事所以我才會覺得是要開更多的門診對,因為排隊塞車,玉麗之山所以要開更多的門診"},{"start":1539.57,"end":1551.624,"text":"市長 妳是專業的咧沒有 我在講是說過去一直在大家在講的是困境所以我們才會什麼樣的困境當然是有困境妳講的困境跟我認知的困境就不一樣啊"},{"start":1552.692,"end":1579.08,"text":"對 所以我才會是說委員在這邊講的第一個是說塞車這個問題所以我們才會是說如果直覺的反應是開門診的這件事情那為什麼不善用基層的這一塊而且人都學過我沒有反對你要開放基層的這一塊啊我從頭到尾沒有反對啊是你在反對我要擴大這些機構啊因為我們會覺得你不能講 你在反對我反而說我在反對你啊亂講啊"},{"start":1581.926,"end":1587.43,"text":"至此之中,我到現在跟你在對話的過程裡面,誰反對你?看到證書所?我第一次看到一個報告顯成這樣我第一次看到,柏中,你做過兩個月了,你覺得看過這種報告?"},{"start":1607.177,"end":1622.904,"text":"你總共收集幾條?你回應我兩條?剩下你給我怎麼回答?不是只有針對回答我,包括王委員,你怎麼回?其餘條文僅部分文字及配合實務運作修正,無影響執行上的成效。我就看你怎麼樣檢視你的執行上的成效了。你,市長,今年你要增加到四萬五喔。我們說四萬二。"},{"start":1636.67,"end":1640.831,"text":"好啦,減五千也沒關係啦我看你要逼死誰啊我看你要逼死誰啊現在已經是五月一號了第二劑過一半了你要從兩萬多變成四萬百分之一百啊擴大診所,我支持"},{"start":1661.2,"end":1670.708,"text":"醫療機構延伸到護理之家 外展我也支持 都沒跟你反對那我請教一下 講這些護理機構 創造機構 心理治療所 心理治療師那你為什麼要反對我們在講的是協作的部分 大家本來都是可以一起參與的因為本來在那個團隊裡面就會有這樣子的職類的人其實大家一起協作是沒有問題的啊是啊 沒有問題的啊 那你講啊"},{"start":1691.048,"end":1710.991,"text":"這個你答覆嘛,有關修正條文,因為這個程序對象會用自應多會後面,愛各界達成共識,所以我們所有委員的提案,提的所有的修正條文,就是沒有一條適用嘛,沒有一條符合要讓整個ACP的服務量能提升,我們所修的每一條,"},{"start":1712.014,"end":1720.833,"text":"就是讓要簽署AD的這個量能可以提升我們所修的每一個條文對ACP的品質也沒辦法提升"},{"start":1723.2,"end":1739.393,"text":"AT也沒辦法提升 沒辦法增加對 那沒關係那我們就拭目以待嘛我們就要看你意思思健保署如果今天在5月以後不再擴大我就要看你如何去達標嘛達到你講的嘛那你現在設定這個標兩萬多變成4萬是什麼標是最低標還是中標還是你自己設定的標"},{"start":1751.518,"end":1773.053,"text":"這剛剛講的5月要開始的180萬,你如何把相關的去執行的這樣的一個目標,存給委員會啊,多久可以完成啊。不包含這個啊,包含其他的7月份,包含健康的,要盡早接受育育醫療照護諮商的對象。"},{"start":1781.043,"end":1806.889,"text":"我想我們是非常開放的態度,如果臨床上真的需要改善的或需要修訂的,我們都是完全開放的態度來處理請委員放心,我們都可以來討論來看怎麼樣修正但是最重要就是達到量跟值的一個提升,來照顧我們的病人"},{"start":1808.191,"end":1823.039,"text":"好 沒錯 我想大家都要做對的事情 要做好的事情 要做利益中心的事情嘛 對不對但是不可以記名就有偏見啦也不可以記名就叫自己自己很厲害啦"},{"start":1825.663,"end":1834.168,"text":"我認為當各位議員提出相關的手法案的時候,我認為經濟機關應該是辛苦去面對,不然我就會逼手法,提出更好的,可以達成議員的目標。我簡單說,我們到現在連目標也沒有定。"},{"start":1845.194,"end":1871.516,"text":"是你如果說就變四萬了你如果變四萬 人家是有辦法擴大到所有的你講的這樣的一個範疇什麼時候開始執行什麼時候可以到位 沒有勒也完全沒有勒然後我就跟你講說你這樣會不會造成更緊繃的醫療能力會不會你這個要去思考啊你們都來自醫界啊我這個是善意提醒啦好 謝謝主席謝謝劉建國 趙偉的主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":662,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時18分）謝謝主席。我特別跟主席回報一下，我剛剛有講，提案委員如果要做提案說明，要增加時間，我有給王委員，也希望你可以給我更多的時間。第二件事情，這個法律坦白講應該是行政跟立法院有一定程度的共識，因為大家都知道這個必須要推，是一個好的法律，包含部長在當委員的時候也積極的參與，甚至於在很多的記者會、相關的場合都表達認同對病主法推動的作為。主席請坐，你這樣站著好像怪怪的，不好意思，不然請部長好了。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉委員建國：所以一定是有共識的時候我們才會積極來推動，要產生共識當然有很多方式，第一個，委員會；第二個，公聽會；第三個，相關的協調會，我們到時候都還會邀請公部門、醫界、病團，包含原有提案的楊委員、孫教授等等，大家一起共同來面對、來處理。但是今天有一個最大、最大的共識，就是基本上病主法這個法律是要繼續推下去的，然後所謂的ACP跟簽署AD必須要提高量能，這個也不是今天開委員會才產生的結果，而是剛剛我們透過部長、透過司長在答復相關委員的垂詢過程裡面所得到的答案。也就是說，從本法實施到現在，每一個人都非常清楚，將近六年的時間不到1%，甚至不到0.05%這樣的簽署人數，誠如部長所回應相關委員的答詢說吻合率，我不曉得這個吻合率的定義是什麼？什麼叫吻合率？當然也有其他委員在垂詢，真正有照當時簽署的AD去執行的，這個執行率又是百分之幾？我目前為止是沒有聽出任何答案。但是部長有特別提到，希望簽署AD的時候可以更嚴謹，我們要提高品質，要提高品質，是從ACP就必須要來處理的吧？剛剛黃委員也有質詢，不過我並沒有聽出司長針對部長所講的，如何提高預立醫療照護諮商的品質，反而是聽到司長在答詢過程裡面是針對如何提高服務的量能，包含從醫院的附屬機構、護理之家，然後可以外展諸如此類的方向去討論，對不對？所以到底部長講ACP（預立醫療照護諮商）的品質要如何提高？抱歉，我從早上一直聽到現在，我並沒有聽到，這是第一點。","第二點，我也沒有聽到所謂的已經簽署預立醫療決定書之後，它的執行率到底是多少？因為我只聽到吻合率是七成。第三點，這是一個不爭的事實，今天多數的委員應該都希望ACP的諮商費用可以由公部門從健保署等等來做相關的支應，我們從去年7月也已經針對部分病症還有病人提供補助，今天（5月1日）又擴大到65歲以上重大疾病等。我聽到這樣一個發展，我當然非常樂觀，也感到滿欣慰的，就是衛福部積極要來面對這個事情、處理這個事情，甚至要把ACP相關的給付從健保裡面擴大相關的對象。但是問題來了，當司長說要從每年二萬多人提高到四萬多人，要增加二萬五千人，基本上我當然是支持，但你如何去提高？因為剛剛司長所講的幾個面向，基本上你要有150%的成長，還是125%的成長，我是覺得司長是不是要講明確一點，你的方法是什麼？這個法律是正確的，這個法律往前走的過程中，它的執行率、它的預期目標，我們沒有辦法在時間內達到，但我們現在想要快速的去達到，你設定一年要增加二萬五的人來參與預立醫療照護諮商，這個人數你要如何去達標？我希望你可以明確的跟委員會說清楚，這是第一點。","第二點，你也必須要要給委員會一個釋疑，因為剛剛署長說，5月1日開始擴大65歲以上重大疾病等，那兩類的人數就高達180萬，還不包含去年就開放的原有給付對象，也不包含身心健康主動要來簽署的、主動要諮商加簽署的，都不包含。我再簡單的比喻，如果180萬照現今每年執行，有做ACP到簽署的，這是兩個層次的問題啦！我們說ACP就好，假設是2萬，180萬除以2萬，要幾年才可以完成？要90年！如果變成四萬五，要幾年才可以完成？四十幾年啦！不包括去年開始補助的部分，不包括健康的主動要來諮商的，這是第二件事情。","第三件事情，這不是我說的吧？是北聯醫講的，部長應該很清楚，今天開這個會，我想幕僚單位應該有提供相關資料給你，當病主法開始正式實施的時候，平均要去做諮商的要掛多久？一到三個月，我這邊有北聯醫對外的說法，我有花蓮慈濟醫院的說法，如果是這樣子，你如何從二萬變成到四萬五？要怎麼解決、要怎麼處理？現在姑且都不修法，我們知道這個法律的目標、方向是正確的，但是在執行上執行率就偏低的情況之下，你要如何透過行政的作為、透過相關的補助、透過你所講的只有擴大一個小的範圍或怎樣，如何讓你提升這樣的服務量能且兼顧到品質？今天是因為有這樣的情況，所以才有委員主動的提供應該朝向修法這樣一個範疇來做處理，當然修法是不是可以一步到位？也到未必，但是可能有一些是原有在執行的過程當中我們就開始檢視的，像是第幾條是不是應該有一些修正、有一些放寬，甚至有一些必須要更嚴謹的？剛剛黃委員有特別提到，如果已經簽了預立醫療決定書，到時候病患反悔、家屬有意見的情況之下，要怎麼處理？我坦白講，這條文裡面規範得很清楚，如果病患本身已經無意識的情況之下，就是要照當時病患（預立人）在醫院裡所簽的預立醫療決定書去執行，法律有明文規定啊！這可能發生在第幾款？第十四條第一項裡面的第一款跟第五款，因為他可能是末期，但是他意識清楚，他有可能想要反悔，他想要改變，他想到家裡的人會受到影響，所以他想去改變，第五款也有可能啊！但是如果他是第三款的植物人、第二款的昏迷不可逆的情況之下，他要怎麼去跟你改變？他要怎麼反悔？他的家屬怎麼可以不依照病患當時還清楚的情況之下所簽訂的預立醫療決定書，去做任何改變？哪有可能？法律就訂在這邊了啊！","所以我今天從早一直聽到現在，大家覺得這件事是必須要做的，也覺得這個簽署的量能是不足的，這個應該大家都沒有爭議，但是我們怎麼樣擴大這個量能？有很多的方式、管道，除了行政的作為，除了健保署，難道修法不也是解決方式之一嗎？但是你們好像馬上就把修法關起來，這個我覺得不太對吧？我個人感覺不太對嘛！","部長，我最後再講一個，坦白講，衛福部就是要做利益眾生的事情，對不對？我們要利益什麼眾生？很多人都提到臺灣的人口結構叫做「生不如死」，也就是出生的人口比死亡人口還要少，從2021年到現在已經第四年了。再來，需要善終的病患如果一直做無效的醫療，那就一定叫做生不如死，這是另外一種狀態，對不對？今天我們明明知道在病主法的整個實施過程，就是為了要讓這些病患或者是健康的人，未來可能遇到第十四條第一款到第五款其中一款的情況之下，都能未雨綢繆的讓自己未來人生的生命規劃更有尊嚴、更能夠善終，我們要降低這種無效醫療，這也是在利益眾生，同時也是利益家屬，不要到最後讓家屬……就是剛剛有委員提到的，可能病患本身有所反悔，還是家屬有很多意見，我們就是要利益眾生，尊重當時病人自主所簽訂的預立醫療決定書，這也是在利益啊！不只是利益家屬，不只是利益病患，同時也是在利益健保署，為什麼這麼講？我覺得用「補助」這兩個字實在太沉重了，也不夠專業。當我們知道實施這個法就是可以朝向降低所謂的無效醫療，降低無效醫療也就等同於降低健保給付、降低健保費用，有沒有做過評估？雖然一年兩萬多，到現在十萬，就像部長所講的吻合率、執行率，到底降低了多少的無效醫療？以此換算2,500到3,500的擴大相關群組的補助，加減起來到底無效醫療的給付大過現在ACP的諮商費用多少？還是少多少？還是我們在幾年內可以趕過來？","基本上，為政者開源節流的作為、智慧及應變是必要的條件，所以我們不能一直說我們要做這件事情就要讓健保負擔多少、因為讓健保支付太多我們可能承受不住。如果現在是180萬人，以一個人3,000來計算，那就需要54億，雖然必須支付這筆錢，但問題是反而節省了多少？如果180萬人確實都簽了，然後預立醫療決定書也都簽了，到時候如果真的遇到像你講的吻合率或執行率差不多20%就好，還是我們也可以抓到30%，可以減少多少的無效醫療費用？相信部長很清楚，關於臺灣人平均臥床的時間，現在這些都是外界講的，但正確的數字是多少？究竟是7年、8年還是6年？應該是7、8年對不對？7、8年都躺在那裡，多做那些無效的醫療要花多少錢？一個人要再多花多少錢？光是說一個人就好喔！但現在是給每一個人2,500到3,500的ACP諮商費用，所以這個要你們很專業的去做評估，今天在這個委員會我們大家可以好好來討論，但你們要提供出來更精準的數字。我再請教一下ACP預立醫療照護諮商算不算醫療行為？部長，我講這麼多，你可以先回應我一句話嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：如果是諮商，應該不屬於醫療行為，但是諮商的內容是在討論醫療行為。"],["劉委員建國：是啦，沒有錯嘛！我今天要去買一個醫療防癌保險，我在跟你討論你賣給我的醫療保險商品內容的時候，那叫不叫醫療行為？相對是不是在討論未來你可能遇到什麼狀況、要接受什麼醫療的時候，癌症或相關的醫療保險要給付嘛！所以在諮商的範圍裡面，我們要如何說它叫做醫療行為？它在討論醫療沒有錯啊！"],["邱部長泰源：對，討論醫療……"],["劉委員建國：但它是不是醫療行為？"],["邱部長泰源：跟保險稍微不一樣啦！我舉個例子，譬如針對人工營養輸液有一條規定是維持生命的治療，他一定問你什麼叫做維持生命治療？那就很複雜了，從壓胸、插管、打強心劑，漸漸到要不要用抗生素，說實在的，這些東西我是花了30年、照顧過2萬個末期病人，在安寧病房30年才慢慢學到的，所以的確是相當的深奧，這個品質是無止境的，我們要去成長。所以我們所討論的這個部分，的確是需要有專業人員來表達，譬如人工輸液好了，是不是應該要用鼻胃管，是不是應該去開個胃造廔，是打部分的營養劑或是全營養劑，這其實都要針對病人的狀況，我相信這個在ACP的時候一定會討論，病人一定會去問啦！病人問的時候，我們要有辦法回答，不然他怎麼簽得下去？主要是這樣啦！"],["劉委員建國：這個法叫做病人自主權利法，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：我們現在補助諮商費的是針對有病症的對不對？應該沒有錯嘛！過去是不給付，在石署長之前認定ACP不是醫療行為，所以不給付，現在給付了就叫做醫療行為嗎？我看到署長在笑了，這是第一點。","第二點，如果是針對病患，或許部長講這樣是一個範疇，那像身體健康的呢？我是身體健康的，我來做預立醫療諮商的呢？"],["邱部長泰源：他還是會問，他要勾對不對？"],["劉委員建國：對啊！"],["邱部長泰源：他要勾要不要同意到時候不做維持生命治療，他一定會問，不管你是不是健康的人都一定會問啊！"],["劉委員建國：是啊！那是遇到第十四條第一項第一款到第五款的情況之下，在發生當下，才會有所謂的醫療行為，但我在諮商的時候怎麼會有醫療行為？"],["邱部長泰源：所以要有專業的說明啦！"],["劉委員建國：是，關於專業的說明，提供預立醫療照護諮商之醫療機構管理辦法第四條講得很清楚，諮商機構應組成預立醫療照護諮商團隊（以下簡稱諮商團隊），至少包括下列人員：一、醫師一人：應具有專科醫師資格。二、護理人員一人：應具有二年以上臨床實務經驗。三、心理師或社會工作人員一人：應具有二年以上臨床實務經驗。第二條第二項諮商機構，得就前項第二款或第三款人員擇 一設置。第一項人員，應完成中央主管機關公告之預立醫療照護諮商訓練課程。也就是說，不管你是醫師，不管你是護理師，不管你是社心人員，你還是要完成所謂的諮商訓練課程，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：醫師4個小時，護理、社工、心理人員6到11個小時，這是當時這一個管理辦法在那個時代訂下來的情境，我們現在都是依照這樣去執行沒有錯，但是現狀遇到什麼狀況？當北聯醫這麼講、當花蓮慈濟這麼講的時候，當相關醫院在醫療這麼緊繃的情況之下，醫師還要來做這些事情，你覺得現狀對醫師是好的、對想要去做ACP的對象是好的嗎？這個大家來討論，我沒有定見，我沒有說醫師一定非做不可。現今的狀況就是掛一個號，從108年開始實施到現在，平均去掛號就是要等一個月到三個月。今天是5月1號，署長這邊在支付65歲以上的180萬人，當然不可能180萬人馬上做，也不可能馬上就有18萬人，我們說1萬8,000人就好了，你怎麼做得完？你做不完啦！你絕對做不完嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，現在擴展以後，其實場域也擴展很大，包括診所也都可以做了嘛！"],["劉委員建國：診所可以做，我接受、我支持啊！可以呀！"],["邱部長泰源：所以應該是那個場域擴展到很大。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你是醫生的背景，對不對？醫師公會全聯會理事長、台北市醫師公會理事長，還做了2屆立委，又是博士，你開診所，我去跟你諮商，跟你看一個病患，兩者之間你要怎麼選擇？"],["邱部長泰源：我當然會預約時間，譬如……"],["劉委員建國：對，預約。"],["邱部長泰源：譬如下午的時間，我早上看完……普通現在都這樣，上午看門診，下午約一些診或是做居家，有的去山上、海邊，他也可以約在下午看二、三個患者，這樣來解決。因為有社區醫療群的病人在裡面，那些病人本來就是診所在照顧的，他們把照顧的對象叫來講一講，第一個，有信任感；第二個，又很熟悉，家屬等等一定會信任，因為全家都是這位醫師在看診的。"],["劉委員建國：我跟部長有一起到日本參觀過，日本的評鑑制度跟我們不一樣，對不對？他們的評鑑列舉優良的、很棒的、符合人性的、更好級別的長照機構，我們都有去參訪過，甚至也有美國的NGO團體特別到日本去認證這種機構，都是top的。他們的長照機構很多都是一起進入，他們在機構裡面可以申請健保給付，一併可以處理，介護保險也一併可以做雙重處理。我就不清楚，你自己想到要開放更寬的範疇、開放到診所，為什麼長照機構不行？我就不清楚了。"],["邱部長泰源：長照機構如果……"],["劉委員建國：長照機構絕對不是像蘇委員所講的，人家說……你連廟都開放了。"],["邱部長泰源：外展服務可以到長照機構。"],["劉委員建國：外展可以到長照機構，對不對？你們開宗明義答復我們的報告書裡面寫的是什麼，我就看不懂，你把第九條及第十四條混為一談，我不清楚你們為什麼要把這種事情混在一塊？自始至終坦白講……「經主管機關核准之護理機構、長照機構、心理治療所、心理諮商所、社會工作師事務所或法人得提供預立醫療照護諮商。」這是一件事情，這裡是一個句號；然後「經一位醫師診斷符合末期……」，這是在講第十四條第一項第一款，你為什麼要把兩件事情放在一塊？"],["劉司長越萍：沒有，我們要解釋的是過去我們在機構管理這邊，透過醫療機構的外展服務，像診所端的，其實它相關的社心人員可以不用所謂的專任，所以在目前的制度執行上面有它的彈性空間在。這次擴大的部分，我們希望用這樣子的量能來做擴大。以醫事司這邊，其實很多醫師受完訓之後提供這樣的服務，我們現在看到的落差的落點是在不敢去提供服務，所以我們會有輔導團隊來協助提供服務，這樣子增加量能的部分我們覺得是……"],["劉委員建國：增加量能的，對不對？"],["劉司長越萍：對，增加量能。"],["劉委員建國：司長，你現在的答復跟我要做的事情目標是一致的……"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：方法上的落差我覺得還是有，我尊重，但是這兩件事情是不一樣的東西，你把他們放在一塊就不對。我簡單講一下，第九條第一項第一款的修正，就像你講的，我們要增加諮商的機構，不增加目前醫療機構的執行負擔，我的想法是這樣，但是我不曉得你的想法是不是這樣，這是第一。","第二，我們這次的修法是針對現在在臨床上遭到有困難、有障礙的地方來進行處理，因此必須回歸到現今的醫療現場狀況，現在的醫生做得來嗎？部長，醫事人力真的有這麼充裕嗎？所以我剛才特別提到臺北市聯醫目前光排ACP就高達1到3個月，你可以馬上徵詢，臺北市聯醫也要1個月，就跟你講從開始到現在就是要1到3個月，有改善了嗎？你先答復我這個。有嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：我要講的是，過去大家一直講的困境，就是對醫院而言，在incentive不夠、量也不夠的情況下要開更多的門診這件事，所以我才會覺得……"],["劉委員建國：要開更多的門診？"],["劉司長越萍：對，因為排隊塞車，預立諮商的這件事……"],["劉委員建國：所以要開更多的門診？司長，你是專業的耶！"],["劉司長越萍：沒有，我在講的是，過去大家一直在講的是困境，所以我們才會……"],["劉委員建國：什麼樣的困境？當然是有困境，你講的困境跟我認知的困境就不一樣啊！"],["劉司長越萍：對，所以我才會說，委員在這邊講的，第一個是塞車這個問題，我們如果直覺的反應是開門診這件事情，為什麼不善用基層這一塊？而且人都訓練過了……"],["劉委員建國：我沒有反對你要開放基層這一塊啊！我從頭到尾沒有反對呀！是你在反對我要擴大這些機構啊！"],["劉司長越萍：因為我們會覺得……"],["劉委員建國：你不能講，是你在反對我，反而說我在反對你呀！亂講啊！自始至終我現在跟你對話的過程裡面，誰反對你開放到診所？我第一次看到一個報告寫成這樣！"],["邱部長泰源：我想委員也支持我們……"],["劉委員建國：我第一次看到！部長，你也做過兩屆立委，你看過這種報告嗎？總共修十幾條，你回應我兩條，剩下的你回答什麼？不是只有針對回答我，還包括王委員，你怎麼回？「其餘條文僅部分文字及配合實務運作修正，無影響執行上之成效」，我就看你怎麼樣檢視你的執行成效。司長，你今年要增加到4萬5喔！"],["劉司長越萍：我們說4萬。"],["劉委員建國：好，減5,000也沒關係，我看你要逼死誰，我看你要逼死誰！現在已經是5月1號了，第2季過一半了，你要從兩萬多變成4萬，100%啊！擴大到診所，我支持；醫療機構延伸到護理之家、外展，我也支持，統統沒給你反對。我請教一下，講這些護理機構、長照機構、心理治療所、心理諮商師，你為什麼要反對？"],["劉司長越萍：我們在講的是協作的部分大家本來都是可以一起參與的，因為本來在團隊裡面就會有這樣職類的人，其實大家一起協作是沒有問題的。"],["劉委員建國：司長，沒有問題，但是你的答復是「有關所提修正條文草案，因涉及……對象、程序與費用支應等多方面向，應俟各界達成共識……」，所以所有委員提的所有修正條文沒有一條適用，沒有一條符合讓整個ACP的服務量能提升。我們所修的每一條就是讓要簽署AD的量能可以提升，卻變成我們所修的每一個條文對ACP的品質也沒辦法提升，AD也沒辦法提升、沒辦法增加。沒關係，我們就拭目以待，我們就看你們醫事司……健保署如果在今天5月1號不再擴大，我就要看你如何去達標、達到你講的。你現在設定這個標，從兩萬多變成4萬，是什麼標？是最低標，還是中標，還是你自己設定的標？剛剛講的5月1號開始的180萬，你如何把相關執行的目標陳給委員會？多久可以完成？不包含這個，包含其他的7月份，包含健康的、要儘早接受預立醫療照護諮商的對象。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想我們是非常開放的態度，如果臨床上真的需要改善或必須要修訂的，我們都完全以開放的態度來處理，請委員放心，我們都可以來討論、看怎麼樣修正，但是最重要就是達到量跟質的提升來照顧我們的病人。"],["劉委員建國：好，部長，我想大家都在做對的事情、做好的事情、做利益眾生的事情，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["劉委員建國：但是不要見面就有偏見，也不要見面就說自己有多厲害，當國會議員提出相關修法案的時候，我想行政機關應該是要誠懇的去面對。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：不然你就要有辦法提出比修法更好的、可以達成一定目標的方式嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：我簡單說，你們到現在連目標也沒有訂出來，是你自己說要從2萬變4萬，2萬要變4萬，什麼時候有辦法擴大到你所講的這樣的範疇？什麼時候開始執行？什麼時候可以到位？完全都沒有。然後我跟你講這樣會不會造成更緊繃的醫療人力，你要去思考會不會啊！你們都來自醫界啊！"],["邱部長泰源：了解。"],["劉委員建國：我這個是善意的提醒。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們來努力做這件事情。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國召委的充分發言，也謝謝部長跟司長的答詢。","下一位請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}