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你的意思是說我們沒有適度調節嗎我們沒有調節嗎有啊 有啊 我們沒有調節我沒有施壓 這個我一直在澄清所以總裁我可以說30塊現在守住了嗎匯率呢 我只能跟委員報告就是說匯率有升有貶 但目前是供需我可以說30塊叫做"},{"start":83.158,"end":97.512,"text":"楊金龍防線沒有也不會所以長期會怎樣你的判斷是什麼匯率還是供需決定有升有貶升的時候全世界都知道川普在玩關稅遊戲關稅遊戲這個玩下去你覺得長期會怎麼樣"},{"start":103.496,"end":117.861,"text":"我覺得美國他有很多的金融工具他有關稅 他有美元 他最大的還有買債所以我才會說現在目前他是已經針對關稅來所以沒有報費率的問題沒有 沒有"},{"start":123.943,"end":138.214,"text":"你認為他沒有弄匯率的問題沒有沒有總裁很簡單我想問個簡單的問題是在台美貿易談判正在如火如荼的進行中你覺得匯率會不會是貿易談判的一個障礙或者是該不該在裡面不會不會"},{"start":139.355,"end":142.098,"text":"那你認為台美之間匯率不是問題也不是貿易障礙的壁壘也沒有任何問題所以不需要跟美國談我跟委員報告就是說剛好就是這個關稅"},{"start":156.271,"end":157.211,"text":"我跟委員報告啦我們一直在強調就是說"},{"start":177.937,"end":199.592,"text":"我們跟美國財政部的溝通你們跟美國財政部的溝通很好但是跟美國貿易代表處的溝通不怎麼好我們談我跟委員報告這個他每年都是會兩次固定兩次我知道啦現在你們很厲害但是我說現在台美貿易談判對我個人來說我認為不可能不談"},{"start":200.413,"end":211.424,"text":"也必然會提到只是有沒有公開如果真的要當成我們談判的籌碼之一可以但是要讓國人安心就算是要犧牲掉匯率也要讓國人清理得很好所以我們希望維持台幣的穩定至少讓國人知道它的趨勢跟將來應該怎麼樣的避險"},{"start":226.998,"end":249.671,"text":"台幣動態穩定才是國人安心的保障第二個部分現在台幣升值有很多人受損出口商但是有幾個人應該很高興的就是進口商尤其是我們最高興的應該是幾家國營事業吧我們台電中油買的東西都是用"},{"start":250.871,"end":263.717,"text":"新台幣換美金去買這樣的話他們的虧損是不是可以減少一點對啦也沒有錯所以他會不會是你在匯率調整時候你們出手的好幫手啊變成你的互惠國家隊"},{"start":266.336,"end":292.411,"text":"因為他如果繼續換美金的話他也許可以幫你穩定一些台幣的匯率因為他一年買兩千億的天然氣啊對啦就是說如果說需求跟總裁我的意思是說當匯率在調整的時候我們有人受害有人受賄受賄的產業如果是國營事業他應該要成為他將來他也可能有一天貶值的時候他要花更多的錢去買美金一樣的他應該要做避險"},{"start":293.571,"end":312.823,"text":"這也是我覺得央行跟整個政府團隊都應該要好好一起來規劃在這個升值跟貶值的過程中我們的國營事業既然在這中間有受到衝擊也有受到優惠這些東西應該是總裁應該考慮找他們當你的互惠國家隊"},{"start":315.264,"end":329.371,"text":"他拿去幫你多買點美金你就不用花那麼多錢那個委員是這個建議是非常好啦是他們現在油價要跌啦台電的虧損可能也會彌補啦好接下去我們重點是我希望"},{"start":330.231,"end":351.985,"text":"如果長期的穩定台幣不管它是多少錢都應該很清楚在過程裡面讓所有的廠商有時間去適應甚至有時間政府的補貼可以到位否則像這樣一天兩天就突然急升的情況下我覺得央行還是必須要不管人家要不要罵你出手該有匯率你還是要有一定的作為"},{"start":352.805,"end":375.55,"text":"否則會讓大家擔心說就看著他生然後全世界都知道在生但是我們自己沒有任何一點就看看他在生事實上我們也有適當的感覺你有動啦但是沒人看到大家就覺得是不是你沒動好我還是希望不要變成是被質疑或被讓大家自己去面對這件事情很重要接下來我們有請國發會的"},{"start":382.076,"end":399,"text":"主權基金是民眾黨的政見而且在上個會期我們提出法案上一屆吳欣怡委員也提出法案所以現在突然間本來"},{"start":400.512,"end":418.784,"text":"行政院給我們的答案就是我們已經有了然後央行繼續把外匯存體委員會投資比例提高就好了而且國發基金跟台商公司也有了怎麼現在又冒出來支持所謂的主權基金我想問一下就是百年大計還是現在只是應付立法院或者是應付關稅的緩兵之計"},{"start":421.802,"end":431.349,"text":"我想那個院長其實他在院長是隨口說說嗎不是他是說衡量現在國家的財力今年1月你給我的報告還是沒有必要"},{"start":433.374,"end":460.022,"text":"應該是說其實這個議題我們一直都有在演繹當中所以三四個月突然間大變化沒有是因為因為現在的國家的財力產業發展還有國際有需要了突然間變得有需要也不是就是卓院長因為其實也是因應另外一個立法委員他在質詢的時候那卓院長其實有說我實施了一年了也沒有聽到你們正確的回答好直接在那個等一下總裁我們民眾黨的版本是主權基金運用"},{"start":462.153,"end":482.741,"text":"所謂的你的外匯存底我知道你一直抵死不從但是外匯存底裡面我們的版本是大概抓10%也就是500多億請問總裁從你的理解裡面你認為主權基金它應該有的規模大概是多少這個我沒有辦法回答你們預計的規模是多少國發會呢"},{"start":490.444,"end":506.528,"text":"目前 如果前十大的話 如果前十大的話大概都會有大概有幾千億不過他們每個組員已經開始的時候我們有五百億的話大概排名第三十名啦但是以你們之前告訴我說台山公司的部分他只有四百億台幣啦"},{"start":508.449,"end":532.328,"text":"因為台山基金不是家族權基金的所以我的意思是說你們之前跟我說台山已經有啦我怕今天也有啦其實如果我們要救資金的來源的確要利益專法所以我希望我們民眾黨的版本我們希望跟你們討論我們放在中央銀行法裡面修因為我們認為專法就叫做患不自已而且專法可能就是以拖待變的藉口"},{"start":532.868,"end":542.853,"text":"中央銀行不想要自己管但是借他的錢沒意見但是借他的錢拿出來用的話他要有償嘛 總裁要有償嘛 不可以無償借用嘛你要有償 那請問如果我們真的要撥這些錢出來的話國發會還有央行你們對這筆錢要用舉債的方式發債嗎"},{"start":554.861,"end":579.99,"text":"對啦 我們要發債來跟你借錢就對了那個就是說他因為主權財經財是分五的規模多少規模多少基金撥用的方式基金還款的方式你們有答案了嗎國發會央行總裁已經講了啦他不會無償借你錢啦你是要發債嗎"},{"start":581.03,"end":607.341,"text":"委員其實各界還有不同的想法跟看法所以你們只是隨口說說我們要凝聚社會的共識那我們社會的共識我們這個版本已經提出來三四年了很多的內容都已經公開很久了可以參考我們的版本可以討論但是之前說不行的理由現在不存在了就以後不要再拿出來鬼扯了好嗎是因為其實也"},{"start":608.534,"end":628.162,"text":"情勢變了所以主權基金是政府考慮的內容但是不能去否定大家對於主權基金這樣子的規劃我們會集各界的意見我們來通盤考量所以我還是講這是百年大計不要做成緩兵之計也就是說主權基金是一個國家長期發展很重要的"},{"start":629.343,"end":629.363,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1150,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時45分）謝謝主席，我先請總裁。"],["主席：總裁請。"],["楊總裁金龍：黃委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，這兩天大家對臺幣的匯率都非常關心，你也講了非常多話，這次升值大家沒有辦法承擔的原因是它升得太快，你可以同意嗎？因為短短幾天內就大幅升值，然後我們沒有看到央行出手，所以大家對央行有一些疑慮。我想問一下，原因找到了沒？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們也不是沒有出手啦，是有啦，我剛剛……"],["黃委員珊珊：原因找到了沒？"],["楊總裁金龍：原因最主要的還是他的預期心理，認為臺幣會轉強嘛。"],["黃委員珊珊：有人是禿鷹嘛，然後美國沒有施壓嘛……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：然後臺灣央行也沒有介入嘛，答案是這樣，是嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：所謂的「沒有介入」，你的意思是說我們沒有適度調節嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：你們沒有調整嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：有啊！有，我們有調節。"],["黃委員珊珊：有，好，所以大幅升值……"],["楊總裁金龍：美國沒有施壓，這個我一直在澄清，那……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以，總裁，我可以說30塊現在守住了嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：有關於匯率，我只能跟委員報告，匯率有升有貶，但目前是供需……"],["黃委員珊珊：可不可以說30塊叫做楊金龍防線？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，也不會，也不會啦，因為我還會……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有？好，所以新臺幣匯率長期會怎樣，你的判斷是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：匯率還是由供需決定，有升也有貶，升的時候升，貶的時候……"],["黃委員珊珊：供需決定？所以，總裁，全世界都知道川普在玩關稅遊戲啦……"],["楊總裁金龍：是是是。"],["黃委員珊珊：關稅遊戲玩下去，你覺得長期會怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得美國他要這個關稅政策……"],["黃委員珊珊：他有很多的金融工具，他有關稅，他有美元，他最大的還有美債……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我才會說現在目前，他已經針對關稅來……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以沒有保匯率的問題？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：你認為他沒有弄匯率的問題，但是……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，很簡單，我想問個簡單的問題，臺美貿易談判正在如火如荼的進行中，你覺得匯率會不會是貿易談判的一個障礙？或者是該不該在裡面談？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會、不會、不會，我還是就是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：你認為臺美之間匯率不是問題，也不是貿易障礙的壁壘，也沒有任何問題，所以不需要跟美國談？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，我跟委員報告，剛好就是關稅的談判……"],["黃委員珊珊：就是我們從來也沒有跟美國談過匯率的問題？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，要強調的一點就是……"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，我的時間很有限啦！我就直接說……"],["楊總裁金龍：是是是。好。"],["黃委員珊珊：你認不認為在貿易談判的時候，匯率臺灣跟美國要不要談，或者是我們要不要參與，或者是你央行要不要派員嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我們一直在強調的就是，我們跟美國財政部的溝通非常良好……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們跟美國財政部的溝通很好……"],["楊總裁金龍：非常良好，所以我們談……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是跟美國貿易代表處的溝通不怎麼好？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們談……跟委員報告，它每年都會固定兩次，談的議題……"],["黃委員珊珊：我知道啦！總裁，你們很厲害，但是我說現在臺美貿易談判，對我個人來說，我認為不可能不談，也必然會提到，只是有沒有公開，如果真的要當成我們談判的籌碼之一，可以但是要讓國人安心。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有。對對，所以我才……"],["黃委員珊珊：就算要犧牲掉匯率，也要讓國人清楚地知道。"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦！不會啦！所以我才會一開始的時候就說……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們希望維持臺幣的穩定，至少讓國人知道它的趨勢跟將來應該怎麼樣避險，這不是只有央行的責任，也是國家的責任。"],["楊總裁金龍：讓新臺幣動態穩定，這是我們的職責……"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，穩定的臺幣才是讓國人安心的保障。"],["楊總裁金龍：是是是，沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個部分，現在臺幣升值有很多人就是出口商受損，但是有幾個人應該很高興的就是進口商……"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦、是啦。"],["黃委員珊珊：尤其最高興的應該是我們幾家國營事業吧，我們台電、中油買的東西都是用新臺幣換美金去買，這樣的話，他們的虧損是不是可以減少一點？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以它會不會是你在匯率調整的時候，你們出手的好幫手，變成你的護匯國家隊？因為它如果繼續換美金的話，也許可以幫你穩定住一些臺幣的匯率，因為它一年買2,000億的天然氣。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，就是說如果需求跟供給……"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，我的意思是說，當匯率在調整的時候，我們有人受害，有人受惠，受惠的產業如果是國營事業，它應該要成為……將來可能有一天貶值的時候，它要花更多的錢去買美金，一樣的，它應該要做避險。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對。"],["黃委員珊珊：這也是我覺得央行跟整個政府團隊都應該要好好一起來規劃的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是。"],["黃委員珊珊：在這個升值跟貶值的過程中，我們的國營事業在這中間有受到衝擊也有受到優惠，這些東西應該是……總裁應該考慮找他們當你的護匯國家隊。"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，我跟委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：讓它去幫你多買點美金，你就不用花那麼多錢。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員這個建議是非常好啦。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，他們現在油價要跌啦，台電的虧損可能也會彌補啦。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來我們的重點是，我希望如果長期地穩定臺幣，不管它是多少錢，都應該很清楚，在過程裡面讓所有廠商有時間去適應，甚至有時間讓政府的補貼可以到位，否則像這樣一天、兩天就突然急升的情況下，我覺得央行還是必須有作為，不管人家要不要罵你出手干預匯率，你還是要有一定的作為，否則會讓大家擔心說，就看著它升，然後全世界都知道在升，但是我們自己沒有任何應變。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有啦！沒有說就看它在升，事實上我們也有做適當的調節。"],["黃委員珊珊：你有動啦，但是沒人看到，大家就覺得是不是你沒動？我還是希望不要變成被質疑或是讓大家自己去面對，這件事情很重要。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來我們也請國發會。"],["主席：副主委。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁你也要在，因為是談主權基金。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：兩位，我想主權基金是民眾黨的政見，而且在上個會期我們提出法案，上一屆吳欣盈委員也提出法案，現在突然間……本來行政院給我們的答案就是我們已經有了，然後央行繼續把外匯存底委外投資比例提高就好了，而且國發基金跟台杉公司也有了，怎麼現在又冒出來支持所謂的主權基金？我想問一下，這是百年大計，還是現在只是應付立法院，或者是應付關稅的緩兵之計？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想院長其實上次他在立法院有表示……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長是隨口說說嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：不是，他是說衡量現在國家的財力……"],["黃委員珊珊：今年1月你給我的報告還是沒有必要欸。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：應該是說其實這個議題我們一直都有在研議當中。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以三、四個月突然間大變化？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：沒有，是因為現在國家的財力、產業發展，還有國際局勢……"],["黃委員珊珊：有需要了？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：突然間變得有需要？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：也不是，其實也是因應另外一個立法委員在質詢的時候，卓院長有作這樣的表示。"],["黃委員珊珊：我質詢1年了，也沒有聽到你們正確的回答。等一下，總裁，我們民眾黨的版本是主權基金，運用所謂的你的外匯存底，我知道你一直抵死不從，但是外匯存底裡面，我們的版本是大概抓10%，也就是五百多億，請問總裁，就你的理解裡面，你認為主權基金應該有的規模大概是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我沒辦法回答，我沒辦法回答委員的……"],["黃委員珊珊：副主委，你們預計的規模是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我就……"],["黃委員珊珊：國發會呢？你們的構想是多少？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：如果前十大的話大概有幾千億，不過，他們每個主權基金開始的時候金額都不一定。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們如果是500億的話，大概排名第30名啦，但是以你們之前告訴我說台杉公司的部分，它只有400億臺幣，連10億都不到啦。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：因為台杉基金不是國家主權基金的……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以我的意思是說，你們之前跟我說，台杉已經有啦！國發基金已經有啦！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：報告委員，其實如果我們要就資金的來源，的確要立專法來做才有可能執行。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以對於我們民眾黨的版本，我們希望跟你們討論，我們是放在中央銀行法裡面修，因為我們認為專法就叫做緩不濟急，而且專法可能就是以拖待變的藉口。中央銀行不想要自己管，借它的錢沒意見，但是借它的錢拿出來用的話要有償，總裁，要有償，不能無償借用嘛，你要有償，那請問如果我們真的要撥這些錢出來的話，國發會還有央行，你們對這筆錢要用舉債的方式發債嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，所以就是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們要發債來跟你借錢就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為主權財富基金是政府的……"],["黃委員珊珊：規模多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該是跟中央銀行的資產負債表要分開……"],["黃委員珊珊：規模多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：規模多少這個是……"],["黃委員珊珊：基金撥用的方式、基金還款的方式，你們有答案了嗎？國發會，央行總裁已經講了，他不會無償借你錢，你是要發債嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員，其實各界還有不同的想法跟看法，所以我們會凝聚社會的共識。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你們只是隨口說說？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：不是、不是，我們要凝聚社會的共識。"],["黃委員珊珊：社會的共識？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們這個版本已經提出來三、四年了，很多內容都已經公開很久了，你可以參考我們的版本，可以討論，但是之前說不行的理由現在不存在了，以後就不要再拿出來鬼扯了，好嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，因為情勢也不同了。"],["黃委員珊珊：情勢變了，所以主權基金是政府考慮的內容，但是不能去否定大家對於主權基金這樣子的規劃。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們會彙集各界的意見，我們來通盤考量。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我還是要講，這是百年大計，不要做成緩兵之計，也就是說，主權基金是一個國家長期發展很重要的來源，尤其是其他國家已經有成功的案例。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，我想院長也表示……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們怎麼樣讓它不要像國發基金一樣，投資一些亂七八糟、血本無歸的也就算了，還投資到一些犯罪集團。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我覺得委員這樣說有點不太公平，對國發基金來說。"],["黃委員珊珊：有一些狀況，所以要更完整的管理，尤其是由央行來做把關，我們是比較放心的，好嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員的質詢，下一位請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}