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七年對不對 如果是發展組織 七年以上啊 七年以上 對啊課長文書勒 課長是五年以下一個重罪 一個輕罪啊 你們有辦嗎你們有共諜案 連環報 八字不通話 統幹單文問你你們有傳訊游錫坤 有傳訊吳釗燮有傳釋 傳訊你餘諜嗎"},{"start":105.558,"end":131.813,"text":"你們有去大搜索嗎 有去那邊加或者是總統府 國安局 國安會或者是外交部有押嗎 有押任何一個人嗎爭吵不公開齁 我跟委員報告齁反正這是個案的問題 我沒辦法去做一個回答這麼多就是通案囉 也是一個案喔那不是有羈押的 羈押的不少人了嗎有羈押的 像吳尚偉等的有被羈押了嗎那這些老闆 這些老闆他的住所沒有一個有被傳嗎"},{"start":133.528,"end":147.105,"text":"這個我沒辦法去回答這個問題完全這個這個案件依照案件的一個證據收證的程度我相信檢察官他會做整個一個案件的一個偵查這個計畫所以我沒辦法幫你回答這個問題你很負責任何講好啦 吳釗燮好了我沒辦法"},{"start":150.088,"end":170.246,"text":"吳釗燮涉及的 來 來 等一下有沒有去他家裡搜索過 等一下 等一下有沒有去外交部搜索過我們要去干涉指揮檢察官去要搜索哪一個地點 要搜索哪一個對象那這是一個個案的一個問題 而且檢察官這麼多就是一個通案喔 而且你現在在這不是通案啦 這是個案啦五個 我問你這五個 我問你 來來 保證人 我問你"},{"start":172.108,"end":192.385,"text":"那五個案子你有任何去搜索任何人的這些涉案的這些人的家裡我想這個檢察認為案件有必要的話而且不是檢察說哪一個就說哪一個法院還要再法官還要再審核嘛那我想這個大家都已經大家都清楚的事情嘛這個也不是我當部長我沒辦法去"},{"start":193.306,"end":214.459,"text":"去指示檢查說你要收哪一個哪一個你要辦哪一個我沒辦法去干涉介入指導的個案的一個偵辦嘛但是我想說共諜案當然我們要嚴辦這是一個通案但是我們想是哪個個案你要辦到誰對啊你嚴辦你看這些相關的人都在外面趴趴走啊也沒有看到你辦啊還有嚴辦的話不然我們怎麼會收押呢這個不認為積壓的必要就收押了嘛你看國民黨這樣罵髒話罵髒話一關一關一關起來"},{"start":218.642,"end":225.549,"text":"結果你看這些人有辦嗎 民眾會有判斷的啦 為什麼會出現 辦懶不辦綠 辦小不辦大我問你一個 四月二十六日 有二十五萬人上街頭 你知道他們在抗議什麼抗議的訴求 主要訴求是什麼 二十萬人上了街頭"},{"start":243.595,"end":270.507,"text":"那天主要的抗議的訴求是什麼?人民為什麼怒火?我想上場都有他自己的想法啦這個訴求你都不重視民意嗎?有不同的訴求我沒有去做這樣的特別去研究這些那天主要啊反對獨裁的最重要那天最熱的就是司法不公啦我給你看民調不是只有人民用腳這個表態那麼多人出來怒火看看最新民調"},{"start":273.514,"end":287.23,"text":"57.9%的民眾認為政治力介入了檢調機關的辦案57.6%認為政治力介入了司法案件59.3%認為政府譴責性辦案"},{"start":290.885,"end":306.682,"text":"所以委員你也不要叫我說要去叫起來辦哪一個人啦我認為這個就不是你看了我們就覺得很沒有面子你看了這三個民調你就是叫我說你要辦哪一個辦哪一個辦哪一個我認為這個是我沒有叫你辦哪一個我叫你通案"},{"start":307.463,"end":322.756,"text":"你在辦這個指引連署的時候你這麼大力你在大搜手大搜押我這邊沒有看到你該有的動作這兩個都是通 兩個這麼多這麼多案子啊不要保證我現在問你啦不是給他二十五萬人上街啦你看到這三個民調你有覺得連上很無光嗎愧對你的職責嗎你是發不保證欸這民調你不覺得"},{"start":334.546,"end":362.503,"text":"檢調那麼辛苦在捍衛我們人權跟法治給個人民一下對你們的觀感是這樣子說委員檢調可以我部長怎麼去介入呢不是介入你領導你當法務部長你看到這個沒有難過嗎你沒有做一些改革嗎沒有反省嗎那你認為是檢調就要偵辦這些犯罪難道是還要再分不同的這些這個可以辦那個不應該辦他沒有這種事情反正有涉及犯罪都該辦嘛"},{"start":367.464,"end":381.432,"text":"59.3%認為你正譜就是選擇性辦案但我不曉得這個民調是怎樣當然可以檢討啦這美麗島電子報啊這兩個禮拜是最熱門的新聞耶最重要是你到底從裡面得到一些反省跟檢討法定 什麼叫做選擇性辦案"},{"start":386.363,"end":397.531,"text":"我們沒有選擇性辦案 凡是有涉及犯罪性...人民就是這樣認為嘛 對不對那這個問題記不具體政治力有沒有介入檢調機關辦案這個題目還不夠清楚嗎好 來 我們繼續來談一個你這段時間在辦的啊死亡連署我怎麼說"},{"start":411.877,"end":439.807,"text":"跟這個共諜案比起來一個大一個小第二個來看一段話這是以前做法官的時候的李敬榮現在中選會主委李敬榮說的他說啦雖然我有偽造文書但是你們不要擔心因為沒有實質傷害所以我不會有罪這個是這段時間你們在大搜手在大搜押這些往生者幽靈靈所這很多人在提醒你的大砲打學長輕罪"},{"start":442.418,"end":444.302,"text":"你看李靖遠為什麼這樣講李靖遠為什麼這樣講他能產生什麼實質上的傷害"},{"start":454.047,"end":476.642,"text":"這個死亡連署的這種 就像我講說死人不會從你爬出來再做一個連署啦那我是認為啦 我認為 反制和涉及犯罪就該辦所以大院的委員該辦是不是有個比例延遲 法治國基本的比例延遲是不是被你迫害了延遲不死 這嚴重違反 違反侵蝕民主政治的基石所以這個要延辦"},{"start":477.883,"end":492.029,"text":"我想這個大院委員都是有志一統就是把那個那個那個 你是說不保證啦講法 不要破壞法治保證來來來 保證我問你一下你現在用的是第200 刑法 委員你的意思是叫我不要再去叫檢討說委託委員都不要辦嗎 是不是這樣"},{"start":493.49,"end":516.002,"text":"你一直所有犯罪都辦啊可是你大小總有分啊現在人民為什麼有那麼多說你是選擇性辦案你共諜案也不辦大的案子不辦共諜怎麼辦如果沒有不辦那怎麼可能會被收押呢而且辦案都不分檔案嘛你一直繞在那個繞在那幾個五個五個案子對不對押了四個人一個人二十萬交保出去人民都笑你們的人民在笑我們的司法這共諜案啊比這個幽靈連署還要輕欸"},{"start":523.479,"end":532.921,"text":"更重要來 萬鵬尼 你是 萬鵬尼你用刑法第210條 偽造文書版嘛 對不對他的要件是什麼偽造文書要成立的要件是什麼偽造編造他人之私生什麼 損害於什麼之他人啊損害於公眾跟個人好 那請問 請問剛才 李敬榮是要說你再看一次李敬榮講的話"},{"start":553.869,"end":576.822,"text":"他偽造文書李部長 李委員那個主委他當時這個背景我不清楚這1985年 你說1985年4月的一個發言我不曉得是哪個個案 這個我不清楚大搜手他 大搜押他嗎這我沒有辦法對一個我不清楚的個案表示任何意見"},{"start":578.41,"end":581.619,"text":"如果就他用的這個刑法第210條要損害於公眾跟個人嘛"},{"start":586.36,"end":605.029,"text":"那你連署你的互義證如果連署沒有損害公眾跟他人嗎這個嚴重影響 嚴重侵蝕民主政治的基石真的選舉可以去用作票作假嗎我想全民是沒辦法去接受的先不要講輕罪跟重罪來來來 我問你一個重點來來來你的連署要不要經過互義證系統的這個檢核會不會塞掉"},{"start":615.697,"end":626.549,"text":"你連署完之後包括罷免吳思瑤的這些人他第一個拿到送到中選會要做什麼違照文書本來就是集成犯了嘛你只要違照他們的署押這個就是發生損害了嘛你的護意證系統會剔除掉嘛對不對有損害嗎"},{"start":635.595,"end":657.738,"text":"怎麼會沒損害 又假冒假冒了你的名字去叫我想這個孫生損害這個事只要圍繞他女兒的鼠丫一層就是會出生損害啦連部長你問一下幕僚亂講法律怎麼這樣規定的你自身損害他的那個你問一下幕僚這樣會不好意思會讓人家笑話 張偉不要打插話不是 我怕部長讓人家笑話啦"},{"start":659.462,"end":671.593,"text":"在這邊是全民直播喔 全民都在看喔我剛剛跟你講 第一個我拿了李進隆的案例給你看第二個我是就法認法跟你講刑務法第210條 更重要的我們的中選會 我們的互義證系統是要篩選的你如果有死人連署 篩選就剔除了嘛 對不對有對連署發生影響嗎這個案子會成立嗎 例如說吳思瑤那邊吳思瑤那邊的如果有死亡連署你後來會照這還有各自法的問題嘛"},{"start":688.353,"end":691.415,"text":"什麼司法問題你救法論法你這個問題要不要去補救這個會不會是這個案本來就是我從民調還有二十萬人上街頭一直跟你講到法律的這個問題連民進黨啊民進黨的人都高喊林黛嬅說政治啊干預了司法司法又去干預了這個初選然後呢民進黨政府下指導旗司法介入"},{"start":719.841,"end":739.295,"text":"斑斑可考虎鑿斑斑 你看你有沒有聽到民進黨的辭職令上面說國民黨這個事情是系統性的組織犯罪是系統性的組織犯罪嗎你目前去搜索用的是什麼罪你壓人用什麼 有用系統性組織犯罪嗎 有沒有"},{"start":743.007,"end":767.336,"text":"這個案件是檢查在偵辦中會涉及到其他的一個犯罪我想我想這個這個我沒辦法去救個案的隊去去做一個報告你那麼多案子那是不是林佑昌講的系統性的組織犯罪我問你一個最明確的郭民眾正在做直播說禮拜三啊現在搜索過台北市黨部新北市黨部台南市黨部禮拜三要去搜索大搜索國民黨"},{"start":769.845,"end":791.885,"text":"這個是一個個案有沒有看到會搜索那個地點那個檢察會申請法院來核發這是另狀主義的嘛如果說可不可以說有沒有必要性這個不是檢察說了就直接就有辦法去執行的這還要經過法院的一個審的開法院開搜索票我們依照法院開的說法去做執行的嘛"},{"start":793.581,"end":817.299,"text":"而且司法法院本來就是獨立的嘛那怎麼會司法介入呢 那個政治介入呢 黨政黨介入呢所以民眾從民調裡面 20萬人的上街頭吶喊還有民眾的民調的對你們的提醒跟警示 你完全都沒有感覺你都沒有覺得說你們要好好做個檢討要去反省嗎我用一個最具體的做一個總結好了 包括調查局局長跟部長"},{"start":819.522,"end":835.642,"text":"那麼多的民眾說你們 選擇性辦案我聽到人們啊 到目前為止中選會告發了他告發了國民黨跟 國民黨去罷免民進黨的民進黨去罷免國民黨 對不對我聽到那百分之九 五比零嘛 對不對"},{"start":837.165,"end":865.388,"text":"你說 你說你們會證明你們不會選擇性辦案都辦啊 因為委員沒有注意到新聞對啦 五比零嘛 五比零的新聞都辦嘛不要啊 現在多少都辦了 台中的部分你可能沒有注意到新聞 都辦現在幾比幾幾比幾 具體我現在手上11比1啦 對不對沒有沒有民進黨現在辦了 基隆還辦哪裡不止不止不止台中喔 兩個是不是然後基隆 基隆 你看 你有收手嗎"},{"start":868.584,"end":891.871,"text":"基隆你有搜索嗎不是啊 搜索是為了要保全證據對啊 現在國民黨像你這些十幾個地方都被你搜索民進黨的沒有搜索 用約談的方式回來一兩個小時還請回所以人民才會說你選擇性辦案嘛我想具體的個案的內容我沒辦法跟你說明但是都辦了 都辦了"},{"start":894.307,"end":913.325,"text":"人民的眼睛是血亮的不要輕忽不要看低台灣人民的水準已經那麼清楚公不公正人民會做判斷我已經跟你講了11比2上次5比0然後你辦國民黨是大收手大收押再這樣繼續下去我跟你講民調還會繼續再掉"},{"start":914.929,"end":943.488,"text":"你們的歷史定會出很大問題你們對尤其說的剪掉剪掉人眼嗎我想在這個過程裡面檢察官跟調查官都是依法依法這個來公正的執法這個我們非常非常有信心這個委員謝謝委員的施法有他的天平啦人民心中也有一把尺啦人民隨時在幫你們打分數啦希望下次你們分數可以升高我最後做一個總結啦請一起保定 決定我一直捍衛司法的正義不要再受到任何政治的干預"},{"start":947.309,"end":963.696,"text":"維護公平的這個中立不要為特定的政黨服務嚴守司法的分際不枉法不濫權人民心中有一把尺人民眼睛也是血亮的大家都盯著你們在看期待你們去聽得起考驗了謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":916,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時44分）謝謝主席，請鄭部長跟陳局長。"],["主席：麻煩鄭部長、陳局長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：剛才吳思瑤委員一直在說我們這會期是國安會期，最近民進黨的共諜案連環爆，敵人就在本能寺，吳思瑤講得這麼重要，部長跟局長，你們有沒有像在辦連署案一樣去大搜索、大收押？部長，共諜案跟死人連署，哪一個罪比較重？"],["鄭部長銘謙：都很重要的案件。"],["張委員啓楷：都很重要，刑責差很多，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：刑責當然是有些差別。"],["張委員啓楷：共諜案如果涉國安法，是幾年？"],["鄭部長銘謙：共諜……看法條是七年。"],["張委員啓楷：七年，對不對？如果是發展組織，七年以上。"],["鄭部長銘謙：七年以上。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，偽造文書呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：偽造是五年以下。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！一個重罪，一個輕罪啊！你們有辦嗎？共諜案連環爆，爆這麼多，現在最簡單的，我問你，你們有傳訊游錫堃、有傳訊吳釗燮、有傳訊李余典嗎？你們有去大搜索嗎？有去他們家或者是總統府、國安會或者是外交部，有押嗎？有押任何一個人嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：偵查不公開，我跟委員報告，凡是個案的問題，我沒辦法去做一個回答。"],["張委員啓楷：這麼多就是通案，不是一個案喔！"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是有羈押了不少人了嗎？羈押了像吳尚雨等的，有被羈押了。"],["張委員啓楷：這些老闆還有住所，沒有一個有被傳嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法回答這個問題，這個案件是依照案件證據蒐證的程度，我相信檢察官會就整個案件做偵查計畫，所以我沒辦法回答這個問題。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你很負責任地講，吳釗燮好了……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法……"],["張委員啓楷：吳釗燮涉及的，第一、有沒有去他家裡搜索過？第二、有沒有去外交部搜索過？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法干涉或指揮檢察官要搜索哪個地點、要搜索哪個對象，這是個案的問題，而且偵查不公開……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這麼多就是通案啊！而且你現在在……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是通案，這是個案啦！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我問你，針對那五個案子，你有去搜索任何一個涉案人家裡的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：要不要搜索，我想是檢察官認為案件有必要的話，而且不是檢察官說搜哪一個就搜哪一個，法官還要再審核嘛！我想這是大家都已經清楚的事情，我當部長我沒辦法去指示檢察官說你要搜哪一個、你要辦哪一個，我沒辦法去干涉、介入或指導個案的偵辦。當然共諜案我們要嚴辦，這是一個通案，但是我們講是哪一個個案、你要辦到誰……"],["張委員啓楷：你說要嚴辦，但你看這些相關的人都在外面趴趴走，也沒有看到你辦啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有嚴辦的話，我們怎麼會收押呢？我們認為有羈押的必要就收押了嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：你看國民黨像肉粽一樣一直串起來，結果你看這些人有辦嗎？民眾會有判斷的啦！為什麼會出現辦藍不辦綠、辦小不辦大？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有什麼辦藍不辦綠，我想就是毋枉毋縱，反正涉及犯罪檢調就會辦了嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我問你一下，4月26日有25萬人上街頭，你知道他們在抗議什麼嗎？抗議的主要訴求是什麼？25萬人上了街頭，那天主要的抗議訴求是什麼？人民為什麼怒吼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這些人上街頭都有他們自己的想法，每個人都有他的訴求……"],["張委員啓楷：你知道嗎？你知道嗎？你都不重視民意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個人都有不同的訴求，我沒有特別去研究這些……"],["張委員啓楷：那一天主要是反對獨裁，那一天最重要的就是抗議司法不公，我給你看民調，不是只有人民用腳表態，那麼多人出來怒吼。看一下最新民調，57.9%的民眾認為政治力介入了檢調機關的辦案，57.6%的民眾認為政治力介入了司法案件，59.3%的民眾認為政府選擇性辦案。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以委員你也不要叫我說要去叫檢察官辦哪一個人，我認為這個就不適當……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你看了有沒有覺得很沒有面子？你看了這三個民調，你……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我在立法院，委員就是叫我說你要辦哪一個、辦哪一個，我認為這個是……"],["張委員啓楷：我沒有叫你辦哪一個，我叫你通案處理……"],["鄭部長銘謙：有涉及犯罪的，我們都會嚴辦……"],["張委員啓楷：你在辦死人連署的時候這麼大力，你在大搜索、大收押，但另外這邊我們並沒有看到你該有的動作，這兩個都有這麼多案子啊！部長，我現在問你，其實不是只有25萬人上街，你看到這三個民調，你有覺得臉上很無光嗎？愧對你的職責嗎？你是法務部長耶！看到這份民調你不覺得……檢調這麼辛苦在捍衛我們的人權跟法治，結果人民現在對你們的觀感是這樣子！"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，「檢調」我身為部長怎麼去介入呢？"],["張委員啓楷：不是介入，你當法務部長看到這個沒有難過嗎？你不用做一些改革嗎？沒有反省嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：你認為檢調要偵辦這些犯罪時，難道還要再分不同的……這個可以辦、那個不應該辦嗎？沒有這種事情，凡事有涉及犯罪都應該要辦嘛，而且都是……"],["張委員啓楷：59.3%的民眾認為政府就是選擇性辦案嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不曉得這個民調是從哪裡來，當然可以參考啦……"],["張委員啓楷：這是美麗島電子報啊！這是這一、兩個禮拜最熱門的新聞耶！最重要的是你到底有沒有從裡面得到一些反省和檢討？部長，什麼叫做選擇性辦案？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們沒有選擇性辦案，凡是有涉及犯罪嫌疑的我們就應該要辦……"],["張委員啓楷：人民就是這樣認為嘛，對不對？這個問得具不具體？「政治力有沒有介入檢調機關辦案？」這個題目還不夠清楚嗎？","好，我們繼續來談，你這段時間在辦的死亡連署，我剛才說跟共諜案比起來是一個大、一個小。第二個，我們來看一段話，這是時任法官的現任中選會主委李進勇說的，他說：雖然我有偽造文書，但是你們不要擔心，因為沒有實質傷害，所以我不會有罪。這段時間你們在大搜索、大收押這些往生者幽靈連署的時候，很多人就在提醒你了，不要大炮打小鳥、輕罪，你看李進勇為什麼這樣講？它能產生什麼實質上的傷害？"],["鄭部長銘謙：關於死亡連署的這一種，就像我們講說死人不會爬出來連署啦，我認為凡是涉及犯罪就該辦，所以大院的委員……"],["張委員啓楷：該辦是不是有一個比例原則？法治國家基本的比例原則是不是被你破壞了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：大院的委員也修法通過了，這已經嚴重侵蝕民主政治的基石，所以這個要嚴辦。我想大院委員都是有志一同，就是把……"],["張委員啓楷：你是法務部長，你的講法不要破壞法治國……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我完全是在執行法律……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我問你一下，你現在用的是刑法第二百……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，你的意思是叫我去叫檢察官說偽造文書都不要辦嗎？是不是這樣？"],["張委員啓楷：所有的犯罪都辦啊，可是你大小總有分啊！現在為什麼有麼多人民說你是選擇性辦案，你共諜案不辦、大的案子也不辦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：共諜案如果沒有辦，那怎麼會有人被收押呢？而且辦案都不分黨派嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：你一直繞在那幾個點，五個案子押了4個人，一個人還20萬交保出去，人民都在笑你們了，人民在笑我們的司法是共諜案比幽靈連署還要輕耶！更重要的我問你，你用刑法第二百十條偽造文書來辦對不對？它的要件是什麼？偽造文書成立的要件是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：偽造、變造他人之私文書……"],["張委員啓楷：足以生損害於什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他人啊！"],["張委員啓楷：損害於公眾跟個人。"],["鄭部長銘謙：他人。"],["張委員啓楷：李進勇是這樣講的，你再看一次李進勇講的話，他說偽造文書……"],["鄭部長銘謙：你不要拿李進勇來當例子，李進勇主委當時講這些話的背景我不清楚，你說這是他在1985年4月的發言，我不曉得是哪個個案，這個我不清楚……"],["張委員啓楷：要去把李進勇抓回來關是不是？大搜索他、大收押他嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有辦法對一個我不清楚的個案表示任何意見。"],["張委員啓楷：他用的就是刑法第二百十條，要足以生損害於公眾或個人嘛！那你連署經過戶、役政……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個連署沒有損害於公眾跟他人嗎？這個嚴重影響及侵蝕民主政治的基石，任何的選舉可以做票、做假嗎？我想這是全民沒辦法接受的。"],["張委員啓楷：先不要講輕罪跟重罪，部長，我問你一個最重要的重點，連署要不要經過戶、役政系統的檢核？會不會篩掉？連署完之後，包括罷免吳思瑤的這些人，他第一個送到中選會要做什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，偽造文書本來就是即成犯了嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：即成犯？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，你只要偽造他人的署押，這個當然就是發生損害了嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：戶役政系統會剔除掉嘛，對不對？有損害嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：怎麼會沒有損害？"],["張委員啓楷：假冒了你的名字去……"],["鄭部長銘謙：只要偽造他人的署押，就是會足生損害了啊！"],["張委員啓楷：連召委都看不下去了！"],["主席：部長，你問問後面的幕僚，不要亂講，法律怎麼是這樣規定的？關於足以生損害公眾或他人的構成要件，你問一下幕僚，這樣會不好意思、會讓人家笑話！"],["吳委員思瑤：召委不要插話。"],["主席：我怕部長讓人家笑話啦！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，在這邊是全民直播、全民都在看喔！"],["吳委員思瑤：我怕委員才會讓人家笑話！"],["張委員啓楷：我剛剛跟你講的，第一個我拿了李進勇的案例給你看。第二個我是就法論法跟你講刑法第二百十條。更重要的，我們的戶役政系統是要篩選的，如果有死人連署，篩選時就剔除了嘛，對不對？有對連署發生影響嗎？這個案子會成立嗎？例如吳思瑤那邊的如果有死亡連署……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，不是只有偽造文書的問題，還有個資法的問題嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：什麼司法問題？你就法論法，這個問題你要不要去補救？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個個案本來就是一個判斷嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：我從民調、25萬人上街頭，一直跟你講到法律的問題，連民進黨的人都在高喊，林岱樺說政治干預了司法、司法又干預了初選，然後民進黨政府下指導棋、司法介入，斑斑可考、斧鑿斑斑！你看民進黨秘書長林右昌竟然說國民黨這件事情是系統性的組織犯罪，請問這是系統性的組織犯罪嗎？你目前去搜索用的是什麼罪？你押人用什麼？有用系統性組織犯罪嗎？有嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個案件檢察官正在偵辦中，是否會涉及到其他犯罪，我想我沒辦法就個案進行報告。"],["張委員啓楷：有那麼多案子，是不是林右昌講的系統性的組織犯罪？我問你一個最明確的，國民黨現在正在直播，說現在搜索過臺北市黨部、新北市黨部、臺南市黨部，禮拜三要去大搜索國民黨。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是一個個案，個案會搜索哪個地點，檢調會聲請法院來核發，這是令狀主義的。可不可以搜、有沒有必要性，這個也不是檢察官說了就直接有辦法去執行的，還要經過法院的審核、法院開搜索票，我們依照法院開的搜索票去執行的。而且司法、法院本來就是獨立的，怎麼會政治介入呢？黨政高層介入呢？"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，所以你……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，你誤會啦，沒有這回事啦！沒這回事，誤會啦！"],["張委員啓楷：所以25萬人上街頭吶喊，還有民眾的民調對你們的提醒跟警示，你完全都沒有感覺？你都沒有覺得你們要好好檢討、要去反省嗎？我用一個最具體的做總結好了。請教調查局局長跟部長，那麼多的民眾說你們選擇性辦案，我上次就問了，到目前為止，中選會告發了國民黨去罷免民進黨的、民進黨罷免國民黨的，對不對？我前兩個禮拜問過，局長，5比0，對不對？你說你們會證明你們不會選擇性辦案。"],["陳局長白立：都辦了啊，可能委員沒有注意到新聞，都辦了。"],["張委員啓楷：對，5比0，0表示沒有辦嘛。"],["陳局長白立：沒有、沒有，現在沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：如果沒有，現在是多少？現在11比……"],["陳局長白立：都辦了，你注意臺中的部分。"],["鄭部長銘謙：臺中也是，基隆也是啊……"],["陳局長白立：你可能沒有注意到新聞，都辦了。基隆……"],["張委員啓楷：現在幾比幾？"],["陳局長白立：幾比幾？具體數字我現在手上沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：11比1啦！對不對？"],["陳局長白立：沒有、沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：民進黨的部分現在除了基隆，還有辦哪裡？"],["陳局長白立：不只、不只、不只。"],["鄭部長銘謙：臺中的……"],["張委員啓楷：臺中2個，是不是？"],["陳局長白立：偵查中的案件，對，我沒辦法跟你說明。"],["張委員啓楷：然後基隆，你看，你有搜索嗎？基隆你有搜索嗎？"],["陳局長白立：不是，搜索是為了要保全證據……"],["張委員啓楷：對呀，為什麼國民黨那麼多、十幾個地方都被你搜索，民進黨的沒有搜索，用約談的方式？"],["陳局長白立：這個檢察官依照個案……"],["張委員啓楷：回來一、兩個小時，還請回！所以人民才會說你選擇性辦案嘛！這個東西夠不夠具體？"],["陳局長白立：我想具體個案的內容，我沒辦法跟你說明，但是都辦了，都辦了。檢察官不會有選擇性……"],["張委員啓楷：人民的眼睛是雪亮的，不要輕忽、不要看低臺灣人民的水準！已經那麼清楚……"],["陳局長白立：我們知道，我們一定非常公正。"],["張委員啓楷：公不公正，人民會做判斷。我剛剛已經跟你講了，11比2，上次5比0，然後你辦國民黨是大搜索、大收押。再這樣繼續下去，我跟你講，民調還會繼續再掉，你們的歷史定位會出很大的問題，你們對得起所有的檢調人員嗎？"],["陳局長白立：我想在這個過程裡面，檢察官跟調查官都是依法來公正地執法，這個我們非常非常有信心，謝謝委員的指導。"],["張委員啓楷：在人民心中，司法有它的天平，人民心中也有一把尺……"],["陳局長白立：是，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：人民隨時在幫你們打分數，希望下次你們的分數可以升高。","我最後做一個總結。部長、局長，我們一起捍衛司法的正義，不要再受到任何政治的干預；維護司法公平中立，不要為特定的政黨服務；嚴守司法的分際，不枉法、不濫權。人民心中有一把尺，人民的眼睛也是雪亮的，大家都盯著你們看，期待你們是經得起考驗的。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們先處理會議時間，上午會議時間持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","部長，我要跟你報告，為什麼剛剛我會插嘴？因為部長剛剛講錯了，出去會被人家笑，刑法第二百十條偽造文書罪及第二百十七條偽造印章印文或署押罪的成立，還要有「足生損害於公眾或他人」，它是構成要件的一部分，不是偽造就構成犯罪。"],["鄭部長銘謙：構成要件的一部分，那是個案。"],["主席：沒關係。","下一位請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}