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甚至有人提到說50幾塊所以剛剛那個委員就說建議我們就是說這個星星之火啊 也應該要趕快撲滅那這個當然就是說 我們認為就是說這怎麼有可能 怎麼有可能到那個總統剛剛講好像當時候央行有點輕忽了這種星星之火可以燎原的趨勢"},{"start":211.641,"end":227.315,"text":"當然啦 不過我們也是有私下跟這些評論員接觸啦希望他們不要這樣子啦但是已經造成了這個效果啦最後升到29.5%左右啊所以呢 也就是說 我說我們也會記取教訓啦對於這個新興之火 我們也必須要立即的做"},{"start":235.982,"end":253.273,"text":"我覺得這個教訓真的要繼續啦是是是因為接下來我又看到說這個包含這個國民黨的主席啊他講說這個接下來不是只有關稅戰是貨幣戰然後又講說那接下來呢可能在本週或是下週呢"},{"start":254.554,"end":268.472,"text":"這個我們就會接到美國財政部的匯率報告他說台灣一定會被列明為觀察名單而且是嚴重的觀察名單所以我是不曉得誰在講這個因為今天那這次我就是要主要讓總裁要注意對對對好那我也剛剛我也藉這個機會也在澄清"},{"start":272.617,"end":293.752,"text":"所以我想委員給我讓我有這個機會再來重申就是說因為我們也有這個教訓所以你讓我有這個時間來說明第一個就是說嚴重的我不曉得是誰因為今天早上我很匆匆忙忙因為要來趕趕是誰不管我就說事實上絕對沒有所謂的嚴重的操縱匯率"},{"start":303.01,"end":309.478,"text":"後來好像我看了那個小標題呢它是大標題是嚴重的匯率超重但是呢它的小標題裡面呢是講就是說嚴重的匯率的觀察列為嚴重的觀察名單但是沒有這回事啦"},{"start":321.231,"end":342.422,"text":"不會有這回事我敢這樣的澄清這是第一點第二點就是說又有市場的人士就說六月的時候會有美債的危機所以我就說我必須要我剛剛的另外一個說明"},{"start":344.643,"end":359.629,"text":"5月1號5月2號5月5號我們說的都事實事實上呢這個海湖的那個莊園的那個協定根本就是到目前為止都沒有這個我知道那個央行新聞稿都有寫但是我就是要提醒總裁要注意"},{"start":360.629,"end":378.642,"text":"就是說台幣的升值它其實也有脈絡可循你剛剛講說4月8號之後那不斷在市場就有人放出這個消息面出來那現在包含這一個連在野黨的黨主席都出來講說接下來就是貨幣戰了接下來台灣就會被列為這間政府觀察名單的這個要注意啊"},{"start":379.842,"end":381.883,"text":"所以我也非常謝謝財委會今天安排這個議題讓我們來報告但是裡面雖然是主權基金的一個議題但是"},{"start":394.787,"end":423.056,"text":"很大部分的委員都是對這個匯率有一些的關心那我覺得我也非常感謝就是說財委給我們這個機會除了我們在5月5號的時候那個記者會我們來澄清事實上這一次也是很好的機會讓我們再次的澄清那我請教一下總裁那您認為說這一個台幣的合理匯率大概是"},{"start":423.576,"end":451.093,"text":"所以我還是對這個來講的話我不能抱名牌啊事實上那個名牌不是名牌所以我就說事實上匯率是供需來決定的它有上有下你現在就是說是在升但是有一天有一天它會扁啊對不對所以不要就是說它會升到什麼樣才是合理的Who knows誰曉得"},{"start":452.035,"end":452.898,"text":"但是我要強調的就是說"},{"start":455.54,"end":485.283,"text":"本波的新台幣的升值的規理性的預期心理到目前呢是so far so good已經就把那個負的能量已經釋放出來so far so good就對了就是可以控制掌握就對了應該是我們的調解呢已經就是說幾乎是供需是平衡了所以我們調解呢就不像前幾天這樣的那麼的辛苦所以呢我想呢我們在這邊再做一次澄清我是覺得是非常好的"},{"start":485.743,"end":510.686,"text":"那我再問一下主權基金那那個卓院長他是比較積極的態度在推動這個主權基金那我也看到這一個央行的報告那我想請教一下那央行也是認為說是可以設主權基金但是要用專法的方式來做處理就對了那您認為說主權基金規模大概要多大這個所以我就說嘛我還是覺得就是說"},{"start":511.667,"end":533.902,"text":"要設立主權基金這個是我們政府必須要他做的決定中央銀行應該就說市場很多都說以前都是中央銀行反對啦所以才沒辦法成立主權基金說實在不對我看你們是支持的嘛對啊但是就是設專法嘛而且不要動到外匯嘛對不對我們就說外匯"},{"start":541.747,"end":567.523,"text":"不能無償的撥用我們只是強調這裡所以也就是說成立主權基金這個是政府的事政府呢應該要怎麼來研議那至於我們中央銀行呢我們也不便在這邊說它的規模要多少啊那你要怎麼樣怎麼樣我覺得那個涉及到說它的這個主權基金的這個基金的來源啊是是是那我們有提到就是說不是跟財政部有相關的嗎發債撥款"},{"start":569.304,"end":580.53,"text":"然後出資這都是跟財政部相關的啦那除了這個財政部之外那其他委員有提到說譬如說四大基金有提到國發基金那他們適合投資嗎所以國發基金有他們的立場"},{"start":584.892,"end":613.083,"text":"他的意見他真正的意見是怎麼樣他們也要必須要再嚴厲那至於四大基金他們態度是如何他們自己也要就是說因應如果說政府要成立主權基金的時候他們要如何來協助假設說政府是這樣但是呢決定都是由他們的中央銀行不能就說他一定要加入中央銀行沒有這個權利確實都沒有這個權利好那我最後一點時間就請這個國發會的這個副主委好了"},{"start":613.723,"end":632.694,"text":"因為我剛剛聽很多的委員都有問到相關的問題總裁先請回好了那國發會對於這個設立主權基建的態度是怎麼樣我想剛剛總裁也說明了我們建議還是用專法的方式來做那基金的來源呢"},{"start":633.38,"end":654.865,"text":"資金的來源齊總才有講到可以用發債的方式用發債的方式所以國發委認為說用發債的方式是一個做的是國瀑布其實有因為到時候會成立一個專案小組我們會就資金來源的投措的方式還有資金的金額等等我們會進行相關的討論那不建議動用到目前的四大基金就對了"},{"start":658.058,"end":665.763,"text":"就是如果發債的話,有可能市場基金也可以購買債券還有很多方式可以來運用"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":780,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時11分）謝謝主席，我們先讓總裁先喝口水，可以嗎？好，那就請總裁。"],["主席：請總裁。"],["李委員坤城：喝完水就可以上來了。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員早。"],["李委員坤城：總裁好，辛苦了！"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：當然大家都很關心最近臺幣升值的問題，剛剛很多委員也都有在問了，也因為波動比較大、升值的力道比較大，所以在5月5號的時候，包含總統跟總裁都有出來講話，總統是用錄影的方式，那總裁是親自召開記者會，我看到總統有特別提到說，第一個，它可能是市場預期的心理；第二個，可能是不實的訊息企圖來操縱市場。我想先請教一下總裁，總統所說的市場預期心理是指什麼？預期臺幣會升值？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！所以我們在5月5號的新聞稿裡面的第六點就講得很清楚，我們籲請市場評論人員切勿以臆測的方式評論國內匯市相關議題，避免影響國內匯市的秩序及穩定，這會波及到……"],["李委員坤城：我有看到央行的新聞稿。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，所以我們裡面是寫得稍微比較溫和一點，事實上，我們也希望他們節制，不要導致市場非理性的預期，非理性的預期會導致兩個現象，第一個現象就是市場秩序會亂掉，第二個會不穩定，波及到我們的經濟層面，讓中央銀行維持市場秩序的職責變得更困難，這是第一點。第二點，我們也呼籲我們的廠商也不必要太聽信這些市場謠言，如果這樣的話，你一直拋拋拋，中央銀行也是盡我們職責，我們要來調節，但是因為他的預期心理太強了，所以我們也呼籲我們的廠商也要注意，你如果一直在拋拋拋的時候，到最後你也會傷到你自己。"],["李委員坤城：我問一下總裁，大概哪時候開始觀察到臺幣升值的力道開始逐漸加強？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，4月30號左右大概就……"],["李委員坤城：可是大概……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以剛剛有一個委員，我覺得他的建議也很好啦！醞釀新臺幣升值的預期，事實上在4月中，即在4月8號以後，就是在川普的那個4月2號以後，大概就慢慢地、慢慢地形成，你看看評論員就說匯率到哪裡，要用大麥克指數啦、什麼的，所以那時候就開始……"],["李委員坤城：我覺得央行那時候就應該……"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對，所以那個時候就開始在醞釀了。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！那時候就開始在講臺幣會不斷地升值，甚至有人提到什麼十幾塊……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以剛剛那個委員建議我們，對此星星之火應該要趕快撲滅，當然我們認為這怎麼有可能到那個，所以我們只是……"],["李委員坤城：總裁這樣講，好像當時候央行有點輕忽了星星之火可以燎原的趨勢啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：當然啦！不過，我們也有私下跟這些評論員接觸，希望他們不要這樣子……"],["李委員坤城：但是已經造成了這個效果啦！最後升到29.5左右啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是！我說我們也會記取教訓啦！對於這個星星之火，我們也必須要立即做一些澄清。"],["李委員坤城：我覺得這個教訓真的要記取啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是！"],["李委員坤城：因為接下來我看到包含國民黨的主席，他講接下來不是只有關稅戰，是貨幣戰，然後又講接下來可能在本週或是下週，我們就會接到美國財政部的匯率報告，他說臺灣一定會被列名為觀察名單，而且是嚴重的觀察名單。"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，我是不曉得誰在講這個啦，因為今天……"],["李委員坤城：但我覺得總裁就是要處理！"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對！好，剛剛我藉這個機會也再澄清了，所以我想委員也讓我有這個機會再來重申，因為我們也有這個教訓嘛，所以你讓我有這個時間來說明，第一個，我不曉得是誰，因為今天早上我很匆匆忙忙，因為要趕著來會議，不管是誰……"],["李委員坤城：沒有，我就是說國民黨黨主席欸！"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，我就說絕對沒有所謂的嚴重的操縱匯率，後來好像我看了那個小標題，它的大標題是嚴重的匯率操縱，但它的小標題裡面是講嚴重的匯率觀察……"],["李委員坤城：他說會被列為嚴重的觀察名單。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！嚴重的觀察名單，但是沒有這回事，不會有這回事。"],["李委員坤城：不會有這回事？但是類似這一種……"],["楊總裁金龍：不會有這回事。我敢這樣澄清，這是第一點；第二點，又有市場人士說6月的時候會有美債的危機。"],["李委員坤城：對！"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛另外一個說明，5月1號、5月2號、5月5號我們說的都是事實，事實上，海湖莊園協定根本到目前為止都沒有這個……"],["李委員坤城：我知道，央行的新聞稿都有寫。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對！"],["李委員坤城：但我就是要提醒總裁要注意，臺幣的升值其實也有脈絡可循，你剛才講在4月8號之後，在市場就有人不斷放出這個消息面出來，現在連在野黨的黨主席都出來講接下來就是貨幣戰了，接下來臺灣就會被列為嚴重的觀察名單了，這都要注意啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，所以我也非常謝謝財委會今天安排這個議題讓我們來報告，裡面雖然是主權基金的議題，但很大部分的委員都是對匯率有一些關心，我也非常感謝財委會給我們這個機會，除了我們在5月5號的記者會來澄清，事實上，這一次也是很好的機會，讓我們再次澄清。"],["李委員坤城：好，我請教一下總裁，您認為臺幣合理的匯率大概是？"],["楊總裁金龍：對這個來講的話，我不能報明牌啊！事實上，那個明牌也不是明牌。"],["李委員坤城：總是有一個區間嘛，你覺得比較合理的……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以，事實上匯率是供需來決定的，它有上有下，你說現在是在升……"],["李委員坤城：但是到29.5元，你就覺得升到有不合理的情況會出來嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是有一天它會貶啊！對不對？所以也不要認為它會升到哪裡才是合理的，who knows，誰曉得。但我要強調的就是本波新臺幣升值的非理性預期心理，到目前是so far so good，已經把負的能量釋放走了。"],["李委員坤城：OK，so far so good就對了，就是可以控制、掌握就對了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對！應該是我們的調節，幾乎供需是平衡了，所以我們的調節就不像前幾天這樣的辛苦，所以我想我們在這邊再做一次澄清，我覺得是非常好的。"],["李委員坤城：好，我再問一下主權基金，卓院長是比較積極的態度在推動主權基金，我也看到央行的報告，我想請教一下，央行也認為是可以設主權基金，但是要用專法的方式來做處理就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員坤城：您認為主權基金規模大概要多大？"],["楊總裁金龍：我還是覺得要設立主權基金，這個是我們政府必須要做的決定，中央銀行應該……"],["李委員坤城：對，我的意思是說看起來卓院長的態度是想要設立主權基金。"],["楊總裁金龍：市場很多都說以前是中央銀行反對，所以才沒辦法成立主權基金，說實在的，這不對。"],["李委員坤城：我看你們是支持的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊，我們一直說我們的態度是開放的。"],["李委員坤城：你們是支持的，但就是設專法嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我們……"],["李委員坤城：而且不要動到外匯，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們就是說外匯不能無償的撥用，我們只是強調這個，也就是說成立主權基金，這個是政府的事，政府應該要怎麼來研議，至於我們中央銀行也不便在這邊說它的規模要多少，要怎麼樣、怎麼樣，我覺得那就是政府的事。"],["李委員坤城：那就涉及到這個主權基金的資金來源。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，那我們也做，在我們的……"],["李委員坤城：因為你們提到的都是跟財政部有相關的，發債、撥款、出資這些都是跟財政部相關的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員坤城：除了財政部之外，其他委員也有提到，譬如四大基金，也有提到國發基金，他們適合投資嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：國發基金有他們的立場、意見，它真正的意見是怎麼樣，他們也必須要再研議。至於四大基金，他們的態度是如何，他們自己也要因應，如果政府要成立主權基金，他們要如何來協助？假設政府的政策是這樣，但是決定都是由他們來做，中央銀行不能說它一定要加入，中央銀行確實沒有這個權力。"],["李委員坤城：好，我最後一點時間就請國發會副主委，因為我剛聽很多的委員都有問到相關的問題。"],["主席：副主委請。"],["李委員坤城：總裁先請回。國發會對於設立主權基金的態度是怎麼樣？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想剛剛總裁也說明了，我們建議還是用專法的方式來做。"],["李委員坤城：資金的來源呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：資金的來源其實總裁有講到，可以用發債的方式。"],["李委員坤城：用發債的方式？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["李委員坤城：國發會也認為用發債的方式是一個……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：或者是國庫撥補，因為到時候會成立一個專案小組，我們會就資金來源的籌措方式，還有資金的金額等等進行相關的討論。"],["李委員坤城：不建議動用到目前的四大基金就對了？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：如果發債的話，有可能四大基金也可以購買債券，間接的引入。"],["李委員坤城：用這種方式？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["李委員坤城：OK。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：其實還有很多方式可以來運用。"],["李委員坤城：好，我知道了，謝謝。也謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的質詢。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}