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謝謝主席齁 你看主席這樣很好啊有意義嘛 台下有意義的聲音當有發出來有意義之後主席就才是讓我們可以講話 這才是正常的開會流程今天這樣就是一個很好的示範但是顯然上一次並不是這樣的進行啊上一次的進行遠的不說 我們就先說最近的就好了"},{"start":2419.398,"end":2424.82,"text":"上一次在所謂的主席宣布這個開會然後大家有沒有異議有異議的那個瞬間的時候這是徐宇珍嘛我記得是徐宇珍徐委員說要做一個什麼停止發言人討論的時候有沒有異議有異議啊那個有異議的聲音大成這個樣子我正想應該是美會委員的聲音吧還是我是沒有認真分不太出來但是"},{"start":2444.127,"end":2448.628,"text":"這個聲音那麼大聲怎麼會現在在這個會議議事錄進行上面叫做無意義呢怎麼會是這樣呢這個光是這個字今天的議事錄就不應該確定了更何況更何況我們必須要說上一次的會議很明顯的是會議通知就是發在這一間內政委員會長期慣行的紅樓2024在這裡進行"},{"start":2472.156,"end":2476.8,"text":"民進黨委員這麼認真這麼早就已經來欸!立法委員認真上班不好嗎?大家不是說7點半上班就多認真有一黨的主席還拼命每天都宣傳我超級認真7點半不好意思立法委員永遠都是最早來的我們這麼早來上班在這裡這個會議室進行準備要等著會議的開始進行沒有想到哭等一個早上不但議事人員沒有進來"},{"start":2497.639,"end":2507.404,"text":"所有的簽到發、簽到發言每一個程序都沒有按照平常的程序來進行我們見不到議事人員、看不到程序發言單、看不到簽到的單子最後竟然是在下午一點多的時候出現了"},{"start":2515.868,"end":2522.33,"text":"有一位神秘人士在門口張貼了這個一個用手寫的用手寫的本會第27次全體委員會改制紅樓201這個二還經過了圖改然後就說換了會議室這是什麼狀況這個人是誰還貼了一個手寫的沒有官房這樣子的一張單子就表示我們的會議要改會議室這樣是合理的嗎這是合乎程序的嗎沒有一個內政委員會知道啊"},{"start":2543.536,"end":2545.458,"text":"好!那我們就算按照這個規定走到隔壁的201好了!欸!內政委員會不就是我嗎?不就是在座的各位嗎?我本人沒有辦法進去啊!影片清清楚楚的證明嘛!在那邊轉的那個鎖沒有辦法進去會議室啊!"},{"start":2559.091,"end":2562.435,"text":"部長官員也都沒有辦法進去請問這個會議是要怎麼樣開始呢?請問這個會議怎麼會是有效的呢?但是在短短20秒之內不但主席宣布了開會主秘宣布了什麼到場人數這些都是在我們沒有進入發生的狀況"},{"start":2575.811,"end":2590.878,"text":"所以這一場會議自始至終就不應該是一個有效率的會議所以我強烈的主張這一個會議意思錄應該如實記載上一次無效的狀況這才是有效的會議錄"},{"start":2610.953,"end":2628.869,"text":"謝謝主席我還是很尊敬你齁我在前面還是跟你鞠躬那一天我沒有機會跟你鞠躬啊你被圍起來了我們講懷疑一下當天的狀況7月8號早上5點20分我到我們內政委員會的時候門打不開敲門裡面有人黃婕幫我開門了"},{"start":2631.611,"end":2645.502,"text":"黃捷是五點十分以前就到了問一下後面那個喇叭手有沒有壞掉內政委員會這裡的手有沒有壞掉壞掉的只有茶水間被國民黨委員撞壞的門串怎麼會說要辦黃捷呢這韓院長太誇張太離譜了吧一個內政委員會的委員提早那麼早來到內政委員會開會沒有破壞任何門鎖的情況下說要辦黃捷合理嗎"},{"start":2661.053,"end":2685.126,"text":"韓院長怎麼了又怎麼了好韓院長指示之後我也不知道我一向也尊敬我們內政委員會我們的我們的祖密我們的議事人員你們跑去哪裡了我們從5點多在這邊也沒有冷氣喔冷氣7點半中央空調自己開的"},{"start":2687.677,"end":2695.994,"text":"到七點多一般議事人員今天也很好嘛我們七點半進來議事人員也都來了嘛請問議事人員從七點"},{"start":2699.277,"end":2718.267,"text":"辦到下午一點半這一段時間又跑去哪裡了?又坐誰的車來到紅樓201了?剛剛巧會委員那一張公告又是誰張貼的?有沒有蓋內政委員會的章?當那一張貼上去我要去201開會的時候門被鎖起來了"},{"start":2722.573,"end":2742.189,"text":"當我們進去簽到的時候裡面已經有五個國民黨的委員已經簽到了這是什麼黑箱為什麼要在內政委員會發聲都要一一的確認清楚這個在議事錄裡面都沒有接下來在進到這個內政委員會之後"},{"start":2745.709,"end":2767.754,"text":"連劉士芳部長剛才接受媒體訪問的時候也沒有收到通知說聽說你是看電視才趕快來2011的太離譜了吧我們的內政委員會要這樣開嗎為的是什麼為的是要請所有的要連署罷免的所有的台灣人民"},{"start":2769.059,"end":2788.894,"text":"要把身份證拿出來罷免才算數國民黨就是要做這個所以要製造所有的這一些衝突所以要製造所有的這一些黑箱的會議所以我們在這邊繼續程序發言我們主張7月8號的議事錄是無效的必須要詳實記載謝謝"},{"start":2799.48,"end":2802.061,"text":"好,繼續我們請美會委員發言,謝謝。主席,大家董事,大家好。在這裏本身要說一個覺得說,是怎樣會沒好,因為在過程當中,我們開會,有史以來都是在這個會議裡控理的開會。"},{"start":2828.697,"end":2835.842,"text":"結果那天,沒想到民進黨臨陣打拚,早早就來佔這個主席台。在這個規定當中,不管你是怎樣的規定,你要跟那個所在,說實在,這個小朋友的租賃在哪裡,這有什麼在這個地方的公文,"},{"start":2856.437,"end":2864.742,"text":"說實在,我當時在那裡也在想說,怎麼可能要刷去那裡,要刷去那裡,也要我們大家都知道,結果本席和其他黨委員辦公室的主任說,才有接到我們主席阿基斯特說要把辦公室開了,完全都沒有把這個"},{"start":2883.934,"end":2885.897,"text":"我又不知道在外面,人家說裡面的問題很大,結果我想要去那邊聽說其實"},{"start":2895.41,"end":2907.475,"text":"審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案案。．審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案案。．審查"},{"start":2917.259,"end":2918.321,"text":"我認為雖然我是內政委員,但我沒有在裡面開會,這樣有一點可憐吧?"},{"start":2929.332,"end":2940.719,"text":"所以說,我要跟主席說,因為主席剛才說,我們都是很和諧的,但是因為出錯問題關於國家的態勢,我們一定要有精力,所以我看韓國瑜院長"},{"start":2951.605,"end":2974.532,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":2977.881,"end":2984.843,"text":"過多次,從來不聽到院長說出他的良心話對中華民國的立法院的價盤,所以我對他的價盤越來越沒了,不然如果回到我都說院長院長。"},{"start":2995.606,"end":2999.608,"text":"真的,我覺得他的做法這樣是不對的。所以說,我認為,我們內政委員,我覺得那天,真的做了,想過想過,尤其說有意義,尤其我這個大聲的,我說有意義,結果也是這樣過了。這樣說,有一點點天理,有一點點公平,以上。"},{"start":3021.754,"end":3026.436,"text":"主席,我們與會同仁。針對我們7月8號,就這個禮拜一,現在要確定這議事錄,本席是非常的遺憾,因為我也是內政的召委。"},{"start":3048.515,"end":3063.666,"text":"我今天也提案我們內政有內政的流程那我們內政我們兩位召委是一個最和諧的在立法院我們內政委員會是最和諧那我看到禮拜一我真的也真的傻掉了"},{"start":3064.406,"end":3092.082,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":3093.223,"end":3110.644,"text":"也沒有我們內政部的公文也沒有召委的名字那個公文到底是公文還是所寫的那也不能確定說我們的議事廳換了在隔壁那也沒有公信力啊也沒有辦法號召我們所有的我們內政委員會到那邊去開會啊"},{"start":3112.346,"end":3112.446,"text":"主席"},{"start":3125.066,"end":3147.394,"text":"我們確定議事錄這應該是我們是無法來做確認是不是我本席建議是當天的會議無效或是我們想個比較原法的讓整個我們的內政的整個流程以整個和諧不要去破壞掉"},{"start":3148.334,"end":3148.634,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":3168.391,"end":3169.652,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":3196.056,"end":3196.196,"text":"主席"},{"start":3211.38,"end":3217.362,"text":"好,主席、各位同事,我在這邊要嚴正的宣告,禮拜一的會議是無效的,違法會議,會議無效。為什麼會這樣說呢?平常我們內政委員會其實都非常的有紀律,早上七點半的時候我們的議事人員就會出現在會議室。"},{"start":3230.365,"end":3235.289,"text":"讓我們來準備簽到8點所有的委員也都準時來簽到可是禮拜一大家看到早上8點我們所有的委員站在這邊等著排隊要來簽到結果議事人員全部都消失了全部都消失了消失多久6小時我們議事人員水癮6小時請問是去了哪裡被誰帶走難道我們"},{"start":3256.585,"end":3264.413,"text":"立法院不需要給大家一個交代嗎?為什麼我們的議事人員可以消失這麼久不在內政委員會來開會呢?所以這一次的會議的舉行跟發言的登記已經很明顯違反議事規則了。"},{"start":3272.561,"end":3294.869,"text":"所以我主張這一次的會議無效再來我們的委員會組織法第九條也規定除了秘密會議之外各委員委員會應該要公開舉行可是我們當天禮拜一召委宣告會換會議室甚至阻擋我們立法委員進到更換的會議室為什麼因為其實我們開會通知單明明就是寫紅樓202可是當天才手寫到一個"},{"start":3300.851,"end":3323.243,"text":"要換到201而這一張手寫沒有任何的蓋章沒有任何的簽證甚至我們都沒有收到通知的情況下會議就換到201舉行了這難道算是一個有效的會議嗎甚至我們的部長都被擋在外面都還不知道哦原來已經改到已經換會議室了這樣的會議真的是有效的嗎"},{"start":3324.404,"end":3352.885,"text":"甚至當天我進到會議室201的時候國民黨所有的委員都已經完成簽到了這難道不是黑箱嗎?為什麼國民黨的委員可以先簽到再把門打開讓我們在不知情的情況下進到現場才知道說難道是不是已經優先先讓國民黨的委員在會議還沒召開之前就已經知道要換到哪裡而且已經完成簽到呢?這樣的會議是有效的嗎?"},{"start":3354.625,"end":3376.2,"text":"最後我要抗議嚴正的抗議韓國瑜院長議事不中立為什麼特別針對我更何況我到底是違反了哪一個法律違反了哪一個規定門鎖既沒有被破壞我也是合法合規的進到會議室真的破壞門鎖的是國民黨陳永康委員他把茶水間的門栓踹斷了為什麼韓院長選擇辦綠不辦藍呢"},{"start":3384.577,"end":3413.477,"text":"所以我必須要在這邊嚴正的抗議韓國瑜院長根本就是針對我個人甚至把我的影像外洩沒有任何的通知可以在不告知委員的情況下就這樣洩露立法院的監視器的影像嗎沒有影響我個人的個資的問題嗎這就是現在意識不中立的立法院我在這邊嚴正的抗議我再次主張今天的議事錄因數無效禮拜一的會議是無效的"},{"start":3414.366,"end":3414.686,"text":"怎麼變這麼高?"},{"start":3452.191,"end":3470.92,"text":"各位委員其實大家對上一次的會議意思錄大家都有各種不同的看法其實我們必須要說這個程序上是不是完全沒有瑕疵呢我認為還是有一點點瑕疵在剛剛很多委員都說了"},{"start":3473.021,"end":3497.036,"text":"通知不臨時,內政委員不得其門而入,到了之後都已經簽到好了。其實這一點點,我個人覺得內政委員會的委員,不管是各黨各派,我覺得都必須要受到尊重。這一點我覺得我必須要在這邊說明一下。"},{"start":3498.735,"end":3526.321,"text":"那另外對於議事進行的程序裡面除了我剛說的這個臨時更改會議是沒有及時通知之外呢我記得當天吳立華委員他是在現場的然後呢在唱名的過程當中吳立華委員有說他要發言結果他沒有得到發言的機會"},{"start":3527.648,"end":3553.753,"text":"我覺得這大家都是立法委員我覺得這一點他沒有發言的機會所以我認為這個會議的意思錄就是那你如果要這樣子你也要把這個過程稍微寫一下讓他以後對著他的選民什麼的他可以有一個說法有一個機會我覺得這個可能要對吳委員有一些"},{"start":3555.283,"end":3574.35,"text":"公平的機會畢竟我們那天我們的議事議事要進行的程序裡面有很多是關於原住民委員他們這個投票的一些相關的權利這一點我覺得這個吳立華委員的權利我們必須也要保障他"},{"start":3575.273,"end":3600.228,"text":"那其他的很多的委員都有說了我就不再追溯了所以我個人會覺得說這一次的議事錄要確定我覺得我們可以再斟酌一下那是不是要修改內容或是我們今天先不處理議事錄其實不處理議事錄我們會議還是可以照常的進行所以這一點我覺得我們大家可以思考一下謝謝"},{"start":3602.385,"end":3605.688,"text":"主席,各位同仁,大家好。本席在這裡要特別地強調,"},{"start":3625.666,"end":3650.729,"text":"我們內政委員會確實過去一直都很和諧但是不知道為什麼從7月4號開始我們的會議連召委都進不了會議室這一塊我覺得大家也要去想那7月4號召委進不了會議室然後呢我們也沒有辦法來開會所以難道7月8號也要如此嗎"},{"start":3651.98,"end":3665.078,"text":"所以我想7月8號這個會議室會更改到這個2011他一定有其原因的我記得我在念博士班的時候我們老師跟我講"},{"start":3666.118,"end":3683.568,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":3685.129,"end":3702.03,"text":"所以7月8號民進黨委員說很認真開會其實認真是要讓大家開會大家來討論那不是提早到你考試提早到你就考比較高嗎?我想不是"},{"start":3702.952,"end":3717.203,"text":"所以我們內政委員會一直很和諧為什麼我們這個7月8號我們民進黨的委員呢需要那麼早而且會議室的門就不是議事人員開的"},{"start":3718.584,"end":3738.921,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":3739.381,"end":3750.389,"text":"我不知道立法院什麼時候需要由立法委員來開門所以本席在這裡希望這個不要斷章取義我們今天民進黨委員剛剛所發言的斷章取義那我們要讓所有的事情社會大眾要了解也要有公斷"},{"start":3764.138,"end":3787.848,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":3792.258,"end":3813.692,"text":"我們對於那一天雖然在混亂中雖然在混亂中但是呢整個的程序本身還是非常的要在這裡呢我們的召委非常的辛苦那一天雖然我們沒辦法完整的開會但是至少至少我們整個議事我們已經進行了謝謝"},{"start":3816.107,"end":3821.356,"text":"好,非常謝謝徐信義委員的發言繼續我們請劉許廷委員發言謝謝主席"},{"start":3828.821,"end":3849.677,"text":"這幾件事情我們還是在這邊做一下釐清第一個有關於早上起床提早進入叫認真上班這件事情真的好意思這樣說嗎?第一個大家想知道你是要用什麼樣的方式你難道不用講清楚說明白嗎?第二早起你是為了霸佔主席台為了阻止一場會議的正常進行這不叫認真上班"},{"start":3850.638,"end":3872.97,"text":"這一場不但沒有讓內政委員會可以順利進行還連帶影響了很多委員會在上個禮拜四跟禮拜一兩場的會議之中其實是嚴重影響立法院的議事效率嚴重影響我們立法院同仁的工作內容請問這是認真上班嗎這是什麼值得拿來說嘴很驕傲的事情嗎不要搞笑好不好"},{"start":3873.848,"end":3884.166,"text":"第二回到這個門鎖的問題啊問題不是有沒有破壞而是有外人疑似進入立法院的院區嗎這件事情從院長的高度他難道不應該被合理的調查嗎"},{"start":3885.856,"end":3911.719,"text":"問題是在於今天有我們的立法院的同事在受媒體採訪的時候公然否認自己做過的事情在所有媒體鏡頭前面公然說謊沒有真相的一件事情難道不用查清楚嗎難道我們立法院的同仁跟社會大眾不值得了解事情的真相不應該說明白嗎我覺得這件事情自有公論啦這個我同意自有公論再來我要講這下午的會議它真的是一場黑箱的會議嗎"},{"start":3913.7,"end":3936.994,"text":"我手上這裡應該大家都有收到內政委員會正式變更會議室的公函該走的程序有走嘛回去找一下嘛回去找一下嘛第一個第二個你如果講說這一場黑箱會議你們沒有辦法參加你們不得其門而入請問為什麼議事錄上面有14位我們所有內政委員會簽名簽到的簽到表為什麼"},{"start":3938.494,"end":3962.807,"text":"為什麼有47位列席的委員,包含不同的委員會?那場會議所有參加人都非常清楚我們在前面進去佈置會場是因為要等待會議直播的訊號切換我們之所以沒有第一時間開門是因為我們清楚一旦開門民進黨就會攻佔主席台按照事後的發展,難道這不是事實嗎?"},{"start":3964.349,"end":3981.919,"text":"我們自始至終都希望會議可以順利進行不管在紅樓202或者是201或者是群賢我們的初衷沒有改變我們希望場地佈置好我們希望負責主席台只是希望會議能夠順利進行我們在這邊都直接講高清召委很明白的跟我們黨團表示"},{"start":3983.3,"end":4006.279,"text":"如果要開會,叫兵叫驚,該答詢要答詢,該處理要處理,該逐條要逐條,如果有任何動議的修正,也要按照正常的會議規則來做行使。他有沒有說到做到?難道沒有嗎?是不是按照開會的程序?如果我們這次一場真的會議要快速通關,大可重演過去30秒或一分鐘的事件,可是有嗎?"},{"start":4007.472,"end":4016.347,"text":"我們主動開門讓大家進來讓大家開會是因為希望大家可以好好的討論可是結果是什麼?結果是這個會議又一次的被癱瘓"},{"start":4017.662,"end":4037.387,"text":"所以這些事情難道不應該說清楚嗎?所以我們希望這個議事錄我同意鴻祿委員講的內容上有若干可以討論大家值得修正的地方但你要講它是一場無效的會議或者是藉機還要把事情扯到韓國院長身上或者是要抹黑召委跟我們議事人員本行是絕對不同意的以上非常謝謝牛煦庭委員的發言謝謝"},{"start":4042.125,"end":4042.205,"text":"主席"},{"start":4060.578,"end":4083.028,"text":"主席還有各位同仁大家好我想針對7月8號的我們的這個議事錄到底有沒有效我想公道這在人心尤其在7月4號的時候我們可以看到當我們的高金昭偉就站在這裡要主持議事的進行為什麼因為主席台整個都被佔領了那高金昭偉跟我們的議事人員站在這邊的時候議事人員的這個議事錄還被搶走"},{"start":4086.69,"end":4098.448,"text":"這歷歷在目所以在7月8號的時候又重新上演了一次我還記得如果5點多就可以進到會議室的話那就可以表示他認真上班的話那我想請教一下為什麼後來門要鎖出來 鎖起來"},{"start":4102.313,"end":4109.477,"text":"為什麽一堆另外的民進黨委員都在外面排隊在演什麽明明裡面就一堆人啊為什麽還要把門鎖起來然後在外面演呢所以表示他們就是認為這樣是不對的應該是我們7點才能夠正式開門大家應該要7點這是我們內政委員會的這個慣例7點才能夠進來"},{"start":4124.224,"end":4130.447,"text":"那當裡面一堆人在五點多已經潛入的時候到底是用什麼樣的方式?這樣是合法的嗎?這樣是對的嗎?那我覺得這個部分為什麼到最後迫使我們要改其他的委員會就是因為民進黨占據主席台我們沒有辦法讓議事能夠順利的進行"},{"start":4144.275,"end":4165.961,"text":"也沒有辦法讓我們的高金昭偉能夠坐在主席台上跟我們的議事人員能夠確保議事的進行所以這是不得不下面的一個做法那當然我想高金昭偉也非常重視整個的流程跟程序所以當我們換到隔壁的會議室的時候第一個是有公告的我們要換到隔壁會議室第二個呢最重要的是我們當天要討論的議案是什麼"},{"start":4169.562,"end":4184.466,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":4189.568,"end":4192.911,"text":"主要是要來討論這個那也是民進黨委員的提案我們也都非常尊重我們也都很希望大家共同來好好討論希望聯署的條件能夠更加嚴謹而不是像現在這個方式這到底何錯之有"},{"start":4216.391,"end":4223.896,"text":"所以我想增加身份證的發證日期的這個部分我們也認為很有道理所以當天我們也想好好討論它包括我們很多原住民的委員當天也都來也很希望針對原住民的捲壩法的一些相關的規範能夠做一些修法的條件請問一下這樣一個方向我們其實為了換會議室就是為了讓議事順利的進行那當天我為什麼發言是因為我是第一個登記發言"},{"start":4243.789,"end":4260.635,"text":"那我也要做詢答那在那過程中可是因為事實上民進黨的委員完全無所不用其極在主導議事的進行我根本沒有辦法能夠好好的詢答所以我當然就是要請主席是不是能夠先暫停會議這個就是當天真實的狀況那我想大家應該都看得到因為其實都有民進黨這個佔領主席台的一個狀況我們希望今天的議事錄本來就是有效的謝謝"},{"start":4273.274,"end":4277.892,"text":"好,非常謝謝許宇珍委員的發言,繼續我們再次請黃婕委員發言,謝謝。"},{"start":4288.154,"end":4317.036,"text":"好那因為簡短我要回憶一下啦因為還是聽到有些委員斷章取義完全是曲解當天的會議的進行的內容甚至是造謠的我在這邊簡短的回憶一下第一個就是說當天什麼時候主席宣布開會的呢他們在20宣布開會的時候我們在場至少我們所有民進黨的委員都沒有收到通知因為他們就是偷偷摸摸使用一個email"},{"start":4317.316,"end":4321.86,"text":"然後傳到我們的公務信箱五分鐘之後就在二零一宣布開會了也就是說我們仍在現場的委員根本就還沒有打開這個e-mail請問五分鐘後就宣告會議是開始這難道不是心裡有鬼嗎這就是他們偷偷摸摸正在進行的事情"},{"start":4338.362,"end":4357.134,"text":"然後剛剛有委員說到如果我們這樣子不是是會上演這個半分鐘的事情我不知道國民黨怎麼好意思講十年前的半分鐘我相信張志文委員在這裡最清楚他爸爸當年就是引發十年前半分鐘事件上演的元兇"},{"start":4359.468,"end":4362.95,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4375.897,"end":4392.14,"text":"當天會議無法進行,完全都是因為國民黨挾持了會議。為什麼呢?因為早上8點我們所有的委員在這邊乖乖的準時排隊。結果,我們在後面的這個議事桌,大家可以看到,以往就是8點甚至7點的時候,議事員就坐在那邊,然後把所有的簽到單、登記發言,把單子擺出來。結果我們在排隊的時候,怎麼等?等不到。等了6個小時,還是等不到。"},{"start":4402.162,"end":4418.284,"text":"就因為議事人被帶走。到底被誰帶走了?給大家看一個畫面喔!欸?沒有拿著啊!李嘉!李嘉!好補充一下!這個!媒體都拍到了喔!當天議事人身影6小時在哪裡?是不是在我們高經交委的辦公室?"},{"start":4418.965,"end":4431.316,"text":"然後6個小時之後才被一起帶出來坐上同一台車進到201的會議室。這難道不是瑕疵一省人難道不是偷偷摸摸為了要開閉門會議嗎?甚至我們所有的委員當時終於得知說啊!原來是在201開會5分鐘後我們走到那裡甚至連部會都還沒進去結果他們把門關上不讓我們進去"},{"start":4442.626,"end":4457.953,"text":"結果開門的時候他們已經部署好了,然後站在主席台上的是誰?是國民黨!你們說為了要怕癱瘓議事進行隨意,你們說要好好開會,結果當天霸佔主席台的竟然是國民黨!把主席台完全佔住了!這不就是國民黨你們在癱瘓議事嗎?真的是太厲害了!"},{"start":4466.095,"end":4491.06,"text":"那最後我講一下啦這個吳秉瑞撤案的事情他早就已經撤案了我不知道為什麼國民黨到現在還要寄生人家要吃人家豆腐過去造成最大的不合格率的連署的就是國民黨就是造假大戶多少死人連署多少假人連署都是在國民黨手上結果他們現在好意思透過這一個法律要來寄生別人的提案"},{"start":4491.64,"end":4508.551,"text":"為了要保護謝國良,為了要保護這些委員自己怕被罷免,就來提高這個罷免門檻,真的是非常的厚顏無恥。像這樣,沒收民主,沒收大家人民的罷免權。等提案,我們絕對不同意。謝謝。好啦,謝謝大家。"},{"start":4521.618,"end":4521.638,"text":"租賃"},{"start":4537.296,"end":4566.181,"text":"各政黨的委員尤其民進黨的委員跟國民黨委員針對7月4號禮拜四7月8號禮拜一的議程的部分還有所做的行為所做的發言都已經聽完了現在身為一個排案的召委有事實的這個說明首先我第一次要講我首先我要講的是7月4號的星期四其實星期四大家都可以看到我的身體是非常還沒有復原的那麼我一進來的時候呢"},{"start":4567.691,"end":4568.071,"text":"租賃住宅市場"},{"start":4589.242,"end":4589.282,"text":"租賃租賃"},{"start":4604.76,"end":4628.762,"text":"一早的時間除了我們內政委員會被癱瘓之外呢還有三個委員會其實也被癱瘓我覺得感到非常的遺憾身為一個22年在立法院裡面的立法委員我不樂意這件事情發生所以一直到下午的時候我們希望能夠改變這個這個開會的地方那開會的地方要改變的時候呢"},{"start":4629.841,"end":4630.622,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":4651.5,"end":4672.693,"text":"沒有任何一個包括提案委員吳秉瑞委員來告訴我他不要排入議程。身為一個召委,既然已經合乎程序的規則排入到委員會裡面,民進黨委員在禮拜四的時候霸佔吐息台是因為徐宇珍委員門檻的問題,那麼"},{"start":4675.094,"end":4696.812,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":4697.833,"end":4719.273,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":4724.157,"end":4748.891,"text":"這個不正式的方法開門呢還有我們也看到了鍾嘉斌委員他也企圖要破壞我們的窗戶那麼這些事情當抓委都知道的時候我當然非常的擔心我們的議事能不能順利的進行而且我們也透過了畫面上看到"},{"start":4749.531,"end":4770.017,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":4773.658,"end":4788.381,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":4788.962,"end":4788.982,"text":"公報﹚"},{"start":4814.935,"end":4815.376,"text":"租賃住宅市場"},{"start":4834.275,"end":4854.269,"text":"已經完成了公開透明的程序規則那因此我也要求國民黨你們必須要打開門不能夠我們自己在裏面開會當然按照我們的議事程序只要內政委員會的五個人其實就可以開會"},{"start":4855.39,"end":4879.237,"text":"但是召委並沒有那麼做,召委希望其他黨團的委員也進來。因此當我們都合乎了所有的開會的議程之後,我也請國民黨團一定要把門打開來。那麼在打開來的同時,我們也讓大家簽名,因此就會看到我們的媒體朋友。"},{"start":4880.213,"end":4881.094,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":4898.664,"end":4909.532,"text":"徐宇貞委員的提議之下,我們就不再進行討論。我接受了徐宇貞委員的要求,也希望我們就不要再繼續討論,我們就休息。"},{"start":4915.691,"end":4915.851,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4932.515,"end":4932.655,"text":"租賃主席"},{"start":4951.098,"end":4955.925,"text":"也沒有任何造謠,完全是根據事實在說明。"},{"start":5138.327,"end":5139.348,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":5172.005,"end":5172.085,"text":"主席"},{"start":5217.145,"end":5217.365,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":5234.548,"end":5235.388,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":5252.295,"end":5252.555,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":5281.718,"end":5282.238,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":5298.212,"end":5309.338,"text":"所以七位跟五位贊成上次的會議議事錄多數所以我們的議事錄就確定好 我們繼續進行討論事項我們現在請宣讀 謝謝"},{"start":5321.988,"end":5347.125,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":5349.636,"end":5351.097,"text":"李博弈委員王美惠委員張宏路委員"},{"start":5376.738,"end":5380.879,"text":"黃婕、劉許廷、徐欣盈、丁學中、張志倫、徐宇貞、黃建斌、麥玉珍、"},{"start":5400.541,"end":5407.83,"text":"現在我介紹一下列席的官員歡迎內政部部長劉世芳部長政務次長董建宏"},{"start":5409.721,"end":5438.001,"text":"地政司司長王成基、專門委員何俊達、科長廖慶安、國土管理署專門委員張玉欣、國家住宅及都市更新中心資產管理部副主任廖雪菲、財政部負稅署專門委員王俊隆、個人資料保護委員會籌備處法治事務組科長陳景儀、法務部檢察官謝佑君。"},{"start":5439.422,"end":5440.362,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":5457.224,"end":5481.053,"text":"謝謝主席各位委員大家辛苦了我們總是要回到民生法案的討論本席作為年輕世代的民意代表非常了解年輕人面對防止孩子二選一的困境高房價高租金高通膨是所有現在年輕世代生活的重大負擔所以說居住正義的推動我想是不分藍綠白應該要共同主張而且共同重視的這樣子的一個價值"},{"start":5482.293,"end":5506.233,"text":"那麼我們中央政府從2017年開始推動社會住宅包租代管計畫,如今邁入第四期。本來是希望說可以帶動去化這個市場上的空屋,空的房子,讓它這個地方可以充分的來發揮效果。但無奈這一段時間推行下來,這個租屋市場不透明,租屋黑市的情況還是比較嚴重。導致,也導致了這個包租代管的政策推動上要受到阻礙。"},{"start":5507.335,"end":5533.87,"text":"那從包租貸款歷年媒合的數據來看市場往貸款傾斜貸款的數量比包租的數量多3.25倍但是以現行的租賃條例法規只要求包租業的轉租案件要做實價登錄而數量比較多的貸款業者卻不用登錄這其實是有改善的空間因此本席提出租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、三十八條之二條文修正草案"},{"start":5534.35,"end":5541.481,"text":"除了既有的包租登錄之外,也讓代管納入實價登錄系統,逐步來落實租賃市場的透明化。"},{"start":5543.905,"end":5564.713,"text":"本席同時也要代表國民黨黨團作出說明,國民黨黨團的版本跟本席的版本方向一致,但強度有差。國民黨黨團的版本主張連租屋補貼的部分也要納入這個透明化的機制,換言之把這樣子的一個義務,這個讓這個租賃人有申報的這樣子的一個義務,但不管"},{"start":5565.933,"end":5583.988,"text":"這個今天的討論可以達成什麼的程度?我們都希望我們都希望可以往前邁一步我想這是比較重要的我們當然了解這個行政院內政部應該也會我想行政院不反對推動租屋市場透明化但我們不希望這個只淪為口號而沒有逐年逐年的進展"},{"start":5584.768,"end":5602.321,"text":"所以我們希望先透過相對衝擊較小的租賃條例來做修正未來我們也會提出住宅法相關的修正目標一定要在這一屆裡面讓我們的租屋市場有顯著改善這個透明化的進度必須要讓大家看到成果"},{"start":5602.941,"end":5615.454,"text":"按照現行規定包租貸款業者在成立契約後30日就要把相關資訊提供給地方政府政府手上其實已經有足夠的相關資訊本期之前在質詢內政部長的時候也講擴大租金補貼的申請戶數51萬加上包租貸款的8萬餘件政府其實"},{"start":5619.938,"end":5636.507,"text":"可以只要透過整理跟法規的修正可以有效掌握可以高達60萬件的注定契約如果這些東西可以有效的來做公佈有效來做透明其實就可以導引租屋市場全體走向透明我們希望透過法條的修正配套措施的擬定讓這個租屋"},{"start":5638.448,"end":5663.076,"text":"市場的透明化可以有更顯著的進展讓未來的實價登錄網上有更多的租屋資訊提供民眾參考也讓大眾知道租屋地點附近的租金行情藉由比價讓房東在定價時能夠審慎而不是因為這個資訊的不透明而有收取超額利潤的機會本期相信只有市場正常包租貸款政策才會成功包租貸款的業者"},{"start":5663.536,"end":5680.973,"text":"才會有未來真正更多的商機。最後我們要感謝高津昭委的排案,也懇請各位同仁在名稱法案的部分我們捐濟成見,予以大力支持。以上,謝謝。好,非常謝謝田安委員、牛煦庭委員的提案。說明,我們現在請內政部劉部長釋放來做報告。"},{"start":5686.945,"end":5703.818,"text":"謝謝昭偉,也謝謝各位內政委員會的委員以及列席的官員。今天貴委員會開會,審查大院國民黨立法院黨團還有牛委員許庭等18人所提租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例的部分條文修正草案,一共有兩案。"},{"start":5704.699,"end":5728.268,"text":"那內政部應邀列席報告深感榮幸那對於國民黨立院黨團跟牛委員等18人所推動租屋市場透明化的用心跟努力表達謝意那其實長久以來不管是藍綠黨團或者是民眾黨黨團對於租屋市場透明化其實都是我們努力達成的目標那也是無非說對於很多年輕世代在租屋市場上面能夠獲得比較正確的資訊"},{"start":5730.129,"end":5730.209,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":5752.819,"end":5759.204,"text":"內政部在推動有關租屋市場透明化的時候不是只有根據現在所說的租賃住宅市場發展跟管理條例的部分條文而是我們根據住宅法還有不動產經濟業者以及若干的租賃市場的發展條例來做全面性的參考那到目前為止在內政部裡面所"},{"start":5774.714,"end":5781.297,"text":"登錄的部分包括租金補貼或者包括包租貸款已經超過有60萬戶那我們在做這個內部的滿意度的時候滿意度也非常的高但是仍然有改善的空間所以我們就針對這個國民黨黨團提案的部分還有牛委員徐庭所提案的部分跟大院做一個簡單的報告第一個國民黨黨團所提案修正明定全面租賃實價登錄的部分"},{"start":5801.746,"end":5805.369,"text":"內政部在111年的時候曾經邀集了22個地方政府來開會嚴商全面租賃實價登錄的議題當時的22個地方政府都認為租賃實價登錄雖然有助租屋資訊的透明但是也有可能面臨在租屋市場租金上漲或者是租屋釋出減少等不利民眾租屋的衝擊"},{"start":5827.808,"end":5831.331,"text":"也就是說22個地方政府都認為它的衝擊性是在於租屋的房客那所以認為現階段尚不宜推動全面的實價登錄此外在租賃契約經過租賃雙方合意就成立不會以書面登記為必要契約的成立及實際內容不亦全面掌控"},{"start":5848.948,"end":5852.749,"text":"也就是說契約裡面所登錄的這個價格是實或是虛或者是有不實的狀況可能也會面臨出租人第一個也就是房東規避申報登錄或者以不實作價登錄的方式來誤導紐區租屋市場的資訊這個情形反而會影響提供租屋資訊的正確性那對於檢舉獎金的機制雖然看起來是可以協助租賃實價登錄的稽查"},{"start":5877.697,"end":5897.347,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十"},{"start":5901.169,"end":5920.02,"text":"在租賃住宅服務業所提供的資訊當中,其中,包租契約簽訂後,業者將再轉租於房客。包租契約的成交租金資訊尚不具市場的參考性。再來,代管契約則為業者受委託管理事務及代管費用的規定。"},{"start":5920.72,"end":5925.902,"text":"也非租賃契約的租金行情資訊,如果這些資訊也由地方政府全部進行辦理實價登錄,也會造成租屋資訊的混亂。更何況,很多租客或是房東他是跨縣市地方政府的,那這個也會有置私欲焚的考量。"},{"start":5938.827,"end":5963.735,"text":"二、在有關設宅代管的案件方面因為業者需要重建媒合符合資格的房客涉及重建居間的行為依照現行的規定已經需要申報租賃時價登錄至於設宅以外一般代管的租賃契約資訊因為約定的代管事項非以代收租金為必要業者未必能夠掌握真實的租金訊息"},{"start":5964.855,"end":5980.692,"text":"且如因此而申報不實受到裁罰,將會衍生不同的爭議,而且是屬於房東跟房客之間的民法上面的爭議比較多,所以要建議需要再謹慎來評估修法效益和可行性。"},{"start":5981.372,"end":6001.471,"text":"三、對於租賃實價登錄主要在提供租屋市場交易行情資訊參考為租屋資訊透明化的方法之一。內政部目前規劃將透過已經收集到的租賃實價登錄還有包租代管及租金補貼等等資料在有三個原則下第一個去識別化"},{"start":6002.091,"end":6018.802,"text":"二、個人資料保護可以獲得保護。第三、不修法的原則下,會儘速辦理以區域為主的租金行情等相關統計分析,並且適時對外來發布,讓民眾更能夠了解租賃市場的情形,增加透明度。"},{"start":6032.652,"end":6035.154,"text":"提供給各位大院委員來做參考以上報告"},{"start":6056.613,"end":6056.813,"text":"有請部長"},{"start":6091.864,"end":6120.047,"text":"張委員早來部長早部長其實整個租屋的市場透明化我相信這個也是內政部要努力的目標嘛是的對啦但我今天的這個修法我有兩點要請問一下部長部長我們現在所有的300億的租屋補貼當中如果我所有的年輕人我要得到租屋補貼需不需要修這個法"},{"start":6121.035,"end":6142.416,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":6144.71,"end":6173.589,"text":"我們希望的是年輕人要租房子或有需要租房子的人能夠用最快最合理的速度去租到房子這是我們努力的目標吧當然沒錯嘛是所以部長問題來了如果今天這個法令這樣通過之後每個都要都要申報的話部長同一個區段同一個大樓"},{"start":6175.919,"end":6178.34,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":6194.224,"end":6194.764,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":6210.669,"end":6232.745,"text":"這會不會造成到時候租金上漲的一個壓力來源?部長擔不擔心?是,報告委員其實就是我剛剛在報告裡面跟大家提的我們在111年的時候邀集22個地方政府尤其是六都租客房租比較多的地方那他們地方政府也表達同樣的憂慮"},{"start":6234.206,"end":6234.326,"text":"租賃住宅法"},{"start":6253.163,"end":6262.229,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":6271.434,"end":6291.836,"text":"我們採取去識別化,然後可以保護個人資料的部分用區段式的來部分公佈,讓真正想要租屋的人或即將要租屋的年輕人知道他所想要去的區位大概的市場行情是多少,這樣子比較不會出現就是說前言或是前法跟後法上面的矛盾的差異。"},{"start":6293.037,"end":6320.597,"text":"部長你的看法我是支持的就像你剛剛說的如果要介入到很詳細的個資第一個會變成有些人我乾脆有房子不要出租好了我就放在那邊你會不會擔心有這種情況發生實際上你會不會有這種情況發生我相信一定會有啦一定會有而且我們在多次跟這個包租代管業者在座談當中也有聽到這樣的聲音"},{"start":6322.479,"end":6341.945,"text":"實際上確實會有這種事情發生所以我其實我的看法跟部長是有點相同我覺得租屋的這個市場要不要透明化我覺得我們要朝透明化的方向去走但如果一次走到"},{"start":6343.035,"end":6357.095,"text":"每一個介入到門牌號碼每一個的我覺得會讓很多本來想要出租的人打退堂鼓反而你很多房子我們要他出來的不見了他收回去的他不出租了所以我認為"},{"start":6358.337,"end":6387.298,"text":"今天這個法其實我認為啦要不要修或者是修別的法達到部長所說的就像我們那時候實價登錄我們是先從區塊開始我們一步一步來我覺得部長我們應該朝這個方向來努力讓他比如說這一個區塊的租屋行情大概是多少我讓要去租屋的人出租人跟成租人大概都有一個標準"},{"start":6388.098,"end":6406.015,"text":"但又不是一個絕對的對不對這樣有兩個好處第一個避免租金往上一直調一直調我跟你講如果這樣子像他們的修法我跟你講我可以去弄一間比較好一點的然後我把租金往上調高五千塊"},{"start":6407.585,"end":6409.288,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。"},{"start":6422.133,"end":6439.082,"text":"我們用區塊來做的,在不修法的情況下,做不做得到?是,我們依照剛剛委員的指示的方向,其實有做過研議,就是我們如果是去識別化,然後推動的是區域租金的行情,提供給租客或是房東來參考,就是他的行情不會是一個定碼,"},{"start":6442.003,"end":6444.224,"text":"租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃"},{"start":6471.271,"end":6471.671,"text":"李柏英委員"},{"start":6492,"end":6497.745,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條"},{"start":6518.769,"end":6535.821,"text":"未來要朝這個租金要朝透明化的方向去走這個大家都其實都同意但是怎麼走可以讓這個租金對所有的這個成住人來講是穩定的那"},{"start":6537.446,"end":6554.114,"text":"出租人跟成租人的關係是和諧的這個是我們希望要朝向透明化的這一個過程裡面希望的有這一個過程不是說變成我們要把這個透明化"},{"start":6555.097,"end":6581.562,"text":"那或者是申請租金補貼的這個過程來造成房客跟房東之間的緊張跟對立的關係其實我們的政策吼有一個內政部有一個政策就是租金補貼的政策其實讓大部分的人都很滿意而且申請租金補貼我之前也呃垂詢過呃林佑昌部長"},{"start":6583.382,"end":6611.824,"text":"申請租金補貼大部分的人申請的到但是來看一下下面最最有糾紛的地方在哪裡可能有糾紛的地方在哪裡第一個就是租金無法申報扣除所的第二個他們很擔心他這個所有的房東其實都很擔心就是契約家住不得申請租金補貼因為房東怕什麼房東怕被課稅"},{"start":6613.618,"end":6642.398,"text":"所以來我要請司長說明一下我們住宅法第三條、第十五條、第十六條的內容司長你可以說明一下這個內容嗎我們請那個沒關係讓司長講用他的觀點講住宅法裡面的剛剛委員提到那三條其實主要的部分當時就是去年通過了那個住宅法施行那個住宅法裡面很重要一點就是說"},{"start":6643.37,"end":6644.211,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":6663.755,"end":6681.545,"text":"房客有申請租金補貼但依照住宅法第三條、第十五條、第十六條他是排除稅捐積增法的第21條他不能作為追稅房東的依據但是房東還是會害怕"},{"start":6683.227,"end":6702.23,"text":"如果我們去執行租金全部實價登錄那房東不是怕死了第一個我房子不租了如果真的房子很多了第一個我房子不租了不租給人家了供給量少了租金就上來了第二個"},{"start":6703.871,"end":6732.262,"text":"真的實價登錄以後如果真的每一戶實價登錄以後這一棟大樓每一戶都給你漲價因為有一戶裝潢比較好嘛15樓租3萬12樓15樓租3萬我20樓怎麼可能租3萬以下會有這個心理會造成更多的這些可能租金的波動所以基於這個房租的這個穩定來講的話其實我們是主張"},{"start":6733.542,"end":6749.807,"text":"要部分的公布區塊的公布比如說美術館區巨蛋區他如果是三房的大概是多少錢那他的屋齡是多少大概是多少或是這一條路上這個捷運站附近的大概是多少"},{"start":6750.489,"end":6753.311,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。"},{"start":6768.244,"end":6783.98,"text":"這一個修法的討論可以實際上加惠到所有的租屋人我們其實也做了這個相關用租屋電費的這個新制那還是有一些問題我想要這邊再就教"},{"start":6784.98,"end":6811.089,"text":"如果我們從今年7月4號我們內政部自己整理我們的用電度數等等問題那如果以救濟來講的話如果這個合約租屋的合約走到一半房東不願意採取新的這個內政部其實也應該要有一個救濟的方式比如說我們現在租屋糾紛租屋有糾紛的時候去找誰?去找小保官"},{"start":6812.469,"end":6834.224,"text":"我其實一直想建議內政部遇到租屋有糾紛的時候既然我們有租屋補貼內政部是不是有一個專責的單位出來協調這個租屋的糾紛包含這個電費我們公佈實施之後如果這個合約契約是在進行當中房東不願意更改"},{"start":6834.924,"end":6858.893,"text":"那我們要怎麼樣去保護到我們的成租人還有剛剛所講的如果我們要公佈區域性的這些租金的話我們要怎麼樣維持這些房價的穩定這些都需要內政部做第一線而不是讓地方政府的小保官去處理來請次長做一個簡單的回應"},{"start":6860.618,"end":6882.159,"text":"有關於舊契約部分,我們當然不溯及既往,但是房客其實是可以討論。我希望內政部可以介入協助,不是交給小寶端。是不是可以公佈一個專責的單位,讓租客有遇到這些問題的時候就可以協助他們?地方地政局還有我們一些法輔的單位,我們都會協助介入。"},{"start":6884.021,"end":6885.261,"text":"主席,我們有請我們的內政部次長。好,有請董事長。"},{"start":6915.911,"end":6934.064,"text":"想要請教一下,因為我們的民眾黨一直都很注重居住正義這個議題而現在人民面臨的就是買不起又住不起等不到的困境回顧執政黨八年來,居住正義從來沒有實現過,一直以來"},{"start":6937.646,"end":6965.759,"text":"全世界最不正義房市就是我們臺灣房價所得比可以說節節一個升高所以買不到房子的負擔越來越大在買不起和等不到的狀況下民眾只能退而求其棄租屋但租屋市場不但資訊不足不透明更沒有居住品質的保障形成租屋黑市"},{"start":6966.946,"end":6983.751,"text":"所以租屋黑市是否透過全面推動租屋實際登錄來改善,或者是推動有爭議,是否逐步的推動的可能,跨出健全租屋市場的第一步。好,謝謝委員垂詢。我想"},{"start":6989.366,"end":7017.516,"text":"本部的立場從過去到現在一直是如此就是我們在推動居住正義這件事情上是不遺餘力而且我們跟民眾站在一起我們希望讓整個國家的住宅政策是透明化而且是公平的那基於這樣的原則之下我們當然非常樂意接受許多來自民間跟委員們的建議我們希望透過逐步的方式來讓整個市場能夠比較健全那在這個健全的推動過程裡面呢"},{"start":7017.956,"end":7031.705,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條文修正草案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展"},{"start":7047.094,"end":7075.3,"text":"出租者他本身因為資訊的不對稱或等等他會擔心而他把房子就空下來不租了這反而會擠壓到住宅市場而且造成住宅市場的不公所以我們希望能夠透過逐步的方式一步一步的引導大家往一個社會的共識然後資訊的逐步透明化讓年輕人讓有需要的人能夠在完整的一個相對清楚的資訊之下獲得最佳的房子"},{"start":7076.044,"end":7100.023,"text":"是,所以三屆在進行就是租收租宅市場發展及管理條例協商時確定包租業和房東定在包租企業進行的實價登錄,所以現在的法規就僅將就是包租的有納入實際登錄,但是代管的"},{"start":7100.743,"end":7122.661,"text":"租屋越來越多,甚至經過包租的兩三倍了。這樣子的租屋市場的狀況,內政部是否是全面張包租貸款就納入登錄呢?所以沒有看到,所以大家有看到這個數據。所以更進一步來說,就是房東還有房屋的"},{"start":7123.379,"end":7140.179,"text":"租給的租金,就是說公益租屋的人房東享有政府給予的優惠,但是因此更多的義務也給合法的範圍,內政部認為公益租屋的是否也應該實際登錄。這個部分。"},{"start":7143.905,"end":7173.22,"text":"跟委員報告,謝謝委員垂詢。那麼委員所提到的就是說包租貸管的部分在設宅的部分我們包租與貸管都已經納入實價登錄的系統裡面所以我們現在只要是所以兩個都有登錄嗎?對現在因為我們在看到的只有就是包租有登錄但是貸管是沒有看到實質的登錄我們都有,包租設宅的包租與貸管我們都有納入登錄體系這也是我們剛才所強調的"},{"start":7174,"end":7174.06,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":7192.199,"end":7220.037,"text":"民進黨過去的執政期間臺灣就是面臨就是多經濟的挑戰但是其中就是暴漲就是不論是年輕人還是我們的壯世代就是普遍感受到就是房價帶來的壓力社會住宅提供不足的讓大家普遍的關心的問題所以現在面臨的狀況政府一直宣布就是在打房所以呢在政治"},{"start":7220.777,"end":7241.289,"text":"上就是漲價因此我們希望內政部在掌握當下的房價的走勢是所回落還是說在漲價所以政府相關的政策是否何時實際的影響到現在的房價的狀況是漲還是漲呢"},{"start":7244.349,"end":7245.17,"text":"所以現在是我們的房價是漲價還是漲價?"},{"start":7267.263,"end":7293.416,"text":"房價基本上是要回歸到市場的需求那臺灣在過去這幾年因為我們的經濟的發展所以相關的我們因為經濟的發展的關係所以市場的狀況他當然因為油資的過多他有一些發展但是內政部跟行政院我們其實有積極的許多的政策主張以及政策的實施讓整個房價有一個穩定性的狀態我們目前就是在推薦推"},{"start":7294.817,"end":7322.031,"text":"推廣了就是說我們現在的新清安貸款這個部分但是目前我們在臺灣薪資所得的就是只有50萬左右而已但是呢說50%民眾薪資所得的中微數但是每年只有50萬左右但這個舉例來說臺北市現在的新建案就是單價就將近120萬了"},{"start":7324.492,"end":7334.478,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":7340.882,"end":7357.45,"text":"所以這樣子的一個方案新金安的貸款這樣子的方案對年輕人是真正的有幫助嗎還是有創造他們更多的負擔還有創造更多的中古屋變成是漲價"},{"start":7359.885,"end":7362.927,"text":"這個部分我們希望就是我們內政部這邊要重視要怎麼樣更符合我們年輕人的口袋還有他的薪資這個部分要請我們的市長要去努力"},{"start":7389.645,"end":7390.525,"text":"主席"},{"start":7416.793,"end":7418.594,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":7435.026,"end":7453.293,"text":"那其實過去啊都知道說這個在租屋市場裡面可能會因為租屋族怕房東漲租就不敢爭取應有的權利但我知道說這幾年其實我們很努力包括說租屋族其實只要拿著他的租賃契約就可以跟我們政府來申請租屋補貼"},{"start":7455.054,"end":7460.615,"text":"那其實就有很多程序不需要說還要跟房東在這邊有什麼他們礙於房東的壓力所以導致說怕他變相漲價所以就不敢跟房東說他們要拿這個去申請補貼的事情這是我們過去已經做到的但是現在當然就要進一步的談怎麼讓租屋的黑市再更加的資訊"},{"start":7478.999,"end":7479.3,"text":"市場的透明"},{"start":7490.339,"end":7509.15,"text":"那跟委員報告,我們依據我們相關的經濟業管理條例,那我們現在目前,不動產經濟業者或者是居間代理成交的租賃都應該要實價申報。所以這部分就是說,他只要是包租代管的業者等等,他們的資訊就一定要公開。這是我們目前法令的規定。那"},{"start":7510.911,"end":7523.615,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":7535.139,"end":7550.358,"text":"讓民眾可以了解租賃市場的狀態因為我們也要跟委員跟大家報告租賃市場是一個多元複雜的每一個人想要租的房子形態不一樣區位不一樣包括每一個房間的房型不一樣那變動性也很多因為有人租短期有人租長期"},{"start":7550.979,"end":7570.632,"text":"所以我們在整個登錄的過程裡面,如果我們Lockate的到每一個住戶本身,事實上他會有一些資訊的不對稱性跟一個資訊的短暫性的不穩定那這些不穩定就會造成市場上的資訊的模糊跟錯亂那這些資訊錯亂就會造成有心者他去操弄這個房價"},{"start":7571.773,"end":7596.541,"text":"反而造成對年輕人來講這個租屋市場的更加的不公平所以我們希望說透過區間一個比較穩定性的概念那麼讓大家有一個參考值透過這個參考值來做進行的一些相關的判斷怎麼樣租賃那事實上在國外這也是行之有年的方法我們希望說能夠透過這樣的方式逐步逐步的讓我們的租屋市場透明化公平性都能夠達到"},{"start":7597.349,"end":7602.732,"text":"好,所以這樣子的你們預計要公佈的這種區間式的資訊什麼時候會公佈?跟委員報告,我想目前我們也會來整理這個資料,那我們盡量"},{"start":7615.39,"end":7634.205,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":7644.013,"end":7645.215,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7660.816,"end":7661.376,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":7677.441,"end":7688.332,"text":"而這個資訊其實是區段間的好處是在於說因為每個人想要出租的房型或者是每個租屋的人想要居住的房型形態不一樣時間長短就我剛剛講時間長短也不一樣沒錯有人短租有人長租然後有些就是他其實因為租屋的確實他需要的需求就會很細緻是這樣沒錯"},{"start":7697.421,"end":7722.306,"text":"那也跟委員報告事實上我們從去年開始我們也補助各大學從大學生18歲開始那他住學校宿舍或什麼我們也都鼓勵他們可以申請甚至我們就直接補貼那很多大學也都配合所以在這個過程裡面事實上許多大學生都有受到許多的那個幫助我想這個都是我們在整個居住正義政策裡面我們逐步逐步要來落實的一件事情"},{"start":7722.626,"end":7740.752,"text":"好謝謝次長那我也希望說在這個公開的過程當中千萬不能讓房東把成本再次轉嫁到消費者身上那另外一件事情也是提醒說我們在公開的過程還是要鼓勵這一些房東做公益的出租因為我們還是希望降低空房率空污率"},{"start":7741.893,"end":7758.965,"text":"我們還是鼓勵這些擁有房子的人盡量的把房子拿出來使用那這個活化率是很重要的所以我希望同時兼顧這兩件事我們在住宅法裡面也明確說明了那整個的那個出租者公益出租者他基本上他是享有一定的免稅額而且會有一些適當的保障"},{"start":7760.046,"end":7760.186,"text":"好,謝謝次長。"},{"start":7783.186,"end":7783.546,"text":"請董事長"},{"start":7808.556,"end":7829.249,"text":"市長好我們時間短短我們直接進入我想今天大家真的關心的這個問題就是不准是任何世代只要是有租屋需求的民眾都非常的希望能夠知道如何能夠讓這個市場能夠更透明化讓大家能夠租到理想的房子並且是用心中想要的價錢"},{"start":7830.309,"end":7858.962,"text":"那可是我們這樣來看其實這幾年這八年小英政府的時代其實做了非常非常多的政策引導在這段期間我們主要是用鼓勵的方式所以在我看起來其實是用了這個不管是實價登錄的部分或者是包租代管的部分然後尤其是租金補貼的部分主要是用租金補貼的部分來引導大家你有登錄的把這個約租約拿出來的我就給你補助用鼓勵的方式來那你看這樣的"},{"start":7859.602,"end":7880.684,"text":"有效契約的涵蓋率以這個全國和六都來看這幾年確確實實是大幅提高以這個數據來看每個幾乎都是成長甚至是兩倍到三倍的狀況這個圖市長同意嗎是這個確實是大幅的提高好那你覺得呢我剛剛是說這是用有效政策獎勵政策來引導那你覺得主要的原因是什麼"},{"start":7881.264,"end":7907.059,"text":"我想整個的那個契約涵蓋率能夠提高最重要原因還是在於說政府我們修訂了住宅法之後我們讓大家有一個免稅額那也讓租屋市場比較透明化最重要的事情是房東他自己本身也不需要花很多精力去照顧因為我們包租代管業者這個產業非常成熟是好那可是這樣子來看啊你看這樣我們把六多六個直轄市一排排出來很明顯的雙北是最低的"},{"start":7907.839,"end":7933.568,"text":"就算我們一樣是在雙北也有成長喔可是成長的幅度不但不如其他的四都而且是在六都裡面明顯的是非常低的至少少了20%啊那所以你覺得你又怎麼看這個部分因為坦白講租屋市場最有需要的就是雙北地區啊所以我們覺得這個政策有效但雙北是低的那你現在有什麼解方"},{"start":7934.946,"end":7963.526,"text":"我想雙北地區的房價第一個他的房價跟他的那個租屋的市場的狀態可能有一些跟其他地方比起來比較不完整不完整的地方包括說他的居住環境空間可能使得房東他覺得他並不想要參與這樣的一個市場的登記或者是參與包租代管業的登記因為這個涉及到市場的房型等等所以他覺得說他透過其他的方式可以獲得"},{"start":7964.326,"end":7984.846,"text":"那另外一個當然就是說有效契約的涵蓋的狀況也來自於說整個包租代管業者他能介入的程度多少也就是說這個地方的租屋市場的需求量很大大到業者本身就是租出租人本身他不需要別人介入他自己就可以親手去看一個東西他就有人買那個要租"},{"start":7987.629,"end":7997.613,"text":"市長我覺得你這個回答非常的誠實而且誠意啦所以我把時間留給你讓你講完但是你用正面的語句描述了這樣的狀況我們也不得不承認這就是表示還有問題嘛表示還有問題"},{"start":8003.576,"end":8032.494,"text":"那所以在這樣還有問題的下面來講你看我從前面一開始先鼓勵你們說你們這個政策不錯有效引導所以提高很多但是接下來我就告訴你雙北還是有狀況好那所以我們的獎勵手段已經出鏡了嗎還有沒有更多的手段可以用呢還是如同今天我們要討論的我坦白講話鋒一轉就是到今天國民黨團或者是有委員提出的版本其實就是在胡蘿蔔用盡之後他現在要開始用棒子要拿出來了"},{"start":8033.354,"end":8037.379,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8051.836,"end":8071.776,"text":"還有這支棒子也就是國民黨團他們提出來的版本這樣對我們的問題真的能夠解決嗎還是又產生了新的問題因為過去我們在講這個包租代管把合約拿出來或者是租金補貼的時候其實考量到很大的一部分除了行政實際上可不可行能不能夠"},{"start":8072.817,"end":8090.342,"text":"有效的拿出來還是說法律定一定其實大家根本市場做不到這是一個另外一個就是曾租雙方租賃雙方的關係也是大家必須要考慮的這是我們能夠想到的那次長我請你回答這個問題現在是拿出棒子的時候了嗎我們今天要討論的是他們的版本當中這個棒子合用合規嗎真的能解決問題嗎請作答"},{"start":8096.684,"end":8097.545,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":8126.844,"end":8152.941,"text":"租屋市場是一個自由經濟市場沒錯這個自由經濟市場當你拿出胡蘿…當你拿出胡蘿蔔的時候它意願比較高對當你拿出棍子的時候它就轉入地下化它的地下化程度會更高因為它不需要是它不需要政府的介入或者不需要什麼它就可以自己做一些事情所以很多時候站在我們的立場是我們會期待的事情是我們透過更多的鼓勵然後政策的積極的介入是讓更多的業者去搜尋這些相關的"},{"start":8154.102,"end":8154.202,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":8172.797,"end":8192.894,"text":"反而導致情況更惡劣嗎?這都是很有可能的事情啦所以說實在的我們今天在討論這個政策需要非常細緻的原因而且要把利弊都能夠兩邊呈現在所有民眾的面前我們只是民意代表而已啊我們也不可能有天眾英明完成的所有一次問題在這裡解決但"},{"start":8194.295,"end":8209.163,"text":"我認為從這個表單來看我們可以很清楚看到過去的獎勵政策是有效的是大幅度有效的所以我個人認為反而會是既然它有效而且促進是多方關係良善那麼反而我們是不是應該把力氣花在雙北地方"},{"start":8210.163,"end":8229.6,"text":"有效的政策可以更大推廣會比今天修法以後陷入強制關係這種裁罰關係的修法會比較適當這是我的意見啦也請等一下如果我們有機會討論主條的時候也請內政部多表示意見是謝謝委員追尋謝謝好謝謝橋惠委員的質詢謝謝也謝謝次長和司長接下來我們請王美惠委員質詢"},{"start":8240.956,"end":8245.428,"text":"主席、南鄉政事及市長有請董事長以及我市長"},{"start":8248.766,"end":8258.429,"text":"委員長,今天要為您探討的是租屋市場的透明化。今天是要討論租賃,但在本社要告訴您,在買賣房屋、實價登錄,我們已經14、12年了。你認為這個14、12年對我們的買賃"},{"start":8278.462,"end":8280.866,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之三條文"},{"start":8286.572,"end":8300.806,"text":"你感覺的?跟委員報告,我想整個的住宅市場在整個實價登錄的過程裡面,它提供給大家的是一個完整的資訊,就是說每個區塊的資訊。沒有啦,當然,我現在如果你說實質的登錄嘛,一定是實質的啦。我現在是說,我們的用意就是要讓這裡的房子可以發射嘛。"},{"start":8311.897,"end":8314.938,"text":"結果我覺得沒有,在這十二年的規定當中,沒有那麼熟,又那麼貴,每天開始報告,這個區長開始差不多一千萬,現在又兩三個月,又一千多萬。"},{"start":8331.31,"end":8338.155,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員"},{"start":8354.919,"end":8355.38,"text":"主席"},{"start":8371.02,"end":8373.002,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":8389.381,"end":8418.608,"text":"到租賃期間當然就是說他有一些關係但是這個關係基本上就取決於更大的市場但是公佈的過程裡面當然就是說我們的主動公平性就是說公平性怎麼創造資訊公開怎麼創造才不會讓大家去做一些變動但是我們不可否認在整個租屋市場在整個一開始的公佈的過程裡面我們會難免會去發現到有些人就是會透過不同的契約模式不同的登記的方法"},{"start":8419.048,"end":8421.869,"text":"因為我先跟你說的是說我們是要公佈因為租賃的人不是像買房子的說到我買來不一定14人買一間而已租賃有時候要三個月半天、一天、兩天"},{"start":8435.214,"end":8451.644,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":8459.528,"end":8462.229,"text":"因為每一個人都希望如果稍微稍微好,但我們有必要做什麼,大家互相探討啦。現在我是要跟你請教說,你說要公佈啦各位,是要我們中央公佈,還是要地方政府來公佈啦。"},{"start":8482.298,"end":8492.225,"text":"來當然是我們內政部來公佈啦這樣齁因為所有的資料要在我們家做去識別化喔好來我們政治 文學哥來你請教如果說專門要透明化的時候在這兩天外你如果有空 還有管理 雷射聲的時候大家都不來齁"},{"start":8506.116,"end":8525.373,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":8529.925,"end":8537.272,"text":"給委員報告,我們之前110...沒有啦,之前我知道兩黨,我知道大家都反對,現在目前我們今天要討論,在你們接到今天要討論的時候,你們有想所有的官司再問一次說,要如何協助我呢?"},{"start":8551.984,"end":8560.75,"text":"不是說叫他們全部都來問一次,但是我在今年四月開會的時候,其實那種討論的時候,他們有來討論一些問題的時候,也有稍微問一下,想要問問說,如果要全面施加登錄這部分,這部分他們也是都沒辦法。"},{"start":8572.429,"end":8598.992,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":8599.895,"end":8605.003,"text":"到今年的年底後,未來我們還有租金的補貼嗎?有沒有?來,感覺有?"},{"start":8613.376,"end":8627.191,"text":"主席在一分鐘時間,抱歉,在這裏面正是剛才有很多我們的董事有講過,住宅法在第三條、十五條、十六條的,有說免稅改移提出的"},{"start":8633.118,"end":8654.725,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":8662.844,"end":8663.184,"text":"租賃主席"},{"start":8671.074,"end":8697.06,"text":"審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十"},{"start":8700.881,"end":8710.268,"text":"有要回答嗎?來30秒因為一開始是接到的,同樣對到他的租金應該是說,因為我們現在有其他的專案查核那專案查核裡面,那我們是針對那一個屋主個人那他屋主個人如果是比較持有多戶的話那我們是針對他那一個人不是啦,我現在就是,你說他孩子如果租了"},{"start":8728.701,"end":8742.232,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8748.336,"end":8748.737,"text":"主席董事長"},{"start":8778.991,"end":8781.192,"text":"租賃市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8799.02,"end":8814.93,"text":"整體就是說整體臺灣的租屋的人數跟現在實價登錄的這個租金的這個比例大概是你們已經掌握到多少的比例多少的百分比是現在已經有這個實價登錄的部分"},{"start":8816.287,"end":8834.874,"text":"那跟委員報告,目前我們根據人口統計資料,我們國內目前應該有大概87萬戶左右的出租戶。那這個87萬戶左右的出租戶,我們透過不同的管道,包括已經收集到的租賃的一些實價登錄,因為包括代管這些社宅的部分,"},{"start":8835.094,"end":8839.356,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":8857.496,"end":8877.818,"text":"我講有效企業就是112年的話這個有效企業我們掌握到的實價登錄有9萬4千筆全部65萬只有9萬多掌握嗎那65萬裡面有56萬是租金補貼的資訊56萬是租金補貼是然後其他9萬是包租代管對好 謝謝"},{"start":8882.247,"end":8896.668,"text":"其實內政部還蠻用心的其實這樣的比例看起來是還蠻不錯的當然還有一些我相信是內政部沒有辦法掌握的一些資料那我請問一下部長其實為什麼沒辦法掌握的最大原因是什麼嗎?"},{"start":8897.774,"end":8901.658,"text":"所以第一個就是房東不願意申報就是租金的問題所以我這邊我有做一個公式給你看"},{"start":8920.234,"end":8940,"text":"現在坊間大家最重視的,如果這個房東一個月的租金三萬塊,如果他房東有做租金補貼跟沒有做租金補貼,我請教一下政事,這個一個會計數學題,他如果這個申報的話,這個租金申報的話,他實拿要拿多少錢?"},{"start":8940.74,"end":8960.491,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":8965.194,"end":8990.154,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":8994.898,"end":9006.612,"text":"他可以拿出來就像剛剛講的這個數量56萬跟9萬那我想要請教的9萬的部分是包租代管56萬是公益出租人可是他們要繳的稅負卻是不一致的"},{"start":9007.168,"end":9025.382,"text":"所以剛剛這個政事有特別提到9萬的包租代管他能扣掉的這個所得稅的費用率是60%可是高達56%的公益出租人就是現在社會上有非常多需要租金補貼的所有的辛苦的一些補優學生他們"},{"start":9026.323,"end":9029.725,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":9046.488,"end":9068.7,"text":"好,我請我們國土署的同仁做一個說明好,謝謝大家的確有意思嘛,對不對對,這個部分我們的確有發現有這個問題那我們也將演繹,正在進行演繹將來來修正、修法,謝謝好,謝謝齁,那今天很開心喔我也要感謝召委啦今天擺盤真的非常辛苦才有辦法召開這個會議喔其實就是要實質的討論喔然後去發現說56萬的公益出租的房東喔"},{"start":9073.803,"end":9096.155,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":9097.418,"end":9098.359,"text":"租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃"},{"start":9126.85,"end":9141.48,"text":"有關於電價的部分我們已經在行政院合訂了新的那個定型契約那這個定型契約我們在7月8號開始已經公告那在7月15號會正式上路我們上路的過程之後呢我們就會明確訂定"},{"start":9142.32,"end":9144.661,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":9158.047,"end":9162.851,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":9181.824,"end":9182.867,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":9189.878,"end":9216.131,"text":"我們會那個請小 就是說只要大家在那個契約簽訂之後那認為這個租金有不實 那麼他就可以去跟小保官申訴那我們也有那個法服 新市政府的相關的法服也都可以提供這些相關的說明跟那個那另外我們也會在我們的網站上面放上這些相關的QA還有一些新型的定型化契約的資料那提供所有的租租人做參考"},{"start":9216.823,"end":9222.474,"text":"好,好,謝謝,那再麻煩你們繼續再,這剛剛提到的問題幫我解決一下,謝謝。好,謝謝張志倫委員的質詢,謝謝,也謝謝次長、市長。好,我們休息三分鐘,謝謝。"},{"start":9600.184,"end":9600.664,"text":"主席董事長"},{"start":9626.411,"end":9642.08,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及"},{"start":9654.467,"end":9676.585,"text":"規定也都引起廠商的質疑都認為有讀後某個廠商的嫌疑再加上去年的審計部審核111年度的內政部住都中心會計報表發現住都中心預計新建約7萬戶的社會住宅有高估租金低估建築費用跟管理費用的問題所以截至112年經費虧損將高達近3000億"},{"start":9681.309,"end":9703.162,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":9707.245,"end":9722.559,"text":"有關於委員所提到的這兩則相關的新聞我們都已經請政風處進行調查相關的調查報告出來的話我們會奉部長呈示看如何我們再跟對外公布"},{"start":9723.021,"end":9745.123,"text":"所以說,內政部也認為這確實有很大的問題嗎?沒有,我們的重點是這樣,就是只要大家有疑義,那我們就請政風來瞭解。那預計什麼時候會有這樣子的一個政風調查出來?因為其實你看到現在,我現在看指出來這幾項其實問題都非常嚴重喔。是,我們儘快,因為政風調查還有它的程序。"},{"start":9746.537,"end":9751.925,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9761.537,"end":9762.258,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":9796.903,"end":9811.039,"text":"首先跟委員報告永續債的部分事實上只是在研議階段而且是相關的銀行業者他們自行的評估那住宅中心目前並還沒有確認要進行這件事情那本部也還在商議當中"},{"start":9812.394,"end":9837.97,"text":"因為現在看起來就是我們現在25萬戶的社會住宅的這個政見因為我們看到下一張表你可以看到目前完工的其實只有3萬戶那規劃中的有將近2萬戶也就是說真正完工才3萬戶那如果以25萬戶的目標的話未來還要興建13萬戶請問一下分年完成的期程如何未來4年會完成幾戶"},{"start":9839.335,"end":9859.353,"text":"那我請那個住宅組的同仁做完整的說明是不是簡單的說明一下因為時間的關係謝謝委員那這個部分我們現在就是包括一、生活圈統籌規劃還有多元取得設宅的方式還有透過整體開發區域取得設宅土地那預計每年大概增加1.1萬戶為目標然後最後一年會有2.5萬戶所以預計這13戶在這個1、2、1年預計來達成以上"},{"start":9866.069,"end":9866.689,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":9884.878,"end":9885.238,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":9907.241,"end":9926.113,"text":"的檢舉或者是申報租金補貼所導致的。那弱勢的房客因為社會經濟會劇烈失沒有房子必須要租屋維生。如果有租金補貼可以讓生活好一點。所以請問部長目前我看目前剛剛的報告是說反對實價登錄嗎?剛剛部長其實是不理是反對實價登錄是嗎?"},{"start":9930.117,"end":9951.277,"text":"我們的政策是這樣就是說我們正在居住正義的立場我們希望讓市場的透明化這點跟各位委員是一致的只是市場透明化的過程裡面我們希望透過一些漸進式的方式避免對市場做最大的擾動因為如果我們快速的通過的時候它會造成有一些業者像這邊講的他可能就不願意把房子拿出來了"},{"start":9951.937,"end":9953.478,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":9971.187,"end":9984.198,"text":"那也跟委員報告其實每個人的租房是租屋的內容也不太一樣有人要住豪宅式的房子有人住要雅房有人只要簡單的套房這些都會造成街市場的問題因為最近國稅局也在講說要展開為期兩年的查核"},{"start":9987.12,"end":10012.739,"text":"預定要對房東開始查逃漏稅的問題那當然如果這樣的話不是代表說也有可能引起一些糾紛嗎也有可能房東和房客的信任值也會因為這樣子來打破所以我覺得如果沒有辦法你剛講的這個部分沒有辦法說實施租賃的實價登錄那我們是不是可以先從政府所主導的包租代管或者是社會住宅先來實行"},{"start":10014.14,"end":10043.017,"text":"目前我們的政策就是希望說逐步逐步把我們目前手上所擁有的一些資訊我們慢慢的做整理這部分我請市長來做一個更完整的說明各位報告我們目前的那個設宅的包租代管的實價登錄都有落實都有執行這是設宅的部分都有做那包租代管呢包租代管的部分我們去年修法了就是說轉租的部分我們目前也納入"},{"start":10043.669,"end":10044.59,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":10063.309,"end":10080.502,"text":"在不修法的狀態之下那我們透過行政的方式把這個居住正義這件事情把它達到因為修法會造成我們再一次跟各位委員報告修法還是希望就是內政部要針對這個居住正義那也待會我們會充分的討論好不好謝謝好非常謝謝徐議政委員的質詢謝謝謝謝次長謝謝司長繼續我們請黃建斌委員質詢"},{"start":10098.596,"end":10101.837,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條"},{"start":10127.683,"end":10149.977,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":10154.62,"end":10181.566,"text":"請問我們內政部是否願意支持本席的這個爭取呢?好,我請市長做完整回覆,謝謝。好,謝謝委員。這個部分那個測量人員也就包括助理包括A股人員以及我們的正式的測量編制類測量人員的這個加薪的這個部分目前我們從去年已經有研議那今年也有研議那事實上目前的整個方案也有報到行政院"},{"start":10182.363,"end":10210.828,"text":"好,謝謝我們內政部這邊的認同本席也希望市長能夠儘速的跟我們行政院來溝通那讓新增調整的這個案子能夠早日完成那有需要協助的地方本席一定全力的支持一起提升我們基層公務人員的這個待遇那好,因為會問到這個是因為最近我們討論的時間越來越少那會期快結束只好利用這樣的時間來跟各位來反映那我們希望未來能夠在討論上能夠更順暢會能夠更順暢進行那我們就回到今天討論的議題"},{"start":10212.228,"end":10241.608,"text":"那我想今天針對我們租賃條例的討論我想還是要表達許多租主的心聲我想現在的明年新年不是討論買不買得起房而是先求能夠租得起這個房我想問市長你知道今年房價漲多少嗎今年房價漲多少現在市場的Value不一定所以要看區塊那知道今年的房價房租漲多少嗎"},{"start":10243.507,"end":10243.567,"text":"租賃租賃"},{"start":10258.767,"end":10283.427,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":10284.568,"end":10296.495,"text":"其中對我們租客來講除了考慮地段以外屋領這部分也是很重要的因素嘛對不對那我們台北市中央區委員會在實價登錄的網站裡面一年來我們有571筆的資料裡面有210筆的屋領都是領"},{"start":10302.605,"end":10306.687,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之四條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":10327.635,"end":10342.586,"text":"蔡英文總統在2016年提出的這個防事三件的政策裡面其中有一個就是在講到現權租屋體系我想請問現在三件當時的三件現在設到什麼地方既然我們過去民進黨八年執政都沒有做的部分我們國民黨來做嗎"},{"start":10344.685,"end":10373.079,"text":"我們這次修法的重點有三個部分第一個就是強化我們租賃市場的透明化我要保障租客的權益第二個就是我們不動產實價登錄的目的是為了避免賣方的壟斷當初政府推出不動產實價登錄的目的不就是為了避免人為的烘台房價嗎那為什麼現在對我們租屋的實價登錄卻讓租屋節節的升高我們內政部的書面報告根本就是互相自相矛盾這我也反對我也反對那第三個"},{"start":10374.703,"end":10395.374,"text":"買賣登錄是不時可以來罰為什麼租屋就不可以為什麼針對我們買屋政府就願意用罰款的方式來保障那對於租賃的市場卻是兩手一攤這根本是雙重標準最後這邊我跟市長市長在那份提出的這個書面報告裡面提到將透過已收集到的租賃實價登錄包括"},{"start":10397.115,"end":10414.226,"text":"包租代管及租金補貼的資料,會儘速辦理區域租金行情等相關統計分析,並適時的對外發布。這一段話過去內政部在8年前已經說過了,那現在進度在哪裡?多久可以給外界報告?我想請市長回答。市長"},{"start":10416.481,"end":10416.981,"text":"根委員報告"},{"start":10431.848,"end":10432.449,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":10456.485,"end":10467.334,"text":"租屋補貼、租金補貼、直接興建跟包租代管。事實上我們已經在一定程度上讓整個居住市場有一定的穩定性。"},{"start":10467.864,"end":10491.028,"text":"那當然隨著國家的經濟的成長跟發展在一定程度上我們的因為經濟成長好所以他對租金對整個租屋市場都有一些推動這我們不可否認所以我們會進一步的去透過不同的方式跟管道那包括委員所提到的我們透過漸進式的方式我們讓租屋市場能夠公開透明好謝謝董事長謝謝主席謝謝委員好謝謝監兵委員謝謝次長繼續我們請吳啟明召委"},{"start":10502.923,"end":10505.148,"text":"主席以及議會同仁請我們內政部處長有請總次長"},{"start":10516.002,"end":10541.034,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":10542.074,"end":10567.512,"text":"因為社會住宅的需求需求量都非常的高尤其抽籤率的比例都還是偏低做差不多兩成那對一些年輕人對一些沒有房子的居住爭議這是我們政府要去推動那大家都知道我們在都會區裡面的房子房價都過高"},{"start":10568.513,"end":10593.958,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":10594.986,"end":10612.462,"text":"唯一就是找我們公家的土地這適度是最快因為有很多土地我們還是需要說我們中央跟地方來合作目前要達到這25萬戶真的你要是沒有跟地方來合作的話"},{"start":10613.063,"end":10613.584,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":10629.462,"end":10652.362,"text":"好,那先跟委員報告,我們在未來整個整體開發的過程裡面呢,我們直接興建的社宅,直接興建的社宅,因為社宅政策包括包租貸款,包括租金補貼跟直接興建。直接興建的部分委員比較關心的,那我們未來會用透過整體開發的方式,包括市地重劃跟區段徵收的過程裡面,我們也希望能夠提供3到5%的社宅的土地的提供。"},{"start":10653.102,"end":10680.516,"text":"這已經奉准行政院合定之後我們就會實施那至於相關在那個整個新北市的部分我請我們國債組的同仁說明一下好的委員好就是說在新北市的部分像我們在11年合定的目標是3萬3千戶那目前已經達成了2萬331戶那其中中央的部分這個"},{"start":10682.188,"end":10688.296,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":10701.665,"end":10702.565,"text":"新北市新莊重劃區文拉準面積大5%"},{"start":10722.511,"end":10750.132,"text":"這個土地有沒有辦法取得?我們已經跟新北市在進行討論當中,那我們也希望透過那個跟新北市的協商找到這5%的左右的土地。那新北市政府現在承諾跟我們進行討論。那這堆沒問題吧?我們就陸續我們持續討論中。因為新莊我們那邊啊,那邊的土地好幾百公頃啊。那未來包含我們的大甘嶺,大甘嶺這個地方也好幾百公頃。"},{"start":10751.041,"end":10777.925,"text":"那你要是能取得5%的話我們這速度才會快這一定要跟地方政府來做協調我們會跟地方政府合作因為這是創造雙贏啦相信新北市他也會同意啦因為畢竟新北市很多年輕人大家要取得現在要去購買一間房子大家都知道你一坪差不多多少錢以你們我看你們準不準以我們土層好了啦"},{"start":10779.42,"end":10779.64,"text":"租賃住宅"},{"start":10795.146,"end":10796.147,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":10819.793,"end":10836.661,"text":"你以一般基層的像勞動階級的你根本你要去付我們所訂出來的價格他們還是受不了那你政府的免疫就會變消失了我們政府是要照顧這一些弱勢的"},{"start":10837.361,"end":10837.621,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":10860.575,"end":10863.237,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10879.369,"end":10879.549,"text":"警察局、消防局、"},{"start":10894.923,"end":10910.231,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":10912.211,"end":10933.43,"text":"對,這就是我們的目標,我們未來的目標,一定要朝這個方向,好不好?這是地方大家的需求,真的,兩成,兩成齁,抽籤的比例真的不高阿!是,是,我們的健康,我們的健康。好,謝謝,謝謝。非常謝謝吳清明召委,謝謝,謝謝董事長。司長,繼續我們請劉許廷委員。"},{"start":10942.406,"end":10944.53,"text":"次長有請謝謝主席好 次長吳安 辛苦了"},{"start":10953.157,"end":10978.507,"text":"用這個質詢的時間因為時間比較短針對法條的細節待會有主條討論的時間我們再來一一細究但今天在質詢的時候主要我們要表述的是政策邏輯的問題就是說推動居住正義除了現在政府正在努力的就大幅增加社會住宅的供給量之外其實應該是多管齊下因為你大幅增加社會住宅的邏輯叫做弱勢照顧的邏輯叫做社會福利的邏輯對不對"},{"start":10980.053,"end":10998.735,"text":"沒有 我想我們社會住宅的增加是三支鍵包租代管租金補貼對 我跟你講這些是不是都是在增加社宅的提供增供給量我們在增加社宅的提供給量那社宅不會只僅是社會福利的部分它是一個廣泛性的對於所有居住使用者的需求我們要增加今天我們第一學期中委員在這裡他可以租社宅嗎"},{"start":11000.275,"end":11000.716,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":11020.618,"end":11046.886,"text":"已經變形了,已經變態了。對不對?在購屋市場,房地產金融化,變成操作。對,很多人的需求,變成人家可以做金融槓桿可以操作的金融化商品。所以房價高到,剛剛土層一坪70萬,我這邊歸山也不遑多讓啊。從當初合一住宅的15萬,現在A7重劃區已經是50萬了。15萬變50萬了。那多可怕的一件事。好,這是購屋市場。那麼租屋市場最大的挑戰,其實就是非常的不透明嘛。"},{"start":11047.546,"end":11068.584,"text":"因為我們始終不太敢真的我講我們今天話就潑到底了本期當選民意代表就是要言所當言我們始終不敢面對大家沒有辦法入室申報入室課稅沒有辦法建立市場秩序以至於租屋黑市啊讓很多的房東具有收取超額利潤的空間嘛對不對這就是問題所以我們希望政府在推動居住生意相關政策的時候我們絕對支持大力支持"},{"start":11069.184,"end":11093.153,"text":"大幅提供社宅給最需要的人有幫助但是其他方面的政策邏輯你也要多管齊下我們今天做修法的理由其實比較的重點是在於推動市場的正常化這個內政部前面來跟我們溝通的時候有講嘛我們現在包租代管的總數量大概10萬件左右對不對這個包租25000件代管金75000件左右對不對那我想請問一下他們走的社宅邏輯的總共多少"},{"start":11096.291,"end":11123.682,"text":"也就是說我加入包租貸款但是我是提供社宅也就是我用相對低廉的租金然後限制身份可以承租這樣的數字是多少?剛剛委員提的那個數字的話都是社宅的包租貸款對 總共多少戶嘛?社 包租加量總共十萬戶嘛加入社宅這個政策總共多少戶?我如果用應該算是用"},{"start":11125.387,"end":11140.075,"text":"就包租代管欸你們這樣資料查太慢了九萬七千戶啦對不對然後有三千戶左右是一般人一般住宅走包租代管對不對對那是不是表示你你現在包租代管的十萬戶所謂的成效大部分還是增加了社會住宅的供給量是的是嗎"},{"start":11140.675,"end":11164.754,"text":"可是我們今天修法的重點不是增加社會住宅供給量而是讓一般市場也可以逐步走向正常化換言之這政策設計的邏輯剛剛很多包含內政部來報告的時候包含其他黨委員在質詢的時候有提出若干的一些質疑但我要講如果大家討論的邏輯不在同一個平面上那是沒有意義的我為什麼今天要今天先講這件事情就是因為現在一般的就是非社宅體系的包住宅數量還沒有很多"},{"start":11165.535,"end":11190.451,"text":"所以我們要先把遊戲規則講清楚今天我們修正34條、38條等等其實是讓包租貸款的業者知道未來的遊戲規則這甚至都不是說紅蘿蔔跟棒子的問題因為數量那麼少其實還沒有開始上路還沒有開始真實要使用的需求可是我擔心的是未來如果你一般的包租貸款也就是一般的房東加入包租貸款也就供一般人任何人都可以承租的這樣的數量一多的時候你的規則是絕對改變不了的"},{"start":11192.318,"end":11220.41,"text":"我們今天修法的目的就是讓包租貸款業者知道未來在推動這包租貸款的時候你就是有申報的義務你就是肩負這個臺灣租屋市場透明化的一定的責任對於業者來講對於地方政府來講對於中央政府來講這對事情變多了那是個事實可是這事情變多是有正面意義的那個正面意義在於未來加入包租貸款提早知道遊戲規則讓未來政策可以推動的時候可以順利好那我現在要講剛剛我們講現在十萬戶裡面有九萬七千戶走的是社宅邏輯為什麼"},{"start":11221.75,"end":11245.593,"text":"為什麼大部分人加入包租貸款都是用設宅的方式來提供而不是用一般的方式來提供?請政府說明一下。跟委員說明,其實我那天也有跟委員說明就是說事實上目前來講的話轉租的部分我們在去年已經開始9月1號開始已經轉租的部分也都要實價登錄了。現在委員的版本裡面有一個很大的重點就是貸款的這個部分要進來。"},{"start":11246.334,"end":11261.203,"text":"那我跟委員報告就是說設宅的代管也已經實價登錄了現在唯一的就是一般的嘛還沒嘛一般宅的這個代管這個部分是委員今天要討論的一個重點嘛是好吧那現在的問題是難道不應該做嗎"},{"start":11263.206,"end":11287.854,"text":"沒有我跟委員報告就是說這些事情我們當然會做但是在做的過程裡面其實我們還是要去理解就是說市場上面對於這些事情的反應是什麼我看到內政部的報告啦你擔心說我修正了之後市場的業者會覺得說我的門檻變高了然後我導致我的意願下降對不對你的邏輯是不是這樣說的可是我更擔心的是現在只有3000戶未來啊如果你的政府各方各面的政策更成熟之後變成有30萬戶的時候請問我們還動得了這個規則嗎"},{"start":11291.073,"end":11317.835,"text":"更難了嘛 對不對更難了嘛我們是不是要趁數量還少衝擊小的時候先把規則設定好那市長剛剛跟市長剛剛都沒有回答問題為什麼大家都加入社宅而不是一般因為政府提供了大量的補貼對不對有更好的政策誘因所以我加入包租代管的時候我都提供在社宅這個政策平台我才可以拿到比較多的政府補助這是不是代表我們政府在設計政策的時候對於我推廣一般戶啊"},{"start":11318.996,"end":11343.099,"text":"非社宅體系的政策誘因不足夠應該是吧讓他有比較心嘛所以我提供房子我都是供到社宅那邊而不是供給一般的租戶嘛是啊這也是一個原因啦但是另外一個就是說我們現在整個包租呃代管的這個行業來講的話我們也才成立了對新的嘛新的嘛對不對大家都在磨合對不對那我也是希望所以說這租戶業他能夠很努力的來"},{"start":11344.06,"end":11363.52,"text":"所以先易後難嘛,所以是不是在社宅這部分比較容易,也有比較多的誘因。可是我講嘛,政策邏輯不能只重社宅而忽略市場正常化嘛。我們一般的所謂的市場的部分,其實在我們的租金補貼的部分其實已經納入了。我們未來的政策就是會公佈區間,就是這些租金補貼的資訊我們也會納入區間的資訊裡面,然後讓大家"},{"start":11368.804,"end":11391.497,"text":"你走了租屋補貼或一般的政策誘因之後,如果它透明化,很多的房東就會加入包租貸款,因為方便嘛。可是問題是如果你加入包租貸款,你的政策沒有對齊的話就麻煩嘛。我要講的就是這個事嘛。我知道,可是我們現在已經透過租金補貼的部分,在一定程度上也掌握了相當比例的市場的租金行情。我今天花一點時間去講的邏輯就是,我希望市場正常化的政策誘因也要出來。"},{"start":11391.837,"end":11417.239,"text":"也就是說我現在包租貸款大部分都加入了社宅可是你對一般的我主動加入一般的包租貸款這個平台你政府也要提供更多的誘因跟投資我們現在的做法就是先把遊戲規則確立趁人還少的時候先課予明確的義務啊讓他知道加入這個市場之後要符合什麼樣遊戲規則同時我們今天會用負債決議等等方式要求政府針對這一般戶啊你要有效擴張啊你不能搞了幾年之後還是只有三千戶啊"},{"start":11417.839,"end":11439.654,"text":"目標要變三萬戶甚至三十萬戶嘛這才是一個成功的政策讓他有秩序的來進行包租代管的部分跟租金補貼部分跟社宅部分我們的政策方向跟對應的target本來就是有些不同我們可以再後續我們進一步跟委員做解細節的部分我們就處理好之後再來討論但是這些事情並不會不能執行但我們本席本黨也都不接受寸步不行好不好"},{"start":11439.994,"end":11451.878,"text":"我們沒有說不能執行,我們也沒有說增加行政委員業,我們是希望讓市場能夠穩定,這件事情是最重要的。好,我們待會再詳細討論,謝謝。好,非常謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢,謝謝次長,謝謝次長。繼續我們請低璇中委員。感謝主席,安安恰董次長。請董次長。"},{"start":11465.498,"end":11480.268,"text":"市長好!委員好!我們今天討論租賃住宅市場管理條例的修法的部分。租賃住宅是我們國家的重大建築。因為租賃住宅市場的額數比較大。是這個做法的人有多少?我們有否統計起來?"},{"start":11485.149,"end":11513.185,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":11514.025,"end":11523.632,"text":"說到這個弱勢租客,最多是都入社會年輕的群組,兼聘的負擔是很重要。我們回顧電子階收支國費,這是兩年前的事。我們來盡快排除我們這個租金、實價登錄,雖然你有跟電子階都一樣不一樣,甚至你有中,最重要的是公開租金的租金上漲。"},{"start":11540.785,"end":11558.398,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":11568.365,"end":11583.252,"text":"我認為租金的額外與否與市場有關,但是我們透過目前我們快速地去直接落實到租金的市長每一戶每一戶的直接公開會造成另外一個狀況就是說"},{"start":11584.452,"end":11599.038,"text":"市場的供給的量會下降,因為很多人租房,其實他不是說,我們現在對他的目標是說那種賃貨很多的,譬如說他是大包租公、包租婆,其實市民最多的是什麼,是一些,是大人,他的生活裡面,他可能多一間房子,"},{"start":11604.807,"end":11607.508,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":11635.781,"end":11637.243,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11655.482,"end":11670.793,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":11685.063,"end":11689.605,"text":"希望說全面實施租賃實價登錄發想就來接受這是一定有比較困難像剛才我們次長說的我們要如何一國一國來做到希望我們內政國要有一些具體的規約跟一些政策讓我們看得到如何讓我們租房者的權益可以再加多一個高中不然可能要再討論這個居住正義的修法我們內政國"},{"start":11714.272,"end":11733.361,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":11742.105,"end":11746.789,"text":"這是符合我們的發貨租賃的款項,但減少電費,有可能會提高租金嗎?我們對租金的部分,這當然是定型化企業的意思,我們契約裡面就比較好,租金是安全。"},{"start":11761.081,"end":11762.423,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11777.722,"end":11778.742,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條"},{"start":11800.612,"end":11802.413,"text":"臺電申請公司用電話,有一定的通過。申請完成,可能會做成分一戰鬥出乎不同,來分攤附近的一個爭議,做成我們租客房東的一個爭議。我們推動居住爭議也要靠兩世界,以及我們這個公權的合理性。"},{"start":11820.325,"end":11832.316,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":11842.165,"end":11845.888,"text":"不然真的誇獎到我們這位租客,頂多祖先到我們這個市場的金雕及灶灰就出,這樣,就在這給我們次長提醒一下,感謝次長先靠你,先靠你。感謝委員的指教,謝謝,謝謝。委員剛才提成的事情,我們未來會檢討。好,謝謝,謝謝。好,非常謝謝丁協中委員,謝謝,謝謝次長、次長,繼續我們請許新穎委員。"},{"start":11871.212,"end":11874.413,"text":"依照經濟學的供需理論,當供給大於需求的時候,價格是上漲還是下降?"},{"start":11893.543,"end":11911.029,"text":"公己大於需求當然是下降當然是下降那也很奇怪我們這個現在的自有住宅率高達78.6那我們空閒的住宅也有18.5為什麼房價和房租呢還是一路飆漲"},{"start":11913.092,"end":11940.265,"text":"這個要跟委員報告一般我們當然是市場的供需原則是就是supply demand side的互動可是住宅有一個特殊的狀況是它有所謂的獨一性也就是說這個地點蓋了房子別的地點就就是這個地點就不能蓋另外一間所以它具有一定程度的壟斷性那在經濟學上我們很清楚有壟斷性的地方它就不是一般的單純市場而是具有壟斷性的市場或寡占性市場"},{"start":11940.785,"end":11956.937,"text":"那反正現在台灣就是房價房租一路飆漲嘛那我們今天要談的當然我想您也這個接受很多委員質詢就是租屋黑市的問題嘛對那租屋黑市的問題這個我們現在空屋高達有166.4萬戶那為什麼沒有辦法破那個"},{"start":11969.987,"end":11974.75,"text":"讓民間釋出這些空屋呢?"},{"start":12000.018,"end":12017.317,"text":"對,那但是我們看到日本日本他這個取消固定資產稅的優惠額他讓持有人的成本增加3到4倍所以他的空屋開始釋出可是我們台灣蔡政府之前"},{"start":12017.978,"end":12034.866,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":12035.586,"end":12063.019,"text":"那當然我們了解就是說我們現在300億包租貸款嘛這包租貸款蔡政府花了8年那4年呢過去4年1200億的租金補貼本席想了解每年租金補貼到底你預算300億但是你真正申請然後你真正接受申請的你花掉多少平均平均我請我們國土組來做說明"},{"start":12067.657,"end":12094.335,"text":"你跟委員報告一下,就是說我們租金補貼的部分齁,我們今年度的...今年不要,去年,因為去年整年過掉了嘛,去年,去年你預算應該有300億吧?對,因為去年是第一年開辦300億,所以他的這個,是大概32萬戶左右。300億,那他到底有來申請的你,你到底300億花掉多少?"},{"start":12096.072,"end":12122.509,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":12123.79,"end":12150.343,"text":"請你回答房東會怎麼對就是房客要租屋補貼請問房東下一句話是什麼你一定很清楚嘛不要租你對不對跟委員報告我們其實不是這情況怎麼解決我要聽的是這個我們第一個就是我們透過實際的租屋的住宅調查裡面其實我們就發現因為租金租屋補貼而不去租租的房東其實並沒有很高大概一層左右"},{"start":12151.003,"end":12172.021,"text":"這個就可怕,你知道,你們,所以現在我就擔心我們的官員齁,在實際的市場,我跟你講,現在立法院,立法院,我先講齁,立法院這麼多的助理,很多絕對不一定,有的當然是,但很多不是在涉及在台北,他在台北都租房子。"},{"start":12172.501,"end":12199.744,"text":"還有我們區域立委在各地的助理全部都租房子真正去問一下我看我們就做個問卷在我們委員的助理裡面如實回答一下大部分都黑市啊全部都是黑市租屋你怎麼會說只有一層我跟委員報告就是說整個申請租金補貼本來就不需要房東同意我們目前的修法已經確定不需要房東同意而且房客可以依據消保法第12條去主張"},{"start":12201.525,"end":12221.623,"text":"房客要提出嘛提出以後那個國稅局就還是會去查他嘛我們在法令裡面也明確規定他不得作為他查稅的依據嘛好不查稅對所以基本上他們基本上他只要願意申請我們就會給予然後他如果說在這個過程裡面對我說房東"},{"start":12225.246,"end":12226.708,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12240.506,"end":12268.358,"text":"但是他揭露的情況下比如說我是房東我有20間我這棟房子我有20間小套房出租結果呢有三個要跟我申請就是他要租屋補貼那是不是我這邊的我就所以你的意思說揭露沒有關係不影響他的權益沒有揭露啊我們沒有揭露他申請租金補貼就是他拿來然後我們告訴他他就去申請了就這樣對對他去申請那房東的"},{"start":12269.979,"end":12297.361,"text":"他去申請你們不會去查說有沒有確實是這樣嗎?會吧?他會上傳他的租賃資料。所以你們只看契約就給他了?所以無關乎他的房東的房子你們不會去查?這個是一直這樣嗎?還是現在有改法令?是這一兩年去年開始有改還是?我們就是針對房客提出的資料進行審查。審查合格我們就會撥付租金補貼。"},{"start":12300.127,"end":12328.964,"text":"對,那所以房東的資訊房東的都不會被政府什麼都不會看然後也沒有人會去查房東對,我們不會去查房東因為他房租基本上房租上面就會有一些相關的資訊那甚至我們現在連房東不會有人去查說這邊有一間有租金補貼所以去查說這邊有20間這邊整個都是租出租的,不會對,我們不會主動去做這種查核"},{"start":12329.514,"end":12330.695,"text":"主席紅森漢委員質詢"},{"start":12368.752,"end":12384.542,"text":"主席好請董事長也請董事長董事長我其實在我今天的質詢開始之前我其實想給你一個建議就是因為我剛才聽到你說因為申請租屋補貼而"},{"start":12385.916,"end":12386.256,"text":"租賃住宅市場"},{"start":12401.914,"end":12426.464,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":12430.526,"end":12437.426,"text":"跟次長來表達其實今天有很多委員我們都很關注租屋族的權益其實我自己長期也是租屋族"},{"start":12438.325,"end":12463.078,"text":"那都在租房子所以部長我要先肯定其實現在內政部在6月底的時候通過行政院的小保會那會在7月15號上路的租電價的這個新制上面其實這是一個非常大的進展其實從去年的11月開始我就透過幾次的質詢包括跟經濟部跟內政部來討論怎麼樣解決房東利用這個電價來賺差價來獲利的這個漏息"},{"start":12468.121,"end":12493.867,"text":"那我自己的辦公室也我們一直在參與跟內政部的政策的討論這部分坦白說我覺得要給內政部蠻大的肯定那今年的6月28我在我自己的社群平台上面宣傳這個政策即將要公佈實施其實獲得非常非常多年輕網友的好評不過也陸續收到了很多網友跟相關租屋族他們也很多疑問或者是他們有很多的提問"},{"start":12495.168,"end":12522.42,"text":"那我現在看到在內政部的租賃條例的專區裡面有公布一份QA這份QA在租賃專區的QA裡面我有看到那看起來有想要回答一些問題可是說實話我看到這份QA我認為有很大改善的空間舉例來說這個我們現在在社群的平台上面收到最多的問題現在我以上列的這些我們目前看到內政部都還沒有很清楚的解釋比方說舉例"},{"start":12523.661,"end":12538.589,"text":"租賃家的心智是否適用於營業場所﹐比方說百貨公司﹐百貨商場﹐包括夜市﹐小攤商也告訴我說﹐他們往往多架一顆燈﹐就要被夜市的管委會多收費30塊﹐像這算不算﹐電價被超收﹐像這種問題﹐"},{"start":12539.71,"end":12553.99,"text":"二、租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":12555.993,"end":12572.507,"text":"在比方說更多人會問那租客要如何知道有沒有被房東超收電費那這部分其實我們已經跟台電商量好規劃好的一個好的大家去查詢平均電價的機制可是大家也是不知道所以我們需要給大家一些操作型的指引讓大家去做"},{"start":12573.007,"end":12599.89,"text":"再來,房東不能透過電費來賺差價,那是不是會來趁機漲房租?那該怎麼辦?這剛剛前面有一個委員,我記得張志文委員有問到,那執行面上面到底房東要怎麼配合台電才能夠減少麻煩?這些問題我覺得都是重要的問題,但是現在在QA上面我們都沒有看到這些問題。所以部長、次長我要說,其實我們在看到現在的這個租市場上面有很多不同型態的房東跟租客,包括"},{"start":12600.811,"end":12617.174,"text":"大家現在說的包租代管或者是獨立的整層的住家或者是分租套房、分租雅房甚至是頂樓加蓋的這些型態其實有很多不同的型態它的公共用電的方式也不太一樣所以到底這個電費收取要怎麼樣合法才能夠做出一個"},{"start":12618.054,"end":12644.788,"text":"在合法合規上面其實現在是需要內政部更大力的去做宣傳的要給完整的建議所以我要要求這個包括市長跟司長我覺得我們要定期來檢討這份QA那把大家遇到直接常見的問題都應該列上去其實有一個明確的答案第二個我覺得不能夠只有放在你們的網站上啊年輕人看不到啊你們要不要去利用更多的社群平台去甚至我要說"},{"start":12646.004,"end":12664.312,"text":"你們應該我自己都覺得我們有很多的租屋網站這些租屋網站是不是直接在租屋網站上面就要標明把這訊息不得超收電費那電費該怎麼收清清楚楚的列在上面讓房東跟房客直接就可以知道不一定一定非得透過房客的檢舉才能夠去修改過去錯誤的行為"},{"start":12665.532,"end":12665.652,"text":"市長,有沒有問題?"},{"start":12681.593,"end":12707.101,"text":"沒問題,我們會照委員的建議,那做定期的對QA的修正。那也感謝委員提供一些相關的QA給我們。但我覺得重點是要花力氣、花資源主動宣傳。這是一個好的政策讓大家更多人知道,它可以廣受好評,可是只怕我們的配套不足、宣傳不足。第二個事情,主席再給我一分鐘。我要說在這新的學期裡面,現在新學期快到了。"},{"start":12707.501,"end":12711.823,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12726.4,"end":12738.765,"text":"其實現在很多房東來跟我們反映他們過去確實可能因為過去的習慣或者是過去前人跟他們講的做法不是合法的做法可是他們現在可能也想要改用合法的做法但是他們"},{"start":12739.81,"end":12766.713,"text":"有些來反映他想更知道怎麼這些操作上面的細節。第二個事情是其實確實坦白說很多委員講到租屋黑市的存在是現在很多租客跟房東之間權力不平等的問題這事情當然需要面對可是我覺得在面對的同時幾件事情的做法我覺得至少可以優先先做我們政府不是不了解這個問題但是其實已經推出很多棍子跟胡蘿蔔但是包括房東或者是公益出租人"},{"start":12767.213,"end":12787.099,"text":"其實我覺得我們現在也開始有所謂專案的查核在這個學校周邊想要查八千我們這都有我覺得我們要讓房東很清楚知道第一個如果你要做一個合法的房東其實你可以享有政府多少的優惠如果你要做一個非法的房東或不合規的房東你可能要付出什麼樣的代價其實我覺得這部分"},{"start":12788.12,"end":12809.5,"text":"要擴大的宣傳讓大家知道我們把這個你可以拿到的優惠跟你會受到的懲罰之間這個要讓大家清清楚楚我覺得在大家會慢慢的做行為上面的校正因為有很多的房東他也跟我們說我們並沒有就想要當一個非法的房東可是過去長年以來的習慣是這樣我現在也想改可是我要怎麼改我需要一些政府的幫忙"},{"start":12810.12,"end":12831.534,"text":"這部分我還是要跟內政部說我們還是現在開始說我覺得我們其實陸陸續續推出了蠻多的政策但真的有很多房東跟房客還是不了解這部分宣傳是一件事情但我們現在接下來可能想討論更多規範性的做法我也贊成要有規範性的做法但至少宣傳能夠是起的應該是第一步而且這要花資源宣傳不要把頭埋在沙裡面我覺得這是一個部分市長應該沒問題吧"},{"start":12832.375,"end":12839.7,"text":"沒有問題,我們會照委員的建議,我們加長來處理。好,謝謝。好,非常謝謝洪森漢委員的建議,非常謝謝。謝謝次長,謝謝次長。繼續我們請鄭天才委員質詢。"},{"start":12865.16,"end":12867.405,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請次長。委員好。"},{"start":12875.819,"end":12894.687,"text":"我們看這個是110年的統計數字這個原住民住宅自有率還有租賃的複數我們就以計較在這個都會期都會期就是非原住民族鄉鎮市區住宅自有率65.87%跟這個全國的76.66%這個差距將近10%"},{"start":12903.524,"end":12903.724,"text":"新北市60.85%台北市60.85%"},{"start":12923.431,"end":12949.89,"text":"臺北市只有55.28%臺中市只有55.81%所以這個差距都相當大所以在過去內政部在提出行政院提出住宅法的時候當時我在內政委員會也提出這個住宅法的一個條文所以在住宅法第四條特別明定這個有關"},{"start":12951.242,"end":12966.214,"text":"社會住宅相關需要列入的部分,所以在第九款,原住民也把它列入,列入在優先進駐社會住宅。社會住宅法第五條,也特別規定"},{"start":12971.264,"end":12993.779,"text":"為此,前提國民居住以適宜之住宅,且享有尊嚴之居住環境需要,中央主管機關應橫走未來環境發展住宅市場供需狀況、住宅負擔能力、住宅發展課題及援助民族文化需求等嚴尼住宅政策,報行政案核定。"},{"start":12994.554,"end":13010.166,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之三條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之三條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之三條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等"},{"start":13021.468,"end":13035.628,"text":"所以這個部分就是解決尤其是都會期原住民的住宅自由利非常非常的差百分之十以上所以這樣的一個情形當然"},{"start":13036.604,"end":13052.578,"text":"租宅法第二條,因為它是目的事業主管機關。那我曾經,等一下我也會講,我曾經也質詢過前任的行政院院長,當初還是林佑昌部長。"},{"start":13053.68,"end":13073.219,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":13074.452,"end":13100.215,"text":"這個社會住宅因為內政部有這個新辦社會住宅出租辦法這裡面就是根據當初我們原住民立委在住宅法的時候所提的附帶結議做了一個針對原住民要保障原住民入住社會住宅不得低於原住民族人口數佔全國人口數的比例所以這個部分內政部有把它列進去"},{"start":13101.022,"end":13121.701,"text":"現在就是也要請內政部去督促還有哪些縣市政府他們的社會住宅是不是沒有把這樣的比例列進去這個調查結果再回覆給我好不好好我們看這個在今年3月5號院會總質詢質詢當時的陳建仁院長當時的內政部林右昌部長"},{"start":13126.431,"end":13126.891,"text":"租賃住宅基金"},{"start":13154.794,"end":13176.312,"text":"社會住宅就是根據住宅法﹖所以應該從住宅基金﹖而且曾經內政部也同意用住宅基金﹖這個下次資料給次長﹖所以不能說沒有經費﹖這個是有問題的﹖另外就是說新北市樹林原住民族社會住宅"},{"start":13177.553,"end":13182.617,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":13195.319,"end":13219.936,"text":"好,跟委員報告,您所列的這三個裡面,它基本上臺中跟桃園是因為那個,桃園當然是發飆的問題,然後臺中是因為他們自己不願意辦,那我們會積極跟地方政府協商,請他們跟我們合作,然後趕快來完成。所以這個沒有經費是,這個是錯誤的,好不好?我們有經費,那我們也會盡力完成。好,謝謝鄭天才委員的質詢,謝謝次長、司長,謝謝。繼續我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。"},{"start":13231.926,"end":13259.955,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及"},{"start":13260.775,"end":13283.922,"text":"只有證明一件事,就是我們的黑道、黑牆倉爵沒有把內政部、警政署放在眼裡。所以請次長今天回去跟部長說我們的立場。希望內政部要把這件事情當成最重要的事情。是,沒有問題。也跟委員報告,本部一向打擊犯罪不遺餘力。我們也把所有的這些事情當成是本部最重要的業務。他是向政府宣戰。我們一定,我們一定會強力執行。"},{"start":13285.503,"end":13285.663,"text":"我們絕對不手軟,我們會嚴厲執行。"},{"start":13310.176,"end":13335.657,"text":"對這兩天司法新聞因為都被鄭文燦搶走了所以這件事情可能大家沒有那麼關注我希望內政部不能掉以輕心請委員放心我們一定會嚴厲執行第二個部分就是有關租屋市場黑市我其實跟部長跟總執行的時候都提過租屋市場黑市的問題是政府長期的漠視長期以來我們對租屋市場幾乎叫做不管不問好不容易定了住宅法然後定了辦法"},{"start":13336.597,"end":13336.637,"text":"租賃租賃"},{"start":13353.831,"end":13374.676,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":13376.133,"end":13400.888,"text":"這才是今天人民碰到的痛苦所以不要再告訴我說你們做不到這是有法律要執行有稅要查稅現在的問題就是我們很怕房東反彈因為房東的選票也很重要所以大家就是假裝沒看見兩個具體要求第一個租金補貼要實價登錄目前沒有做要不要做"},{"start":13402.23,"end":13429.015,"text":"租賃補貼我們會逐步完成...不要逐步了五十幾萬戶在你手上你可以去識別化、杜斷化把它講清楚這個地方租金多少錢我補貼了它這有什麼難的我們在那個相關的策略上我們會去處理這是第一個這是政府手上有資料都不敢公佈這才是我們的問題我們怕什麼我們會逐步去完成怕房東嗎怕拿到租賃補貼的房東嗎不是吧我們會逐步去完成這件事情第二個"},{"start":13430.334,"end":13454.607,"text":"貸管業者要不要管?要不要讓他公告?貸管業者納進來有沒有問題?不是問題嗎?那天部長有答應我啊。好不好?貸管業者。社宅的貸管業者的部分都已經有實價登錄了。是。仲介業、貸管、包括租業有了。現在租金補貼在你內政部的手上,你就是相關公佈的資料。第三個就是最後貸管業者。"},{"start":13455.467,"end":13455.667,"text":"租賃住宅市場"},{"start":13472.833,"end":13473.833,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":13489.76,"end":13516.435,"text":"其實將來我們可能在我們所因為現在的稅都差不多收不到嘛將來在我們所謂的租賃所得收入的時候在財政部提撥一筆錢來鼓勵大家做實價登錄之後能夠得到一些優惠比如說公正費用能夠補助讓房東能夠站出來讓租屋會是能夠曬到陽光我想這個是內政部長期要做弄十年來做看能不能把租屋市場徹底的陽光化"},{"start":13516.755,"end":13546.111,"text":"跟委員報告您的主張跟我們其實是一致的我希望你提出一個時程表漸進式的方式我們來達到這個事情這四年賴政府這四年要做到哪裡未來的八年要做到哪裡我覺得你必須要有一個方向尤其內政部的事務官我相信大家都有這個理想可是不能夠一直假裝沒看見另一個法還告訴人家說我不會查稅這個國家是什麼回事我們正視這個問題也感謝委員的提醒我們正在逐步要推動這件事情"},{"start":13546.331,"end":13550.922,"text":"查稅好像變成政府很羞愧承認的事情,我覺得這件事情很要不得。"},{"start":13553.476,"end":13579.811,"text":"好,非常謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢跟提醒。市長,你一直在講逐步完成,身為一個召委,我覺得你的逐步完成的確是好在虛擬事實。租金補貼已經拿了,剛剛黃珊珊委員所講的非常的正確。所以我認為身為一個負責任的政府,你們不應該用逐步,因為甚至於你告訴我們你們什麼時候可以完成。"},{"start":13580.311,"end":13581.132,"text":"主席董事長"},{"start":13607.512,"end":13627.771,"text":"市長,大家都聽了一個上午,就是剛剛召委所說的逐步逐步,問題是什麼?應該是整個資訊要均衡的一個透明、平等,這個天平才會公平。那你們之所以不願意公開透明,原因是什麼?"},{"start":13628.474,"end":13650.248,"text":"沒有不願意公開透明,我們剛才那個我們市長已經報告了,我們會在6個月內,我們將所有相關內政部所掌握到的資訊,我們用區段透過統計的方式去識別化的方式,那逐步把它完成區段的公布。6個月內,什麼時候起算?因為這個議題大家關心很久了,你的6個月是當時?"},{"start":13653.012,"end":13653.112,"text":"主席"},{"start":13682.796,"end":13684.177,"text":"明年1月以前"},{"start":13707.791,"end":13724.646,"text":"會正式公布?是嗎?來你講清楚好嗎?我們盡量在六個月內來把這些統計的資料分別類的來做公布那所以最慢的時間點就是在明年的一月會正式公布我可以這樣解讀對不對?是"},{"start":13728.669,"end":13749.315,"text":"這個時間點我希望能夠加油因為這個是社會面向大家需要的所以今天在修法的租賃住宅市場發展條例管理條例裡頭第三十四條、三十八條以及三十八條之二特別在三十四條裡頭因為是牛委員以及大家連署的這個"},{"start":13750.495,"end":13766.53,"text":"你們針對於三十四條裡頭所說明的那機關應將前項資訊進行登錄進行登錄跟原先你們的是三十天之內的那你同意嗎?修正條文跟委員報告那個牛委員提案的部分的話就是說"},{"start":13776.014,"end":13778.596,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13798.767,"end":13811.173,"text":"確認我們再來討論細節我也謝謝就支持我們所提案的這個第三十四條、三十八條跟三十八條之二就這個方向怎麼樣去簡化怎麼樣去簡化好終於有一點達成共識那接下來我們討論細節的部分7月15號那電費新資要上任是不是要上路對7月15號"},{"start":13822.498,"end":13822.958,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":13837.947,"end":13862.755,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":13863.915,"end":13865.477,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":13880.794,"end":13881.254,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":13904.326,"end":13905.026,"text":"最後一個議題我給你,也就是自然人憑證"},{"start":13922.256,"end":13935.461,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":13937.814,"end":13958.731,"text":"這個我們會在演繹當中,我們儘量簡化程序。儘量簡化程序,因為到目前為止,你們兩年內是超過45萬人的註冊,但是你累進的有用的是330萬人,可是我們總的這個比例是只有普及率,只有兩成。"},{"start":13960.012,"end":13970.261,"text":"所以你的方式是務必要調整嘛因為你要你一個政策下去要看結果論自然人憑證如果這麼方便還要只有兩層執行到現在兩層就理當去討論我們的政策我們的方式要怎麼樣檢討嘛對不對你們兩個都一直點頭你什麼時候檢討出來"},{"start":13982.56,"end":13985.822,"text":"我們會把相關資料再跟委員報告,我們就順便報告給委員。"},{"start":14015.971,"end":14018.472,"text":"有請董事長有請董事長市長這個住宅產品因為這個供給者跟需求者會因為這個一些住宅政策會有一些調整"},{"start":14033.315,"end":14060.411,"text":"我想說的就是小宅化小宅化就是說這個每一戶成屋的這個坪數啊都大概是20坪到25坪甚至有20坪以下為什麼會造成這種現象為什麼供給者建築投資業者不敢或者不想去興建大坪數因為他有豪宅這個豪宅門檻還有所得的這個限制然後因為房價又那麼高啊"},{"start":14061.288,"end":14084.365,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":14085.146,"end":14110.138,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":14111.51,"end":14128.846,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":14137.042,"end":14158.94,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":14160.9,"end":14179.366,"text":"目前相關的政策我們還是先以設宅的部分為主啦我們希望能夠推動合理的設宅的興建在直接興建的部分透過這樣的方式來平易市場的價格因為事實上小宅的出現也如同委員剛才所指教的他的因為"},{"start":14180.851,"end":14185.714,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14197.608,"end":14222.583,"text":"那這個你這個社會住宅當然是這個坪數空間會大一點但是他有租賃期間的限制嘛所以最多6年嘛如果相關的這個弱勢啊經濟或社會弱勢可以再延長到12年嘛對不對好如果一個年輕夫婦居住他只有6年對不對6年他是不是還要再去找新的家那時候還是一樣買到小坪數的"},{"start":14223.598,"end":14249.686,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":14252.386,"end":14258.359,"text":"那你針對這些這個年輕族群只能讓他6年的期間這個有必要做檢討"},{"start":14260.776,"end":14262.677,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案"},{"start":14288.282,"end":14298.364,"text":"對報委員就是說因為我們現在社會住宅的量還不夠多就將來我們社會住宅累積的量比較多的時候就是說就可以來檢討這個放寬這個12年的讓它變得更長會來研議檢討謝謝那量到什麼時候你才會放寬"},{"start":14304.673,"end":14308.535,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14320.168,"end":14323.392,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14337.929,"end":14358.238,"text":"言的委員除了不在場者之外,其餘的都已經發言完畢,尋答結束。委員高金素美所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報。書面質詢還有未及答覆的部分,我們請相關單位在一周之內以書面來答覆,並且複製本會。我們現在先休息五分鐘,繼續處理法案。謝謝。"},{"start":14717.986,"end":14726.794,"text":"好來報告委員會我們現在進行法案的審查請宣讀討論事項所有版本還有條文附帶決議呢我們也請一併宣讀宣讀完畢以後我們進行協商謝謝"},{"start":14729.778,"end":14752.772,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條國民黨黨團提案第二項修正為出租人應於簽訂租賃契約之日起三十日內向池霞市縣市主管機關申報登錄成交案件實際資訊以下簡稱申報登錄資訊但包租業之租賃住宅轉租案件及不動產經紀業居間或代理成交之租賃案件應由該業者申報登錄資訊"},{"start":14754.013,"end":14767.559,"text":"第五項將包租業或賜成租人的文字修正為租賃契約當事人其餘同線型條文。委員牛煦庭等18人提案。第二項修正為直轄市縣市主管機關應將前項資訊進行登錄成交案件實際資訊以下簡稱登錄資訊。"},{"start":14771.781,"end":14793.228,"text":"第五項前段修正為指下市縣市主管機關會查核第一項資訊得向租賃住宅服務業或租賃住宅服務當事人要求查詢取閱有關文件或提出說明其餘同現行條文。第三十八條委員牛煦庭等18人提案刪除第五款後段或提供不實資訊等文字其餘同現行條文。"},{"start":14794.088,"end":14818.445,"text":"第三十八條之二國民黨黨團提案第一項第二項前段修正為出租人包租業及不動產經濟業第三項前段之包租業或賜承租人修正為租賃契約當事人其餘同現行條文委員牛煦庭等18人提案第一項第二項前段修正為租賃住宅服務業依第三十四條第一項規定提供之"},{"start":14819.326,"end":14834.63,"text":"第三項前段之包租業或賜承租人修正為租賃住宅服務業或租賃住宅服務當事人,其餘同現行條文。國民黨黨團提案增訂第38條之三,民眾對租賃申報登錄資訊之有違反法規定情勢者,得續明事實並檢據證據資料向直轄市縣市主管機關檢舉。直轄市縣市主管機關對於前項檢舉,"},{"start":14844.153,"end":14861.881,"text":"警察正屬實並處以罰還者,得以實收罰還總金額收入一定比率,提供檢舉獎金於檢舉人,前向主管機關受理檢舉案件之管轄處理其間保密檢舉人獎金及其他應遵行事項之辦法,由中央主管機關定之。附帶決議111年審計部"},{"start":14870.997,"end":14892.656,"text":"111年審計部決算報告略以由於國內租賃住宅市場以個人出租形態為主,都說房東不願多繳稅,或以自用住宅稅率申報,逃避租屋收入課稅,造成政府對於租賃住宅市場掌握資訊非常有限,而產生租屋黑市或地下化問題,以致中央及地方機關所以積極推動租金補貼等居住協助措施,卻無法確實發揮政策效益。"},{"start":14894.818,"end":14916.582,"text":"就民眾角度而言租屋黑市也嚴重影響其申請租補、攝護及抵稅等合法權益並衍生諸如租住品值安全與糾紛保障等課題。為引導租屋市場透明第一步應先從政府做起。近年來政府已投入數以百億計補貼經費用於租屋市場包括包租代管租金補貼理應掌握"},{"start":14917.402,"end":14941.81,"text":"這些受補住屋標的資訊可透過大數據分析轉化為租屋供給、租屋價格等資訊供民眾參考,並作為政策規劃依據。為促進租屋市場透明,建起內政部於114年1月開始,針對租金補貼資料進行分析,針對不同地區不同屋型租金行情區間分析匯整,並定期公布於內政部網站。提案人委員麥玉珍等四人。"},{"start":14945.913,"end":14961.954,"text":"好,為了使討論聚焦,我們這次的會議就按照委員會編制的條文對照表順序進行逐條討論。然後每條條文如果有委員提案或是修正動議的,我們先分別請委員表示意見後,再由行政單位一併回覆說明。"},{"start":14962.515,"end":14985.69,"text":"目前我們這個委會會議裏面的部分有國民黨團的提案還有牛煦庭委員的提案那麼這個剛剛我們有討論到國民黨的提案就是他們不堅持所以待會討論的時候我們就針對牛煦庭委員的提案來說明來我們來宣告一下第34條大家看一下提案第34條"},{"start":14990.663,"end":14990.783,"text":"行政委員"},{"start":15009.974,"end":15038.156,"text":"好各位委員那針對於牛煦庭委員所提的這個整個修正這裡面的第三十四條這個部分因為整個配套三十四然後還有後面還有三十八之二跟三十八之三我們目前的內政部的立場是是不是這個部分先保留因為這個裡面整個來講的話我們在報告裡面有提到就是說代管企業現在目前的社宅的"},{"start":15039.025,"end":15062.849,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":15068.99,"end":15069.691,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":15082.142,"end":15083.882,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":15104.848,"end":15123.183,"text":"所以這個部分我們的立場是這樣那另外一個就是說剛剛那個資訊來講剛剛也跟牛委員溝通過那個這一部分的資訊事實上資料事實上並不是那麼的多我們也預估一年大概4000多件有這樣一個一般仔的代管企業"},{"start":15124.483,"end":15148.869,"text":"所以是不是這個時候我們一定要去做這樣一個衝擊那我們也建議的就是說那我們剛剛也答應了我們針對於租金補貼的這個資訊我們來分析來做統計分析來做一些去識別化的這些分析然後呢我們也答應在六個月內我們來公佈不同區域的不同"},{"start":15149.389,"end":15149.629,"text":"租賃住宅"},{"start":15164.531,"end":15185.388,"text":"這我們剛剛在答詢的時候其實講得非常清楚居住正義的推動兩個管道第一個是透過社會住宅供給量的增加是社會服務力跟協助弱勢的邏輯第二個是透過其他政策的調整讓市場更加的有秩序這是市場正常化的邏輯我們今天修正的用意跟目標本來就是在推進市場正常化的一個過程"},{"start":15186.128,"end":15203.894,"text":"剛剛在答詢的過程中或者是在內政部說明的過程之中你講非常清楚現有的資訊大部分都是社宅體系的而一般戶的數量大概只有3000戶好那現在我們要更動遊戲規則如果包租貸款業者因為3000戶你就感到很困難你就很崩潰那未來請問變2萬戶3萬戶我們要怎麼修這是個問題吧"},{"start":15208.294,"end":15236.537,"text":"所以本來就是要趁衝擊小的時候現在今天就是衝擊最小的時候因為每一天的數量都會增加對不對這是政策上的一個方向的確定那難道你政府今天要反對唯一的理由就是你根本不想做嗎難道不是這樣嗎你怎麼樣兼顧在衝擊不變的情況之下你能夠推進這樣政策的措施就變成打死結了嘛你一定是趁衝擊相對小的時候先把規則搞清楚這是我要講第一個這是大的方向第二個我要講細節"},{"start":15237.981,"end":15263.844,"text":"你知道我們的租賃市場發展及管理條例應該不是一部法走全部吧應該有授權條款對不對裡面的這個第七項就有寫第一項的資訊類別內容提供方式經因遵行事項由中央主管定制嘛對不對所以其實你是有執法的嘛而且不只是規定嘛你還有執法租賃住宅服務業資訊提供辦法就有一套做法嘛那你們有沒有看過裡面的內容"},{"start":15264.778,"end":15267.594,"text":"有啊當然那個是我們定的這個執法啦"},{"start":15268.342,"end":15294.152,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":15298.376,"end":15323.663,"text":"對不對所以說不管從方向上或是從細節上來講我們修法有絕對的正當性嘛你本來就該做的事情我們只是法文明文那法文明文也是在一個衝擊相對小的這樣一個時機來做所以我們就講嘛今天如果有辦法用比較溫和的方式也就是說包租貸款這部分先達成共識今天就來處理政府也得分我們執政黨委員也得分我們在黨委員也得分大家一起共同推動民生法案我想這是大家都可以接受的結果"},{"start":15324.431,"end":15346.151,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":15347.623,"end":15361.795,"text":"那我們如何對支持這件事情的選民交代對不對所以我今天不修法我之後再來你剛剛講之後再來我會把話一路潑到底了來112年你們的新聞稿自己唸一下啦我唸給你們聽啦免得叫你們找很麻煩"},{"start":15363.613,"end":15387.515,"text":"內政部112年8月5號新聞稿有效率推動租屋市場透明化。內政部強調為加強透明化、修正租賃條例,後續亦將強化租賃資訊整合分析,進一步提升租賃市場透明度。快一年了,有進度嗎?沒有嘛。你看我們今天不要求修法,不做這些事情,你會主動做嗎?大概不會嘛。"},{"start":15388.41,"end":15417.182,"text":"對不對所以我覺得有些時候就是該走該往前走就要走步子可以不用走那麼大步但你總要前進現在社會大眾特別是年輕年輕世代的族群不是弱勢戶而已一般租不起房子的人或者是租房遇到很多障礙困難的人都需要這個市場這個包租貸款業界遊戲規則趕快確認然後趕快對一般大眾有利這個是對大家有利的事情希望內政部可以秉於這樣子的推動居住正義的精神今天我們就達成共識以上"},{"start":15418.496,"end":15434.455,"text":"非常謝謝牛煦庭委員非常清楚明白的也甚至於拿出這個條文還有你們自己內政部裡面的新聞稿說了剛剛我記得在不管是黃珊珊委員的質詢或者是楊瓊瑩委員的質詢針對這個部分內政部也都說"},{"start":15437.899,"end":15439.52,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15459.197,"end":15477.271,"text":"我來簡單說明一下剛牛委員提到說我們有一個租賃住宅一個資訊的一個提供辦法裡面那我們那個提供辦法裡面事實上是有要業者來提供這些資訊但是我跟委員報告這個是業者提供給直轄市縣市政府"},{"start":15477.751,"end":15477.931,"text":"租賃住宅"},{"start":15493.662,"end":15497.483,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":15519.83,"end":15521.051,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":15540.62,"end":15556.974,"text":"包租貸款,還有中階的實價登錄租金資料,以及租金補貼,事實上它裡面的內容格式並不一致。我們要做這個,我們也在做了,不是之前沒有做。我們現在請博弈委員來說明。"},{"start":15563.289,"end":15590.071,"text":"謝謝齁,那個,呃,謝謝召委,那,呃,牛委員提這個案齁,其實我也覺得利益良善,剛剛我在那個質詢的時候就有講了,但是我們要達到整個租賃市場透明的這個過程裡面,我現在看到內政部拿出來的都是蘿蔔啦,都在想,都在,呃,都在增加誘因,讓這一些可能是空屋的房東們,"},{"start":15592.072,"end":15617.059,"text":"願意自己拿出來做公益出租人或者是願意把房子委託給包租代管的業者。那中間現在我們現在重點在這這個三十四條可能這就是在討論房東拿出來給包租代管業者的意願還有包租代管業者未來可以為台灣社會做到多少這一方面的業務的這個過程嗎?"},{"start":15619.38,"end":15631.297,"text":"那如果說內政部認為我們在這6個月我們即將要用比如說區域性那去來做這個公告這個過程會比現在馬上來做這個修法"},{"start":15634.83,"end":15654.831,"text":"還要讓房東更願意把這些房屋拿出來給包租代管業者我希望內政部再說更明確一點的說明跟例子比如說啦目前包租代管的業者他們遇到什麼樣的困難就你剛講的嘛我一開始也還聽不太懂那後來我聽懂了就是"},{"start":15655.765,"end":15674.677,"text":"他只負責管理這個管理這個他的房子但是租金的這個租金的部分是房東跟這個租客他們他們直接的業務那如果讓包租代管業者也來公佈這個實價登錄也來公佈這些資訊的話會造成"},{"start":15679.68,"end":15700.015,"text":"其他房東的意願等等的我覺得這個部分你要講清楚那才可以說服在場所有的委員們大家都希望朝向讓來租屋的人他有更多的資訊或者是有更平易的房子來可以來承租請次長跟次長來做這一方面的說明謝謝"},{"start":15700.835,"end":15726.187,"text":"我想次長跟司長剛剛不管在答詢的部分或者是給你時間回答都已經回答清楚了我希望博弈委員清楚知道剛剛牛煦庭委員堅持的部分他說其實現在這個部分正義點大概只有3千戶我們知道的資料那萬一以後這些部分沒有他會更大他的數據會更大所以你現在不處理的話不是處理我希望講清楚"},{"start":15727.008,"end":15734.007,"text":"他剛剛已經講了其實呢代管啊不出資料其實或者是房東不願意這個其實他其實就有三千戶而已是增加什麼問題"},{"start":15736.944,"end":15761.744,"text":"應該說市場上有三千戶是一般戶來做貸款。對,一般戶的嘛。對不對?所以按照總體報酬代表是十萬戶。大部分都還是走社會住宅這個邏輯嘛。對。對不對?但表示一般戶的數量不夠。那政策問題就是一般戶的政策又應該要不要提升嘛。阿第二個是趁衝擊還小的時候先建立好的完整的遊戲規則。免得你到最後從三千戶變成五千戶變八千戶。你三千戶都說很難了。那五千戶八千戶會不會更難?一萬戶兩萬戶會不會更難?"},{"start":15764.977,"end":15788.534,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":15794.679,"end":15804.316,"text":"審報登錄資訊其實反而很多業者會覺得這次多一道手續很麻煩我已經面對房東房客我要協助包租也好或協助代管也已經很麻煩了對不對 然後我還要"},{"start":15805.307,"end":15824.444,"text":"我還要自己想辦法去跟政府去做申報其實多行政程序那我們就修正你只要提供資訊就好而不用親自走那個申報流程你提供相關資訊讓政府平台來做申報這樣子政府機關也可以快速掌握所有的數字未來你才有辦法有效推動居住正義的政策所以這其實也是降低業者的工作難度跟負擔"},{"start":15825.684,"end":15849.558,"text":"所以這修法的時候並不是沒有幫業者考慮啦。好,非常謝謝牛秦庭委員補充說明。剛剛其實博弈委員也請內政部,你們不要一直停留在你們的說明都是一個說法。剛剛博弈委員也說,麻煩你們也把你們的蘿蔔拿出來,你現在是不是可以把蘿蔔拿出來再講清楚你們未來要怎麼做?是的,謝謝。剛剛講的部分就不要再持續講,不要像鸚鵡一樣好嗎?謝謝。"},{"start":15850.834,"end":15879.645,"text":"所以說一般宅的這個政策誘因我們事實上在訂租賃條例的時候那時候就有訂了我們也不分什麼一般宅社宅的這個包租貸款它事實上都有誘因包括所得稅包括房屋稅以及地價稅這個事實上也有提供誘因但因為社宅的誘因當然是比較多因為它是幫助經濟弱勢所以目前的整個那個社宅的量在包租貸款裡面的時候是大多數"},{"start":15880.445,"end":15880.865,"text":"租賃住宅市場"},{"start":15897.574,"end":15916.044,"text":"你如果現在都提不出來的話,你如何說服我們,然後這個這個不支持牛煦庭委員的這個提案呢?沒有,我說不支持,多想想,多想想,會不會造成什麼樣的困難呢?對,現在你就講清楚,困難就是我剛剛提到的,會多支出預算是嗎?這個就是變成"},{"start":15922.074,"end":15943.118,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":15951.139,"end":15973.998,"text":"有什麼意見嗎?如果沒有意見的話,我們在文字上做修訂,現在停止討論,我們來討論一下,因為它是連帶的,第三十四條、第三十八條及三十八條之二,三十四條如果沒有訂的話,下面很難。好,謝謝。對,接著下來,第五款那個都下不去。對,了解了。來,討論一下。"},{"start":15982.416,"end":15985.516,"text":"你總共幾家業者?"},{"start":16007.443,"end":16017.11,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16031.901,"end":16034.822,"text":"財管界的做不到的決定"},{"start":16061.254,"end":16061.534,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":16102.643,"end":16105.385,"text":"最主要是你有寫到發的那個啊,人家如果真的"},{"start":16107.859,"end":16131.905,"text":"問題是在這裏,就是說,如果你現在這樣就可以開始發的時候,未來的包圖災難更不會變少。你都沒出嘛!你都沒出嘛!如果是這樣子的邏輯,應該是現在很多改革還沒有發生。現在還很少。現在還很少。現在不用公開啊,不用公開。"},{"start":16137.067,"end":16137.548,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":16153.187,"end":16173.941,"text":"委員不是這樣我們的立場應該是這樣但是我要跟委員報告就是說當我們強制立法之後我們馬上會面臨的現況就是說第一個業者本身因為要罰要他可能退出這個市場這是最大的壓力第二個是房東就會消失了"},{"start":16174.934,"end":16175.134,"text":"租賃租賃"},{"start":16200.263,"end":16201.563,"text":"施行的日期可以"},{"start":16228.848,"end":16256.954,"text":"討論。"},{"start":16260.772,"end":16270.335,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案。"},{"start":16287.84,"end":16314.866,"text":"你所授權的執行執行都不用舉法,你怎麼會需要在民法裡面講呢?對不對?民法定律是標誌的。但你在執行,你在查核。剛剛包含大家關係,總會馬上裁罰你。對不對?你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際"},{"start":16315.509,"end":16317.21,"text":"都不好啊啦,都不好。"},{"start":16338.53,"end":16357.419,"text":"他們同意我們沒有意見,他們可以做就好。現在大家的爭議,本來他們就要做,只是說大家的想法都可以給年輕人,"},{"start":16363.737,"end":16390.569,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":16392.329,"end":16417.297,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":16419.778,"end":16432.083,"text":"一般戶的數量,一般戶的數量已經是五萬八萬,然後你擔心他會從下回升。那我早一點把規則明確化比較好。你如果沒有增加政策,政策的優惠增加嗎?"},{"start":16439.989,"end":16441.37,"text":"可是你又因剛開始"},{"start":16459.38,"end":16487.891,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":16488.911,"end":16496.834,"text":"房東也都已經拿到了房東也都已經拿到了房東也都已經拿到了房東也都已經拿到了房東也都已經拿到了房東也都已經拿到了"},{"start":16516.102,"end":16516.683,"text":"租賃租賃租賃"},{"start":16535.867,"end":16550.283,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":16550.964,"end":16579.032,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":16579.712,"end":16585.898,"text":"市場會否不成熟?市場會否不成熟?市場會否不成熟?市場會否不成熟?"},{"start":16605.514,"end":16630.171,"text":"我們現在的狀況我們現在的狀況就是大家不是不是不是這個就跟我們在買東西是一樣的是一步一步的往前走你一下子要全部都要怎麼樣的時候那個還沒有進入市場的人他就會恐懼所以我們才會說讓我們把市場做大大家熟悉了"},{"start":16630.911,"end":16634.634,"text":"好,那我們就可以往下走,這樣子。需要,拜託你溝通。要保留。希望保留。"},{"start":16657.598,"end":16662.363,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16673.913,"end":16674.654,"text":"租賃住宅市場"},{"start":16703.773,"end":16707.978,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":16725.812,"end":16754.641,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":16754.901,"end":16755.301,"text":"負債決議第二課"},{"start":16779.889,"end":16807.488,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及"},{"start":16811.305,"end":16833.597,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":16834.678,"end":16861.3,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":16862.823,"end":16863.584,"text":"租賃租賃租賃"},{"start":16879.575,"end":16883.697,"text":"加入那個文字那個文字那個文字那個文字那個文字那個文字那個文字"},{"start":16907.85,"end":16927.243,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":16927.843,"end":16954.614,"text":"一、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":16955.274,"end":16955.394,"text":"主席"},{"start":16963.988,"end":16991.551,"text":"好,我們現在還有另外一個附帶決議,然後我們現在請議事人員來宣讀。附帶決議二,請內政部於六個月內研議相關政策優惠及便民措施,建議增加房屋所有權人加入非屬社會住宅形式之一般包租代管體系之意願,並扶植租賃住宅服務業,並提升居住品質及健全租賃住宅市場。提案人委員牛煦庭等7人,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":16994.855,"end":16998.277,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":17018.578,"end":17043.35,"text":"好 謝謝大家 大家都辛苦了 現在已經是1點14分我們的列席官員也都沒有用餐為了體恤大家 我們現在趕快來宣布一下經剛剛各黨團協商的結果 我在這邊宣告第34條、第38條、第38條之二以及增訂第38條之三的條文 我們通通保留協商並且通過兩項附帶決議 請問有無異議"},{"start":17047.705,"end":17047.965,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":17078.266,"end":17099.809,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":17100.169,"end":17100.189,"text":"都會"},{"start":17121.049,"end":17138.017,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":17142.688,"end":17161.768,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":17178.647,"end":17195.688,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十"},{"start":17196.189,"end":17214.997,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}