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副主委好 次長好今天主題呢 籌建主權基金專法專責專才 要讓任務強化關注就業心智來 先請教總裁是你有宗教信仰嗎"},{"start":45.319,"end":68.877,"text":"我覺得每一個人都要有宗教信仰那你知道台灣社會有兩種非宗教信仰嗎我講給你聽上班族有土地信仰相信房地產只會漲產業界有一個央行信仰相信央行台幣主升不主貶你同意嗎我覺得房地產只會漲央行信仰你同意嗎"},{"start":69.884,"end":94.345,"text":"有這樣的央行信仰嗎沒有啊 因為這個這是明顯的財幣升了嘛你看我們前一波我們才足比啊所以央行信仰呢 被一個修正了我們央行還是會有升有貶的但是呢 過去這個央行信仰在的時間啊我們的產業界 我們的售險界因為這個信仰所以呢 這邊有售險業他們的美金的避險做得不夠"},{"start":95.126,"end":120.618,"text":"所以這連續幾天的升值他們就嘩嘩叫但是我們來看一下我比較驚訝的坦白說這個過程迅速的升值有包有扁但我個人比較傾向是正面肯定因為您提到了房子突暈的突擊這在過去台幣緩慢升值的信仰當中給很多人有可趁之機這次呢突破傳統的想法認為央行呢就算是會升也是慢慢的升"},{"start":121.378,"end":139.094,"text":"結果沒有這樣的情況所以出乎人家意料破除人家的央行信仰我覺得這個值得肯定謝謝非常謝謝這個對我們是一個很大的鼓勵但是我有一個疑惑為什麼你們央行表示台幣升值不影響央行的腳庫盈餘"},{"start":140.748,"end":169.188,"text":"他說報紙上報導台幣升值不會影響央行的損益淨值跟腳庫盈餘這怎麼回事啊我跟委員報告我很簡單的講就是說因為我們匯率就是說匯率會有這樣的一個如果說貶值的時候呢貶值的時候呢我們的現在升值我們貶值的時候呢升值的時候你的盈餘會不會縮水我們就有盈餘對上一上一上一陣子我們到一兆多現在台幣升值你的盈餘會不會縮水"},{"start":170.309,"end":196.769,"text":"不會因為為什麼因為這個那英語怎麼來的不我先來先說我先問你腳褲英語怎麼來的我們腳褲的英語就是我們的收益啊你們的收益怎麼來的主要收益哪裡我們收益的就是投資各個幣別的是嗎我們來看一下各個幣別的啊央行握有美債超過4600多億對不對如果台幣升值了你這樣的一個透過美債持有美債的收益就會縮水嘛是不是這樣子是不是這樣同不同意"},{"start":197.71,"end":202.8,"text":"那今天呢 而且你還不是一次喔國庫金基努啊央行盈餘繳庫連續兩年超過兩千億請問一下盈餘繳庫"},{"start":208.809,"end":231.368,"text":"繳固盈餘是用央行的錢賺來的嗎是啊沒有錯啊是央行的錢喔不是不是外匯存底外匯存底是全民的資產啊對啦沒有錯啊那怎麼是央行的錢是啦因為我們也好既然央行用來賺繳固盈餘的錢是外匯存底持有的美債為主那請問一下你用大家的錢賺的錢繳固盈餘是你央行的經營目標嗎"},{"start":232.689,"end":249.396,"text":"沒有不是你的目標嗎對沒有那很奇怪但是每次我聽你們央行在講的好像把腳褲盈餘神聖不可侵犯沒有如果要維持這個腳褲盈餘沒有財政部有同意嗎沒有財政部市長絕對沒有你們同意嗎財政部市長對沒有沒有以後你們腳褲盈餘變少了財政部不會講話沒有絕對沒有請問市長央行的盈餘腳褲是他的使命嗎"},{"start":261.502,"end":285.336,"text":"據我了解各國的央行幾乎都會把那英語都會攪哭了好來我們看各國的你既然講到來央行總裁看一下這是美國的年準會他說他的使命是有效促進充分就業為什麼請勞動部長來市長來物價穩定和長期利率的市住對央行法寫什麼金融穩定健全銀行幣值的穩定以及經濟發展對"},{"start":287.037,"end":307.579,"text":"有沒有寫到腳步盈餘沒有那請問一下美國的聯準會關心的問題央行有沒有關心就業跟物價你關不關心就業跟物價剛剛財政部長說各國的央行都有做的事情那我想我們台灣的央行也會做你有關心物價跟就業嗎"},{"start":309.881,"end":325.988,"text":"我們的物價是在幣值的穩定那邊啦幣值的穩定因為購買力的問題我們再講啦往下看但是呢我們過去本席也跟很多委員有提過立法院也曾經多次提過要用外匯存底來提撥成立主權基金你還記得吧"},{"start":326.708,"end":349.466,"text":"你是不是堅定的反對對你堅定的反對嗎對那但是呢你現在呢堅決反對但是現在堅持不反對啊沒有你從堅決反對到堅持不反對我們堅決反對是說無償的不用我們是堅決反對但是你不是反對拿外匯存底就對了但是呢你的反對是反對不是反對拿外匯存底為什麼因為"},{"start":350.509,"end":379.425,"text":"因為其他的國家都是用外匯存體做沒有韓國就是嘛 對不對沒有 不是我來問你 韓國是不是用外匯存體我說韓國是用外匯存體委託他對 委託他嘛那委託呢過去堅持反對 現在堅持不反對你堅持什麼沒有沒有沒有第一 主權基金未來不虧央行款 對不對對第二個可以用外匯存體但是要有償使用 對不對"},{"start":381.055,"end":403.289,"text":"第三要有專法這是你的堅持嘛堅持不歸央行款堅持外匯存體要有償使用堅持要有專法是不是這樣子所以我說嘛過去你堅決反對大家誤會你了嘛你不是堅決反對你是堅持但不反對來往下看那現在呢我們財政部說成立主權接近要設定專法來次長為什麼要有專法"},{"start":405.886,"end":412.07,"text":"基本上因為它涉及因為它是一個創富基金那創富基金所以它是在所以要監督"},{"start":414.015,"end":434.053,"text":"他要監督 因為他的風險比較高 有賺有虧嘛所以有賺有虧有風險嘛但不能說賺就是有功 賠就是要法要專法 要依法來管 不是依盈虧賺賠來管專法的目的不是依賺賠盈虧來管 是依法來管理對 依法來管理"},{"start":435.934,"end":446.201,"text":"那這也同意說違不宜由外匯質疑直接無藏不用那請問我們國防外部主委你們這個議題是誰在主管主權基金現在行政院交給誰來研究"},{"start":447.509,"end":465.877,"text":"現在就是國發會嘛目前還沒有定案是有哪一個管機關我們猜應該是國發會管啊對 還是要等行政院決定那假設未來國發會管來 請問一下剛剛我們總裁跟財政部長說的外匯存體要怎麼有償的使用"},{"start":467.183,"end":486.921,"text":"基本上如果按照那個 新加坡的例子的話是他們用發債的方式那是發債 我說外匯存底呢 有啥使用發債 然後呢他們就是外匯存底 有部分是他們是做財務性的操作那他就可以 聽不太懂外匯存底 跟央行拿外匯存底使用要付央行錢 簡單講是這樣"},{"start":488.542,"end":514.835,"text":"就是說其實因為央行裡面它基本上來我請問一下總裁如果要央行要有償使用我想就是說基本上用你的外匯存體你管外匯存體要多少錢新加坡它如果說要用動物我問新加坡我說你說的有償使用使用央行管你的外匯存體要多少錢就是兩個途徑第一個途徑就是說你要買匯你要跟專案銀行買匯這個才有償對不對"},{"start":517.916,"end":539.008,"text":"所以央行可以透過買匯拿到錢就對了所以未來我們就這樣結論了主權基金成立之後他的盈餘他負責繳庫嘛因為怎麼樣本來央行拿去操作美債賺的錢繳庫的錢現在換成主權基金跟你有償使用後他負的錢那請問是你繼續繳庫還是他來繳庫"},{"start":541.34,"end":544.402,"text":"你會不會因為主權基金使用你的外匯存底而"},{"start":561.192,"end":579.513,"text":"有收益要繳庫沒有就是我們的外匯存底主席不要緊張但是他現在就是說他如果說是用新台幣來跟我們買的時候我簡單問你如果未來主席成立動用到你的外匯存底你會收到他付的錢對不對這個是不是你的營運要繳庫你說什麼"},{"start":582.659,"end":604.246,"text":"我已經問了三次了 再說一次你竟然主張外匯存底使用 主均均使用要有償不管他用什麼方式 你會有一筆錢 有一筆收益嘛這個收益就是你要小庫的嘛 對不對那以後這個錢呢 多或少就不那麼重要了嘛至少不是你的使命嘛 你的使命怎麼樣要不要促進充分就業跟副業沒有錯 那請問次長 理事長"},{"start":608.047,"end":635.538,"text":"那你覺得央行是不是應該跟聯儲會一樣關心就業也關心我們的薪資水平呢保委我了解美國的FED他是很關心就業水準特別是失業率是他們的一個重要的衡量指標是那我覺得我想我們的央行他本於他的職權也是會關注這一塊好也會關注期待啦我們下一頁因為時間關係好央行怎麼保持我們新台幣的幣值穩定第一個"},{"start":636.53,"end":652.816,"text":"你要匯率就對美金的匯率對不對這是我們對外國財貨的購買力第二個是我們的CPI我們的物價指數物價不能太上漲不能購買力會下降是不是那請問央行為了維持幣值穩定台幣的主升容易還是主貶容易"},{"start":654.246,"end":665.163,"text":"我想兩個都不太容易啦如果比較起來,你老師問我們兩個的答案比較起來兩個比較容易比較起來的時候呢,我覺得組生比較難組生比較難,我們看一下"},{"start":668.772,"end":691.636,"text":"今天如果美金要貶值你要防止台幣升值你只要釋出台幣就好了嘛你發行國庫券從銀行把新台幣拿出來交給持有外匯的業者增加新台幣供給台幣會不會升值你要怎麼阻止台幣貶值你能夠阻止台幣貶值嗎你阻止台幣貶值要拋售美金啊對不對"},{"start":692.336,"end":706.479,"text":"你的美金如果有限 你拋售的能力有限但是台幣 竹筆權 台幣竹筆在你手上對啦 委員這樣講的話 那我稍微修改我的答案事實上呢 竹升跟竹貶都不大容易啦"},{"start":712.381,"end":726.265,"text":"因為主生容易所以你只要發行新台幣擴大新台幣就好了不加薪結果我們新台幣通過增加的結果我們的什麼薪水沒有增加物價是微微的上漲但是我們的房地產上漲了往下看"},{"start":727.425,"end":734.948,"text":"這是一個很重要的資產負債表央行過去在2017年到2024年我們的資產負債表從2017年的8.5兆到21.1兆我們的明目GDP是從18.6上升到26.5我們央行的資產負債表的占比占我國的GDP從45上升到快80上升了33"},{"start":746.952,"end":762.299,"text":"美國上次的貨幣寬鬆QE1到QE3他從2007到2014他也只不過了他們的聯準會的資產副照表也不過的戰機率的占比呢增加了不到20他目前占比只有25這什麼意思我們往下看"},{"start":763.622,"end":782.549,"text":"台美的貨幣擴張的規模台灣在最近7年來我們的M2貨幣供給量從44.5兆增加到64.5兆增加20兆美國在上市的貨幣寬鬆時期也足夠增加3.5兆美金指標我們看一下台幣跟美國的比較是107.5兆對23.8兆請問一下李市長"},{"start":786.75,"end":791.153,"text":"如果基礎貿易大幅擴張導致物價跟房地產過度膨脹你覺得對我們社信階級有什麼影響"},{"start":809.864,"end":828.2,"text":"就勞工部立場當然物價上漲勞工的實質薪資率就會那麼高那房地產上漲呢我們現在是可以罵這個我要結論了我要結論了主席你已經超過十幾分鐘了好不好你剛剛突然站起來害我嚇一跳精神損失前面兩分鐘超過十幾分鐘了我已經給你十幾分鐘了可以了可以了不要兩分鐘了好兩分鐘就好換接位好不好兩條前面的人繼續我們要做個結論嘛"},{"start":830.081,"end":832.944,"text":"請往前上一張以GDP的規模做比較過去台灣7年比美國規模還大的QE結論我要講出來總裁請你注意一下拜託"},{"start":850.422,"end":864.972,"text":"如果要成立國家主權基金央行法的第二條你的經營的目標請你要考慮放進有效促進充分就業提高薪資水準以及物價穩定可不可以往這個目標去研議你們央行法的修改"},{"start":866.674,"end":870.416,"text":"呃...我覺得是不...呃...不...呃...是不...所以你不擔心就是了...就是了現在請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請�"},{"start":893.672,"end":899.761,"text":"我希望委員尊重夫妻了你超過20分鐘了這個過分了吧站起來說我坐下來了啊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":865,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時23分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請中央銀行楊總裁、國發會高副主委，還有勞動部的李次長。"],["主席：各位長官請。"],["楊總裁金龍：鍾委員早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：總裁好、副主委好、次長好。今天的主題是籌組主權基金專法專責專財，央行任務強化關注就業薪資。先請教總裁，你有宗教信仰嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得每一個人都要有宗教信仰。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，有宗教信仰。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你知道臺灣社會有兩種非宗教信仰嗎？我講給你聽。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：上班族有土地信仰，相信房地產只會漲；產業界有央行信仰，相信央行，臺幣阻升，不阻貶。你同意嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得房地產只會漲……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我說央行信仰，你同意嗎？有這樣的央行信仰嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有啊！因為臺幣阻升……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這次明顯臺幣升了，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啊！你看我們前一波才阻貶。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以央行信仰的部分被修正了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：央行還是會有升有貶。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是過去這個央行信仰還在的時間，我們的產業界、壽險界因為有這個信仰，所以壽險業的美金避險做得不夠，這連續幾天的升值，他們就哇哇叫，但是我們來看一下，我比較驚訝的是，坦白說，這個迅速升值的過程有褒有貶，但我個人比較傾向是正面肯定，因為您提到了防止禿鷹的突擊，這在過去臺幣緩慢升值的信仰當中，給很多人可乘之機，這次突破傳統的想法，認為央行就算會升，也是慢慢地升，結果沒有這樣的情況，所以出乎人家意料，破除人家的央行信仰，我覺得這個值得肯定。"],["楊總裁金龍：非常謝謝，這對我們是一個很大的鼓勵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是我有一個疑惑，為什麼你們央行表示臺幣升值不影響央行的繳庫盈餘？報紙上報導，臺幣升值不會影響央行的損益、淨值跟繳庫盈餘，這是怎麼回事？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告……"],["鍾委員佳濱：簡單講。"],["楊總裁金龍：我很簡單地講，因為我們的匯率會有這樣的一個……如果貶值的時候，我們的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在升值，升值的時候我們的盈餘會不會縮水？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們貶值的時候就會有mark to market，我們就有盈餘。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：前一陣子我們到一兆多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在臺幣升值，你的盈餘會不會縮水？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會，因為這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不會喔？那盈餘怎麼來的？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，我現在先說明……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我先問你，繳庫盈餘怎麼來的？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們繳庫的盈餘就是我們的收益。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們的收益怎麼來的？主要收益在哪裡？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的收益就是投資各個幣別……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嗎？我們來看一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，各個幣別的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：央行握有的美債超過四千六百多億，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果臺幣升值了，你持有美債的收益就會縮水，是不是這樣子？同不同意？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：而且你還不是一次喔，「國庫金雞母！央行盈餘繳庫連續兩年超過2,000億」。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以才……"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，繳庫盈餘是用央行的錢賺來的嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啊，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是央行的錢喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，不是央行的錢……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你不是說外匯存底？"],["楊總裁金龍：外匯存底……"],["鍾委員佳濱：外匯存底是全民的資產。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對嘛，怎麼是央行的錢！"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，因為我們有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，既然央行用來賺繳庫盈餘的錢是外匯存底，持有的以美債為主。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，美債為主。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，你用大家的錢賺繳庫盈餘，是你央行的經營目標嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是你的目標嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那很奇怪！每次我聽你們央行在講，好像繳庫盈餘是神聖不可侵犯的，無論如何要維持這個繳庫盈餘。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有！"],["鍾委員佳濱：財政部同意嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有，我們絕對沒有！"],["鍾委員佳濱：財政部次長，你們同意嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：以後你們繳庫盈餘變少了，財政部不會講話？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，絕對沒有！"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問次長，央行的盈餘繳庫是它的使命嗎？"],["阮次長清華：據我了解，各國的央行幾乎都會把盈餘繳庫。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們看各國的，你既然講到了，來，央行總裁看一下。這是美國的聯準會，它說它的使命是有效促進充分就業。為什麼我請勞動部次長來？物價穩定和長期利率的適度，央行法寫什麼？金融穩定、健全銀行、幣值的穩定以及經濟發展。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有寫到繳庫盈餘？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，美國聯準會關心的問題，央行有沒有關心就業跟物價？你關不關心就業跟物價？"],["楊總裁金龍：第一個，我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛財政部次長說各國央行都有做的事情，我想我們臺灣的央行也會做，你有關心物價跟就業嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，我們的物價是在幣值的穩定那邊，對內對外幣值穩定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：幣值的穩定，是因為購買力的問題，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們後面會講，往下看。過去本席跟很多委員提過，立法院也曾經多次提過，要用外匯存底來提撥成立主權基金，你還記得吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：您是不是堅定地反對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我們堅定反對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你現在說過去是堅決反對，但是現在堅持不反對？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你從堅決反對到堅持不反對。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我們堅決反對是說，無償的撥用我們是堅決反對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是你不是反對外匯存底就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你的反對不是反對拿外匯存底，為什麼？因為其他的國家都是用外匯存底做。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：韓國就是，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，不是！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要問你，韓國是不是用外匯存底？"],["楊總裁金龍：我說韓國是用外匯存底委託它……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以我就一項一項把你的反對釐清，往下看。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：過去堅決反對，現在堅持不反對。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你堅持什麼？這三個，第一，主權基金未來不歸央行管，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第二個，可以用外匯存底，但是要有償使用，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：要有償使用，對啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：第三，要有專法，這是你的堅持嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：堅持不歸央行管，堅持外匯存底要有償使用，堅持要有專法，是不是這樣子？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我說嘛，過去你堅決反對，大家誤會你了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你不是堅決反對，你是堅持，但不反對。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看。現在財政部說成立主權基金要訂立專法，來，次長，為什麼要有專法？"],["阮次長清華：基本上，因為它是一個創富基金，所以它是試圖在國內……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以要有監督嘛，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：對，它要有監督……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要有資金來源的規範嘛。"],["阮次長清華：因為它的風險比較高，有賺有虧。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以有賺有虧，有風險。"],["阮次長清華：對，有風險。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但不能說賺就是有功，賠就是要罰，要有專法、要依法來管，不是依盈虧賺賠來管，是不是這樣子？"],["阮次長清華：對，所以一定要明確。"],["鍾委員佳濱：專法的目的不是依賺賠盈虧來管，是依法來管理？"],["阮次長清華：對，依法來管理，包括……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這也同意說「惟不宜由外匯存底直接無償撥用」，請問我們國發會副主委，這個議題是誰在主管？主權基金現在行政院交給誰來研究？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：現在就是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：國發會嘛？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：目前還沒有定案是由哪一個主管機關……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那為什麼今天你會出現在這裡？我們都猜應該是國發會管啊！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，還是要等行政院決定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，假設未來國發會管，請問一下，剛剛我們總裁跟財政部次長說的，外匯存底要有償撥用，怎麼有償地使用？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上，如果按照新加坡的例子，他們是用發債的方式，然後由……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是發債，我說外匯存底有償使用，發債然後呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：他們外匯存底有一部分是做財務性的操作，它就可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我聽不太懂，跟央行拿外匯存底使用後要付央行錢，簡單講是這樣？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：其實因為央行裡面，它基本上……"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，我請一下總裁。總裁，如果要有償使用……"],["楊總裁金龍：我想基本上新加坡……"],["鍾委員佳濱：用你的外匯存底，你管的外匯存底要不要付錢？"],["楊總裁金龍：新加坡如果說要動用……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我不問新加坡，我是問你說的有償使用央行管理的外匯存底要付錢？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，就是兩個途徑，第一個途徑就是你要買匯，你要跟中央銀行買匯，這個才有償，對不對？"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以買匯，央行可以透過買匯拿到錢就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊！我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，所以未來我們就這樣結論，主權基金成立之後的盈餘它負責繳庫嘛！因為怎麼樣？本來央行拿去操作美債賺的錢、繳庫的錢，現在換成這個主權基金，跟你有償使用後它付的錢，請問是你繼續繳庫還是它來繳庫？"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然啊……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是誰？是誰繳庫？"],["楊總裁金龍：它如果……對，主權基金繳庫啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你要不要繳庫？它也付你們錢啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，因為它已經用新臺幣給我們啦！它給我們新臺幣啦！我們給它……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你會不會因為主權基金使用你的外匯存底有收益而要繳庫？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，就是我們的外匯存底還是會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席不要緊張啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是它現在如果是用新臺幣來跟我們買的時候，我們外幣……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我簡單問你啦，如果未來主權基金成立，動用到你的外匯存底，你會收到它付的錢嘛，對不對？這個是不是你的盈餘要繳庫？"],["楊總裁金龍：你說什麼？"],["鍾委員佳濱：我已經問了三次了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，你說。"],["鍾委員佳濱：再說一次，你既然主張外匯存底使用、主權基金使用要有償……"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：不管它用什麼方式，你會有一筆錢、有一個收益嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個收益就是你要繳庫的嘛，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：以後這個錢多或少就不那麼重要了嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：至少不是你的使命嘛，你的使命怎麼樣？要不要促進充分就業跟物價穩定？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問李次長，你覺得央行是不是應該跟聯準會一樣關心就業，也關心我們的薪資水平呢？"],["李次長健鴻：報告委員，我了解美國的Fed是很關心就業水準，特別是失業率是他們重要的一個衡量指標，我想我們的央行本於它的職權也是會關注這一塊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，也會關注，期待啦！央行怎麼保持我們新臺幣的幣值穩定？第一個，你對美金的匯率，這是我們對外國財貨的購買力；第二個是我們的CPI物價指數，物價不能太上漲，不然購買力會下降，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問央行為了維持幣值穩定，臺幣阻升容易還是阻貶容易？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想兩個都不太容易啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果比較起來呢？你老是回答這種模稜兩可的答案，比較起來哪個比較容易？"],["楊總裁金龍：比較起來我覺得阻升比較難。"],["鍾委員佳濱：阻升比較難，我們看一下，今天如果美金要貶值，你要防止臺幣升值只要釋出臺幣就好了嘛！你發行國庫券從銀行把新臺幣拿出來交給持有外匯的業者增加新臺幣供給，臺幣會不會升值？那你要怎麼阻止臺幣貶值？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，不過我總覺得……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你能夠阻止臺幣貶值嗎？你阻止臺幣貶值，要拋售美金，對不對？你的美金如果有限那拋售能力有限，但是臺幣鑄幣權在你手上，可以拋售臺幣……"],["楊總裁金龍：委員這樣講的話，那我稍微修改我的答案，事實上阻升跟阻貶都不太容易啦！都不太容易！"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是把大家……「裝肖仔」喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：因為相對的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我跟你講阻升容易，所以你只要發行新臺幣、擴大新臺幣就好了，不加薪，結果我們新臺幣通貨增加的結果，我們的薪水沒有增加，物價是微微地上漲，但是我們的房地產上漲了。這是一個很重要的資產負債表，央行過去在2017年到2024年，我們的資產負債表從2017年的8.5兆到21.1兆，我們的名目GDP是從18.6上升到26.5，我們央行資產負債表在我國GDP占比從45%上升到接近80%，上升了33%。美國上次的貨幣寬鬆QE1到QE3，從2007到2014，他們聯準會的資產負債表也不過在GDP的占比增加了不到20%，目前占比只有25%，這什麼意思？"],["主席：時間到了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：臺美貨幣擴張的規模，臺灣最近7年來，我們的M2貨幣供給量從44.5兆增加到64.5兆，增加了20兆；美國在上次貨幣寬鬆時期也不過增加了3.5兆美金。我們看一下指標，臺幣跟美國的比較是107.5%對23.8%，請問一下李次長，您覺得貨幣擴張這麼多……"],["主席：時間超過很多了……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道。"],["主席：時間超過很多了啦！結束啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，快結束了，您覺得有可能的影響是什麼？"],["李次長健鴻：報告委員，你剛剛問的是？"],["主席：時間到了，我們換下一位。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果基礎貨幣大幅擴張導致物價跟房地產過度膨脹，你覺得對我們受薪階級有什麼影響？"],["李次長健鴻：就勞動部立場，物價上漲當然勞工的實質薪資率就會沒有那麼高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那房地產上漲呢？"],["主席：好了，我們下次再問可以嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要結論了，主席。"],["主席：你已經超過十幾分鐘了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你剛剛突然站起來，害我嚇一跳，精神損失給我兩分鐘。"],["主席：你已經超過十幾分鐘了，我已經給你十幾分鐘了，可以了，可以了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：再給我兩分鐘。"],["主席：不要兩分鐘了，可以了，換下一位好不好？","楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，我把它做個結論嘛！"],["主席：結束了好不好？結束了可不可以？"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，我把它做個結論。"],["主席：我已經給你12分鐘了，你還……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你剛剛8分鐘就站起來了。來，我們把它講完……"],["主席：我已經給你12分鐘，你不要這樣……"],["鍾委員佳濱：以GDP的規模做比較，等同臺灣過去7年進行了比美國規模還大的QE。我要講結論，總裁請你注意一下，拜託，如果要成立國家主權基金，央行法第二條經營的目標請你要考慮放進有效促進充分就業、提高薪資水準以及物價穩定方案，可不可以往這個目標去研議你們央行法的修改？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得是不……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你不擔心……"],["主席：好了，結束了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：提高薪資水準以及物價穩定……"],["主席：請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想……"],["鍾委員佳濱：請書面答復好不好？"],["主席：請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。你已經超過20分鐘了。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想委員做的這個建議，我私下來跟委員報告，好不好？"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：我私下跟委員報告，好不好？很detail的報告，好不好？"],["主席：我希望委員尊重主席啦，你超過20分鐘，過分了啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：你剛剛8分鐘就站起來。"],["主席：所以我坐下來了啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你講我就結束了啊！"],["主席：你一定要這樣辯嗎？我站起來你時間到了超過20分鐘，我一直讓你講……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你剛剛站起來啦！"],["主席：站起來後來馬上坐下來啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：你講我就結束了啊！"],["主席：哪裡有結束？再講20分鐘啊！不尊重主席，準備這麼多很好，但是你要考慮其他人嘛，後面的人怎麼辦？好，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}