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對不對有需求了嘛後面這句話請貴部貴部什麼樣交通部對不對"},{"start":316.021,"end":331.921,"text":"硬量的成長的情形要適時提出輕軌計畫就是要叫你們做嘛第一個你們現在提了沒有報告委員第二個有沒有叫你們要你們說我可以說嗎好報告委員您大概不了解對行政院來說各縣市的捷運系統都是由交通部提出的"},{"start":332.702,"end":361.444,"text":"各縣市送到交通部交通部在提出但交通部提出不代表交通部全部出錢這一點非常清楚各縣市的輕軌或捷運都是一致性的所以不要只有看到這句話就擴大解釋中...我看嘉義縣市也開了好幾次會啦包括你們協助專家都邀請來了現在兩個點嘛第一個 這個公文上面清清楚楚要你要繼續像BRT那樣做嘛對不對 不要擴大解釋沒有啦沒有你剛剛講的那些都是後話啦本來有在討論說要不要第一點嘛"},{"start":361.784,"end":389.384,"text":"現在今天就是兩個點嘛第一個我公文都是給你看的我也給你一次公文啊你要 你依據公文你要做啊對行政院來說當初PRT是交通部做的當初的行政院也叫你要做嘛他沒有叫我們要做啊對啊這是第一點第二點我剛剛講你為什麼不能夠比照機場捷運你是看我自己他不看不清楚機場捷運是因為桃園機場是國門保證現在更重要的為什麼行政院長那如果您這樣說的話我是不是也看不起我們自己台中人"},{"start":390.271,"end":410.376,"text":"你人家很粗啊 董事長你人家很粗啊是不是啊 已經蓋完了啊你把手給我站起來他們彰化 他們現在站起來彰化的立委可以幫他們爭取啊為什麼 全國都是一致性的來啦 國進現在同情了啦 全國都是一致性的部長現在最重要的啦是行政院長清清楚楚在國會跟大家講372個你要出嘛 對不對"},{"start":412.404,"end":436.63,"text":"報告委員我已經解釋過那是幕僚所提供的資料讓院長誤解了這一點我非常抱歉我昨天道歉過一次我今天再道歉一次嘉義人不要你誤解嘉義人要你解決問題嘛啊你行政院長宣布當初你當初有問題那天你就應該數數他這樣講對不對高雄的左營站他所串接的捷運也是中央補助地方出比較多的錢"},{"start":437.11,"end":458.082,"text":"都是一樣的所以你都去挑一部分你為什麼不挑像季節這樣好了明明就可以幫嘉義嘉義縣市一個發展的為什麼不動各縣市的捷運只要串接高鐵都是中央出錢並不是這樣這是錯誤的說法來來來 柏定現在最新的柏定現在最新的最重要的嘛行政院長公開講了嘛那你在旁邊嘛不是 我就解釋過這是口誤我就解釋過這是口誤"},{"start":462.028,"end":477.718,"text":"口誤這什麼是口誤呢我們剛剛講依法依公文都可以做的事情為什麼要口誤嘉義縣市爭取這條輕軌已經爭取那麼久了啊怎麼會是口誤呢而且你只要照那一天的你去承擔你那天講說爭取是用地費那用地費我們就我們來付啊"},{"start":482.83,"end":484.591,"text":"交通部的2020版的這個運輸政策白皮書就先是說完整城市的這個網際的這個鐵路的運輸網啊"},{"start":503.445,"end":531.102,"text":"要把高鐵跟台鐵做一個串聯是國家的重要政策之一啊你們要去落實這個事情啊大眾決議法第13條也明確說大眾決議系統應該是由中央主管機關來辦理啊所以你本來要依法你就可以這樣做啊現在事情怎麼樣你把我們嘉義漏掉嘛是不是這樣我知道法令上你們一直在鑽漏洞在解釋一個不見得你明明是可以照顧嘉義縣市全國性"},{"start":532.385,"end":541.351,"text":"統一的原則跟規則我不可能為了嘉義市跟別的地方不一樣全國性統一的規則跟原則就是交通部必須那個是為了桃園機場如果每一個縣市都這麼說交通部該怎麼做"},{"start":554.008,"end":580.892,"text":"那你讓他如果你認為整個地區的發展都需要你就應該去做啊為什麼不能做呢那您可以修法啊法律已經有啦現在是你自己的用裁量方式啊你不要擴大去解釋你在依法可以的狀況之下你要照顧嘉義縣市結果你不照顧嘛國家的重要政策也是嘉義市跟嘉義縣的人家生氣什麼你可以做的還有你行政院長公開講的你現在要吃我玩我嗎全國一致性原則我們就欺負我們嘛"},{"start":581.492,"end":603.042,"text":"全國一致性原則我還是要強調全國一致性原則我不要 我知道時間不要影響到後面啦我告訴你第一 嘉義人會爭取到底我們不會被欺負也不會被欺騙啦從來沒有欺負過嘉義人這個都是你可以做的事情那嘉義市民已經在慶祝了落實行政院長講的話我今天更指出來你保證那天站在旁邊"},{"start":605.41,"end":613.643,"text":"你們的對線你們的諾言要對線不要背信不要欺負不要欺騙嘉義人謝謝絕對不會欺負跟欺騙嘉義人謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":351,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時58分）請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，行政院怎麼可以說話不算話，出爾反爾，欺負、欺騙我們嘉義人？前天行政院長總質詢，我看答詢的時候，你也站在旁邊，你們兩個很清楚地表達，嘉義爭取多年的輕軌工程費372億，中央是要承擔的，我們嘉義市政府跟嘉義縣都已經在慶祝了，你怎麼可以把話又收回去呢？你看不起我們嘉義人嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，絕對不會看不起嘉義人。"],["張委員啓楷：那天不是只有行政院長卓榮泰明確對大家宣布，我看你就站在旁邊，對不對？那表示該做了啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我們爭取這麼久，你們也明確宣布了啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我昨天也很明確地說明了，當時我……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先給你看看當天質詢的狀況，你看，你就站在旁邊喔！","（播放影片）"],["張委員啓楷：部長，院長清清楚楚地講了，你是交通部長，你還站在旁邊，這句話不是只有嘉義市人看到，是全國人民都有看到，怎麼可以再縮回去呢？可以反悔嗎？這是公開的……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，不是反悔啦……"],["張委員啓楷：公開地打自己的嘴巴。第二個更重要……"],["陳部長世凱：這個當時我們已經很清楚地說明……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我問你更重要的，院長說真正的癥結卡在哪裡？卡在用地，嘉義縣跟嘉義市政府都講了，願意承擔這個費用，一個0.66億、一個0.94億，我們都願意承擔，問題不就解決了！更重要的是，你是臺中人嘛！臺中的捷運綠線是什麼人出錢的？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，地方出比較多，中央出比較少。"],["張委員啓楷：你看看喔！我統計給你看，所有高鐵聯外道路，不管是鐵路或是後來的捷運，都是中央出的錢，你怎麼會漏掉嘉義縣市呢？難道嘉義縣市比較「細漢」？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，臺鐵當然是中央，但如果是輕軌跟捷運系統，都是中央支持地方興辦。"],["張委員啓楷：機捷是不是捷運？"],["陳部長世凱：機捷除外，機捷是為了機場，其他像臺中……"],["張委員啓楷：機捷為什麼要除外？因為它是重大工程，對不對？為什麼嘉義比較「細漢」，嘉義也是重大工程啊！"],["陳部長世凱：因為那是國家門戶。"],["張委員啓楷：國家門戶？那嘉義縣市都不重要嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：嘉義縣市很重要，所以中央會支持啊！"],["張委員啓楷：很重要，那你就要落實，為什麼獨漏我們？我們有比較「細漢」嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有漏，委員，您剛剛所提到的臺中綠線，地方出的錢也比中央更多啊！是吧？然後臺北的捷運，臺北的捷運串接到臺北火車站，也串接高鐵站，但捷運系統也是地方出比較多錢，這是全國都一致的。"],["張委員啓楷：單純是地方的，像嘉義市也有規劃以後有幾條輕軌，對不對？那個部分我們自己付，但現在是橫跨嘉義縣市，而且是國家重要的工程，就應該比照機捷來做。我再給你看一個……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，臺北的捷運也有跨縣市，不是嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：當然也是跨縣市，部長，等一下，我說是比照機捷來做。第二個，我給你看一個94年的公文，我先問你，嘉義輕軌還沒做，現在是BRT，對不對？當初BRT的錢誰出的、誰去建的？交通部嘛！難道是縣政府、市政府做的嗎？是交通部嘛！對不對？BRT當初就是中央、交通部做的，現在輕軌當然也是交通部做，來！看一下公文。"],["陳部長世凱：所以當時已經做了BRT啊！"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！BRT裡面……"],["陳部長世凱：當時聯外的設計就是BRT啊！"],["張委員啓楷：來！部長請看公文。當初先做BRT，是交通部做的，對不對？行政院94年核定，做了一個很重要的宣示，你看文字，「原有規劃輕軌捷運之議，考量政府財政狀況及運量需求」，當初人比較少，現在運量增加了，太保站那邊下來的人比南港站的人還多，所以它的流量是夠的，對不對？有需求了嘛！後面這句話：「請貴部」，貴部是什麼？是交通部，對不對？「請貴部參考本路廊運量之成長情形，再適時提出輕軌計畫。」這就是叫你們做嘛！第一個，你們現在提了沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你有沒有做？"],["陳部長世凱：我可以說明嗎？報告委員，您大概不了解，對行政院來說，各縣市的捷運系統都是由交通部提出，各縣市送到交通部，交通部再提出，但交通部提出不代表交通部全部出錢，這一點非常清楚，各縣市的輕軌或捷運都是一致性的，所以不要只看到這句話就擴大解釋……"],["張委員啓楷：我們嘉義縣市也開了好幾次會，包括學者專家，我們都有邀請，現在有兩個點，第一，公文上清清楚楚要你繼續像BRT那樣做，對不對？這是第一點……"],["陳部長世凱：委員，不要擴大解釋。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有、沒有，你剛剛講的那個都是後話……"],["陳部長世凱：不是後話……"],["張委員啓楷：本來有在討論要不要……現在就是兩個點，第一個，我公文都給你看了……"],["陳部長世凱：我也跟你解釋公文……"],["張委員啓楷：依據公文你要做啊！"],["陳部長世凱：對行政院來說，所有的交通跟……"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，當初BRT是交通部做的，當初行政院也叫你要做，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：它沒有叫我們要做。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！這是第一個，第二個，我剛剛講的，為什麼不能夠比照機場捷運？你是比較看不起我們嘉義嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：機場捷運是因為桃園機場是國門。"],["張委員啓楷：然後第三個更重要，部長，現在更重要的是，為什麼行政院長……"],["陳部長世凱：如果您這樣說的話，我是不是也看不起我們自己臺中人？"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！你也可以爭取啊！當然你要爭取啊！是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：已經蓋完了啊！"],["張委員啓楷：你看素月主席已經站起來了，他們彰化也是彰化的立委幫他們爭取啊！為什麼……"],["陳部長世凱：全國都是一致性的。"],["張委員啓楷：來啦！部長，現在是最重要的……"],["陳部長世凱：全國都是一致性的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長、部長，現在最重要的是，行政院長清清楚楚在國會跟大家講，372億你們要出，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我已經解釋過了，那是幕僚所提供的資料讓院長誤解了，這一點我非常抱歉，我昨天道歉過一次，今天再道歉一次。"],["張委員啓楷：嘉義人不要你誤解，嘉義人要你解決問題，行政院長宣布，當初你……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：當初有問題，那天你就應該阻止他這樣講，對不對？結果你站在旁邊……"],["陳部長世凱：高雄左營站所串接的捷運，也是中央補助，地方出比較多的錢，都是一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你都挑那一部分，你為什麼不挑像機捷這樣好的……"],["陳部長世凱：不是，您剛剛一開始不是說……"],["張委員啓楷：明明就可以幫嘉義縣市發展，為什麼不做？"],["陳部長世凱：您剛剛開始不是說各縣市的捷運只要串接高鐵，都是中央出錢，但其實並不是這樣，這是錯誤的說法，你可以回到剛剛那一頁。"],["張委員啓楷：來！部長，現在最新的、最重要的，就是行政院長公開講了，而你就在旁邊嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：不是，我就解釋過這是口誤。"],["張委員啓楷：啊？"],["陳部長世凱：我就解釋過這是口誤。"],["張委員啓楷：口誤？這怎麼是口誤呢？我們剛剛講……"],["陳部長世凱：就是院長誤解了資料，這點我非常抱歉！"],["張委員啓楷：依法、依公文都可以做的事情，為什麼是口誤？嘉義縣市爭取這條輕軌已經爭取那麼久了，怎麼會是口誤呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，輕軌跟捷運興建有一定的法規限制。"],["張委員啓楷：而且你只要照那一天的說法，去承擔……"],["陳部長世凱：一切照法規來……"],["張委員啓楷：他那天講說癥結是用地費，那用地費我們來付啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，一切照法規來，依法辦理、依法行政。"],["張委員啓楷：我今天給你看的就是法規，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：哪一個法規？"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛講的是公文，講的是其他的……"],["陳部長世凱：公文我也跟你解釋過，你還是沒有理解。"],["張委員啓楷：我們再來談一個比較重要的，交通部「2020年版運輸政策白皮書」已明示建立完整城際鐵路運輸網，將高鐵跟臺鐵做一個串聯，這是國家重要政策之一，你們要去落實。大眾捷運法第十三條也明確指出，大眾捷運系統建設應由中央主管機關辦理。所以依法你們本來就可以這樣做，現在是你把我們嘉義漏掉了，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個是有待處理的……"],["張委員啓楷：我知道法令上你們一直在鑽漏洞，在解釋一個對……"],["陳部長世凱：沒有、沒有在鑽漏洞。"],["張委員啓楷：你明明可以照顧嘉義縣市。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，全國性統一的原則跟規則，我不可能為了嘉義市跟別的地方不一樣，全國性統一的規則跟原則是交通部必須……"],["張委員啓楷：桃園機捷你就可以照顧，但嘉義不能照顧，你是怎樣？"],["陳部長世凱：那是為了桃園機場……"],["張委員啓楷：你剛才說的，那是國家門面，沒有錯，我們這邊也很重要啊！好啦！我們嘉義人會爭到底！"],["陳部長世凱：如果每一個縣市……"],["張委員啓楷：主席又站起來了。"],["陳部長世凱：如果每個縣市都這麼說，交通部該怎麼做？"],["張委員啓楷：如果你認為整個地區的發展都需要，就應該去做，為什麼不能做呢？是不是這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：那您可以修法，讓全國的捷運全部給中央做。"],["張委員啓楷：法令已經有了，現在是你自己用裁量方式……"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得你不要擴大去解釋……"],["張委員啓楷：現在在依法可以的狀況之下，你要照顧嘉義縣市，結果你不照顧，這是現在的癥結嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：國家的重要政策，也是中央跟地方一起處理。"],["張委員啓楷：嘉義市跟嘉義縣的人在生氣什麼？明明你可以做的，行政院長還公開講，結果你現在要吃我、玩我嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：全國一致性原則。"],["張委員啓楷：你是欺騙我們，又欺負我們嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：全國一致性原則，我還是要強調，全國一致性原則。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，主席已經站起來了，我知道時間到了，不要影響後面的委員，不過我還是要跟你說，第一，嘉義人會爭取到底，我們不會被欺負，也不會被欺騙……"],["陳部長世凱：從來沒有欺負過嘉義人。"],["張委員啓楷：第二，剛才說的，法律上都是你可以做的事情，嘉義市民已經在慶祝了，你要落實行政院長講的話，我今天要特別指出來，部長那天就站在院長旁邊，你們的諾言要兌現，不要背信，不要欺負、不要欺騙嘉義人，謝謝！"],["陳部長世凱：絕對不會欺負跟欺騙嘉義人，謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員素月代）：好，謝謝張啓楷委員的質詢。","接下來請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}