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請主席長主席長我看到這個在總質詢的時候這個我們院長有說啦115年的總運算是依照新的財化法編列沒錯吧你們說財化法要提釋憲對不對"},{"start":29.963,"end":51.848,"text":"有 已經提了嗎有 已經提出來了就對了是不是會照新的來編 政院的發言人李慧芝有說新版財化法裡面 地方的政府財源會大幅增加所以會研議優先減劣地方補助款對不對對不起 你戴口罩大聲一點 我聽不太見"},{"start":56.75,"end":63.141,"text":"優先檢列地方補助款優先檢列地方補助款是一般性補助款還是計畫性補助款"},{"start":64.985,"end":87.84,"text":"兩個都有兩個都會減劣就對了是不是但是我們新版的採訪法第30條第三項有規定啊你知道嗎我們有這個規定吧中央政府給予地方政府之一般性補助款向金額不得少於修正實行前一年預算編列數啊意思說一般性補助款你們是不能減的啊但是一般性補助款有很多種啊什麼意思"},{"start":90.699,"end":112.794,"text":"一般性補助款的項目非常的多對,我不管一般性補助款有幾種項目但採訪法新的我們通過這個採訪法有明文規定不得少於修正施行前一年的預算編列數所以你不要遵守我們會遵守所以一般性補助款你不能減你可以減計劃型補助我們可以減項目用其他的來彌補減什麼"},{"start":115.417,"end":142.136,"text":"項目不同的 因為它有很多不同的項目項目沒關係 但是金額 當然這說的是金額金額會維持金額會照這個 照這個心法 那好那現在因為在 現在時程來講現在在編概算了嘛正常是4月到5月吧 對吧我這個中央政府總預算的編成一個時間表現在是4月到5月那請問這個中央對我們地方各地方的統籌分配稅款的額度什麼時候會出來"},{"start":143.553,"end":157.841,"text":"什麼時候出來地方才好做他們一百一十五年地方的這個編列一些計畫什麼來做什麼時候會出來因為現在已經已經在邊蓋算了四月到五月在邊蓋算了這是財政部的業務請財政部來說明財政部市長什麼時候會出來市長"},{"start":163.632,"end":191.238,"text":"就對於這個各縣市的統籌分配款稅的那個額度什麼時候會出來因為第一五年你們在編了嘛地方也要開始那個嘛 準備對 因為現在有兩個問題啦因為現在就是說今年剛好就是因為出口旺盛所以呢 營業稅退稅特別多那另外呢 所留稅我們結算申報延後一個月所以目前啦 我們的裁員是不足的所以我們現在有找這個地方政府來開會"},{"start":192.378,"end":207.105,"text":"所以我們目前這個有關這個統籌分稅款這部分現在是目前是有一點打折啦但是等到這個結算申報結束以後有裁員之後沒關係那是什麼時候幾月份可以編出來"},{"start":209.13,"end":224.746,"text":"幾月 幾月 最慢是八月份啦八月喔 所以八月才可以算最慢 最慢 最慢半應該說這樣 八月以前你會給這個答案啦我相信應該會早一點啦好 八月以前會給這個地方 各個地方因為這個地方也要編他們的其他各方面要給地方一點時間"},{"start":228.788,"end":250.497,"text":"那請問主計總署你們有發行給各個縣市還有直轄政府說114年中央對地方政府一般性補助款5月到12月的分配數改為未分配數嘛對不對就是這個因為你們現在在財務法在做一些有一些總預算啦總預算也在做救濟嘛對不對是不是總預算也在做救濟嘛也在申請這個市縣是不是"},{"start":252.178,"end":274.198,"text":"以我們基本來講 本來一般性補助款5到12月本來分配數是10億多現在改成5億多其他改為未分配數那你說要等救濟結果而定是等釋憲 救濟結果是釋憲嗎對等釋憲 如果今年底都沒辦法釋憲呢沒有結果咧這筆錢是要不要分 要不要發出來"},{"start":274.957,"end":277.518,"text":"那到時候再看 要三減哪一項 因為現在要三減636還沒有確認"},{"start":298.991,"end":317.241,"text":"不是啊 你這樣子這個地方怎麼施政呢現在5月到12月要怎麼施政你都給一半 對不對那到底地方不就整個政務會停頓嗎整個都會影響啊所以你什麼時候 有一個時間吧如果到年底都沒有咧所以也是會給是不是 你也是會給"},{"start":319.685,"end":347.257,"text":"也不一定會給,也有可能變零就對啊有可能變零因為如果說到時候要刪減的話,那就會刪減所以有可能,所以他的本來是50%也可能會變成零嘛那你們如果有這樣方向打算也要早一點讓地方政府知道啊不然地方政府到底他現在5月到12月要怎麼施政嘛是,我們會盡量,盡量這個那早一點嘛,好那接著,謝謝主委長,接著我們請這個總裁辛苦了,總裁"},{"start":348.857,"end":350.498,"text":"所以我一開始我的聲明就是說因為我口才不好所以呢會有結痂的現象"},{"start":375.409,"end":380.691,"text":"所以也不是說因為我結結巴巴才會言不可忠而且又說我就是因為我不善於說謊才會這樣結結巴巴好像就是說我就是說謊"},{"start":390.515,"end":413.941,"text":"沒有啦 沒有說你說謊啦你直接叭叭嘛 就是你不想說謊 但是又不知道怎麼回答嘛有提問你也沒有辦法回答沒關係啦 不正義這個齁 來星哥 我要問你實質的問題齁這個 剛剛也很多人問過啦 也沒有所謂的澎懷蘭防線啦也沒有所謂楊金總防線 也沒有什麼利守30塊大關啦齁這些防線都沒有啦齁那但是 你也知道現在很多這個"},{"start":415.47,"end":423.237,"text":"商人出貨商很辛苦啊對你很嚴重的挑戰那這個台幣升值是不是台美的談判議題呢這個我們也問了我們也問了那這個這個卓榮泰院長有說未來不敢動我問他的時候他說"},{"start":430.864,"end":455.803,"text":"你看我們在中央是說沒有觸及這個議題啦卓院長是說我那天問他說沒有啦現在說未來不一定啦好那你也說你們沒有參加台美金剛工作小組對沒有你們沒有美國也沒有要求你們嘛對沒有那所以你可以承諾匯率不會是台美談判議題嗎不是我現在又要回過頭來要講就是說事實上我們跟美國財政部"},{"start":456.684,"end":463.305,"text":"因為我們固定是兩次但是我們大部分就是說它的匯率報告出來之前會有一次所以它一年是兩個匯率報告以前它都是在四月中以前一個是在十月中以前"},{"start":484.069,"end":486.351,"text":"所以我要跟委員報告就是說事實上我們一直在強調就是說我們跟美國財政部溝通良好我的意思是說什麼就是說我們在這個議題方面我們都互相的信任"},{"start":501.28,"end":503.162,"text":"第二點我們隨時有什麼問題要跟他請教的時候我們都隨時都可以熱線不斷沒有問題有熱線就對了中美是跟他們的總裁所以我們說溝通良好就是這個意思"},{"start":518.556,"end":547.049,"text":"但是那個 我們的總統也好 我們的院長也好都說這次談判是沒有談到匯率吧是沒有啊你也說沒有嘛 對那那個 南韓那個央行的那個總裁是說謊的嗎我就說 我就說這個前面你認識他嗎我認識他我認識他你認識他啊我認識他所以 所以 但他說美國有他沒有說什麼施壓啦他只有說是不一定是會這樣但是有談到這一題所以 所以"},{"start":547.489,"end":575.062,"text":"所以我應該比較相信你啦不過我跟委員報告啦就是說所以南韓這個央行總裁可能說的不是實話啊我不曉得這些只有一個人說的是實話嘛因為他有說台灣啊他說美國和日本、台灣、馬來西亞也有談到嘛他不知道所以要嘛就是耐心的這種說法要嘛就是南韓這個央行總裁說法因為他對我們台灣他不曉得啊"},{"start":576.763,"end":589.352,"text":"我現在 我也不曉得說他們滿欄有沒有跟他談 我也不曉得啊那他有提到啊所以我就覺得奇怪反正要嘛就戴總統說謊 要嘛就央行我覺得誰說謊 誰不說謊你沒有辦法判斷喔 我也沒有辦法判斷 沒關係喔不過我要強調的就是說 我要講的實話我講的是實話"},{"start":600.44,"end":611.588,"text":"你講的是實話你講的一定是實話不是要不結結巴巴的時候總裁我想請教你一題最後一題來上一次半年一次匯率報告上次是11月5號繼續被列為匯率超重國的觀察名單請問這一次你預測會繼續列還是會升級你說什麼這一次因為匯率報告美國財政部那個"},{"start":627.279,"end":636.325,"text":"如果說據他這三個三項標準的話呢我們還是觀察名單啦所以你覺得應該還是會再觀察名單啦是啦是啦好 謝謝總裁好 謝謝陳益智委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1571,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（12時42分）謝謝主席，我們讓央行總裁休息一下，請主計長。"],["主席：主計長，請。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主計長，我看到院長在總質詢的時候說115年總預算是依照新財劃法編列的嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們說針對財劃法要提釋憲對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：已經提了嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["陳委員玉珍：啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["陳委員玉珍：已經提出來了是不是？好，會照新的來編？但政院發言人李慧芝說，在新版財劃法裡面，地方政府的財源會大幅增加，所以會研議優先減列地方補助款，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：對不起，因為你戴口罩，大聲一點，否則我聽不太見。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，你可以戴著啦！但大聲一點，所以會優先減列地方補助款喔！你們說優先減列地方補助款的時候，所說的是一般性補助款還是計畫型補助款？"],["陳主計長淑姿：兩個都有。"],["陳委員玉珍：兩個都會減列是不是？但是新版財劃法第三十條第三項有規定啊！你知道有這個規定吧！中央政府給予地方政府之一般性補助款項金額不得少於修正實行前一年預算編列數啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：意思是一般性補助款你們是不能減的啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是一般性補助款有很多種啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：啊？什麼意思？"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般性補助款的項目非常多。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，但我不管一般性補助款有幾種項目啦！新的、我們通過的這個財劃法有明文規定啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們也會維持……"],["陳委員玉珍：不得少於修正施行前一年的預算編列數嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你們要遵守嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們會遵守啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：所以一般性補助款不能減啊！你們可以減計畫型補助款啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們可以減項目，用其他的來彌補啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：減什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：項目不同的，因為有很多不同項目……"],["陳委員玉珍：項目沒關係，問題是金額啊！這裡說的當然是金額啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：金額我們會維持啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：金額會維持。"],["陳委員玉珍：金額會照新版財劃法規定？那好。","以時程來講，現在在編概算了嘛！正常是四月到五月，對吧？我說中央政府總預算編成的時間表，現在是四月到五月，請問中央對各地方的統籌分配稅款額度什麼時候會出來？知道什麼時候出來，地方才好做他們115年的編列計畫啊！什麼時候會出來？現在是四月到五月，應該在編概算了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：那是財政部的業務，要請財政部說明。"],["陳委員玉珍：財政部？次長，什麼時候會出來？各縣市統籌分配稅款的額度什麼時候會出來？因為115年的概算你們在編了，那地方也要開始準備。"],["阮次長清華：現在有兩個問題，就是今年剛好出口旺盛，所以營業稅退稅特別多；另外，所得稅結算申報也延後1個月，所以目前財源是不足的。我們現在找地方政府來開會，有關統籌分配稅款這部分目前是有一點打折啦！但是等到結算申報結束、有財源之後，我們會全部籌足。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，那是什麼時候？幾月份可以編出來？"],["阮次長清華：統籌……"],["陳委員玉珍：幾月？幾月？"],["阮次長清華：最慢是八月份啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：八月喔？"],["阮次長清華：最慢是八月。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以八月才可以……"],["阮次長清華：最慢。"],["陳委員玉珍：喔！最慢八月？所以應該這樣說，你們八月以前會給這個檔案啦！"],["阮次長清華：對，但是我相信應該會早一點。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，八月以前會給各個地方？因為各個地方也要編他們自己的計畫。"],["阮次長清華：對，他們也要編。"],["陳委員玉珍：也要給地方一點時間。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：八月以前？謝謝次長。","請問主計總處，你們發函給各個縣市還有直轄市政府，說114年中央政府對地方政府一般性補助款中五月到十二月的分配數改為未分配數，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是因為你們現在正對財劃法……是總預算啦！你們針對總預算也在做一些救濟，對不對？是不是？針對總預算也在走救濟嘛！在聲請釋憲是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：以我們金門來講，本來五到十二月的一般性補助款分配數是十億多，現在改成五億多，其他改為未分配數。那你說要視救濟結果而定，救濟結果是指釋憲嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：等釋憲？如果到今年底都沒辦法釋憲、沒有結果呢？這筆錢要不要分？要不要發出來？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這筆……"],["陳委員玉珍：以金門來講，從10億變成5億，那你說要等救濟結果，如果救濟到年底都沒有釋憲、都沒有結果呢？原來10億變5億這筆錢分不分？"],["陳主計長淑姿：到時候再看，看……"],["陳委員玉珍：什麼叫「再看」？"],["陳主計長淑姿：看要刪減哪一項，因為現在要刪減的636億還沒有確認嘛！"],["陳委員玉珍：你這樣叫地方怎麼施政呢？現在五月到十二月要怎麼施政？你給一半，那地方政務不就會停頓嗎？整個都會受影響啊！所以什麼時候？總有個時間吧？如果到年底都沒有呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們會儘快……"],["陳委員玉珍：也是會給，是不是？你們是不是會給？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不一定。"],["陳委員玉珍：也不一定會給？也可能變成零就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：有可能變成零？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果到時候要刪減的話，就會刪減。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以也有可能？本來是50%，也可能變成零嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：那你們如果有這樣的方向、打算，也要早一點讓地方政府知道啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：不然地方政府五月到十二月到底要怎麼施政嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們會儘量……"],["陳委員玉珍：要早一點嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝主計長。","接著請總裁。"],["主席：請總裁。"],["陳委員玉珍：我看那天記者訪問、問問題的時候，您結結巴巴，今天應該不會啦！我都是講國語啦！只是如果要說比較言不由衷的話，就會「哇、哇、哇……」。"],["楊總裁金龍：我一開始的聲明就是說我口才不好，所以會有結巴的現象，也不是因為我結結巴巴就代表言不由衷。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是言不由衷喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得不要這樣……"],["陳委員玉珍：你不好意思說謊啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：而且外界又說就是因為我不善於說謊，才會這樣結結巴巴，好像認定我就是說謊。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有啦！沒有說你說謊啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我才會……"],["陳委員玉珍：你結結巴巴就是因為不想說謊，但是又不知道怎麼回答嘛！有提問也沒辦法回答。"],["楊總裁金龍：也不是，我只是說我的口才不好。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係啦！不爭議這個，辛苦了，我要問你實質的問題。剛剛也有很多人問過有沒有所謂彭淮南防線、有沒有所謂楊金龍防線、有沒有什麼力守30塊大關等等，你說所有防線都沒有啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是你也知道現在很多出口商很辛苦，面臨很嚴重的挑戰。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：對於臺幣升值是不是臺美談判的議題，我們也問了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：卓榮泰院長說未來不……賴總統是說沒有觸及這個議題，我那天問卓院長，卓院長也說沒有，但未來不一定。你也說你們沒有參加臺美經貿工作小組嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們沒有，而美國也沒有要求你們嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你可以承諾匯率不會是臺美談判議題嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，我現在又要回過頭來講，事實上，我們跟美國財政部……"],["陳委員玉珍：有兩次對不對？我剛剛聽到，所以我也想問你這一題，是哪兩次？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，只是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：每年兩次嘛！請問分別大概是什麼時候？"],["楊總裁金龍：每年至少兩次，固定是兩次，但是……"],["陳委員玉珍：幾月？"],["楊總裁金龍：大部分是在匯率報告出來之前會有一次。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那是去年十一月？"],["楊總裁金龍：而一年會有兩個匯率報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：那你們大概都固定在幾月跟美國討論？"],["楊總裁金龍：以前都是在四月中以前，另一次是在十月中以前。"],["陳委員玉珍：四月中跟十月中？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，但是我也要跟委員報告，我們一直強調，事實上我們跟美國財政部溝通良好，我的意思是什麼？就是在這個議題方面，我們都互相信任，這是第一點。第二點，我們若有什麼問題要跟他們請教，隨時都可以……"],["陳委員玉珍：可以熱線不斷啦！有問題就用熱線就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，就是這樣子。"],["陳委員玉珍：是跟美國的總裁嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們說的溝通良好就是這個意思啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：好，但是我們的總統也好、我們的院長也好，都說這次談判是沒有談到匯率的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：你也說沒有嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：那是南韓央行總裁說謊嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我就不知道啊！我之前就說……"],["陳委員玉珍：你認識他嗎？因為你們有時候會開會。"],["楊總裁金龍：我認識他。"],["陳委員玉珍：你認識他喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：我認識他。"],["陳委員玉珍：但他說美國有，他沒有說什麼施壓啦！他只說不一定是要升或降，但是有談到這個議題，我應該會比較相信你啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我跟委員報告，就是……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以南韓這位央行總裁所說的可能不是實話？"],["楊總裁金龍：我不曉得……"],["陳委員玉珍：這些人當中只有一個人說的是實話嘛！因為他有說到臺灣啊！他說美國和日本、臺灣、馬來西亞也有談到嘛！而我們的總統說沒有。"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦！因為他不知道我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：要麼就是賴清德總統說謊，要麼就是南韓央行總裁說謊。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，因為他對於我們臺灣的情況不曉得啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：所以是他信口開河喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也不曉得南韓有沒有跟美國談，我也不曉得啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：但他有提到啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我覺得很奇怪啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係啦！反正要麼就是賴總統說謊，要麼就是南韓央行這邊……"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得誰說謊或誰不說謊……"],["陳委員玉珍：你沒有辦法判斷喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我沒辦法判斷。"],["陳委員玉珍：我也沒有辦法判斷，不過沒關係，我們用歷史記錄。我再請問一題……"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我要強調的就是我講的是實話！我講的是實話。"],["陳委員玉珍：你講的是實話？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：你講的一定是實話喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：只要是不結結巴巴的時候。","總裁，我想請教你一題，是最後一題。美國半年發布一次匯率報告，上一次是11月5號嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：我國繼續被列為匯率操縱國的觀察名單，請問你預測這一次會繼續列還是會升級？因為也快要公布了。"],["楊總裁金龍：你說什麼？"],["陳委員玉珍：這一次匯率報告，就是美國財政部半年發布一次那個報告。"],["楊總裁金龍：如果據他們這3項標準的話，我們還是在觀察名單啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你覺得應該還是會在觀察名單？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝總裁。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉，邱志偉委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}