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這個央行總裁請"},{"start":19.944,"end":33.434,"text":"總裁早 總裁新台幣開啟了時速列車模式瘋狂升值5月6日以30.280元作收甚至出現到新台幣兌換28元的狀況連網營都進不去"},{"start":38.337,"end":63.652,"text":"台灣是出口導向的國家這種過度的升值對我們一點好處都沒有過去央行的態度我們都知道就是主升不主貶但這一次央行卻一反常態已經連續升值好幾天就算央行出手調節升值的狀態也沒有什麼變化沒有什麼趨緩那是不是因為跟剛剛這個談判關稅談判有關"},{"start":65.313,"end":79.844,"text":"那你預計這一波的升值會多少我再次再跟委員報告我剛剛有一個澄清有一個聲明也許委員沒有聽到基本上是"},{"start":81.505,"end":98.611,"text":"關稅的談判沒有涉及到會議的問題這個我還是要澄清那第二個就是說我也是要建議就是說在我們的新聞稿裡面就是說市場的評論所以我覺得委員的一個"},{"start":100.1,"end":116.866,"text":"提問 垂詢我覺得這個是對我們全體都好為了全國的出口商 進口商都好但是涉及到這個匯率的問題我是不是也可以建議就是說我們委員就是說"},{"start":118.228,"end":139.98,"text":"有些時候因為委員沒有在市場上那我們是每天在盯在市場所以我們知道市場的他的敏感度總裁南韓的央行總裁李昌雍他說亞洲各國的貨幣走勢部分原因是因為美國政府施壓那我們央行總裁你跟他不同調"},{"start":141.121,"end":167.123,"text":"那也是剛剛這個說法嗎我跟委員報告就是說剛剛委員也有另外委員也有講到李昌雍就是他的Governor這個事實上Governor這個事實上有媒體也是說好像是把他翻譯錯了跟他的原意不是這樣子的我們剛剛對你談判首輪剛剛結束那央行就放手讓新台幣升值"},{"start":167.603,"end":188.977,"text":"你也不要就是說是放手啦事實上專業也是事實在調整你們沒有共識也沒有協議然後沒有施壓現在確實是難以相信啦所以我就是還是在我所謂說我還是要再澄清我們5月1號5月2號5月2號所以也就是說這兩天是因為市場的預期太強烈了這個你昨天說過了"},{"start":194.341,"end":218.931,"text":"台幣、新台幣不是全球大量流通的貨幣啦最大的莊家就是你就是我們中央銀行那銀行沒有放行對不對要怎麼樣在短時間之內我跟委員報告啦事實上你都說中央銀行是最大的莊家我跟委員報告事實上市場的力量是很大的"},{"start":219.933,"end":237.771,"text":"現在市場厲害現在這個跟二三十年以前的事情就完全都不一樣了以前就是中央銀行莊家我們來講啦但是現在就不是了回到這個現況啦過度升值對我國是沒有什麼好處啦我們出口導向嘛對不對那也會因為"},{"start":238.712,"end":268.036,"text":"把這個進口成本降低然後打壓到國內的產業那這樣子的情況企業面臨獲利下降就會降低成本我跟委員報告啦會議都是聲聲扁扁啦對啦沒有錯我說這樣大幅的上升嘛大幅的分子那未來包括無薪假、裁員、失業率這些問題一定會接連發生嘛現在就發生了嘛委員現在所說的大部分都是負面的啦但是你也沒有想到就是正面的是什麼"},{"start":270.096,"end":282.539,"text":"如果說委員到國外去旅遊,你的購買力就提高了我們有多少時間可以常常去旅遊?你是工作的時間比較多還是旅遊的時間比較多?你是生產的時間多還是消費的時間多?"},{"start":292.76,"end":307.635,"text":"學者也提到說這波升值會重演1985年匯率作變造成製造業倒閉的產況近期台幣升值過快對這些企業都造成嚴重衝擊如果持續下去"},{"start":308.616,"end":317.245,"text":"會引發這些內需萎縮還有景氣翻轉的風險那央行到底現在出手了嗎我要跟委員報告事實上我們的企業他的人性非常強"},{"start":324.997,"end":329.24,"text":"非常強 從COVID-19之後到2024年我們的經濟成長力都比其他國家做好台灣的企業很強 所以就讓他們自己去面對我還是在強調 匯率是有上來一點"},{"start":349.11,"end":363.618,"text":"董事長 總裁 你在這個崗位對不對 該出手就出手我們專案銀行會盡我們的執著來維持市場的秩序所以說 該出手就出手對 會那個委員 你的這個非常好穩定金融 這就是我們的責任嘛 是不是這樣是是是 沒有錯沒有錯對啦 對啦 好啦 那個總裁請回好不好好 謝謝好 那個主席有請那個國發會高副主委"},{"start":390.296,"end":406.167,"text":"我們雖然還沒有成立主權基金但是政府基金也有類似的功能那勞保、勞退、國民年金還有退伏基金沒有主權基金之名但有主權基金之實那國發基金也有類似的功能"},{"start":408.79,"end":429.551,"text":"國發會在2016年間就是已經提出新來幣1000億設立國發基金那政府針對想要從事轉型結構改造併購等可誘發新投資行為的企業組織那所以你認為說副主委你認為說國發基金是否有可能轉型為主權基金簡單的說明好不好好"},{"start":430.117,"end":451.142,"text":"我想國發基金要轉型為主權基金因為國發基金是按照產創條例設立的那產創條例第29條事實上就是我們要從事產業的創新價值這一點基本上是符合所謂的主權基金裡面的所謂策略性投資為目的的可是因為它不以盈利為目的所以不符合所謂的財務型的主權基金"},{"start":452.082,"end":478.046,"text":"那第二個呢就是說我們國發基金的資金來源是國庫撥款跟作業盈餘的循環運用那這一塊呢就會受限在主權基金就如果主權基金金額要很大的話那這一塊如果由國庫撥款這一塊可能就會盈餘這個就不夠所以不同的國家主權基金設立的時候他有不同的法源依據啊是是那所以說像我們就是像我們的這個我們剛剛提到了"},{"start":483.124,"end":495.716,"text":"這些也都要通過預算法、中央營養法或者是公司法、專法這些來設立所以一些學者的看法就是說多數民主化程度比較高的國家會設立專法來規範主權機制的管理"},{"start":499.72,"end":521.673,"text":"法律的明確規定讓各機關之間的合作跟分工如果要設立主權基金也可以選擇用外匯存底或者是現有的政府基金來進行轉型因為有不同的法源依據跟主管部門所以如果沒有明確的法律依據實在是難以實現就像妳剛剛提到的有些是從"},{"start":524.356,"end":536.089,"text":"這個稅收盈餘去做一個提撥那要設立主權基金應該要制定專門的法律來規範所以這點你也同意嗎是我同意委員的意見好那如果是這樣子的話我們"},{"start":538.965,"end":551.951,"text":"主權基金的本質是盈利就是有不同的目的有的基金是所謂財務型的有些是策略型的投資重點就是獲利那它的運作也需要具備一個相當高的獨立性所以說如果主權基金"},{"start":560.555,"end":580.062,"text":"有時候如果受到政治因素的干擾或者是外交因素那這樣子的話有外交利益或者是政治目的的這樣子來影響他會讓這個主權基金變成說沒有辦法去獨立兼具他的獨立兼具他的市場的一個投資的目的跟標的"},{"start":580.842,"end":605.179,"text":"所以他必須要有完善的治理跟建議的價格尤其我國啦我國在國際舞台上處境就非常特殊不管是在外交上面面臨的一些挑戰或者是在政治上的這些會受到一些干涉外交的干涉都有那選擇因為這樣子外交的干涉所以我們去選擇某些國家或者是企業來做投資對象"},{"start":606.96,"end":635.269,"text":"所以這些考量就會跟純粹的一個財務利益互相衝突跟其他國家新加坡的這些這些一個主權基金就不一樣了我想我們可以試我們國內我們自己的情況我們來設定我們設立的部分跟操作的模式如果去實踐如果去實踐找到一個平衡點能夠保持主權基金的專業性跟長期發展這最重要好不好是好謝謝副主委謝謝好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":189,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（9時35分）主席、各位列席官員大家早。主席，有請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：楊總裁，請。"],["楊總裁金龍：顏委員早。"],["顏委員寬恒：總裁早。總裁，新臺幣開啟了失速列車模式，瘋狂的升值，5月6號以30.280元作收，甚至出現新臺幣兌美元28元的狀況，連網銀都進不去。臺灣是出口導向的國家，這種過度的升值對我們一點好處都沒有，我們都知道過去央行的態度是阻升不阻貶，但這一次央行卻一反常態，已經連續升值好幾天，就算央行出手調節，升值狀態也沒有什麼變化、沒有什麼趨緩，是不是跟關稅談判有關？你預計這一波的升值會到多少？請總裁說明。"],["楊總裁金龍：我再次跟委員報告，我剛剛有一個澄清聲明，也許委員沒有聽到，基本上關稅談判沒有涉及到匯率的問題，這個我還是要澄清；第二個，我也要建議在我們新聞稿裡面對於的市場評論……我覺得委員的垂詢是對我們全體都好，也都是為了全國的出口商、進口商好，但是涉及到匯率的問題，我是不是也可以建議委員，有些時候……因為委員沒有在市場上，那我們是每天在盯在市場，所以我們知道市場的敏感度……"],["顏委員寬恒：好，總裁。南韓的央行總裁李昌鏞說，亞洲各國的貨幣走勢有部分是因為美國政府施壓，楊總裁你跟他不同調，也是這個說法嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，剛剛也有委員講到李昌鏞governor，事實上有媒體說好像是翻譯錯了，他的原意不是這樣子的。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，沒關係。總裁，我們首輪對美談判剛剛結束，央行就放手讓新臺幣升值……"],["楊總裁金龍：也不要說是放手，事實上……"],["顏委員寬恒：沒有共識，你們沒有共識、沒有協議，然後也沒有施壓。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：現在確實是難以相信。"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，所以我還是要再澄清，我們在5月1號、5月2號這兩天是因為市場的預期太強烈。"],["顏委員寬恒：總裁，這個你昨天說過了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：新臺幣不是全球大量流通的貨幣，最大的莊家就是我們的中央銀行，央行沒有放行的話，要怎麼樣在短時間之內升值10%？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，你說中央銀行是最大的莊家，對於這個我要跟委員報告，事實上市場的力量是很大的，現在的市場力量跟20、30年以前的事情完全不一樣，以前中央銀行是莊家，但現在不是了！"],["顏委員寬恒：回到現況，過度升值對我國沒有什麼好處，我們是出口導向嘛，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：也會因為進口成本降低打壓到國內的產業，這樣的情況之下，企業面臨獲利下降就會降低成本……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，匯率都是升升貶貶的……"],["顏委員寬恒：對啦，沒有錯，我是說這樣大幅的升值，未來包括無薪假、裁員、失業率這些問題一定會接連發生，現在就發生了嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：委員現在所說的大部分都是負面的，但是你沒有想到……"],["顏委員寬恒：正面的是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果委員到國外去旅遊，是不是你的purchasing power（購買力）就提高了？"],["顏委員寬恒：我們有多少時間可以常常去旅遊？對我們來說……"],["楊總裁金龍：委員是比較沒有常常旅遊，但是有很多人去旅遊啊！"],["顏委員寬恒：你是工作的時間比較多，還是旅遊的時間比較多？你是生產的時間多，還是消費的時間多？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我跟委員報告……"],["顏委員寬恒：我知道，沒關係啦！學者也提到這波升值會重演1985年匯率驟變造成製造業倒閉的慘況，近期臺幣升值過快，對這些產業、企業都造成嚴重衝擊，如果持續下去會引發內需萎縮還有景氣翻轉的風險，央行現在到底出手了嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我要跟委員報告，事實上我們企業的韌性非常強，從COVID-19之後到2024年，我們的經濟成長率都比其他鄰近國家好……"],["顏委員寬恒：我們臺灣的企業很強，所以就讓他們自己去面對嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，我還是強調，匯率是有升有貶……"],["顏委員寬恒：總裁你在這個崗位，該出手就出手……"],["楊總裁金龍：中央銀行會盡我們的職責來維持市場秩序。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，所以我說該出手就出手。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、會，委員的建議非常好。"],["顏委員寬恒：穩定匯率、穩定金融，這個就是你們的責任，是不是這樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是，沒有錯。"],["顏委員寬恒：對啦，總裁請回，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：主席，有請國發會高副主委。"],["主席：高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：副主委好。我們雖然還沒有成立主權基金，但是政府基金也有類似的功能，勞保、勞退、國民年金還有退撫基金雖沒有主權基金之名，但有主權基金之實，國發基金也有類似的功能。國發會在2016年間已經提出新臺幣1,000億設立國發基金，政府針對想要從事轉型、結構改造、併購等可誘發新投資行為的企業注資，所以副主委你認為國發基金是否有可能轉型為主權基金？簡單的說明，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，我想國發基金要轉型為主權基金，因為國發基金是按照產創條例設立的，根據產創條例第二十九條，事實上就是我們要從事產業的創新加值，這一點基本上是符合主權基金裡面所謂的策略性投資目的，可是因為它不以盈利為目的，所以不符合財務型的主權基金……"],["顏委員寬恒：是，沒有錯。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：第二個，我們國發基金的資金來源是國庫撥款跟作業盈餘的循環運用，這一塊就會受限在主權基金，如果主權基金金額很大的話，這一塊如果由國庫撥款，可能盈餘就會不夠。"],["顏委員寬恒：是，所以不同國家在主權基金設立的時候有不同的法源依據。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：像我們剛剛提到的，這些也都要透過預算法、中央銀行法或者是公司法，透過專法來設立對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以有一些學者的看法是，多數民主化程度比較高的國家會設立專法來規範主權基金的管理。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：讓法律明確規定，也讓各機關之間可以進行合作跟分工，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：如果要設立主權基金也可以選擇用外匯存底，或者是現有的政府基金來進行轉型，因為有不同的法源依據跟主管部門，所以如果沒有明確的法律依據，實在是難以實現。就像你剛剛提到的，有些是從稅收盈餘去做提撥，要設立主權基金，應該要制定專門的法律來規範，這你也同意，對不對？副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，我同意委員的意見。"],["顏委員寬恒：如果是這樣子的話，我們主權基金的本質是盈利，你剛剛提到的獲利……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：有不同的目的，有的主權基金是財務型的，有些是策略型的投資，有些是mix……"],["顏委員寬恒：就是獲利嘛，重點就是獲利……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：它的運作也需要具備相當高的獨立性，如果主權基金受到政治因素或者是外交因素的干擾，這樣子的話，有外交利益或者是政治目的的影響，會讓這個主權基金變成沒有辦法兼具它的獨立、市場的投資目的與標的。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：所以必須要有完善的治理跟監理的架構。"],["顏委員寬恒：尤其我國在國際舞臺上處境非常特殊，不管是外交上所面臨的挑戰，或政治上所受到的外交干涉都有。也因為外交干涉，以致我們選擇某些國家或企業作為投資對象，而這些考量會跟純粹的財務利益互相衝突，也與其他國家，如新加坡主權基金不一樣。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們可以視國內自己的情況來設定操作模式。"],["顏委員寬恒：因此，如何實踐並找到平衡點，以保持主權基金的專業性跟長期發展才是最重要的，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：謝謝副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：謝謝委員。"],["主席（顏委員寬恒代）：請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}