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主寫的單位是經濟部還是組織總署根文報告我們裡面載明的是經濟部為主管單位經濟部主導這個條例草案的百分之多少"},{"start":68.301,"end":88.395,"text":"其實我們是負責整個草案條文內容那相關的這些各部會的預算的編列的部分是院這邊會來協調好來這個次長跟主席長我也想請教當時我們寫了這個條例特別條例主要是為了因應美中跟美中台的這所謂的關稅的問題要對台灣的產業跟對台灣的整體經濟造成的衝擊來做因應所以我們設置了這個所謂的特別條例好"},{"start":98.722,"end":114.216,"text":"那後來因為大家覺得原來的預算規模太小所以行政院長就擴大了整體的預算規模來到4100億那4100億裡頭有包含了關稅因應的大概是930億國土任性有1500億跟整個社會支持的1670億左右大概是這樣的一個規模"},{"start":124.605,"end":143.972,"text":"所以我們要再來談到剛剛的幾位委員的詢問其實我看到把這個版本的名稱整理起來我覺得蠻好玩的其實我從小到大念中文我突然發現我們現在的委員們的提案或者是黨團的提案那個中文我看不太懂"},{"start":145.285,"end":174.136,"text":"比如說國民黨的提案是因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例我第一次聽到消費要韌性就是要開錢一直開錢堅持開錢那種就對了是不是這樣意思我不知道因為這個條例是這樣寫那民眾黨呢就直接把國土安全把它去掉就直接寫韌性這個還稍微可以理解喔所以這個條文名稱呢就讓我覺得非常詭異"},{"start":175.492,"end":193.779,"text":"但是條文內容更好玩了來 條文內容包括剛剛我的上一位非常資深的委員的提問內容我第一次坐在這裡很認真的聽完他的所有的質詢我只有四個字叫瞠目結舌什麼叫瞠目結舌國民黨的黨版把台電的一千億的撥補把它砍掉民眾黨也把台電的撥補把它砍掉"},{"start":203.612,"end":219.824,"text":"那台電的撥補砍掉要台電做兩件事情一個是全面重啟核電要蓋六座的機組第二個承諾到2028年以前不能漲電價這個台電董事長你也可以上來"},{"start":221.922,"end":247.16,"text":"剛剛的談話昨天通過的核管法處理的不是只有核三的研議喔是全部廚藝的要再運轉喔所以會有核一核二的再運轉跟核三的研議要處理如果依照剛剛講的賴委員說我給你一兆八千億啊你要不要 叫何康你為什麼不要他給你一兆八千億"},{"start":249.724,"end":265.191,"text":"哪有這種事情然後一兆八千億核能安全一兆八千億是投資的我要自己賺回來啊是啊 我先不要說那個核能安全誰負責 美國負責他最少講了超過20次美國負責台灣的核能安全叫美國來幫你負責我真的只有四個字 瞠目結舌"},{"start":276.363,"end":297.04,"text":"核能安全是我們自己要負的責任你要蓋一個機組或者是一個機組要研議當然是自己要負責他一直跟你講美國負責美國誰來跟你負責賴士寶說了算嗎我也不懂我們兩個禮拜前到美國去跟美國的商務部有進行會談進行見面"},{"start":299.468,"end":309.071,"text":"我們也很清楚問他SMR在美國的商轉的情況如何美國商務部很清楚告訴我們2030之前都不可能商轉好 你一直在講核能研議在運轉我就簡單問一個問題核廢料怎麼處理你核一除役了機組拆掉了你怎麼樣再運轉核廢料放哪裡核廢料要怎麼處理"},{"start":328.989,"end":341.838,"text":"當台電的供電系統的韌性不就是一個國土安全的一環嗎你們同意我的看法嗎澳元那個確實就是電網的韌性確實是國土安全的一環"},{"start":343.71,"end":360.355,"text":"國土安全 能源的供給我們一直在講你要撥補給這些中小企業要撥補給這些產業受到的影響當你沒有能源安全當你沒有這個電網的韌性的時候你撥補這些有什麼用呢好 那台電的這個一千億的撥補被講成這樣 然後又要你們承諾到2028之前都不能漲電價"},{"start":372.298,"end":391.509,"text":"又不讓你賺錢又不讓你漲電價政府又不能撥補然後又要叫你再花一兆八千億去蓋六座的核能電廠然後核廢料還不知道放哪裡我第一次看到這樣子不負責任的在野黨然後自己以為自己非常偉大我真的不太懂所以"},{"start":396.348,"end":421.475,"text":"我實在不知道這個所謂的特別條例裡面 他們一直講台電的撥補不要 國土任性不要然後普發現金我剛剛講那個請國防部來 那個台電可以先回座來經濟部次長可以先回座 國防部跟海委會國土任性 國土的安全 國家防衛的安全"},{"start":423.208,"end":435.366,"text":"會比普發現金更為不足道嗎請兩位回答我我的價值觀是生命安全的保障是無價之寶它更重要"},{"start":436.3,"end":453.429,"text":"所以我要跟所有的鄉親報告請了解這個更重要我們要保護大家的生命安全另外委員追加預算是假議題因為依據預算法第79條要編追加預算總共有四個條件第一個依法律增加業務"},{"start":454.229,"end":473.278,"text":"第二依法律增設新機關第三因重大事故軍費超過法定預算第四依有關法律應補列所以還是需要法律換句話說這個法律如果過我們編出來的預算也可以叫做特別預算也可以叫做追加預算一定要有法律所以那是假議題"},{"start":474.38,"end":500.948,"text":"好 這個管主委以前我們都叫你管媽 管委員你非常清楚立法院的運作國防部次長您大概也非常的清楚在整個國家安全上面台灣所遭受到的問題次長 這個是國防部未來的這個美國的次長Kobe他講說他希望台灣的軍費要編列接近GDP的10%"},{"start":503.188,"end":531.935,"text":"我們做不做得到報告委員我想這個每一個國家在訴說這個GDP的時候事實上每個國家財政預渡都不一樣以我們國家為例我們還要視我們國家財政預渡來看我們的國防預算所以目前來講我們總統已經講了我們的GDP如果我們國防預算到3%我們是非常感謝國人的支持我們朝這方面努力國防預算這個東西是一個防衛決心的一個"},{"start":533.123,"end":546.817,"text":"最佳的一個表現所以這一點我想美國他在這個DOD我也才到這個美國的國防部裡面去他特別強調如果說我們把這樣子的一個國防預算提高到3%的話"},{"start":548.419,"end":577.68,"text":"足以證明你們自我防衛的決心讓全世界能夠看到那這是非常重要所以我們在原來的預算裡頭還想盡辦法要到3%在特別條例在國土安全任性的這個部分我們只編列1500億我都還嫌太少我每次看到海委會售出來的那些影片照片我們的海巡兄弟這麼辛苦"},{"start":579.577,"end":604.939,"text":"結果設備是不足的熱顯相儀也不足夜視系統也沒有海下的系統也沒有誰來幫他們的生命安全做保障我們的軍官兄弟們起飛戰機起飛降落在各個地方保衛台灣疆域的安全一千五百億的這個國土安全任性的預算是遠遠不足的"},{"start":606.042,"end":634.054,"text":"其實我覺得我們應該要把我們自己捍衛台灣的決心展現出來喔所以我是全力支持國防部跟海巡單位在這個預算的編列上面我其實覺得如果可以的話我希望把預算做一些調整這個1500億其實是應該要適度的增加喔那我想在這個特別條例上面"},{"start":635.134,"end":651.77,"text":"我們很期待對於國家安全的保障我們其實應該多做一點事啊是的國家安全保障至少不是只有說你去跟美國買軍購你有很多的國防產業供應鏈其實也是經濟的一環啊是的"},{"start":655.093,"end":679.511,"text":"這個都是環環相扣的喔所以我在期待這件事情我其實覺得應該站在一個更理性的角度來看待站在一個對於國家防衛對於國家整體經濟振興的角度來看待我會全力的支持這個條例的通過那我也希望在國防軍備的預算上面能夠來適度的增加喔 以上可以給我30秒嗎好來我覺得這個"},{"start":684.265,"end":702.87,"text":"國防一算真的需要大家支持國軍官兵每天面對會之地的衝突我憑良講我做一個老兵五十年我看到我們的學弟學妹不辭勞苦在海上在空中"},{"start":704.836,"end":715.647,"text":"請問國人給他支持是什麼就是國防預算的增加讓他在海上應付灰災地災衝突的時候他無憂無慮他能有信心去面對我們這樣威脅"},{"start":719.425,"end":737.614,"text":"1500億只不過是一個表徵但重點是國人對我們的支持是非常重要的所以我很感慨講這個事情希望大家在這次的急迫性的建案來講灰色地帶的建案是可以馬上降低我們國軍官兵應對灰色地帶衝突的負荷"},{"start":739.043,"end":767.221,"text":"這個是對我們國家安全是一個很好的保障希望大家給予我們支持謝謝委員這個次長我剛剛聽你這樣講我其實眼淚都快掉下來齁全世界都已經在發展無人載具喔結果我們在這個預算上面編列了無人機的預算還被砍掉我真的對台灣的整體安全感到擔憂啦那也對於我們的國軍兄弟保家衛國的這樣的一個行為深深感到敬佩喔謝謝"},{"start":769.268,"end":769.29,"text":"好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":640,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（10時15分）謝謝主席。我還是要懇請主席能稍微控制一下時間，剛剛海委會主委報告時你就一直按鈴，其他委員講話你就不按鈴，亂問一通。我請主計長跟經濟部次長。"],["主席：請主計長、何次長。"],["邱委員議瑩：待會請海委會跟國防部，請兩個單位準備一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：我想請教兩位，「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」主責、主寫的單位是經濟部還是主計總處？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們裡面載明的是經濟部為主管單位。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以經濟部為主管單位，經濟部主導這個條例草案的百分之多少？"],["何次長晉滄：其實我們是負責整個草案條文內容，相關各部會的預算編列，這部分是院會來協調。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，次長跟主計長，我想請教，當時我們寫了這個特別條例，主要是為了因應美中跟美中臺的關稅問題，對臺灣產業跟對臺灣整體經濟造成的衝擊來做因應，所以我們設置了這個特別條例，後來因為大家覺得原來的預算規模太小，所以行政院長就擴大了整體預算規模來到4,100億，4,100億包含關稅因應大概是930億、國土韌性有1,500億，及整個社會支持的1,670億左右，大概是這樣一個規模。","再來談到剛剛幾位委員的詢問，其實把這個版本的名稱整理起來，我覺得蠻好玩的，我從小到大念中文，我突然發現現在委員們的提案，或者是黨團的提案，那個中文我看不太懂。比如說，國民黨的提案是「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例」，我第一次聽到消費要有韌性，就是要花錢、一直花錢、堅持花錢就對了，是不是這樣的意思？我不知道，因為這個條例是這樣寫。民眾黨直接把「國土安全」去掉，就直接寫「韌性」，這個還稍微可以理解，所以這個條文名稱就讓我覺得非常詭異，但是條文內容更好玩了。","條文內容包括剛剛我上一位非常資深委員的提問內容，我第一次坐在這裡很認真的聽完他所有質詢，我只有四個字叫「瞠目結舌」，什麼叫瞠目結舌？國民黨的黨版把台電1,000億的撥補砍掉，民眾黨也把台電的撥補砍掉；台電的撥補砍掉，要台電做兩件事情，一個是全面重啟核電，要蓋六座的機組。第二個，承諾到2028年以前不能漲電價。台電董事長也可以上來，剛剛的談話、昨天通過的核管法處理的不是只有核三的延役，而是全部除役的要再運轉，所以會有核一、核二再運轉，跟核三的延役要處理。如果依照剛剛講的，賴委員說給你1兆8,000億，你要不要？這麼「好康」你為什麼不要？他給你1兆8,000億，哪有這種事情？然後1兆8,000億核能安全……"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，1兆8,000億是投資，我要自己賺回來啊！"],["邱委員議瑩：是啊，我先不要說那個。核能安全誰負責？美國負責。他最少講超過二十次美國負責，臺灣的核能安全叫美國幫你負責，我真的只有四個字「瞠目結舌」，核能安全是我們自己要負的責任，你要蓋一個機組，或者一個機組要延役，當然是自己要負責，他一直跟你講美國負責，美國誰來跟你負責？賴士葆說了算嗎？我也不懂。","我們兩個禮拜前到美國跟美國商務部進行會談、見面，我們也很清楚問他，SMR在美國商轉的情況如何？美國商務部很清楚告訴我們2030年之前都不可能商轉。你一直在講核能延役再運轉，我就簡單問一個問題，核廢料怎麼處理？核一除役了，機組拆掉了，你怎麼再運轉？核廢料要放哪裡？核廢料要怎麼處理？台電供電系統的韌性，不就是國土安全的一環嗎？你們同意我的看法嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，電網的韌性確實是國土安全的一環。"],["邱委員議瑩：國土安全、能源的供給，我們一直在講，你要撥補給這些受到影響的中小企業、產業，當你沒有能源安全、沒有電網韌性的時候，撥補這些有什麼用呢？台電1,000億的撥補被講成這樣，又要你們承諾到2028年前都不能漲電價，又不讓你賺錢、又不讓你漲電價、政府又不能撥補，然後又要叫你再花1兆8,000億去蓋六座核能電廠，核廢料還不知道放哪裡。我第一次看到這樣不負責任的在野黨，自己以為自己非常偉大，我真的不太懂。他們所謂的特別條例裡面，一直講不要台電的撥補，不要國土韌性，然後普發現金。","我請國防部上來，台電、經濟部次長可以先回座。國防部跟海委會，國土韌性、國土安全、國家防衛的安全會比普發現金更微不足道嗎？請兩位回答我。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我的價值觀是生命安全的保障是無價之寶，它更重要，所以我要跟所有鄉親報告，請了解這個更重要，我們要保護大家的生命安全。另外委員，追加預算是假議題，因為依據預算法第七十九條要編追加預算，總共有四個條件，第一，依法律增加業務；第二，依法律增設新機關；第三，因重大事故經費超過法定預算；第四，依有關法律應補列，所以還是需要法律，換句話說，這個法律如果過了，我們編出來的預算也可以叫特別預算，也可以叫追加預算，一定要有法律，所以那是假議題。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，管主委，以前我們都叫你管媽、管委員，你非常清楚立法院的運作。國防部副部長，您大概也非常清楚臺灣在整個國家安全上面所遭受到的問題。副部長，未來美國國防部次長Colby表示，希望臺灣的軍費要編列接近GDP的10%，我們做不做的到？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，每一個國家在訴說GDP的時候，事實上每一個國家的財政裕度都不一樣，以我們國家為例，我們還要視國家財政裕度來看我們的國防預算，日前總統已經講了，國防預算要達到GDP的3%，我們非常感謝國人的支持，我們會朝這方面努力，國防預算是一個防衛決心的最佳表現……"],["邱委員議瑩：展現。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：委員也才到美國國防部，美國DoD特別強調，如果我們把國防預算提高到3%的話，足以證明我們自我防衛的決心，讓全世界能夠看到。"],["邱委員議瑩：沒錯嘛！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：讓全世界能夠看到，這是非常重要，而且……"],["邱委員議瑩：沒錯嘛！所以我們在原來的預算裡還想盡辦法要到3%，特別條例在國土安全韌性的部分只編列1,500億，我都還嫌太少了。我每次看到海委會秀出來的那些影片、照片，我們的海巡兄弟這麼辛苦，結果設備是不足的，熱顯像儀也不足，夜視系統也沒有，海下的系統也沒有，誰來幫他們的生命安全做保障？我們軍官兄弟們的戰機起飛、降落，在各個地方保衛臺灣疆域安全，1,500億的國土安全韌性預算是遠遠不足的。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的，遠遠不足。"],["邱委員議瑩：其實我覺得我們應該要把我們自己捍衛臺灣的決心展現出來，所以我是全力支持國防部和海巡單位在這個預算的編列上面，如果可以的話，我希望把預算做一些調整。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員支持。"],["邱委員議瑩：1,500億其實是應該要適度的增加。在特別條例上面，我們很期待對於國家安全的保障，其實應該多做一點事，國家安全保障不是只有去跟美國買軍購，有很多的國防產業供應鏈其實也是經濟的一環，這個都是環環相扣的，所以我期待這件事情應該站在一個更理性的角度來看待，站在一個對於國家防衛、國家整體經濟振興的角度來看待，我會全力的支持這個條例的通過，我也希望在國防軍備預算上面能夠來適度的增加。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，可以給我30秒嗎？"],["邱委員議瑩：好。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我覺得國防預算真的需要大家支持，國軍官兵每天面對灰色地帶衝突，憑良心講，我作為一個老兵50年，我看到我們的學弟學妹不辭勞苦在海上、在空中，請問國人給他的支持是什麼？就是國防預算的增加，讓他在海上應付灰色地帶衝突的時候無憂無慮，他能有信心去面對這樣的威脅，1,500億只不過是一個表徵，但重點是國人對我們的支持是非常重要的。所以我很感慨講這個事情，希望大家在這次的急迫性建案，灰色地帶的建案是可以馬上降低我們國軍官兵應對灰色地帶衝突的負荷，這對我們國家安全是一個很好的保障，希望大家給予我們支持，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員議瑩：次長，我剛剛聽你這樣講，我其實眼淚都快掉下來，全世界都已經在發展無人載具，結果我們在預算上面編列的無人機預算還被砍掉，我真的對臺灣的整體安全感到擔憂，也對於我們國軍兄弟保家衛國的行為深深感到敬佩，謝謝。"],["主席：現在請林德福委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","王正旭","陳玉珍","邱鎮軍","顏寬恒","翁曉玲","蘇清泉","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；\n二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案；三、\n本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案；四、本院委\n員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；五、本院\n委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144901_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}