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我就請教剛才兩位長官都有提到好像特別是國發基金"},{"start":31.975,"end":53.813,"text":"國會你也是主張跟楊總裁講的一樣還有我們請財政部的次長一起來就是主權基金應該是政府出錢的所以國發基金其實很適合來成立主權基金這個總裁同意嗎"},{"start":56.014,"end":62.817,"text":"主權基金的規模通常都會比較大所以我們用國庫撥款跟作業營運來循環運用這一點不夠第二個就是主權基金很重要就是專業的管理經濟"},{"start":76.721,"end":106.064,"text":"所以我們的人員聘用跟薪資我們目前國發基金是要符合公務人員的任用法所以這個可能也會受限財政部啊如果這個成立因為大家現在好像一直有這個聲音說成立國家主權基金了財政部一間把它挑起來怎麼樣財政部急啊這個可能還要再討論啦基本上就是有關這個裁員的這一部分當然央行是有一些建議比如說"},{"start":107.092,"end":117.697,"text":"有財政部發債 或者是財政部出資成立 或者是財政部委託來經營等等就發行公債來講 現在目前我們的公債法規定只有兩種一種是假種公債 只是用來貼補財政收支差短"},{"start":130.603,"end":145.87,"text":"那另外一種公債是作為市場性的財源那如果是說要在成立主權基金要透過發債的方式的話那一定要透過專案的立法要充分的討論而且要取得各界的共識"},{"start":147.046,"end":172.583,"text":"對 我就問你了因為總裁一直反對這個因為現在很多人在打他主意要撥外匯存底來成立這個主權基金他強調 今天報告也強調他反對無償使用外匯存底來成立主權基金要的話就產生不你要去發債就發債你要發債你去發債政府的錢成立主權基金"},{"start":173.303,"end":192.919,"text":"國會這個金額 一個國會基金金額太少而且因為我們還講到城市部署發債也發太少了嘛這個要是多發一點也不是壞事 台灣有錢啊不是 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但是委員的口才非常好啊所以你看看你幾句話就把我想要說的就想要說出來了所以我非常謝謝你"},{"start":298.424,"end":302.325,"text":"你不要說你口才不好,你說我表達方式大家不一定滿意因為他說我結結巴巴的還有一個就說我是史詩級的結結巴巴他聽了非常害怕"},{"start":317.093,"end":326.14,"text":"所以我就說我必須要澄清這個場合來澄清啊你會不會我覺得我讓他心生害怕那這好像就是說那市場的人士一聽到我的講話大家都很害怕反而那個預期心理會更強烈沒有啊你看後面這邊反而就是整個消化了啊"},{"start":346.096,"end":369.357,"text":"你聽了那些的不管哪一個台啦其實這個部分藍綠啦你聽了很生氣是不是我也不是說很生氣因為我總覺得所以我還在說說我還必須要做一個澄清就是我們的新聞那我是要請問你你講話還是有用的啦你講話當然"},{"start":371.939,"end":384.305,"text":"講話完畢你看三十塊就穩下來也不是你講話有用啦是開心你就下手下去了啊就有調節了啊請問有沒有調節沒有調節我跟委員報告就是說疫情心理很強的時候調節是比較是必要的啊對調節是必要的但是比較沒有用但是啊你看看說讓那個價格下來了以後呢你看看我們的調節就變得非常的順利"},{"start":401.172,"end":409.339,"text":"那我問你 你是不是外界可以解讀說因為你已經出手了而且你發這麼大的脾氣大概30塊錢可以暫時穩定一段時間可以這樣講嗎"},{"start":414.65,"end":418.851,"text":"所以30塊錢應該可以穩定一段時間我沒有發那麼大的脾氣啦我只是說跟市場一個訊息就是說到此為止"},{"start":439.318,"end":445.824,"text":"我跟妳講一個東西啊我都查了資料啦我們現在外匯存底多少錢我們5800億啊5800億一天的外匯交易量多少"},{"start":459.938,"end":485.203,"text":"我們一天的外交運量 平常就是說 如果說是大概是20億到30億最多是10億啦 大概25億啦25億 要應付這個Taste of Cake啊Taste of Cake 你現在講 突運到底有沒有突運我跟委員報告就是說 我在那個5月5號的記者會 我是講就是說"},{"start":487.877,"end":510.298,"text":"那個草匯的進來 但是他parking在那邊那什麼意思所以我就說有一點類似那個什麼 類似禿鷹的那樣我警惕他 我警告他那這樣的話事實上就像委員所說的一樣的我們講了有效"},{"start":511.578,"end":528.57,"text":"他就不會堅持晃動所以最近你看看他買鈔都買了好幾百億啊就他進來就說要買股票 他就乖乖的買股票不能夠趴在那裡等著台幣升值他就說他的目的跟他所不一樣 那這不好"},{"start":534.534,"end":556.272,"text":"這個你都盯得住吧 都盯得住吧可以啊 我們可以盯得住所以總裁啊 難怪人家這樣子質疑嘛你走不走嘛 五千多 五千八百多億VS一天二三十億 對不對他如果搞怪 你馬上開始阻殺就好了"},{"start":557.273,"end":582.603,"text":"以前1997年的亞洲金融風暴彭總裁就這樣子啊這樣子接近來給我們阻殺跟他對殺就把他殺掉就好啦是啦我還是謝謝委員的鼓勵我也還是謝謝委員的建議我話還沒講完但是我要強調就是所以可見難怪外界會質疑你"},{"start":584.484,"end":590.772,"text":"過去你只要那個外匯市場只要台幣1%你大概就會去拋棄了結果這次這樣這次3%4%你動都不動難怪人家說這就是"},{"start":599.181,"end":603.763,"text":"絕對沒有美國的壓力所以說是因為美國壓力所以外資市場才會做這樣的波動 也不是是因為評論人都說美國施壓 美國一定會怎麼樣怎麼樣結果導致我們出口商還有外資都有一種"},{"start":623.032,"end":648.824,"text":"特別是我們的出口商所以我們的第六點我們就在講啊我們的第六點就要講到就是說如果說他這樣的疫情心理大家都拋的話到最後傷到的是誰他就傷到他自己啊美國即便沒有施壓啦但最少你心裡有一個壓力你自己有一個壓力因為六月份他們美國要宣布匯率操縱口"},{"start":650.989,"end":656.951,"text":"6月份要宣布這個按照道理按照正常的應該是在4月底之前不過到目前為止他還沒有他還沒有所以現在不曉得所以你講到這裡的時候就是說我今天看到媒體媒體就是說到6月底6月的時候我們會被宣布為嚴重的"},{"start":679.897,"end":701.247,"text":"匯率操縱國或是後來他標題說嚴重的匯率觀察名單沒有所謂的嚴重不嚴重觀察名單就觀察名單匯率操縱就匯率操縱沒有所謂嚴重的就好像特別對我們台灣所設立的沒有這回事那我覺得因為時間到了我就是問你確定一下"},{"start":703.359,"end":720.868,"text":"就是台灣只是被列為觀察名單絕對不會被列為操縱國對不對我們應該這麼說啦就是說按照以前的標準是那三項我們到目前呢我們就只有達到那"},{"start":722.089,"end":732.525,"text":"就經常這樣佔GDP的比重是3%那還有就是說對美國出超過150至於就是匯率的這個部分沒有他又說我們要買貨2%佔GDP的比重沒有"},{"start":737.49,"end":765.601,"text":"我只能跟最後一句話就是你在那個三趴那個洞一下子一天漲一塊錢你至少沒有出手主要就是你會擔心被列為匯率最重我都一直都一個原則美國有他的一個法定職責譬如說FED他有法定的職責台灣中英行也有法定職責"},{"start":766.761,"end":780.316,"text":"大家就不懂了啊那幾天你怎麼動都不動沒有說不動就不動沒有沒有我們還要適度調節只是說那時候的回完那時候的預期心理呢非常的非理性而且非常強就這樣子"},{"start":782.455,"end":809.173,"text":"所以你暫時非理性非理性就是那非理性不過現在就是說喔好那這樣價格下來的又他的那個戶的能量呢已經釋放了所以現在我們在超過的話就很順暢我聽你說我見你幾回了你後面那幾回我跟你講對我沒有說服力啦你五千八百億VS一天二三十億你打不過他笑死人啦我跟委員報告啦"},{"start":814.599,"end":816.723,"text":"央行的調節也是要有節制的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":261,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時46分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請央行楊總裁、國發會高副主委。"],["主席：有請楊總裁、高副主委。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。剛才兩位長官都有提到，特別是國發基金，國發會的主張跟楊總裁講的一樣……請財政部次長一起來。主權基金應該是政府出錢，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：由政府出錢，所以國發基金其實很適合成立主權基金，這點總裁同意嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：剛才已經向顏委員說明過，第一個，因為主權基金的規模通常都比較大……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你的太小？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，我們用國庫撥款跟作業盈餘來循環運用，所以不夠。"],["賴委員士葆：太小。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：第二個，主權基金很重要的一點就是專業管理。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：至於人員聘用跟薪資方面，由於國發基金要符合公務人員任用法……"],["賴委員士葆：這個剛剛有講過，不用再講。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：所以這點可能也會受限。"],["賴委員士葆：我請教財政部，如果國家主權基金成立了，因為現在好像一直有這樣的聲音，所以財政部一肩挑起，如何？財政部有錢啊！"],["阮次長清華：這個可能還要再討論。有關財源這部分央行有一些建議，比如由財政部發債，或財政部出資成立，或財政部委託經營等等……"],["賴委員士葆：我請問單獨的……"],["阮次長清華：就發行公債來講，目前公債法的規定只有兩種：一種是甲種公債，只用來貼補財政收支差短；另外，乙種公債是為了作為自償財源……"],["賴委員士葆：這個沒關係……"],["阮次長清華：如果要再成立主權基金並透過發債的方式，就一定要透過專案立法，充分討論，且要取得各界共識。"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你，總裁一直反對，因為現在有很多人在打他主意，說要撥外匯存底來成立主權基金。他在今天的報告中強調，反對無償使用外匯存底來成立主權基金！要的話就請財政部發債，用政府的錢成立主權基金，畢竟光國發會的國發基金金額太少，其實以我們的情況來講，財政部發債發得太少了，要就多發一點，這也不是壞事，臺灣有錢啊！"],["阮次長清華：有關發債，我們目前就是依照公債法的規定來發債，所以剛才我講……"],["賴委員士葆：可不可以發債成立主權基金？"],["阮次長清華：發債成立主權基金的話，我剛才講過，一定要大家有共識……"],["賴委員士葆：立專法。"],["阮次長清華：因為主權基金基本上是創富基金……"],["賴委員士葆：你不用再講了，我也不是要問你。兩位請回。","總裁，你強調的幾個原則要堅守到底。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員士葆：也就是反對無償使用？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：立專法，由財政部出錢，以政府的錢成立，這些你要堅守，我們是支持你的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員士葆：不要我們支持你，結果到時候你跑掉了，你不可以這樣子！你不會跑掉吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，事實上，我們一貫的立場這一路走來都是一樣的。"],["賴委員士葆：不管行政院給你什麼壓力！你剛才講了一句話，我聽了有點不知該怎麼講。我覺得總裁是老實人、「古意人」，你剛才講一個什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：一個聲明，一個澄清。"],["賴委員士葆：我另外用白話文幫你詮釋，也就是你的表達方式也許有些人不滿意，但你很真誠、很實在，而且資料很管用，這樣對嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對！"],["賴委員士葆：對？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員是……"],["賴委員士葆：我詮釋得比你清楚？"],["楊總裁金龍：對！我就說我的口才不好，而委員口才非常好，幾句話就把我想要說的說出來了，所以非常謝謝你！"],["賴委員士葆：對不對？這樣講就好了！"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對。"],["賴委員士葆：你不要說口才不好，你要說我的表達方式大家不一定滿意。"],["楊總裁金龍：因為他說我結結巴巴，還說我是史詩級的結巴，他聽了非常害怕。我就說我要澄清，也藉這個場合來澄清。畢竟我讓他心生害怕，好像市場人士一聽到我講話大家都很害怕，反而預期心理會更強烈。沒有啊！後面反而就好了，整個都消化了。"],["賴委員士葆：你看了那些報導，不分藍綠、不管哪一台，你聽了很生氣是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也不是很生氣，因為我總覺得……"],["賴委員士葆：很不爽？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我說我必須要做澄清，就是我們的……"],["賴委員士葆：那個已經講夠了，不過你講話還是有用的！"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：你講完話，30塊就穩下來了！其實也不是你講話有用，而是你開始下手調節了。請問有沒有調節？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，預期心理很強的時候，調節是比較……"],["賴委員士葆：是必要的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，調節是必要的……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：但比較沒有用。"],["賴委員士葆：美國有action你就調節啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是價格下來以後，我們的調節就變得非常順利。"],["賴委員士葆：我問你，外界是不是可以解讀說，因為你已經出手了，而且發這麼大的脾氣，所以30塊錢大概可以暫時穩定一段時間，可以這樣講嗎？可以嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：什麼？我沒有聽清楚。"],["賴委員士葆：我剛剛說你發這麼大的脾氣，然後講話了，所以30塊錢應該可以穩定一段時間？"],["楊總裁金龍：我沒有發那麼大的脾氣，我只是跟市場傳遞一個訊息：到此為止，所以非理性的……"],["賴委員士葆：到此為止？所以就是30塊了？"],["楊總裁金龍：我是說非理性的預期到此為止。"],["賴委員士葆：總裁，我跟你講，我已經查資料了。我們現在有多少外匯存底？"],["楊總裁金龍：5,800億。"],["賴委員士葆：5,800億？那麼一天的外匯交易量是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：平常一天的外匯交易量大概是20億到30億……"],["賴委員士葆：最多40億？"],["楊總裁金龍：大概25億。"],["賴委員士葆：25億要應付這個？a piece of 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