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這個不是發現啊媒體都登了啊對不對 媒體都登了那麼大啦也不是發現啊 對不對我為什麼那一部分 那一部分現在媒體登的看到的那一部分現在都還沒有還沒有涉入到我們的選務機關我們的選舉的業務裡面都還沒有欸 主委 這樣子講我就有點不認同"},{"start":423.645,"end":449.225,"text":"從一開始就是造假然後呢造假的人本身又是民政處長然後他又兼選委會總幹事這是違法的部分對啊那違法的部分這個都已經很明確了他到時候他又是在審查的一個機關如果是指特定的縣市的話他已經不是我們的總幹事了"},{"start":450.246,"end":461.888,"text":"我知道現在已經不是了啦不是現在在前一個案子就已經不是對他現在已經不是但我為什麼要特別提出這一個其他個縣市你保證都沒有嗎"},{"start":463.601,"end":482.534,"text":"我信任啦 我也相信所有的公務人員不管他兼任 他專職都應該能夠把持行政中立這個不變的原則我覺得啦 主委 我一開始就跟您說中選會是選政機關 不是選務機關"},{"start":487.057,"end":513.402,"text":"但選務機關幾乎都在各縣市直接執行但你也是可以直接監督的你不能讓一些事情一直發生這樣子會造成什麼後果你以後辦選舉人家會質疑所有的公信力一件一件這樣下來如果中選會也都沒有任何的作為處理你會造人民會對未來你的選舉"},{"start":515.067,"end":536.493,"text":"會不會有充分信任這一點一定要跟委員報告現在所有牽涉到違法的部分事實根據都是我們選務機關負責盡職所查出來的所抓出來的所以我們有盡到責任我不是說你沒有盡到責任我不是說你沒有盡到責任"},{"start":540.854,"end":551.529,"text":"所以我們還是會把關嘛你除了把關之外我剛特別想到你們辦理選務什麼講座這些你除了三聲五令之外其實你對他也沒有直接的"},{"start":552.746,"end":574.296,"text":"一個指揮的權限或什麼但該有的懲處該有的什麼其實也應該要做啊中選會不會無為啦我們有我們的作為我知道所以主委我只是提醒你這樣你不要到時候我們的選舉或什麼會變成民眾的不信任我覺得是會這樣因為選舉最怕的就是舞弊從以前的作票"},{"start":581.212,"end":607.428,"text":"灌票這選舉最擔心的就是舞弊那這次的很多的事情如果你要給他從法律上來看造假什麼的那就是舞弊了所以我覺得很多的事情要讓大家知道說對或不對我只是提醒你不要到後來大家對選委會各地的選舉產生不信任這我是"},{"start":608.479,"end":611.181,"text":"比較擔心的是未來台灣幾十年的這個選舉的運作我擔心的點是這裡啦"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":323,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時1分）請主委。"],["主席：李主委，有請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，選委會當然是一個中立的機關，也是辦選政的重要機關，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：選委會雖然有主委，但主委可以決定所有的事情嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們是一個委員制的機關。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！你們是要開委員會去作所有事情的決議，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這些委員其實是社會賢達，各黨各派也都有人在裡面嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：是學有專精，而且具有社會公信力。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！所以很多的事情不是主委說的算吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：那當然！"],["張委員宏陸：這要尊重整個委員會的制度？"],["李主任委員進勇：是！"],["張委員宏陸：所以不是什麼事情主委就可以講的，因為裡面在開會，社會賢達、學有專精的每個人都可以提出意見，然後才作出最後的決定？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：所以有時候要主委說什麼，但你跟內政部長等人是不一樣的，是不是？立場是不一樣的吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：沒錯啦！所以很多事情並不是在這邊說主委說怎樣，因為最主要還是委員會的制度。不過，我要先問幾個問題，我今天看了你們的業務報告，你們還有參與國際選舉組織活動？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道臺灣的選委會其實在國際選舉組織裡面算是創始會員之一？"],["李主任委員進勇：是，我們有兩個組織都是創始會員國。"],["張委員宏陸：對，但預算被刪成這樣，你們還能去嗎？你還有錢去嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：比較拮据一點，但我們還是排除萬難，因為我們的會籍還是會被挑戰，所以我們是用積極參與的態度確保跟其他各會員國之間的關係，以確保、維護我們會員的權利。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道啊！我們是創始會員國之一，如果你常常一天到晚都不去，到時候被除籍怎麼辦？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我才會問，你們的預算被刪成這樣，現在可以去嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：比較拮据一點，但是今年我們還是會排除萬難讓兩批都去參加。"],["張委員宏陸：還是有參加？"],["李主任委員進勇：還好今年是在菲律賓，比較省。"],["張委員宏陸：如果是在歐洲就沒辦法了吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：那就比較困難了。"],["張委員宏陸：如果是辦在歐盟就無法參加了嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：是，今年的兩個會都在菲律賓。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我知道。還有，你們有一個辦理選務幹部人員講習。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我想先請問一下，所有縣市的民政局長或民政處長是不是都是選委會的總幹事？"],["李主任委員進勇：總幹事照規定就是民政局處的首長或者是副首長、副主管。"],["張委員宏陸：法律規定民政局長大部分都要兼選委會總幹事，真正辦理選舉的是民政局長，因為總幹事要去辦理選舉，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：像是縣市首長掛名主任委員或是他要讓誰掛，其實他也沒有直接參與，當然他要直接參與也是可以，但地方也是委員制，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我看報紙報導，我就不指名縣市了，有縣市的局長兼總幹事又做什麼的，我們先不講法律問題，結果就有一些行政不中立的情況出現了，主委，你有沒有注意到？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們基本上都予以尊重跟信任，因為選務的辦理需要地方政府大力的協助才能夠成功，所以我們對於兼任主任委員的三長，對於兼任總幹事的民政首長都予以充分地尊重。當然，我們也知道，因為他的專業畢竟不是在選務方面，所以有關選務法令、有關選舉實務的運作，他們也許並不是非常熟悉，所以我們在地方上專職的副總幹事就必須負起這個責任，隨時提供正確的資訊給主任委員、給總幹事，讓他們能夠在合法的情況之下帶動選務。"],["張委員宏陸：我就講得比較白一點，如果民政局長用戶役政系統去查資料，這樣有沒有違法？結果又是選委會去審查這些資料？這樣在行政上來講，你認為選委會的中立會不會因此被質疑？"],["李主任委員進勇：地方選委會依法必須受中央選舉委員會的指揮跟監督！雖然大部分的選務是在地方辦理，但是中選會也不是坐在那裡閒閒的，其實我們都在盯著，也都會聯絡各地的選委會，都有專屬的窗口，每天瞭解當地選務進行的狀況。如果發現有些狀況可能有違反法令之虞，我們都會加強溝通。"],["張委員宏陸：這個不是發現，媒體都登了，對不對？媒體都登到那麼大了，也不是發現，對不對？為什麼……"],["李主任委員進勇：媒體登的、看到的那個部分，現在都還沒有涉入我們選務機關及選舉業務。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，這樣講我就有一點不認同了！從一開始就是造假，然後造假的人本身是民政處長又兼選委會總幹事……"],["李主任委員進勇：這是違法的部分。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！違法的部分都已經很明確了，到時候它又是審查的機關，這個……"],["李主任委員進勇：委員，如果是指特定縣市的話，他已經不是我們的總幹事了。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，他現在已經不是了啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：不是現在，在前一個案子就已經不是了。"],["張委員宏陸：對，他現在已經不是了。但我為什麼要特別提出這一個？其他各縣市你保證都沒有嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我信任，也相信所有的公務人員不管他是兼任還是專職，都應該能夠把持行政中立這個不變的原則。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，我一開始就跟你說，中選會是選政機關，不是選務機關，但是選務機關幾乎都在各縣市直接執行，不過你也是可以直接監督的。所以你不能讓一些事情一直發生，否則會造成什麼後果？你以後辦選舉，人家會質疑所有的公信力耶！一件一件這樣下來，如果中選會也都沒有任何的作為、處理，人民對未來的選舉會不會有充分的信任？這一點一定要很注意。"],["李主任委員進勇：跟委員報告，現在所有牽涉到違法的部分，事實根據都是我們選務機關負責盡職所查出來的、所抓出來的，所以我們有盡到責任，我們並不是沒有盡到責任。"],["張委員宏陸：我不是說你們沒有盡到責任。主席，再給我30秒。我不是說你沒有盡到責任……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們還是會把關。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，除了把關之外，我剛剛特別強調的，你們辦理選務、講座這些，除了三令五申之外，其實你對他也沒有直接的指揮權限或什麼，但該有的懲處、該有的什麼其實也應該要做啊。"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會不會無為，我們有我們的作為。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，所以我只是提醒你，不要到時候我們的選舉或什麼會變成民眾不信任，我覺得會這樣。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：因為選舉最怕的就是舞弊，不管是以前的作票、灌票，選舉最擔心的就是舞弊。這次很多事情如果要從法律上來看造假、什麼的，那就是舞弊。所以我覺得很多事情要讓大家知道對或不對，我只是提醒你，不要到後來大家對選委會、各地的選舉產生不信任，我比較擔心的是未來臺灣幾十年選舉的運作，我擔心的點是這裡。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員、也是我們選務的前輩的提點，謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委。","下一位請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","高金素梅","翁曉玲","丁學忠"],"page_start":113,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}