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答不出來來 換一個陸委會來答答看"},{"start":260.455,"end":270.957,"text":"五個總統無選 搞不好無選五啦 你打五個也可以啦哪一個這個可能不涉及到陸委會的執政不涉及到 萊豪請部長這個不是我們法務部主管的業務 我沒辦法回答這個問題我告訴你啦 就算沒有嘗試 也可以常看新聞"},{"start":287.116,"end":315.157,"text":"就算不了解狀況我相信所有的社會現狀的報導各位都心知肚明只是你們說不出這句話人家經濟學人講的社會劇烈對抗其所本是什麼身為一個總統他有和諧跟團結國家的高度象徵意義他竟然具名發文"},{"start":316.243,"end":344.805,"text":"以黨主席身份要求全黨公職來投入對在野黨的大罷免我跟你講這不就是創造中共的可趁之機嗎李登輝做不到陳水扁做不到馬英九當然做不到蔡英文也做不到就我們現在賴清德總統做得到"},{"start":348.804,"end":371.025,"text":"難怪我告訴你今天台灣情況越來越危險因為當一個總統把所有的心力都放在罷免在野黨搜索所有在野黨的黨部全國性搜索各個在野黨的黨部"},{"start":372.128,"end":394.985,"text":"我還要再問一下局長 我一樣給你這個五個題目啦李登輝總統曾經他主政的時候的檢調有搜索全部的在野黨黨部他有去搜嗎 有沒有有沒有這個跟我國安局的職長是沒有相關的所以我們我告訴你沒有啦告訴你沒有啦陳隨便也沒有啦馬英九也沒有啦"},{"start":402.023,"end":429.381,"text":"就我們戴清德總統然後剛剛我看很多的詢答一而再再而三強調 勿往勿重啊勿往勿重啊我要回頭說今天不只經濟學人提出這樣一個說法美國的外交政策網站刊登華府卡內基國際和平基金研究員的文章他說川普應遏止台灣"},{"start":431.431,"end":460.491,"text":"然後說賴清哲總統不斷強調台灣主權獨立一步步增進北京動武風險要川普總統仿效布希時期做法要求台北自治以維持台海穩定避免美國遭受波及捲入戰爭這個觀點有人認同有人不認同但是不管是認同跟不認同說真的我們的外交跟國安部門都要去警覺一件事情"},{"start":461.923,"end":490.608,"text":"美國有這樣的聲音存在對我們絕對不是一件好事這一點我相信國安局應該認同吧有這樣的聲音存在應該對台灣不是好事吧是不是這總會是國安相關事務了吧我想任何的一個評論當然我們都會收集會做一個研判謝謝你 作為幕僚很辛苦我們留我們的部長其他的請回"},{"start":494.4,"end":517.69,"text":"部長 共諜案連環報 總統府立法院外交部都被滲透國安機密從總統府跟外交國安首長身邊源源的流向對岸我看這件事情我是很有感觸 為什麼因為我在總統府工作過 我曾經擔任總統府的副秘書長"},{"start":520.014,"end":547.026,"text":"尤其像何仁傑他擔任吳釗燮幕僚長達13年靠吳釗燮一路提拔進入總統府外交部國安會那吳釗燮在外交部長任內六年斷八國我們國安局長也請來一下 國安局的副局長那麼我想請教我們的外交策略跟戰略布局總統外交初期的規劃的機密"},{"start":550.609,"end":578.832,"text":"不是被北京當局精準掌握了嗎有沒有這個風險 請問我們的副局長是 當然是有這個風險所以在政府總統的隨乎安全人員是我們特別要在安全考核的一個對象然後我要告訴你另外一件事情事實上我們賴清德總統面對這件事情他的回應"},{"start":580.54,"end":596.042,"text":"我也想請教一下他說執政黨的黨工都是收買對象在野黨也一樣各行各業都是中國的收買對象然後但是目前我看到被揭露做中共內應的"},{"start":597.802,"end":624.278,"text":"主要就是吳釗燮秘書長辦公室的何仁傑總統府總統辦公室的姿意吳尚宇立法院前院長游錫堃辦公室助理盛楚英民進黨民主學院前副主任邱士源以及新北市議員李語典特助黃曲榮等五人當然我知道你們一定說個案不洩露啦但是我要講一件事情"},{"start":627.623,"end":652.468,"text":"還有其他人涉案嗎我這個問題你一定說個案不介入啦可是我就要問一個問題第一個有沒有跟我們的吳釗燮秘書長好好的談一談了解一下我們現在到底泄密的範圍有多大我還沒講搜索啦我沒有講搜索我只是說起碼跟吳釗燮秘書長談一談有沒有做這件事情有沒有"},{"start":654.253,"end":676.693,"text":"這個是偵辦的個案 所以我們也不便去做一個說明偵辦的個案 其實我跟你講如果是在總統府 我在總統府的時候我們的外交官發生這種事情我告訴你 我做總統府發言人 我一定有出來說明的義務沒有叫你交代細節"},{"start":678.683,"end":702.417,"text":"你起碼告訴國人今天吳釗燮我坦蕩蕩我也接受相關單位的詢問來幫忙協助做損害控管我不知道為什麼連這一件事情都做不到照你所說的否認那我解讀是沒有喔這個是沒做囉是這樣嗎部長"},{"start":707.95,"end":733.598,"text":"我沒辦法去這是個案嘛 就是回到了個案嘛你個案講了一萬遍有對啊 這個個案我沒辦法說好啦 沒關係 我告訴你你一貫就用個案來講但是我還是要講一件事情國人有知的權利我也不是在怪我們今天的法務部啊 國安局啊或是我們的檢調機關啊而是今天"},{"start":735.046,"end":745.318,"text":"怎麼會總統府這件事情沒藥沒金呢真的如果我是在總統府的時候這個事情媒體不可能放過我啦"},{"start":746.26,"end":770.09,"text":"我也不可能交代案情 我站出來不會說 不會啦 我跟你講我們的這個國安會秘書長 我們總統府的那個 我們的總統我們都已經1510 ABCDEFG五項 六項 七項的一個洩密範圍我們都已經跟這個司法單位已經說了我不可能透露到這麼細呀但是起碼安定國人的心這件事總要做嘛"},{"start":772.881,"end":799.435,"text":"就像部長喔 如果部裡發生什麼狀況你要安定民心的話 你部裡的發言人總要出來說話嘛對不對 沒錯吧我不是講個案啦 一些重大的法務部的重大事件你的部裡發言人要不要出來說一下我們法務部應該不會發生重大事件吧不會不會 你是太小看法務部了你太小看法務部 沒關係啦 我告訴你啦"},{"start":801.499,"end":822.766,"text":"就這麼一個道理嘛然後接下來我跟你講喔然後因為共諜案頻傳啊我覺得部長都訓練很好都不談個案可是我們的總統沒有啊直接一刀就是說在野黨也有啊在野黨有沒有總統說的對不對請問我們副局長"},{"start":826.27,"end":834.955,"text":"從歷次歷年來的一個統計執政黨或在野黨都有發生謝謝 你現在又補個案了因為總統講的話你也得要跟不是 我告訴你你作為總統你跟我講在野黨的個案是哪些 你告訴我你要知道總統府是總統府 國安會 外交部"},{"start":851.65,"end":874.691,"text":"你不要跟我講路人夾一筆你抓到共諜你要去跟總統府的幕僚比我要跟你講今天涉及的這個所謂的共諜案的總統府的辦公室之一吳尚宇還有我們這個吳釗燮的幕僚何仁傑我想請問你們他們是公務員嗎是正式的公務員嗎這種回答要出來吧"},{"start":878.601,"end":888.17,"text":"是不是方便由考試院或人總來做一個說明可以啊 沒關係 有單位說明就好來 有在嗎 人總我也好是嗎 他們是考國家考試進來的公務員嗎"},{"start":901.378,"end":928.804,"text":"委員您剛問的是吳尚宇啊他們是聘用人員答對了聘用人員是依照聘用條例經用所以不是依據任用法經用的人員非常好你看我們的人事人總回答得多清楚來請回謝謝你副局長我跟你講這個其實不用人總回啦你不可能不知道你們如果連這個都沒有掌握我就覺得會有一點小遺憾但是沒有關係啦我要先講一件事情"},{"start":930.41,"end":956.85,"text":"這些人其實都是從民進黨帶來的機要有時候我都覺得對我們現在公務單位有時候他們還是間接被連累感覺好像總統府被滲透 國安會被滲透不是 抱歉是賴清德的幕僚被滲透是吳釗燮的政治機要幕僚被滲透因為他們都是聘用的都不是文官系統出來的"},{"start":958.723,"end":985.446,"text":"所以我回頭講最後要講一件事情啦就是說基本上我當然支持啊你今天好好查辦所有的共諜但是另外一方面我也真的非常感慨啦我剛剛前面講了很多東西不管是罷免不管是對在野黨黨部的搜索這種所謂大殺四方的總統我只在賴清德身上看見以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1107,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時16分）主席，有請外交部、陸委會、國安局、法務部。"],["主席：請外交部、陸委會、國安局、法務部。"],["羅委員智強：經濟學人日前有一篇文章說，一場有關臺灣的超級強權危機即將來臨，它指出三大因素會將臺灣置於險境，其中有一部分說到，臺灣政府政治失能，成為中共灰色戰術企圖利用的弱點，也提到賴清德總統的強硬反制進一步加劇社會撕裂，讓中共有機可趁。我想請教一下各個部會，你們都是作為我們總統非常重要，不管是對內的治安，或是對於國家安全的重要幕僚單位，你們對於經濟學人這一篇文章的看法是什麼？先請外交部好了。"],["呂處長世壹：委員好。我是外交部人事處處長，對於這個部分，因為不在我們今天的業管範圍裡面，所以我沒有評論，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：好。來，我們請陸委會。"],["周處長鳴瑞：委員好。對於任何涉及到國家安全，我們都是非常慎重以待。"],["羅委員智強：好。請國安局。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。我想國安就是全體人民的國安，我們認為有關於國安的部分，一定要特別重視。"],["羅委員智強：好。請我們的部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想國安的問題是現在大家全民最關注的，凡有涉及一些建議，未來我們都會參採，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員智強：是。難怪經濟學人這麼寫了，這四位的回答跟沒回答也沒有差別太多，但沒關係，能不能回去也準備一個書面，看看你們怎麼去應對經濟學人這樣的說法？一個重點，賴清德總統，尤其對國內我們一些政治狀態的許多作法，加劇了社會的撕裂，也讓中共有機可趁。","我來請教國安局，事實上，不管是哪一位總統在任，中共對臺的威脅一直都存在，沒錯吧！"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["羅委員智強：但是，今天中共對臺的威脅有一個非常重要的著力點，就是當臺灣內部政治鬥爭、政治對抗越加激烈，臺灣的社會開始進入分化情況之下，是不是中共相對就比較有機可趁了？對不對？"],["黃副局長明昭：當然，我們內部的安定確實對中共的滲透，或者對我們的打擊是一個很大的……"],["羅委員智強：沒錯！所以我想問一個問題，請問李登輝前總統跟陳水扁前總統、馬英九前總統，跟蔡英文前總統，再加上我們現在的賴清德總統，有哪一個總統在他總統任內以黨主席的身分，下令要求全黨公職來推動在野黨的大罷免？哪一個總統有做這件事情？答不出來？換一個陸委會來答答看。五個總統，五選幾，搞不好五選五，你答五個也可以啦！哪一個？"],["周處長鳴瑞：報告委員，這個可能不涉及陸委會的職掌。"],["羅委員智強：喔，不涉及。來，我請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是我們法務部主管的業務，我沒辦法回答這個問題。"],["羅委員智強：非常好！我告訴你啦！就算沒有常識，也可以常看新聞，就算不了解狀況，我相信所有社會現狀的報導，各位都心知肚明，只是你們說不出這句話。人家經濟學人講的社會劇烈對抗，其所本是什麼？身為一個總統，他有和諧跟團結國家的高度象徵意義，他竟然具名發文，以黨主席身分要求全黨公職投入對在野黨的大罷免，我跟你講，這不就創造中共的可趁之機嗎？李登輝做不到，陳水扁做不到，馬英九當然做不到，蔡英文也做不到，就我們現在的賴清德總統做得到，難怪今天臺灣的情況越來越危險，因為當一個總統把所有心力都放在罷免在野黨、搜索所有在野黨黨部，全國性搜索各個在野黨黨部……我來問一下局長，我一樣給你五個題目，李登輝總統主政時候的檢調有搜索全部在野黨黨部嗎？有沒有？"],["黃副局長明昭：這個跟我國安局的職掌是沒有相關的，所以我們沒辦法回答。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，沒有啦！告訴你，沒有！陳水扁也沒有啦！馬英九也沒有啦！就我們賴清德總統。然後剛剛我看到很多詢答，一而再、再而三強調毋枉毋縱！我又回頭說，今天不只經濟學人提出這樣一個說法，美國的外交政策網站刊登華府卡內基國際和平基金研究員的文章，他說川普應遏止臺灣，然後說賴清德總統不斷強調臺灣主權獨立，一步步增進北京動武風險，要川普總統仿效布希時期作法，要求臺北自制，以維持臺海穩定，避免美國遭受波及，捲入戰爭。這個觀點有人認同，有人不認同，但是不管是認同跟不認同，說真的，我們的外交跟國安部門都要去警覺一件事情，美國有這樣的聲音存在，對我們絕對不是一件好事，這一點我相信國安局應該認同吧？有這樣的聲音存在，應該對臺灣不是好事吧？是不是？這總該是國安相關事務了吧？"],["黃副局長明昭：我想任何一個評論，當然我們都會蒐集、會研判。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你，作為幕僚很辛苦。好，我們留部長，其他的請回。","部長，共諜案連環爆，總統府、立法院、外交部都被滲透，國安機密從總統府跟外交、國安首長身邊源源的流向對岸。我看這件事情，我是很有感觸，為什麼？因為我在總統府工作過，我曾經擔任總統府的副秘書長，尤其像何仁傑，他擔任吳釗燮幕僚長達13年，靠吳釗燮一路提拔進入總統府、外交部、國安會，吳釗燮在外交部長任內，6年斷8國！國安局副局長也請來一下，我想請教，我們的外交策略跟戰略布局、總統外交出擊規劃的機密，不是被北京當局精準掌握了嗎？有沒有這個風險？請問副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：是，當然是有這個風險，所以正、副總統的隨扈安全人員是我們要特別加以安全考核的對象。"],["羅委員智強：然後我要告訴你另外一件事情，事實上，我們賴清德總統面對這件事情的回應，我也想請教一下。他說，執政黨的黨工都是收買對象，在野黨也一樣，各行各業都是中國的收買對象，但是目前我看到被揭露做中共內應的，主要就是吳釗燮秘書長辦公室的何仁傑、總統府總統辦公室的諮議吳尚雨、立法院前院長游錫堃辦公室助理盛礎纓、民進黨民主學院前副主任邱世元，以及新北市議員李余典特助黃取榮等五人。當然我知道你們一定說個案不洩露，但是我要講一件事情，還有其他人涉案嗎？我這個問題，你一定說個案不介入，可是我就要問一個問題，第一個，有沒有跟吳釗燮秘書長好好談一談，了解一下現在到底洩密的範圍有多大？我還沒講搜索，我只是說起碼要跟吳釗燮秘書長談一談，有沒有做這件事情？有沒有？"],["黃副局長明昭：這個是偵辦的個案，所以我們也不便說明。"],["羅委員智強：偵辦的個案。其實我跟你講，如果是我在總統府的時候，我們的外交、國安發生這種事情，我作為總統府發言人，我一定有出來說明的義務。我沒有叫你交代細節，你起碼要告訴國人，今天吳釗燮坦蕩蕩，他也接受相關單位的詢問，來幫忙協助做損害控管。我不知道為什麼連這一件事情都做不到，照你所說的否認，我的解讀是沒有，這件事沒做，是這樣嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法去……這是個案，就是回到個案……"],["羅委員智強：你個案講了1萬遍有了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對啊，這個是個案，我沒辦法……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，沒關係，你一貫就用個案來講，但是我還是要講一件事情，國人有知的權利，我也不是在怪法務部、國安局或是檢調機關，而是今天總統府怎麼會對這件事情無關緊要呢？真的！如果是我在總統府的時候，這個事情媒體不可能放過我，我也不可能交代案情，我站出來也不會說，我們的國安會秘書長、總統府、總統都已經一五一十、ABCDEFG、5項、6項、7項的洩密範圍跟司法單位說了，我不可能透露到這麼細，但是起碼安定國人的心，這件事總要做。就像部長，如果部裡發生什麼狀況，你要安定民心的話，部裡的發言人總要出來說話，對不對？沒錯吧？我不是講個案，一些法務部的重大事件，部裡的發言人要不要出來說一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們法務部應該不會發生重大事件。"],["羅委員智強：不會？你太小看法務部了，沒關係，我告訴你，就是這麼一個道理。接下來，因為共諜案頻傳，我覺得部長都訓練得很好、都不談個案，可是我們的總統沒有，直接一刀就說在野黨也有，在野黨有沒有？總統說的對不對？請問副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：從歷年來的統計，執政黨或在野黨都有發生。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝，你現在又不個案了，因為總統講的話你也得要跟。不是，我告訴你，作為總統，你跟我講在野黨個案是哪些？你要知道這是總統府、國安會、外交部，你不要跟我講路人甲、乙、丙抓到共諜，要去跟總統府的幕僚比，今天涉及所謂共諜案的總統府辦公室諮議吳尚雨，還有吳釗燮的幕僚何仁傑，我想請問你們，他們是公務員嗎？是正式的公務員嗎？這總回答的出來吧？"],["黃副局長明昭：是不是方便由考試院或人總來說明？"],["羅委員智強：可以，沒關係，有單位說明就好。人總有在嗎？"],["李處長花書：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：是嗎？他們是考國家考試進來的公務員嗎？"],["李處長花書：不好意思，委員，你剛剛問的是……"],["羅委員智強：吳尚雨。"],["李處長花書：他們是聘用人員。"],["羅委員智強：答對了。"],["李處長花書：聘用人員是依照聘用人員聘用條例進用，所以不是依據任用法進用的。"],["羅委員智強：對，非常好，你看我們的人總回答得多清楚，請回，謝謝。","副局長，我跟你講，這個其實不用人總回答，你不可能不知道，你們如果連這個都沒有掌握，我就覺得會有一點小遺憾，但是沒有關係，我要先講一件事情，這些人其實都是從民進黨帶來的機要，有時候我都覺得我們現在的公務單位還間接被連累，感覺好像總統府被滲透、國安會被滲透，不是！抱歉！是賴清德的幕僚被滲透，是吳釗燮的政治機要幕僚被滲透，因為他們都是聘用的，都不是文官系統出來的。所以我回頭講，最後講一件事情，基本上，我當然支持好好查辦所有的共諜案，但是另外一方面，我也真的非常感慨，我剛剛前面講了很多東西，不管是罷免，不管是對在野黨黨部的搜索，這種所謂大殺四方的總統，我只在賴清德身上看見，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：調查局局長，我剛剛質詢的時候有提到績效核分的那個事情，我想麻煩局長今天下午能夠提供給我們核分的項目表，因為那個是一定有的資料，請提供給我們，裡面要有級距等比較細緻的規定，給我們電子檔就可以，再麻煩給我辦公室。"],["陳局長白立：好，OK。"],["主席：謝謝局長。","所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束，委員質詢時有要求提供相關資料或以書面答復，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員徐欣瑩所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}