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我們是預估我是委員委員好 今年我們是有預估預估是3.14這是我們一處預估那假設新台幣兌美元匯率跌破澎湃南房線的話那你的經濟成長率大概是抓多少"},{"start":50.458,"end":68.331,"text":"因為我們還會要看整個一個那個就是關稅的一個情形還有其他一些相關的因素在做評估如果就澎湃南的防線突破的話那你覺得對國內的經濟成長的影響情況是如何應該是會有我們這個部分我們預估是會再降低一點的"},{"start":78.407,"end":97.373,"text":"降低一點點,會不會降低0.1還是0.01降0.1%一個百分點百分之0.1,所以你們是有沙盤推演那請問澎淮南防線是新台幣多少對一美元多少,這個部分要"},{"start":99.344,"end":112.954,"text":"你剛剛怎麼會有0.01的那個數字怎麼來的?我再想,當然我不曉得他們怎麼做一個假設,我不曉得他的假設"},{"start":116.276,"end":134.919,"text":"不過我答覆委員你在說彭淮南黃線的時候我會有一個疑問我就說好像從來我們總裁也都從來沒有講過他的黃線是在哪裡的所以那個委員在講說彭淮南黃線的時候我就總覺得怎麼會有這個彭淮南黃線的這個字眼出現那你請幕僚"},{"start":144.921,"end":159.394,"text":"沒有啊中央銀行裡面的我們從來從不談這個沒有就是說而且這個防線你如果說是這樣我再猜可能是那個幕僚財下過去歷史的報章那大概都是市場就是說蓬蓬財的那個什麼防線事實上我跟委員報告"},{"start":169.824,"end":173.046,"text":"韓國的央行總裁李昌雍你熟悉嗎我熟悉啊"},{"start":188.334,"end":203.307,"text":"他為什麼說這一波亞幣的大幅上漲是因為來自美國的壓力啊我這個前幾個委員都問過了你怎麼回答不是我怎麼回答因為他講了這個的時候有很多人確定包括學者有去"},{"start":211.414,"end":230.089,"text":"包括就是說他們去從他的講話裡面去好好的這個是韓國人的去翻譯好好的翻譯說這個報導跟他所說的是根本就是說差距很大所以又是一場誤會我也不敢這麼說因為我不曉得韓語一場誤會就是一場夢啦可是總裁如果說委員要做這樣的一個說法的話我也贊同"},{"start":240.227,"end":253.274,"text":"你覺得這是一場夢那總是要有夢醒時刻夢醒時分就是總裁你在前幾天我看到你大家都那麼熟我覺得你有苦難掩所以我剛剛所以我剛剛我就說一開始的時候我有一個澄清有一個聲明澄清就是說"},{"start":267.381,"end":275.827,"text":"因為我的口才不好所以有些時候講話我講話的時候會結結巴巴他們都把他解釋說我有藍炎之癮對啊 那我就馬上要澄清他確實沒有這回事然後他又說因為有藍炎之癮所以我不善於說謊這個說謊又把他放進來確實沒有這回事沒有這回事總裁如果你沒有藍炎之癮的話"},{"start":298.283,"end":309.842,"text":"看強美元還是看弱美元所以我剛剛就又再回答了我說歷任的財政部長都說要強勢美元"},{"start":310.785,"end":322.857,"text":"那只有一個財政部長就前任的財政部長他稍微改口他認為說匯率是由市場供需來決定沒有所謂的強勢美元缺弱勢美元總裁就聽聽就好了"},{"start":327.891,"end":334.698,"text":"現在你說的也不算,葉門說的也不算,現在全世界只有一個人說的算,川普為了要讓美國偉大,那你覺得美國為了走勢會強勢嗎?"},{"start":349.814,"end":352.655,"text":"我跟委員報告啦我的邏輯啦我請教嘛總裁他如果說你是說可能他強勢好那如果美元如果強勢的話那請問美國怎麼樣偉大美國製造的東西他怎麼賣出口啊沒有出口他怎麼製造順差啊"},{"start":371.243,"end":391.594,"text":"所以這是一個很簡單的邏輯那我想請問一下總裁就是說你現在外匯存底是跟2300萬的國民息息相關你保管處理這些資產央行中央銀行法的第二條寫得很清楚有一條是什麼"},{"start":392.754,"end":409.061,"text":"貨幣要維持穩定嘛對那既然要維持穩定你為什麼不在這個幣別裡面在我兩年前三年前我就建議啊總裁你考不考慮買一些比特幣那時候是一個是六千塊美金啊"},{"start":409.761,"end":433.423,"text":"我還曾經多次的建議央行不論是在這邊或在文園我說這個黃金看起來閃閃發光每盎司是一千兩百七十塊的時候我說那可不可以說基建賣幾百個賣五百個因為你們那個台灣銀行有一個什麼楊天立不是承認部的"},{"start":434.366,"end":443.029,"text":"那個黃金網子啊他們都有研究我都請教了所以假設1780塊1270塊每盎司的時候你買進1000億台幣那1000億的話"},{"start":454.373,"end":461.418,"text":"請問總裁,今天的話,你等於是賺了多少錢?是啦,我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我..."},{"start":474.308,"end":495.924,"text":"總裁 那個委員 我要答問你兩個問題第一個 你就是說為什麼不買比特幣 不買黃金那我事實上 委員上一次也回答 提問了這個問題那我也就是說 我非常佩服委員的"},{"start":497.507,"end":510.992,"text":"的遠見但是呢我就說從中央銀行的一個manage叫我們外存體的一個準則來看的話那又是另外一回事我記得我有做這樣的一個說明第一個我要謝謝總裁對我的佩服我也接受嘛"},{"start":520.055,"end":534.393,"text":"可是面對外在情懷的變化我要提醒總裁全世界包括日本包括挪威包括很多國家現在美國公債的部分他們全部開始套跑一步一步的解決請問"},{"start":539.679,"end":553.868,"text":"請問總裁你對於央行現在所持有的美國公債你會不會採取減持的動作你現在那個委員你又再講就是說92%的我們都持有公債不對"},{"start":554.988,"end":567.596,"text":"這個副總裁講的不是我講的嗎沒有我們副總裁他在市長在主席的在啊我上一次的時候他已經糾正了有糾正是副總裁講的我們已經澄清了嘛副總裁講92他說80幾這樣減少了啦92現在剩80幾"},{"start":572.299,"end":579.681,"text":"所以我也不必要再重複不過呢我跟委員報告啦至於就是說你說我們也回答啦就是說要調整中央銀行要調整我們都是很靈活的我們現在手上有沒有人民幣我們也有一些幾%"},{"start":598.175,"end":622.179,"text":"不高你為什麼不高一點呢因為他的利率現在第一個我要說明的就是說第一個人民幣我們為什麼握有人幣最主要是因為我們台商跟台商他有人民幣的需求他的settlement需要到人民幣所以他的一個流動性我們必須要我們必須要握有這樣的一個流動性這是第一點"},{"start":623.019,"end":641.641,"text":"但是呢我們也不能就說我們隨時我就像你說的啊我們隨時在調整你看看那個人民幣的利率一直掉啊利率一直掉那美國的利率會不會掉目前他還是點幾啊可是下個月呢"},{"start":642.622,"end":655.986,"text":"我不曉得那這樣子總統我跟你賭一碗牛肉麵今年美國的利率一定會往下調這個我想我不必要那個啦我們不用賭啦我來請你一碗牛肉麵我們不用賭那你請我我來請大家啦"},{"start":664.649,"end":686.845,"text":"那個因為時間關係最後就問一下謝謝楊總裁我問一下那個財政部那個阮市長那你每次官基金啟動都是互足有功啊都穩住了那你現在其實目前進場大概多少金額這個包委員這個不方便在這邊說明但是私底下我再那這次應該也會賺錢吧會不會"},{"start":688.866,"end":706.641,"text":"國安基金不是以賺錢為目的啦我想委員很清楚嘛我們最主要是要穩定股市我知道你們這一波又買了很多台積電因為畢竟他的權值比較大好 謝謝 那請國發會那我就要請一下那個高副主委我們手上很多的台積電"},{"start":709.162,"end":723.94,"text":"從兩年前到現在有沒有賣過沒有一張都沒賣是 因為它是我們的護國神山所以不會賣基本上因為是我們的關鍵產業OK 可是我們的護國神山已經變成美積電了"},{"start":725.722,"end":729.263,"text":"不會所以台積電會守住會不會跌我們對台積電有充分的信心"},{"start":745.188,"end":765.621,"text":"我覺得我們國人都應該要有這樣的信息另外一個就是國發基金現在整個加起來總市值是多少兩兆 因為我們的資產有兩兆對去年表現的情況是平均的嗎我們營養有三百多億去年OK 好 謝謝是 謝謝好 謝謝林平強委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":566,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（10時36分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請主計長及財政部次長？"],["主席：請主計長還有財政部。"],["羅委員明才：還有央行楊總裁、國發會高副主委。"],["主席：請楊總裁及國發會副主委。"],["羅委員明才：首先請問一下主計長，我們今年的經濟成長率是多少？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。今年我們有預估是3.14%，這是我們主計處的預估。"],["羅委員明才：假設新臺幣兌美元匯率跌破彭淮南防線的話，那你的經濟成長率大概是抓多少？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：因為我們還要看整個的關稅情形，還有其他相關的因素再做評估，第1季其實是很好。"],["羅委員明才：是，那如果就彭淮南防線突破的話，你覺得對國內經濟成長的影響情況是如何？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：應該是會有……這個部分我們預估是會再降低一點點。"],["羅委員明才：降低一點點？會不會降低0.1%，還是0.01%？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：0.1%。"],["羅委員明才：0.1%，所以你們是有沙盤推演。那請問彭淮南防線是新臺幣多少兌一美元？那你剛剛怎麼會有0.01%的那個數字，是怎麼來的？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！當然……"],["羅委員明才：楊總裁，從哪裡來的？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然我不曉得他們做什麼假設……"],["羅委員明才：那央行算的經濟……"],["楊總裁金龍：我不曉得他的假設，不過我答復委員，你在說彭淮南防線的時候，我也有一個疑問，我就說好像我們總裁也都從來沒有講過他的防線是在哪裡。"],["羅委員明才：報紙都看見了，是26塊半，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以委員在講彭淮南防線的時候我總覺得，我就說怎麼會有彭淮南防線的這個字眼出現？"],["羅委員明才：那你請幕僚看看……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有啊！中央銀行裡面，我們從來不談這個，沒有，而且這個防線，你如果說是這樣，我在猜可能是那個……"],["羅委員明才：你就請你的幕僚查一下過去歷史的報章雜誌。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，那大概都是市場……就是說彭總裁的那個什麼防線是……事實上我跟委員報告……"],["羅委員明才：所以沒有彭淮南防線？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我跟委員誠實地報告……"],["羅委員明才：那有沒有楊金龍防線？"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然就更沒有，更不可能。"],["羅委員明才：都沒有？這樣子，總裁，韓國的央行總裁李昌鏞，你熟悉嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我熟悉。"],["羅委員明才：他為什麼說這一波亞幣大幅上漲是因為來自美國的壓力？"],["楊總裁金龍：前幾個委員也都問過了。"],["羅委員明才：都問過了，那你怎麼回答？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為他講了這個，有很多人確定……包括學者有去……包括就是他們從他的講話裡面去好好地……這個是韓國人，去好好翻譯，這個報導跟他所說的根本就是差距很大。"],["羅委員明才：所以又是一場誤會？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也不敢這麼說。"],["羅委員明才：那就是一場誤會？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為我不曉得韓語。"],["羅委員明才：一場誤會就是一場夢了啊！可是總裁……"],["楊總裁金龍：那如果委員要做這樣一個說法的話，我也贊同。"],["羅委員明才：你覺得這個是一場夢？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒錯。"],["羅委員明才：好，那總是要有夢醒時分啊！就是在前幾天我看到你……大家都那麼熟喔！我覺得你……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟他熟啊！"],["羅委員明才：有苦難言耶！"],["楊總裁金龍：是嘛！所以我剛剛……"],["羅委員明才：一個記者會……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以剛剛我就說，一開始的時候我有一個澄清、有一個聲明，澄清說因為我的口才不好……"],["羅委員明才：你客氣了。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以有時候我講話的時候會結結巴巴，他們都解釋成我有難言之隱，那我就馬上要澄清啊！確實沒有這回事。"],["羅委員明才：那好……"],["楊總裁金龍：然後他又說，因為我有難言之隱，我不善於說謊，他又把說謊放進來。"],["羅委員明才：所以總裁……"],["楊總裁金龍：確實沒有這回事。"],["羅委員明才：所以沒有這回事。總裁，如果你沒有難言之隱的話，你是會看強美元還是看弱美元？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我剛剛就又再回答了，我說歷任的財政部長都說要強勢美元，只有一個財政部長，就是前任的葉倫財政部長稍微改口，他認為匯率是由市場供需決定，沒有所謂的強勢美元、弱勢美元。"],["羅委員明才：等一下，總裁，這個聽聽就好了。現在你說的也不算，葉倫說的也不算，現在全世界……"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然，因為他已經是前朝的財政部長。"],["羅委員明才：全世界只有一個人說了算，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我同意你的說法。"],["羅委員明才：是誰？就是川普說了才算。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["羅委員明才：川普為了要讓美國偉大，那你覺得美國未來走勢會強勢嗎？如果強勢……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我的邏輯……"],["羅委員明才：我請教總裁，你是說可能它強勢，美元如果強勢的話，那請問美國怎麼樣偉大？美國製造的東西怎麼賣出口？沒有出口，他要怎麼製造順差？所以這是一個很簡單的邏輯。我想請問總裁，現在你外匯存底是跟2,300萬國民息息相關……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["羅委員明才：你保管、處理這些資產，中央銀行法第二條寫得很清楚，有一條是什麼？貨幣要維持穩定。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["羅委員明才：既然要維持穩定，你為什麼不在這個幣別裡面……兩年前、三年前我就建議：總裁，你考不考慮買一些比特幣？那時候一個是6,000塊美金。我還曾經多次建議央行，不論是在這邊或在……我說黃金看起來閃閃發光，每盎司是1,270塊的時候，我說那可不可以加減買幾百億、買500億？因為臺灣銀行有一個楊天立，他不是財政部的黃金王子嗎？他們都有研究，我都請教了。所以假設每盎司是1,270塊的時候，你買進1,000億的話，請問總裁，今天你等於是賺了多少錢？賺1,000億嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！委員，我跟你報告……"],["羅委員明才：可是我一直搞不清楚的就是，為什麼央行要把92%的外匯存底全部押在美元公債或美元的資產上面？"],["楊總裁金龍：我答復你兩個問題。第一個，你說為什麼不買比特幣、不買黃金，事實上委員上一次也垂詢了這個問題，那我也說我非常佩服委員的遠見。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我就說從中央銀行的manage，就是我們外匯存底的準則來看的話，那又是另外一回事。我記得我有做這樣的說明，這是第一點。我就佩服你啊！"],["羅委員明才：第一個，我要謝謝總裁對我的佩服，我也接收，可是面對外在情況的變化，我要提醒總裁，全世界包括日本、挪威等很多國家，在美國公債的部分，他們全部開始落跑，一步一步地解約，請問總裁，對於央行現在所持有的美國公債，你會不會採取減持的動作？"],["楊總裁金龍：我先回答你這個問題，委員，你現在又在講我們92%都持有公債，不對！"],["羅委員明才：這個是副總裁講的，不是我講的。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我們副總裁在……"],["羅委員明才：賴士葆主席也在。"],["楊總裁金龍：我上一次的時候……"],["羅委員明才：這是誰講的？"],["主席：他已經糾正了，這是副總裁講的。"],["楊總裁金龍：我已經澄清了。"],["主席：副總裁講92%，他講百分之八十幾。"],["羅委員明才：減少了，92%現在剩百分之八十幾？"],["主席：92%是錯的。"],["楊總裁金龍：我已經講了，所以我也不必要再重複了。"],["主席：沒有92%。"],["羅委員明才：沒有92%，那是哪一位副總裁，今天有沒有來？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我跟委員報告，至於你說的我們也回答了，就是中央銀行要調整，我們都是很靈活的。"],["羅委員明才：我們現在手上有沒有人民幣？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們也有一些。"],["羅委員明才：百分之幾？"],["楊總裁金龍：不高。"],["羅委員明才：為什麼不高一點？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為它的利率，第一個，我要說明的是，我們為什麼握有人民幣，最主要是因為我們的臺商有人民幣的需求，它的settlement需要人民幣，所以為了它的流動性，我們必須要握有這樣的流動性，這是第一點。但是就像你說的，我們隨時在調整，人民幣的利率一直掉，你沒有發現到嗎？"],["羅委員明才：美國的利率會不會掉？"],["楊總裁金龍：目前它還有百分之四點幾。"],["羅委員明才：可是下個月呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我不曉得。"],["羅委員明才：總裁，我跟你賭一碗牛肉麵，今年美國的利率一定會往下調。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想不必要，我們不用賭，我來請你一碗牛肉麵，我們不用賭。"],["羅委員明才：你要請我吃喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們不用賭，我請你吃。"],["羅委員明才：你請我，我請大家。因為時間關係，謝謝楊總裁，我最後問一下財政部阮次長，每次國安基金啟動都是護主有功，都穩住了。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：截至目前進場大概多少金額？"],["阮次長清華：報告委員，這個不方便在這邊說明，私底下我再跟你報告。"],["羅委員明才：這一次應該也會賺錢，會不會？"],["阮次長清華：國安基金不是以賺錢為目的，我想委員很清楚，我們最主要是要穩定股市。"],["羅委員明才：我知道你們這一波又買了很多台積電。"],["阮次長清華：因為畢竟它的權值比較大。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。","請國發會高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：我們手上有很多台積電，從兩年前到現在有沒有賣過？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：沒有。"],["羅委員明才：一張都沒賣？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，因為它是我們的護國神山。"],["羅委員明才：所以不會賣？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上，因為它是我們的關鍵產業。"],["羅委員明才：可是我們的護國神山已經變成「美積電」了。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：不會。"],["羅委員明才：所以台積電……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：它的關鍵技術還是會根留臺灣。"],["羅委員明才：所以台積電會守住？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。"],["羅委員明才：會不會跌？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：股價我們不會預測。"],["羅委員明才：這是一個理財操作，如果你覺得它會跌……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：因為我們對台積電有充分的信心，我覺得我們國人都應該要有這樣的信心。"],["羅委員明才：另外，國發基金現在整個加起來的總市值是多少？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們的資產有兩兆。"],["羅委員明才：去年表現的情況是平均多少？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們去年的盈餘有三百多億。"],["羅委員明才：OK，謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員的質詢。","我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時49分）","繼續開會（10時59分）"],["主席：報告委員會，我們繼續開會。","下一位請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}