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你說過去沒有嘛那我說你可不可以承諾未來不會有你現在沒有辦法承諾 事情就這麼簡單嘛我有說錯嗎這不是一刀兩面的問題沒有關係啦 我相信齁今天剛剛左院長的說明啊把賴總統的意思講得非常清楚了"},{"start":124.061,"end":137.896,"text":"賴總統有沒有做這樣的承諾全體國人可以去評判但有一件事情是非常清楚的我們會高度的掌握談判的過程會確保國家的利益主席是不是可以請院長等我問完問題再回答"},{"start":138.416,"end":160.661,"text":"他這樣子一直插話恐怕不是很有禮貌吧我們相互尊重好不好好謝謝不過有一件事情賴總統應該是清楚的承諾啦2024總統大選以前賴總統承諾要針對有關於司法改革特別是司改國是會議接下來是不是有落實要建立一個常設性的司法改革委員會這個委員會什麼時候會成立"},{"start":162.833,"end":190.76,"text":"世華改革是隨時在進行的我們對世華改革的過程我們也知道所以這個承諾有沒有人要履行也不知道我們會依照沒有期限因為這個部分不是單是行政院可以處理的我們必須跟司法院還有高度的沒有辦法因為我問不到賴總統所以我只能請教你這個是賴總統做的承諾白紙黑字有歷史紀錄毫無疑問屬於行政院的我們在法務部系統我們會就內部趕快來做更多的"},{"start":191.701,"end":194.925,"text":"所以現在全體的國人沒有任何的機會可以請教我們的賴清德總統"},{"start":199.718,"end":229.078,"text":"你選前承諾全民的常設性的司法改革委員會有沒有要履行有沒有要兌現現在大家不知道嘛卓院長也沒有辦法幫賴總統回答嘛是這樣嗎司法改革我們隨時都在改革都在進行是啊現在我在問的是政見要不要履行嘛政見要不要履行嘛政見要不要履行就是賴總統可以決定的我有說錯嗎這麼具體的事情到現在還在講空話"},{"start":230.558,"end":257.148,"text":"賴總統選前所有的政見我們都一一在履行當中這個有履行嗎 設在哪裡清楚的跟國人講啊 大聲清楚跟國人講這個有履行嗎 設在哪裡這並非只有行政院的權責 我們還要尊重沒有關係 我接下來問行政院權責可以做的事情 兩公約第四次的國家報告什麼時候可以提出來兩公約第四次的國家報告絕對是行政院的權責什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":258.387,"end":279.999,"text":"如果我們原來有按定的時辰,我們就按照原來的時辰提出所以什麼時候要提出來我看看原來的時辰是什麼時候再跟委員報告你也不是很清楚喔你怎麼自己的施政報告自己都不熟啊我們如果有按到原來的時辰,我們就提出來這是你的施政報告我們就按照那個時辰提出來2025年6月要提出來"},{"start":281.281,"end":301.631,"text":"會準時提出來嗎?我們如果有按照時程再宣布的話就按照時程提出來不是啦,你敢再寫在施政報告的內容你自己要清楚嘛要不然立委沒有信心啊現在都不知道這個施政報告是誰提出來的嘛我為什麼要特別問兩公約的國家人權報告因為我們花了很多納稅人的錢"},{"start":303.427,"end":328.797,"text":"做國家報告找國際專家來審查但大家很困惑啊花了這麼多錢做國家報告找國際專家來審查真的有在落實嗎國際專家一而再戰而三質疑的事情行政院好像是言者遵遵聽者渺渺沒有落實也沒有關係啊我這樣講很抽象我現在邁入具體的事情2008年的時候"},{"start":330.818,"end":359.526,"text":"賴清德總統那個時候時任民主進步黨立法院黨團幹事長他有沒有針對民進黨第一次執政的時候沒有修改極右惡法向台灣社會道歉有沒有你也不知道沒有關係我準備好了來賴清德代表民進黨黨團向社會大眾致歉廢除極右惡法持續撂票那個時候的賴清德講了多麼動人的一段話他說"},{"start":360.7,"end":372.621,"text":"我要代表民主進步黨團向台灣社會大眾致歉過去我們主張報備制可是執政的時候沒有回應在野的訴求這是民進黨的不對"},{"start":375.114,"end":401.715,"text":"我們現在雖然成為在野黨但是不能推諉謝哲現在的執政黨如果還是用以前的藉口當藉口就會步入過去執政黨的後塵我在此提出特別語重心長的呼籲這個語重心長的呼籲不是我說的是賴清德總統說的現在關鍵的問題來了針對自由二法這件事情行政院有要推動修正嗎"},{"start":403.683,"end":413.553,"text":"目前我們沒有談論到這個話題目前沒有談論到這個話題好 那第二個問題我們目前的集會遊行二法有沒有違反公正公約"},{"start":416.412,"end":444.423,"text":"這個我們花納稅的錢做國家人權報告的審查結論很清楚啊我們目前的集合二法有沒有違反公正公約公正公約我提醒卓院長已經成為國內法了而且具有優惠的效力有沒有違反公正公約我們的集合法依照我國的國情目前的執行現在狀況是如此有沒有違反公正公約如果有進一步的檢討的時候我們會廣聽社會大眾共同的意見哇你們廣聽社會大眾的意見非常久啦"},{"start":446.103,"end":468.665,"text":"2008年的時候跟台灣社會道歉2025年的時候現在翻臉不認人啊現在我為什麼特別提出質詢這還不是喔這一點我不如委員這還不是喔把過去別人講的話記得那麼清楚對自己講的話也應該記得很清楚現在針對有關於政治承諾有沒有履行是一回事嗎有沒有違反法律的規定是另外一回事嗎"},{"start":469.773,"end":498.281,"text":"我說啦拿了納稅人的錢做了國家人權的審查報告找了國際的專家來審查最後的結論是什麼來我帶卓院長複習一下公正公約第21條的規定第一次的國家人權報告我們目前的勤惠遊行法違反公正公約第21條的規定許可制應該改成報配制禁制區要重新的檢討"},{"start":499.4,"end":517.532,"text":"自由法29條的刑罰違反公正公約21條的規定這都不是我說的這是我們的國家報告說的我們國家報告早就說了這件事啊我們花了納稅人的錢從民進黨2017年開始做第一次的國際審查報告2017年做國際審查報告的時候國際專家就在問啊他說你們"},{"start":522.847,"end":544.143,"text":"第一次的國家報告就承認違反公正公約你們承認違反公正公約又沒有要修法現在是在做什麼找國際專家來審查有何意義沒有意義啊自己的報告說違反公正公約國際專家問什麼時候要改我們的政府雙手一攤現在沒有要推動是這樣嗎"},{"start":547.658,"end":567.114,"text":"是這樣嗎這個委員關心的這些的問題齁那個第四次的國家審查報告是在下個月就會出來了那我想這部分應該有第二次的國家審查報告第三次的國家審查報告我剛所講的國際專家的質疑有說錯嗎這國家專家的質疑這部分我們會做一個檢討嘛會做一個檢討 對嘛所以我現在的問題就來了嘛"},{"start":573.476,"end":577.601,"text":"防務部部長說的正正有詞我們會檢討我現在的問題就來了從2017年檢討到現在"},{"start":582.168,"end":587.929,"text":"從2017年檢討到現在我有說錯嗎所以從2017年廣納到現在喔從2017年廣納到2025年喔是不是要廣納到2032年你們當初在回應國際審查專家的時候是說什麼這要廣納社會意見啊違反公正公約那我們就違反那要不然你要怎麼樣"},{"start":608.913,"end":635.259,"text":"是這種態度嗎是這種態度嗎委員 至少我們承認當初說過的話我們不會否認我們過去說過的話是啊然後呢 但是你沒有要做啊已經在檢討啊從2017年檢討到現在繼續檢討來 我告訴你國際審查專家講什麼講說到底是出於什麼原因還沒有修訂為什麼沒有修"},{"start":636.628,"end":661.367,"text":"這是2021年第三次國際審查的時候所提出來的第二次做國家報告做國際審查的時候花了多少錢?部長知不知道?這不能那個...花了多少錢?這個我沒有資料沒關係我告訴你花了614萬第三次找國際專家來花了多少錢知不知道?你也沒有資料沒關係我都幫你準備好了783萬"},{"start":663.626,"end":677.493,"text":"每一次花納稅人的錢花幾百萬花了以後找國際審查專家來大拜拜拜拜完了出了報告報告告訴你該修沒有修這個我不會同意委員說講什麼大拜拜啦"},{"start":678.765,"end":703.301,"text":"對嘛 如果不是大霸敗的話國際審查專家問的問題你們當初在回應的時候是像你今天在這邊這樣子的態度嗎是不是嘛你當初在回應國際審查專家的時候要不要把你今天在這邊回應記錄的話老老實實的第四次國際審查的時候就把你今天的話老老實實的告訴國際審查專家"},{"start":705.262,"end":727.669,"text":"我民進黨政府就是這個態度就是沒有要修嘛那要不然你要怎麼樣不是嗎來 再來洩密給外國跟洩密給中國中華人民共和國對台灣的國家安全造成極大的威脅一天到晚在恐嚇台灣要侵略台灣的就中華人民共和國非常可惡"},{"start":729.134,"end":755.056,"text":"洩密給中華人民共和國相較於要洩密給其他外國應該要加重處罰院長贊不贊成部長我問過他了啦他的答案在立法院裡面都有記錄但我沒有機會問你來 請院長請院長對不起 主席請你制止部長現在我在請教的是院長部長在旁邊一直插話這樣不好嗎請院長回覆"},{"start":756.925,"end":777.553,"text":"跟委員說明 泄密本身是一個行為泄密給任何一個人 我覺得他不應該有太大的差距尤其是如果泄密給一個敵境外的敵對勢力 他應該加重對嘛 泄密給境外敵對勢力應該要加重嘛我要的就是這個態度嘛因為我覺得很奇怪"},{"start":778.697,"end":801.076,"text":"我從很早以前,第一次當立委的時候,國家精密保護法我提案,泄密給中國就要加重處罰結果那時候跳出來反對的叫邱泰山修國安法的時候我又再主張一次,跳出來反對的是柯建民現在民進黨政府,說要從國安無法到國安實法"},{"start":802.219,"end":830.193,"text":"其中國家安全法很重要就國家安全法的部分目前沒有任何行政院的版本行政院會不會提版本行政院會不會提版本因為國家安全很重要嘛國家安全法現在有漏洞嘛要把它補起來嘛但我們現在在內政委員會審的時候我沒有看到行政院的版本行政院會不會提版本因為委員有提了相當多的版本朝野黨團的委員朝野各委員有提相當多的版本"},{"start":830.697,"end":854.906,"text":"如果這個版本綜合起來到最後我們認為跟行政院的原來的構思想法跟設計是差不多一樣的話我們可以就這個版本來做討論好 針對目前民進黨立委所提出來的版本有哪一個版本針對洩密給中國提高刑度相較其他國家更重的有哪一個版本有這樣的設計這個黨團還在討論當中現在黨團還在討論 沒有啊現在所提出來的版本已經境內政委會審查啦"},{"start":859.688,"end":884.994,"text":"審查就是一個討論的過程所以現在在審查裡面的版本有哪一個版本有針對中國有提高處罰的審查就是一個討論的過程是啊 所以我問你嘛有哪一個版本有針對泄密給中國相較於其他外國有更重刑度的有嗎沒有的話就可以再來檢討要如何來改善經濟所以我才問嘛你行政院要不要提版本出來事情就這麼簡單啊第三個事情"},{"start":886.29,"end":910.564,"text":"針對有關於棄保潛逃、妨礙司法公正在你的施政報告裡面也有寫我相信院長應該對自己的施政報告很清楚我每次問法務部棄保潛逃、妨礙司法公正那個時候所做的承諾到底什麼時候要提院板出來法務部永遠都是說他們已經提給行政院行政院什麼時候會提"},{"start":911.725,"end":923.696,"text":"這就是真的內容氣保檢討司法官說等等恐嚇證人相關的刑責對張我們現在我希望我們盡快如果盡快是什麼時候這個我曾經想過好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時41分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請卓院長。"],["主席：好，請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：卓院長好。司法及法制組的總質詢只有我一個人登記，在邁入今天的主題以前，先確認一件事情，有關昨天匯率的波動，賴總統親上火線說明，其中最值得大家關注的事情是，賴總統承諾有關於匯率絕對不會成為臺美接下來有關關稅談判的範圍，這件事情行政院會不會確實執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：完全依照這個原則，就先前談判的過程，我們也是在確保國家利益。"],["黃委員國昌：未來也不會把匯率納入整個談判的範圍，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：上一次的談判沒有牽涉到匯率。"],["黃委員國昌：未來的不會把它納入範圍，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不敢在這裡斷言，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：不敢在這邊斷言，所以昨天賴總統講的是空話嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說未來什麼時候會談到什麼事情，我們不敢在這裡斷言，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！可是賴總統講得很清楚，匯率不會成為臺美有關於經貿談判的範圍，現在這件事情卓院長改口了嗎？這是昨天賴總統講的啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：他是說上一次的談判沒有涉及……"],["黃委員國昌：所以未來不排除有可能會再納入談判範圍，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有對未來做任何的想像或判斷或預估。"],["黃委員國昌：現在國人關心的就是這件事情嘛！匯率會不會成為臺美接下來經貿談判的範圍？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，不管未來談判是不是會納入，我們現在針對匯率在這一週來的變化都高度的關注。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在不敢承諾就對了，把事情說清楚就好了啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是承諾不承諾的問題，這未來的事情……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在就問嘛！你說過去沒有，我說你可不可以承諾未來不會有，你現在沒有辦法承諾，事情就這麼簡單嘛！我有說錯嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是一刀兩面的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員也是談判的專家。"],["黃委員國昌：我相信今天卓院長的說明把賴總統的意思講得非常清楚了……"],["卓院長榮泰：你也是談判的專家……"],["黃委員國昌：賴總統有沒有做這樣的承諾，全體國人可以去評判，但有一件事情是非常清楚的……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的承諾是對匯率的變化會高度的掌握。"],["黃委員國昌：是，有一件事情……"],["卓院長榮泰：談判的過程會確保國家的利益。"],["黃委員國昌：主席，是不是可以請院長等我問完問題再回答？他這樣一直插話，恐怕不是很有禮貌吧！"],["主席：我們相互尊重，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。不過有一件事情賴總統應該是有清楚地承諾，2024年總統大選以前，賴總統承諾要針對有關於司法改革，特別是司改國是會議，接下來是不是有落實要建立一個常設性的司法改革委員會，這個委員會什麼時候會成立？"],["卓院長榮泰：司法改革是隨時在進行的……"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：對於司法改革的過程，我們也知道人民在關注……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個承諾有沒有要履行也不知道？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會依照……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有期限？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個部分不是單單行政院就可以處理的，我們必須要跟司法院高度的合作。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有辦法啊！因為我問不到賴總統，所以我只能請教你，這個是賴總統做的承諾，有白紙黑字及歷史紀錄，毫無疑問嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：屬於行政院的，我們在法務部系統會就內部趕快來做更多的精進，如果牽涉到司法院的，必須……"],["黃委員國昌：現在全體的國人沒有任何機會可以請教我們的賴清德總統，選前承諾全民的常設性司法改革委員會有沒有要履行、有沒有要兌現？現在大家不知道嘛！卓院長也沒有辦法幫賴總統回答嘛，是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：司法改革我們隨時都在改革、都在進行，但是要不要設個委員會……"],["黃委員國昌：是啊，現在我在問的是，政見要不要履行嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：並非行政院單方可以決定。"],["黃委員國昌：政見要不要履行，這是賴總統可以決定的，我有說錯嗎？這麼具體的事情，到現在還在講空話。"],["卓院長榮泰：賴總統選前所有的政見，我們都一一在履行當中。"],["黃委員國昌：這個有履行嗎？設在哪裡？清楚的跟國人講啊！大聲清楚的跟國人講，這個有履行嗎？設在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：這並非只有行政院的權責，我們還要尊重司法院。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我接下來問行政院權責可以做的事情，兩公約第四次的國家報告什麼時候可以提出來？兩公約第四次的國家報告絕對是行政院的權責，什麼時候可以提出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果我們原來有按定的時程，我們就按照原來的時程提出。"],["黃委員國昌：所以什麼時候要提出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們看原來的時程是什麼時候，再跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：你也不是很清楚喔？你怎麼自己的施政報告自己都不熟啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們如果有按照原來的時程，我們就提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：來，卓榮泰院長，這是你的施政報告。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就按照那個時程提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：2025年6月要提出來，會準時提出來嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們如果有按照時程再宣布的話，就會按照時程提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦，你敢寫在施政報告的內容，你自己要清楚嘛，要不然立委會沒有信心啊！現在都不知道這個施政報告是誰提出來的？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說我們如果有提出過時程……"],["黃委員國昌：我為什麼要特別問兩公約的國家人權報告？因為我們花了很多納稅人的錢去做國家報告、找國際專家來審查，但大家很困惑，花了這麼多錢做國家報告、找國際專家來審查，真的有在落實嗎？國際專家一而再、再而三質疑的事情，行政院好像是言者諄諄，聽者藐藐，沒有落實也沒有關係啊！我這樣講很抽象，我現在邁入具體的事情，2008年的時候，賴清德總統那個時候時任民主進步黨立法院黨團幹事長，他有沒有針對民進黨第一次執政時沒有修改集遊惡法向臺灣社會道歉？有沒有？你也不知道？沒有關係，我準備好了，賴清德代表民進黨黨團向社會大眾致歉，廢除集遊惡法承諾持續跳票。那個時候的賴清德講了多麼動人的一段話，他說我要代表民主進步黨黨團向臺灣社會大眾致歉，過去我們主張報備制，可是執政的時候沒有去回應在野的訴求，這是民進黨的不對，我們現在雖然成為在野黨，但是不能推諉卸責，現在的執政黨如果還是用以前的藉口當藉口，就會步入過去執政黨的後塵，我在此特別提出語重心長的呼籲。這個語重心長的呼籲不是我說的，是賴清德總統說的。現在關鍵的問題來了，針對集遊惡法這件事情，行政院有要推動修正嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前我們沒有談論到這個話題。"],["黃委員國昌：目前沒有談論到這個話題，好。第二個問題，目前的集會遊行惡法有沒有違反公政公約？我們花納稅人的錢做國家人權報告的審查，結論很清楚，我們目前的集遊惡法有沒有違反公政公約？我提醒卓院長，公政公約已經成為國內法，而且具有優位的效力。集遊惡法有沒有違反公政公約？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的集遊法依照我國的國情，目前的執行狀況是如此……"],["黃委員國昌：有沒有違反公政公約？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有進一步檢討的時候，我們會廣聽社會大眾共同的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：你們廣聽社會大眾的意見非常久了！2008年的時候跟臺灣社會道歉，2025年的現在翻臉不認人。現在我為什麼特別提出質詢？這還不是喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，這一點我不如委員，把過去別人講的話記得那麼清楚，對自己講的話也應該記得很清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係嘛！現在有關於政治承諾，有沒有履行是一回事，有沒有違反法律的規定是另外一回事，我說了啦！拿納稅人的錢做國家人權的審查報告，找國際的專家來審查，最後的結論是什麼？我帶卓院長複習一下，公政公約第二十一條的規定，第一次的國家人權報告提到，我們目前的集會遊行法違反公政公約第二十一條的規定，許可制應該改成報備制、禁制區要重新檢討、集遊法第二十九條的刑罰違反公政公約第二十一條的規定。這都不是我說的，這是我們的國家報告說的，我們國家報告早就說過這件事，我們花了納稅人的錢，從民進黨2017年開始做第一次的國際審查報告，2017年做國際審查報告的時候，國際專家就在問，說你們第一次的國家報告就承認違反公政公約，你們承認違反公政公約又沒有要修法，現在是在做什麼？找國際專家來審查有何意義？沒有意義啊！自己的報告說違反公政公約，國際專家問什麼時候要改？結果我們的政府卻雙手一攤，說現在沒有要推動，是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長回答。"],["黃委員國昌：是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：關於委員關心的這些問題，第四次的國家審查報告在下個月就會出來了，我想這部分應該……"],["黃委員國昌：第二次的國家審查報告、第三次的國家審查報告……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個會給委員一個答案嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：我剛剛所講的國際專家的質疑有說錯嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：針對國際專家的質疑，這部分我們會做一個檢討嘛……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，所以現在我的問題就來了嘛！法務部部長說得振振有詞，說你們會檢討，現在我的問題就來了，從2017年檢討到現在，我有說錯嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要廣納意見啊，總不能自己講了就算……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以從2017年廣納到現在喔？從2017年廣納到2025年喔？"],["鄭部長銘謙：剛剛我已經講了，第四次的國家審查報告在下個月就會出來了，那我們就期待嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：是不是要廣納到2032年？你們當初在回應國際審查專家的時候是說什麼？你們說這要廣納社會意見，違反公政公約，那我們就違反，要不然你要怎麼樣？是這種態度嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，至少我們承認當初說過的話，我們不會去否認我們自己過去說過的話。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊，然後呢？但是你沒有要做啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：已經在檢討啊！"],["黃委員國昌：從2017年檢討到現在？"],["卓院長榮泰：繼續檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：我告訴你國際審查專家講什麼，他們說到底是出於什麼原因還沒有修訂？為什麼沒有修？這是2021年第三次國際審查的時候所提出來的。第二次國家報告做國際審查的時候花了多少錢？部長知不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分……"],["黃委員國昌：花了多少錢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒有資料。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，我告訴你，花了614萬。第三次找國際專家來花了多少錢你知不知道？你也沒有資料，沒關係，我都幫你準備好了，花了783萬。每一次花納稅人的錢幾百萬，花了以後找國際審查專家來大拜拜，拜拜完了出了報告，報告告訴你該修的卻沒有修。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不會同意委員所講的什麼大拜拜啦，國際委員的意見我們會納入施政的參考……"],["黃委員國昌：如果不是大拜拜的話，國際審查專家問的問題，你們當初在回應的時候，是像你今天在這邊這樣子的態度嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員你不能這樣講，這樣講不公平，這樣是完全否定我們的努力、否定我們對國際兩公約的落實……"],["黃委員國昌：是不是嘛？你當初在回應國際審查專家的時候……針對你今天在這邊回應紀錄的話，要不要在第四次國際審查的時候，就把你今天的話老老實實的告訴國際審查專家：我民進黨政府就是這個態度，就是沒有要修嘛，要不然你要怎麼樣？不是嗎？","再來是洩密給外國跟洩密給中國，中華人民共和國對臺灣的國家安全造成極大的威脅，一天到晚在恐嚇臺灣、要侵略臺灣的就是中華人民共和國，非常可惡啊！洩密給中華人民共和國相較於洩密給其他外國，應該要加重處罰，院長贊不贊成？部長我問過他了，他的答案在立法院裡面都有紀錄，但我沒有機會問你，請院長……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要廣納意見，這本來在……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起！主席，請你制止部長，現在我在請教的是院長，部長在旁邊一直插話，這樣不好吧！"],["主席：請院長回復。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員說明，洩密本身是一個行為，洩密給任何一個人，我覺得不應該有太大的差距，尤其是……"],["黃委員國昌：不應該有太大的差距？沒有關係，來……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果洩密給一個境外的敵對勢力，他應該加重。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，洩密給境外敵對勢力應該要加重嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我要的就是這個態度嘛！我覺得很奇怪，從很早以前我第一次當立委的時候，針對國家機密保護法我提案洩密給中國就要加重處罰，結果那時候跳出來反對的叫邱太三；修國安法的時候，我又再主張一次，跳出來反對的是柯建銘。現在民進黨政府說要從國安五法到國安十法，其中國家安全法很重要，就國家安全法的部分，目前沒有任何行政院的版本，行政院會不會提版本？因為國家安全很重要，國家安全法現在有漏洞，要把它補起來，但我們現在在內政委員會審的時候，我沒有看到行政院的版本，行政院會不會提版本？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為委員有提了相當多的版本，朝野各黨團的委員有提了相當多的版本，如果把所有版本綜合起來，到最後我們認為跟行政院原來的構思、想法、設計是差不多、一樣的話，我們可以就這個版本來討論。"],["黃委員國昌：目前民進黨立委所提出來的版本，有哪一個版本針對洩密給中國提高刑度，相較其他國家更重的？有哪一個版本有這樣的設計？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個部分黨團還在討論當中，朝野還在討論當中。"],["黃委員國昌：現在黨團還在討論？沒有啊！現在所提出來的版本已經進內政委員會審查了。"],["卓院長榮泰：審查就是一個討論的過程。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以現在在審查的版本裡面，有哪一個版本有針對中國提高處罰？"],["卓院長榮泰：審查就是一個討論的過程。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我問你有哪一個版本針對洩密給中國相較於其他外國有更重刑度的？有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有的話就可以再來檢討要如何來改善、精進。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我才問，行政院要不要提版本出來？事情就這麼簡單。","第三個事情，關於棄保潛逃、妨害司法公正，在你的施政報告裡面也有寫，我相信院長應該對自己的施政報告很清楚。我每次問法務部有關棄保潛逃、妨害司法公正，那個時候所做的承諾到底什麼時候要提院版出來？法務部永遠都是說他們已經提給行政院。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院什麼時候會提？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是針對內容，包括棄保潛逃、司法關說、恐嚇證人等等相關的刑責罪章，我們現在……"],["黃委員國昌：院長，什麼時候會提？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望我們儘快，如果……"],["黃委員國昌：儘快是什麼時候？"],["卓院長榮泰：我曾經想過如果這個會期結束之前，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：繼續拖嘛！2017年就做了承諾，拖到2025年，到現在還在講空話。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會儘速安排，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，司法及法制組之質詢已詢答完畢，下午2點15分處理臨時提案，下午2點30分繼續開會，進行社會福利及衛生環境組之質詢。現在休息。","休息（11時57分）","繼續開會（14時15分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1144201_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}